With a bit of bias I have to say the Derry championship is probably the best in Ulster, Armagh are a one team county and Tyrone don't seem to have much of a buzz about their championship. What about the other teams in Ulster, do St Galls or Cavan Gaels face much opposition?
Although my beloved Lavey are no longer feared by the rest of the county..I still enjoy it with one of 4 or 5 teams capable of winning John Mc Laughlin and 2 or 3 more capable of causing an upset.
Quote from: Oakleafer93 on April 28, 2009, 11:54:42 PM
With a bit of bias I have to say the Derry championship is probably the best in Ulster, Armagh are a one team county and Tyrone don't seem to have much of a buzz about their championship. What about the other teams in Ulster, do St Galls or Cavan Gaels face much opposition?
Although my beloved Lavey are no longer feared by the rest of the county..I still enjoy it with one of 4 or 5 teams capable of winning John Mc Laughlin and 2 or 3 more capable of causing an upset.
Think thats a bit generous to be fair. Its between Ballinderry, Slaughtneil and Glenullin with the Shamrocks the clear favourites of the 3. Maybe Screen, Bellaghy or Dungiven could push for an upset though.
Right enough, Derry has a high number of top tier clubs who would be dangerous in Ulster, think the ulster league results of recent years show this
Quote from: hardstation on April 29, 2009, 12:06:08 AM
What do you mean by 'the best'?
Most competitive and has the most chance of the winners winniner Ulster or All Ireland
Quote from: hardstation on April 29, 2009, 12:07:19 AM
Junior championship in Antrim and Armagh.
'Tis two questions really.
You can take it however way you like.
This an Ulster only thread?
Quote from: moysider on April 29, 2009, 12:24:39 AM
This an Ulster only thread?
No its a vehicle for Oakleafer to beat a Derry drum.
you aint worthy...
my personal opinion fro club championships i've seen most recently
The Dublin senior championship seems to be the most competitive
2 all-ireland winners in the past two seasons
attract's alot of big names from outside the county-The premiership of sorts!
not too sure about the quality or maybe entertainment of the football on view but highly competitive
My own county championship in louth is highly recognised in the county and has alot of passion with a genuine buzz about the place
error ridden games and fierce local rivalries make the football entertaining but not of the highest order
i would liken the standard to down football with exception to Mayobridge
Meath Championship games in pairc tailtinn make for excellent nights viewing
with emphasis on pure football 'catch and kick' with most sides having one quality forward on view and usually delivers
highly emotional as meath people and the fans involved seem to be...with good natured tempers boiling over on numerous occasions but all good natured (except the recent flare up) The standard of refereeing meath has a lot to do with the free flowing football and lack of bullshit
Quote from: moysider on April 29, 2009, 12:24:39 AM
This an Ulster only thread?
No everyones welcome, but I am just unfamiliar with other provinces
Quote from: whiskeysteve on April 29, 2009, 12:25:49 AM
Quote from: moysider on April 29, 2009, 12:24:39 AM
This an Ulster only thread?
No its a vehicle for Oakleafer to beat a Derry drum.
you aint worthy...
Excuse me? I ain't beating no Derry drum. I have already pointed out my club aren't one of those in the mix up.
QuoteArmagh are a one team county
But there is great interest in who comes second. :D
Quote from: hardstation on April 29, 2009, 12:35:52 AM
Why did you pick Derry? Because you're from there?
No because Derry is a highly competitive championship and I am by in large a neutral when it comes to crunch time. This year I think, Ballinderry, Slaughtneil, Glenullin, Dungiven or Bellaghy could win with up and coming teams like Coleraine or Screen causing an upset.
Quote from: Oakleafer93 on April 29, 2009, 12:42:08 AM
Quote from: hardstation on April 29, 2009, 12:35:52 AM
Why did you pick Derry? Because you're from there?
No because Derry is a highly competitive championship and I am by in large a neutral when it comes to crunch time. This year I think, Ballinderry, Slaughtneil, Glenullin, Dungiven or Bellaghy could win with up and coming teams like Coleraine or Screen causing an upset.
:D I wish :D
If Coleraine win Derry this season, I will post a nude picture of myself.
Quote from: whiskeysteve on April 29, 2009, 12:58:52 AM
Quote from: Oakleafer93 on April 29, 2009, 12:42:08 AM
Quote from: hardstation on April 29, 2009, 12:35:52 AM
Why did you pick Derry? Because you're from there?
No because Derry is a highly competitive championship and I am by in large a neutral when it comes to crunch time. This year I think, Ballinderry, Slaughtneil, Glenullin, Dungiven or Bellaghy could win with up and coming teams like Coleraine or Screen causing an upset.
:D I wish :D
If Coleraine win Derry this season, I will post a nude picture of myself.
I don't mean win it, I mean knock out a favourite.
wouldn't agree on the Dublin SFC -dominated by 4/5 premiership clubs . Standard is pretty mediocre fellas. The 4/5 teams only have 2 really competitive games now- ie against each other. The Leinster club championship is pretty poor . Any of the 4/5 above big clubs if they win dublin -would have to play really badly to lose in it, in its current state. So then you're in an all-ireland semi final.
The long run in suits the big clubs in Dublin. Often would train like professional teams for the all-ireland semi and final. Twice a day 3-4 days a week. Double sessions at weekends, training camps away - a carte blanche from the county board not to play any club fixtures till after paddys day. its not a fair refelction of the standard. Any of you in Dublin from tonight to sunday should drop into parnell to see some of it and watch the influx of foreign stars that is ruining the club game here.
Would explain our county record and Leinsters in general. I would say in counties like Kerry and Tyrone the standard is more even and as a result they get more indigenous players of a very good standard from which to pick a county side. We have a shockingly limited pool of high quality Gaelic Footballers.
Derry probably have the strongest clubs in their SFC though it doesn't mean its the best championship as Ballinderry will probably be clear favs to win it again this year. Same with Down (mayobridge), Armagh (cross) Antrim (galls) and Cavan (gaels). Tyrone would be interesting as there are a few teams in with a shout, would it be the same for donegal and monaghan? Here's hoping for victory in 09 to slaughtneil kilcoo pearse ogs cargin and mullahoran!
Surely the Mayo club championship is well up there...
Crossmolina
Ballina
knockmore
Ballaghadereen
Quote from: INDIANA on April 29, 2009, 09:05:00 AM
wouldn't agree on the Dublin SFC -dominated by 4/5 premiership clubs . Standard is pretty mediocre fellas. The 4/5 teams only have 2 really competitive games now- ie against each other. The Leinster club championship is pretty poor . Any of the 4/5 above big clubs if they win dublin -would have to play really badly to lose in it, in its current state. So then you're in an all-ireland semi final.
The long run in suits the big clubs in Dublin. Often would train like professional teams for the all-ireland semi and final. Twice a day 3-4 days a week. Double sessions at weekends, training camps away - a carte blanche from the county board not to play any club fixtures till after paddys day. its not a fair refelction of the standard. Any of you in Dublin from tonight to sunday should drop into parnell to see some of it and watch the influx of foreign stars that is ruining the club game here.
Would explain our county record and Leinsters in general. I would say in counties like Kerry and Tyrone the standard is more even and as a result they get more indigenous players of a very good standard from which to pick a county side. We have a shockingly limited pool of high quality Gaelic Footballers.
Agree 100% - it was of a far higher standard 10-15 years ago - now all the top clubs backboned by imports
You're probably going to see a third winner in three years this year with a Meath and Offaly players forming the spine of their defence.
Jasus cut her a bit of slack here lads. I know what she means and she is right in what she says, Derry's senior football championship would have the highest number of quality teams in the competition than any other county in Ulster...Isn't that right Oakleafer!!! ;)
Thats right Illdecide, seems I can't do nothing right on here because I'm a girl! Ah well I'll soilder on!! lol
Derry is widely regarded as the best Ulster Championship in terms of overall quality.
Ballinderry leading the pack with a few teams capable of putting it up to them.
Aye Derry seems to be the best in Ulster. The Tyrone championship has been run off in a few weeks in recent years with the All Ireland runs and has devalued it somewhat. Is like a three week tournament in October... such is the price of winning Sam. Is very high price. I think it was '03 Omagh played semi final draw, replay and lost final in seven days. Crazy. Last year winners Clonoe had no players on Tyrone panel which probably helped them a lot. In In 2006 after losing to Laois, county players abandoned their clubs in week leading up to club championship to play in U$A.
For obsession with Sam Maguire Cup and a big afternoon in Croke Park in September, is it worth paying the price to club championship? I think not.
Derry people love their club football more than their county, whereas Tyrone would probably be the opposite ?
I think the variation in winners in the Derry championship makes it interesting. In my opinion Ballinderry have the best team year in year out but the pattern over the past number of years is as follows:
2002 - Ballinderry
2003 - Loup
2004 - Slaughtneil
2005 - Bellaghy
2006 - Ballinderry
2007 - Glenullin
2008 - Ballinderry
I like the fact that there are a few teams that can win it even though on paper Ballinderry should be walking it!
The Derry c'ship would be the most hotly contested IMHO, but at the detriment of the countys chances of winning SAM
Quote from: full back on April 29, 2009, 09:55:36 AM
The Derry c'ship would be the most hotly contested IMHO, but at the detriment of the countys chances of winning SAM
I would agree with that sentiment
Galway and mayo championships seem to have a spread of teams capable of winning it, Cork and Kerry are now more competetive than ever - with Nemo in cork no longer as dominant I believe
dublin well a couple of clubs are full of imports - maybe its no coincidence that my own (current) club have fallen down the pecking order now that they have a 'home grown' side.
Heffo I'd hope ANYONE other than the team you are tipping will win the championship !
Quote from: Katchit on April 29, 2009, 09:46:02 AM
Derry people love their club football more than their county, whereas Tyrone would probably be the opposite ?
This is what many think but is a bit of a generalisation. There was such an obsession in Tyrone to win Sam before 2003 and as much as we enjoy winning it again the hype never really took off last year until the end of the summer. Few Tyrone supporters went to the Dublin quarter final and I know many who are far more into club football which was destroyed last year as Tyrone went through the summer. County football caters for about 35 players here while hundreds of club players wait for their championship to conclude. Ain't the Tyrone players fault but is how it is.
As mentioned earlier, the Tyrone SFC is more frequently being run off in bog weather. Its of as high a standard as Derry's, I don't know where this general concensus that Derry's SFC is better than others comes from - too many people reading Martin McHughs column in the Irish Star. Armaghs championship is looked at lighty because of Crossmaglens dominance, butthey have been run closer in their county campaign at times over the past few years than they have in the Ulster. Tyrones championship is open every year, with the like of Killyclogher, Carrickmore, Dromore, Errigal Ciaran and Clonoe winning it over the past few years with other teams such as Omagh and Coalisland reaching finals.
The fact that the Derry Championship is so competitive is largely due to the fact that the clubs with any serious chance of winning it are located so close to each other. Ballinderry, Loup, Bellaghy, Slaughtneil are all in the south Derry area. Local rivalry/ parish pride fuels the competition. Only Glenullin and Dungiven in North Derry are ever seriously considered as contenders, and they are so close to south Derry that the footballing talent has overspilled into their areas. ;)
If derry is so good then why is that reflected at county level? From what I've seen lads its good but its not that good. Balinderry are still a fair bit ahead of the rest year on year. The armagh county championship is not great- bar cross maybe dromintee or harps aren't bad. Forget the rest. Tyrone's is good - good even standard across 8-9 teams. kerry's is terrific -god even standard across 10 clubs- forget about divsionals.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 29, 2009, 10:10:04 AM
Cork and Kerry are now more competetive than ever - with Nemo in cork no longer as dominant I believe
Not sure about that, Nemo won their 4th in-a-row last year, and 7th this decade. They have never been so dominant in their history!
Quote from: INDIANA on April 29, 2009, 11:16:50 AM
If derry is so good then why is that reflected at county level?
The fact that it's so competitive is a detriment to the county team which has already been emphasised previously.
And Derry are one considered in the top dozen county teams in the country, not that I really associate a stong club league with that of the county team.
Quote from: INDIANA on April 29, 2009, 11:16:50 AM
If derry is so good then why is that reflected at county level? From what I've seen lads its good but its not that good. Balinderry are still a fair bit ahead of the rest year on year. The armagh county championship is not great- bar cross maybe dromintee or harps aren't bad. Forget the rest. Tyrone's is good - good even standard across 8-9 teams. kerry's is terrific -god even standard across 10 clubs- forget about divsionals.
Very good summary there IMO. Perception of the Derry club scene by a lot of Derry folk mirrors that of the County team, its not as good as they think it is.
I know it's 'only' the Ulster League and it's not a completely fair reflection but still useful in knowing that Derry teams won half the groups and came second in half the groups.
Group A
1st Ballinascreen
2nd Newbridge (Division 2)
Group B
1st Ballinderry
3rd Kilrea
Group C
2nd Bellaghy
Group E
1st Lavey (Division 2)
Glenuillin
Group F
2nd Loup
6th Greenlough (Division 3)
Quote from: Katchit on April 29, 2009, 11:49:13 AM
I know it's 'only' the Ulster League and it's not a completely fair reflection but still useful in knowing that Derry teams won half the groups and came second in half the groups.
Group A
1st Ballinascreen
2nd Newbridge (Division 2)
Group B
1st Ballinderry
3rd Kilrea
Group C
2nd Bellaghy
Group E
1st Lavey (Division 2)
Glenuillin
Group F
2nd Loup
6th Greenlough (Division 3)
You're right - it's only the Ulster league.
I dont know why people are talking about county teams
A good club championship doesnt mean anything when it comes to the county team
Quote from: orangeman on April 29, 2009, 12:19:26 PM
Quote from: Katchit on April 29, 2009, 11:49:13 AM
I know it's 'only' the Ulster League and it's not a completely fair reflection but still useful in knowing that Derry teams won half the groups and came second in half the groups.
Group A
1st Ballinascreen
2nd Newbridge (Division 2)
Group B
1st Ballinderry
3rd Kilrea
Group C
2nd Bellaghy
Group E
1st Lavey (Division 2)
Glenuillin
Group F
2nd Loup
6th Greenlough (Division 3)
You're right - it's only the Ulster league.
I know I'm right I don't need confirmation of it, thanks for your enlightening input.
Quote from: SidelineKick on April 29, 2009, 09:48:21 AM
I think the variation in winners in the Derry championship makes it interesting. In my opinion Ballinderry have the best team year in year out but the pattern over the past number of years is as follows:
2002 - Ballinderry
2003 - Loup
2004 - Slaughtneil
2005 - Bellaghy
2006 - Ballinderry
2007 - Glenullin
2008 - Ballinderry
I like the fact that there are a few teams that can win it even though on paper Ballinderry should be walking it!
Why startwith2002 Sideline
2000Bellaghy
2002 Ballinderry
2003 Loup
2004 Slaughtneil
2005 Bellaghy
2006Ballinderry
2007 Glenullin
2008 Ballinderry
can't see ballinderry winning it in 2009. Too many long termn injuries to key playewrs and they aren't allowed to win it two years in a riow!
Quote from: seamusthebard on April 29, 2009, 01:14:44 PM
Quote from: SidelineKick on April 29, 2009, 09:48:21 AM
I think the variation in winners in the Derry championship makes it interesting. In my opinion Ballinderry have the best team year in year out but the pattern over the past number of years is as follows:
2002 - Ballinderry
2003 - Loup
2004 - Slaughtneil
2005 - Bellaghy
2006 - Ballinderry
2007 - Glenullin
2008 - Ballinderry
I like the fact that there are a few teams that can win it even though on paper Ballinderry should be walking it!
Why startwith2002 Sideline
2000Bellaghy
2002 Ballinderry
2003 Loup
2004 Slaughtneil
2005 Bellaghy
2006Ballinderry
2007 Glenullin
2008 Ballinderry
can't see ballinderry winning it in 2009. Too many long termn injuries to key playewrs and they aren't allowed to win it two years in a riow!
i'm actually surprised he didn't just start at 2003! Is the omission of 2001 just to prove your two in a row theory?
Quote from: seamusthebard on April 29, 2009, 01:14:44 PM
Quote from: SidelineKick on April 29, 2009, 09:48:21 AM
I think the variation in winners in the Derry championship makes it interesting. In my opinion Ballinderry have the best team year in year out but the pattern over the past number of years is as follows:
2002 - Ballinderry
2003 - Loup
2004 - Slaughtneil
2005 - Bellaghy
2006 - Ballinderry
2007 - Glenullin
2008 - Ballinderry
I like the fact that there are a few teams that can win it even though on paper Ballinderry should be walking it!
Why startwith2002 Sideline
2000Bellaghy
2002 Ballinderry
2003 Loup
2004 Slaughtneil
2005 Bellaghy
2006Ballinderry
2007 Glenullin
2008 Ballinderry
can't see ballinderry winning it in 2009. Too many long termn injuries to key playewrs and they aren't allowed to win it two years in a riow!
Why start with 2000? And skip 2001 ??? I just took it from the top of my head.
Quote from: cornerback on April 29, 2009, 01:47:48 PM
Quote from: seamusthebard on April 29, 2009, 01:14:44 PM
Quote from: SidelineKick on April 29, 2009, 09:48:21 AM
I think the variation in winners in the Derry championship makes it interesting. In my opinion Ballinderry have the best team year in year out but the pattern over the past number of years is as follows:
2002 - Ballinderry
2003 - Loup
2004 - Slaughtneil
2005 - Bellaghy
2006 - Ballinderry
2007 - Glenullin
2008 - Ballinderry
I like the fact that there are a few teams that can win it even though on paper Ballinderry should be walking it!
Why startwith2002 Sideline
2000Bellaghy
2002 Ballinderry
2003 Loup
2004 Slaughtneil
2005 Bellaghy
2006Ballinderry
2007 Glenullin
2008 Ballinderry
can't see ballinderry winning it in 2009. Too many long termn injuries to key playewrs and they aren't allowed to win it two years in a riow!
i'm actually surprised he didn't just start at 2003! Is the omission of 2001 just to prove your two in a row theory?
Well we couldnt start the whole way back at 1973 could we? ;)
In the Ulster club, ove the past 20 years there have been 5 different winners from Derry (a total of 7 titles), 2 different clubs from Armagh (8 titles) and Monaghan (2 titles) and one winner each from Tyrone (2 titles) and Antrim.
Thus Derry would appear to have the most competitive championship in Ulster.
When it comes to the strongest overall, Mayo, Dublin and Galway would be worthy contenders, but the one I would most like to see being played off is the Kerry county championship - from all I hear about it, a Kerry SFC medal is second only to an All Ireland SFC medal (and after they've won a few of them, probably more precious).
Quote from: Bogball XV on April 29, 2009, 02:51:18 PM
In the Ulster club, ove the past 20 years there have been 5 different winners from Derry (a total of 7 titles), 2 different clubs from Armagh (8 titles) and Monaghan (2 titles) and one winner each from Tyrone (2 titles) and Antrim.
Thus Derry would appear to have the most competitive championship in Ulster.
When it comes to the strongest overall, Mayo, Dublin and Galway would be worthy contenders, but the one I would most like to see being played off is the Kerry county championship - from all I hear about it, a Kerry SFC medal is second only to an All Ireland SFC medal (and after they've won a few of them, probably more precious).
The mayo championship is fairly competetive as Abbeysider said you would have Ballina, Ballaghadreen , Knockmore , Charlestown , Crossmolina and some up and coming teams like Breaffy for e.g. In our championship this year in our Group there is Knockmore, Ballina and Crossmolina between them these teams have competed in 5 Ai club finals since 1999 and all clubs are within 7 miles of each other.
Quote from: SidelineKick on April 29, 2009, 02:38:16 PM
Well we couldnt start the whole way back at 1973 could we? ;)
touché :D
In Connacht both Galway and Mayo have pretty strong club championships as witnessed by the fact that 5 different clubs have won the club All-Ireland since 1998. Corofin, Caltra and Salthill from Galway along with Ballina and Crossmolina from Mayo.
Quote from: the Deel Rover on April 29, 2009, 03:04:47 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on April 29, 2009, 02:51:18 PM
In the Ulster club, ove the past 20 years there have been 5 different winners from Derry (a total of 7 titles), 2 different clubs from Armagh (8 titles) and Monaghan (2 titles) and one winner each from Tyrone (2 titles) and Antrim.
Thus Derry would appear to have the most competitive championship in Ulster.
When it comes to the strongest overall, Mayo, Dublin and Galway would be worthy contenders, but the one I would most like to see being played off is the Kerry county championship - from all I hear about it, a Kerry SFC medal is second only to an All Ireland SFC medal (and after they've won a few of them, probably more precious).
The mayo championship is fairly competetive as Abbeysider said you would have Ballina, Ballaghadreen , Knockmore , Charlestown , Crossmolina and some up and coming teams like Breaffy for e.g. In our championship this year in our Group there is Knockmore, Ballina and Crossmolina between them these teams have competed in 5 Ai club finals since 1999 and all clubs are within 7 miles of each other.
You declined to mention Knockmore's fall from grace. Knockmore also 'contested' an AI club final in 1997.
Quote from: Farrandeelin on April 29, 2009, 03:24:50 PM
Quote from: the Deel Rover on April 29, 2009, 03:04:47 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on April 29, 2009, 02:51:18 PM
In the Ulster club, ove the past 20 years there have been 5 different winners from Derry (a total of 7 titles), 2 different clubs from Armagh (8 titles) and Monaghan (2 titles) and one winner each from Tyrone (2 titles) and Antrim.
Thus Derry would appear to have the most competitive championship in Ulster.
When it comes to the strongest overall, Mayo, Dublin and Galway would be worthy contenders, but the one I would most like to see being played off is the Kerry county championship - from all I hear about it, a Kerry SFC medal is second only to an All Ireland SFC medal (and after they've won a few of them, probably more precious).
The mayo championship is fairly competetive as Abbeysider said you would have Ballina, Ballaghadreen , Knockmore , Charlestown , Crossmolina and some up and coming teams like Breaffy for e.g. In our championship this year in our Group there is Knockmore, Ballina and Crossmolina between them these teams have competed in 5 Ai club finals since 1999 and all clubs are within 7 miles of each other.
You declined to mention Knockmore's fall from grace. Knockmore also 'contested' an AI club final in 1997.
i had included you Farrandeelin just got my dates wrong i thought ye contested it in 1999
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on April 29, 2009, 03:21:54 PM
In Connacht both Galway and Mayo have pretty strong club championships as witnessed by the fact that 5 different clubs have won the club All-Ireland since 1998. Corofin, Caltra and Salthill from Galway along with Ballina and Crossmolina from Mayo.
True, but the standard year in year out is pathetic I have to say; only slight bit of quality comes at the semi' stage - even last year's final was awful. Hurling couterpart is light years ahead of it where games are usually well-contested from 1/4 final stages onwards.
Is that why there is generally more people at the hurling finals in Galway than football finals?
Quote from: Farrandeelin on April 29, 2009, 06:07:54 PM
Is that why there is generally more people at the hurling finals in Galway than football finals?
Don't think so. North Galway crowd don't like travelling to Pearse as they still cling onto the halycon days of Tuam Stadium. West Galway crowd will travel but their teams generally don't reach the county final (Carna Cashel did a few years ago but it was a bit of a freak occurance).
South Galway hurling crowd never really had a spirtual home like Tuam so don't mind travelling to Pearse in big numbers.
Certainly though in the last decade in Pearse the hurling county final often gets very big crowds anywhere up to 15,000 (and there have been some fairly one sided finals) . Football final has been as low as 6,000 one year.
Hard to explain really. Galway football is very competitive but Galway hurling can be almost tribal and bitter and that brings the crowds in.
QuoteIn the Ulster club, ove the past 20 years there have been 5 different winners from Derry (a total of 7 titles), 2 different clubs from Armagh (8 titles) and Monaghan (2 titles) and one winner each from Tyrone (2 titles) and Antrim.
Thus Derry would appear to have the most competitive championship in Ulster.
How does these stats equate to Derry's Club Championship being the most competitive?
I think the Derry thing is more the fact that the clubs are all of an average standard bar Ballinderry so thats what makes it competitive, not really something to be boasting about really!
ballinderry,loup and bellaghy have all won the ulster championship this decade what other county in ulster has three winners in 9 years?
mayo have charlestown, ballina,crossmalina
dublin have st brigids,na Fianna,kilmacud and st Vincents
galway have corofin,salthill and caltra
these teams have all won there provincial championship this decade
Does the fact that there hasn't been a Derry Ulster club champion for 6 years now perhaps suggest the standard in the county currently isn't as high as some may think?
I know if Crossmaglen weren't about that statistic would probably be different, but perhaps some should also bear that in mind when running Armagh down as a 'one club county' or words to that effect.
Quote from: AFS on April 30, 2009, 10:50:01 AM
Does the fact that there hasn't been a Derry Ulster club champion for 6 years now perhaps suggest the standard in the county currently isn't as high as some may think?
I know if Crossmaglen weren't about that statistic would probably be different, but perhaps some should also bear that in mind when running Armagh down as a 'one club county' or words to that effect.
very hard to say otherwise,nobody has really put it up to them,drumintee had a go but never really came close.
Quote from: Drumanee 1 on April 30, 2009, 10:56:19 AM
Quote from: AFS on April 30, 2009, 10:50:01 AM
Does the fact that there hasn't been a Derry Ulster club champion for 6 years now perhaps suggest the standard in the county currently isn't as high as some may think?
I know if Crossmaglen weren't about that statistic would probably be different, but perhaps some should also bear that in mind when running Armagh down as a 'one club county' or words to that effect.
very hard to say otherwise,nobody has really put it up to them,drumintee had a go but never really came close.
Well I think a lot of the time when that argument is put across it is done so with the presumption that everyone else in the county is shit. Why is it almost taken for granted that had Cross not won all those Ulsters in recent years that no other Armagh club would have done so? Its is entirely possible that had if Cross not existed that more than a couple of Armagh clubs would've went on to win Ulster, and who knows maybe Al titles, namely Mullagbawn in the late 90s, Dromintee in the early to mid part of this decade, and Pearse Ogs in recent years. Then we would be all be talking about the amazing strength in depth and competitiveness of Armagh club football.
thats all if's but's and maybe's,i have been to quite a few armagh county finals over this past few years and nobody really threatened cross.
a very average bellaghy team went to cross and beat them in cross in 05,now you could say this was a one off and matbe so but you would think over 13 years in armagh there would be one team catch them on a off day.
Of course its all ifs and buts. My main gripe is that more often than not in the last decade Cross having not only been beating the best Armagh can offer, but also the best that any other county in Ulster can throw up. Despite this there is still the assumption that other counties automatically have stronger championships, just because they produce a few different winners over the space of a few years.
I think its a bit of a fallacy to use the number of recent winners, or number of potential future winners, as an indicator of the depth of quality of a competition.
Unfortunately, Dromintee are probably still the most likely team to beat cross in armagh. was it last year they took them to a replay - something only ballinderry have done in ulster in recent years. That said, i still don't expect dromintee to beat cross any time soon.
Well the Armagh Championship is certainly not competitive, it's a foregone conclusion and has been for years.
I've no interest in a championship when it's merely a one horse race, sad but true.
Cross do get 90% of the best footballers in Armagh at a young age. I was told that by 2 very prominent Armagh individuals-with their repuatation of winning at this stage- thats to be expected. Hence their dominance. Vincents dominated the dublin championship in the 50's and 60's and dublin won little or nothing at all-ireland inter county level in that period. Having one very strong team is no good for any county. Thats not Cross's fault but it leaves the standard among the rest at a low enough level.
even when cross were going through transition and building a new team still nobody in armagh could knock them off there perch,and as i said nobody came close with drumintee flattering to deceive.so no matter what way you dress it up armagh at this minute in time and this past 13 years is a one club county,even carlow have 2 contenders.
Quote from: INDIANA on April 30, 2009, 11:54:18 AM
Cross do get 90% of the best footballers in Armagh at a young age. I was told that by 2 very prominent Armagh individuals-with their repuatation of winning at this stage- thats to be expected. Hence their dominance. Vincents dominated the dublin championship in the 50's and 60's and dublin won little or nothing at all-ireland inter county level in that period. Having one very strong team is no good for any county. Thats not Cross's fault but it leaves the standard among the rest at a low enough level.
what are you saying here?that players from the likes of armagh city,lurgan/portadown come to cross just because they are successful,tell me i have took you up wrong.
if you take Cross out the championship in Armagh is extremely competitive, with the other finalists changing constantly. Last year Cross were taken to the pin of their collar by a couple of teams and only a contentious decision disallowing a goal for the Harps prevented them toppling.
You are gauging the rest of Armagh by the fact that they cant beat Cross, BUT CROSS ARE PROBABLY THE GREATEST CLUB SIDE IN HISTORY!!
If the Armagh championship is so shit, how come in the last few years Cross have had their hardest games domestically and then cruise against the other county champions in Ulster?
Quote from: INDIANA on April 30, 2009, 11:54:18 AM
Cross do get 90% of the best footballers in Armagh at a young age. I was told that by 2 very prominent Armagh individuals
Either you took it up wrong or the individuals havent got a clue there Indiana
It is complete & utter bullsh1t
Probably fair to say they get a lot of talented players from other s armagh clubs - particularly the bridge and cullaville
Quote from: eireogatron on April 30, 2009, 11:59:56 AM
if you take Cross out the championship in Armagh is extremely competitive, with the other finalists changing constantly. Last year Cross were taken to the pin of their collar by a couple of teams and only a contentious decision disallowing a goal for the Harps prevented them toppling.
You are gauging the rest of Armagh by the fact that they cant beat Cross, BUT CROSS ARE PROBABLY THE GREATEST CLUB SIDE IN HISTORY!!
If the Armagh championship is so shit, how come in the last few years Cross have had their hardest games domestically and then cruise against the other county champions in Ulster?
sure if you take st galls and cargin out of antrim there championship would be more competitive but that will seriously lessen the quality and the same if you took cross out of armagh.
you say cross are the greatest club side in history,how many of this years team played in 97?so over the years there team has changed several times and still nobody put it up to them.so i think you mean to say they are the greatest club in history.
since 2000 there have been bellaghy,ballinderry,loup and st galls who have all won the ulster championship so cross have not cruised through ulster with ballinderry taking them to a replay last year.
Quote from: eireogatron on April 30, 2009, 11:59:56 AM
if you take Cross out the championship in Armagh is extremely competitive, with the other finalists changing constantly. Last year Cross were taken to the pin of their collar by a couple of teams and only a contentious decision disallowing a goal for the Harps prevented them toppling.
You are gauging the rest of Armagh by the fact that they cant beat Cross, BUT CROSS ARE PROBABLY THE GREATEST CLUB SIDE IN HISTORY!!
If the Armagh championship is so shit, how come in the last few years Cross have had their hardest games domestically and then cruise against the other county champions in Ulster?
thtas one of the easiest questions I will have to answer today...its because all their training and fitness is geared towards the Ulster club due to the FACT that they know they will walk it in Armagh on a half ful tank.
Quote from: The GAA on April 30, 2009, 12:05:05 PM
Probably fair to say they get a lot of talented players from other s armagh clubs - particularly the bridge and cullaville
Add Cullyhanna and Cooley in Louth.
i also forgot that slaughtneil also took them to a replay
My problem is with people considering competitiveness and quality to be analogous. No one is arguing that the Armagh club championship is anything but uncompetitive (one winner for 13 years is an indicator of this), but I feel that many outside the county have used this uncompetitiveness to suggest that there is also a lack of quality.
To use an example from a different sport: the Swedish soccer league is ultra competitive with 8 different winners in the last 10 years; while the French league is extremely uncompetitive with the same team having won it for the last 7 or 8 years. Despite the Swedish league being much more competitive than the French one, only a fool or someone with very little knowledge of soccer would argue that this means the Swedish league is of superior quality.
This all harks back to the point Hardstation alluded to on the first page, the bottom line is that competitiveness is in no way an indicator of quality.
Quote from: AFS on April 30, 2009, 12:22:23 PM
My problem is with people considering competitiveness and quality to be analogous. No one is arguing that the Armagh club championship is anything but uncompetitive (one winner for 13 years is an indicator of this), but I feel that many outside the county have used this uncompetitiveness to suggest that there is also a lack of quality.
To use an example from a different sport: the Swedish soccer league is ultra competitive with 8 different winners in the last 10 years; while the French league is extremely uncompetitive with the same team having won it for the last 7 or 8 years. Despite the Swedish league being much more competitive than the French one, only a fool or someone with very little knowledge of soccer would argue that this means the Swedish league is of superior quality.
This all harks back to the point Hardstation alluded to on the first page, the bottom line is that competitiveness is in no way an indicator of quality.
i take your point but as i have already said i have been to a few championship matches in armagh over the years and imo bar cross the quality is pretty poor.whereas in derry you have various permatations which would be top class matches and you could not be sure of the winner.this past few years ballinderry have been the team to beat and have been on several occasions and thats the difference.
Quote from: nrico2006 on April 30, 2009, 09:02:28 AM
QuoteIn the Ulster club, ove the past 20 years there have been 5 different winners from Derry (a total of 7 titles), 2 different clubs from Armagh (8 titles) and Monaghan (2 titles) and one winner each from Tyrone (2 titles) and Antrim.
Thus Derry would appear to have the most competitive championship in Ulster.
How does these stats equate to Derry's Club Championship being the most competitive?
I actually thought that was self-explanatory, but here goes, Derry have shown over the last 20 years that they have more clubs capable of winning Ulster than any other county in Ulster has exhibited. The fact that we have had so many different winners both of our own championship and the Ulster would indicate that our championship is both competitive and of a high standard.
Dungiven and Loup in their only 2 forays outside of Derry in that period have won Ulster titles, add in that Slaughtneil took Cross to a replay in their only outing and Glenullin fell to St Galls in the semi in their only outing and we see that Derry clubs are generally competitive in Ulster.
Whilst a Derry club hasn't won Ulster in the last six years, we've had the losing finalists in 05, 06 and 08.
Quote from: Drumanee 1 on April 30, 2009, 12:26:28 PM
Quote from: AFS on April 30, 2009, 12:22:23 PM
My problem is with people considering competitiveness and quality to be analogous. No one is arguing that the Armagh club championship is anything but uncompetitive (one winner for 13 years is an indicator of this), but I feel that many outside the county have used this uncompetitiveness to suggest that there is also a lack of quality.
To use an example from a different sport: the Swedish soccer league is ultra competitive with 8 different winners in the last 10 years; while the French league is extremely uncompetitive with the same team having won it for the last 7 or 8 years. Despite the Swedish league being much more competitive than the French one, only a fool or someone with very little knowledge of soccer would argue that this means the Swedish league is of superior quality.
This all harks back to the point Hardstation alluded to on the first page, the bottom line is that competitiveness is in no way an indicator of quality.
i take your point but as i have already said i have been to a few championship matches in armagh over the years and imo bar cross the quality is pretty poor.whereas in derry you have various permatations which would be top class matches and you could not be sure of the winner.this past few years ballinderry have been the team to beat and have been on several occasions and thats the difference.
Suppose I wasn't really referring to you, if you've made a judgment based on your own experiences I can't argue with that. But I've listened to plenty of people, who'd have never been at a football match of any description in Armagh, run down the quality of the championship solely on the fact that there's only been one winner for the last umpteen years.
Quote from: eireogatron on April 30, 2009, 11:59:56 AM
if you take Cross out the championship in Armagh is extremely competitive, with the other finalists changing constantly. Last year Cross were taken to the pin of their collar by a couple of teams and only a contentious decision disallowing a goal for the Harps prevented them toppling.
You are gauging the rest of Armagh by the fact that they cant beat Cross, BUT CROSS ARE PROBABLY THE GREATEST CLUB SIDE IN HISTORY!!
If the Armagh championship is so shit, how come in the last few years Cross have had their hardest games domestically and then cruise against the other county champions in Ulster?
Getting beat by Loup in 2003, Drawing with Slaughtneil in 2004, getting beat by Bellaghy in 2005 and drawing with Ballinderry in 2008 is hardly cruising it.
As for the strengths of Armagh Club football outside Cross?
2008 Ulster Intermediate Championship
Cullyhanna (3rd In Armagh Div 1)
0.9 Greenlough (Div 3 in Derry)
0.112007 Ulster Intermediate Championship
Whitecross (Div 1 Armagh)
0.12 Newbridge (Div 3 in Derry)
1.15Also I have seen plenty of Armagh club games in last few years, including senior championship, intermediate championship and div 1 and 2 league games. Outside of cross the standard is not great and the teams in div 2 are very poor IMHO.
Quote from: Drumanee 1 on April 30, 2009, 12:12:06 PM
Quote from: eireogatron on April 30, 2009, 11:59:56 AM
if you take Cross out the championship in Armagh is extremely competitive, with the other finalists changing constantly. Last year Cross were taken to the pin of their collar by a couple of teams and only a contentious decision disallowing a goal for the Harps prevented them toppling.
You are gauging the rest of Armagh by the fact that they cant beat Cross, BUT CROSS ARE PROBABLY THE GREATEST CLUB SIDE IN HISTORY!!
If the Armagh championship is so shit, how come in the last few years Cross have had their hardest games domestically and then cruise against the other county champions in Ulster?
sure if you take st galls and cargin out of antrim there championship would be more competitive but that will seriously lessen the quality and the same if you took cross out of armagh.
you say cross are the greatest club side in history,how many of this years team played in 97?so over the years there team has changed several times and still nobody put it up to them.so i think you mean to say they are the greatest club in history.
since 2000 there have been bellaghy,ballinderry,loup and st galls who have all won the ulster championship so cross have not cruised through ulster with ballinderry taking them to a replay last year.
they've cruised Ulster in the last 3 years. also there are still members of the team, hearty, mcconville, donaldson, mcentees, short etc who have been involved throughout.
teams like the Harps, Pearse Ogs, Dromintee would also compete in Ulster and would probably be in the shake up for any of the county titles. You use Antrim as your case study, the weakest county in Ulster. Division 4 sides from Armagh would compete in the Antrim div2 for God sake (no offence Antrim, its just the way it is)
Quote from: Bogball XV on April 30, 2009, 12:28:47 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on April 30, 2009, 09:02:28 AM
QuoteIn the Ulster club, ove the past 20 years there have been 5 different winners from Derry (a total of 7 titles), 2 different clubs from Armagh (8 titles) and Monaghan (2 titles) and one winner each from Tyrone (2 titles) and Antrim.
Thus Derry would appear to have the most competitive championship in Ulster.
How does these stats equate to Derry's Club Championship being the most competitive?
I actually thought that was self-explanatory, but here goes, Derry have shown over the last 20 years that they have more clubs capable of winning Ulster than any other county in Ulster has exhibited. The fact that we have had so many different winners both of our own championship and the Ulster would indicate that our championship is both competitive and of a high standard.
Dungiven and Loup in their only 2 forays outside of Derry in that period have won Ulster titles, add in that Slaughtneil took Cross to a replay in their only outing and Glenullin fell to St Galls in the semi in their only outing and we see that Derry clubs are generally competitive in Ulster.
Whilst a Derry club hasn't won Ulster in the last six years, we've had the losing finalists in 05, 06 and 08.
Thank-you bogball. Derry clearly has the best club football, I know competitiveness doesn't always imply high quality but in the case of Derry football it certainly does. I would also agree that people tend to run-down the Armagh SFC without having any experience of it, unfortunately for us (the other clubs) we have been in the company of probably the biggest force in club football in Ireland. I think Cross' dominance in Armagh extends beyond their footballing ability, though we saw this year and last year in the AI club that they are beatable. I would be fairly confident in the next year or so Cross will start to decline, their best players just happen to be their older players, and once these guys start retiring their stranglehold in Armagh will loosen.
Quote from: billy the kid on April 30, 2009, 01:05:17 PM
Quote from: eireogatron on April 30, 2009, 11:59:56 AM
if you take Cross out the championship in Armagh is extremely competitive, with the other finalists changing constantly. Last year Cross were taken to the pin of their collar by a couple of teams and only a contentious decision disallowing a goal for the Harps prevented them toppling.
You are gauging the rest of Armagh by the fact that they cant beat Cross, BUT CROSS ARE PROBABLY THE GREATEST CLUB SIDE IN HISTORY!!
If the Armagh championship is so shit, how come in the last few years Cross have had their hardest games domestically and then cruise against the other county champions in Ulster?
Getting beat by Loup in 2003, Drawing with Slaughtneil in 2004, getting beat by Bellaghy in 2005 and drawing with Ballinderry in 2008 is hardly cruising it.
As for the strengths of Armagh Club football outside Cross?
2008 Ulster Intermediate Championship
Cullyhanna (3rd In Armagh Div 1) 0.9 Greenlough (Div 3 in Derry) 0.11
2007 Ulster Intermediate Championship
Whitecross (Div 1 Armagh) 0.12 Newbridge (Div 3 in Derry) 1.15
Also I have seen plenty of Armagh club games in last few years, including senior championship, intermediate championship and div 1 and 2 league games. Outside of cross the standard is not great and the teams in div 2 are very poor IMHO.
Billy no one is saying Armagh football is stronger than Derry football. Also in any case derry league football is structured differently with 8 teams in each division AFAIK, so Newbridge/Greenlough would probably be Div2 teams if they were from Armagh.
Quote from: eireogatron on April 30, 2009, 01:06:57 PM
Quote from: Drumanee 1 on April 30, 2009, 12:12:06 PM
Quote from: eireogatron on April 30, 2009, 11:59:56 AM
if you take Cross out the championship in Armagh is extremely competitive, with the other finalists changing constantly. Last year Cross were taken to the pin of their collar by a couple of teams and only a contentious decision disallowing a goal for the Harps prevented them toppling.
You are gauging the rest of Armagh by the fact that they cant beat Cross, BUT CROSS ARE PROBABLY THE GREATEST CLUB SIDE IN HISTORY!!
If the Armagh championship is so shit, how come in the last few years Cross have had their hardest games domestically and then cruise against the other county champions in Ulster?
sure if you take st galls and cargin out of antrim there championship would be more competitive but that will seriously lessen the quality and the same if you took cross out of armagh.
you say cross are the greatest club side in history,how many of this years team played in 97?so over the years there team has changed several times and still nobody put it up to them.so i think you mean to say they are the greatest club in history.
since 2000 there have been bellaghy,ballinderry,loup and st galls who have all won the ulster championship so cross have not cruised through ulster with ballinderry taking them to a replay last year.
they've cruised Ulster in the last 3 years. also there are still members of the team, hearty, mcconville, donaldson, mcentees, short etc who have been involved throughout.
teams like the Harps, Pearse Ogs, Dromintee would also compete in Ulster and would probably be in the shake up for any of the county titles. You use Antrim as your case study, the weakest county in Ulster. Division 4 sides from Armagh would compete in the Antrim div2 for God sake (no offence Antrim, its just the way it is)
there are also afew div 1 teams in Armagh that wouldnt compete in div 2 in derry and all of Armagh div 2 (apart from Harps) would struggle in Derry Div 3 (no offence Armagh, its just the way it is) :D ;)
by the way i am not advocating Armagh as the strongest club championship, i am merely pointing out that there are 4 teams at least who would compete well in any other county in Ulster.
Just because we have the best team in the country (i say this despite them losing the AI final) you should not disregard the chasing pack.
Anyone who disagrees that Cross are not the best team in Ulster and have been for at least 12 years consistently is crazy (please do not bring up their defeats in Ulster because these are inevitable, even the best teams get beat sometimes)
Quote from: billy the kid on April 30, 2009, 01:05:17 PM
Quote from: eireogatron on April 30, 2009, 11:59:56 AM
if you take Cross out the championship in Armagh is extremely competitive, with the other finalists changing constantly. Last year Cross were taken to the pin of their collar by a couple of teams and only a contentious decision disallowing a goal for the Harps prevented them toppling.
You are gauging the rest of Armagh by the fact that they cant beat Cross, BUT CROSS ARE PROBABLY THE GREATEST CLUB SIDE IN HISTORY!!
If the Armagh championship is so shit, how come in the last few years Cross have had their hardest games domestically and then cruise against the other county champions in Ulster?
Getting beat by Loup in 2003, Drawing with Slaughtneil in 2004, getting beat by Bellaghy in 2005 and drawing with Ballinderry in 2008 is hardly cruising it.
As for the strengths of Armagh Club football outside Cross?
2008 Ulster Intermediate Championship
Cullyhanna (3rd In Armagh Div 1) 0.9 Greenlough (Div 3 in Derry) 0.11
2007 Ulster Intermediate Championship
Whitecross (Div 1 Armagh) 0.12 Newbridge (Div 3 in Derry) 1.15
Also I have seen plenty of Armagh club games in last few years, including senior championship, intermediate championship and div 1 and 2 league games. Outside of cross the standard is not great and the teams in div 2 are very poor IMHO.
Thats a nonsense argument. picking 2 championship results at random to represent the strength of the overall county is simply stupid. Cullyhanna, although they finished 3rd in the league aren't in the top 8 teams in the county. whitecross just about avoided division 3 football last year.
now i believe that overal club football in derry is stronger than armagh but the top 4 in armagh are a least on a par with the top 4 in derry
Quote from: billy the kid on April 30, 2009, 01:14:52 PM
Quote from: eireogatron on April 30, 2009, 01:06:57 PM
Quote from: Drumanee 1 on April 30, 2009, 12:12:06 PM
Quote from: eireogatron on April 30, 2009, 11:59:56 AM
if you take Cross out the championship in Armagh is extremely competitive, with the other finalists changing constantly. Last year Cross were taken to the pin of their collar by a couple of teams and only a contentious decision disallowing a goal for the Harps prevented them toppling.
You are gauging the rest of Armagh by the fact that they cant beat Cross, BUT CROSS ARE PROBABLY THE GREATEST CLUB SIDE IN HISTORY!!
If the Armagh championship is so shit, how come in the last few years Cross have had their hardest games domestically and then cruise against the other county champions in Ulster?
sure if you take st galls and cargin out of antrim there championship would be more competitive but that will seriously lessen the quality and the same if you took cross out of armagh.
you say cross are the greatest club side in history,how many of this years team played in 97?so over the years there team has changed several times and still nobody put it up to them.so i think you mean to say they are the greatest club in history.
since 2000 there have been bellaghy,ballinderry,loup and st galls who have all won the ulster championship so cross have not cruised through ulster with ballinderry taking them to a replay last year.
they've cruised Ulster in the last 3 years. also there are still members of the team, hearty, mcconville, donaldson, mcentees, short etc who have been involved throughout.
teams like the Harps, Pearse Ogs, Dromintee would also compete in Ulster and would probably be in the shake up for any of the county titles. You use Antrim as your case study, the weakest county in Ulster. Division 4 sides from Armagh would compete in the Antrim div2 for God sake (no offence Antrim, its just the way it is)
there are also afew div 1 teams in Armagh that wouldnt compete in div 2 in derry and all of Armagh div 2 (apart from Harps) would struggle in Derry Div 3 (no offence Armagh, its just the way it is) :D ;)
prove it. ;D
Quote from: The GAA on April 30, 2009, 01:20:09 PM
Quote from: billy the kid on April 30, 2009, 01:05:17 PM
Quote from: eireogatron on April 30, 2009, 11:59:56 AM
if you take Cross out the championship in Armagh is extremely competitive, with the other finalists changing constantly. Last year Cross were taken to the pin of their collar by a couple of teams and only a contentious decision disallowing a goal for the Harps prevented them toppling.
You are gauging the rest of Armagh by the fact that they cant beat Cross, BUT CROSS ARE PROBABLY THE GREATEST CLUB SIDE IN HISTORY!!
If the Armagh championship is so shit, how come in the last few years Cross have had their hardest games domestically and then cruise against the other county champions in Ulster?
Getting beat by Loup in 2003, Drawing with Slaughtneil in 2004, getting beat by Bellaghy in 2005 and drawing with Ballinderry in 2008 is hardly cruising it.
As for the strengths of Armagh Club football outside Cross?
2008 Ulster Intermediate Championship
Cullyhanna (3rd In Armagh Div 1) 0.9 Greenlough (Div 3 in Derry) 0.11
2007 Ulster Intermediate Championship
Whitecross (Div 1 Armagh) 0.12 Newbridge (Div 3 in Derry) 1.15
Also I have seen plenty of Armagh club games in last few years, including senior championship, intermediate championship and div 1 and 2 league games. Outside of cross the standard is not great and the teams in div 2 are very poor IMHO.
Thats a nonsense argument. picking 2 championship results at random to represent the strength of the overall county is simply stupid. Cullyhanna, although they finished 3rd in the league aren't in the top 8 teams in the county. whitecross just about avoided division 3 football last year.
now i believe that overal club football in derry is stronger than armagh but the top 4 in armagh are a least on a par with the top 4 in derry
if you would be so kind as to read my previous post........
Quote from: eireogatron on April 30, 2009, 01:16:32 PM
by the way i am not advocating Armagh as the strongest club championship, i am merely pointing out that there are 4 teams at least who would compete well in any other county in Ulster.
Just because we have the best team in the country (i say this despite them losing the AI final) you should not disregard the chasing pack.
Anyone who disagrees that Cross are not the best team in Ulster and have been for at least 12 years consistently is crazy (please do not bring up their defeats in Ulster because these are inevitable, even the best teams get beat sometimes)
please see above TheGAA
I wasn't addressing you
Quote from: eireogatron on April 30, 2009, 01:16:32 PM
by the way i am not advocating Armagh as the strongest club championship, i am merely pointing out that there are 4 teams at least who would compete well in any other county in Ulster.
Just because we have the best team in the country (i say this despite them losing the AI final) you should not disregard the chasing pack.
Anyone who disagrees that Cross are not the best team in Ulster and have been for at least 12 years consistently is crazy (please do not bring up their defeats in Ulster because these are inevitable, even the best teams get beat sometimes)
but not in armagh
Quote from: eireogatron on April 30, 2009, 01:06:57 PM
Quote from: Drumanee 1 on April 30, 2009, 12:12:06 PM
Quote from: eireogatron on April 30, 2009, 11:59:56 AM
if you take Cross out the championship in Armagh is extremely competitive, with the other finalists changing constantly. Last year Cross were taken to the pin of their collar by a couple of teams and only a contentious decision disallowing a goal for the Harps prevented them toppling.
You are gauging the rest of Armagh by the fact that they cant beat Cross, BUT CROSS ARE PROBABLY THE GREATEST CLUB SIDE IN HISTORY!!
If the Armagh championship is so shit, how come in the last few years Cross have had their hardest games domestically and then cruise against the other county champions in Ulster?
sure if you take st galls and cargin out of antrim there championship would be more competitive but that will seriously lessen the quality and the same if you took cross out of armagh.
you say cross are the greatest club side in history,how many of this years team played in 97?so over the years there team has changed several times and still nobody put it up to them.so i think you mean to say they are the greatest club in history.
since 2000 there have been bellaghy,ballinderry,loup and st galls who have all won the ulster championship so cross have not cruised through ulster with ballinderry taking them to a replay last year.
they've cruised Ulster in the last 3 years. also there are still members of the team, hearty, mcconville, donaldson, mcentees, short etc who have been involved throughout.
teams like the Harps, Pearse Ogs, Dromintee would also compete in Ulster and would probably be in the shake up for any of the county titles. You use Antrim as your case study, the weakest county in Ulster. Division 4 sides from Armagh would compete in the Antrim div2 for God sake (no offence Antrim, its just the way it is)
hearty and donaldson were not on in 97
ok the last three years,even though ballinderry took them to a replay i will give you that but what about the previous 10 years in armagh?
forget antrim then,lets take a soccer equilavent for example,take celtic and rangers out of there league what are you left with,come to think of it when i think of similar situation i always come up with 2 teams whereas in armagh ther is just 1 ::).
Hearty was there in 97 - he got injured and missed the all ireland run in. mcentees, mcconville, bellew and short are the ever presents.
This is silly talk, you cannot compare the Armagh championship to the other ones in Ulster. Until one of the teams actually make the breakthrough then no one can say for definite that they are as good as teams coming out of Derry, Tyrone or any of the other counties. It may be competitive to an extent, but lets face it we cruised the league last year with a shadow team who were training once a week till August. The games in Armagh will always be tight as teams always raise their game and never mind the obvious ability we have the biggest compliment I can pay to our boys is that mentally they can still do it.
Of the other championship Derry is very strong, Mayo and Galway, Dublin and despite Nemo dominating the winning of it the Cork Championship is of a very high level. There would be 5-6 teams in Cork would give most championships a serious run.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 30, 2009, 01:37:52 PM
This is silly talk, you cannot compare the Armagh championship to the other ones in Ulster. Until one of the teams actually make the breakthrough then no one can say for definite that they are as good as teams coming out of Derry, Tyrone or any of the other counties. It may be competitive to an extent, but lets face it we cruised the league last year with a shadow team who were training once a week till August. The games in Armagh will always be tight as teams always raise their game and never mind the obvious ability we have the biggest compliment I can pay to our boys is that mentally they can still do it.
Of the other championship Derry is very strong, Mayo and Galway, Dublin and despite Nemo dominating the winning of it the Cork Championship is of a very high level. There would be 5-6 teams in Cork would give most championships a serious run.
Don't contradict yourself there..
Quote from: The GAA on April 30, 2009, 01:33:33 PM
Hearty was there in 97 - he got injured and missed the all ireland run in. mcentees, mcconville, bellew and short are the ever presents.
i repeat he was not on,mcconville did goals during there 96/97 run.
bc will tell you for sure but he has been goals for every armagh championship win, including 96, but he got injured for the all ireland and mcconville did goals
Quote from: The GAA on April 30, 2009, 01:40:30 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 30, 2009, 01:37:52 PM
This is silly talk, you cannot compare the Armagh championship to the other ones in Ulster. Until one of the teams actually make the breakthrough then no one can say for definite that they are as good as teams coming out of Derry, Tyrone or any of the other counties. It may be competitive to an extent, but lets face it we cruised the league last year with a shadow team who were training once a week till August. The games in Armagh will always be tight as teams always raise their game and never mind the obvious ability we have the biggest compliment I can pay to our boys is that mentally they can still do it.
Of the other championship Derry is very strong, Mayo and Galway, Dublin and despite Nemo dominating the winning of it the Cork Championship is of a very high level. There would be 5-6 teams in Cork would give most championships a serious run.
Don't contradict yourself there..
The difference is that Nemo havce been beaten in the championship down here over the last 13 years, an have won at least once through the back door. I am not saying that Armagh is not strong, but I can do a direct comparison and can categorically state that the Cork championship is of a higher standard.
Hearty broke his ankle the week before we played Burren and Jarlath took over in nets and kept his place for the rest of the season. Hearty had played the Armagh championship before that.
Quote from: The GAA on April 30, 2009, 01:27:15 PM
I wasn't addressing you
i'm in total agreement with you then lol!
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 30, 2009, 01:45:49 PM
Quote from: The GAA on April 30, 2009, 01:40:30 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 30, 2009, 01:37:52 PM
This is silly talk, you cannot compare the Armagh championship to the other ones in Ulster. Until one of the teams actually make the breakthrough then no one can say for definite that they are as good as teams coming out of Derry, Tyrone or any of the other counties. It may be competitive to an extent, but lets face it we cruised the league last year with a shadow team who were training once a week till August. The games in Armagh will always be tight as teams always raise their game and never mind the obvious ability we have the biggest compliment I can pay to our boys is that mentally they can still do it.
Of the other championship Derry is very strong, Mayo and Galway, Dublin and despite Nemo dominating the winning of it the Cork Championship is of a very high level. There would be 5-6 teams in Cork would give most championships a serious run.
Don't contradict yourself there..
The difference is that Nemo havce been beaten in the championship down here over the last 13 years, an have won at least once through the back door. I am not saying that Armagh is not strong, but I can do a direct comparison and can categorically state that the Cork championship is of a higher standard.
Hearty broke his ankle the week before we played Burren and Jarlath took over in nets and kept his place for the rest of the season. Hearty had played the Armagh championship before that.
Wouldn't be so sure. Had the misfortune of living in Cork for 5 years. The Cork SFC is very mediocre. Wouldn't even be as good as Dublin. And Dublin's is only average when you strip out the mercenaries. Clubs like Clonakilty, Castlehaven etc have all gone downhill. Junior and intermediate is very strong though. Would be miles stronger than Armagh at those levels.
Daniel Goulding comes from a backwater junior club and so do a number of the cork u21 teams of late. Cross have the Armagh championship ruined- but thats not their fault-its up to the others to raise their game a bit. But its difficult when one club are miles tronger than the rest.
Quote from: INDIANA on April 30, 2009, 03:22:49 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 30, 2009, 01:45:49 PM
Quote from: The GAA on April 30, 2009, 01:40:30 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 30, 2009, 01:37:52 PM
This is silly talk, you cannot compare the Armagh championship to the other ones in Ulster. Until one of the teams actually make the breakthrough then no one can say for definite that they are as good as teams coming out of Derry, Tyrone or any of the other counties. It may be competitive to an extent, but lets face it we cruised the league last year with a shadow team who were training once a week till August. The games in Armagh will always be tight as teams always raise their game and never mind the obvious ability we have the biggest compliment I can pay to our boys is that mentally they can still do it.
Of the other championship Derry is very strong, Mayo and Galway, Dublin and despite Nemo dominating the winning of it the Cork Championship is of a very high level. There would be 5-6 teams in Cork would give most championships a serious run.
Don't contradict yourself there..
The difference is that Nemo havce been beaten in the championship down here over the last 13 years, an have won at least once through the back door. I am not saying that Armagh is not strong, but I can do a direct comparison and can categorically state that the Cork championship is of a higher standard.
Hearty broke his ankle the week before we played Burren and Jarlath took over in nets and kept his place for the rest of the season. Hearty had played the Armagh championship before that.
Wouldn't be so sure. Had the misfortune of living in Cork for 5 years. The Cork SFC is very mediocre. Wouldn't even be as good as Dublin. And Dublin's is only average when you strip out the mercenaries. Clubs like Clonakilty, Castlehaven etc have all gone downhill. Junior and intermediate is very strong though. Would be miles stronger than Armagh at those levels.
Daniel Goulding comes from a backwater junior club and so do a number of the cork u21 teams of late. Cross have the Armagh championship ruined- but thats not their fault-its up to the others to raise their game a bit. But its difficult when one club are miles tronger than the rest.
I have lived here for nearly 4 years now. While some clubs are on the way back, the like of Clon and Bantry, other clubs are rising. The Haven will be hard to beat over the next few years as will Douglas, Ilen and Ballincollig. If the Barrs got their act together they could be a force again. The junior and Intermediate clubs are very strong, similar to Kerry in that respect.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 30, 2009, 03:54:38 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on April 30, 2009, 03:22:49 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 30, 2009, 01:45:49 PM
Quote from: The GAA on April 30, 2009, 01:40:30 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 30, 2009, 01:37:52 PM
This is silly talk, you cannot compare the Armagh championship to the other ones in Ulster. Until one of the teams actually make the breakthrough then no one can say for definite that they are as good as teams coming out of Derry, Tyrone or any of the other counties. It may be competitive to an extent, but lets face it we cruised the league last year with a shadow team who were training once a week till August. The games in Armagh will always be tight as teams always raise their game and never mind the obvious ability we have the biggest compliment I can pay to our boys is that mentally they can still do it.
Of the other championship Derry is very strong, Mayo and Galway, Dublin and despite Nemo dominating the winning of it the Cork Championship is of a very high level. There would be 5-6 teams in Cork would give most championships a serious run.
Don't contradict yourself there..
The difference is that Nemo havce been beaten in the championship down here over the last 13 years, an have won at least once through the back door. I am not saying that Armagh is not strong, but I can do a direct comparison and can categorically state that the Cork championship is of a higher standard.
Hearty broke his ankle the week before we played Burren and Jarlath took over in nets and kept his place for the rest of the season. Hearty had played the Armagh championship before that.
Wouldn't be so sure. Had the misfortune of living in Cork for 5 years. The Cork SFC is very mediocre. Wouldn't even be as good as Dublin. And Dublin's is only average when you strip out the mercenaries. Clubs like Clonakilty, Castlehaven etc have all gone downhill. Junior and intermediate is very strong though. Would be miles stronger than Armagh at those levels.
Daniel Goulding comes from a backwater junior club and so do a number of the cork u21 teams of late. Cross have the Armagh championship ruined- but thats not their fault-its up to the others to raise their game a bit. But its difficult when one club are miles tronger than the rest.
I have lived here for nearly 4 years now. While some clubs are on the way back, the like of Clon and Bantry, other clubs are rising. The Haven will be hard to beat over the next few years as will Douglas, Ilen and Ballincollig. If the Barrs got their act together they could be a force again. The junior and Intermediate clubs are very strong, similar to Kerry in that respect.
surely the piarsigh's with three huge o'hailpins would be decent too ?
Setanta will surely be home soon also !
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 30, 2009, 03:59:27 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 30, 2009, 03:54:38 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on April 30, 2009, 03:22:49 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 30, 2009, 01:45:49 PM
Quote from: The GAA on April 30, 2009, 01:40:30 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 30, 2009, 01:37:52 PM
This is silly talk, you cannot compare the Armagh championship to the other ones in Ulster. Until one of the teams actually make the breakthrough then no one can say for definite that they are as good as teams coming out of Derry, Tyrone or any of the other counties. It may be competitive to an extent, but lets face it we cruised the league last year with a shadow team who were training once a week till August. The games in Armagh will always be tight as teams always raise their game and never mind the obvious ability we have the biggest compliment I can pay to our boys is that mentally they can still do it.
Of the other championship Derry is very strong, Mayo and Galway, Dublin and despite Nemo dominating the winning of it the Cork Championship is of a very high level. There would be 5-6 teams in Cork would give most championships a serious run.
Don't contradict yourself there..
The difference is that Nemo havce been beaten in the championship down here over the last 13 years, an have won at least once through the back door. I am not saying that Armagh is not strong, but I can do a direct comparison and can categorically state that the Cork championship is of a higher standard.
Hearty broke his ankle the week before we played Burren and Jarlath took over in nets and kept his place for the rest of the season. Hearty had played the Armagh championship before that.
Wouldn't be so sure. Had the misfortune of living in Cork for 5 years. The Cork SFC is very mediocre. Wouldn't even be as good as Dublin. And Dublin's is only average when you strip out the mercenaries. Clubs like Clonakilty, Castlehaven etc have all gone downhill. Junior and intermediate is very strong though. Would be miles stronger than Armagh at those levels.
Daniel Goulding comes from a backwater junior club and so do a number of the cork u21 teams of late. Cross have the Armagh championship ruined- but thats not their fault-its up to the others to raise their game a bit. But its difficult when one club are miles tronger than the rest.
I have lived here for nearly 4 years now. While some clubs are on the way back, the like of Clon and Bantry, other clubs are rising. The Haven will be hard to beat over the next few years as will Douglas, Ilen and Ballincollig. If the Barrs got their act together they could be a force again. The junior and Intermediate clubs are very strong, similar to Kerry in that respect.
surely the piarsigh's with three huge o'hailpins would be decent too ?
Setanta will surely be home soon also !
And John Gardiner! On their day they would beat anyone of the top teams but they are a hurling team playing football. They have no real drive to make any big push. If you add in the divisonal teams like Duhallow and Carbery and to a lesser extent Muskerry, Imokilly, Carrigdoun and the Universities then there is serious competition.
Can't agree mate. We'll have to agree to disagree but there's Nemo and then the rest from what I saw. I thought a lot of the divisionals were shocking poor for the pick they had. Corks new found strength is from the intermediate and junior segments. They don't seem to put the same effort into the divisional teams like Kerry do.
Quote from: INDIANA on April 30, 2009, 09:53:13 PM
Can't agree mate. We'll have to agree to disagree but there's Nemo and then the rest from what I saw. I thought a lot of the divisionals were shocking poor for the pick they had. Corks new found strength is from the intermediate and junior segments. They don't seem to put the same effort into the divisional teams like Kerry do.
I agree that Nemo are a step above but there is a new found emphasis on the football and the quality from the successful under 21's is starting to filter through. The divisonal teams are also getting better, with Duhallow and Carbery as strong as any club team. Duhallow in particular would give the best of them a good run and Crabery are actually favoured to win the whole lot this year. bantry have dropped from senior and have brought a lot of quality to the set up. The strength in the Intermediate level is also very high, with the likes of Glanmire and Carrigaline being major forces there. When I first came down I thought the level was poor but it has increased dramatically as there is less confidence that the hurlers will bring success, and Counihan is highly respected. John Cleary also has done great work at u 21 and the clubs are benefitting.
Just a word on competitiveness in the derry championship, the reigning champions Ballinderry, and last year's finalists Slaughtneil have been beaten in their first round games by Lavey and Swatragh respectively (both lower division teams), how's that for competitive?
(Don't be expecting to see Oakleafer93 around for a while ;)
Kilmacud were beaten by Lucan on friday night in the first round. Beat that ;D
Quote from: INDIANA on May 03, 2009, 09:23:12 PM
Kilmacud were beaten by Lucan on friday night in the first round. Beat that ;D
that's impressive alright, with all these shocks about, next thing we'll be hearing is that Cross have lost a league game in Armagh :D
Quote from: Bogball XV on May 03, 2009, 09:15:26 PM
Just a word on competitiveness in the derry championship, the reigning champions Ballinderry, and last year's finalists Slaughtneil have been beaten in their first round games by Lavey and Swatragh respectively (both lower division teams), how's that for competitive?
(Don't be expecting to see Oakleafer93 around for a while ;)
Working tonight so won't get to join in the festivities.. could this be the start of a whole new Lavey back to where we belong?! I HOPE SO!!
Also, oh can't wait for the backdoor draws.
So are Ballinderry and Slaughtneil out?
Quote from: nrico2006 on May 04, 2009, 09:14:41 AM
So are Ballinderry and Slaughtneil out?
No - back door.
Hardly supports the 'competitive' argument then.
Quote from: Maximus Marillius on April 30, 2009, 12:14:08 PM
Quote from: eireogatron on April 30, 2009, 11:59:56 AM
if you take Cross out the championship in Armagh is extremely competitive, with the other finalists changing constantly. Last year Cross were taken to the pin of their collar by a couple of teams and only a contentious decision disallowing a goal for the Harps prevented them toppling.
You are gauging the rest of Armagh by the fact that they cant beat Cross, BUT CROSS ARE PROBABLY THE GREATEST CLUB SIDE IN HISTORY!!
If the Armagh championship is so shit, how come in the last few years Cross have had their hardest games domestically and then cruise against the other county champions in Ulster?
thtas one of the easiest questions I will have to answer today...its because all their training and fitness is geared towards the Ulster club due to the FACT that they know they will walk it in Armagh on a half ful tank.
Fact ??? ??? This is a Donal Murtagh mouthing of myth. Cross dont need to train like demons themselves during the summer as they have(had) a shitload of players on the Armagh panel, were them boys not fit for club championship football? Aside from this I suspect Donal is a bit of an arrogant fella, who would like you to buy into the Cross invincibility business.
Another factor in Cross' dominance of Armagh is the relatively late starting date of the Armagh championship. Unlike many other counties that are back into the swing of things already, the first round of the championship here isn't til the middle of August. This gives Cross 5 months at a minimum to recharge the batteries from the previous year's AI/ Ulster club campaign.
fair point AFS Crokes had 5 weeks. They go into the backdoor but thats on next week. So they could be out in 2 weeks time.
Quote from: AFS on May 04, 2009, 04:36:48 PM
Another factor in Cross' dominance of Armagh is the relatively late starting date of the Armagh championship. Unlike many other counties that are back into the swing of things already, the first round of the championship here isn't til the middle of August. This gives Cross 5 months at a minimum to recharge the batteries from the previous year's AI/ Ulster club campaign.
Not true AFS, it is only in the last 2 seasons that this has been the case. The majority of the time the first round is played in May and I recall playing a few times in April. One in particular sticks out when we won the AI and then were out the last weekend of April against Ballyhegan. I would agree however that the recent change in the way things are run, ie playing it later in the summer, does benefit us more than most. We can use the league as a way of getting the younger lads up to the pace of the game. I also know the type of training that was happening in the months building up to August and it certainly was beneficial in the Ballinderry games.
That is unreal about Crokes, that is the difference between us and a lot of teams in that no matter how much other teams are able to motivate themselves against us we have always been able to get through the tough sticky early rounds. At least they have the back door, something which we would not have the advantage of.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on May 04, 2009, 06:42:57 PM
Quote from: AFS on May 04, 2009, 04:36:48 PM
Another factor in Cross' dominance of Armagh is the relatively late starting date of the Armagh championship. Unlike many other counties that are back into the swing of things already, the first round of the championship here isn't til the middle of August. This gives Cross 5 months at a minimum to recharge the batteries from the previous year's AI/ Ulster club campaign.
Not true AFS, it is only in the last 2 seasons that this has been the case. The majority of the time the first round is played in May and I recall playing a few times in April. One in particular sticks out when we won the AI and then were out the last weekend of April against Ballyhegan. I would agree however that the recent change in the way things are run, ie playing it later in the summer, does benefit us more than most. We can use the league as a way of getting the younger lads up to the pace of the game. I also know the type of training that was happening in the months building up to August and it certainly was beneficial in the Ballinderry games.
That is unreal about Crokes, that is the difference between us and a lot of teams in that no matter how much other teams are able to motivate themselves against us we have always been able to get through the tough sticky early rounds. At least they have the back door, something which we would not have the advantage of.
you dont need it :)
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on May 04, 2009, 06:42:57 PM
Quote from: AFS on May 04, 2009, 04:36:48 PM
Another factor in Cross' dominance of Armagh is the relatively late starting date of the Armagh championship. Unlike many other counties that are back into the swing of things already, the first round of the championship here isn't til the middle of August. This gives Cross 5 months at a minimum to recharge the batteries from the previous year's AI/ Ulster club campaign.
Not true AFS, it is only in the last 2 seasons that this has been the case. The majority of the time the first round is played in May and I recall playing a few times in April. One in particular sticks out when we won the AI and then were out the last weekend of April against Ballyhegan. I would agree however that the recent change in the way things are run, ie playing it later in the summer, does benefit us more than most. We can use the league as a way of getting the younger lads up to the pace of the game. I also know the type of training that was happening in the months building up to August and it certainly was beneficial in the Ballinderry games.
That is unreal about Crokes, that is the difference between us and a lot of teams in that no matter how much other teams are able to motivate themselves against us we have always been able to get through the tough sticky early rounds. At least they have the back door, something which we would not have the advantage of.
Yeah fair enough this is a fairly recent thing.
Back to back winning all Irleands would seem to say that Dublin boasts the strongest clubs.
QuoteBack to back winning all Irleands would seem to say that Dublin boasts the strongest clubs.
As well they should, given the large populations in their catchment areas and the number of blow in players that they have.
Quote from: armaghniac on May 06, 2009, 12:14:30 PM
QuoteBack to back winning all Irleands would seem to say that Dublin boasts the strongest clubs.
As well they should, given the large populations in their catchment areas and the number of blow in players that they have.
Ah what did you do that for? The Dubs will be all over you for that one! Kilmacud and Vincents actually had very few blow ins in their winning teams... around the same amount as Crossmaglen ;)
True but the big catchment area argument only applies southside . Take vincents for example - 6 clubs in a 5 mile radius. hardly much of a catchment area considering you've soccer,rugby etc to comepte with. The blow in point is well made-