Galway had an impressive start to the season, against lesser teams such as Donegal, Westmeath, Dublin and a poor Tyrone, with a defeat to Mayo a total hammering by Kerry and a draw with Derry is the hype really just a lot of hot air? Against a team that can man-mark Meehan and more than challenge their midfield, are Galway just average opposed to front runners for Sam?
There are no front runners to Sam outside Kerry and Tyrone.
Everyone else is nearly on the same level from 3-10 bar maybe Cork who I'd rate as next best to the above 2.
Kerry/Tyrone
Cork/Galway/Derry/Armagh
Mayo/Monaghan
The Rest
Quote from: Katchit on April 14, 2009, 03:41:00 PM
Kerry/Tyrone
Cork/Galway/Derry/Armagh
Mayo/Monaghan
The Rest
Armagh are probably one of the most over rated teams in the country, fair enough they won an Ulster last year but who did they beat to get it? And then look what heppened them when they came up against proper competition, Monaghan and Mayo both above them.
Kerry/Tyrone
Cork
Derry/Galway/Monaghan/Dublin/Mayo/Meath
The rest
Quote from: Katchit on April 14, 2009, 03:41:00 PM
Kerry/Tyrone
Cork/Galway/Derry/Armagh
Mayo/Monaghan
The Rest
There's no real line of form to suggest that we are as well placed as Cork, Galway and Derry. Even Dublin, who now seem to be discounted, thrashed the Wexford side that beat us.
Cork look well placed for a challenge but its hard to take them seriously as contenders until they beat Kerry in a knock out match. Galway and Derry should be kicking on this year to make a genuine challenge.
Monaghan, Mayo and Dublin are probably the best of the rest.
Hopefully ;)
Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on April 14, 2009, 03:49:53 PM
Cork look well placed for a challenge but its hard to take them seriously as contenders until they beat Kerry in a knock out match. Galway and Derry should be kicking on this year to make a genuine challenge.
Monaghan, Mayo and Dublin are probably the best of the rest.
Cork have beaten Kerry in the munster championship its when they get to Croke park they seem to have a problem beating them tam
Quote from: the Deel Rover on April 14, 2009, 03:54:57 PM
Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on April 14, 2009, 03:49:53 PM
Cork look well placed for a challenge but its hard to take them seriously as contenders until they beat Kerry in a knock out match. Galway and Derry should be kicking on this year to make a genuine challenge.
Monaghan, Mayo and Dublin are probably the best of the rest.
Cork have beaten Kerry in the munster championship its when they get to Croke park they seem to have a problem beating them tam
Deel I meant knock out as in loser is out of the championship.
Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on April 14, 2009, 03:56:19 PM
Quote from: the Deel Rover on April 14, 2009, 03:54:57 PM
Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on April 14, 2009, 03:49:53 PM
Cork look well placed for a challenge but its hard to take them seriously as contenders until they beat Kerry in a knock out match. Galway and Derry should be kicking on this year to make a genuine challenge.
Monaghan, Mayo and Dublin are probably the best of the rest.
Cork have beaten Kerry in the munster championship its when they get to Croke park they seem to have a problem beating them tam
Deel I meant knock out as in loser is out of the championship.
apologies tam still not functioning right after the weekend ;)
Agree with you about Cork. However, they drew with them last year and lost fairly narrowly in the replay. They have a better team this year but so have Kerry.
Quote from: Oakleafer93 on April 14, 2009, 03:25:50 PM
Galway had an impressive start to the season, against lesser teams such as Donegal, Westmeath, Dublin and a poor Tyrone, with a defeat to Mayo a total hammering by Kerry and a draw with Derry is the hype really just a lot of hot air? Against a team that can man-mark Meehan and more than challenge their midfield, are Galway just average opposed to front runners for Sam?
What hype? There certainly aint any hype down here! Our limitations are well documentated here on a regular basis.
Kerry & Tyrone have by far the strongest squads in the country and are a good bit ahead of the chasing pack right now. We all have a lot to do to catch them.
Ah not a chance of anybody getting close to Galway in Connacht anyway. I reckon they will romp home in every game they play. Sligo might test them though.
Quote from: hardstation on April 14, 2009, 03:32:27 PM
Sure Kerry's full back line will cost them the All Ireland and Tyrone's midfield will be cleaned out in every game.
When will you learn? Tyrone won an All Ireland in 2005 without a settled mid field and the two as lined out got bate every time. They don't play like that and Harte considers the mid field sector the area from half back line to half forwards not just two big lumaxes in the middle. Tyrone could very well win Sam tho I wouldn't be shocked if Galway came good.
on current form i'd have:
Kerry
Derry/Tyrone/Cork/Monaghan
Mayo/Armagh/Galway/Dublin
Donegal/Meath/Laois/Down
The rest..
Come championship I'd fancy Galway for Connacht hands down, Londonderry for Ulster, Kerry Munster and Dubs for Leinster.
Quote from: fitzroyalty on April 14, 2009, 04:34:18 PM
on current form i'd have:
Kerry
Derry/Tyrone/Cork/Monaghan
Mayo/Armagh/Galway/Dublin
Donegal/Meath/Laois/Down
The rest..
Come championship I'd fancy Galway for Connacht hands down, Londonderry for Ulster, Kerry Munster and Dubs for Leinster.
That is so funny...
We're in the same place we were before the league began. In a chasing pack behind Tyrone and Kerry. Some would say a fair distance behind.
And it should be remembered we did only miss out on the league final on points difference. It just seems disappointing as we lost our last two games so we didn't exactly finish on a high. That said we had a very difficult schedule of games with having to go away to Tyrone, Kerry and Derry in the one campaign. I didn't even expect us to even compete for a league final place to be honest.
Midfield is probably going to let us down at some stage. The last day Kerry won 13 out of 16 kickouts in the first half alone. You can't expect to win big games on numbers like that. Barry Cullinane is a huge physical presence but not much of a footballer while Joe Bergin is a very good footballer he's probably a better half-forward than a midfielder. A young Kevin Walsh would improve that Galway team immeasurably. Unfortunately he's now retired and managing Sligo. Something maybe to be learned from Tyrone who don't have a huge midfield that catches much clean ball but they always get such numbers in there they usually win enough possession to win games.
If we were to play well I think we could probably beat anyone on our day but difficult to see how we can get over the Kerry hump at the moment. Going one on one with them just plays into their hands but I can't see Sammon adopting any other policy.
That said I think we'll probably be in the quarter-finals come August. After that it depends on the luck of the draw and how you play on the day but I don't expect Sam to be going anywhere other than to either Kerry or Tyrone in September although someone else might sneak into the final if the cards fall their way.
April is on the early side for teams to be getting found out. Discount Galway at your absolute peril. I'd put them in the first tier with Kerry and Tyrone. Their forwards are second only to Kerry's and I'd take their midfield bellyaching with a pinch of salt. Seán Fada Ó Domhnaill was no Jack O'Shea but he has the All-Ireland medal just the same. No one with sense is looking forward to playing Galway once the meadow is cut.
There was too much positive overreaction to Galway's early league performances, just as there is too much negative overreaction now to their last two defeats.
Quote from: magpie seanie on April 14, 2009, 04:55:21 PM
There was too much positive overreaction to Galway's early league performances, just as there is too much negative overreaction now to their last two defeats.
Indeed. And I was guilty of the former after seeing them against Dublin. There really is a very level playing field this year with Kerry able to beat everyone bar Tyrone and Tyrone themselves far from able to beat everyone.
QuoteTheir forwards are second only to Kerry's
The above quote imo is simply a myth that has been hanging round since the days of John O'Mahoney. Back then fair enough we had a serious forward line - Padraig Joyce, Michael Donnellan, Derek Savage, Niall Finnegan, Ja Fallon, Paul Clancy.
If you look at our attack nowadays then Michael Meehan is the only player in the same league as the above mentioned. Padraig Joyce still produces moments of magic but is not the same player he was circa 2001.
The reason we will struggle against the top teams is that we are simply too reliant on Michael Meehan. If even one other forward had stepped up to the mark we could have beaten Kerry in the AI quarter final last year.
Look at our attack last Sunday => Fiachra Breathnach, Matthew Clancy, Paul Conroy. Honest, hard working players but they are not going to rack up the scores against the top teams simple as that.
If Meehan gets injured we are in deep s***.
There has been no other forward coming through the underage ranks in recent years with star quality I'm afraid.
I don't think that anything new or different has been found out about Galway, we struggled against the top teams around the middle of the field last year, it's the same story this year as no new players have come in to make a difference in these areas. As has been mentioned earlier, if you lose 13 out of 16 kickouts during a half there is no chance of winning the game.
Quote from: galwayman on April 14, 2009, 05:38:41 PM
QuoteTheir forwards are second only to Kerry's
Fiachra Breathnach, Matthew Clancy, Paul Conroy. Honest, hard working players but they are not going to rack up the scores against the top teams simple as that.
I honestly don't think the forwards are the problem. We nearly always rack up big scores. I still think we have better forwards than the vast majority of other counties. Paul Conroy is a fine young player who has been scoring regularly in the league. Nicky Joyce is hugely talented although a bit injury prone and a bit tempremental. Cormac Bane an enigma who can drift out of games but who can kick points from anywhere when given the service. Sean Armstrong maybe hasn't kicked on from his U-21 days due to injuries but again is capable if he can stay fit long enough. Fair enough guys like Breathnach and Mattie are more your honest grafters but even Mattie has been known to have an eye for goal at times. Throw in Meehan and PJ and there is more than enough there to work with. It may be that the others are now content to let Meehan do all the scoring but they are more than capable of kicking their own scores but right now it's all going through Meehan whether by accident or design.
The problem is if you don't win enough possession in the middle third of the field you are going to concede too many scores as no defence can hold out indefinitely when the opposition are winning 75% of the kickouts. The backs actually did remarkably well to hold Kerry the last day to a one point lead at half-time after they caught nearly every single kickout but you can't get away with it for 70 minutes.
Galway may not have the individual forwards of 98-01 period but they still have a wider range of above average attackers than most counties have. Joyce had an excellent season last year and in my opinion is as dangerous as he was in 01 but being on the 40 reduces his scoring opportunites. Plus on the 40 in a big match in Croker he would struggle to contain a driving centre back like O'Mahony. Think Galway need a more mobile centre forward and push PJ in with Meehan if they're to make it to the last 4 in championship. This might also help the breaking ball gains around the middle of the field where with the exception on Bergin they're limited. Connacht is between them and Mayo as usual. Mayo might be coming right at the right time and they have to be getting something out of 4 connacht winning u-21 teams.
In my usual delusional state I still think Galway are in the top 2/3 teams about, I wouldn't fear for their chances against the likes of Derry or Tyrone to a lesser extent and with a fair wind behind them they could probably even beat regular bogey teams Cork and Dublin this year. Trouble is Kerry are so far and away the best team in the game (miles ahead of Tyrone I have to say) that unless someone removes them out of their way first Galway once again have no chance of Sam this year. Galway have definitely improved under Sammon and perhaps don't rely on Meehan to quite the extent that some believe; however Sammon is still a bit old-fashioned IMHO and doesn't seem to recognize that a tactical approach rather than outright football is needed against Kerry. There must also now be serious questions regarding his judgement about some players, most particularly the continued inclusion of Matt Clancy who was dreadful again last Sunday. On a wider issue, why have the better players from the Minor team 2 years ago not been brought through? Only Conroy is there at the moment, though Fahy and Forde are both injured. This is an area that the hurling counterparts regularly neglect.
In summary, I'd even back our hurlers to beat KK quicker than our footballers to overcome Kerry.
Quote from: Farrandeelin on April 14, 2009, 04:29:14 PM
Ah not a chance of anybody getting close to Galway in Connacht anyway. I reckon they will romp home in every game they play. Sligo might test them though.
In a realistic assessment, I think Galway will win Connacht, and believe Mayo might be caught on the hop against the Rossies if I'm honest. We've no need for poor mouthing in Galway.
I don't really see the point in talking down your counties chances on an internet message board. It's not as if after winning the Connacht title, Mortimer will say "AnFhaircheAbu wrote us off at the beginning of the year, and we wanted to stick his/her text down his/her keyboard."
Galway have had a tough league campaign, with some difficult away games, and probably the worst run in they could have hoped for.
We just missed out on a league final place, which we would've taken at the start of the year.
Not happy about losing to Mayo at home, but sure it gives us something to set right in the championship if we end up against them.
Galway, Derry, Dublin, Cork, Mayo are all about the same level. It wouldn't be a surprise if any of those teams beat each other. However, they're all well behind Tyrone, who are the only team capable of stopping Kerry.
Galway's problem is definitely in midfield, and to a lesser extent wing-forward. We don't have a Dooher or Galvin who can come in and help do the dirty work if we're losing out at midfield.
Quote from: DJGaliv on April 14, 2009, 07:39:26 PM
We've no need for poor mouthing in Galway.
I don't really see the point in talking down your counties chances on an internet message board. It's not as if after winning the Connacht title, Mortimer will say "AnFhaircheAbu wrote us off at the beginning of the year, and we wanted to stick his/her text down his/her keyboard."
I'd never write off Mayo anyway DJGaliv, a great bunch of lads altogether ;)
Quote from: DJGaliv on April 14, 2009, 07:39:26 PM
Galway's problem is definitely in midfield, and to a lesser extent wing-forward. We don't have a Dooher or Galvin who can come in and help do the dirty work if we're losing out at midfield.
I agree fully and I think most Galway supporters have seen this midfield issue as the main problem all through the league and since the championship last year, I wouldn't say that pointing this out is poor mouthing or talking down the county's chances, tis just a fact unfortunately.
Quote from: mouview on April 14, 2009, 07:04:13 PM
In my usual delusional state I still think Galway are in the top 2/3 teams about, I wouldn't fear for their chances against the likes of Derry or Tyrone to a lesser extent and with a fair wind behind them they could probably even beat regular bogey teams Cork and Dublin this year. Trouble is Kerry are so far and away the best team in the game (miles ahead of Tyrone I have to say) that unless someone removes them out of their way first Galway once again have no chance of Sam this year. Galway have definitely improved under Sammon and perhaps don't rely on Meehan to quite the extent that some believe; however Sammon is still a bit old-fashioned IMHO and doesn't seem to recognize that a tactical approach rather than outright football is needed against Kerry. There must also now be serious questions regarding his judgement about some players, most particularly the continued inclusion of Matt Clancy who was dreadful again last Sunday. On a wider issue, why have the better players from the Minor team 2 years ago not been brought through? Only Conroy is there at the moment, though Fahy and Forde are both injured. This is an area that the hurling counterparts regularly neglect.
In summary, I'd even back our hurlers to beat KK quicker than our footballers to overcome Kerry.
Based on what? To many counties let themselves get beat before the ball is even thrown in when they're playing Kerry.
Well, based on the fact that they've already beaten Tyrone in this year's league campaign and have comfortably reached the final unbeaten.
TBH Derry haven't the goolies for it, neither have Mayo or Dublin...There are a few counties about there with unbelievable talent but when it's put up to them in a championship match the simply haven't the goolies for it...Galway, Kerry and Tyrone are ahead of the rest...
Ulster - Tyrone
Leinster - Kildare
Munster - Kerry in a 2 horse race with Cork
Connaught - Galway in a 2 horse race with Mayo
Quote from: illdecide on April 14, 2009, 11:49:24 PM
TBH Derry haven't the goolies for it, neither have Mayo or Dublin...There are a few counties about there with unbelievable talent but when it's put up to them in a championship match the simply haven't the goolies for it...Galway, Kerry and Tyrone are ahead of the rest...
Ulster - Tyrone
Leinster - Kildare
Munster - Kerry in a 2 horse race with Cork
Connaught - Galway in a 2 horse race with Mayo
On what basis are you tipping Kildare to win Leinster and how can you claim Galway are ahead of the rest...
If we are talking forward lines then Dublin are easily one of the top forward lines going...
Alan Brogan... Bernard Brogan... NOTHING ELSE!
Galway, Derry, Tyrone, Monaghan, Cork, Kerry... are all ahead of the Dubs in the forward stakes! Dublin will suffer this year and it will take a while for Gilroy to bed in. The league hasn't been great to them!
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on April 14, 2009, 06:02:21 PM
Quote from: galwayman on April 14, 2009, 05:38:41 PM
QuoteTheir forwards are second only to Kerry's
Fiachra Breathnach, Matthew Clancy, Paul Conroy. Honest, hard working players but they are not going to rack up the scores against the top teams simple as that.
I honestly don't think the forwards are the problem. We nearly always rack up big scores. I still think we have better forwards than the vast majority of other counties. Paul Conroy is a fine young player who has been scoring regularly in the league. Nicky Joyce is hugely talented although a bit injury prone and a bit tempremental. Cormac Bane an enigma who can drift out of games but who can kick points from anywhere when given the service. Sean Armstrong maybe hasn't kicked on from his U-21 days due to injuries but again is capable if he can stay fit long enough. Fair enough guys like Breathnach and Mattie are more your honest grafters but even Mattie has been known to have an eye for goal at times. Throw in Meehan and PJ and there is more than enough there to work with. It may be that the others are now content to let Meehan do all the scoring but they are more than capable of kicking their own scores but right now it's all going through Meehan whether by accident or design.
The problem is if you don't win enough possession in the middle third of the field you are going to concede too many scores as no defence can hold out indefinitely when the opposition are winning 75% of the kickouts. The backs actually did remarkably well to hold Kerry the last day to a one point lead at half-time after they caught nearly every single kickout but you can't get away with it for 70 minutes.
It really is as simple as that. Our backs get too much criticism because of our lack of ball winning ability at midfield midfield and cannot be expected to ship such punishment. Look at how well they held out against Kerry the last day in the first half. Lost 13 out of 16 kickouts yet only conceded 5 points?
Our forwards as a unit are in top 4 in the country. Meehan is I think Cooper apart the most coveted forward in Ireland but he has support if possession is adequate.
Galway will not win an All Ireland this year IMO because of a lack of a midfield. I believe we COULD beat anyone bar Cork and Kerry. Does that mean Cork and Kerry are better than Tyrone etc? No, it means we are better suited to beating them. Tyrone are well capable of beating Kerry etc. I think its stupid that people get hung up on lists of top teams in the country and that means they'l beat the others.
Take this as an example. We could win Connaught play a qualifier in the quarters, plat Dublin in a semi, and beat Tyrone in a final. Purely hypothetical. My point is it all depends on the draw
Quote from: belleaqua on April 15, 2009, 03:27:48 AM
We could ... beat Tyrone in a final. Purely hypothetical.
Hypothetical indeed ;)
QuoteWell, based on the fact that they've already beaten Tyrone in this year's league campaign and have comfortably reached the final unbeaten.
Tyrone are the best team in the game at the minute, the fact that they are All Ireland Champions verifies this. Kerry have been the best team in the league this year, but how reflective is the league come championship?
Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on April 15, 2009, 02:56:36 AM
Quote from: illdecide on April 14, 2009, 11:49:24 PM
TBH Derry haven't the goolies for it, neither have Mayo or Dublin...There are a few counties about there with unbelievable talent but when it's put up to them in a championship match the simply haven't the goolies for it...Galway, Kerry and Tyrone are ahead of the rest...
Ulster - Tyrone
Leinster - Kildare
Munster - Kerry in a 2 horse race with Cork
Connaught - Galway in a 2 horse race with Mayo
On what basis are you tipping Kildare to win Leinster and how can you claim Galway are ahead of the rest...
If we are talking forward lines then Dublin are easily one of the top forward lines going...
On the basis of playing big championship games over the last decade, it is proven over the last 10 years or so that when it has been put up to Dublin the simply cave in and don't have the bottle for it. When they play a team in Croke park who fear them Dublin look great rattling up big scores but when a team stands up to them...now thats a different story...Don't worry your not on your own there are several counties like Dublin who have great talent but simply don't have the balls for it
Quote from: illdecide on April 15, 2009, 09:47:45 AM
Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on April 15, 2009, 02:56:36 AM
Quote from: illdecide on April 14, 2009, 11:49:24 PM
TBH Derry haven't the goolies for it, neither have Mayo or Dublin...There are a few counties about there with unbelievable talent but when it's put up to them in a championship match the simply haven't the goolies for it...Galway, Kerry and Tyrone are ahead of the rest...
Ulster - Tyrone
Leinster - Kildare
Munster - Kerry in a 2 horse race with Cork
Connaught - Galway in a 2 horse race with Mayo
On what basis are you tipping Kildare to win Leinster and how can you claim Galway are ahead of the rest...
If we are talking forward lines then Dublin are easily one of the top forward lines going...
On the basis of playing big championship games over the last decade, it is proven over the last 10 years or so that when it has been put up to Dublin the simply cave in and don't have the bottle for it. When they play a team in Croke park who fear them Dublin look great rattling up big scores but when a team stands up to them...now thats a different story...Don't worry your not on your own there are several counties like Dublin who have great talent but simply don't have the balls for it
So Dublin struggled against Tyrone/Kerry and Armagh in 02/03 with the only arberation being Mayo in 06....How is losing to one of the top 2 teams in the country every year bottling it and bar Tyrone last year and Kerry in 04 we have put it up in every game ???
Quote from: screenexile on April 15, 2009, 03:15:41 AM
Alan Brogan... Bernard Brogan... NOTHING ELSE!
Galway, Derry, Tyrone, Monaghan, Cork, Kerry... are all ahead of the Dubs in the forward stakes! Dublin will suffer this year and it will take a while for Gilroy to bed in. The league hasn't been great to them!
Top scorers in the league without the Brogans for most of it.....high scorers in every championship including against the likes of Tyrone/Kerry/Derry etc
Yes, thats what i'm trying to tell you. Dublin have some talented players and should have won All-Irelands in the last decade but when your playing one of the top teams and your matching them for 45-50 mins then when the stakes are raised and it is put up to Dublin you don't have the belly for it and cave in...The stats don't lie and i'm not getting any satisfaction from saying this but i believe it to be true...
Quote from: illdecide on April 15, 2009, 11:35:26 AM
Yes, thats what i'm trying to tell you. Dublin have some talented players and should have won All-Irelands in the last decade but when your playing one of the top teams and your matching them for 45-50 mins then when the stakes are raised and it is put up to Dublin you don't have the belly for it and cave in...The stats don't lie and i'm not getting any satisfaction from saying this but i believe it to be true...
Yes but my question is why you rated Kildare to win Leinster and Galway as being ahead of Dublin...as for the caving in did Kerry cave in every year they lost or did Tyrone cave in every year they lose?? Some teams just aren't good enough and its not a case of caving in its more a case of not having as good a set of players..
Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on April 15, 2009, 11:38:41 AM
Quote from: illdecide on April 15, 2009, 11:35:26 AM
Yes, thats what i'm trying to tell you. Dublin have some talented players and should have won All-Irelands in the last decade but when your playing one of the top teams and your matching them for 45-50 mins then when the stakes are raised and it is put up to Dublin you don't have the belly for it and cave in...The stats don't lie and i'm not getting any satisfaction from saying this but i believe it to be true...
Yes but my question is why you rated Kildare to win Leinster and Galway as being ahead of Dublin...as for the caving in did Kerry cave in every year they lost or did Tyrone cave in every year they lose?? Some teams just aren't good enough and its not a case of caving in its more a case of not having as good a set of players..
Exactly, when you cut through all the bullshit (and we all engage in it) about tactics, training, etc. the fact is 90% of the time the better team will win, and when teams of similar standards meet, a bit of luck, a big performance from one or two players, or taking your chances will decide the game. I can't remember the last time the AI wasn't won by a team most would regard in the top 3 or 4 in Ireland.
im the 'big three' are now Kery Cork and Tyrone
Next Dublin , Monaghan, Derry
After that its armagh, kildare, galway, mayo, donegal (great talent) ....
in my reckoning anyhow
I'd say that although Dublin are having huge difficulty in finding their feet, they have the talent to be in the next level - unless they struggle to get that talent transferred to the field of play (a la Derry over the past 10 years) then they will simply put up a decent show but not actually win.
Monaghan can beat anyone on a given day, but with such a small panel will struggle if they hit any injuries.
Galways havent been 'found out' as such as the galweigans didnt tout them as some as the media did
galway have v good forward talent (imo meehan best in the country - way better then cooper), but as the westie lads mentioned are deficient in midfield and maybe in def...)
Quote from: screenexile on April 15, 2009, 03:15:41 AM
Alan Brogan... Bernard Brogan... NOTHING ELSE!
Galway, Derry, Tyrone, Monaghan, Cork, Kerry... are all ahead of the Dubs in the forward stakes! Dublin will suffer this year and it will take a while for Gilroy to bed in. The league hasn't been great to them!
LaughableI've heavily critical of Dublin but scoring isn't a problem -keeping them out is. A resume Screen
Derry have the 2 bradleys and ahem ,ahem ahem ............................................ok we'll leave that one.
Monaghan have freeman and woods and ahem..............................................ok we'll leave that one as well.
Galway have Michael Meehan and Joyce and ahem............................................. we'll leave that one as well.
Cork is all potential at the moment . The only proven scorers they have under championship conditions are. donncha o connor and goulding. Kerrigan has yet to play championship football , Masters doesn't start regularly anymore. Hayes has never been a regular. Colm O Neill and Co -too early to say.
Armagh have clarke-mc donnell and no-one else.
So it looks to me Dublin have the same as everyone else of the 2nd tier in terms of marquee forwards
By the way don't attempt to give us the Joe Brolly analysis where Derry are all-ireland contenders every year and have all these brillaint players that no-one has heard of and are continually shown up in the championship as not being good enough. Without the Bradleys you have nothing up front. End of story.
Galway have nicky joyce and armstrong - but too wishy washy at championship level to be considered marquee forwards
Dublin have connolly and a few others in the same boat
Monaghan have hanratty-
Cork have masters/hayes etc in that boat as well
Derry- I'd struggle to think of even another derry forward in the above boat. Muldoon and Doherty are essentially midfielders. Paul Murphy maybe at 11 has a decent left peg.
Kerry and tyrone is a no brainer - even a geriatic could figure that one out. They have 6-7 reliable scoring forwards each and thats why they win all-irelands.
to be fair Indiana
I think Kerry have 4 as have tyrone
coper, donaghy, walsh and declan osullivan - would only count sheehan from frees not from play
tyrone have
Stephen oneill, mccullagh, tommy mcguigan and
cavanagh (more of a forward running third midf imo - where he seems to get his scores and not as a FF)
I dont think that any team can have too many out and out scoring forwards in a balanced side (as mad as that sounds) you need work horses to win breaking ball (eg dooher and galvin - who can both score but its not their bread and butter role) and create scores/supply to ff line - that does the damage
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 15, 2009, 12:47:37 PM
to be fair Indiana
I think Kerry have 4 as have tyrone
coper, donaghy, walsh and declan osullivan - would only count sheehan from frees not from play
tyrone have
Stephen oneill, mccullagh, tommy mcguigan and
cavanagh (more of a forward running third midf imo - where he seems to get his scores and not as a FF)
I dont think that any team can have too many out and out scoring forwards in a balanced side (as mad as that sounds) you need work horses to win breaking ball (eg dooher and galvin - who can both score but its not their bread and butter role) and create scores/supply to ff line - that does the damage
Tommy McGuigan? I assume you mean Brian and only when he was at his best. He was average last year and Tommy is average full stop, he had a shocker against Mayo in last years qualifier and in no way could be classed a top forward. IMO Tyrone have Kavanagh and O'Neill as marquee forwards, McCullogh is nowhere near the Cooper/Meehan level. Tyrone's secret is spreading the scores and getting the likes of Dooher, McGinley, Davy Harte and even Gormley, from time to time, to chip in.
The difference between kerry/tyrone and the rest is simple- they have half forwards who can score regularly.
Derry/Dublin/Monaghan/Armagh/Cork /Galway don't. They have guys who can do it on an inconsistent basis. But not with any regularity-hence the reason they don't win all-irelands.
No Galway haven't been found out, what has been confirmed about this team is that we have no midfield which is what every Galway person on here has been saying since last year, and the simple fact is until we find a couple of midfielders we're going nowhere. Surely there has to be a couple of half decent midfielders in the county, one thing is for certain, Joe, Barry and Niall Coleman, no matter what kind of combination is used, are not able to compete against the likes of Dara O'Se.
Poor Mulligan doesn't even get a mention!
Tommy McGuigan scored regularly last year and this year will see if Brian can get back to where he was, but again he was never a 5 points a game man. Tyrone potentially this year could have a forward line containing McCullagh, SON, Mulligan, Tommy and Cavanagh who will all score - factor in the like of Penrose or Colm Cavanagh who can take a score.
Kerry have the Gooch, Donaghey and the O'Sullivans who will score regularly.
Both these teams have forwards who will consistently deliver, and alongside that they have midfielders and defenders who are equally as comfortable at taking scores. This is where the difference is.
Galway will do fine so long as someone else takes care of Kerry for them ;D
Quote from: OirthearMhaigheo on April 15, 2009, 01:21:32 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 15, 2009, 12:47:37 PM
to be fair Indiana
I think Kerry have 4 as have tyrone
coper, donaghy, walsh and declan osullivan - would only count sheehan from frees not from play
tyrone have
Stephen oneill, mccullagh, tommy mcguigan and
cavanagh (more of a forward running third midf imo - where he seems to get his scores and not as a FF)
I dont think that any team can have too many out and out scoring forwards in a balanced side (as mad as that sounds) you need work horses to win breaking ball (eg dooher and galvin - who can both score but its not their bread and butter role) and create scores/supply to ff line - that does the damage
Tommy McGuigan? I assume you mean Brian and only when he was at his best. He was average last year and Tommy is average full stop, he had a shocker against Mayo in last years qualifier and in no way could be classed a top forward. IMO Tyrone have Kavanagh and O'Neill as marquee forwards, McCullogh is nowhere near the Cooper/Meehan level. Tyrone's secret is spreading the scores and getting the likes of Dooher, McGinley, Davy Harte and even Gormley, from time to time, to chip in.
yep- tommy mcguigan
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 15, 2009, 03:07:20 PM
Quote from: OirthearMhaigheo on April 15, 2009, 01:21:32 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 15, 2009, 12:47:37 PM
to be fair Indiana
I think Kerry have 4 as have tyrone
coper, donaghy, walsh and declan osullivan - would only count sheehan from frees not from play
tyrone have
Stephen oneill, mccullagh, tommy mcguigan and
cavanagh (more of a forward running third midf imo - where he seems to get his scores and not as a FF)
I dont think that any team can have too many out and out scoring forwards in a balanced side (as mad as that sounds) you need work horses to win breaking ball (eg dooher and galvin - who can both score but its not their bread and butter role) and create scores/supply to ff line - that does the damage
Tommy McGuigan? I assume you mean Brian and only when he was at his best. He was average last year and Tommy is average full stop, he had a shocker against Mayo in last years qualifier and in no way could be classed a top forward. IMO Tyrone have Kavanagh and O'Neill as marquee forwards, McCullogh is nowhere near the Cooper/Meehan level. Tyrone's secret is spreading the scores and getting the likes of Dooher, McGinley, Davy Harte and even Gormley, from time to time, to chip in.
yep- tommy mcguigan
not the first cousin of a top forward, but he is the brother of one!
Quote from: OirthearMhaigheo on April 15, 2009, 03:26:04 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 15, 2009, 03:07:20 PM
Quote from: OirthearMhaigheo on April 15, 2009, 01:21:32 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 15, 2009, 12:47:37 PM
to be fair Indiana
I think Kerry have 4 as have tyrone
coper, donaghy, walsh and declan osullivan - would only count sheehan from frees not from play
tyrone have
Stephen oneill, mccullagh, tommy mcguigan and
cavanagh (more of a forward running third midf imo - where he seems to get his scores and not as a FF)
I dont think that any team can have too many out and out scoring forwards in a balanced side (as mad as that sounds) you need work horses to win breaking ball (eg dooher and galvin - who can both score but its not their bread and butter role) and create scores/supply to ff line - that does the damage
Tommy McGuigan? I assume you mean Brian and only when he was at his best. He was average last year and Tommy is average full stop, he had a shocker against Mayo in last years qualifier and in no way could be classed a top forward. IMO Tyrone have Kavanagh and O'Neill as marquee forwards, McCullogh is nowhere near the Cooper/Meehan level. Tyrone's secret is spreading the scores and getting the likes of Dooher, McGinley, Davy Harte and even Gormley, from time to time, to chip in.
yep- tommy mcguigan
not the first cousin of a top forward, but he is the brother of one!
...and the son of one ! ! !
tommy is a scoring forward, wasnt at the races v may-o last year but in most other games, his scoring from play as well as frees kept tyrone winning through qualifiers - maybe the tyroneies would like to comment
brian mcguigan imo is not a scoring forward, but is a great passer and man to set up scores.
Disagree brian mc guigan is well capable of scoring off each foot. I've watched extensive videos of tyrone for my own benefit and pretty much up to 2005 he was scoring in every game. kicked a couple of crackers against kerry in the 2005 final if I recall.
Would not say we have been found out. It has been well known that Galway have major issues at midfield for the last couple of years. At the moment, I see the Galway team looking like this come champioship:
1. Faherty
2. Coyne
3. Hanley
5. D.Burke
Here, I think you have the best full back in the country and two very good corner backs.
5. Bradshaw
6. Blake
7. Mullahy
By all accounts Blake was poor against Kerry and he was poor against Mayo. His lack of pace is a major negative for him. I can see Declan Meehan coming in here for Mullahy too. Bradshaw is guaranteed to start as he seems to be a favourite under Sammon, How he wasnt taken off against Mayo was beyond belief!
We have plenty of options in the backs, players like Sice, Fitzgerald & Dec Meehan are not on this team but could all offer something.
8. Cullinane
9. Bergin
Midfield is the major concern because there is no other options than these 2 (Niall Coleman, Mark Lydon & Gary O'Donnell will not improve things). The problem is currently highlighted even more as Bergin isnt playing particularly well. I do not think Bradshaw is big enough for midfield. Same with Blake who was tried there when Ford was manager. I genuninely cannot see what we can do to improve this area. Someone suggested that Ford should have tried Fitzgerald there against Kerry. Not sure it would work but it would be something different
10. Armstrong
11. P.Joyce
12. Bane / Clancy
Was surprised that Armstrong was left out on the wing for the entire league. Would have been intersting to see how himself & Meehan got on together inside.
13. Conroy
14. M.Meehan
15. N.Joyce
Maybe it woule make sense to switch Joyce and Armstrong but Meehan is unstoppable at the moment. Problem is getting the ball to him enough. Conroy will have to play as a third midfielder.
Biggest disappointment of the league for me was that despite out obvious failings at midfield, We continue to kick the ball out down on top of them. Why not try some variation. Dublin have master kickouts to the wing where Shane Ryan gathers the ball with ease. Last weekend, Donegal also varied their kickouts quite well. Why not try something like this???
I really hope that they dont start loading the half forward line with midfielder, like Lydon, Joyce, Coleman because it never works and you just lose the balance of the team. It is an easy trap to fal into. If Conroy is playing as a thrid midfielder, then there should be three forwards in the half forward line!!!
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 15, 2009, 04:13:45 PM
Quote from: OirthearMhaigheo on April 15, 2009, 03:26:04 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 15, 2009, 03:07:20 PM
Quote from: OirthearMhaigheo on April 15, 2009, 01:21:32 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 15, 2009, 12:47:37 PM
to be fair Indiana
I think Kerry have 4 as have tyrone
coper, donaghy, walsh and declan osullivan - would only count sheehan from frees not from play
tyrone have
Stephen oneill, mccullagh, tommy mcguigan and
cavanagh (more of a forward running third midf imo - where he seems to get his scores and not as a FF)
I dont think that any team can have too many out and out scoring forwards in a balanced side (as mad as that sounds) you need work horses to win breaking ball (eg dooher and galvin - who can both score but its not their bread and butter role) and create scores/supply to ff line - that does the damage
Tommy McGuigan? I assume you mean Brian and only when he was at his best. He was average last year and Tommy is average full stop, he had a shocker against Mayo in last years qualifier and in no way could be classed a top forward. IMO Tyrone have Kavanagh and O'Neill as marquee forwards, McCullogh is nowhere near the Cooper/Meehan level. Tyrone's secret is spreading the scores and getting the likes of Dooher, McGinley, Davy Harte and even Gormley, from time to time, to chip in.
yep- tommy mcguigan
not the first cousin of a top forward, but he is the brother of one!
...and the son of one ! ! !
tommy is a scoring forward, wasnt at the races v may-o last year but in most other games, his scoring from play as well as frees kept tyrone winning through qualifiers - maybe the tyroneies would like to comment
brian mcguigan imo is not a scoring forward, but is a great passer and man to set up scores.
Ah no Lynchboy, I hear what you're saying, he is decent player. I just thought the initial point was not many counties have more than one or two top class scoring forwards, like a Meehan or a Cooper. For me Tommy McGuigan does not deserve to be classed as being in the same category as the likes of them, O'Neill or Kavanagh. We may have to agree to disagree on that one!
QuoteBradshaw is guaranteed to start as he seems to be a favourite under Sammon, How he wasnt taken off against Mayo was beyond belief
Bradshaw overall has had a very good league and even had a very good first half against Mayo. Unfortunately he gave two loose passes in the first few minutes of the second half against Mayo which cost us 1-1. He's young though and will learn from it.
QuoteBiggest disappointment of the league for me was that despite out obvious failings at midfield, We continue to kick the ball out down on top of them. Why not try some variation. Dublin have master kickouts to the wing where Shane Ryan gathers the ball with ease. Last weekend, Donegal also varied their kickouts quite well. Why not try something like this???
They'll have to come up with something because just hoofing it straight down the middle isn't going to work. Tyrone don't have ball fielding giants in midfield yet they still always win enough possession to win games. Mainly from breaking ball.
Bradshaw is one of the best young footballers in Ireland. An absolute Rolls Royce of a player.
Quote
Bradshaw overall has had a very good league and even had a very good first half against Mayo. Unfortunately he gave two loose passes in the first few minutes of the second half against Mayo which cost us 1-1. He's young though and will learn from it.
He was excellent in all the matches I saw except for the Mayo match where he was very poor for the entire match, even in the first half when Galway were very much on top. The thing that worries me about Sammon is that if Coyne of Mullahy had been playing that badly, I am fairly sure they would have been taken off. I suspect he has favourites (Well he obviously does as people have pointed to the example of Breathnach on this board many times). And I dont think that is good for a manager, It impairs your judgement.
Actually, I would be interested to know how Bradshaw did on Declan O'Sullivan on Sunday. I havent seen any back do a good job on him in years!
In many ways, I think out team is a lot less settled now than it was at the beginning of the league. The league has brought about a lot of questions, thats for sure.
John Miskella did very well on Declan o Sullivan in the Cork and Kerry matches last year. Sean Boylan made special mention of it on TV3 and Miskella made the International rules panel afterwards.
Quote from: mckieran on April 15, 2009, 08:19:30 PM
Quote
Bradshaw overall has had a very good league and even had a very good first half against Mayo. Unfortunately he gave two loose passes in the first few minutes of the second half against Mayo which cost us 1-1. He's young though and will learn from it.
He was excellent in all the matches I saw except for the Mayo match where he was very poor for the entire match, even in the first half when Galway were very much on top. The thing that worries me about Sammon is that if Coyne of Mullahy had been playing that badly, I am fairly sure they would have been taken off. I suspect he has favourites (Well he obviously does as people have pointed to the example of Breathnach on this board many times). And I dont think that is good for a manager, It impairs your judgement.
Actually, I would be interested to know how Bradshaw did on Declan O'Sullivan on Sunday. I havent seen any back do a good job on him in years!
In many ways, I think out team is a lot less settled now than it was at the beginning of the league. The league has brought about a lot of questions, thats for sure.
Well the thing with Bradshaw against Mayo was that in the 1st half he played most of it in the half forwards as he followed Ronaldson who played as a sweeper. He got caught immediately after the start of the 2nd but then so did the rest of the Galway team, all the supporters and the 3 dogs outside the stadium with Mayo's change in pace, ferocity and attitude.
It's great to see most people writing off Galway yet everyone to a man still expects them to win Connacht easily. I'm sure thats exactly the way Johnno would like it. While I don't expect us to beat Galway in Salthill I wouldn't write us off. We were only a point of Galway last year after giving them a 5 or 6 point head start and with our defence all over the place. Mayo have improved from last year. Overall the defence is tighter and we found a full back and have options at full forward.
Having said all that Galway in Salthill must be favourites but I don't think there is a hell of a lot between the two teams.
I know a player from Moycullen who said once he heard Sammon had the job that Bradshaw was a cert to play because he loved him at St. Mary's.
I still don't understand how we went the entire league and mif-field is still a major problem which it looks like we have made no attempt to resolve.
Quote from: myball22 on April 16, 2009, 03:42:34 PM
I know a player from Moycullen who said once he heard Sammon had the job that Bradshaw was a cert to play because he loved him at St. Mary's.
In fairness Bradshaw is the least of our problems. I wish we had a few more like him. Fiachra Breathnach is another thing altogether. Certainly though Sammon seems to have his favourites. Niall Coyne being another. Not that he's done badly but he always seems to get a game unlike Kieran Fitz or Gary Sice who usually warm the bench no matter what.
QuoteI still don't understand how we went the entire league and mif-field is still a major problem which it looks like we have made no attempt to resolve.
I'm not sure if no attempt was made. Bergin and Cullinane usually played. Gary O'Donnell was tried. Mark Lydon was tried. We just seem to have a dearth of quality midfielders at the moment. Maybe Eddie Hoare would have got a chance except I think he's been nursing a back injury since the Intermediate All-Ireland final. Beyond that who can you try? Bradshaw and Conroy? Two very good young footballers but asking a lot of them to step into midfield so young but maybe it was worth a go earlier in the league. Too late now to experiment.
QuoteNiall Coyne being another. Not that he's done badly but he always seems to get a game unlike Kieran Fitz or Gary Sice who usually warm the bench no matter what.
I dont think Coyne is a favorite. He had to play a lot of good matches before he established himself as a regular under Sammon. Gary Sice has had plenty of chances as well. He was brought straight into the team at number 5 after Corofin were knocked out, not really sure of your point here.
Agree about Fitzgerald though. Did he get any game time during the league?
Quote from: OirthearMhaigheo on April 15, 2009, 01:21:32 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 15, 2009, 12:47:37 PM
to be fair Indiana
I think Kerry have 4 as have tyrone
coper, donaghy, walsh and declan osullivan - would only count sheehan from frees not from play
tyrone have
Stephen oneill, mccullagh, tommy mcguigan and
cavanagh (more of a forward running third midf imo - where he seems to get his scores and not as a FF)
I dont think that any team can have too many out and out scoring forwards in a balanced side (as mad as that sounds) you need work horses to win breaking ball (eg dooher and galvin - who can both score but its not their bread and butter role) and create scores/supply to ff line - that does the damage
Tommy McGuigan? I assume you mean Brian and only when he was at his best. He was average last year and Tommy is average full stop, he had a shocker against Mayo in last years qualifier and in no way could be classed a top forward. IMO Tyrone have Kavanagh and O'Neill as marquee forwards, McCullogh is nowhere near the Cooper/Meehan level. Tyrone's secret is spreading the scores and getting the likes of Dooher, McGinley, Davy Harte and even Gormley, from time to time, to chip in.
Tommy McGuigan was poor against Mayo for the very simple reason that he was being man-marked by one Keith Higgins. That tells you how high a threat he was seen to be by Johnno and also why he never got into the game.
Micheál Meehan can probably expect to be seeing Keith this summer at some stage allthough we might start Caff on him.
Quote from: muppet on April 17, 2009, 11:32:00 PM
Quote from: OirthearMhaigheo on April 15, 2009, 01:21:32 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 15, 2009, 12:47:37 PM
to be fair Indiana
I think Kerry have 4 as have tyrone
coper, donaghy, walsh and declan osullivan - would only count sheehan from frees not from play
tyrone have
Stephen oneill, mccullagh, tommy mcguigan and
cavanagh (more of a forward running third midf imo - where he seems to get his scores and not as a FF)
I dont think that any team can have too many out and out scoring forwards in a balanced side (as mad as that sounds) you need work horses to win breaking ball (eg dooher and galvin - who can both score but its not their bread and butter role) and create scores/supply to ff line - that does the damage
Tommy McGuigan? I assume you mean Brian and only when he was at his best. He was average last year and Tommy is average full stop, he had a shocker against Mayo in last years qualifier and in no way could be classed a top forward. IMO Tyrone have Kavanagh and O'Neill as marquee forwards, McCullogh is nowhere near the Cooper/Meehan level. Tyrone's secret is spreading the scores and getting the likes of Dooher, McGinley, Davy Harte and even Gormley, from time to time, to chip in.
Micheál Meehan can probably expect to be seeing Keith this summer at some stage allthough we might start Caff on him.
Sure we'll see. Higgins has done fairly well on Meehan in the past although Meehan has only started to really blosson in the last year as a top class intercounty forward. Plus most of their meetings have been in the corner and Meehan at full-forward is a different beast altogether which is why everyone wanted him out of the corner for years. Hopefully he can keep Higgins occupied for a while.
Like a lot of things if you get enough ball into Meehan he's pretty much unmarkable. Whether he gets enough ball is another matter entirely. Two lads have a nice little rivalry built up though. I have a feeling by July we might see a Meehan and PJ inside line for Galway.
Unfortunately we have only one Keith Higgins though. :(
QuoteLike a lot of things if you get enough ball into Meehan he's pretty much unmarkable. Whether he gets enough ball is another matter entirely. Two lads have a nice little rivalry built up though. I have a feeling by July we might see a Meehan and PJ inside line for Galway.
Ray Silke is suggesting the same in the Galway Advertiser but the question then is: Who plays centre forward? I think Joyce is our best (Our only?) realistic option there. I dont think Matt Clancy, Sean Armstrong, Cormac Bane etc. would make centre forwards at this level
Also, How would Meehan do if Joyce was playing inside beside him. There was a view held by many that when Meehan first came on the scene playing at no. 13 that he was hindered by playing beside Joyce.
Quote from: mckieran on April 19, 2009, 11:11:02 PM
QuoteLike a lot of things if you get enough ball into Meehan he's pretty much unmarkable. Whether he gets enough ball is another matter entirely. Two lads have a nice little rivalry built up though. I have a feeling by July we might see a Meehan and PJ inside line for Galway.
Ray Silke is suggesting the same in the Galway Advertiser but the question then is: Who plays centre forward? I think Joyce is our best (Our only?) realistic option there. I dont think Matt Clancy, Sean Armstrong, Cormac Bane etc. would make centre forwards at this level
Also, How would Meehan do if Joyce was playing inside beside him. There was a view held by many that when Meehan first came on the scene playing at no. 13 that he was hindered by playing beside Joyce.
You would think that would make sense. I've not seen a whole lot of Galway, but the match they lost to Kerry last year seemed to be in large part due to the fact that Kerry's HB line could attack at will, PJ is great but at his age (or ever) did he assume the defensive part of the game that any good modern HF needs?
Quote from: INDIANA on April 15, 2009, 01:24:18 PM
The difference between kerry/tyrone and the rest is simple- they have half forwards who can score regularly.
Derry/Dublin/Monaghan/Armagh/Cork /Galway don't. They have guys who can do it on an inconsistent basis. But not with any regularity-hence the reason they don't win all-irelands.
I agree with what your saying to a certain degree but think that it is only one of the factors the other teams listed dont win All Irelands. When all the factors are considered it basically boils down to "Nobody outside of Tyrone or Kerry have been able to win a recent All ireland as none of them are good enough" (or as good as those 2.) And I have seen nothing so far this year to make me think the gap will be closed, although I would have to say it is very early on and as a barometer for championship success, the league is about as accurate as an epileptic raver pissing in a milk bottle.
But it must also be remembered that we are talking about the 2 best teams of the last decade by quite some stretch.
IMO the above list plus Mayo are the only ones with any chance of breaking the recent duopoly of winners (and genuine contenders)