Considering the amount of people that were on the demo on Saturday, I doubt many people got to see Gerry A attempting to cosy up to his former comrades in Official Sinn Fein, the Workers Party, Democratic Left, Labour at the SF Ard Fheis. Certainly if you read any of Sir Tony O'Reilly's rags you'll not know anything about it, but that's another story.
Anyhow, regardless of your political sympathies, it looks as though the "economic illiterates" may be finally attempting to mark out some territory for themselves as a left alternative in Irish politics. In summary, after attacking "Tweedledum" and "Tweedledee" (FF and FG), the bearded one called for a new alliance of the left, including Labour, SF and the Greens (after they come to their senses).
A few years ago this would have been fanciful stuff but given the circumstances of the day, such a coalition it's not beyond the realms of possibility. My personal view is that Irish society is not yet ready for such an alternative. We've always been a country of conservative peasants and the Celtic Tiger has only caused more people to abandon the idea of society for notions of what the economy can do for them in particular. So my question is would you support an alliance of leftist parties over the cronyism and nepotism of the conservative establishment?
I heard on Saturday, though I'm not sure if it was borne from a marching fervour, that the Greens are formulating an exit-strategy to be enacted within the next ten days.
On your point Donagh, when have we ever seen Lefties being able to agree on anything?
The words frying pan and fire are running around my head....
there needs to be a 'new workers party' set up
but it would seem that adams is looking to create an alliance alright from what I have read.
While this would be strong right now, I would expect ff to recover votes and voters in the not too distant future (just before an election) - maybe this is adams firing a shot across the bow and if the greens jump ship, sf might be asked if they are open to an alliance with ff.
That will certainly put cats among feathered friends and see who has what principles etc !
That's certainly the impression I got from it. Didn't hear the whole speech, but I believe it's on BBC iPlayer, so I'll watch it tonight in full.
This cosying up has been going on for a few years now. Labour and SF have dealt together in senate election which as part of the deal seen SFs first senator and Labour increase their quota. It has also allowed SF to use some of Labour's speaking time in the Dail which they lost when Crowe lost his seat and the Greens entered Government. I can see more cosying up to come as SF move to gather the support of the Unions which had lost much faith in Lab during Pat Rabbites FG era and the internal fall out in Lab over Lisbon. As every party in the country has slowly moved to the right over the last few years Labour have lost a lot of traditionls which SF are moving into. In order for Lab to remain the strongest of the left they must let the people know they are serious about left politics and not just be a left party propping up a right Government. Looking at the latest polls and the current economic situation there has never been a better opertunity for left politics to take control in Ireland. Lab need to realise this and if they are serious about left politics they need to lead the way to unite the left and put an end to 'tweedledee and tweedledum'.
It would be like escaping from the Sopranos only to be captured by the Three Stooges.
QuoteI would be like escaping from the Sopranos only to be captured by the Three Stooges.
Nah, it would be like escaping from the Marx Brothers (see Duck Soup), only to be captured by the Three Stooges. Don't be dissing the Sopranos - they'd never have got us in this mess.
I watched the whole thing on the BBC website on saturday, while we didnt learn a whole lot about what they are for or what they plan to do, we were reminded time after time what they were against. But then, isn't that the norm. You'd also have to wonder how much of a future will Gerry have in SF. Some are saying its time he shuffled off the stage and that for them to have a chance in the Rep. they need a new face and a new leader.
If the Shinners don't have you shot the others will bore you to death.
Interesting times....
a sf labour coalition may be a short term option for some but you only have to see whats happening up here to know thats exactly what it will be short term.sf objectives are are not far away but how realistic are they?is Gerry and co just feeding patronising crap and know damm rightly nothing will come of it?when sf got involved in the day to day running of a country they are well and truly out of there depth as ruane and gildernew are proving,it's very hard to know where to turn to up here,the sdlp are not a option as they spend most of there time sniping at sf,at least down there you have options whereas alot of republicans dont here.
What exactly arethose who marched wanting too achieve?
Quote from: The GAA on February 23, 2009, 03:57:48 PM
What exactly arethose who marched wanting too achieve?
Don't feel bad about not addressing the topic - almost no one else has.
Quote from: Drumanee 1 on February 23, 2009, 03:46:26 PM
a sf labour coalition may be a short term option for some but you only have to see whats happening up here to know thats exactly what it will be short term.sf objectives are are not far away but how realistic are they?is Gerry and co just feeding patronising crap and know damm rightly nothing will come of it?when sf got involved in the day to day running of a country they are well and truly out of there depth as ruane and gildernew are proving,it's very hard to know where to turn to up here,the sdlp are not a option as they spend most of there time sniping at sf,at least down there you have options whereas alot of republicans dont here.
Some people have short memories or else unreal expectations.
10 years is a short time for the day to day running of the north to be changed to suit nationalists and unionists alike. It will take atleast twice that to fix the problems the south are now facing no matter who is in Government.
Quote from: Zapatista on February 23, 2009, 04:07:50 PM
Quote from: Drumanee 1 on February 23, 2009, 03:46:26 PM
a sf labour coalition may be a short term option for some but you only have to see whats happening up here to know thats exactly what it will be short term.sf objectives are are not far away but how realistic are they?is Gerry and co just feeding patronising crap and know damm rightly nothing will come of it?when sf got involved in the day to day running of a country they are well and truly out of there depth as ruane and gildernew are proving,it's very hard to know where to turn to up here,the sdlp are not a option as they spend most of there time sniping at sf,at least down there you have options whereas alot of republicans dont here.
Some people have short memories or else unreal expectations.
10 years is a short time for the day to day running of the north to be changed to suit nationalists and unionists alike. It will take atleast twice that to fix the problems the south are now facing no matter who is in Government.
but if you take away the politics so to speak and look at the performance of sf in the day to day running of the north it leaves alot to be desired,ruane has left our education in a complete mess and gildermew anit far behind
Quote from: Donagh on February 23, 2009, 04:00:14 PM
Quote from: The GAA on February 23, 2009, 03:57:48 PM
What exactly arethose who marched wanting too achieve?
Don't feel bad about not addressing the topic - almost no one else has.
I don't feel bad. i only address topics i'm interested in. Gerry adams' laughable musings on the economy don't interest me in the least. Catriona ruane would know more about it.
Quote from: The GAA on February 23, 2009, 04:20:57 PM
I don't feel bad. i only address topics i'm interested in. Gerry adams' laughable musings on the economy don't interest me in the least. Catriona ruane would know more about it.
Just as well then as the topic is on a possible 'left alignment' not Adams or Ruane.
Apologies - i'll leave you to it. I just get overcome with the urge to scream when i see incompetent politicians mentioned
What might be relevent is that a coalition including SF and the greens and packaged as an alternative to the status quo on economic grounds could only be viewed as having comedy value.
Quote from: Drumanee 1 on February 23, 2009, 04:14:36 PM
Quote from: Zapatista on February 23, 2009, 04:07:50 PM
Quote from: Drumanee 1 on February 23, 2009, 03:46:26 PM
a sf labour coalition may be a short term option for some but you only have to see whats happening up here to know thats exactly what it will be short term.sf objectives are are not far away but how realistic are they?is Gerry and co just feeding patronising crap and know damm rightly nothing will come of it?when sf got involved in the day to day running of a country they are well and truly out of there depth as ruane and gildernew are proving,it's very hard to know where to turn to up here,the sdlp are not a option as they spend most of there time sniping at sf,at least down there you have options whereas alot of republicans dont here.
Some people have short memories or else unreal expectations.
10 years is a short time for the day to day running of the north to be changed to suit nationalists and unionists alike. It will take atleast twice that to fix the problems the south are now facing no matter who is in Government.
but if you take away the politics so to speak and look at the performance of sf in the day to day running of the north it leaves alot to be desired,ruane has left our education in a complete mess and gildermew anit far behind
I see, you want to take the politics away ::) I think I know what yiou mean though, it's not a short memory you have but unreal expectations.
Education is in a mess as Ruane is trying to take the politics of division out of it. She is probably ahead of her time.
Quote from: The GAA on February 23, 2009, 04:40:01 PM
What might be relevent is that a coalition including SF and the greens and packaged as an alternative to the status quo on economic grounds could only be viewed as having comedy value.
What's your alternative?
Quote from: The GAA on February 23, 2009, 04:40:01 PM
What might be relevent is that a coalition including SF and the greens and packaged as an alternative to the status quo on economic grounds could only be viewed as having comedy value.
The monster raving loony party.
well, to be honest I dont think Labour will join with Sinn Féin. They have gained ground on FF and FG lately and I think that some would reckon that an alliance with Sinn Féin would do them more damage than good. Perhaps Labour/Green alliance is more a plausible left alternative.
Quote from: Zapatista on February 23, 2009, 04:42:54 PM
Quote from: The GAA on February 23, 2009, 04:40:01 PM
What might be relevent is that a coalition including SF and the greens and packaged as an alternative to the status quo on economic grounds could only be viewed as having comedy value.
What's your alternative?
There has to be one?
Quote from: thejuice on February 23, 2009, 04:43:54 PM
well, to be honest I dont think Labour will join with Sinn Féin. They have gained ground on FF and FG lately and I think that some would reckon that an alliance with Sinn Féin would do them more damage than good. Perhaps Labour/Green alliance is more a plausible left alternative.
Wouldn't be enough to form Govenment though. Anything without SF will be a right Government proped up by the greens-indos or Labour
Quote from: thejuice on February 23, 2009, 04:43:54 PM
Perhaps Labour/Green alliance is more a plausible left alternative.
If they want to be in opposition for ever and a day.
The only alternative to a FFBuilder led Govt is a FG led one. :-\
At least it would take one load of overfed snouts out of the trough for a while but would it make any more difference?
Talk of left alliances and power etc is just that - talk.
Labour/Left (not including SF here) wont get any seats in the 3 Ulster Counties,1 in Connacht, prob 1 in Munster outside Cork/Limerick City,3 or 4 in Leinster outside Dublin so out of about 68 Dublin/Cork/Limerick East seats they would need to win at least 45 to make any difference.
Best case scenario for SF - 2 Ulster, 1 Connacht(unlikely) 2 or 3 in Munster,3 Leinster and 4 Dublin = 11.
Sadly looks like the Mayoite in the blueshirt is the only alternative Taoiseach to Biffo/replacement.
Quote from: Zapatista on February 23, 2009, 04:42:26 PM
Quote from: Drumanee 1 on February 23, 2009, 04:14:36 PM
Quote from: Zapatista on February 23, 2009, 04:07:50 PM
Quote from: Drumanee 1 on February 23, 2009, 03:46:26 PM
a sf labour coalition may be a short term option for some but you only have to see whats happening up here to know thats exactly what it will be short term.sf objectives are are not far away but how realistic are they?is Gerry and co just feeding patronising crap and know damm rightly nothing will come of it?when sf got involved in the day to day running of a country they are well and truly out of there depth as ruane and gildernew are proving,it's very hard to know where to turn to up here,the sdlp are not a option as they spend most of there time sniping at sf,at least down there you have options whereas alot of republicans dont here.
Some people have short memories or else unreal expectations.
10 years is a short time for the day to day running of the north to be changed to suit nationalists and unionists alike. It will take atleast twice that to fix the problems the south are now facing no matter who is in Government.
but if you take away the politics so to speak and look at the performance of sf in the day to day running of the north it leaves alot to be desired,ruane has left our education in a complete mess and gildermew anit far behind
I see, you want to take the politics away ::) I think I know what yiou mean though, it's not a short memory you have but unreal expectations.
Education is in a mess as Ruane is trying to take the politics of division out of it. She is probably ahead of her time.
sorry donagh.
remember the people who used to say "no" smash this smash that,scrap that "no" again?then people asked them whats your alternative?guess what they had none,sound familiar?
Quote from: Rossfan on February 23, 2009, 05:20:38 PM
Quote from: thejuice on February 23, 2009, 04:43:54 PM
Perhaps Labour/Green alliance is more a plausible left alternative.
If they want to be in opposition for ever and a day.
The only alternative to a FFBuilder led Govt is a FG led one. :-\
At least it would take one load of overfed snouts out of the trough for a while but would it make any more difference?
Talk of left alliances and power etc is just that - talk.
Labour/Left (not including SF here) wont get any seats in the 3 Ulster Counties,1 in Connacht, prob 1 in Munster outside Cork/Limerick City,3 or 4 in Leinster outside Dublin so out of about 68 Dublin/Cork/Limerick East seats they would need to win at least 45 to make any difference.
Best case scenario for SF - 2 Ulster, 1 Connacht(unlikely) 2 or 3 in Munster,3 Leinster and 4 Dublin = 11.
Sadly looks like the Mayoite in the blueshirt is the only alternative Taoiseach to Biffo/replacement.
Even if that were the case a left alliance would represent a stronger opposition with Lab leading the opposition rather with support rather than a FF or FG lead one. As FG and FF are pretty much the same it makes the opposition weak.
Quote from: Drumanee 1 on February 23, 2009, 05:24:38 PM
sorry donagh.
remember the people who used to say "no" smash this smash that,scrap that "no" again?then people asked them whats your alternative?guess what they had none,sound familiar?
What?
Quote from: Billys Boots on February 23, 2009, 12:31:38 PM
I heard on Saturday, though I'm not sure if it was borne from a marching fervour, that the Greens are formulating an exit-strategy to be enacted within the next ten days.
On your point Donagh, when have we ever seen Lefties being able to agree on anything?
I heard a Green (dont know which) say today on the radio that replacing FF with FG would make no difference. This logic leads to a similar conclusion as the 'there is no alternative government' and the 'now is no the time for inexperience' that the media have peddled for the last decade. i.e. A perpetual Fianna Fail led Government.
If we vote in another FF Government next time we deserve to be the 3rd world country that we are becoming.
The alternative doesn't mean voting FG in successive times either. Too long with the sane Government is what got us into the particularly Irish version of the financial crisis that we have at the moment. We shouldn't make the same mistake with another party.
Sinn Féin recently said their solution to the Public Service overspend was to get the private sector to pay for it (by scrapping all tax relief and increasing high level taxes). They don't seem to understand that the private sector already pays for the Public Sector and that same private sector is rapidly getting poorer.
Even Labour try to bring modernish thinking to Left idealogy an certainly wouldn't be seen publicly to be too far Left. While it might seem timely to bang the comrades drum' as capitalism goes into meltdown, remember communism preceded it by 2 decades.
Until SF do the same I don't see them progressing beyond their traditional constituency of Republicans and protest voters.
So can we take it from the responses then that no one here apart from Zapatista would support a 'leftist' government? I guess we're still a nation of (post-industrial) peasants. We've a long way to fall yet I suspect...
Quote from: Donagh on February 23, 2009, 07:58:41 PM
So can we take it from the responses then that no one here apart from Zapatista would support a 'leftist' government? I guess we're still a nation of (post-industrial) peasants. We've a long way to fall yet I suspect...
I suppose Donagh if you offered publicly important suggestions of what such a government might do, rather than the politically more important question of who would be in power it might prove more attractive.
Policies please?
I suspect you are on a wind up mission , naughty,naughty
Quote from: Pangurban on February 23, 2009, 08:05:02 PM
I suspect you are on a wind up mission , naughty,naughty
Not true, I'm offering an opportunity to correct the public percerption that SF's only policy is to tax the f*ck out of anyone above the minimum wage.
Quote from: muppet on February 23, 2009, 08:12:18 PM
Quote from: Pangurban on February 23, 2009, 08:05:02 PM
I suspect you are on a wind up mission , naughty,naughty
Not true, I'm offering an opportunity to correct the public percerption that SF's only policy is to tax the f*ck out of anyone above the minimum wage.
I'm not trying to wind anyone up but just provoke a discussion to see if there is any willingness out there yet to take the pain which is inevitable before any real social progress can be seen in this country.
I've no idea what such a government might do, that would have to be hammered out between any potential alliance partners but I know for sure that continuing to vote in one bunch of gangsters after another but cause you 'don't see an alternative' (translated as 'hope it will improve your bank account') will see this country start to compete with Honduras for worst international government awards – where, I was reading earlier, government departments spend 96% of their budget on bureaucracy and politicians wages.
Time for a bit of patriotic action - and I don't mean by refusing to shop Bertie's supermarket in Newry.
So there should be no left wing Government untill we hear what their policys are?
Maybe they should write a new proclamation and die in a rising and we might concider it.
Would it be easier to have a look at left countries and make comparisons?
I would trust a politician with a gun far quicker than I would trust a politician with a brown envelope or one with a rose.
Very, very hard to get a Sinn Féin voter to vote for 'the sit on the fence and see what happens party' - otherwise known as Labour. It will be interesting to see what will happen come the local elections later this year. I suspect a raft of independents will get elected and then it will be a raffle as to what party ends up absorbing them in. I don't think looking further ahead than this election is worthwhile. The local elections will prove to be the barometer. If Fianna Fáil lose badly here then there will be a major reshuffle and massive PR job done prior to a general election. Old traditions still die hard for most voters here.
Quote from: Zapatista on February 23, 2009, 09:24:55 PM
So there should be no left wing Government untill we hear what their policys are?
Maybe they should write a new proclamation and die in a rising and we might concider it.
Would it be easier to have a look at left countries and make comparisons?
Not quite, I just don't think the idea would be taken seriously until potential policies were put forward.
Do me a favour muppet? Next time you get a day off have a walk down to the dole office, the socail welfare office, the hospital corrider, the court house, your local school, the beautiful Irish forests and your nearest oxfam and see where this fits into the current right wing Governmets policy.
Quote from: Zapatista on February 23, 2009, 10:06:23 PM
Do me a favour muppet? Next time you get a day off have a walk down to the dole office, the socail welfare office, the hospital corrider, the court house, your local school, the beautiful Irish forests and your nearest oxfam and see where this fits into the current right wing Governmets policy.
Spare me the usual politically motivated moral outrage.
Still not a single policy for perusal on this thread.
Universal health care. Spare me the usual excuses of not having a reason.
One policy I'd like to see is to get rid of all private hospitals. They should not exist. They are the bane of this country.
Quote from: Zapatista on February 23, 2009, 10:16:36 PM
Universal health care. Spare me the usual excuses of not having a reason.
Hey I'll do that too.
Free money and a 1 day working week for all workers.
Now how about a coherent policy that wouldn't bankrupt us immediately.
Universal Healthcare paid for by selling our Natural Gas, instead of giving it away for free, might run for example.
I'd put tighter contraints on Insurance companies. They are given far freer rein in Ireland than even the banks. While house prices are falling all over the country some of these companies are still pushing up their artifical valuations of houses and charging people extra.
Quote from: muppet on February 23, 2009, 10:19:57 PM
Quote from: Zapatista on February 23, 2009, 10:16:36 PM
Universal health care. Spare me the usual excuses of not having a reason.
Hey I'll do that too.
Free money and a 1 day working week for all workers.
Now how about a coherent policy that wouldn't bankrupt us immediately.
Universal Healthcare paid for by selling our Natural Gas, instead of giving it away for free, might run for example.
In case you haven't noticed muppet, we are bankrupt. Why would it not be coherent? How about an increase on tax and an end to health insurance?
Another one that I'd introduce is that if a multinational company, wanted to invest here they would only be allowed in if an Irish company was at the same time granted the same level of grants and incentives given out. For years this has not been a level playing pitch. Outsiders who are always, as history has shown, going to eventually pull out are always given things quicker than homegrown talent.
Quote from: Zapatista on February 23, 2009, 10:25:03 PM
Quote from: muppet on February 23, 2009, 10:19:57 PM
Quote from: Zapatista on February 23, 2009, 10:16:36 PM
Universal health care. Spare me the usual excuses of not having a reason.
Hey I'll do that too.
Free money and a 1 day working week for all workers.
Now how about a coherent policy that wouldn't bankrupt us immediately.
Universal Healthcare paid for by selling our Natural Gas, instead of giving it away for free, might run for example.
In case you haven't noticed muppet, we are bankrupt. Why would it not be coherent? How about an increase on tax and an end to health insurance?
We are not quite bankrupt, yet.
If we raise taxes now to pay for a universal health service we will default on our debt.
We will then have either the IMF or the EU running the country.
They will increase taxes to pay our debtors and will close hospitals and schools.
Populist policies are what got us into this mess. We don't need more.
Muppet if there is one thing to learn from the current shower it is how to put policy into practise. They string out the policy as long as is possible and then only dress it up for effect prior to an election. Much like they do here before a local election - all of a sudden 3 weeks before the vote all the roads are being resurfaced. A policy to shut down private hospitals would be strung out over a number of years. The doctors in them would be offered junior doctor positions in the public ones as positions became open.
Quote from: Eoghan Mag on February 23, 2009, 10:44:05 PM
Muppet if there is one thing to learn from the current shower it is how to put policy into practise. They string out the policy as long as is possible and then only dress it up for effect prior to an election. Much like they do here before a local election - all of a sudden 3 weeks before the vote all the roads are being resurfaced. A policy to shut down private hospitals would be strung out over a number of years. The doctors in them would be offered junior doctor positions in the public ones as positions became open.
Eoghan my post wasn't in response to yours.
I think Harney's co-location is treason. I am (shaking with rage just thinking about it) opposed to it. It disgusts me.
Sorry Muppet I didn't know I wasn't allowed to respond to the question!!! ;D No offence intended. ::)
In all fairness there are a lot of things policy wise that people could suggest here that are different to what is going on with the current government.
Quote from: muppet on February 23, 2009, 10:37:09 PM
We are not quite bankrupt, yet.
If we raise taxes now to pay for a universal health service we will default on our debt.
We will then have either the IMF or the EU running the country.
They will increase taxes to pay our debtors and will close hospitals and schools.
Populist policies are what got us into this mess. We don't need more.
I think you are looking for a Government to step in and fix the recession? This isn't possible. We are at a stage where we can't compete. Our reputation is in tatters. We are a toxic investment.
During the boom money was squandered and wasted on feel goods. Popular politics, criminality and unchallenged capitalism got us into this mess. The right wing thinking in Ireland went no futher than the individual capitalising on eachother with no thought given to future investment or infrastructure. This was government failure but it is also what is expected from right wing Government and made possible by a reight wing main oppostition. You maximise your profits. Rather than use the money to build a better future and an an attractive home for investment we concentrated on lining pockets and getting cash rich but socially poor. A right wing or left wing Government cannot speed up the recovery but a leftwing Government would put in place measures where we can limit our exposure to such a recession.
left wing thinking and it is what is sorely missing from Ireland during this recession.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I diagree that a jump from the right to the left is what we need. Someone said out of the frying pan into the fire and I would agree. Back to the centre and away rom the extremes would be more up my street.
I do think there are areas where left wing thinking should prevail and in fairness you mentioned one, the Health service and the 2nd I would add is education. I think cutbacks in those areas is misguided. They may need streamlining certainly so we (taxpayer) get value for money but the spend shouldn't be reduced.
However to pay for the above a realistic counter-policy needs to be put forward. Simply puting up taxes for the middle classes isn't the answer. Most of us pay 42% tax + 1% levy + 5% PRSI. If you are in the private sector you should be putting money into a pension (I pay 7%) giving a total of 55% and then I pay 21% vat on almost everything I buy.
For most of the euros I earn get 45c into my hand and of that 9.4c goes back to the Government.
We will get more taxes from the current centre-right Government so proposals to put even more on top of the are not palatable. Not for me anyway.
Quote from: Eoghan Mag on February 23, 2009, 10:55:42 PM
Sorry Muppet I didn't know I wasn't allowed to respond to the question!!! ;D No offence intended. ::)
In all fairness there are a lot of things policy wise that people could suggest here that are different to what is going on with the current government.
I wasn't offended I just thought you had picked me up wrong with regard to your suggestion of closing of private hospitals.
I have no problem with any individual spending their own money to provide a service. My problem is with the Government giving taxpayers land free to create a 2 tiered health service:
one for those who can afford the new very high cost health insurance:
and
one dumbed down poorly funded public service for the rest:
Some thoughts slighlty modified for a wider audience from an American professor which pretty much tallies with my thinking
Which Capitalism Will It Be?
by Benjamin R. Barber
Can the market system finally be made to serve us? Or will we continue to serve it?
George W. Bush argued that the crisis is "not a failure of the free-market system, and the answer is not to try to reinvent that system." But while it is going too far to declare that capitalism is dead, the philanthropist George Soros is right when he says that "there is something fundamentally wrong" with market theory.
The issue is not the death of capitalism but what kind of capitalism - standing in which relationship to culture, to democracy and to life?
It is hard to discern any movement toward a wholesale rethinking of the dominant role of the market in our society.
No one is questioning the impulse to rehabilitate the consumer market as the driver of western commerce. Economists and politicians across the spectrum continue to insist that the challenge lies in revving up inert demand.
For in an economy that has become dependent on consumerism to the tune of 70 percent of GDP, shoppers who won't shop and consumers who don't consume spell disaster. Yet it is precisely in confronting the paradox of consumerism that the struggle for capitalism's soul needs to be waged.
The crisis in global capitalism demands a revolution in spirit - fundamental change in attitudes and behavior. Reform cannot merely rush parents and kids back into the mall; it must encourage them to shop less, to save rather than spend.
Penalize carbon use by taxing gas so that it's $4 a gallon regardless of market price, curbing gas guzzlers and promoting efficient public transportation.
And how about giving producers incentives to target real needs, even where the needy are short of cash, rather than to manufacture faux needs for the wealthy because they've got the cash?
Or better yet, take in earnest that insincere MasterCard ad, and consider all the things money can't buy (most things!). Change some habits and restore the balance between body and spirit.
It's time, finally, for a Cabinet-level arts and humanities post to foster creative thinking within government as well as throughout the country. Time for serious education money to teach the young the joys and powers of imagination, creativity and culture, as doers and spectators rather than consumers.
Recreation and physical activity call for parks and biking paths rather than multiplexes and malls. Speaking of the multiplex, why has the new communications technology been left almost entirely to commerce? Its architecture is democratic, and its networking potential is deeply social. Yet for the most part, it has been put to private and commercial rather than educational and cultural uses. Its democratic and artistic possibilities need to be elaborated, even subsidized.
Of course, much of what is required cannot be leveraged by government policy alone, or by a stimulus package and new regulations over the securities and banking markets. A cultural ethos is at stake.
For far too long our primary institutions - from education and advertising to politics and entertainment - have prized consumerism above everything else, even at the price of infantilizing society. If spirit is to have a chance, they must join the revolution.
The costs of such a transformation will be steep, since they are likely to prolong the recession. Capitalists will be asked to create new markets rather than exploit and abuse old ones; to simultaneously jump-start investments and inventions that create jobs and help generate those new consumers who will buy the useful and necessary things capitalists make once they start addressing real needs (try purifying tainted water in the Third World rather than bottling tap water in the First!).
The good news is, people are already spending less, earning before buying (using those old-fashioned layaway plans) and feeling relieved at the shopping quasi-moratorium. Suddenly debit cards are the preferred plastic. Parental "gatekeepers" are rebelling against marketers who treat their 4-year-olds as consumers-to-be. Adults are questioning brand identities and the infantilization of their tastes. They are out in front of the politicians, who still seem addicted to credit as a cure-all for the economic crisis.
There are epic moments in history, often catalyzed by catastrophe, that permit fundamental cultural change. The Civil War not only brought an end to slavery but knit together a wounded country, opened the West and spurred capitalist investment in ways that created the modern American nation. The Great Depression legitimized a radical expansion of democratic interventionism; but more important, it made Americans aware of how crucial equality and social justice (buried in capitalism's first century) were to America's survival as a democracy.
Today we find ourselves in another such seminal moment.
Will we use it to rethink the meaning of capitalism and the relationship between our material bodies and the spirited psyches they are meant to serve? Between the single-minded commercialism that we have allowed to dominate us, and the pluralism, heterogeneity and spiritedness that constitute our professed national character?
But we will need leadership to turn the economic disaster into a cultural and democratic opportunity; to make service as important as selfishness (what about a national service program, universal and mandatory, linked to education?); to make the needs of the spirit as worthy of respect as those of the body (assist the arts and don't chase religion out of the public square just because we want it out of City Hall); to make equality as important as individual opportunity ("equal opportunity" talk has become a way to avoid confronting deep structural inequality); to make prudence and modesty values no less commendable than speculation and hubris (saving is not just good economic policy; it's a beneficent frame of mind).
Such values are neither conservative nor liberal but are at once cosmopolitan and deeply human. Their restoration could inaugurate a quiet revolution. The struggle for the soul of capitalism is, then, a struggle between the world's economic body and its civic soul; a struggle to put capitalism in its proper place, where it serves our nature and needs rather than manipulating and fabricating whims and wants.
Saving capitalism means a revolution of the spirit. Are we up to it?
Quote from: Donagh on February 23, 2009, 07:58:41 PM
So can we take it from the responses then that no one here apart from Zapatista would support a 'leftist' government? I guess we're still a nation of (post-industrial) peasants. We've a long way to fall yet I suspect...
I'd be very interested in leftist option at the polls. unfortuantely this country doesn't have a credible one given the state the labour party is in
Quote from: muppet on February 24, 2009, 09:30:20 AM
However to pay for the above a realistic counter-policy needs to be put forward. Simply puting up taxes for the middle classes isn't the answer. Most of us pay 42% tax + 1% levy + 5% PRSI. If you are in the private sector you should be putting money into a pension (I pay 7%) giving a total of 55% and then I pay 21% vat on almost everything I buy.
But how much of that is wasted muppet?
Some measures I would take would involve:
1. Slashing bureaucracy in government departments as well as the pay for politicians and public servants - for the national good. No more trips on private jet or special limos, so if a little old fashioned patriotism and pride in working for your country isn't enough of a perk then you can go elsewhere.
2. Nationalise the banks and all national resources including gas, water, minerals, telecoms, fisheries and electricity distribution. If the EU don't like it they can feck off as well.
3. I'd hit the property developers for the money they should have been contributing to infrastructure development whilst the building boom was happening. If they don't have the money clean them out of every asset and piece of land they have.
4. Invest in infrastructure and renewable energy. We must have one the the 'windy-ist' peices of real estate on the face of the Earth, so I've have wind farms everywhere generating electricity and flog the surplus to the Brits through the interconnector. This and wave-power are areas we should become world leaders in.
5. Tax the feck out of car owners and second homes, making the later pretty much unaffordable. Invest massively in public transportation and abolish all those bungalows in Donegal.
6. Nationalise the universities (most of them are massive money making operations) and pour resources into research in certain sectors such as engineering (see point 4), medicine, technology and education in an effort to make us world leaders in some of these areas - something we could market abroad. I'd have enough doctors and engineers trained so that we can again export our expertise e.g. use the Cuban model of sending trainee doctors to work in developing countries overseas, which creates goodwill, knowledge transfer and cash.
8. Decentralise power into Civil Forums to administer local governance
7. Nationalise the Churches and their property, but also give them an active role the Civic Forum, education and health-care (if they are willing, if not they can feck off as well)
9. Go in hard against the big criminals and drug dealers. This would involve taking their citizenship and property and sending them across the water (in whatever direction they want). Same goes for the tax exiles - if they don't pay up they can stay away permanently.
I'm not saying a left-leaning government would take these measures but I outline them just to give an indication on the level of pain needed to turn the country around. And I haven't even went near the farmers yet...
Quote from: muppet on February 24, 2009, 09:30:20 AM
Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I diagree that a jump from the right to the left is what we need. Someone said out of the frying pan into the fire and I would agree. Back to the centre and away rom the extremes would be more up my street.
I do think there are areas where left wing thinking should prevail and in fairness you mentioned one, the Health service and the 2nd I would add is education. I think cutbacks in those areas is misguided. They may need streamlining certainly so we (taxpayer) get value for money but the spend shouldn't be reduced.
However to pay for the above a realistic counter-policy needs to be put forward. Simply puting up taxes for the middle classes isn't the answer. Most of us pay 42% tax + 1% levy + 5% PRSI. If you are in the private sector you should be putting money into a pension (I pay 7%) giving a total of 55% and then I pay 21% vat on almost everything I buy.
For most of the euros I earn get 45c into my hand and of that 9.4c goes back to the Government.
We will get more taxes from the current centre-right Government so proposals to put even more on top of the are not palatable. Not for me anyway.
True that we all have opinions. I am not suggesting a jump from right to left. The current system is a right system and has grown over the space of about 20 years. It is currently the only one that exists here. In order to change that you must work within the current system. It's not a case of out with the old and in with the new it is a gradual change of thinking and attitude towards what the wealth of a Nation is. All the tax details you post might not change greatly with a left Government and a left Government (I think Labour seemedhappy enough with the tax system) wouldn't be any better or faster at fixing the current crisis no matter who they tax. What they would do is get the country back to that middle ground you are talking about.
There aren't enough extreme or even strong socialists in Ireland to bring Ireland to a socialist country there are enough left of centre to bring it to a place were we can counter the mistakes made by the majority right. There is nothing to be afraid of. There are very few loonies in Irish politics and the Irish population but there are plenty of people that will capitalise on the myth that there are.
Quote from: Donagh on February 24, 2009, 10:53:24 AM
Quote from: muppet on February 24, 2009, 09:30:20 AM
However to pay for the above a realistic counter-policy needs to be put forward. Simply puting up taxes for the middle classes isn't the answer. Most of us pay 42% tax + 1% levy + 5% PRSI. If you are in the private sector you should be putting money into a pension (I pay 7%) giving a total of 55% and then I pay 21% vat on almost everything I buy.
QuoteBut how much of that is wasted muppet?
Way way too much.
Some measures I would take would involve:
Quote
1. Slashing bureaucracy in government departments as well as the pay for politicians and public servants - for the national good. No more trips on private jet or special limos, so if a little old fashioned patriotism and pride in working for your country isn't enough of a perk then you can go elsewhere.
I am amzed that the Government jet isn't the first thing people should be in the street about. It cost
€164,000 (http://www.irishexaminer.com/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=ireland-qqqm=ireland-qqqa=ireland-qqqid=83548-qqqx=1.asp) for the recent futile trip to Dell beause they used the Gulfstream.
Quote2. Nationalise the banks and all national resources including gas, water, minerals, telecoms, fisheries and electricity distribution. If the EU don't like it they can feck off as well.
The banks looks like happening soon, the gas in the ground should be ours anyway (treasonous decision to give it to Shell free IMHO), the utilities I have no problem with but if it is just for ideological reason I'm not interested. I'm sick of ideology.
Quote3. I'd hit the property developers for the money they should have been contributing to infrastructure development whilst the building boom was happening. If they don't have the money clean them out of every asset and piece of land they have.
I have no sympathy for the developers. Anyone I know who has met any of these men use the same word to describe them, 'ignorant'. Funny that because other successful types attract different descriptions but the developers, always 'ignorant'.
Quote4. Invest in infrastructure and renewable energy. We must have one the the 'windy-ist' peices of real estate on the face of the Earth, so I've have wind farms everywhere generating electricity and flog the surplus to the Brits through the interconnector. This and wave-power are areas we should become world leaders in.
Agree 100% but you would have to create incentives to do it that you mightn't like such as tax relief etc. Also maybe it's time to look at nuclear, when oil prices went through the roof last summer the French were sitting pretty due to their nuclear power stations.
Quote5. Tax the feck out of car owners and second homes, making the later pretty much unaffordable. Invest massively in public transportation and abolish all those bungalows in Donegal.
Not sure why you want to attack car owners. What would make more sense would be to scrap car tax and load it on fuel meaning it would be a lot cheaper to drive less and use public transport. Second homes not so sure about but incomes from property could see a change in how it is viewed. I think it should be seen more as a business so corporate tax on any income but no mortgage relief to deter amateur speculators (like me!) in a boom.
Quote6. Nationalise the universities (most of them are massive money making operations) and pour resources into research in certain sectors such as engineering (see point 4), medicine, technology and education in an effort to make us world leaders in some of these areas - something we could market abroad. I'd have enough doctors and engineers trained so that we can again export our expertise e.g. use the Cuban model of sending trainee doctors to work in developing countries overseas, which creates goodwill, knowledge transfer and cash.
No problem here.
Quote8. Decentralise power into Civil Forums to administer local governance
You mean county councils? IMHO they have done more to fuel the property boom and bust than anyone. We need another way alright but local Government in a nation of chancers is not the way.
Quote7. Nationalise the Churches and their property, but also give them an active role the Civic Forum, education and health-care (if they are willing, if not they can feck off as well)
It used to belong to us anyway.
Quote9. Go in hard against the big criminals and drug dealers. This would involve taking their citizenship and property and sending them across the water (in whatever direction they want). Same goes for the tax exiles - if they don't pay up they can stay away permanently.
No problem with the headline but I would like to see how this would be done exactly.
QuoteI'm not saying a left-leaning government would take these measures but I outline them just to give an indication on the level of pain needed to turn the country around. And I haven't even went near the farmers yet...
My concern with a traditional left leaning government is that they will dramatically raise taxes and completely cripple the economy with even greater job losses and welfare bills.
Quote3. I'd hit the property developers for the money they should have been contributing to infrastructure development whilst the building boom was happening. If they don't have the money clean them out of every asset and piece of land they have.
Well, for a start, the banks we now own should be seizing the land-banks owned by the developers as recompense for their debts to us, as shareholders. This would effectively eliminate the 'dog-in-the-manger' class of developers from the nation, and should allow us, as a nation to reset (where we like) the fundamental value of housing.
I like Declan's article too, some good ideas there, amongst the hand-wringing. ;)
The emergence of microfinancing (in the third world), and its uneffected progress through the credit crunch, would tend to give credence to the theory that the way forward is to build new markets based on serving those who are poor, rather than those who are not.
The old Right and Left divisions do not have the same relevance in an increasingly globalised world economy. The choice facing Ireland today is between the European social model of society and American individualism. With 70% of our laws emanating from Europe and our dependence on American investment, with the resultant need to please them, our scope for independent decision making is very limited. One decision we could make to prevent the mistakes of the past from being repeated , would be to introduce Capital gains Tax on profits from House sales. This would prevent the runaway crazy prices we have witnessed during the boom, and keep prices of the average home within the reach of the average working family.
The marchers last Saturday want to fix the economy as long as someone else pays.
QuoteThe marchers last Saturday want to fix the economy as long as someone else pays.
What a load of nonsense. Unless you've something constructive to say keep out of discussions that are obviously too hard for you to understand.
Quote from: Pangurban on February 25, 2009, 12:04:15 AM
The old Right and Left divisions do not have the same relevance in an increasingly globalised world economy. The choice facing Ireland today is between the European social model of society and American individualism. With 70% of our laws emanating from Europe and our dependence on American investment, with the resultant need to please them, our scope for independent decision making is very limited. One decision we could make to prevent the mistakes of the past from being repeated , would be to introduce Capital gains Tax on profits from House sales. This would prevent the runaway crazy prices we have witnessed during the boom, and keep prices of the average home within the reach of the average working family.
Really? So what do you make of the Latin American countries who have managed to forge a different path over the past few years?
QuoteSo what do you make of the Latin American countries who have managed to forge a different path over the past few years?
Aren't they coming from a much lower base so to speak Donagh though? We have inequality here but not on the scale as Venezuela, Bolivia etc.
I don't think there's much room for manoeuvre for Ireland so long as we are wearing the EU straight jacket.
I would agree with the first and later points that Donogh puts up
however I dont think a 'left' government would be as 'left' as in previous ideology.
A modern day left would be most likely just left of centre, as our current gov is just right of centre.
I dont think that would be a massive swing and I dont think the problem is of an ideology either.
We need unscrupulous people to take control, to put the coutry first and radicically overhaul the public sector to make it more efficient and not losing money when it shouldnt be eg health sector.
Put regulations in place for the private sector, ensure that illegality and so on is heavily penalised and that all facets are monitored properly, without the usual 'ah sure it will be grand ' half arsed way we seem to do way too many things here on this island.
creativity in creating revenur - wave,wind farms electric generation, also I am for the nuclear power plants , at least as an initial stopgap. Sell electric to europe/uk, lessen dependency on imported fossil fuels.
Use our underutilised fields for bio-fuels and crops for sale overseas (and locally).
Change foreign investment company tax laws/incentives.
Tax them fully, but give them back even more in rebates after 5,10, 15 etc years operations in Ireland - relating their bonus back to the number of staff employed in the country etc
there are a lot of incentivised things we can do to get more investment, its all down to money. An initial bonus then a longer term bous plan will get more over here. I wouldnt even care so much if we dont make barely anything on them at all, just to get jobs and revenue into the country.
Introduce a green card system for Ireland. No green card, no work.
Along with safe pass training day for consruction workers, there should be a 'professional trade exam' . Anyone looking to perform in the construction industry in a trade should have to pass a practical exam (Irish person or non national). this will lessen the amount of cowboys in the construction game. You need a safe pass and your 'carpenter level 3' cert to build stud partitions in new houses on a building site.
I dont think any of the 'lefties' out there now are die hard marxists. I know there are still a few left in SF, but I dont think that that kind of politics really will translate into moder day society.
There is a place for some of those ideas, just as there is for full on right wing capitalism.
We need people that will not be swayed by money or 'whats in it for them' as we have seen our governments and political representatives (all but a few) get up to this past 20 years.
I dont think there is enough decent people that could form a government that we need, so we will have to hope that through the muddling about , FF, FG, Lab, Green, SF, Ind get it right between them.
It wont be the first of second time, things will virtually right themseves in time anyhow and the gov / dail could almost be a hinderence more than a help in doing this.
Guess who will try to take credit though. ::)
Arguing over left and right in a crisis like this is quite frankly pointless. This is bordering on a national emergency the scale of which we've never seen before and relying on ideology to sort it out will get us nowhere.
Put simply, we need to get back to useful work. It's that simple. We are a productive people, located on an island which has a lot of natural advantages. our focus should be output, whatever that may be. However, that means that in order to straighten things out, unproductive work, unproductive spending and waste cannot be afforded. For example, the traditional right would not like the following, but it would have to be done:
(1) The financial markets should exist to serve investment. Not to facilitate those who want ever more elaborate and tax free ways of gambling. Seán Quinn's CFD's are a case in poiint - what possible good can be served by such a product? If Seán Quinn has money that he wants to invest in Anglo Irish, let him do so by buying their shares. The idea that people paid stamp duty on houses they could barely afford but that Brian Cowen removed stamp duty on this financial trick is abhorrent.
(2) There are certain "lifestyle" choices on offer now that quite simply are a waste. Obviously they should be on offer for sale, but the idea that most products have a VAT rate at 21% when a whole raft of luxury goods that people buy for status value and which create no Irish wealth could easily bear a bigger rate is wrong. A special "luxury" VAT rate of 50%, applied to things like the following - 4x4 vehicles for those who don't have a proven working need (not too stringent, just enough to knock out the city types), golf clubs that cost thousands, overpriced homewares like lamps, cutlery sets etc., mahoosive televisions, elaborate sound systems, the list could go on forever.
(3) Following on from the above, a real crackdown on black market stuff (shopping in the states etc.) as well as tax cheating of any kind.
(4) Needless to say we need a huge cut down in administration - the cost of government at every level, expenses incurred and the like. This carry on of elected TD's getting full time staff who simply work to guarantee their re-election is disgraceful.
But equally, if we do all this, there is also waste at the lower levels which would have to be tackled as well, and the left would have to swallow the likes of the following
(1) Low level benefit fraud. If Seanie Fitzpatrick should have his assets seized by the CAB (and he probably should until he pays back his loan to the state) so should the mother claiming lone parents allowance when she's moved in with a new boyfriend. If some step back allowance needs to be created, so be it - but fraud is fraud, at every level.
(2) We simply cannot afford the excessive levels of beauracracy within organisations like the HSE. It needs real reform, with thousands of employees to be let go and simply an end to petty demarcation stuff from consultants, porters and 23k a year administrators. No strikes and alternative employment would be arranged for those removed - in PRODUCTIVE areas like revenue enforcement.
(3) The high minimum wage is an issue, however I agree with the left in that we're going about it the wrong way to reduce it. I would suggest instead that we create a system whereby an employer can take on any individual who is unemployed for three months or more, and pay them 50% of the minimum wage, with the state making up the difference. This can cover training times etc., with the proviso that after six months of employment on this basis, the employer must then make the position full time or else let the employee go again. There needs to be some element of training involved so at the very worst, the employee leaves with enhanced skill, while this must be a new position - no employer who has made anyone redundant in the previous six months is eligible. It will give employers greater flexibility to try things out.
(4) Further to the above, there is a lot of work that needs doing in this country - and the idea that we are going to have half a million unemployed doing nothing for their dole money can't continue. One or two days work per week, whether it's as mundane as tidy towns, or perhaps helping out at a local council office, becoming involved in state school building programmes, whatever. Unemployed teachers should be offering themselves to do afterschool classes for those who would like a helping hand or a second voice but can't afford grinds. There are countless ways that this could be done.
Obviously they're just my thoughts and I'm very unelected so they have no mandate whatsoever, but my point is that endless squabbling over left vs right is not going to achieve anything when essentially the problem is our lack of productivity and not paying our way - something which is a problem at the top and the bottom of Irish society.
We need a revolution. Not a violent one where people are shot or interned but a revolution all the same. Maybe an Army coupe that would put a benevolent dictator in place for a few years to sort things out.
Without the need to worry about re-election he/she could make the hard decisions necessary to sort the country out once and for all. When ever its sorted we put controls in place to prevent this nonsense happening again and could hold elections again.
That's all cool Lone Shark but -
QuotePut simply, we need to get back to useful work. It's that simple. We are a productive people, located on an island which has a lot of natural advantages. our focus should be output, whatever that may be. However, that means that in order to straighten things out, unproductive work, unproductive spending and waste cannot be afforded. For example, the traditional right would not like the following, but it would have to be done
The position you are starting from is false. We cannot get back to work. There is no work. We may be a productive people but we are not in the position to be productive. The brain drain is not far away. Unproductive work will soon be no work. It will also slow down the movement of people and the movement of capital. This slow down is only starting to gain momentum. We are currently borrowing more than we are earning and the projection is that it will continue and the amount borrowed will increase while the amount earned will continue to decrease. While we have natural advantages we clearly have equal disadvantages. The competing economies on the island coupled with the fact that we are an island are only two of those disadvantages. The investments we had in Ireland which are now pulling out have served their time heree. They will now serve their time elsewhere and that won't be any less than 10 years.
There is only one way out of this. I agree that swapping idealist Governments will not change the process of of getting out of this mess (in the future it would prepare us better though) as there is only one peacefull way out. We need to take the hard decisions and weather the storm. It is bleak up ahead and we must accept that, brunt it, deal with it and begin to prevent it from happening again. All the calls for Government change is a knee jerk reaction. The Government should go as they lied to win an election but it won't make a difference to the shit we are in.
Zapatista that is nonsense. Look around you, within Ireland, and within the globe. There is plenty that needs doing. We have a country that is painfully short on infrastructure, that has untapped natural resources that we can't even conceive of, that has countless people falling by the margins and you say that there is no work to be done? I can't have it. Just because we don't have "extra" money to set aside for projects is not the issue - we need to divert the resources we have and aren't using wisely enough into productive ends.
We simply need to look beyond the constraints of what we have traditionally looked on as paid employment. We need to pay our way in the world and there is no shortage of ways in which we can do that. As was pointed out, we can supply electricity, scientific innovation, food, gas, tourism, commerce (as opposed to finance) and a world of other options. We have people, and the world wants things that we can give them - we just can't make a quick buck they way we got used to.
I simply cannot accept that there is nothing to be done. Only a year or so ago we were all running around like blue-arsed flies trying to keep up with everything that was going on. It simply can't be the case that just because some zeroes have been knocked off some balances somewhere that we suddenly have nothing to do.
I like your thinking Lone Shark.
Some good points there LS - Unfortunately the gobshites in charge of this country are in denial. Can you believe this?? How in God's name did this idiot ever get a position in Public life?
Wednesday, February 25, 2009, 11:07
Public finances 'under control', says Tánaiste
DAVID LABANYI
The Tánaiste has said the public finances are under control and ruled out further spending cuts or changes to the tax regime until next year's budget.
Mary Coughlan also cautioned against talking down the economy saying we have to "make sure that our international reputation is not damaged to such an extent that we will not have access to borrowing requirements, that we will not have access to money for our banking systems."
Speaking on RTÉ's Morning Ireland programme earlier today, Ms Coughlan said the Government had made a decision on the amount of expenditure for this year and "we must remain within that".
She defended the Government's response to the recession saying it has a three-fold plan (the father, the son and the holy ghost of past tax revenue) to restore the public finances, manage the economy, sustain the banking system and sustain jobs.
"It is not true to say that we are not managing the economy and it is not true to say that the Government and all those within the Cabinet are not acutely aware of the absolute necessity of managing the public finances . . ."
She said spending cuts of €2 billion this year had been found and the Government was working on a plan to reduce spending by €4 billion next year.
She said the Commission on Taxation would put forward new ideas on taxation and noted that the tax base in the State was very low. The Tánaiste said it was important any new taxes did not impinge on employment.
"We have indicated nationally and internationally that we are going to reduce even more public expenditure and we are working towards that now. That is for next year's budget."
Asked if she was confident that the approach taken by the Government to recapitalise Bank of Ireland and AIB would work, the Tánaiste replied: "I really would love if we found ourselves in the situation where we won't talk ourselves into an even bigger crisis than we presently are in". She said the biggest issue facing business was access to working capital. "There is huge interaction between the banks and the Department of Finance to make sure that money is well spent and it does what it does."
Shortly after the Government announced details of its recapitalisation plan which will see the State contribute €3.5 billion to Bank of Ireland and AIB both increased their bad debt forecasts.
AIB almost doubled its projections for loan losses to €1.8 billion, or 1.37 per cent of the overall loan book while Bank of Ireland raised its three-year bad debt estimate to € 4.5 billion - and in a possible worst-case scenario of € 6 billion - from €3.8 billion.
QuoteThere is huge interaction between the banks and the Department of Finance to make sure that money is well spent and it does what it does.
If that means what it says then it's official - the lunatics have taken over the asylum.
There is normally Good News and Bad News when discussing situations like this, but from where I'm sitting, the Bad News is that "There is no Good News".
I take absolutely no pleasure from seeing a lot of good, ordinary people losing out, but frankly, talk of "Left" or "Right" governments, or Wind Farms/Nationalisation/eliminating waste & bureaucracy/chasing fraudsters etc isn't going to solve the problem.
The simple truth is that too many people have "lived high off the hog" for too long and now the hog is dead. Which means (to stretch this Metaphor to breaking point), it's back to "spuds and buttermilk" for the foreseeable future.
And any politician or economist who tells you otherwise is either a fool or a knave (or both).
People need to accept that they're in for a prolonged period of high unemployment, high taxation, reduced services and a (much?) lower standard of living than they have grown used to. Which means cutting up the Credit Cards, fewer (or no) foreign holidays, an end to second homes, not changing their car every year or two and only eating out on genuinely special occasions etc. In fact, it will possibly mean a return to the days of net emigration (that's if emigrants can find an overseas economy with jobs on offer)
For if they cannot (or will not) accept these strictures, then the economy, already under severe strain, is likely to implode completely. And if that happens, whatever Government is in power will likely end up like the classic scene in "Planes, Trains and Automobiles":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4CgLRcYN74
(For "Steve Martin wanting a way out of Wichita for Thanksgiving" substitute "The Irish Economy wanting a way out of Implosion" and for "Marathon Car Rental" read "The IMF/EU/World Bank etc")
P.S. I don't hold out any higher hopes for the economic prospects in NI, nor of the ability of Brown & Co to sort it out. Rather, the only scant consolation is that with the UK economy being so much bigger than the Irish one, Marathon might just give us a slightly better rental car than Steve Martin ended up with :(
Quote from: Evil Genius on February 25, 2009, 12:49:15 PM
There is normally Good News and Bad News when discussing situations like this, but from where I'm sitting, the Bad News is that "There is no Good News".
I take absolutely no pleasure from seeing a lot of good, ordinary people losing out, but frankly, talk of "Left" or "Right" governments, or Wind Farms/Nationalisation/eliminating waste & bureaucracy/chasing fraudsters etc isn't going to solve the problem.
The simple truth is that too many people have "lived high off the hog" for too long and now the hog is dead. Which means (to stretch this Metaphor to breaking point), it's back to "spuds and buttermilk" for the foreseeable future.
And any politician or economist who tells you otherwise is either a fool or a knave (or both).
People need to accept that they're in for a prolonged period of high unemployment, high taxation, reduced services and a (much?) lower standard of living than they have grown used to. Which means cutting up the Credit Cards, fewer (or no) foreign holidays, an end to second homes, not changing their car every year or two and only eating out on genuinely special occasions etc. In fact, it will possibly mean a return to the days of net emigration (that's if emigrants can find an overseas economy with jobs on offer)
For if they cannot (or will not) accept these strictures, then the economy, already under severe strain, is likely to implode completely. And if that happens, whatever Government is in power will likely end up like the classic scene in "Planes, Trains and Automobiles":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4CgLRcYN74
(For "Steve Martin wanting a way out of Wichita for Thanksgiving" substitute "The Irish Economy wanting a way out of Implosion" and for "Marathon Car Rental" read "The IMF/EU/World Bank etc")
P.S. I don't hold out any higher hopes for the economic prospects in NI, nor of the ability of Brown & Co to sort it out. Rather, the only scant consolation is that with the UK economy being so much bigger than the Irish one, Marathon might just give us a slightly better rental car than Steve Martin ended up with :(
thats effectively what the gov are saying which is a pile of rubbish.
if you belive that we cannot trade our way out as lone shark , myself and many others think then you certainly have the low level non-creative non-capitalist mindset of a bureaucrat !
yes less personal spending and longer period of unemployment ( tell us something we dont know) if the current Gov has its way.
However, further to Dclans last post, thats what you'd expect they woul dhave to say as they are in charge of the finances, but it is the kind of thinking seen above by eveil myles and brian lenehan that will keep us on our knees for th eforseeable future as these guys dont have the financially astute mindset required for creating revenue, or the balls to actually 'take the risk' and go out and try to do something about all this.
Its the rabbit in the headlights scenario.
Prolems arise and rather than do something about it, they are afraid to do anything other than procrastenate!
Quote from: Silky on February 25, 2009, 10:37:47 AM
We need a revolution. Not a violent one where people are shot or interned but a revolution all the same. Maybe an Army coupe that would put a benevolent dictator in place for a few years to sort things out.
I hope you're not pinning hopes on the lads from the Curragh Camp to organise a military coup. I doubt the pimply faced youths with wooden guns would be capable of such a feat unless they draft in the help of the FCA.
And to think a Roscommon man, Dermot Earley Sr. would rule the land.
Quote from: carribbear on February 25, 2009, 05:26:50 PM
[
And to think a Roscommon man, Dermot Earley Sr. would rule the land.
At least then it would be run right and with the daughter of a Ros man as Uachtarán we'd be saved....but unfortunately we have to put up with Biffo/Lenihan and that fcukin yoke Coughlan
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
Quote from: Rossfan on February 25, 2009, 06:29:52 PM
Quote from: carribbear on February 25, 2009, 05:26:50 PM
[
And to think a Roscommon man, Dermot Earley Sr. would rule the land.
At least then it would be run right and with the daughter of a Ros man as Uachtarán we'd be saved....but unfortunately we have to put up with Biffo/Lenihan and that fcukin yoke Coughlan :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
Does Robert Mugabe need a new job?
Quote from: Lone Shark on February 25, 2009, 11:34:36 AM
Zapatista that is nonsense. Look around you, within Ireland, and within the globe. There is plenty that needs doing. We have a country that is painfully short on infrastructure, that has untapped natural resources that we can't even conceive of, that has countless people falling by the margins and you say that there is no work to be done? I can't have it. Just because we don't have "extra" money to set aside for projects is not the issue - we need to divert the resources we have and aren't using wisely enough into productive ends.
We simply need to look beyond the constraints of what we have traditionally looked on as paid employment. We need to pay our way in the world and there is no shortage of ways in which we can do that. As was pointed out, we can supply electricity, scientific innovation, food, gas, tourism, commerce (as opposed to finance) and a world of other options. We have people, and the world wants things that we can give them - we just can't make a quick buck they way we got used to.
I simply cannot accept that there is nothing to be done. Only a year or so ago we were all running around like blue-arsed flies trying to keep up with everything that was going on. It simply can't be the case that just because some zeroes have been knocked off some balances somewhere that we suddenly have nothing to do.
That is true Lone Shark but we are not in a position to do that. What you are suggesting is atleast 10 years away before we can get a return on it. And that is only if we act now. We could do that and we should do that but right now we can't do that. We simply cannot change our reliance on the property market to a reliance on natural resourse in a few years. This time next year will will have to much infracture in some sectors. The isn't much point in building bus lanes while we are removing buses and have noone to bus. It's a little late to be building schools and hospitals to meet the demand of a population which will continue to decrease over the next few years.
The road I take to work has been closed for 3 months in order to build a road from a large industrial area to the M50. This industrail area has many empty units and ,more business are pulling out every week. The need for that road is going with every business that goes.
You are right, we cannot make a quick buck like we used to yet our entire system is built on that quick buck. Ther eis plenty to be done but we are now looking at damage limitation rather than growth. Growth will have to wait.
In order to build the country they way you mentioned we will need investment and more importantly political will. There is no history in Ireland having tht political will and if the opertunity for investment does arise there is a large probability that the quick buck mentality will return.