An Uachtarán na hÉireann, Máire Pádraigín Bean Mhic Ghiolla Íosa, hosted a series of lectures in the Áras over Christmas on the topic of being Irish in modern Ireland. Broadcast on RTE radio last week, this is the first one by Martin O'Neill:
http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2008/1231/martinoneillpresidentiallecture_av.html (http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2008/1231/martinoneillpresidentiallecture_av.html)
The second lecture was the best of them. Very interesting.
The third lecture by Padraig O Ceidigh was interesting and could even be inspiring but it struck me that he was reciting a motivational talk that he often gives. Also, to my mind, he didn't answer the audience's questions adequately.
Thought MON's comments about being Irish in England and the attitudes shown to him, during the 70's was very interesting and corresponds to experiences suffered by members of my family over there in the 70's and 80's.
Quote from: baoithe on January 06, 2009, 11:15:55 AM
The second lecture was the best of them. Very interesting.
The third lecture by Padraig O Ceidigh was interesting and could even be inspiring but it struck me that he was reciting a motivational talk that he often gives. Also, to my mind, he didn't answer the audience's questions adequately.
Aye I heard the Louise Richardson one. It was interesting but I got the impression if she was answering the question on "what it means to be Irish to me", her answer would be "not a lot".
interesting comments from a man who went on record saying he wud hav loved the chance to manage england
Quote from: Clown on January 06, 2009, 11:36:43 AM
interesting comments from a man who went on record saying he wud hav loved the chance to manage england
I dont see a problem with that.
I'd manage england, take the £4million or so per year and get a very capable squad disciplined and ready to do a lot better than they have been doing and underachieving in recent years competitions
MON like any sane individual, doesnt hold anything against the English...most of us dont....
I like O Neill and his sense of anything - a very grounded individual, very proud to be nationalist and a great contributor to both Nationalist and Unionist sporting folklore. Very fair man.
MON had a piece in the Irish News last week. He said he had to go to the "mainland" to play football as you couldn't in Ireland professionally. I added the quotes...
Quote from: antigpa on January 06, 2009, 11:49:47 AM
I like O Neill and his sense of anything - a very grounded individual, very proud to be nationalist and a great contributor to both Nationalist and Unionist sporting folklore. Very fair man.
You sound like you know him. I do and am happy to confirm he is all of these things and more, head and shoulders above some so-called "legends" of Irish soccer (from the opposite corner of the island!). He demonstrates what it is to be truly a good Irishman in an international context. All of his working life has been spent in Britain but he is proud to be Irish and we should be of him. His own children, although reared in England and Scotland, were brought up as Irish and consider themselves so.
His talk was honest, sometimes self-deprecating, and well received by his audience.
Nice touch about bringing his daughters to the AI final in '03.
Quote from: Clown on January 06, 2009, 11:36:43 AM
interesting comments from a man who went on record saying he wud hav loved the chance to manage england
Really what he was saying was that it would have turned full circle - from being a Paddy to being King of the English game - that would have been some turnaround.
I think hes a legend. A spades a spade sorta bloke! Love watching him go nuts along the line and his goal celebrations!
He told of the time that he was forbidden to play in the Ulster colleges final in Casement because of his soccer playing with Distillery.
Then he said that the Colleges contrived to have the game played in Tyrone where he was allowed to play. That was a strange one.
President McAleese comes across very well, more as a very positive educator/inspiration.
Quote from: Main Street on January 06, 2009, 01:05:52 PM
He told of the time that he was forbidden to play in the Ulster colleges final in Casement because of his soccer playing with Distillery.
Then he said that the Colleges contrived to have the game played in Tyrone where he was allowed to play. That was a strange one.
He was a high profile debutantsoccer player in his first season with Distillery. The Antrim Co Board (well known for progress and tolerance) would not allow the Colleges final between two Belfast schools be played at Casement because of the sins of this one schoolboy footballer. Both teams and supporters had to travel to Coalisland.
Quote from: Main Street on January 06, 2009, 01:05:52 PM
He told of the time that he was forbidden to play in the Ulster colleges final in Casement because of his soccer playing with Distillery.
Then he said that the Colleges contrived to have the game played in Tyrone where he was allowed to play. That was a strange one.
President McAleese comes across very well, more as a very positive educator/inspiration.
No that was the Antrim county board then, as now, populated by some of the greatest thinkers and administrators in the history of Gaelic Games.
It was just after the ban had been lifted (Antrim being one of two counties to oppose the lifting of the ban IIRC). The county board wouldn't release Casement for the final exactly for the reason outlined by Martin O'Neill. I think the final was played in Omagh, maybe even in the grounds of the CBS. Absolutely disgraceful behaviour by those involved in blocking Casement, but no surprise. The only surprise may be that the last remaining member of that board has only just left the Antrim county board.
Quote from: ziggysego on January 06, 2009, 11:53:23 AM
MON had a piece in the Irish News last week. He said he had to go to the "mainland" to play football as you couldn't in Ireland professionally. I added the quotes...
He did indeed. He is also reported as saying that he was booed when leading out the home team at Windsor Park (although no direct quote was given). We already know (courtesy of Evil Genius) that this was because a) he wasn't from Belfast, b) he wasn't playing for Manchester United or c) he wasn't from a famous 'footballing' family like the McCreerys.
Quote from: saffron sam2 on January 06, 2009, 01:34:31 PM
. He is also reported as saying that he was booed when leading out the home team at Windsor Park (although no direct quote was given). We already know (courtesy of Evil Genius) that this was because a) he wasn't from Belfast, b) he wasn't playing for Manchester United or c) he wasn't from a famous 'footballing' family like the McCreerys.
As captain of NI from his partiular background he was a credit to his upbringing and rose above this shoddy bigotry, as did his wonderful team-mate Jennings, from a similar nationalist- GAA family background. Two giants among the bigots of both sides.
MON is a legend....
Our PP spent a long number of years in Kilrea and came to befreind MON. When he came to our parish he still had a lot of contact with O'Neill when he was at Celtic. He used to get signed jersey's from him on a regular basis for charity draws and club fund raising events.
When our PP passed away a few years ago O'Neill came to the funeral. I think there was almost as big a turnout to see him as there was patrons at the funeral.
I always thought it said a lot about the man when he kept such close contact with his roots having been away for such a long time and then to make the effort to attend the funeral.
He seems a real gentleman who says what he thinks....and he manages THE MIGHTY VILLA!
Quote from: saffron sam2 on January 06, 2009, 01:34:31 PM
He did indeed. He is also reported as saying that he was booed when leading out the home team at Windsor Park (although no direct quote was given). We already know (courtesy of Evil Genius) that this was because a) he wasn't from Belfast, b) he wasn't playing for Manchester United or c) he wasn't from a famous 'footballing' family like the McCreerys.
Once again you distort and misrepresent what I posted. MON has in the past commented that he wasn't so popular with (a section of) the NI supporters e.g. as Sammy McIlroy. I accept that one of the reasons for this may have been his Nationalist background etc.
But I suggest that an
additional reason may be that Sammy Mac played for MU - by far the most popular club team in NI; also, because he (and the McCreerys) are local boys, and with soccer being a predominantly urban game in NI and the majority of the crowd being from Belfast, such a reaction is no more remarkable e.g. than a Glentoran player (Jimmy Cleary?) getting a bigger cheer than, say, a Portadown player (Gary Hamilton?)
And that is actually a separate (though related) issue to his reported comments about being
booed (for being Catholic etc). Now if he says that happened, then I accept that it did, and condemn it unreservedly. It must have been very uncomfortable for him.
However, I am also entitled to add that having been at many of MON's early games (inc. his debut), it can only have been a small minority of the crowd, and sporadically at that, who engaged in this practice, for I simply do not recall it happening, which I am sure I would have, had it been excessive or protracted, or maintained over a long period of time..
It is notable, too, in the RTE radio address that he mentioned how he "joked" to Sammy Mac about being "booed
onto the pitch" (as well as off it). Without in any way wishing to downplay the seriousness of any such booing, or MON's reaction to it, but it may be that there is also an element of this being a good quip, from someone who is known for having a sharp sense of humour.
Moreover, it is perhaps wise not to rely too much on the "memory" of a former footballer. I note that amongst MON's other comments in the radio address, he mentioned that he was the first Catholic to captain NI. I'm afraid he is quite wrong about that. I have checked the list and he is not even close.
I know it is never safe to go purely by name alone, but from the pre-partition (Ireland) international teams, it is likely/possible that James Christopher Fitzpatrick and George Sheehan, both Dubliners who played for Bohemians, may have been Catholic. Patrick Joseph O'Connell, who was born and played junior football in Dublin before joining Belfast Celtic undoubtedly was. Another may have been Wexford-born William Lacey, of Shelbourne, who later represented the Irish Free State.
More pertinently, there have been a number of post-partition captains before MON whom I know to have been Catholic. The first of these was Peter Doherty in the 1930's, who was also accorded the honour of being NI's first ever Manager (when responsibility for picking the team passed from a Board of Selectors). He was followed by Jackie Vernon, a Falls Road butcher and Belfast Celtic player, who was so honoured even
after having first played twice for Eire in 1946! Moreover, Vernon was the only NI player on the "GB" team which played the Rest of Europe in a benefit match for FIFA in Glasgow, in 1947.
And Dublin-born Johnny Carey also captained "Ireland" (i.e. NI) in the 40's. despite his having previously captained Eire on a number of occasions. Also in the 40's and 50's, Southerner Con Martin (father of Mick), was also picked to captain "Ireland" (NI), despite his, too, having previously captained Eire.
Still, no doubt "Martin O'Neill was the first Catholic NI captain" may be added to the rest of the list of myths about the team...
Anyhow, I am still proud of Martin, for whatever his background or personal beliefs etc, he still always gave 100% when wearing the green shirt, including being one of our finest ever captains. And I am certain that that opinion is shared by the overwhelming majority of NI fans.
P.S. Of the last 12 NI captains, it looks as though 5 of those have been Catholic, although I accept that soccer has a long way to go in that respect, compared with Gaelic "Sam Maguire was a Prod" Football...
::)
so very shortly its gonna be said that Neil lennon's memory might't serve him correctly on the booing and death threats
oh FFS
::)
Quote from: lynchbhoy on January 06, 2009, 04:31:27 PM
::)
so very shortly its gonna be said that Neil lennon's memory might't serve him correctly on the booing and death threats
oh FFS
::)
I was commenting on Martin O'Neill, who is the subject of this thread. If you feel that any of my comments on him were incorrect or unreliable, then please tell me where.
What's that? The sound of silence? ::)
P.S. If you want to discuss Neil Lennon, then by all means knock yourself out. Perhaps you could start a thread entitled "Whataboutery"? ::)
Quote from: Evil Genius on January 06, 2009, 04:38:42 PM
What's that? The sound of silence? ::)
Much like yours on the thread about owcers banning people ::)
Quote from: Evil Genius on January 06, 2009, 04:38:42 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on January 06, 2009, 04:31:27 PM
::)
so very shortly its gonna be said that Neil lennon's memory might't serve him correctly on the booing and death threats
oh FFS
::)
I was commenting on Martin O'Neill, who is the subject of this thread. If you feel that any of my comments on him were incorrect or unreliable, then please tell me where.
What's that? The sound of silence? ::)
P.S. If you want to discuss Neil Lennon, then by all means knock yourself out. Perhaps you could start a thread entitled "Whataboutery"? ::)
its called sense of humour, it was tongue in cheek suggesting that as you have allready commented on MON's memory letting him down regarding him being the first Catholic captain of ni soccer team (most likely as he was told this was the case and that his knowledge of ni soccer history is as vague as the rest of us) followed a piece on booing and sectarian behaviour towards Catholic/nationalist players - therefore implying that all this booing and sectarian behaviour/death threats etc etc are not correctly remembered and in fact are in some way 'distorted or made up' by the incorrect 'memory of a former footballer'
MON might have been incorrect about factual info regarding on his tenure being captain turning out not to be the initial taig todo so, but you wont be able to whitewash the facts of booing or sectarian behaviour or death threats as some sort or incorrect memory recollection
therefore I brought up the neil lennon scenario in case you decided to imply he had alzheimers !
pity you and your cohorts wouldnt learn 'the sound of silence' for windsor park and rid the world of yet more sectarianism !
:D
He was booed onto the field by NI supporters at many of his early games - I was there to witness it along with the "whimsical" Dirty Fenian B*****d sung each time he touched the ball. MON rose above this, ignored it and it eventually petered out because of that and because of his superb play and captaincy.
His recall as the first Cathoic captain may be inaccurate although I doubt if he gave consideration to any teams outside of his personal recall and certainly not from before partition or around the time of the split by FAI.
His point was that as an Irishman he was proud to captain the NI team and considered it no less a part of his Irishness. Unionists are Irish too, you know. They want to maintain the union between their part of Ireland (as they perceive it) and Britain and if there were no unionist-mineded Irish people then there would be no unionist movement, a simple fact of life that seeems to escape bigots from both sides. Off point, I know, but part of the picture.
I well remember the time O'Neill was appointed captain and the furore of the majority of North of Ireland fans that he was preferred to the "obvious Ulster Working Class Prod" choice, which was Sammy Mc Ilroy. The fact that Man Ure were crap at the time and O'Neill had won League Championship, League Cup and European Cup medals with Notts Forest did not influence the Windsor Boo Boys whatsoever. In fact I attended the North of Ireland V Scotland World Cup qualifier in 1981 at Windsor Park and witnessed people beside me accusing him of not giving 100% though I didn't witness any overt sectarian abuse. I think the reason for the discontent though was obviously O'Neill's background.
Interesting also that in the recently published book about Derek Dougan, O'Neill in his foreword alludes to the All Ireland v Brazil game in 1973 and acknowledges that Dougan was never selected by the North of Ireland again on account of his part in organising this game.
PS I wonder if anyone else claim (as I can) to have seen O'Neill play live in the flesh for Distillery, Notts Forest, Notts County, Norwich and Man City, as well as for the North of Ireland. I also saw him at Clones the day Down luckily defeated Armagh in the 1981 Ulster Final when his brother Gerry of course was manager of the Armagh team
Quote from: T Fearon on January 06, 2009, 04:58:23 PM
witnessed people beside me accusing him of not giving 100% though I didn't witness any overt sectarian abuse. I think the reason for the discontent though was obviously O'Neill's background.
:D :D
Quote from: T Fearon on January 06, 2009, 04:58:23 PM
PS I wonder if anyone else claim (as I can) to have seen O'Neill play live in the flesh for Distillery, Notts Forest, Notts County, Norwich and Man City, as well as for the North of Ireland. I also saw him at Clones the day Down luckily defeated Armagh in the 1981 Ulster Final when his brother Gerry of course was manager of the Armagh team
Yep, I won a competition for a 'martin o neill ticket', and I didnt see you at any of them you bluffer :P
mon carries himself like a man comfortable in his skin with nothing to prove to anyone. i like his point that he can play for ni and it doesnt make him any less irish (obviously true but i like that he makes it). if he becomes man u manager i will have to ditch my long held hatred/bigotry towards them and start supporting them. that will be tough but it will be done :D
Quote from: Evil Genius on January 06, 2009, 04:26:26 PM
Quote from: saffron sam2 on January 06, 2009, 01:34:31 PM
He did indeed. He is also reported as saying that he was booed when leading out the home team at Windsor Park (although no direct quote was given). We already know (courtesy of Evil Genius) that this was because a) he wasn't from Belfast, b) he wasn't playing for Manchester United or c) he wasn't from a famous 'footballing' family like the McCreerys.
Once again you distort and misrepresent what I posted. MON has in the past commented that he wasn't so popular with (a section of) the NI supporters e.g. as Sammy McIlroy. I accept that one of the reasons for this may have been his Nationalist background etc.
But I suggest that an additional reason may be that Sammy Mac played for MU - by far the most popular club team in NI; also, because he (and the McCreerys) are local boys, and with soccer being a predominantly urban game in NI and the majority of the crowd being from Belfast, such a reaction is no more remarkable e.g. than a Glentoran player (Jimmy Cleary?) getting a bigger cheer than, say, a Portadown player (Gary Hamilton?)
Source??
Quote from: Evil Genius on January 06, 2009, 04:26:26 PM
More pertinently, there have been a number of post-partition captains before MON whom I know to have been Catholic. The first of these was Peter Doherty in the 1930's, who was also accorded the honour of being NI's first ever Manager (when responsibility for picking the team passed from a Board of Selectors). He was followed by Jackie Vernon, a Falls Road butcher and Belfast Celtic player, who was so honoured even after having first played twice for Eire in 1946! Moreover, Vernon was the only NI player on the "GB" team which played the Rest of Europe in a benefit match for FIFA in Glasgow, in 1947.
And Dublin-born Johnny Carey also captained "Ireland" (i.e. NI) in the 40's. despite his having previously captained Eire on a number of occasions. Also in the 40's and 50's, Southerner Con Martin (father of Mick), was also picked to captain "Ireland" (NI), despite his, too, having previously captained Eire.
You wouldn't mind explaining this again for me EG, cos I frankly am not getting this. Bear in mind that I don't know when the north and south stopped playing together, but can you tell me who the first catholic captain of the northern ireland soccer team was, this team representing only the 6 counties now known as Northern Ireland.
Quote from: Take Your Points on January 06, 2009, 09:22:09 PM
She sounded lost to the North with not a single reference to her roots. I know it may seem niaive but I have become somewhat disillusioned as I am a great believer in remembering where you came from.
Says the Tyrone man.
Quote from: ONeill on January 06, 2009, 09:35:24 PM
Quote from: Take Your Points on January 06, 2009, 09:22:09 PM
She sounded lost to the North with not a single reference to her roots. I know it may seem niaive but I have become somewhat disillusioned as I am a great believer in remembering where you came from.
Says the Tyrone man.
How's Belfast?
Quote from: Bogball XV on January 06, 2009, 09:30:03 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on January 06, 2009, 04:26:26 PM
More pertinently, there have been a number of post-partition captains before MON whom I know to have been Catholic. The first of these was Peter Doherty in the 1930's, who was also accorded the honour of being NI's first ever Manager (when responsibility for picking the team passed from a Board of Selectors). He was followed by Jackie Vernon, a Falls Road butcher and Belfast Celtic player, who was so honoured even after having first played twice for Eire in 1946! Moreover, Vernon was the only NI player on the "GB" team which played the Rest of Europe in a benefit match for FIFA in Glasgow, in 1947.
And Dublin-born Johnny Carey also captained "Ireland" (i.e. NI) in the 40's. despite his having previously captained Eire on a number of occasions. Also in the 40's and 50's, Southerner Con Martin (father of Mick), was also picked to captain "Ireland" (NI), despite his, too, having previously captained Eire.
You wouldn't mind explaining this again for me EG, cos I frankly am not getting this. Bear in mind that I don't know when the north and south stopped playing together, but can you tell me who the first catholic captain of the northern ireland soccer team was, this team representing only the 6 counties now known as Northern Ireland.
From what I can make of it there were two Peter Doherty and Charlie Vernon both pre about 1955?. Coincidentally did Bertie Peacock ever captain NI? I know he was the main player on the 1958 team, Just curious?By the way EG I particulary liked your point about how Jim Cleary would get more cheers than Gary Hamilton as it contradicts totally with your point about O Neill being a culchie. As far as I am aware Jim Cleary was from fermanagh which is about as far from belfast as it is possible to be in NI. He did play for a belfast team, Glentoran but the so did O Neill, Distillery. Did you manage to grab any of those straws on the way past?
Quote from: Take Your Points on January 06, 2009, 09:22:09 PM
President McAleese comes across very well, more as a very positive educator/inspiration.
I still remember that day and how well she spoke about becoming President while recalling her roots in Belfast.
it was very interesting to hear the President talk about her home parish, the great people of the area and their many talents. Apparently her home parish is now in Roscommon!
Her father Paddy Leneghan was from Croghan parish in our fair land.
She now has a house in the neighbouring parish of Ardcarne( near Cootehall) where I almost had the privilege of running her down one day on the narrow road from her house to the village as her,Martin and a fat red faced Detective minder walked along. :-[
Anyway we didnt burn her out unlike the nice Belfast folk so maybe that might tinge her views a little ;)
Quote from: Bogball XV on January 06, 2009, 09:30:03 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on January 06, 2009, 04:26:26 PM
More pertinently, there have been a number of post-partition captains before MON whom I know to have been Catholic. The first of these was Peter Doherty in the 1930's, who was also accorded the honour of being NI's first ever Manager (when responsibility for picking the team passed from a Board of Selectors). He was followed by Jackie Vernon, a Falls Road butcher and Belfast Celtic player, who was so honoured even after having first played twice for Eire in 1946! Moreover, Vernon was the only NI player on the "GB" team which played the Rest of Europe in a benefit match for FIFA in Glasgow, in 1947.
And Dublin-born Johnny Carey also captained "Ireland" (i.e. NI) in the 40's. despite his having previously captained Eire on a number of occasions. Also in the 40's and 50's, Southerner Con Martin (father of Mick), was also picked to captain "Ireland" (NI), despite his, too, having previously captained Eire.
You wouldn't mind explaining this again for me EG, cos I frankly am not getting this. Bear in mind that I don't know when the north and south stopped playing together, but can you tell me who the first catholic captain of the northern ireland soccer team was, this team representing only the 6 counties now known as Northern Ireland.
It's actually a big ask to identify when the first "Northern Ireland" as opposed to "Ireland" match was. There's no clear-cut date and various records have taken their pick from 1921, 1923, 1926, 1950, 1954 or simply post-war...
Quote from: Take Your Points on January 06, 2009, 09:22:09 PM
Quote from: Main Street on January 06, 2009, 01:05:52 PM
President McAleese comes across very well, more as a very positive educator/inspiration.
I used to think that and had the privilege to graduate from QUB in 1999 when she received an honourary doctorate from her old employers whenshe became President. I still remember that day and how well she spoke about becoming President while recalling her roots in Belfast.
it may seem niaive but I have become somewhat disillusioned as I am a great believer in remembering where you came from.
Just before the turn of the year in 1998 wasn't it? My dad got his masters that day, don't remember much of President McAleese's speech though. Got a couple of snaps somewhere though!
Quote from: magickingdom on January 06, 2009, 06:53:37 PM
mon carries himself like a man comfortable in his skin with nothing to prove to anyone. i like his point that he can play for ni and it doesnt make him any less irish (obviously true but i like that he makes it). if he becomes man u manager i will have to ditch my long held hatred/bigotry towards them and start supporting them. that will be tough but it will be done :D
f**k as much as I respect the man,I could never find a soft spot for Manchester United- well maybe the Bog of Allen. :D :D :D :D
Quote from: MW on January 06, 2009, 10:56:28 PM
Quote from: Take Your Points on January 06, 2009, 09:22:09 PM
Quote from: Main Street on January 06, 2009, 01:05:52 PM
President McAleese comes across very well, more as a very positive educator/inspiration.
I used to think that and had the privilege to graduate from QUB in 1999 when she received an honourary doctorate from her old employers whenshe became President. I still remember that day and how well she spoke about becoming President while recalling her roots in Belfast.
it may seem niaive but I have become somewhat disillusioned as I am a great believer in remembering where you came from.
Just before the turn of the year in 1998 wasn't it? My dad got his masters that day, don't remember much of President McAleese's speech though. Got a couple of snaps somewhere though!
It was Christmas 1998 - graduated the same day myself along with Lawrence McKeown and Dara O'Hagan.
Quote from: MW on January 06, 2009, 10:53:19 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on January 06, 2009, 09:30:03 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on January 06, 2009, 04:26:26 PM
More pertinently, there have been a number of post-partition captains before MON whom I know to have been Catholic. The first of these was Peter Doherty in the 1930's, who was also accorded the honour of being NI's first ever Manager (when responsibility for picking the team passed from a Board of Selectors). He was followed by Jackie Vernon, a Falls Road butcher and Belfast Celtic player, who was so honoured even after having first played twice for Eire in 1946! Moreover, Vernon was the only NI player on the "GB" team which played the Rest of Europe in a benefit match for FIFA in Glasgow, in 1947.
And Dublin-born Johnny Carey also captained "Ireland" (i.e. NI) in the 40's. despite his having previously captained Eire on a number of occasions. Also in the 40's and 50's, Southerner Con Martin (father of Mick), was also picked to captain "Ireland" (NI), despite his, too, having previously captained Eire.
You wouldn't mind explaining this again for me EG, cos I frankly am not getting this. Bear in mind that I don't know when the north and south stopped playing together, but can you tell me who the first catholic captain of the northern ireland soccer team was, this team representing only the 6 counties now known as Northern Ireland.
It's actually a big ask to identify when the first "Northern Ireland" as opposed to "Ireland" match was. There's no clear-cut date and various records have taken their pick from 1921, 1923, 1926, 1950, 1954 or simply post-war...
There was me thinking it was a simple question too. Surely it can't be that difficult? Would it not be when 2 irish teams first played internationals simultaneously?
Quote from: slow corner back on January 06, 2009, 10:02:18 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on January 06, 2009, 09:30:03 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on January 06, 2009, 04:26:26 PM
More pertinently, there have been a number of post-partition captains before MON whom I know to have been Catholic. The first of these was Peter Doherty in the 1930's, who was also accorded the honour of being NI's first ever Manager (when responsibility for picking the team passed from a Board of Selectors). He was followed by Jackie Vernon, a Falls Road butcher and Belfast Celtic player, who was so honoured even after having first played twice for Eire in 1946! Moreover, Vernon was the only NI player on the "GB" team which played the Rest of Europe in a benefit match for FIFA in Glasgow, in 1947.
And Dublin-born Johnny Carey also captained "Ireland" (i.e. NI) in the 40's. despite his having previously captained Eire on a number of occasions. Also in the 40's and 50's, Southerner Con Martin (father of Mick), was also picked to captain "Ireland" (NI), despite his, too, having previously captained Eire.
You wouldn't mind explaining this again for me EG, cos I frankly am not getting this. Bear in mind that I don't know when the north and south stopped playing together, but can you tell me who the first catholic captain of the northern ireland soccer team was, this team representing only the 6 counties now known as Northern Ireland.
From what I can make of it there were two Peter Doherty and Charlie Vernon both pre about 1955?. Coincidentally did Bertie Peacock ever captain NI? I know he was the main player on the 1958 team, Just curious?By the way EG I particulary liked your point about how Jim Cleary would get more cheers than Gary Hamilton as it contradicts totally with your point about O Neill being a culchie. As far as I am aware Jim Cleary was from fermanagh which is about as far from belfast as it is possible to be in NI. He did play for a belfast team, Glentoran but the so did O Neill, Distillery. Did you manage to grab any of those straws on the way past?
Were there though? I could only see that Vernon and Doherty both captained teams, but I couldn't discern what those teams were called and who or where they represented, I'm not really that interested, just wanted to see if EG was being pedantic as I'd be surprised if O'Neill was been wrong with his facts (I think the former might well be the case though).
Quote from: Bogball XV on January 06, 2009, 11:27:03 PM
Quote from: MW on January 06, 2009, 10:53:19 PMYou wouldn't mind explaining this again for me EG, cos I frankly am not getting this. Bear in mind that I don't know when the north and south stopped playing together, but can you tell me who the first catholic captain of the northern ireland soccer team was, this team representing only the 6 counties now known as Northern Ireland.
It's actually a big ask to identify when the first "Northern Ireland" as opposed to "Ireland" match was. There's no clear-cut date and various records have taken their pick from 1921, 1923, 1926, 1950, 1954 or simply post-war...
There was me thinking it was a simple question too. Surely it can't be that difficult? Would it not be when 2 irish teams first played internationals simultaneously? [/quote]
That would be one definition. The Irish Free State played its first full international match in 1926. However the Ireland team as selected by the IFA continued just as before. The IFA fiercely resisted having its team restricted to Northern Ireland, and continued to use the name Ireland.
You could call the IFA teams in the late 1920s and the 1930s Northern Ireland, as many record books do, but they contained (often substantial) southern continigents and were officially called Ireland. (Meanwhile the FAI began to use the name Ireland too in 1936). The last "All-Ireland" (i.e. with southern players) team the IFA selected was actually in 1950.
It wasn't until 1954 that FIFA ruled that the IFA team should be called Northern Ireland and the FAI team the Republic of Ireland. (Even then the IFA were permitted to retain the right to call its team Ireland for the Home Internationals. It was only really in the 1970s that the IFA, fans and media alike used Northern Ireland habitally as the team's name - looking a programme cover from the 1960s for instance would likely show "Ireland" for a Home International and "Northern Ireland" (with a Tiny "Northern") for a World Cup or European Nations Cup game.)
So first Northern Ireland as opposed to Ireland match? Could be 1921, when the FAI broke away and the island was partitioned. Could be 1923, when the FAI (as the FAIFS) was admitted to FIFA and granted the right to select an Irish Free State team. Could be 1926, when the Free State played its first game. Could be 1950, when the IFA fielded its last "All-Ireland" team. Or it could be 1954, when the title Northern Ireland was inaugurated.
Quote from: Donagh on January 06, 2009, 11:11:17 PM
Quote from: MW on January 06, 2009, 10:56:28 PM
Quote from: Take Your Points on January 06, 2009, 09:22:09 PM
Quote from: Main Street on January 06, 2009, 01:05:52 PM
President McAleese comes across very well, more as a very positive educator/inspiration.
I used to think that and had the privilege to graduate from QUB in 1999 when she received an honourary doctorate from her old employers whenshe became President. I still remember that day and how well she spoke about becoming President while recalling her roots in Belfast.
it may seem niaive but I have become somewhat disillusioned as I am a great believer in remembering where you came from.
Just before the turn of the year in 1998 wasn't it? My dad got his masters that day, don't remember much of President McAleese's speech though. Got a couple of snaps somewhere though!
It was Christmas 1998 - graduated the same day myself along with Lawrence McKeown and Dara O'Hagan.
Thought so - bit of a mixed bag in the Whitla Hall that day then :o
Quote from: Donagh on January 06, 2009, 11:27:42 AM
Quote from: baoithe on January 06, 2009, 11:15:55 AM
The second lecture was the best of them. Very interesting.
The third lecture by Padraig O Ceidigh was interesting and could even be inspiring but it struck me that he was reciting a motivational talk that he often gives. Also, to my mind, he didn't answer the audience's questions adequately.
Aye I heard the Louise Richardson one. It was interesting but I got the impression if she was answering the question on "what it means to be Irish to me", her answer would be "not a lot".
She wasn't speaking on what it means to be Irish - her lecture was on Ireland's role in the world. Each of the three lectures had different topics under the overall heading of "Ireland of Tomorrow". Padraig O Ceidigh's lecture was, I think, a consideration of whether Ireland was an economy or society.
Quote from: Evil Genius on January 06, 2009, 04:26:26 PM
Once again you distort and misrepresent what I posted.
No I didn't. I would also be happy if you could give examples of my previous distortions and misrepesentations which allow you to use the words "Once again".
Quote from: Evil Genius on January 06, 2009, 04:26:26 PM
Once again you distort and misrepresent what I posted. MON has in the past commented that he wasn't so popular with (a section of) the NI supporters e.g. as Sammy McIlroy. I accept that one of the reasons for this may have been his Nationalist background etc.
Good, because in the original post I refer to, you were unable to accept such a suggestion. Progress of sorts. Which is good.
Quote from: Evil Genius on January 06, 2009, 04:26:26 PM
But I suggest that an additional reason may be that Sammy Mac played for MU - by far the most popular club team in NI; also, because he (and the McCreerys) are local boys, and with soccer being a predominantly urban game in NI and the majority of the crowd being from Belfast, such a reaction is no more remarkable e.g. than a Glentoran player (Jimmy Cleary?) getting a bigger cheer than, say, a Portadown player (Gary Hamilton?)
The use of the word
additional is new. I have debated the rest of your point above before and there remain so many holes in it and so little time left in my life that I am loathe to involve myself in the circular argument that will ensue.
The rest of your post is totally irrelevant. However, you should keep a copy and just paste it into any thread you want to contribute to.
Tbrick, was that Fr. Leo Deery? He was indeed a big Our Martin fan and mentioned him in the brochure for the opening of the Pearses' Kilrea GFC new pitch in 1979.
To see what Our Martin has achieved and to know where he comes from is inspiration in itself.
Quote from: ziggysego on January 06, 2009, 09:37:35 PM
Quote from: ONeill on January 06, 2009, 09:35:24 PM
Quote from: Take Your Points on January 06, 2009, 09:22:09 PM
She sounded lost to the North with not a single reference to her roots. I know it may seem niaive but I have become somewhat disillusioned as I am a great believer in remembering where you came from.
Says the Tyrone man.
How's Belfast?
Looks fine to me but I only get to see glimpses of it between 8.30 and 4.00 before I head home.
In an aside, nice to see the Vernon family getting a name check. While "Sausage" Vernon preferred to stick to the soccer, his brothers Hugh and Charlie (grandfather of Charlie Vernon of Armagh?) both played football for Antrim and I think both won Railway Cup medals with Ulster in the 1940's.
Quote from: A Quinn Martin Production on January 07, 2009, 02:07:32 PM
In an aside, nice to see the Vernon family getting a name check. While "Sausage" Vernon preferred to stick to the soccer, his brothers Hugh and Charlie (grandfather of Charlie Vernon of Armagh?) both played football for Antrim and I think both won Railway Cup medals with Ulster in the 1940's.
Happy to oblige, QM. And at the risk of taking this thread (temporarily) off topic, here is an interesting Bio of him, which indicates just what an outstanding soccer player he really was:
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2006/12/jackie-vernon.html
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_BIS_R7_5YVU/RZADhD-heBI/AAAAAAAAAPA/p8ARqcuecJw/s1600-h/VernonJ.jpg)
Name: John Joseph Vernon
Born: 26 September 1918, Belfast
Height: 6.01 ft
Weight: 11.07 st
Died: 24 August 1981, Belfast
Position: Centre-Half
Representative Honours: Ireland: 17 Full Caps (1946-1951), 3 Victory Caps (1945-1946); Eire: 2 Full Caps (1946); Great Britain (vs Rest of Europe, 1947); Rest of Britain (vs Wales, 1951).
Club Honours: (with Belfast Celtic) Irish League Champion 1939/40; Northern Regional (War-Time) League 1940/41, 1941/42, 1942/43, 1946/47; Irish Cup Winner 1940/41, 1942/43, 1943/44; (with West Brom) Football League Division Two Runner-Up 1948/49 (promoted); (with Crusaders) Ulster Cup Winner 1953/54.
Club Career:
Clubs............... --Seasons-- Signed -Fee- League FACup
Dundela (Irish Intermediate League)
Belfast Celtic (Irish League)
West Bromwich Albion 46/47-51/52 Feb-47 £9500 190/ 1 10/ 0
Crusaders (Irish League)
Biography:
Standing over six foot, and amazingly sporting just size five boots, Jackie Vernon was regarded as one of the best defenders in the world during the imediate post-war period.
John Joseph Vernon was born in Jocelyn Avenue, Belfast in 1918 and when he left school to learn his trade in the family butchery business, he served his time in football's unofficial apprenticeship scheme with Spearmint FC - a summer League team - and then Dundela.
A rugged centre-half, Vernon rejected an early approach by Liverpool and decided instead to sign for Belfast Celtic where his education continued in the second team. Promotion to the first-team duty came at the outbreak of the war when departing players made a place in defence for the 21-year-old Vernon. He accepted the chance with relish as Celtic collected their fifth successive Irish League Championship.
International honours followed in the 1945/46 with three 'Victory' caps and, as Vernon's reputation continued to spread, he won two caps for the Eire in June 1946 (the only time Northern born players were included in an FAI select) and the first of 17 full (Northern) Ireland international caps against England that September.
Following Celtic's 3-2 defeat by Linfield at Paradise, on Saturday, 8 February 1947, West Bromwich Albion had a £9,500 bid accepted for Vernon. Glasgow Celtic could have paid a lot less; Parkhead manager Jimmy McCrory thought their Belfast counterpart's £8,000 valuation was too high.
Later that year Vernon played for the Great Britain against the Rest of Europe at Hampden Park, and later he captained a Rest of Britain team against Wales as the FAW celebrated their 75th anniversary at Ninian Park in 1951.
In 1949 Vernon captained West Brom to promotion from the Second Division, as runners-up to Fulham, and the same season he scored his only goal for the club, on Christmas Day in a 1-0 win over Sheffield Wednesday. Having helped the club cement their place in the English top-flight Vernon returned to the Irish League in 1952 as player-manager of Crusaders, the club which three years earlier had taken Belfast Celtic's place in the Irish League.
Jackie Vernon returned to the butchery trade, but died suddenly in 1981, aged just 62-years-old.
Ireland Cap Details:
28-09-1946 England. H L 2-7 BC
27-11-1946 Scotland A D 0-0 BC
16-04-1947 Wales... H W 2-1 BC
04-10-1947 Scotland H W 2-0 BC
05-11-1947 England. A D 2-2 BC
10-03-1948 Wales... A L 0-2 BC
09-10-1948 England. H L 2-6 BC
17-11-1948 Scotland A L 2-3 BC
09-03-1949 Wales... H L 0-2 BC
01-10-1949 Scotland H L 2-8 WCQ/BC
06-11-1949 England. A L 2-9 WCQ/BC
07-10-1950 England. H L 1-4 BC
01-11-1950 Scotland A L 1-6 BC
07-03-1951 Wales... H L 1-2 BC
12-05-1951 France.. H D 2-2 FR
06-10-1951 Scotland H L 0-3 BC
20-11-1951 England. A L 0-2 BC
Summary: 17/0. Won 2, Drew 3, Lost 12.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_BIS_R7_5YVU/RZAG9z-heDI/AAAAAAAAAPQ/d20M0UOi-ho/s1600-h/i05_j_vernon.jpg)
"Born in Jocelyn Ave"?? That's Castlereagh/Woodstock Rd area?? I thought he was a Westie born and bred. I know his butcher's shop was on the Springfield Rd.
Quote from: boojangles on January 06, 2009, 11:09:59 PM
Quote from: magickingdom on January 06, 2009, 06:53:37 PM
mon carries himself like a man comfortable in his skin with nothing to prove to anyone. i like his point that he can play for ni and it doesnt make him any less irish (obviously true but i like that he makes it). if he becomes man u manager i will have to ditch my long held hatred/bigotry towards them and start supporting them. that will be tough but it will be done :D
f**k as much as I respect the man,I could never find a soft spot for Manchester United- well maybe the Bog of Allen. :D :D :D :D
yeah! forgive me it was a weak moment :D