Is there no end to those scumbags in Limerick, the guy murdered last night played rugby for Garryowen and just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Very very sad news.
Why did it happen? is there a link?
edit to say i meant link to the story not link to anything criminal or like that...
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1109/limerick.html (http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1109/limerick.html)
QuoteA post mortem examination is being carried out on the body of a man who was found dead in the Dooradoyle area of Limerick city early this morning.
Gardaí believe the man may have been a victim of mistaken identity.
Gardaí responded to a 999 call after local people heard a number of shots in the Kilteragh housing estate shortly after 1.30am.
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Following a search of the estate, they discovered the body of a man at the rear of a house in the Clonmore area.
It is understood he had been shot.
A wide area around the scene where the body was found was sealed off and a technical team as well as the State Pathologist Dr Marie Cassidy were called in to assist with the investigation.
Gardaí have established that the victim had visited friends in the estate to watch the Ireland-Canada rugby match and was on his way home when he was shot.
Not sure if all the details have been released yet but a friend of mine is the ERU down there and told me this morning.
absolute scumbags, they respect nothing. if ever the law gets serious with these fockers there might be some hope. imaging if they catch these guys and convict them of murder (no easy trick in ireland) they wont spend 10 years in the slammer! unreal. a chain gang is too good for them
The victims are the only ones that keep suffering, take a life and get convicted they should do life!!!
QuoteThe victims are the only ones that keep suffering, take a life and get convicted they should do life!!!
I don't understand how murder does not result in life behind bars. This craic of getting 10 or 14 years is a joke.
Personally, I blame smart-arse lawyers for getting scumbags off with crimes such as this.
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 10, 2008, 09:59:17 AM
Personally, I blame smart-arse lawyers for getting scumbags off with crimes such as this.
How do you figure this?
Yes i agree i think lawyers should only accept good crimes
Quote from: full back on November 10, 2008, 10:02:06 AM
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 10, 2008, 09:59:17 AM
Personally, I blame smart-arse lawyers for getting scumbags off with crimes such as this.
How do you figure this?
Call it experience or call it what you will. I think that if you look at the way scumbags are sentenced that the sentencing reports their briefs have introduced always plays a part in determining how long they will spend in jail.
Actually, just call it experience, bitter experience.
What if the person is innocent?
I think there are enough instances of innocent people being blamed for crimes they didnt commit.
How would you rectify this?
I know, if the cops/garda suspect someone, lock them up, fcuk the trial ::)
I think the law/judges needs to be looked at before blaming the lawyers
So should there be a group of stupid lawyers to represent the scumbags?
Quote from: full back on November 10, 2008, 10:08:31 AM
What if the person is innocent?
I think there are enough instances of innocent people being blamed for crimes they didnt commit.
How would you rectify this?
I know, if the cops/garda suspect someone, lock them up, fcuk the trial ::)
I think the law/judges needs to be looked at before blaming the lawyers
My comments only apply to scumbags fullback
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 10, 2008, 10:11:19 AM
Quote from: full back on November 10, 2008, 10:08:31 AM
What if the person is innocent?
I think there are enough instances of innocent people being blamed for crimes they didnt commit.
How would you rectify this?
I know, if the cops/garda suspect someone, lock them up, fcuk the trial ::)
I think the law/judges needs to be looked at before blaming the lawyers
My comments only apply to scumbags fullback
::)
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 10, 2008, 10:11:19 AM
Quote from: full back on November 10, 2008, 10:08:31 AM
What if the person is innocent?
I think there are enough instances of innocent people being blamed for crimes they didnt commit.
How would you rectify this?
I know, if the cops/garda suspect someone, lock them up, fcuk the trial ::)
I think the law/judges needs to be looked at before blaming the lawyers
My comments only apply to scumbags fullback
So if someone is viewed as a sc**bag, they are guilty?
Quote from: full back on November 10, 2008, 10:16:09 AM
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 10, 2008, 10:11:19 AM
Quote from: full back on November 10, 2008, 10:08:31 AM
What if the person is innocent?
I think there are enough instances of innocent people being blamed for crimes they didnt commit.
How would you rectify this?
I know, if the cops/garda suspect someone, lock them up, fcuk the trial ::)
I think the law/judges needs to be looked at before blaming the lawyers
My comments only apply to scumbags fullback
So if someone is viewed as a sc**bag, they are guilty?
reminds me of that film, twelve angry men, with henry fonda.
What is the thread about fullback? ::)
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 10, 2008, 10:19:47 AM
What is the thread about fullback? ::)
In fairness - it was a ridiculous comment.
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 10, 2008, 10:19:47 AM
What is the thread about fullback? ::)
The thread is about a rugby player who was murdered....
You then said "Personally, I blame smart-arse lawyers for getting scumbags off with crimes such as this."
So, tell me again what the thread is about ::)
Quote from: magickingdom on November 09, 2008, 09:30:09 PM
absolute scumbags, they respect nothing. if ever the law gets serious with these fockers there might be some hope. imaging if they catch these guys and convict them of murder (no easy trick in ireland) they wont spend 10 years in the slammer! unreal. a chain gang is too good for them
Quote from: milltown row on November 09, 2008, 09:36:05 PM
The victims are the only ones that keep suffering, take a life and get convicted they should do life!!!
Quote from: nrico2006 on November 10, 2008, 09:07:01 AM
I don't understand how murder does not result in life behinds bars. This craic of getting 10 or 14 years is a joke.
Just to help you out fullback, there is 3 comments made before I replied and I replied in the same vein as the other posters.
What exactly is your problem with what I said?
Or are you getting personal?
Of course he's not getting personal - he's merely pointing out that your comment was ludicrous, others including myself agree.
How the fcuk am I getting personal ::)
Paranoia methinks.....
Anyway, the comments you made were directed against lawyers, no-one else
Other posters have criticised the law & the length of prison sentences
So your post isnt in the same vein
The problem I have is that you seem to be blaming lawyers for this ???
The lawyers work within the confines of the law.
Everyone is entitled to put on a defense, even scumbags.
The laws of the land would be a joke if not for the fact that innocent people are being killed and their murderers are getting off either scott free or they get mickey mouse sentences.
The laws need to be a direct reflection of the severity of the crime. If you kill someone in cold blood you should never see the light of day again. End of.
The yanks take a lot of stick on this board but I tell you what, they know how to pass down a sentence, death penalty states aside of course. ;)
Yeh - that must be why the homicide rate in the US is so much lower than in the rest of the world.
QuoteThe yanks take a lot of stick on this board but I tell you what, they know how to pass down a sentence,
Especially if you happen to be black.
Quote from: bignifanatic on November 10, 2008, 02:11:56 PM
The laws need to be a direct reflection of the severity of the crime. If you kill someone in cold blood you should never see the light of day again. End of.
Any evidence to support that this makes a good penal code.
I wonder how the prisons system would be able to handle inmates with no release date and no hope of a release date ever.
Quote from: Main Street on November 10, 2008, 02:44:44 PM
Quote from: bignifanatic on November 10, 2008, 02:11:56 PM
The laws need to be a direct reflection of the severity of the crime. If you kill someone in cold blood you should never see the light of day again. End of.
Any evidence to support that this makes a good penal code.
I wonder how the prisons system would be able to handle inmates with no release date and no hope of a release date ever.
Interestingly, lawyers are quite united in their objection to the current mandatory sentence of 20 years for murder on the basis that judges cannot give harsher sentences. Put another way, Irish sentencing takes no account of how serious a murder(s) is/are, not to say there are trivial ones, but a serial killer or hitman gets the same sentence as the guy who gets in a fight with someone with a weak skull in a pub and there is no reason for anyone to plead guilty/ help the authorities.
Put another way, you get 20 years if you lose your temper and punch and kill someone, are genuinely contrite and plead guilty. You get 20 years if you kidnap and kill 20 kids, plead not guilty and dont tell anyone where the bodies are.
Quote from: dublinfella on November 10, 2008, 03:37:14 PM
Interestingly, lawyers are quite united in their objection to the current mandatory sentence of 20 years for murder on the basis that judges cannot give harsher sentences
Everything I have read is that the lawyers are objecting because the judges can not give more lenient sentence
That there needs to be more tiers on the downward scale of sentencing.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/0129/1201501665039.html (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/0129/1201501665039.html)
'The law on homicide in Ireland is divided into murder and manslaughter. The first charge arises if a person intends to kill or cause serious injury to another person, who dies as a result. It carries a mandatory life sentence, whether the murder is carefully planned and executed by someone like a contract killer, or happens on the spur of the moment among people who knew each other well. The commission believes sentencing should reflect these variables'.
full back, Ok, I am blaming lawyers for situations where criminals get low sentences for heinous crimes or even let off altogether. I am sure you know the sort of thing I am talking about
Lawyers manipulate the law on a lot of occasions when their clients should have went to jail for a VERY long time. Some of them are even close to breaking the law but the system works for them because they know it intimately. So, in essence, the law probably needs changed to prevent smart lawyers from getting away with it, in practice however, scumbags will still get off with ridiculous sentences, such as 3 1/2 years for stabbing someone to death.
Judges are hampered by legislation in terms of sentencing, as far as I understand the situation, so the blame doesn't lie with them.
To bignifanatic, yes, lawyers within the confines of the law, mostly
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 10, 2008, 06:07:01 PM
full back, Ok, I am blaming lawyers for situations where criminals get low sentences for heinous crimes or even let off altogether. I am sure you know the sort of thing I am talking about
Lawyers manipulate the law on a lot of occasions when their clients should have went to jail for a VERY long time. Some of them are even close to breaking the law but the system works for them because they know it intimately. So, in essence, the law probably needs changed to prevent smart lawyers from getting away with it, in practice however, scumbags will still get off with ridiculous sentences, such as 3 1/2 years for stabbing someone to death.
Judges are hampered by legislation in terms of sentencing, as far as I understand the situation, so the blame doesn't lie with them.
To bignifanatic, yes, lawyers within the confines of the law, mostly
Jesus Ardmhacha is getting an unfair touch here lads.
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 10, 2008, 06:07:01 PM
full back, Ok, I am blaming lawyers for situations where criminals get low sentences for heinous crimes or even let off altogether. I am sure you know the sort of thing I am talking about
Lawyers manipulate the law on a lot of occasions when their clients should have went to jail for a VERY long time. Some of them are even close to breaking the law but the system works for them because they know it intimately. So, in essence, the law probably needs changed to prevent smart lawyers from getting away with it, in practice however, scumbags will still get off with ridiculous sentences, such as 3 1/2 years for stabbing someone to death.
Judges are hampered by legislation in terms of sentencing, as far as I understand the situation, so the blame doesn't lie with them.
To bignifanatic, yes, lawyers within the confines of the law, mostly
If lawyers are found to have broken the law, then disbar and prosecute them. Otherwise, let them do their jobs. Their obligation is to their client, whether that is the state or the defendant. I would expect any lawyer I'm hiring to know the law intimately, otherwise, what is the point in hiring him? The burden of proof is on the state, not the defendant's legal team. If there is a problem with sentencing, then get the government to set tougher standards. If the problem is with intimidation of witnesses, I'm not sure what can be done (depends on the individual case I suppose), but blaming the lawyer is hardly the answer, unless he is a party to it.
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 10, 2008, 06:07:01 PM
full back, Ok, I am blaming lawyers for situations where criminals get low sentences for heinous crimes or even let off altogether. I am sure you know the sort of thing I am talking about
Lawyers manipulate the law on a lot of occasions when their clients should have went to jail for a VERY long time. Some of them are even close to breaking the law but the system works for them because they know it intimately. So, in essence, the law probably needs changed to prevent smart lawyers from getting away with it, in practice however, scumbags will still get off with ridiculous sentences, such as 3 1/2 years for stabbing someone to death.
Judges are hampered by legislation in terms of sentencing, as far as I understand the situation, so the blame doesn't lie with them.
To bignifanatic, yes, lawyers within the confines of the law, mostly
So basically you are having a go at people for doing their job. We have an adversarial legal system. Solicitors and counsel for the defence have a duty to do the best for their client, they would be professionally negligent were they not to do so. If you have a problem with the system, blame those who put it in place.
Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on November 10, 2008, 07:06:52 PM
So basically you are having a go at people for doing their job. We have an adversial legal system. Solicitors and counsel for the defence have a duty to do the best for their client, they would be professionally negligent were they not to do so. If you have a problem with the system, blame those who put it in place.
He appears to have a problem with the concept of the presumption of innocence and 'scumbags' (whats the criteria?) having the audicity to enter a defence.
All of which entirely misses the point of this terrible story.
QuotePut another way, you get 20 years if you lose your temper and punch and kill someone, are genuinely contrite and plead guilty. You get 20 years if you kidnap and kill 20 kids, plead not guilty and dont tell anyone where the bodies are.
To be fair dublinfella if you punch someone and they die you'd go down for manslaughter, not murder.
As for blaming solicitors for doing their jobs, well that's just ridiculous.
Jim, spot on there. I was having the same conversation here at work (in Limerick) with a lad there a few minutes ago. We were suggesting what should be done about the Limerick situation specificially. There seems to be a big difference, in attitude amongst people, to this murder than some of the others, because basically it's a case of 'there but for the grace of God'. There's genuine anger, rather than just sadness or shame for the city, about this one.
Various things were discussed.
Internment, arrest without trial under special powers, and conduct serious investigations in the Curragh Camp or wherever. Definitely against their human rights, and some innocent people would be picked up before , hopefully, being released. Is this justifiable given the criminals don't seem to have much grá for human rights themselves?
Legalising cannabis. Try and take the criminals revenue stream away from them by providing a controlled, but legal, distribution mechanism like in Amsterdam. Heroin and Cocaine to be still banned, and heavier sentences, draconian almost, for possession and/or supply.
Launching a campaign like the drink driving one, which has been fairly successful in changing attitudes at least, to the recreational drug culture.
My point was similar to yours. We live in a culture where people do not seem to draw the connecting line between them paying €200 quid for a few lines of Coke with their mates, to that money getting siphoned up the system to a lad at the top getting his cut. A cut that people are willing to kill for. It is rank hypocricy for anybody to start ranting about those 'b**tards' in Limerick or Dublin shooting each other, and other innocent victims, while then on a Friday night paying some lad in a side street enough money to go and buy a handgun on the black market. Every line of coke is bullets in a gun for the gangs that run these drug channels in this country. People need to have a long look at themselves, and start to see 'cause and effect' of their actions. The glory, glory lifestyle of people in this country who buy illegal drugs for their own amusement is a big part of why we have drugs 'gangs'. If there were no demand, these apes would have to try and get their money some other way, and bank jobs or robberies are a lot harder to pull off without getting caught.
QuoteMy point was similar to yours. We live in a culture where people do not seem to draw the connecting line between them paying €200 quid for a few lines of Coke with their mates, to that money getting siphoned up the system to a lad at the top getting his cut. A cut that people are willing to kill for. It is rank hypocricy for anybody to start ranting about those 'b**tards' in Limerick or Dublin shooting each other, and other innocent victims, while then on a Friday night paying some lad in a side street enough money to go and buy a handgun on the black market. Every line of coke is bullets in a gun for the gangs that run these drug channels in this country. People need to have a long look at themselves, and start to see 'cause and effect' of their actions. The glory, glory lifestyle of people in this country who buy illegal drugs for their own amusement is a big part of why we have drugs 'gangs'. If there were no demand, these apes would have to try and get their money some other way, and bank jobs or robberies are a lot harder to pull off without getting caught.
I would not be a drug taker myself, but I have mates who would indulge quite regularly on all sorts and I would say they would not be 'drawing the connecting line'. I would not have thought of it like that until I read your post. Good post and a bit of an eye opener. It seems different with this case because as mentioned it was to do with an average Joe going for a few beers in his mates, probably with plans made for his sunday and whatever else and the last thing on his mind was that some cowardly b*stard would shoot him.
You mentioned internment - I don't see how in the area I live that the known 'dealers' continue with their business without getting caught, when it seems pretty easy to catch them out and everybody, including Police, know who these people are.
Why are they free to go about driving their flash cars, living in big houses etc while their only apparent source of income is the dole? Should the police not be putting more of an effort into catching them and attemtping to eradicate the 'drug gangs' instead of focusing their efforts on fining people for pissing on the street corners? I know a fella particularly well who I had always known as being involved with drugs and Im sure pretty much everybody did. About a year ago he was caught with a couple hundred thousand pounds worth in his house. Fair enough he was caught, but this was going on for literally 7/8 years and it took that long for the police to have the intelligence to kick his door down and cut his sofa open? I know of numerous others who 'deal' and they would all be well known yet why is it continuing?
When we have demand, we will always have supply. We may catch some of the current low life who are supplying the thousands of users, but they will be replaced by others as long as there is the demand for the drugs. Some supply may be incepted like last week but that will never stop the supply. The government could take control of all supply by legalising drugs, but that will still not solve other issues such as substance abuse.
The only way I think we will ever stop this from getting worse is to stop demand.
The only way we can do this is making it as difficult as possible to all those users (recreational/addicts) that it doesn't pay to dabble in drugs.
I have never even tried a cigarette and may be a bit naive in this topic but many who do dabble don't see the harm or the risk in drug taking. They need to be made seen that it doesn't pay to ever think about experimenting in drug taking.
We drug test our elite sports people. Many of who are only getting relatively small amounts of money.
I do not see why we can't drug test everyone who receives some financial payment from the government e.g. state jobs/dole/state pension/housing/farm subside etc.
If you test positive then your payments are suspended until a negative test. Sacked from your job if a repeat offender and not employed unless clean. Make it that only those who can afford not to work and don't depend on government assistance to be ones that might even contemplate drug taking.
Quote from: AZOffaly on November 11, 2008, 11:48:34 AM
Jim, spot on there. I was having the same conversation here at work (in Limerick) with a lad there a few minutes ago. We were suggesting what should be done about the Limerick situation specificially. There seems to be a big difference, in attitude amongst people, to this murder than some of the others, because basically it's a case of 'there but for the grace of God'. There's genuine anger, rather than just sadness or shame for the city, about this one.
Various things were discussed.
Internment, arrest without trial under special powers, and conduct serious investigations in the Curragh Camp or wherever. Definitely against their human rights, and some innocent people would be picked up before , hopefully, being released. Is this justifiable given the criminals don't seem to have much grá for human rights themselves?
Legalising cannabis. Try and take the criminals revenue stream away from them by providing a controlled, but legal, distribution mechanism like in Amsterdam. Heroin and Cocaine to be still banned, and heavier sentences, draconian almost, for possession and/or supply.
Launching a campaign like the drink driving one, which has been fairly successful in changing attitudes at least, to the recreational drug culture.
My point was similar to yours. We live in a culture where people do not seem to draw the connecting line between them paying €200 quid for a few lines of Coke with their mates, to that money getting siphoned up the system to a lad at the top getting his cut. A cut that people are willing to kill for. It is rank hypocricy for anybody to start ranting about those 'b**tards' in Limerick or Dublin shooting each other, and other innocent victims, while then on a Friday night paying some lad in a side street enough money to go and buy a handgun on the black market. Every line of coke is bullets in a gun for the gangs that run these drug channels in this country. People need to have a long look at themselves, and start to see 'cause and effect' of their actions. The glory, glory lifestyle of people in this country who buy illegal drugs for their own amusement is a big part of why we have drugs 'gangs'. If there were no demand, these apes would have to try and get their money some other way, and bank jobs or robberies are a lot harder to pull off without getting caught.
Let's hope for his sake something positive will be done this time rather than his death going down as another number in a book.