A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.

Started by winghalfback, May 27, 2015, 03:16:23 PM

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armaghniac

Quote from: T Fearon on January 26, 2016, 06:15:42 PM
Nationalist opinion is split simply due to the fact that a substantial majority North and South (does Irish Nationalism even exist in any significant way in the 26 counties?), does not actually want a United Ireland.

A substantial majority in the south have indicated that they want a United Ireland, your efforts would be better devoted to securing a similar majority in the 6 counties.

Quoteone of the main nationalist parties Westminster members swear oaths of allegiance to the Queen.That is incompatible with a desire for a United Ireland.

How so?
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

T Fearon

When did a "substantial majority" in the South express they're in favour of a United Ireland? Evidence? Is it the policy of any party in the Dáil,apart from Sinn Fein? Why is Northern Ireland part if the Dublin Government's "Foreign Affairs" office?

You cannot swear an oath of allegiance to the Queen and similarly aspire to end her Government's rule "throughout the UK?"

michaelg

Quote from: andoireabu on January 26, 2016, 09:29:13 PM
@ michaelg

If there was to be a New Ireland, what would have to be in it before you would consider voting yes? (I'm assuming you wouldn't at present so forgive me if I am wrong).  Interesting to get a different perspective on it.
To be honest, if I had to decide between remaining within the UK or moving into a UI, I would opt for the former.  As such, it's difficult to say what would have to be in a 'New Ireland, for me to consider voting yes.

Rossfan

I presume all the Labour MPs in Westminster want to end " her Government's rule throughout the UK" ;)
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

T Fearon

By consent.But you cannot be an Irish nationalist party and take an oath of allegiance to the Queen

general_lee

Quote from: michaelg on January 26, 2016, 08:36:36 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 26, 2016, 11:03:51 AM
Reading through the posts here one thing is abundantly clear. Nationalists can't even agree on a discussion forum whether a UI is feasible, desirable or likely to come about. It is also quite clear that despite Tony's wish that it could be different there are two defined narratives, identities and cultures in the North one inherently Irish, the other claiming to be British but which in actual fact is regional and confined almost exclusively to the six counties. The fear  in loyalist communities at present is not about the end of the union but the reality that they are now a minority albeit the biggest minority currently in NI but the days of a catholic majority is a lot closer than a UI and with it will come the clamour for more equality fewer flegs and the spread of Irishness. The threat to the union lies there in as loyalism fades and common cause with the ROI leads to closer cooperation then unity is inevitable. How long it will take depends on the approach of the SDLP and SF in leadership of their respective supporters. Unfortunately from a nationalist perspective the SDLP seem quite happy with the status quo and SF have not really shown any vision of how this united country might shape up. There is no consensus with in nationalism and SF can't quite drop the socialist republic which just won't wash with the voters...outside of some working class ghettos or should we say benefit's class ghettos no one actually wants it. It is time for a national conference or discussion to forge a vision that all so called nationalist parties north and south can subscribe to. But don't hold your breath.
What an arrogant post.  With this sort of attitude you will be a long time persuading Unionists that their best interests lie in a UI.
It's true though. What other former colonies do the natives still call themselves British? Gibraltar? Falklands?

michaelg

Quote from: general_lee on January 26, 2016, 10:30:52 PM
Quote from: michaelg on January 26, 2016, 08:36:36 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 26, 2016, 11:03:51 AM
Reading through the posts here one thing is abundantly clear. Nationalists can't even agree on a discussion forum whether a UI is feasible, desirable or likely to come about. It is also quite clear that despite Tony's wish that it could be different there are two defined narratives, identities and cultures in the North one inherently Irish, the other claiming to be British but which in actual fact is regional and confined almost exclusively to the six counties. The fear  in loyalist communities at present is not about the end of the union but the reality that they are now a minority albeit the biggest minority currently in NI but the days of a catholic majority is a lot closer than a UI and with it will come the clamour for more equality fewer flegs and the spread of Irishness. The threat to the union lies there in as loyalism fades and common cause with the ROI leads to closer cooperation then unity is inevitable. How long it will take depends on the approach of the SDLP and SF in leadership of their respective supporters. Unfortunately from a nationalist perspective the SDLP seem quite happy with the status quo and SF have not really shown any vision of how this united country might shape up. There is no consensus with in nationalism and SF can't quite drop the socialist republic which just won't wash with the voters...outside of some working class ghettos or should we say benefit's class ghettos no one actually wants it. It is time for a national conference or discussion to forge a vision that all so called nationalist parties north and south can subscribe to. But don't hold your breath.
What an arrogant post.  With this sort of attitude you will be a long time persuading Unionists that their best interests lie in a UI.
It's true though. What other former colonies do the natives still call themselves British? Gibraltar? Falklands?
No it isn't.  They do not 'claim' to be British.  They live in the UK and hold British passports.  What gives you the right to tell them how they should feel / identify themselves?

armaghniac

#532
Quote from: general_lee on January 26, 2016, 10:30:52 PM
It's true though. What other former colonies do the natives still call themselves British? Gibraltar? Falklands?

There are probably a few stragglers in Rhodesia and the Gilbert Islands. The sun never sets, you know.

Quote from: michaelg on January 26, 2016, 10:39:03 PM
No it isn't.  They do not 'claim' to be British.  They live in the UK and hold British passports.  What gives you the right to tell them how they should feel / identify themselves?

Probably because it was our country that they colonised.
But then not being allowed comment what unassimilated migrants get up to in your country is all the rage nowadays.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B


general_lee

Quote from: michaelg on January 26, 2016, 10:39:03 PM
Quote from: general_lee on January 26, 2016, 10:30:52 PM
Quote from: michaelg on January 26, 2016, 08:36:36 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 26, 2016, 11:03:51 AM
Reading through the posts here one thing is abundantly clear. Nationalists can't even agree on a discussion forum whether a UI is feasible, desirable or likely to come about. It is also quite clear that despite Tony's wish that it could be different there are two defined narratives, identities and cultures in the North one inherently Irish, the other claiming to be British but which in actual fact is regional and confined almost exclusively to the six counties. The fear  in loyalist communities at present is not about the end of the union but the reality that they are now a minority albeit the biggest minority currently in NI but the days of a catholic majority is a lot closer than a UI and with it will come the clamour for more equality fewer flegs and the spread of Irishness. The threat to the union lies there in as loyalism fades and common cause with the ROI leads to closer cooperation then unity is inevitable. How long it will take depends on the approach of the SDLP and SF in leadership of their respective supporters. Unfortunately from a nationalist perspective the SDLP seem quite happy with the status quo and SF have not really shown any vision of how this united country might shape up. There is no consensus with in nationalism and SF can't quite drop the socialist republic which just won't wash with the voters...outside of some working class ghettos or should we say benefit's class ghettos no one actually wants it. It is time for a national conference or discussion to forge a vision that all so called nationalist parties north and south can subscribe to. But don't hold your breath.
What an arrogant post.  With this sort of attitude you will be a long time persuading Unionists that their best interests lie in a UI.
It's true though. What other former colonies do the natives still call themselves British? Gibraltar? Falklands?
No it isn't.  They do not 'claim' to be British.  They live in the UK and hold British passports.  What gives you the right to tell them how they should feel / identify themselves?
It is. I'm not telling anyone to identify as anything, I support anyone's right to identify as British. I'm just pointing out that there are seemingly  few other parts of the empire where the natives of former colonies aspire to British nationalism the way people here do.

michaelg

Quote from: armaghniac on January 26, 2016, 10:53:55 PM
Quote from: general_lee on January 26, 2016, 10:30:52 PM
It's true though. What other former colonies do the natives still call themselves British? Gibraltar? Falklands?

There are probably a few stragglers in Rhodesia and the Gilbert Islands. The sun never sets, you know.

Quote from: michaelg on January 26, 2016, 10:39:03 PM
No it isn't.  They do not 'claim' to be British.  They live in the UK and hold British passports.  What gives you the right to tell them how they should feel / identify themselves?

Probably because it was our country that they colonised.
But then not being allowed comment what unassimilated migrants get up to in your country is all the rage nowadays.
As articulate as ever.

AQMP

Quote from: michaelg on January 26, 2016, 10:01:39 PM
Quote from: andoireabu on January 26, 2016, 09:29:13 PM
@ michaelg

If there was to be a New Ireland, what would have to be in it before you would consider voting yes? (I'm assuming you wouldn't at present so forgive me if I am wrong).  Interesting to get a different perspective on it.
To be honest, if I had to decide between remaining within the UK or moving into a UI, I would opt for the former.  As such, it's difficult to say what would have to be in a 'New Ireland, for me to consider voting yes.

Probably the most informative post on the whole thread.

armaghniac

Quote from: AQMP on January 27, 2016, 09:18:45 AM
Quote from: michaelg on January 26, 2016, 10:01:39 PM
Quote from: andoireabu on January 26, 2016, 09:29:13 PM
@ michaelg

If there was to be a New Ireland, what would have to be in it before you would consider voting yes? (I'm assuming you wouldn't at present so forgive me if I am wrong).  Interesting to get a different perspective on it.
To be honest, if I had to decide between remaining within the UK or moving into a UI, I would opt for the former.  As such, it's difficult to say what would have to be in a 'New Ireland, for me to consider voting yes.

Probably the most informative post on the whole thread.

But that is the point. There needs to be a lot of hard work done in the meantime to flesh out things, work that has hardly started.
There is a time for events, and progress on this matter isn't really possible when the current news is about the Shankill Bombings and Gerry Adams is still running the show. It is too easy for people to discredit a UI on account of Adams etc, even though it doesn't belong to him and he has been largely an obstacle to it.

The cententary of the founding of NI will see it the unionist "community" as a minority, it will see NI 10% less well off than the 26 counties having been 10% better off when founded, and various events like the Scottish independence debate, Brexit etc, Tory spending cuts, will have exposed the limitations of London rule. Against this background discussion can begin.

Unfortunately, I cannot quite see where the next generation of leadership might come from.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

Applesisapples

Quote from: michaelg on January 26, 2016, 08:36:36 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 26, 2016, 11:03:51 AM
Reading through the posts here one thing is abundantly clear. Nationalists can't even agree on a discussion forum whether a UI is feasible, desirable or likely to come about. It is also quite clear that despite Tony's wish that it could be different there are two defined narratives, identities and cultures in the North one inherently Irish, the other claiming to be British but which in actual fact is regional and confined almost exclusively to the six counties. The fear  in loyalist communities at present is not about the end of the union but the reality that they are now a minority albeit the biggest minority currently in NI but the days of a catholic majority is a lot closer than a UI and with it will come the clamour for more equality fewer flegs and the spread of Irishness. The threat to the union lies there in as loyalism fades and common cause with the ROI leads to closer cooperation then unity is inevitable. How long it will take depends on the approach of the SDLP and SF in leadership of their respective supporters. Unfortunately from a nationalist perspective the SDLP seem quite happy with the status quo and SF have not really shown any vision of how this united country might shape up. There is no consensus with in nationalism and SF can't quite drop the socialist republic which just won't wash with the voters...outside of some working class ghettos or should we say benefit's class ghettos no one actually wants it. It is time for a national conference or discussion to forge a vision that all so called nationalist parties north and south can subscribe to. But don't hold your breath.
What an arrogant post.  With this sort of attitude you will be a long time persuading Unionists that their best interests lie in a UI.
Nothing arrogant about it, what part of the protesting marching culture is actually british? Even the Ulster Scots movement is made up mostly of a Gaelic Culture which was brought to the Scottish Highlands by the Irish.

Applesisapples

Quote from: michaelg on January 26, 2016, 10:39:03 PM
Quote from: general_lee on January 26, 2016, 10:30:52 PM
Quote from: michaelg on January 26, 2016, 08:36:36 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 26, 2016, 11:03:51 AM
Reading through the posts here one thing is abundantly clear. Nationalists can't even agree on a discussion forum whether a UI is feasible, desirable or likely to come about. It is also quite clear that despite Tony's wish that it could be different there are two defined narratives, identities and cultures in the North one inherently Irish, the other claiming to be British but which in actual fact is regional and confined almost exclusively to the six counties. The fear  in loyalist communities at present is not about the end of the union but the reality that they are now a minority albeit the biggest minority currently in NI but the days of a catholic majority is a lot closer than a UI and with it will come the clamour for more equality fewer flegs and the spread of Irishness. The threat to the union lies there in as loyalism fades and common cause with the ROI leads to closer cooperation then unity is inevitable. How long it will take depends on the approach of the SDLP and SF in leadership of their respective supporters. Unfortunately from a nationalist perspective the SDLP seem quite happy with the status quo and SF have not really shown any vision of how this united country might shape up. There is no consensus with in nationalism and SF can't quite drop the socialist republic which just won't wash with the voters...outside of some working class ghettos or should we say benefit's class ghettos no one actually wants it. It is time for a national conference or discussion to forge a vision that all so called nationalist parties north and south can subscribe to. But don't hold your breath.
What an arrogant post.  With this sort of attitude you will be a long time persuading Unionists that their best interests lie in a UI.
It's true though. What other former colonies do the natives still call themselves British? Gibraltar? Falklands?
No it isn't.  They do not 'claim' to be British.  They live in the UK and hold British passports.  What gives you the right to tell them how they should feel / identify themselves?
I was referring to the culture not the person, they may be or feel that the are ethnically British as is there right but culturally?