Would you be in favour of a second tier?

Started by sligoman2, June 26, 2017, 12:34:12 PM

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Would you be in favour of an alternative championship for Div 3 and 4 with winners and runners up rejoining the other championship.

Yes
136 (52.7%)
No
104 (40.3%)
Undecided
18 (7%)

Total Members Voted: 258

lenny

Quote from: Keyser soze on May 16, 2019, 11:24:27 AM
This debate is strikingly similar to the Brexit fiasco.

A number of strident voices whipping up support for an idea as a panacea to perceived inadequacies in the GAA with absolutely no consideration of what the long term consequences will be or even any acknowledgement that there might be negatives associated with the idea.

So we continue with the current fiasco where the strong get stronger and the weak have nothing to play for apart from the dream of getting a big draw and playing out of their skin to keep the defeat in single figures. Anyone who can't see the many negatives with the current setup isn't looking at what's happening and the disenchantment among county players and supporters outside the top 5 or 6 teams.

Esmarelda

Quote from: lenny on May 16, 2019, 02:02:25 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on May 16, 2019, 11:24:27 AM
This debate is strikingly similar to the Brexit fiasco.

A number of strident voices whipping up support for an idea as a panacea to perceived inadequacies in the GAA with absolutely no consideration of what the long term consequences will be or even any acknowledgement that there might be negatives associated with the idea.

So we continue with the current fiasco where the strong get stronger and the weak have nothing to play for apart from the dream of getting a big draw and playing out of their skin to keep the defeat in single figures. Anyone who can't see the many negatives with the current setup isn't looking at what's happening and the disenchantment among county players and supporters outside the top 5 or 6 teams.
If the disenchantment exists to the level you imply then fair enough, a change is needed. Is this the change that's needed? That's a different question. Are Wicklow, London and Waterford players going to think they can now win this particular trophy with Division 3 teams involved? Will we have to revisit this in a few years to make a third and fourth tier and effectively have a duplicate of the league?

Also, maybe getting the big draw and playing out of their skins is more appealing to teams from the lower divisions, I don't know. What says the GPA members?


Keyser soze

Quote from: lenny on May 16, 2019, 02:02:25 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on May 16, 2019, 11:24:27 AM
This debate is strikingly similar to the Brexit fiasco.

A number of strident voices whipping up support for an idea as a panacea to perceived inadequacies in the GAA with absolutely no consideration of what the long term consequences will be or even any acknowledgement that there might be negatives associated with the idea.

So we continue with the current fiasco where the strong get stronger and the weak have nothing to play for apart from the dream of getting a big draw and playing out of their skin to keep the defeat in single figures. Anyone who can't see the many negatives with the current setup isn't looking at what's happening and the disenchantment among county players and supporters outside the top 5 or 6 teams.

So you would have been happy enough with Derry playing Wexford in a Junior championship on sunday past rather than Tyrone in the Ulster championship?

Are you making the argument that tiering will help the weaker teams? I am firmly of the opinion that it will be the last nail in the coffin for weaker counties to the benefit of the stronger ones. 

NO-ONE advocating tiering has ever pointed out the possible downsides to a new system.

Keyser soze

Quote from: Rossfan on May 16, 2019, 02:01:56 PM
But you O knowledgeable one..... know best.

I see what you did there.... very clever. 

sekibanki

Quote from: Keyser soze on May 16, 2019, 02:37:16 PM
Quote from: lenny on May 16, 2019, 02:02:25 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on May 16, 2019, 11:24:27 AM
This debate is strikingly similar to the Brexit fiasco.

A number of strident voices whipping up support for an idea as a panacea to perceived inadequacies in the GAA with absolutely no consideration of what the long term consequences will be or even any acknowledgement that there might be negatives associated with the idea.

So we continue with the current fiasco where the strong get stronger and the weak have nothing to play for apart from the dream of getting a big draw and playing out of their skin to keep the defeat in single figures. Anyone who can't see the many negatives with the current setup isn't looking at what's happening and the disenchantment among county players and supporters outside the top 5 or 6 teams.

So you would have been happy enough with Derry playing Wexford in a Junior championship on sunday past rather than Tyrone in the Ulster championship?

Are you making the argument that tiering will help the weaker teams? I am firmly of the opinion that it will be the last nail in the coffin for weaker counties to the benefit of the stronger ones. 

NO-ONE advocating tiering has ever pointed out the possible downsides to a new system.
Why not both?
We already have the Super 8s, why can't we extend the same group system across two tiers of 16 teams or four tiers of 8? Is it for the best that Derry's summer is over if they lose a preliminary round Ulster game and a first round qualifier, so they basically don't play any football in the summer at all?

JoG2

Quote from: Keyser soze on May 16, 2019, 02:37:16 PM
Quote from: lenny on May 16, 2019, 02:02:25 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on May 16, 2019, 11:24:27 AM
This debate is strikingly similar to the Brexit fiasco.

A number of strident voices whipping up support for an idea as a panacea to perceived inadequacies in the GAA with absolutely no consideration of what the long term consequences will be or even any acknowledgement that there might be negatives associated with the idea.

So we continue with the current fiasco where the strong get stronger and the weak have nothing to play for apart from the dream of getting a big draw and playing out of their skin to keep the defeat in single figures. Anyone who can't see the many negatives with the current setup isn't looking at what's happening and the disenchantment among county players and supporters outside the top 5 or 6 teams.

So you would have been happy enough with Derry playing Wexford in a Junior championship on sunday past rather than Tyrone in the Ulster championship?

Are you making the argument that tiering will help the weaker teams? I am firmly of the opinion that it will be the last nail in the coffin for weaker counties to the benefit of the stronger ones. 

NO-ONE advocating tiering has ever pointed out the possible downsides to a new system.

Is there a 2 tiered proposal out there that includes removing the provincial Championships ? 

Blowitupref

Quote from: Keyser soze on May 16, 2019, 02:37:16 PM
Quote from: lenny on May 16, 2019, 02:02:25 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on May 16, 2019, 11:24:27 AM
This debate is strikingly similar to the Brexit fiasco.

A number of strident voices whipping up support for an idea as a panacea to perceived inadequacies in the GAA with absolutely no consideration of what the long term consequences will be or even any acknowledgement that there might be negatives associated with the idea.

So we continue with the current fiasco where the strong get stronger and the weak have nothing to play for apart from the dream of getting a big draw and playing out of their skin to keep the defeat in single figures. Anyone who can't see the many negatives with the current setup isn't looking at what's happening and the disenchantment among county players and supporters outside the top 5 or 6 teams.

So you would have been happy enough with Derry playing Wexford in a Junior championship on sunday past rather than Tyrone in the Ulster championship?

Are you making the argument that tiering will help the weaker teams? I am firmly of the opinion that it will be the last nail in the coffin for weaker counties to the benefit of the stronger ones.

NO-ONE advocating tiering has ever pointed out the possible downsides to a new system.

It's the way i see it also.
Is the ref going to finally blow his whistle?... No, he's going to blow his nose

Rossfan

For the benefit of those who obviously don't read newspapers or who have no notions of what is happening in GAA world..
The current proposals for a 2nd tier include all Counties playing in their Provincial Championships.
These proposals* (2) are being considered by the 16 D3 and D4 Counties with a view to a motion for the Special Congress in Autumn.
We may all have our own ideas on any new type of graded Championships or we may want to leave things as they are but the above is what's happening in the real World.

Someone mentioned the GPA - it seems most of  their members from the weaker Counties favour a 2nd Tier competition as they'd like to play in a Summer Competition they could entertain a hope of winning.

* 1- All D3 and D4 teams who don't reach a Provincial Final enter the Tier 2. (D3 will include the 2 teams relegated from D2 in that tears NFL)
2 - As at present with all teams entering the Qualifiers , then D3 and D4 teams that get knocked out in Round 1 or 2 enter the Tier 2.
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

Esmarelda

Quote from: Rossfan on May 16, 2019, 04:43:20 PM
For the benefit of those who obviously don't read newspapers or who have no notions of what is happening in GAA world..
The current proposals for a 2nd tier include all Counties playing in their Provincial Championships.
These proposals* (2) are being considered by the 16 D3 and D4 Counties with a view to a motion for the Special Congress in Autumn.
We may all have our own ideas on any new type of graded Championships or we may want to leave things as they are but the above is what's happening in the real World.

Someone mentioned the GPA - it seems most of  their members from the weaker Counties favour a 2nd Tier competition as they'd like to play in a Summer Competition they could entertain a hope of winning.

* 1- All D3 and D4 teams who don't reach a Provincial Final enter the Tier 2. (D3 will include the 2 teams relegated from D2 in that tears NFL)
2 - As at present with all teams entering the Qualifiers , then D3 and D4 teams that get knocked out in Round 1 or 2 enter the Tier 2.
Thanks for the summary.

If a Division 3 or 4 team do reach a provincial semi-final (impossible, I know) in Proposal 1 does the lowest team in Division 2 then get knocked down to the second tier championship?

Rossfan

I presume you mean reach a Provincial Final?
As far as I know Tier 2 would go  ahead with 15 teams..
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

lenny

Quote from: Keyser soze on May 16, 2019, 02:37:16 PM
Quote from: lenny on May 16, 2019, 02:02:25 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on May 16, 2019, 11:24:27 AM
This debate is strikingly similar to the Brexit fiasco.

A number of strident voices whipping up support for an idea as a panacea to perceived inadequacies in the GAA with absolutely no consideration of what the long term consequences will be or even any acknowledgement that there might be negatives associated with the idea.

So we continue with the current fiasco where the strong get stronger and the weak have nothing to play for apart from the dream of getting a big draw and playing out of their skin to keep the defeat in single figures. Anyone who can't see the many negatives with the current setup isn't looking at what's happening and the disenchantment among county players and supporters outside the top 5 or 6 teams.

So you would have been happy enough with Derry playing Wexford in a Junior championship on sunday past rather than Tyrone in the Ulster championship?

Are you making the argument that tiering will help the weaker teams? I am firmly of the opinion that it will be the last nail in the coffin for weaker counties to the benefit of the stronger ones. 

NO-ONE advocating tiering has ever pointed out the possible downsides to a new system.

Yes, I'd have been very happy for Derry to be playing in a championship in which they'd a reasonable chance of progress and ultimate success. Then just like at club level if we were to win we'd move up to the next level.

twohands!!!

Division 4 teams have played 185 championship games in the 9 years from 2010 to 2018.

They have won 52 games in that time.

2 games against Division 1 opposition.
6 games against Division 2 opposition.
14 games against Division 3 opposition.
27 games against Division 4 opposition.
Plus 3 games against New York.

8 games won against top 16 teams versus 41 games won against bottom 16 teams (if you include New York it goes up to 44)

Keyser soze

Quote from: Rossfan on May 16, 2019, 04:43:20 PM
For the benefit of those who obviously don't read newspapers or who have no notions of what is happening in GAA world..
The current proposals for a 2nd tier include all Counties playing in their Provincial Championships.
These proposals* (2) are being considered by the 16 D3 and D4 Counties with a view to a motion for the Special Congress in Autumn.
We may all have our own ideas on any new type of graded Championships or we may want to leave things as they are but the above is what's happening in the real World.

Someone mentioned the GPA - it seems most of  their members from the weaker Counties favour a 2nd Tier competition as they'd like to play in a Summer Competition they could entertain a hope of winning.

* 1- All D3 and D4 teams who don't reach a Provincial Final enter the Tier 2. (D3 will include the 2 teams relegated from D2 in that tears NFL)
2 - As at present with all teams entering the Qualifiers , then D3 and D4 teams that get knocked out in Round 1 or 2 enter the Tier 2.

That'd be the North American championship then!

Esmarelda

Quote from: twohands!!! on May 16, 2019, 10:08:23 PM
Division 4 teams have played 185 championship games in the 9 years from 2010 to 2018.

They have won 52 games in that time.

2 games against Division 1 opposition.
6 games against Division 2 opposition.
14 games against Division 3 opposition.
27 games against Division 4 opposition.
Plus 3 games against New York.

8 games won against top 16 teams versus 41 games won against bottom 16 teams (if you include New York it goes up to 44)
Very interesting.
So a 7.5% win rate against Division 3 teams then?

Dinny Breen

Quote from: magpie seanie on May 16, 2019, 09:31:18 AM
It's going to happen. All the D3 and D4 counties need to get promoted or do well in their province if they want to be at the top table. For all the talk of equal promotion of a tier 2 competition - it won't happen. Maybe for the first year or two but it will fade thereafter.

Will be interesting to see how/when the poaching of players from the have nots to the haves kicks in.

This would never happen in Kildare but it's a very valid and excellent point I suspect very few have thought of. It will happen.
#newbridgeornowhere