Arrivederci negative football

[J OGorman]

What do we reckon,  the blanket defence inc 1, maybe 2 sweepers is a thing of the past?
Reading some comments from various posters from a few different counties, some are thinking that come championship time, we'll pack the defence and be grand. Cant see it myself for several reasons:

* If this was the case, surely now is the time (half way through the league programme) to fine tune tactics for the championship?? Whats the use of playing open 15 v 15 football now and then rolling out the untested championship game plan come May / June?

* Packing the defence will lead to more players picking up black cards. Less space, more collisions etc. Managers are wise to this. Open football with teams conceding big scores isnt being facilitated by counties for the love of the game. Its all about scoring more than the opposition and defending with as much discipline as possible, turning the ball over as clean as possible and forcing unforced errors without picking up any cards (ie skilful tackling as opposed to 4/5/6 men swarming a player with sheer muscle and pressure causing the turnover)

* Rolling out the old guard to shore up the defence come championship time. Cant see it. Its the year of the forward and to counter act this, teams need lightning fast mobile defenders to keep tabs on them. Older, slower defenders will be hung to dry in the wide open spaces on firm summer pitches

As one of the commentators on Cork 103 said on Sunday, "the black card is putting manners in these defenders boi"

Really looking forward to this one

[magpie seanie]

What do we reckon,  the blanket defence inc 1, maybe 2 sweepers is a thing of the past?
Reading some comments from various posters from a few different counties, some are thinking that come championship time, we'll pack the defence and be grand. Cant see it myself for several reasons:

* If this was the case, surely now is the time (half way through the league programme) to fine tune tactics for the championship?? Whats the use of playing open 15 v 15 football now and then rolling out the untested championship game plan come May / June?

* Packing the defence will lead to more players picking up black cards. Less space, more collisions etc. Managers are wise to this. Open football with teams conceding big scores isnt being facilitated by counties for the love of the game. Its all about scoring more than the opposition and defending with as much discipline as possible, turning the ball over as clean as possible and forcing unforced errors without picking up any cards (ie skilful tackling as opposed to 4/5/6 men swarming a player with sheer muscle and pressure causing the turnover)

* Rolling out the old guard to shore up the defence come championship time. Cant see it. Its the year of the forward and to counter act this, teams need lightning fast mobile defenders to keep tabs on them. Older, slower defenders will be hung to dry in the wide open spaces on firm summer pitches

As one of the commentators on Cork 103 said on Sunday, "the black card is putting manners in these defenders boi"

Really looking forward to this one

If you limit forwards to 4 steps as per the rules that would fairly put manners on them. Backs have an almost impossible task now.

[Syferus]

What do we reckon,  the blanket defence inc 1, maybe 2 sweepers is a thing of the past?
Reading some comments from various posters from a few different counties, some are thinking that come championship time, we'll pack the defence and be grand. Cant see it myself for several reasons:

* If this was the case, surely now is the time (half way through the league programme) to fine tune tactics for the championship?? Whats the use of playing open 15 v 15 football now and then rolling out the untested championship game plan come May / June?

* Packing the defence will lead to more players picking up black cards. Less space, more collisions etc. Managers are wise to this. Open football with teams conceding big scores isnt being facilitated by counties for the love of the game. Its all about scoring more than the opposition and defending with as much discipline as possible, turning the ball over as clean as possible and forcing unforced errors without picking up any cards (ie skilful tackling as opposed to 4/5/6 men swarming a player with sheer muscle and pressure causing the turnover)

* Rolling out the old guard to shore up the defence come championship time. Cant see it. Its the year of the forward and to counter act this, teams need lightning fast mobile defenders to keep tabs on them. Older, slower defenders will be hung to dry in the wide open spaces on firm summer pitches

As one of the commentators on Cork 103 said on Sunday, "the black card is putting manners in these defenders boi"

Really looking forward to this one

If you limit forwards to 4 steps as per the rules that would fairly put manners on them. Backs have an almost impossible task now.

The 4 steps rule would be fairly ridiculous if it was actually ever strictly enforced.

People want scores and scores make for better matches. The black card as a threat has parted the waves to a very real extent at the back.

[magpie seanie]

What do we reckon,  the blanket defence inc 1, maybe 2 sweepers is a thing of the past?
Reading some comments from various posters from a few different counties, some are thinking that come championship time, we'll pack the defence and be grand. Cant see it myself for several reasons:

* If this was the case, surely now is the time (half way through the league programme) to fine tune tactics for the championship?? Whats the use of playing open 15 v 15 football now and then rolling out the untested championship game plan come May / June?

* Packing the defence will lead to more players picking up black cards. Less space, more collisions etc. Managers are wise to this. Open football with teams conceding big scores isnt being facilitated by counties for the love of the game. Its all about scoring more than the opposition and defending with as much discipline as possible, turning the ball over as clean as possible and forcing unforced errors without picking up any cards (ie skilful tackling as opposed to 4/5/6 men swarming a player with sheer muscle and pressure causing the turnover)

* Rolling out the old guard to shore up the defence come championship time. Cant see it. Its the year of the forward and to counter act this, teams need lightning fast mobile defenders to keep tabs on them. Older, slower defenders will be hung to dry in the wide open spaces on firm summer pitches

As one of the commentators on Cork 103 said on Sunday, "the black card is putting manners in these defenders boi"

Really looking forward to this one

If you limit forwards to 4 steps as per the rules that would fairly put manners on them. Backs have an almost impossible task now.

The 4 steps rule would be fairly ridiculous if it was actually ever strictly enforced.

People want scores and scores make for better matches. The black card as a threat has parted the waves to a very real extent at the back.

So you're only in favour of enforcing rules that help create scores?

Do you actually think before you type?

[Hardy]

What do we reckon,  the blanket defence inc 1, maybe 2 sweepers is a thing of the past?
Reading some comments from various posters from a few different counties, some are thinking that come championship time, we'll pack the defence and be grand. Cant see it myself for several reasons:

* If this was the case, surely now is the time (half way through the league programme) to fine tune tactics for the championship?? Whats the use of playing open 15 v 15 football now and then rolling out the untested championship game plan come May / June?

* Packing the defence will lead to more players picking up black cards. Less space, more collisions etc. Managers are wise to this. Open football with teams conceding big scores isnt being facilitated by counties for the love of the game. Its all about scoring more than the opposition and defending with as much discipline as possible, turning the ball over as clean as possible and forcing unforced errors without picking up any cards (ie skilful tackling as opposed to 4/5/6 men swarming a player with sheer muscle and pressure causing the turnover)

* Rolling out the old guard to shore up the defence come championship time. Cant see it. Its the year of the forward and to counter act this, teams need lightning fast mobile defenders to keep tabs on them. Older, slower defenders will be hung to dry in the wide open spaces on firm summer pitches

As one of the commentators on Cork 103 said on Sunday, "the black card is putting manners in these defenders boi"

Really looking forward to this one

If you limit forwards to 4 steps as per the rules that would fairly put manners on them. Backs have an almost impossible task now.

The 4 steps rule would be fairly ridiculous if it was actually ever strictly enforced.

People want scores and scores make for better matches. The black card as a threat has parted the waves to a very real extent at the back.

This is the kind of shite that we're up against.

[Bingo]

Serious big scores been racked up. Black card is likely a factor also probably due to the players, managers and refs testing the water and learning what you can do, get away with, etc.

It will be like everything else, tactics will evolve and one manager will put in place a system that will limit scores and the rest will follow.

In addition to the black cards, I think the fitness levels of players are really starting to impact games now. This has been building now over a years and the GAA player has changed into a very mobile type of player with a great balance of strength, power and agility. Its very hard to mark someone who doesn't stand still. The ball is moving quicker now and players are attacking on the move. A few years back, we had gone too far on weights but they have scaled that back.

While players have become more potent attacking wise as a result of this, maybe the defending skills haven't matched this. The black card rewards pace and power and came at a time when its never been as high.

[Syferus]

What do we reckon,  the blanket defence inc 1, maybe 2 sweepers is a thing of the past?
Reading some comments from various posters from a few different counties, some are thinking that come championship time, we'll pack the defence and be grand. Cant see it myself for several reasons:

* If this was the case, surely now is the time (half way through the league programme) to fine tune tactics for the championship?? Whats the use of playing open 15 v 15 football now and then rolling out the untested championship game plan come May / June?

* Packing the defence will lead to more players picking up black cards. Less space, more collisions etc. Managers are wise to this. Open football with teams conceding big scores isnt being facilitated by counties for the love of the game. Its all about scoring more than the opposition and defending with as much discipline as possible, turning the ball over as clean as possible and forcing unforced errors without picking up any cards (ie skilful tackling as opposed to 4/5/6 men swarming a player with sheer muscle and pressure causing the turnover)

* Rolling out the old guard to shore up the defence come championship time. Cant see it. Its the year of the forward and to counter act this, teams need lightning fast mobile defenders to keep tabs on them. Older, slower defenders will be hung to dry in the wide open spaces on firm summer pitches

As one of the commentators on Cork 103 said on Sunday, "the black card is putting manners in these defenders boi"

Really looking forward to this one

If you limit forwards to 4 steps as per the rules that would fairly put manners on them. Backs have an almost impossible task now.

The 4 steps rule would be fairly ridiculous if it was actually ever strictly enforced.

People want scores and scores make for better matches. The black card as a threat has parted the waves to a very real extent at the back.

So you're only in favour of enforcing rules that help create scores?

Do you actually think before you type?

Every major team sport is moving towards making it easier to score. If you want to try to be a purist go ahead but before the black card gaelic football was one of the most extreame examples of blatant cynical play in sports. Protecting attackers better and forcing defenders to defend within the rules is the correct course of action.

[AZOffaly]

I really think that the high scores are exposing that defenders can't defend anymore. They've been conditioned to swarming, the cheap foul, get organised, etc etc. The black card will make them learn again the basics of defending. Anticipation, controlled aggression, timing, tackling the ball.

However, I absolutely agree that forwards are getting away with murder in terms of ball carrying. The excuse for this was that refs were using their cop on and allowing extra steps for a lad being fouled, letting him escape the foul. That's grand in principle, but now 4 steps seems to be 6 at a minimum. So a corner back that is not fouling is now faced with an even more difficult challenge to tackle the ball, or dispossess the man if he's running like Brian O'Driscoll with the ball.

I do think these are the right calls rules wise though. Our refs were not giving yellows for the cynical stuff, and repeat yellows and reds. So the culture of the cheap, innocuous looking, foul crept in, and defenders got lazy and more cynical. (I call anyone without the ball a defender in this instance. A number 15 pulling down a defender to stop a quick break was just as common and just as lazy and cynical). If refs had been doling out yellow and red cards, as per the rules, there'd be no need for the black card I think. But the culture was so engrained on behalf of the players AND the refs at this stage that you needed the black card.

It will take a while, but defenders will adapt, and go back to the way it used to be. Hard hits and challenges, dispossess the man, blocking kicks, anticipating and tackling. Not pulling, dragging and arse boxing.

[magpie seanie]

What do we reckon,  the blanket defence inc 1, maybe 2 sweepers is a thing of the past?
Reading some comments from various posters from a few different counties, some are thinking that come championship time, we'll pack the defence and be grand. Cant see it myself for several reasons:

* If this was the case, surely now is the time (half way through the league programme) to fine tune tactics for the championship?? Whats the use of playing open 15 v 15 football now and then rolling out the untested championship game plan come May / June?

* Packing the defence will lead to more players picking up black cards. Less space, more collisions etc. Managers are wise to this. Open football with teams conceding big scores isnt being facilitated by counties for the love of the game. Its all about scoring more than the opposition and defending with as much discipline as possible, turning the ball over as clean as possible and forcing unforced errors without picking up any cards (ie skilful tackling as opposed to 4/5/6 men swarming a player with sheer muscle and pressure causing the turnover)

* Rolling out the old guard to shore up the defence come championship time. Cant see it. Its the year of the forward and to counter act this, teams need lightning fast mobile defenders to keep tabs on them. Older, slower defenders will be hung to dry in the wide open spaces on firm summer pitches

As one of the commentators on Cork 103 said on Sunday, "the black card is putting manners in these defenders boi"

Really looking forward to this one

If you limit forwards to 4 steps as per the rules that would fairly put manners on them. Backs have an almost impossible task now.

The 4 steps rule would be fairly ridiculous if it was actually ever strictly enforced.

People want scores and scores make for better matches. The black card as a threat has parted the waves to a very real extent at the back.

This is the kind of shite that we're up against.

Yeah and we're not going to win.

[magpie seanie]

What do we reckon,  the blanket defence inc 1, maybe 2 sweepers is a thing of the past?
Reading some comments from various posters from a few different counties, some are thinking that come championship time, we'll pack the defence and be grand. Cant see it myself for several reasons:

* If this was the case, surely now is the time (half way through the league programme) to fine tune tactics for the championship?? Whats the use of playing open 15 v 15 football now and then rolling out the untested championship game plan come May / June?

* Packing the defence will lead to more players picking up black cards. Less space, more collisions etc. Managers are wise to this. Open football with teams conceding big scores isnt being facilitated by counties for the love of the game. Its all about scoring more than the opposition and defending with as much discipline as possible, turning the ball over as clean as possible and forcing unforced errors without picking up any cards (ie skilful tackling as opposed to 4/5/6 men swarming a player with sheer muscle and pressure causing the turnover)

* Rolling out the old guard to shore up the defence come championship time. Cant see it. Its the year of the forward and to counter act this, teams need lightning fast mobile defenders to keep tabs on them. Older, slower defenders will be hung to dry in the wide open spaces on firm summer pitches

As one of the commentators on Cork 103 said on Sunday, "the black card is putting manners in these defenders boi"

Really looking forward to this one

If you limit forwards to 4 steps as per the rules that would fairly put manners on them. Backs have an almost impossible task now.

The 4 steps rule would be fairly ridiculous if it was actually ever strictly enforced.

People want scores and scores make for better matches. The black card as a threat has parted the waves to a very real extent at the back.

So you're only in favour of enforcing rules that help create scores?

Do you actually think before you type?

Every major team sport is moving towards making it easier to score. If you want to try to be a purist go ahead but before the black card gaelic football was one of the most extreame examples of blatant cynical play in sports. Protecting attackers better and forcing defenders to defend within the rules is the correct course of action.

So force defenders to defend within the rules but let attackers break the rules. OK. That makes sense....

And everyone else is doing it so it must be right...

It's no wonder this country ended up in the shit and the people who casued it continuosly get voted back in.

[Rossfan]

I really think that the high scores are exposing that defenders can't defend anymore. They've been conditioned to swarming, the cheap foul, get organised, etc etc. The black card will make them learn again the basics of defending. Anticipation, controlled aggression, timing, tackling the ball.

However, I absolutely agree that forwards are getting away with murder in terms of ball carrying. The excuse for this was that refs were using their cop on and allowing extra steps for a lad being fouled, letting him escape the foul. That's grand in principle, but now 4 steps seems to be 6 at a minimum. So a corner back that is not fouling is now faced with an even more difficult challenge to tackle the ball, or dispossess the man if he's running like Brian O'Driscoll with the ball.

I do think these are the right calls rules wise though. Our refs were not giving yellows for the cynical stuff, and repeat yellows and reds. So the culture of the cheap, innocuous looking, foul crept in, and defenders got lazy and more cynical. (I call anyone without the ball a defender in this instance. A number 15 pulling down a defender to stop a quick break was just as common and just as lazy and cynical). If refs had been doling out yellow and red cards, as per the rules, there'd be no need for the black card I think. But the culture was so engrained on behalf of the players AND the refs at this stage that you needed the black card.

It will take a while, but defenders will adapt, and go back to the way it used to be. Hard hits and challenges, dispossess the man, blocking kicks, anticipating and tackling. Not pulling, dragging and arse boxing.

Excellent post AZ.
I think the new definite advantage rule is giving more scores too as refs aren't stopping the game the second they see the "little" fouls.
However unlike sh1teferus I don't see what's so great about a silly game with scores of 3-14 to 1-19 and no one defending.
Best way to deal with that eejit is to use the ignore function and you won't see his assinine ramblings.
As for Roscommon we've just stopped defending or tracking back to mark our men or any of that sort of thing.
We got one black card Sunday which wasn't really one and then when Niall Carty did a "Kavanagh" he only got a yellow.
Refs.....
JUST IMPLEMENT THE 4 STEPS RULE AS WRITTEN and defenders will get a chance to practice the legimite tackle and bring a semblance of reality back into scorelines.

[brokencrossbar1]

From speaking to a few refs they have been told to have a soft approach to implementation of the rules.  Managers and players though are still conscious of it and they have adapted their styles accordingly.  As the refs get a bit harder and there are more black cards then the tactics will adapt again.  What I have noticed in games I have been involved in already this season is, as has been mentioned above, that the level of fitness even at club level is through the roof already. The players are individualy very well conditioned but as a unit they all seem to be very fit.   This has meant that the speed of the play has increased and more goals are being scored,  particularly due to half backs/midfielders breaking forward. Scores are coming from every angle and it isn't unusual to see a corner back popping up with a few points a game.   

As the stakes get higher through the season there will be an element of negativity developing in the game but I think that the managers are realising that it is better to outscore than anything else.

[joemamas]

watching Dublin V Kildare on Saturday, the entire steps issue did come into my head, especially Jack Mccaffrey, it appeared that he was taking a lot more steps than five, more like eight or ten, Paul Earley in the commentary box was so enamored by his speed that he was oblivious to the steps issue. Mccaffrey was not the only one, but he was pretty obvious.

Going forward, under the current rules, it will be difficult to train/recruit kids to become backs.

[Keyser soze]

Serious big scores been racked up. Black card is likely a factor also probably due to the players, managers and refs testing the water and learning what you can do, get away with, etc.

It will be like everything else, tactics will evolve and one manager will put in place a system that will limit scores and the rest will follow.

In addition to the black cards, I think the fitness levels of players are really starting to impact games now. This has been building now over a years and the GAA player has changed into a very mobile type of player with a great balance of strength, power and agility. Its very hard to mark someone who doesn't stand still. The ball is moving quicker now and players are attacking on the move. A few years back, we had gone too far on weights but they have scaled that back.

While players have become more potent attacking wise as a result of this, maybe the defending skills haven't matched this. The black card rewards pace and power and came at a time when its never been as high.

Bingo you're making some serious claims here about evolutions of skills and fitness. Do you have any evidence that any of these things have measurably changed?

[Bingo]

Serious big scores been racked up. Black card is likely a factor also probably due to the players, managers and refs testing the water and learning what you can do, get away with, etc.

It will be like everything else, tactics will evolve and one manager will put in place a system that will limit scores and the rest will follow.

In addition to the black cards, I think the fitness levels of players are really starting to impact games now. This has been building now over a years and the GAA player has changed into a very mobile type of player with a great balance of strength, power and agility. Its very hard to mark someone who doesn't stand still. The ball is moving quicker now and players are attacking on the move. A few years back, we had gone too far on weights but they have scaled that back.

While players have become more potent attacking wise as a result of this, maybe the defending skills haven't matched this. The black card rewards pace and power and came at a time when its never been as high.

Bingo you're making some serious claims here about evolutions of skills and fitness. Do you have any evidence that any of these things have measurably changed?

Firstly, I never mentioned skills.

Fitness wise - sometimes you don't need facts/stats/reports, you can watch games over time and its obvious that the pace and intensity of games have moved on.
In the past the lines thrown out about the league was "we're working on our fitness" or "fitness levels aren't what they were". This isn't the case anymore, players are in very good physical condition.
This comes from two things - the approach is more scientific (like it or love  it) and secondly - there really isn't an off season now, players are training 12 months of the year - collectively or individually; county, club and college. We don't have a period when players are doing nothing for 3/4 months but drinking and eating.

Except club players - thats what the summer is for.