Alliance showing their true colours now

[Eamonnca1]

Many Catholic schools have crucifixes, images of Our Lady, grottoes etc. I much prefer my kids being brought up in these environments and being taught gaelic football and Irish and Latin etc (because I'm a bigot you say). The alternatives are:
- a school plastered with NI Flags or Union Jacks and being taught only soccer
- a completely anaemic school where culture is frowned upon

Are the anti-clergy brigade on this board all in favour of shutting down Catholic schools?

I'm in favour of the state system being religiously neutral and the catholic system being funded by the church alone.

What's that I hear you say?  The church can't afford it?  Hmmm...

[Eamonnca1]

Integrated education is peddled as the panacea to end sectarianism. Can't see it,when you have the Orange Order ( whose raison d'être is promoting sectarianism) continuing to exert substantial influence,and shamefully indulged not least by the Dublin government.

That old straw man again?  What would segregationists  do without the word "panacea"? Seems to be their favourite cliché. They remind me of the gun nuts in the US saying "gun control measures are not going to completely eliminate all gun crime, therefore we should not have gun control measures."

Tell me this Eamonn, if tribe A goes to tribe A schools and tribe B goes to tribe B schools, would an argument for a school C, for both tribes, not have some merit in a sectarian climate?

(I accept school C would have to be agreeable to both sides)

Of course it would.  It blows my mind that people can't see this.

[T Fearon]

MichaelG,the Orange Order having no influence in state schools,in a round about way is my point.The education system currently does not foster sectarianism.Unfortunately the Orange Order exerts considerable malign influence outside of school,and junior members are indoctrinated at primary school age.

My nieces and nephew went to intergrated school at primary level,and to a state sector grammar school.They turned out both non sectarian (as they would have done whatever school they attended), totally devoid of any religious leaning and with no exposure whatsoever to any form of Irish culture.

[Eamonnca1]

MichaelG,the Orange Order having no influence in state schools,in a round about way is my point.The education system currently does not foster sectarianism.Unfortunately the Orange Order exerts considerable malign influence outside of school,and junior members are indoctrinated at primary school age.

My nieces and nephew went to intergrated school at primary level,and to a state sector grammar school.They turned out both non sectarian (as they would have done whatever school they attended), totally devoid of any religious leaning and with no exposure whatsoever to any form of Irish culture.

Kinda contradicts just about everything else you've said on this topic, no?

[michaelg]

MichaelG,the Orange Order having no influence in state schools,in a round about way is my point.The education system currently does not foster sectarianism.Unfortunately the Orange Order exerts considerable malign influence outside of school,and junior members are indoctrinated at primary school age.

My nieces and nephew went to intergrated school at primary level,and to a state sector grammar school.They turned out both non sectarian (as they would have done whatever school they attended), totally devoid of any religious leaning and with no exposure whatsoever to any form of Irish culture.

Surely if the OO has a malign influence, indoctrinating junior members outside of school, then said junior members would be better off at an integrated school?
As for your second paragraph, not sure what point it is you are trying to make.

[Ulick]

Many Catholic schools have crucifixes, images of Our Lady, grottoes etc. I much prefer my kids being brought up in these environments and being taught gaelic football and Irish and Latin etc (because I'm a bigot you say). The alternatives are:
- a school plastered with NI Flags or Union Jacks and being taught only soccer
- a completely anaemic school where culture is frowned upon

Are the anti-clergy brigade on this board all in favour of shutting down Catholic schools?

I'm in favour of the state system being religiously neutral and the catholic system being funded by the church alone.

What's that I hear you say?  The church can't afford it?  Hmmm...

So tax paying Catholic parents would have to pay twice in order to send their children to a school that reflects their ethos? Oh sorry I get it, the Church could sell St Peter's to fund it. But then all those tax paying Fenians are still paying to educate other peoples children and not their own. Tithes went out hundreds of years ago over here, maybe the Yanks are still catching up. Also , what about Irish medium schools - maybe if we ask nicely he could sell the Pope mobile as well to pay for those?

[armaghniac]

with no exposure whatsoever to any form of Irish culture.

Exactly. Leaving religion out of it, the State school sector in NI sees its role as promoting colonialism.

No. That's one of the few arguments in their favour.

And their fans see this as the objective of such schools.

[michaelg]

with no exposure whatsoever to any form of Irish culture.

Exactly. Leaving religion out of it, the State school sector in NI sees its role as promoting colonialism.

No. That's one of the few arguments in their favour.

And their fans see this as the objective of such schools.

How precisely does it do this?  Incidentally, did you attend a school in the state sector?

[cadence]

It might give rise to a "feeling", but what is the point in having integrated education, when the Orange Order indoctrinates kids from an early age? Has the status quo in education prevented both sides from interacting (reasonably well) at third level education, in the work place, and residentially (the middle classes)?

Integrated education is a red herring thrown in by unionist parties as a game of oneupmanship against "the other side". The real contributory factors towards community division and sectarianism, eg the Orange Order, paramilitary control of ghettoes on both sides etc, is neither addressed nor challenged.

i have to say that it's possible that indoctrination and a wee bit of internalisation might be going on the catholic side too. i say a wee bit because we all know it's possible for people to have the analytical skills to question and reject the validity of what they're being taught and what they're experiencing culturally. many people become very positively different from what's expected of them. you'd have to wonder why anyone would not want to, or be able to even, see the benefits of this and would want to reject it out of hand before it's even been tried.

and to be fair to you, in your second paragraph you claim that these facts prove that integrated education couldn't work is ridiculous. no one knows how integrated education would pan out in the long term, but might it not be worth supporting as something that could improve and build healthier relationships? policy should be set by evidence. a study needs to be undertaken on what the people want and a policy worked out to provide what's needed. + even if the finding in favour were not overwhelming, if there was enough to fill a school it would be a start and something to build on.

coming out with the same old argument for why things are the way they are for us, without reflecting and trying to be better than we were, is one trick pony territory.

[Orior]

It might give rise to a "feeling", but what is the point in having integrated education, when the Orange Order indoctrinates kids from an early age? Has the status quo in education prevented both sides from interacting (reasonably well) at third level education, in the work place, and residentially (the middle classes)?

Integrated education is a red herring thrown in by unionist parties as a game of oneupmanship against "the other side". The real contributory factors towards community division and sectarianism, eg the Orange Order, paramilitary control of ghettoes on both sides etc, is neither addressed nor challenged.

Here is the news. By the time you've reached your late teens and you finally start going to educational institutions where you meet people of the other side, it's too late. Your formative years are over. Your views are already more or less set in stone.  And in any case not everyone goes on to further and higher education. If a fenian leaves school at 16 then there's every chance that his first encounter with a prod will be when he starts work, but it's just as possible he'll go through his entire life without ever meeting one.

Blaming the OO for all of society's divisions is a bit of a stretch.

Denial is not just a river in Egypt you know.

Exsqeeze me? Baking powder?

They are one of the two root causes. Paisley being the other.

[Maguire01]

I'm with Alliance on the education point. There should be one sector for all children. If its good enough for Further and Higher education, then why not at primary and secondary level? Parents can do the religion at home, or bring their children to mass - if they want specialist schools, they and the church can pay for them.

[Milltown Row2]

It might give rise to a "feeling", but what is the point in having integrated education, when the Orange Order indoctrinates kids from an early age? Has the status quo in education prevented both sides from interacting (reasonably well) at third level education, in the work place, and residentially (the middle classes)?

Integrated education is a red herring thrown in by unionist parties as a game of oneupmanship against "the other side". The real contributory factors towards community division and sectarianism, eg the Orange Order, paramilitary control of ghettoes on both sides etc, is neither addressed nor challenged.

Here is the news. By the time you've reached your late teens and you finally start going to educational institutions where you meet people of the other side, it's too late. Your formative years are over. Your views are already more or less set in stone.  And in any case not everyone goes on to further and higher education. If a fenian leaves school at 16 then there's every chance that his first encounter with a prod will be when he starts work, but it's just as possible he'll go through his entire life without ever meeting one.

Blaming the OO for all of society's divisions is a bit of a stretch.

Denial is not just a river in Egypt you know.

Exsqeeze me? Baking powder?

They are one of the two root causes. Paisley being the other.

You say that Orange Order indoctrinates kids, I also say the Catholic church (like all religions) indoctrinates kids. There are a serious amount of prod kids whose families are not in the OO. My kids go to non denominational schools they aren't being taught to be prods or taigs, If they want to play Gaelic games they will at the club, if they don't (like a lot of kids) then I can't make them. Would I like the school to encourage Gaelic games? Yes big time, same way I would have liked the chance to have played soccer at my old school, buy hey no soccer allowed as we were a catholic school who frowned on those types of sports, thus denying us the chance to try other things at school level.

I think there is is a lot of money spent in schools to ensure there is both a catholic school and a Prod school in close proximity. Money wasted in my opinion

[armaghniac]

If they want to play Gaelic games they will at the club,

A school that has no Gaelic games, no Irish language etc is not integrated in any meaningful sense of the word (and of course real integrated schools have these things).  It is no use talking about schools that did not play soccer, everyone at that school had exposure to soccer and played in the school yard. It is no good talking about rugby schools, if Rockwell College does not have gaelic games it does not mean that its pupils do not know about them.

[Rossfan]

  If schools are going to get taxpayer funding, they should be secular.
If churches want to ram their superstitious propaganda .....
Very hard to shift people's mindsets ...

Do people who have Religious beliefs not have to pay tax?
Your next sentence lets us know what mast your colours are nailed to ..
And your mindset is pretty well set against people who have religious beliefs ( or superstitious propoganda as you insultingly refer to the beliefs of billions of people across the world)....

[Maguire01]

  If schools are going to get taxpayer funding, they should be secular.
If churches want to ram their superstitious propaganda .....
Very hard to shift people's mindsets ...

Do people who have Religious beliefs not have to pay tax?

They do. And for their taxes, their children can access the education system, just like the rest. My point would be that if they demand a separate sector to accommodate their 'religious ethos', they can pay more.