Ulster Club IFC/JFC 2023

[general_lee]

I like the 1a & 1b thing for senior league in Armagh. it's clear as day 1a is where it's at, 1b is a half way house for teams heading to intermediate or intermediate teams trying to genuinely bridge the gap to Senior. Clans were a bit of an outlier this year in 1b and they really need to get out of it. That said I don't think Clans are the 2nd best team in Armagh, still behind Clann Eireann and Madden imo, but a team heading up the rankings.

Absolutely, for all intents and purposes 1B is Division 2 football. If we revert to separation between league and championship we devalue the league while also making it more difficult for clubs to compete at a higher level.

[ranch]

I like the 1a & 1b thing for senior league in Armagh. it's clear as day 1a is where it's at, 1b is a half way house for teams heading to intermediate or intermediate teams trying to genuinely bridge the gap to Senior. Clans were a bit of an outlier this year in 1b and they really need to get out of it. That said I don't think Clans are the 2nd best team in Armagh, still behind Clann Eireann and Madden imo, but a team heading up the rankings.

Absolutely, for all intents and purposes 1B is Division 2 football. If we revert to separation between league and championship we devalue the league while also making it more difficult for clubs to compete at a higher level.

I see the points you're making about competing at a higher level. I'm firmly of the view that move up in championship grade then you should have to win that championship. The same applies to relegation from championships and play offs (unlike the old days in Armagh where clubs would just request to be regraded). It seems we could debate this all day and never agree - how about some ways the current structure could be improved if it's going to remain in place?

1) scrap the current seeding system
For the group stage draw - seed the top 4 teams in 1a so they're in separate groups, and put the other 12 clubs in the other pot - make the group stages that bit more interesting.
2) top 2 qualify for the last 8-the play off round should be scrapped. I understand that they have it there to avoid dead rubbers in the final games, but let's bring some jeopardy into the early games, it was a tough watch at times this year.
3) play games at neutral venues throughout the championship, have double headers from the start and get some interest going early on.
4)top 2 in the league should play a league final- no real reason why, just to give us a big game to get interested in pre championship (this would apply across all divisions).

[smort]

Just start the season a bit later and let county players play more football with their clubs

[Dreadnought]

Just start the season a bit later and let county players play more football with their clubs

What do the club players do for most of the year then? Are we really trying to cram club leagues and Championships from late July onwards?

[armaghniac]

Just start the season a bit later and let county players play more football with their clubs

What do the club players do for most of the year then? Are we really trying to cram club leagues and Championships from late July onwards?

The idea that club players should only play as much as county players are available is madness. There must be some form of competition not involving county players

[intheknowhow]

Just start the season a bit later and let county players play more football with their clubs

What do the club players do for most of the year then? Are we really trying to cram club leagues and Championships from late July onwards?

The idea that club players should only play as much as county players are available is madness. There must be some form of competition not involving county players

Hence why the split season was created...

[twohands!!!]

Just start the season a bit later and let county players play more football with their clubs

What do the club players do for most of the year then? Are we really trying to cram club leagues and Championships from late July onwards?

The idea that club players should only play as much as county players are available is madness. There must be some form of competition not involving county players

I'd imagine it's the case that in 80% plus of all counties there is no link between league and championship, and county league can be run-off without the county players. If county players do become available (say lads returning from injury/lads outside the gameday 26 in need of some game time), it's no big deal if they do take part in a league game or two because the league position doesn't affect championship in any way.

I really can't understand from a scheduling/practicality point of view given the split-season is in place why any county would retain the link between league and championship.

[general_lee]

I like the 1a & 1b thing for senior league in Armagh. it's clear as day 1a is where it's at, 1b is a half way house for teams heading to intermediate or intermediate teams trying to genuinely bridge the gap to Senior. Clans were a bit of an outlier this year in 1b and they really need to get out of it. That said I don't think Clans are the 2nd best team in Armagh, still behind Clann Eireann and Madden imo, but a team heading up the rankings.

Absolutely, for all intents and purposes 1B is Division 2 football. If we revert to separation between league and championship we devalue the league while also making it more difficult for clubs to compete at a higher level.

I see the points you're making about competing at a higher level. I'm firmly of the view that move up in championship grade then you should have to win that championship. The same applies to relegation from championships and play offs (unlike the old days in Armagh where clubs would just request to be regraded). It seems we could debate this all day and never agree - how about some ways the current structure could be improved if it's going to remain in place?

1) scrap the current seeding system
For the group stage draw - seed the top 4 teams in 1a so they're in separate groups, and put the other 12 clubs in the other pot - make the group stages that bit more interesting.

I could live with that. Though ideally I'd prefer a return to straight knock out. Last couples of years had a real championship buzz whereas the groups are a bit dragged out with no bite.

2) top 2 qualify for the last 8-the play off round should be scrapped. I understand that they have it there to avoid dead rubbers in the final games, but let's bring some jeopardy into the early games, it was a tough watch at times this year.

I disagree, with dead rubbers you're going to have clubs with nothing to play for playing teams that do and it'll be pure luck who gets to play the wooden spoon in the final game and rack up the scoring difference.

3) play games at neutral venues throughout the championship, have double headers from the start and get some interest going early on.

I'm all for double headers, even triple headers (say 3 Lurgan teams were playing)

4)top 2 in the league should play a league final- no real reason why, just to give us a big game to get interested in pre championship (this would apply across all divisions).

Nope, this devalues the league. You finish top at the end of the season you're the league champions. 

[Captain Obvious]

Sunday 10th Dec 2023
Intermediate Final
1pm
Ballyhaise v St Patrick's Cullyhanna in Castleblayney

is it not the athletic grounds?

No. Castleblayney as stated.

[tonto1888]

Sunday 10th Dec 2023
Intermediate Final
1pm
Ballyhaise v St Patrick's Cullyhanna in Castleblayney

is it not the athletic grounds?

No. Castleblayney as stated.

Cheers. I misread the tweet. Senior final at the AG

[Armagh18]

I like our system in Armagh, think the leagues are competitive for the most part although lower senior clubs are probably only really intermediate standard and lower intermediate clubs are more like junior standard.

Only gripe i have is those daft group games in the championship. Straight knock out the only way.

[smort]

You can't go straight knockout if the league doesn't really mine anything.

Teams training all year for 1 game of any consequence

[Armagh18]

League is taken seriously. Championship is far better when theres jeopardy rather than another mini league. Anyway just my opinion anyway. 

[ranch]

League is taken seriously. Championship is far better when theres jeopardy rather than another mini league. Anyway just my opinion anyway. 

I'd question how seriously league is taken. After a few games it's pretty clear who is in with a chance of winning/promotion and who is likely to get relegated. After that it's no different to any other league, linked or unlinked. Only playing 14 games also diminishes the league in my opinion.

1)Back to 4 divisions of 11/12 teams playing each other twice, top team goes up and 2nd-5th enter play offs to keep it interesting towards the end. Bottom 2 go down. If that's too many fixtures then 5 divisions of 9/10 teams could be used instead (and maybe scrap the play off idea).

2)Straight knock out championship unlinked to league. Relegation play offs in championship.

3) introduce a junior B championship for the bottom 8 clubs.

4) I'd continue to allow 2nds teams to play in the league system but they would have to play in the reserve championship.

That would leave roughly 42 teams in the championship structure  (minus Cross II, Killeavy II, Clann Eireann II) - 12 senior, 12 intermediate, 10 junior, 8 junior B

[ranch]

Sunday 10th Dec 2023
Intermediate Final
1pm
Ballyhaise v St Patrick's Cullyhanna in Castleblayney

is it not the athletic grounds?

No. Castleblayney as stated.

A double header with the senior final in Newry or Omagh would make more sense surely?