The "PC Brigade" brigade

[AZOffaly]

OK, but the Original Stars and Bars, the one with the big thick stripes, and the Bonnie Blue Flag, are also flags of the Confederacy. They would 'stand for' the same thing. But they would not be deemed racist, I would guess, if they were flown. Unless they too were appropriated by the Klan and flown at ignorant rallies like last week.

[J70]

But the Confederate States didn't just "include" slavery. Slavery was the reason for their formation and its continued legality was what they were trying to defend. All the hand wringing over the official Stars and Bars and the Battle flag is irrelevant, as you say, AZ. The defenders of the Confederate "cause" and white supremacy have adopted the Battle flag. It IS the flag of the Confederacy and southern racism for all intents and purposes. Any idiot from Cork using that flag needs to wake up. This isn't black people taking ownership of the n-word. It's the brainless, heedless, offensive use of a very high profile symbol of someone else's racist policies and society. Would anyone condone Sligo people using the ISIS flag? Or, as easytiger said, GAA followers using the Nazi swastika flag?

[J70]

OK, but the Original Stars and Bars, the one with the big thick stripes, and the Bonnie Blue Flag, are also flags of the Confederacy. They would 'stand for' the same thing. But they would not be deemed racist, I would guess, if they were flown. Unless they too were appropriated by the Klan and flown at ignorant rallies like last week.

Surely you're talking about profile here?

If they were to suddenly wheel out the Stars and Bars, which existed for no other reason than the Confederacy, there would be a very swift backlash once it's origin became widely known.

Don't know anything about the Bonnie Blue flag.

[AZOffaly]

Absolutely, it's profile. But do you think people are now cracking down on the Rebel flag because of the US Civil War, and the reasons behind it, or because the KKK now have adopted it?

I think it's the latter, and I think if the Cork lads rolled out the original Stars and Bars, even if people were aware of the origin, I don't think there'd be as big a storm about it unless some group like the Pillowcase Heads took it.

[J70]

Absolutely, it's profile. But do you think people are now cracking down on the Rebel flag because of the US Civil War, and the reasons behind it, or because the KKK now have adopted it?

I think it's the latter, and I think if the Cork lads rolled out the original Stars and Bars, even if people were aware of the origin, I don't think there'd be as big a storm about it unless some group like the Pillowcase Heads took it.

Hard to know. I think in this day and age, with social media and the availability of information on the internet, the backlash against the Stars and Bars would come very quickly, especially if they are being discouraged from using the battle flag.

As to your first point, I don't see much of a disconnect between the Civil War and the KKK, but that may not reflect wider perceptions, especially in Ireland.

[Minder]

Wasn't there something a few months ago that the London Underground announcements would no longer say "good morning ladies & gentlemen" and would change it to something "gender neutral".

Now that is crazy.

Some crackpot pressure group actually lobbied for it

[Lar Naparka]

I was having an argument with someone about this at the weekend.

1 - Is forcing people to say 'Happy Holidays' rather than 'Happy Christmas' PC gone mad, or is it correct?
2 - Does that actually happen?

Someone was going on about this PC gone mad stuff, and he used this as a reference. I know some American's do that, but to be honest I think that's to reflect the Jewish Hannukah rather than anything else, and I don't think they are 'forced' to do it. In Ireland, I have never noticed anyone saying, or proposing we say, 'Happy Holidays'.

IS this PC gone mad, or  is it paranoia?

Well, it's both since basically they are the same. There are those who feel upset if anyone criticises the Traveller community in any way.

Some years ago a Fine Gael senator, Anne Devlin, produced a report that was highly critical of certain aspects of Traveller culture. That was 10+ years ago and I can't recall the reason for her conducting this report and I was waiting for the politically correct mouth pieces to have a field day.
Instead, it was comical to see the likes of Kevin Myers and other self-important journalists and their fellow travellers making tits of themselves as they were caught like a dog with one pee and two lamposts.

Y' see, Anne stated in unequivocal terms that women in Traveller circles are treated as second class by the males. No parity of esteem there. So the PC brigade were in a fix. There were two proverbial sacred cows there and both couldn't be milked at the same time.
Last year there was outrage for the PC faction when the French government banned the wearing of burkhas on public beaches. (I think I got that right.)Few if any of the loolas realised that the wearing of burkhas and veils and that sort of craic was because the women in question were regarded as sex chattels and nothing more. They were and are treated in much the same way as the Traveller women mentioned by Anne Devlin.
"Happy Holidays" gives me a pain in the butt. From what my lawyer nephew tells me its used because its not connected in any way to the religious beliefs of any sept or church.
It's quite safe to say that the langers and their Confederate regalia know about as much about Robert E. Lee as they do about Henry VIII; Beauregard Nelson or Horatio Nelson. "Who gives a phuck, boy?" is the most likely answer to any query on the subject from any Leesider..

Just using the latter to highlight a point: If the people of Cork felt sympathy for the white supremacists in Virginia or flew their Stars and Bars as an act of solidarity for the KKK's cause, it would be a different matter entirely.
I tend not to go around rising rows that I have no hope of winning.

I'd take issue with your points above. Firstly, ignorance is no defence. Some symbols cannot be separated from their meaning - for instance, there is red and white in the Nazi swastika - but none of them are used on GAA terraces. So, whilst we can ignorantly look at confederate flags and wax nostalgic about watching "the Dukes of Hazzard", it doesn't change the fact that they represent a huge and potent evil - slavery.

Secondly, even if we were to accept ignorance as an excuse back in the day, it is inconceivable now for anyone attempting to fly that flag in this country without being aware of the overtones, whether they agree that it represents it or not. And if they had any empathy they wouldn't fly it because of the distress or discomfort it could cause to people of colour, whether American, African or from other backgrounds.

That's just manners, which is all PC is - manners and concern for other people.

The salient point I was trying to make is in my last sentence ie "I tend not to go around rising rows that I have no hope of winning." I don't support the white supremacists in any way but am I entitled to force someone else to do as say as I do?
Okay, ignorance is no defence all right but defence of what?
Your definition of what's indefensible may not tally with that of someone else who looks at things from a different perspective.
I sincerely wish the Corkonians would put their confederate flags and general regalia away and find another way of expressing their feelings but I certainly can't or wouldn't insist that I am right and they are wrong so they should do as I say. Political correctness taken too excess is a form of intolerance and illiberalism that in its own way is just as insidioius as the antics of the white is right brigade in Charlottesville.

[whitey]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIpkdusnIkE

Imagine trying to have a reasonable conversation with a wagon like this

[The Iceman]

It's funny how the PC brigade label themselves as progressive and in turn label people who don't agree with them as backward...

Am I backward because I call a girl sweetheart or love when I great her? Ashley Judd and the PC brigade say so.
Am I backward if I use the term boy or girl or he or she instead of a more gender neutral prefix such as "Ze" - The PC brigade would say so
Am I backward when I get upset that my child has been invited to a "spring sphere hunt" and that people can't call it Easter Eggs..... the school system here would say so.

It's all going too far. We are losing who we are as people

[AZOffaly]

Are you pulling the piss? A spring sphere hunt?

[The Iceman]

Are you pulling the piss? A spring sphere hunt?

Nope - fact. Up in Seattle area. Apparently they were renamed back in 2011 in the school district. Seattle and San Fran are the most progressive thinkers in America. The rest of us are backward if we don't agree with all of their musings...

[Asal Mor]

That's just manners, which is all PC is - manners and concern for other people.

A lot of people take PC stances in online debates just to win the argument and take the moral high ground, not because they give a toss about the people being discriminated against. I know plenty of selfish pr!cks who are politically correct in every way, just as I know lads who are very un-PC and inappropriate but are good hearted and would try to help others where they can.

[Main Street]

Are you pulling the piss? A spring sphere hunt?

Nope - fact. Up in Seattle area. Apparently they were renamed back in 2011 in the school district. Seattle and San Fran are the most progressive thinkers in America. The rest of us are backward if we don't agree with all of their musings...

Fox News angst.
The world is going to pot because of welfare fraud, food stamps,  immigrants, mexicans, muslims, the evil "pc brigade" are taking easter away from "us".
The PC brigade are out to get you, according to Fox news.

[Esmarelda]

Are you pulling the piss? A spring sphere hunt?

Nope - fact. Up in Seattle area. Apparently they were renamed back in 2011 in the school district. Seattle and San Fran are the most progressive thinkers in America. The rest of us are backward if we don't agree with all of their musings...

Are they definitely spherical though, while we're being correct, politically or otherwise?

[J70]

I was having an argument with someone about this at the weekend.

1 - Is forcing people to say 'Happy Holidays' rather than 'Happy Christmas' PC gone mad, or is it correct?
2 - Does that actually happen?

Someone was going on about this PC gone mad stuff, and he used this as a reference. I know some American's do that, but to be honest I think that's to reflect the Jewish Hannukah rather than anything else, and I don't think they are 'forced' to do it. In Ireland, I have never noticed anyone saying, or proposing we say, 'Happy Holidays'.

IS this PC gone mad, or  is it paranoia?

Well, it's both since basically they are the same. There are those who feel upset if anyone criticises the Traveller community in any way.

Some years ago a Fine Gael senator, Anne Devlin, produced a report that was highly critical of certain aspects of Traveller culture. That was 10+ years ago and I can't recall the reason for her conducting this report and I was waiting for the politically correct mouth pieces to have a field day.
Instead, it was comical to see the likes of Kevin Myers and other self-important journalists and their fellow travellers making tits of themselves as they were caught like a dog with one pee and two lamposts.

Y' see, Anne stated in unequivocal terms that women in Traveller circles are treated as second class by the males. No parity of esteem there. So the PC brigade were in a fix. There were two proverbial sacred cows there and both couldn't be milked at the same time.
Last year there was outrage for the PC faction when the French government banned the wearing of burkhas on public beaches. (I think I got that right.)Few if any of the loolas realised that the wearing of burkhas and veils and that sort of craic was because the women in question were regarded as sex chattels and nothing more. They were and are treated in much the same way as the Traveller women mentioned by Anne Devlin.
"Happy Holidays" gives me a pain in the butt. From what my lawyer nephew tells me its used because its not connected in any way to the religious beliefs of any sept or church.
It's quite safe to say that the langers and their Confederate regalia know about as much about Robert E. Lee as they do about Henry VIII; Beauregard Nelson or Horatio Nelson. "Who gives a phuck, boy?" is the most likely answer to any query on the subject from any Leesider..

Just using the latter to highlight a point: If the people of Cork felt sympathy for the white supremacists in Virginia or flew their Stars and Bars as an act of solidarity for the KKK's cause, it would be a different matter entirely.
I tend not to go around rising rows that I have no hope of winning.

I'd take issue with your points above. Firstly, ignorance is no defence. Some symbols cannot be separated from their meaning - for instance, there is red and white in the Nazi swastika - but none of them are used on GAA terraces. So, whilst we can ignorantly look at confederate flags and wax nostalgic about watching "the Dukes of Hazzard", it doesn't change the fact that they represent a huge and potent evil - slavery.

Secondly, even if we were to accept ignorance as an excuse back in the day, it is inconceivable now for anyone attempting to fly that flag in this country without being aware of the overtones, whether they agree that it represents it or not. And if they had any empathy they wouldn't fly it because of the distress or discomfort it could cause to people of colour, whether American, African or from other backgrounds.

That's just manners, which is all PC is - manners and concern for other people.

The salient point I was trying to make is in my last sentence ie "I tend not to go around rising rows that I have no hope of winning." I don't support the white supremacists in any way but am I entitled to force someone else to do as say as I do?
Okay, ignorance is no defence all right but defence of what?
Your definition of what's indefensible may not tally with that of someone else who looks at things from a different perspective.
I sincerely wish the Corkonians would put their confederate flags and general regalia away and find another way of expressing their feelings but I certainly can't or wouldn't insist that I am right and they are wrong so they should do as I say. Political correctness taken too excess is a form of intolerance and illiberalism that in its own way is just as insidioius as the antics of the white is right brigade in Charlottesville.

How can it be PC-excess to point out to Cork people that the flag they are using is a symbol of racism and slavery? That's a simple fact. If they have an argument defending its use, I'd love to hear it and how they rationalize its use. Not everything in life is defensible. I can't imagine their "argument" having much validity.