The SDLP

Started by ardmhachaabu, April 23, 2010, 09:32:25 PM

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6th sam

#1095
Quote from: michaelg on April 11, 2021, 03:48:14 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on April 11, 2021, 12:09:26 PM
Quote from: michaelg on April 11, 2021, 11:37:31 AM
Quote from: 6th sam on April 11, 2021, 10:40:28 AM
Quote from: michaelg on April 11, 2021, 09:32:44 AM
Quote from: 6th sam on April 11, 2021, 09:18:40 AM
Quote from: michaelg on April 11, 2021, 09:02:16 AM
Quote from: 6th sam on April 11, 2021, 08:16:11 AM
Quote from: michaelg on April 11, 2021, 01:27:28 AM
Quote from: 6th sam on April 11, 2021, 12:45:45 AM
Quote from: michaelg on April 11, 2021, 12:21:43 AM
Quote from: 6th sam on April 10, 2021, 11:36:50 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on April 10, 2021, 09:25:23 PM
Serious question...
What percentage of the Unionist/Protestant population are "angry" over the Protocol?
What percentage are out rioting, attacking Police, trying to attack Nationalists etc?

Very very low percentage Ross, most unionists are reasonable . The problem for us is that they value the union and therefore many ( understandably ) back the main unionist party as the best way of maintaining the union. The real hardliners tend to be older fundamentalist types , and an easily led section of the "Protestant" working class. Most unionists favour the union for socio-economic reasons, and if there are sound socioeconomic reasons for a UI they could be persuaded. It would suit the British and Irish governments to create favourable socioeconomic for a UI. Let's be honest no Englishman with a brain wouldn't be delighted to offload Ni, to the extent that they'd be happy for GB to part finance it. A trouble free north with an economic link to England would make sense even to partitionists in ROI. For me the biggest step along the path is to sideline the DUP by giving unionists a middle ground alternative in the Alliance ( some unionists already copping on to this) . SF need to realise ( and I think they are already starting this) that if they genuinely want to become the largest party in the North they are going to have to soften further, show more remorse . Finucane epitomised this best in North belfast
A very reasonable post.  Whilst socio-economic reasons are undoutedly a major reason why unionists favour the union, it's not the be all and end all.  A sense of comfort with the status quo and fear of the unkown are the main reasons why unionsists would be reluctant to ever vote for a UI.  Coupled with the oft mentioned 'siege mentality' and a sense of giving in to SF/IRA after their 30 year terrorist campaign, it's unlikely that small 'u' unionists who vote Alliance will ever vote for a UI, as many on this board seem to think that they will.
Agree that the " comfort of the status quo " is a factor, unbelievably, as the status quo has been a disaster by most parameters: large percentage of the population having no affinity to the state, economic regression, large public sector, segregation , sectarianism, racism . The status quo is not a viable option and those unionists who are hanging onto the status quo are doing themselves no favours. If NI didn't work with a large unionist majority , it ain't go to work with a unionist minority. An all island solution with Britishness enshrined in the constitution is the most likely scenario. NI possibly might have worked if respect was shown to the minority but unfortunately for unionists that opportunity has been lost .
Again, you don't seem to get the fundamental point / essence of unionism.  The main parameter by which it has been a success, is that NI has remained as part of the United Kingdom, with the benefits that that brings.  As for your final sentence, as things stand there is likely still a significant number from the nationalist community who would vote to remain in the UK, so there is no guarantee of a UI happening in the immediate future.

Michaelg , you're an intelligent man and I always try to understand and respect your viewpoint, but how can you possibly say unionism has been a success🤦🏻‍♂️. When NI was founded 100 years ago the uk held onto, I think over 90% of the GDP of the island.
To make a simple analogy, Unionism has behaved liked a spoilt privileged child and let those UK  advantages slip away. The unionist leadership again like a spoilt child basically have tried to bully  their Irish neighbours  in the north, and have been antagonistic and demeaning  to their neighbours in the South, whilst demanding more from mummy and daddy. NI remains in the UK family but like most spoilt bullies, your current leadership still appears immature , contributing little to their family and has few friends, but unfortunately  remains deluded . Surely it's Time to grow up and get real?
Much of unionism however remains the  deluded bully  , even as their best argument for the union , " at least we are better off than that backwater down south " has now also gone. All sides need to start looking to the future and stop hanging on to a woeful status quo for fear of something worse. Don't forget that any new arrangements on the island will continue to be heftily financed by the UK who will be keen to offload NI and would welcome even closer links with ROI, especially post Brexit. Unionism is in real trouble if their best hope is to persuade those  they have bullied for years to join them in hanging on by their fingernails to a UK that they've sponged off for years, giving little back . How could intelligent people in the UK possibly want them, I mean even their best allies the Tories have shafted them . I've never shied away from admitting Irish nationalists contribution to this mess, but unionism needs to quickly develop the insight that the status quo sells their community woefully short. If intelligent unionists like yourself don't get this, and move the dinosaurs that are destroying your community,  off the stage, then you'll lose the opportunity to optimise your influence in new arrangements.
Given the general tone of your post above, coupled with other posters advice for unionists to 'move back to Britain' or to bring out the machine guns as another poster suggested, I fear you will be a long time persuading more moderate unionists to throw their hat in the riing for a UI.

Criticising the perceived  "tone" of my comment rather than the content, and coupling it with a comment  to which I am clearly diametrically opposed , is selling yourself short Michaelg, and unfortunately that's a recurrent trait amongst many unionists. If you are not prepared to engage with people like me who clearly likes unionists and wants to improve a woeful status quo , then maybe you're closer to the dinosaurs that are holding your community back , than you would admit .?
Just because my desire would be for NI to stay within the UK, that does not make me 'closer to the dinosaurs'.  You mentioned GDP etc, but these things can change over time.  Although bouyant at the moment, the economy in the ROI was in poor health for much of the last 100 years, and indeed, had to be bailed out in recent times.  You are going to have a different view, but my preference is to continue as part of the UK going forward.  As I also mentioned, it is not soley a question about economic arguments.  Other than the odd trip to watch the rugby in Dublin, or a holiday in Donegal, many unionists have little or no affinity with the ROI, be that watching gaelic games, watching RTE etc.  That might not sound like much of a big deal to someone like you who embraces those aspects of Irish cultural life, but it may be part of the wider reasons why a lot of unionists aren't so keen on a UI.

Great to get that perspective and honesty. So many unionists are not keen to expose themselves to Irishness to which they have no affinity,  but you want the Irish in the North who have been bullied by unionism for years to join with unionists in embracing  Britishness? 🤦🏻‍♂️Are you serious .
The way to defeat bullying is to call it out , and show a better way. This will involve creativity in finding the best way of doing things . The key has to be moving away from an exclusive nationalistic view of things from both sides and being led by the true majority who realise that equality, respect, opportunity , health , education , quality of life are far more important than national affiliation. Unionists have had the chance to provide that in the North and have failed, so the status quo won't work. Perhaps MR's assessment is correct , SF ironically are now a massive barrier to a UI , as victory for republicans is too difficult for unionists to countenance . Could SF do a John Hume and put the country first (as in the whole island ) . The historical desire of republicans for a 32 county socialist republic is as far away as ever. An All-Island solution however is achievable . Do SF hold out for the former, or pragmatically help to achieve the latter ?
Not sure where I said that.
Presumably By wanting us remain part of the UK as it stands , that involves embracing Britishness . Can you understand how one of the reasons NI has failed is because it has given preference to Britishness . Even after the GFA which promoted equal status of identities , the DUP have had to be dragged kicking and screaming into what they ridiculously term "concessions ".
Why would you say that if you have not had to do that to date?

Are you serious?: State schools having British ethos, union flag on public buildings , royal naming of public institutions/buildings , 1000s of Marches celebrating defeat over neighbours , paying taxes to her majesty's government, celebration of NI100. Carson statue at Stormont , to name but a few.
We have put up with this for years, and will continue to do so , it doesn't keep most of us awake at night. I respect non-antagonistic British culture, but it's hypocrisy to expect me to put up with predominance of British culture on the one hand, yet you think that unionists having no affinity with Irishness is a reasonable impediment  to progress to an All-Island(s) solution.

Milltown Row2

Why should a Protestant have any affinity to another country? To them the south is just another county on the same land mass.

I think it's you that has a problem with understanding your neighbours.

None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

general_lee

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 11, 2021, 05:31:37 PM
Why should a Protestant have any affinity to another country? To them the south is just another county on the same land mass.

I think it's you that has a problem with understanding your neighbours.
Considering many Unionists consider themselves to be Irish to some extent, why wouldn't they? Irishness relates to the island, not the state.

smelmoth

Quote from: Rossfan on April 11, 2021, 05:20:26 PM
I think its fair to say it wouldn't be first thing on many people's minds when they wake in the morning.
It's kind of a case of "that will be nice when it comes" but meanwhile let's get on with the normal things in life.
Two things the NO folk would express concern about are cost and violence.

Given events in the north and the brewing decision on BEPS it would be fair to say that the likelihood of a UI anytime soon took a serious backward step this week

Milltown Row2

Quote from: general_lee on April 11, 2021, 07:06:50 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 11, 2021, 05:31:37 PM
Why should a Protestant have any affinity to another country? To them the south is just another county on the same land mass.

I think it's you that has a problem with understanding your neighbours.
Considering many Unionists consider themselves to be Irish to some extent, why wouldn't they? Irishness relates to the island, not the state.

Considering what you say is true then it's a done deal, and this is a pointless conversation
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

imtommygunn

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 11, 2021, 05:31:37 PM
Why should a Protestant have any affinity to another country? To them the south is just another county on the same land mass.

I think it's you that has a problem with understanding your neighbours.

A woman I used to work viewed the south as a completely foreign country. To be fair to her it was what she was brought up with to her you might as well be talking about somewhere in South America or the like. It is a school of thought.

Fear Bun Na Sceilpe

Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on April 11, 2021, 09:50:14 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on April 11, 2021, 09:42:04 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 11, 2021, 05:31:37 PM
Why should a Protestant have any affinity to another country? To them the south is just another county on the same land mass.

I think it's you that has a problem with understanding your neighbours.

A woman I used to work viewed the south as a completely foreign country. To be fair to her it was what she was brought up with to her you might as well be talking about somewhere in South America or the like. It is a school of thought.
Worked with a woman like that too. She went to Rosses Point for a weekend break once and told me about it as if she was offering a hand across the barricades but also that it was a once in a lifetime excursion.

A lot of people here don't call England foreign . Always rags me. Going "foreign"  and going to  England are completely different things. If it's not Ireland it's foreign and you are a foreigner imo

Milltown Row2

Most people just say they are going to France or Spain or England.. who uses the term foreign?
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

Tubberman

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 11, 2021, 09:58:20 PM
Most people just say they are going to France or Spain or England.. who uses the term foreign?

Sure "abroad" can mean the next field over. "He's abroad in the fort field" :)
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall."

imtommygunn

I would use the term abroad but not for England Scotland Wales and certainly not for "down south".

Fear Bun Na Sceilpe

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 11, 2021, 09:58:20 PM
Most people just say they are going to France or Spain or England.. who uses the term foreign?

Honestly MR2 it's nearly all that is used in Derry when taking about going to the continent for summer hols. Maybe just a Derry thing . " You going foreign this year" "naw Donegal again the year"

Milltown Row2

Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on April 11, 2021, 10:54:49 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 11, 2021, 09:58:20 PM
Most people just say they are going to France or Spain or England.. who uses the term foreign?

Honestly MR2 it's nearly all that is used in Derry when taking about going to the continent for summer hols. Maybe just a Derry thing . " You going foreign this year" "naw Donegal again the year"

Can't remember the last time I heard it in fairness
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

Tubberman

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 11, 2021, 11:14:13 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on April 11, 2021, 10:54:49 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 11, 2021, 09:58:20 PM
Most people just say they are going to France or Spain or England.. who uses the term foreign?

Honestly MR2 it's nearly all that is used in Derry when taking about going to the continent for summer hols. Maybe just a Derry thing . " You going foreign this year" "naw Donegal again the year"

Can't remember the last time I heard it in fairness

Out of interest, why would someone from Derry go to Donegal on holidays? You wouldn't find many from Mayo going to Galway on their holidays for example!
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall."

Fear Bun Na Sceilpe

#1108
Quote from: Tubberman on April 11, 2021, 11:16:22 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 11, 2021, 11:14:13 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on April 11, 2021, 10:54:49 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 11, 2021, 09:58:20 PM
Most people just say they are going to France or Spain or England.. who uses the term foreign?

Honestly MR2 it's nearly all that is used in Derry when taking about going to the continent for summer hols. Maybe just a Derry thing . " You going foreign this year" "naw Donegal again the year"

Can't remember the last time I heard it in fairness

Out of interest, why would someone from Derry go to Donegal on holidays? You wouldn't find many from Mayo going to Galway on their holidays for example!

The beaches,the language and the relaxation , people very rarely go eastways. Where did mayo people go before foreign hols became the norm. I wasn't outside Ireland until 1999. I've never been in England or Scotland in my life other than a one hour work visit to Macclesfield.

Fear Bun Na Sceilpe

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 11, 2021, 11:14:13 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on April 11, 2021, 10:54:49 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 11, 2021, 09:58:20 PM
Most people just say they are going to France or Spain or England.. who uses the term foreign?

Honestly MR2 it's nearly all that is used in Derry when taking about going to the continent for summer hols. Maybe just a Derry thing . " You going foreign this year" "naw Donegal again the year"

Can't remember the last time I heard it in fairness

I mind going into the chippy on the ormeau road in my student days and asking for a red fish supper, nobody had a clue. We have our own wee ways up here to be fair. Not getting foreign holiday this year either by looks of it. Bd the free state chocolate again