Dublin - Where to from here?

[JMohan]

Man-to-man was the only option in hindsight

[Gnevin]

I've asked this several time this week and every time the question has been dodged.  The people who are claiming Monday was a bad day in the office and/or Dublin are not that far off please explain why you think that. Dublin have imploded in 05,06,08 and 09 . What in the 09 implosion gives hope that Dublin aren't that far off?

[Donnellys Hollow]

They beat Kildare with 14 men for the majority of the match. The same Kildare team, without a key player in Mikey Conway, could and maybe should have beaten Tyrone on Sunday.

Dublin aren't a million miles off in terms of talent and skill as some would have you believe. However there seems to be a significant mental and psychological block with certain individuals on that team when they have to step it up again after a Leinster campaign. They seem to be mentally weak when they come up against the very best in the country. Once Kerry had 1-2 on the board within the opening few minutes the game was over. Dublin's heads dropped and Kerry ran riot. Compare that to Kildare when they conceded 1-3 within the opening four minutes of the Leinster Final. The heads never dropped and they clawed their way back into the game with the likes of Earley and Doyle taking responsibilty and grabbing the game by the scruff of the neck. Tyrone players showed similar responsibility on Sunday. Many teams would have panicked when four points down at HT but their leaders stood up and dragged them back into it. With the exception of Cluxton, Cahill and Alan Brogan, there aren't many Dublin players who can show such leadership for whatever reason.

[JMohan]

Did one or two Dubs quit too early?

[Zulu]

I wouldn't put Monday down to a bad day at the office but I do think Dublin are close to the top. You asked why, well they've run both Tyrone and Kerry very close in the last 4 years and they've beaten a number of good teams in that time, - Derry, kildare, Laois, WM and Meath would all have been regarded as good teams when Dublin beat them. They also have some excellent players in the Brogans, Cahill, Henry, Keaney, Cluxton, Ryan and some potentially excellent players in Andrews, Davoren, Connolly and McConnell. Look at Kildare for example, beaten last year by Wicklow and only 12 months later they put Tyrone to the pin of their collar, so perspective can be lost amid poor performances.

From my position high up in the Hogan it was clear that many Dublin players weren't working hard enough off the ball, I don't know why that was but they didn't seem to be able to stick with the Kerry lads at all and it was a major reason why they got hammered. Like I've all ready said the big thing now is for Dublin GAA to keep its head, you can't fix a problem until to figure out what the problem is and while I understand the frustration of Dublin supporters, excessive negativity won't help either. So let the supporters vent but the management, players and CB have be more circumspect and knuckle down to fixing the actual areas they can fix.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

I think what should not be forgotten here is that it is Gilroy's first year in charge, after all. The by now habitual formality of the Leinster (the stern test from Kildare in the final notwithstanding) did neither himself nor the team any favours at all, and once again.

The fact that it was Gilroy's first term was always likely to portray the (false) promise of a new dawn, despite the fact that almost all of the players who had failed so abysmally in recent years beyond Leinster were taking centre-stage once again, and those that weren't centrally involved before were being asked to assume unnatural roles in unfamiliar positions on the pitch. Gilroy himself was probably duped by the same mirage, hence he (and his management team) got it so horrifically wrong for the Kerry game; they couldn't have accommodated the revival and rehabilitation of Kerry any better had they tried.

Everyone's entitled to mistakes and misjudgements, the question now is whether he himself as a manager is good enough to see where he and his team went so badly wrong, and he deserves that chance I'd say.

[INDIANA]

I think what should not be forgotten here is that it is Gilroy's first year in charge, after all. The by now habitual formality of the Leinster (the stern test from Kildare in the final notwithstanding) did neither himself nor the team any favours at all, and once again.

The fact that it was Gilroy's first term was always likely to portray the (false) promise of a new dawn, despite the fact that almost all of the players who had failed so abysmally in recent years beyond Leinster were taking centre-stage once again, and those that weren't centrally invovled before were being asked to assume unnatural roles in unfamiliar positions on the pitch. Gilroy himself was probably duped by the same mirage, hence he (and his management team) got it so horrifically wrong for the Kerry game; they couldn't have accommodated the revival and rehabilitation of Kerry any better had they tried.

Everyone's entitled to mistakes and misjudgements, the question now is whether he himself as a manager is good enough to see where he and his team went so badly wrong, and he deserves that chance I'd say.

But you're looking at a 3/4 rebuild job. Look you can bring a horse up to the water but you can't make them drink it. Some of those players have such mental baggage at this stage that its not repairable in some cases. Sure the Brogans- Cahill , Cluxton and a few others will survive. But a lot of them won't  and to be honest Dublin need players who don't have any mental baggage associated with the last 2 years hammerings. And thast going to take time.
So you're left with the conundrum- do the current management stay and put the buliding blocks in for the future and obviously will win nothing more than leinster championships- at the very best and in my view probably won't with Kildare's resurgence.
Or do you go with a complete new broom with a proven outside manager with a 3 year brief to build a new team that by year 3 will be able to at least compete with the best- so that by year 5 you could actually have enough to win an all-ireland.
I don't have the answer to that. But a rehashing of the current squad is what I fear next season. That to me would be a no use whatsoever. So if the current management stay- a cull must happen. As I said before - I'm not talking about getting rid of 25 players- but there will have to be 10-12 new additions.
Just look at how mentally strong Mc Geeney has Kildare. Kildare used to be weak mentally-those days are now long over and I expect them to challenge anybody in the next couple of seasons.

[lynchbhoy]

I've asked this several time this week and every time the question has been dodged.  The people who are claiming Monday was a bad day in the office and/or Dublin are not that far off please explain why you think that. Dublin have imploded in 05,06,08 and 09 . What in the 09 implosion gives hope that Dublin aren't that far off?

I'd like to think it was just a bad day at the office, as every team has one of these per season - two and usually yer knocked out of championship.
It was too much of a one sided kicking for it to be just that kerry are 17 points better than dublin.
I'd say that if the two played again next week (if last monday didnt happen) it wouldnt be 17 points in it at the end.

However, imo Gilroy didnt get a settled team in place for the last few National league games as I htink is necessary.
There are still a few passengers or players being played out of position on that side.
I dont rate some of the squad/team players but everyone does have their own ideas. (am trying hard to resist bring up my annual 'Lally should be on the team rant - and not in the defence')

Paddy andrews either in the forwards or on the bench. Cullen is also a forward, could do a job at chb - but at this level, doing a job isnt ever going to cut it.
Hound - yer having a bit of a laugh by not saying how it is regarding Fennell. The Dublin CB should have had a word with OTooles and the lad should be playing intercounty football, dublin missed him badly.
Griffin imo is a wonderful corner back, maybe even FB as a man marker, with bastic coming in off the bench if playing against some man-giant of a FF. Hubbard isnt good enough. Likewise Henry who is great going forward but isnt good enough of a natural defender imo. Maybe he coul dplay wing half back. He has the cut. Sherlock was made a scapegoat on monday, but in truth he is two years gone from being good enough for intercounty football.
I'd like to see Barry Cahill cloned and played at chb, whb and mf.
Cullen and Lally wing half forwards and Bernard B in the middle at CHF.
Alan B and Connolly FF line with Whelan or someone else (Flynn?) third midfield. B Brogan and Connolly interchangeable.

Dublin football is not that bad. I thought myself that the media were greatly overplaying Kerrys 'demise'. This was the team that could have beaten Cork the first day out.
Dublins problem is that the managers need to get their best players all out and ready , and build some consistency into the selection for starters.
Its not as bad as some think, but 17 points makes it look real bad !

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Exactly Indiana, look at how Mc Geeney has transformed Kildare. But whether it be an insider or an outsider it's all psychological, it's all about conditioning the mind before those Dublin lads can face into a QF or SF with real belief. It doesn't have to be Gilroy himself, and he will probably need a good mind-manipulator, but there's no reason for a complete clearout IMHO -- a rationalisation perhaps but not a rout.  

It has taken two years for Mc Geeney to get Kildare to where they currently are, his first year was a historical failure, but they stood by him. And that's what Gilroy needs now.

[INDIANA]

Exactly Indiana, look at how Mc Geeney has transformed Kildare. But whether it be an insider or an outsider it's all psychological, it's all about conditioning the mind before those Dublin lads can face into a QF or SF with real belief. It doesn't have to be Gilroy himself, and he will probably need a good mind-manipulator, but there's no reason for a complete clearout IMHO -- a rationalisation perhaps but not a rout.  

It has taken two years for Mc Geeney to get Kildare to where they currently are, his first year was a historical failure, but they stood by him. And that's what Gilroy needs now.

I wouldn't agree his first year was  a failure. He took kildare to the last 8 where they nearly beat a cork team that should have beaten kerry. Granted the wicklow game was a disaster but he learnt very quickly. Don't underestimate Grimley in that partnership either. I'm not sure with the mental baggage that exists there after Monday whether it can be rectified for some of our lads. The likes of the senior Mayo players  haven't really recovered from the hidings they got- and they'be brought in a new younger players to compensate. Thats why Dublin will need some new faces.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Certainly, the introduction of new younger players can only be a good thing, and that should happen regardless, but not just for the sake of it. The psychological repair to the heavily scarred senior players is another issue, but I'm sure that they are not completely beyond redemption, in the right hands.

Looking forward to seeing the remedial psychological work of J O'M on the Mayo lads in the semi (assuming that they overcome Meath), and if those lads can be redeemed...

[DandyMan]

At present, the team with the most potential in Leinster is Kildare. Well coached, a young team and the pressure game this year will bring them on. Dublin are a bit like England in the rugby: a larger set of players to pick from. Gilroy needs to get rid of the baggage - Sherlock, Bastick, McConnell, Magee and Cullen (Cullen might have a role outside of the backline). Bed in Brennan, O'Carroll, Gill (if fit - don't know much about him). Rotate the forwards - what about Vaughan?). Take the league seriously (might be difficult - given the club commitments). Next year the danger will be Kildare in Leinster: not fussed if they win the LC, and Cork in the play-off's. Where will we finish? Semi-finals = after that, who knows.

[Eastern_Pride]

At present, the team with the most potential in Leinster is Kildare. Well coached, a young team and the pressure game this year will bring them on. Dublin are a bit like England in the rugby: a larger set of players to pick from. Gilroy needs to get rid of the baggage - Sherlock, Bastick, McConnell, Magee and Cullen (Cullen might have a role outside of the backline). Bed in Brennan, O'Carroll, Gill (if fit - don't know much about him). Rotate the forwards - what about Vaughan?). Take the league seriously (might be difficult - given the club commitments). Next year the danger will be Kildare in Leinster: not fussed if they win the LC, and Cork in the play-off's. Where will we finish? Semi-finals = after that, who knows.

I think next year will ve wicklow's year to beat a big team once and for all and, depending on how dublin deal with kerrygate, dublin could be the major scalp....

[Jinxy]

Was just listening to Ciaran Whelan on Newstalk.
He was very honest and articulate about the Kerry game and Dublin football in general.
More or less said he won't be seen in a Dublin jersey again.
Ger Gilroy got loads of texts giving out that he didn't ask him about the elbow on O'Mahony!

[Shane MacGowan]

I for one am happy enough to see Ciaran Whelan retire with no All Ireland medal. The man never deserved one. He was never a tough, fair man just a tr**p. Bastick will take over this crown it looks like. He was very lucky to stay on the pitch monday. Dublin are closer to winning an hurling championship than the football.
Kerry had a combined totatl of 43 all ireland medals on the pitch Monday. I dont see how Dublin are going to compete with that going forward. It's also a poor reflection on leinster football.