Clerical abuse!

[smelmoth]

The children should not be confirmed then..The shepherd leads the flock not the other way round

Take your message to them then. Is that not you are called to do? Please arrange a recording

[maddog]

The children should not be confirmed then..The shepherd leads the flock not the other way round

We will see about that when there is no money in wool.

[longballin]

The children should not be confirmed then..The shepherd leads the flock not the other way round

aye but when the shepherd molests the sheep what do we do?

[Owen Brannigan]

The children should not be confirmed then..The shepherd leads the flock not the other way round

The children of Derry diocese were not confirmed by a bishop for two years while the diocese was led by a parish priest in the absence of a bishop when Bishop Hegarty stepped down. 

So, there is no need for a bishop to carry out the sacrament of confirmation.  Canon 882 and 883 both state that a priest can confirm any person presented for the sacrament.

Surprised that a zealot like Tony didn't know that.

[Owen Brannigan]

The children should not be confirmed then..The shepherd leads the flock not the other way round

The children of Derry diocese were not confirmed by a bishop for two years while the diocese was led by a parish priest in the absence of a bishop when Bishop Hegarty stepped down. 

So, there is no need for a bishop to carry out the sacrament of confirmation.  Canon 882 and 883 both state that a priest can confirm any person presented for the sacrament.


My point is the Church decides who administers the sacraments not the laity.
Surprised that a zealot like Tony didn't know that.

Try typing your responses in the correct area so they do not appear to corrupt the posts of others. I will fix it below.

[Owen Brannigan]

The children should not be confirmed then..The shepherd leads the flock not the other way round

The children of Derry diocese were not confirmed by a bishop for two years while the diocese was led by a parish priest in the absence of a bishop when Bishop Hegarty stepped down. 

So, there is no need for a bishop to carry out the sacrament of confirmation.  Canon 882 and 883 both state that a priest can confirm any person presented for the sacrament.

Surprised that a zealot like Tony didn't know that.

My point is the Church decides who administers the sacraments not the laity.

And yet again you fall into the same trap of defining the Catholic Church as being its clergy and hierarchy. Please take some time to familiarise yourself with the current working definition of the Catholic Church:

The Catholic Church is primarily a worldwide group of Christians, but is also an institution. Within the Catholic Church there is a leadership structure. The leaders of the Catholic Church are not like kings and queens, but rather servant-leaders following the example of Jesus.

Servant-leaders put themselves at the service of those whom they lead unlike a king who lords himself over the people. The primary servant-leaders of the Catholic Church are all men who have undergone a ritual called Holy Orders in which they are ordained or commissioned into the priesthood.

The current Pope has tried to reinforce this tenet of the Catholic Church that its clergy and bishops are 'servant leaders' and the Church is the people who form it.

Your view of a Catholic Church where the people are ruled by an elite group who always know best is the root cause of the cover up of abuse by clergy and the scandal that has brought the Catholic Church in Ireland and in most western societies to its lowest ebb in thousands of years.

You would seem to belong to an era which has thankfully passed by in this country in the minds of most people but still exists among the elite of your Church who still have not turned to follow the Church's leader as being the servants of the Church members, just like Jesus.

Bishop McAreavey would be best to adopt a sincere stance as a servant leader and follow the wishes of the parishioners as they have clearly stated before considering whether he is now the problem.

[smelmoth]

The children should not be confirmed then..The shepherd leads the flock not the other way round

The children of Derry diocese were not confirmed by a bishop for two years while the diocese was led by a parish priest in the absence of a bishop when Bishop Hegarty stepped down. 

So, there is no need for a bishop to carry out the sacrament of confirmation.  Canon 882 and 883 both state that a priest can confirm any person presented for the sacrament.


My point is the Church decides who administers the sacraments not the laity.
Surprised that a zealot like Tony didn't know that.

Try typing your responses in the correct area so they do not appear to corrupt the posts of others. I will fix it below.

His technical incompetence aside this is the only one of Tony's "arguments" that I have any sympathy with. The church is has its set of rules, bizzare as they are. Sign up or move on. Of course the church won't pursue the required clarifications and excommunications as that would expose it as a tiny fringe pursuit it what it tries to claim is a catholic country, whatever that might mean

[Owen Brannigan]

The children should not be confirmed then..The shepherd leads the flock not the other way round

The children of Derry diocese were not confirmed by a bishop for two years while the diocese was led by a parish priest in the absence of a bishop when Bishop Hegarty stepped down. 

So, there is no need for a bishop to carry out the sacrament of confirmation.  Canon 882 and 883 both state that a priest can confirm any person presented for the sacrament.


My point is the Church decides who administers the sacraments not the laity.
Surprised that a zealot like Tony didn't know that.

Try typing your responses in the correct area so they do not appear to corrupt the posts of others. I will fix it below.

His technical incompetence aside this is the only one of Tony's "arguments" that I have any sympathy with. The church is has its set of rules, bizzare as they are. Sign up or move on. Of course the church won't pursue the required clarifications and excommunications as that would expose it as a tiny fringe pursuit it what it tries to claim is a catholic country, whatever that might mean

See my response to him above.

[smelmoth]

I read it. But it's an attempt to introduce reason to Tony.

Tony wants adherence to the hierarchy and doctrine. I see where he is coming from in the latter. If he and the anti-logic brigade move with the zeitgeist for one second and admit that old doctrine was wrong then their world falls apart.

Heard a great one today that Tony will delight in.

Catholic ethos school organises school trip. It's a 2 day residential with a package of activities agreed with the host/facilitators. Long coach trip back. Late on in the process i.e. After the parents have paid for the package of activities one parent complains that the 3rd day is Sunday and no allowance for mass. The school is accused of being in breach of its ethos.

In the end the organising teacher has to extend the trip time to allow the return journey to arrive back to allow the coach to arrive back for Sunday evening mass. Parents are given the opportunity to collect the kids before or after the mass at the chapel. Pick up at the school has to be cancelled inconveniencing a number of families without access to a car. The teachers stay behind with the one child who attends the mass. They count 8 people at the mass and confirm that no other school kid attends.

Tony wants the other 57 kids and their families excommunicated and the school to ask them why they sent their kids to a catholic school. I agree with him. It's not al a carte FFS. If you was a be a catholic you gotta sign up to the batshit warts and all

[Gabriel_Hurl]

Severe intellectual deficiency on this thread.

Same could be said for most of your posts

[smelmoth]

Severe intellectual deficiency on this thread.

The Catholic Church is run by clerics in a hierarchy (with the Pope as its head as a direct descendant of the Christ appointed St Peter, elected by divine guidance) as  they are scriptural experts as a result of training.The clerics instruct and guide the ordinary church members.You cannot have laity making decisions otherwise the Catholic Church will end up with more splits than heretical Protestantism,and the key beliefs will also be watered down or done away with.

Those who follow the guidance and instructions are not sheep or illogical beings,they do so because they accept the doctrine and divine mysteries.


If any lay person disagrees they are free to leave the Church and find another Church which aligns with their beliefs.

Hard to believe many would find fault with that.

You are either a catholic or your not. And by Tony'a definition there wouldn't be 500 Catholics in any county.

[Owen Brannigan]

Severe intellectual deficiency on this thread.

The Catholic Church is run by clerics in a hierarchy (with the Pope as its head as a direct descendant of the Christ appointed St Peter, elected by divine guidance) as  they are scriptural experts as a result of training.The clerics instruct and guide the ordinary church members.You cannot have laity making decisions otherwise the Catholic Church will end up with more splits than heretical Protestantism,and the key beliefs will also be watered down or done away with.

Those who follow the guidance and instructions are not sheep or illogical beings,they do so because they accept the doctrine and divine mysteries.


If any lay person disagrees they are free to leave the Church and find another Church which aligns with their beliefs.

Again this is the pre-Vatican II view of the Catholic Church that you live in and by, Tony.  Since Vatican II the Catholic Church recognises that the Church is not its clergy, it is everyone who professes to be a Catholic.  Bishops and priests are servant leaders who do not rule over those with whom they are charged to provide spiritual direction and sacraments.  Unfortunately, too many clergy still have not adjusted to this role as servant leaders and still put Church structures and reputation above the care they must provide to the people in the Catholic Church.

As you would say any priest or bishop who disagrees with the servant leader role they are free to leave the Church and find another Church which aligns with their beliefs.

Canon Law states that any priest can confirm children as required.  Catholics can request any priest to provide them with the sacraments and are not held by Church convenience.

Bishops are just priests who have been given a specific responsibility for the spiritual wellbeing of Catholics in their dioceses and ensuring that the other priests are fulfilling their roles properly.

Time for you to move on to the Catholic Church led by Pope Frances who is battling to move his clergy on to their proper role in the footsteps of Jesus as servant leaders.

[Owen Brannigan]

Further revelations from Spotlight reporters this morning on the Nolan Show with additional reporting tomorrow morning.

Listen hear to Mandy McAuley:

https://audioboom.com/posts/6695336-bbcspotlightni-has-more-revelations-into-prolific-paedophile-priest-malachy-finnegan-mandy_mcauley-reports

Spotlight has also found that the Church never reported the abuse it knew about to the PSNI/RUC.  BBC claims that Bishop McAreavey knew all about the abuse claims against Finnegan before becoming bishop when he was a Canon lawyer for the diocese and was working with/for his predecessor Bishop Brookes who was aware of the abuse allegations against Finnegan and had him moved for 'treatment' in England before having him back in the diocese.

Parishioners in Hilltown have been told their priest will no longer stay in the parochial house given the abuse that occurred there during Finnegan's time in the parish.

In addition, a group of Finnegan's victims are taking their case to the Police Ombudsman as the PSNI did not carry out investigations after being told about Finnegan's abuse of a child in 1996.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-43211968

[dec]

Listen hear to Mandy McAuley:

https://audioboom.com/posts/6695336-bbcspotlightni-has-more-revelations-into-prolific-paedophile-priest-malachy-finnegan-mandy_mcauley-reports

And she is going to be back tomorrow with more on the story

[smelmoth]

Further revelations from Spotlight reporters this morning on the Nolan Show with additional reporting tomorrow morning.

Listen hear to Mandy McAuley:

https://audioboom.com/posts/6695336-bbcspotlightni-has-more-revelations-into-prolific-paedophile-priest-malachy-finnegan-mandy_mcauley-reports

Spotlight has also found that the Church never reported the abuse it knew about to the PSNI/RUC.  BBC claims that Bishop McAreavey knew all about the abuse claims against Finnegan before becoming bishop when he was a Canon lawyer for the diocese and was working with/for his predecessor Bishop Brookes who was aware of the abuse allegations against Finnegan and had him moved for 'treatment' in England before having him back in the diocese.

Parishioners in Hilltown have been told their priest will no longer stay in the parochial house given the abuse that occurred there during Finnegan's time in the parish.

In addition, a group of Finnegan's victims are taking their case to the Police Ombudsman as the PSNI did not carry out investigations after being told about Finnegan's abuse of a child in 1996.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-43211968

In other words reporting to the Police was useless

Is the "if you can't be guaranteed a good outcome just give up" attitude reflect church doctrine?

Or are you breaking away to a new doctrine and ergo being a man of principle and consistency formally leaving the Catholic Church and setting up a new church?