Drugs in UK sports....

[Franko]

You referred to this paragraph twice. And the usual 'none so blind' twice.

Are we to believe that Bolt has run considerably faster than all of these men, fuelled only by his favoured diet of chicken nuggets? When you consider the other high-profile Jamaican athletes, such as Veronica Campbell Brown and Sherone Simpson, who have fallen foul of doping rules, coupled with the historically lax approach of Jamaican officials to anti-doping, it all starts to look rather ominous. Is Bolt really the only high-profile Jamaican not to succumb to doping? The fastest man in the history of humankind, who trains with dopers, races against known dopers and has been linked with a notorious Mexican chemist. Surely not!

I don't read that as stating that Bolt was caught and that there is a big cover up.

I read it as suggesting that it is highly unlikely Bolt isn't juicing.

Now again please, for the completely 'blind', where in that paragraph does it clearly point to him being caught and it being covered up, as against the suggestion that it is unlikely that he is the only one not juicing?

He's saying that other high profile Jamaican athetes have been caught, which would indicate that they do indeed test, and test enough to catch a few of the dopers (even the high-profile ones).  He then says that this is coupled with Jamaica's histoically lax approach to "anti-doping" - ie. not drug testing.  This is where my opinion came from.

Lance Armstrong's famous "I've never failed a drugs test" line should read "I've never failed a drugs test that you guys know about"

I honestly don't see what you are implying, but you may be right. He may be treating very carefully due to libel laws etc.

The difference with Armstrong and Bolt is that while they were winning, Armstrong's cheating teammates were not failing tests or at least not publicly. Bolt's are.

I think you're proving my point here muppet.  If Armstrong's teammates had been cheating and failing tests (like Bolt's) and he was still massively outperforming them, would logic not lead you to conclude that either:

1. Some sort of cover up was going on wrt Armstrong's test results
2. Armstrong was Superman

I've been half following this conversation, did you show yet where he's been caught doping  or did you back your way out of that one??

Instead of taking time to post, maybe you should use that time to read back through.  I believe the phrase is "close your mouth and open your ears".

[Dinny Breen]

I think those sports where it's about endurance, power and speed (cycling, running, weight lifting, field athletics etc) with little skill then they are pretty much all at it especially when it comes to financial rewards. i.e. reward outweighs the risk.

Those sports that require a lot of skill to excel soccer, basketball etc then less so but if they can get away it particular when it comes to recovery then yea these guys too will do anything to get an edge.

The money spent on drug testing is a pittance compared to what these athletes earn. Money makes these sports go around, you don't upset the apple cart too much.

[Boycey]

You referred to this paragraph twice. And the usual 'none so blind' twice.

Are we to believe that Bolt has run considerably faster than all of these men, fuelled only by his favoured diet of chicken nuggets? When you consider the other high-profile Jamaican athletes, such as Veronica Campbell Brown and Sherone Simpson, who have fallen foul of doping rules, coupled with the historically lax approach of Jamaican officials to anti-doping, it all starts to look rather ominous. Is Bolt really the only high-profile Jamaican not to succumb to doping? The fastest man in the history of humankind, who trains with dopers, races against known dopers and has been linked with a notorious Mexican chemist. Surely not!

I don't read that as stating that Bolt was caught and that there is a big cover up.

I read it as suggesting that it is highly unlikely Bolt isn't juicing.

Now again please, for the completely 'blind', where in that paragraph does it clearly point to him being caught and it being covered up, as against the suggestion that it is unlikely that he is the only one not juicing?

He's saying that other high profile Jamaican athetes have been caught, which would indicate that they do indeed test, and test enough to catch a few of the dopers (even the high-profile ones).  He then says that this is coupled with Jamaica's histoically lax approach to "anti-doping" - ie. not drug testing.  This is where my opinion came from.

Lance Armstrong's famous "I've never failed a drugs test" line should read "I've never failed a drugs test that you guys know about"

I honestly don't see what you are implying, but you may be right. He may be treating very carefully due to libel laws etc.

The difference with Armstrong and Bolt is that while they were winning, Armstrong's cheating teammates were not failing tests or at least not publicly. Bolt's are.

I think you're proving my point here muppet.  If Armstrong's teammates had been cheating and failing tests (like Bolt's) and he was still massively outperforming them, would logic not lead you to conclude that either:

1. Some sort of cover up was going on wrt Armstrong's test results
2. Armstrong was Superman

I've been half following this conversation, did you show yet where he's been caught doping  or did you back your way out of that one??

Instead of taking time to post, maybe you should use that time to read back through.  I believe the phrase is "close your mouth and open your ears".

That's a no then so, carry on..

[JoG2]

You referred to this paragraph twice. And the usual 'none so blind' twice.

Are we to believe that Bolt has run considerably faster than all of these men, fuelled only by his favoured diet of chicken nuggets? When you consider the other high-profile Jamaican athletes, such as Veronica Campbell Brown and Sherone Simpson, who have fallen foul of doping rules, coupled with the historically lax approach of Jamaican officials to anti-doping, it all starts to look rather ominous. Is Bolt really the only high-profile Jamaican not to succumb to doping? The fastest man in the history of humankind, who trains with dopers, races against known dopers and has been linked with a notorious Mexican chemist. Surely not!

I don't read that as stating that Bolt was caught and that there is a big cover up.

I read it as suggesting that it is highly unlikely Bolt isn't juicing.

Now again please, for the completely 'blind', where in that paragraph does it clearly point to him being caught and it being covered up, as against the suggestion that it is unlikely that he is the only one not juicing?

He's saying that other high profile Jamaican athetes have been caught, which would indicate that they do indeed test, and test enough to catch a few of the dopers (even the high-profile ones).  He then says that this is coupled with Jamaica's histoically lax approach to "anti-doping" - ie. not drug testing.  This is where my opinion came from.

Lance Armstrong's famous "I've never failed a drugs test" line should read "I've never failed a drugs test that you guys know about"

I honestly don't see what you are implying, but you may be right. He may be treating very carefully due to libel laws etc.

The difference with Armstrong and Bolt is that while they were winning, Armstrong's cheating teammates were not failing tests or at least not publicly. Bolt's are.

I think you're proving my point here muppet.  If Armstrong's teammates had been cheating and failing tests (like Bolt's) and he was still massively outperforming them, would logic not lead you to conclude that either:

1. Some sort of cover up was going on wrt Armstrong's test results
2. Armstrong was Superman

I've been half following this conversation, did you show yet where he's been caught doping  or did you back your way out of that one??

Instead of taking time to post, maybe you should use that time to read back through.  I believe the phrase is "close your mouth and open your ears".

Franko -  "Bolt has been caught"

that's all you need to know Boycey, there in black & white :-)

[muppet]

You referred to this paragraph twice. And the usual 'none so blind' twice.

Are we to believe that Bolt has run considerably faster than all of these men, fuelled only by his favoured diet of chicken nuggets? When you consider the other high-profile Jamaican athletes, such as Veronica Campbell Brown and Sherone Simpson, who have fallen foul of doping rules, coupled with the historically lax approach of Jamaican officials to anti-doping, it all starts to look rather ominous. Is Bolt really the only high-profile Jamaican not to succumb to doping? The fastest man in the history of humankind, who trains with dopers, races against known dopers and has been linked with a notorious Mexican chemist. Surely not!

I don't read that as stating that Bolt was caught and that there is a big cover up.

I read it as suggesting that it is highly unlikely Bolt isn't juicing.

Now again please, for the completely 'blind', where in that paragraph does it clearly point to him being caught and it being covered up, as against the suggestion that it is unlikely that he is the only one not juicing?

He's saying that other high profile Jamaican athetes have been caught, which would indicate that they do indeed test, and test enough to catch a few of the dopers (even the high-profile ones).  He then says that this is coupled with Jamaica's histoically lax approach to "anti-doping" - ie. not drug testing.  This is where my opinion came from.

Lance Armstrong's famous "I've never failed a drugs test" line should read "I've never failed a drugs test that you guys know about"

I honestly don't see what you are implying, but you may be right. He may be treating very carefully due to libel laws etc.

The difference with Armstrong and Bolt is that while they were winning, Armstrong's cheating teammates were not failing tests or at least not publicly. Bolt's are.

I think you're proving my point here muppet.  If Armstrong's teammates had been cheating and failing tests (like Bolt's) and he was still massively outperforming them, would logic not lead you to conclude that either:

1. Some sort of cover up was going on wrt Armstrong's test results
2. Armstrong was Superman

Armstrong's team mates didn't publicly fail tests while they were his team mates. (There was the odd one like Gianpaolo Mondini in 2002, who caught with EPO, and was sacked by US Postal).

In 2012 the USDA stated that Armstrong's US Postal team operated 'the most sophisticated, professionalised and successful doping programme the sport has ever seen'.

Some ex-US Postal riders were caught doping, after they had left the team.

My point here is that some of them, after they were caught, broke the silence and pointed the finger at Armstrong. The beginning of the end for Armstrong was when these former teammates started to talk. The incentive for them to do so was high. A couple sold books to explain themselves, make money and to put the record straight regarding Armstrong. Landis and Hamilton spring to mind.

The same could apply to Jamaican and indeed other sprinters, who are done for doping. Are any of these men pointing the finger at Bolt? If so please post up some links, if they are not pointing the finger, why not? Let's face it, they would know a lot more than we do.

[Franko]

You referred to this paragraph twice. And the usual 'none so blind' twice.

Are we to believe that Bolt has run considerably faster than all of these men, fuelled only by his favoured diet of chicken nuggets? When you consider the other high-profile Jamaican athletes, such as Veronica Campbell Brown and Sherone Simpson, who have fallen foul of doping rules, coupled with the historically lax approach of Jamaican officials to anti-doping, it all starts to look rather ominous. Is Bolt really the only high-profile Jamaican not to succumb to doping? The fastest man in the history of humankind, who trains with dopers, races against known dopers and has been linked with a notorious Mexican chemist. Surely not!

I don't read that as stating that Bolt was caught and that there is a big cover up.

I read it as suggesting that it is highly unlikely Bolt isn't juicing.

Now again please, for the completely 'blind', where in that paragraph does it clearly point to him being caught and it being covered up, as against the suggestion that it is unlikely that he is the only one not juicing?

He's saying that other high profile Jamaican athetes have been caught, which would indicate that they do indeed test, and test enough to catch a few of the dopers (even the high-profile ones).  He then says that this is coupled with Jamaica's histoically lax approach to "anti-doping" - ie. not drug testing.  This is where my opinion came from.

Lance Armstrong's famous "I've never failed a drugs test" line should read "I've never failed a drugs test that you guys know about"

I honestly don't see what you are implying, but you may be right. He may be treating very carefully due to libel laws etc.

The difference with Armstrong and Bolt is that while they were winning, Armstrong's cheating teammates were not failing tests or at least not publicly. Bolt's are.

I think you're proving my point here muppet.  If Armstrong's teammates had been cheating and failing tests (like Bolt's) and he was still massively outperforming them, would logic not lead you to conclude that either:

1. Some sort of cover up was going on wrt Armstrong's test results
2. Armstrong was Superman

I've been half following this conversation, did you show yet where he's been caught doping  or did you back your way out of that one??

Instead of taking time to post, maybe you should use that time to read back through.  I believe the phrase is "close your mouth and open your ears".

That's a no then so, carry on..

Ah, another one reduced to the smartarse responses.  Reading mustn't be your thing Boycey.

[Franko]

You referred to this paragraph twice. And the usual 'none so blind' twice.

Are we to believe that Bolt has run considerably faster than all of these men, fuelled only by his favoured diet of chicken nuggets? When you consider the other high-profile Jamaican athletes, such as Veronica Campbell Brown and Sherone Simpson, who have fallen foul of doping rules, coupled with the historically lax approach of Jamaican officials to anti-doping, it all starts to look rather ominous. Is Bolt really the only high-profile Jamaican not to succumb to doping? The fastest man in the history of humankind, who trains with dopers, races against known dopers and has been linked with a notorious Mexican chemist. Surely not!

I don't read that as stating that Bolt was caught and that there is a big cover up.

I read it as suggesting that it is highly unlikely Bolt isn't juicing.

Now again please, for the completely 'blind', where in that paragraph does it clearly point to him being caught and it being covered up, as against the suggestion that it is unlikely that he is the only one not juicing?

He's saying that other high profile Jamaican athetes have been caught, which would indicate that they do indeed test, and test enough to catch a few of the dopers (even the high-profile ones).  He then says that this is coupled with Jamaica's histoically lax approach to "anti-doping" - ie. not drug testing.  This is where my opinion came from.

Lance Armstrong's famous "I've never failed a drugs test" line should read "I've never failed a drugs test that you guys know about"

I honestly don't see what you are implying, but you may be right. He may be treating very carefully due to libel laws etc.

The difference with Armstrong and Bolt is that while they were winning, Armstrong's cheating teammates were not failing tests or at least not publicly. Bolt's are.

I think you're proving my point here muppet.  If Armstrong's teammates had been cheating and failing tests (like Bolt's) and he was still massively outperforming them, would logic not lead you to conclude that either:

1. Some sort of cover up was going on wrt Armstrong's test results
2. Armstrong was Superman

Armstrong's team mates didn't publicly fail tests while they were his team mates. (There was the odd one like Gianpaolo Mondini in 2002, who caught with EPO, and was sacked by US Postal).

In 2012 the USDA stated that Armstrong's US Postal team operated 'the most sophisticated, professionalised and successful doping programme the sport has ever seen'.

Some ex-US Postal riders were caught doping, after they had left the team.

My point here is that some of them, after they were caught, broke the silence and pointed the finger at Armstrong. The beginning of the end for Armstrong was when these former teammates started to talk. The incentive for them to do so was high. A couple sold books to explain themselves, make money and to put the record straight regarding Armstrong. Landis and Hamilton spring to mind.

The same could apply to Jamaican and indeed other sprinters, who are done for doping. Are any of these men pointing the finger at Bolt? If so please post up some links, if they are not pointing the finger, why not? Let's face it, they would know a lot more than we do.

I don't think that Jamaican athletics operates a team-wide doping programme as per US Postal.  Cycling, at Armstrong's level is/was a team sport.  Athletics is an individual thing.  And doping within athletics is an individual thing that's possibly whispered between close associates within a strictly defined and trusted inner circle.  Some of them aren't pointing the finger because they probably have no hard evidence.

Also, it's widely accepted and worth remembering that Armstrong would most likely have gotten away with the whole she-bang had he not got greedy and decided to make a comeback in 2009.

[Franko]

You referred to this paragraph twice. And the usual 'none so blind' twice.

Are we to believe that Bolt has run considerably faster than all of these men, fuelled only by his favoured diet of chicken nuggets? When you consider the other high-profile Jamaican athletes, such as Veronica Campbell Brown and Sherone Simpson, who have fallen foul of doping rules, coupled with the historically lax approach of Jamaican officials to anti-doping, it all starts to look rather ominous. Is Bolt really the only high-profile Jamaican not to succumb to doping? The fastest man in the history of humankind, who trains with dopers, races against known dopers and has been linked with a notorious Mexican chemist. Surely not!

I don't read that as stating that Bolt was caught and that there is a big cover up.

I read it as suggesting that it is highly unlikely Bolt isn't juicing.

Now again please, for the completely 'blind', where in that paragraph does it clearly point to him being caught and it being covered up, as against the suggestion that it is unlikely that he is the only one not juicing?

He's saying that other high profile Jamaican athetes have been caught, which would indicate that they do indeed test, and test enough to catch a few of the dopers (even the high-profile ones).  He then says that this is coupled with Jamaica's histoically lax approach to "anti-doping" - ie. not drug testing.  This is where my opinion came from.

Lance Armstrong's famous "I've never failed a drugs test" line should read "I've never failed a drugs test that you guys know about"

I honestly don't see what you are implying, but you may be right. He may be treating very carefully due to libel laws etc.

The difference with Armstrong and Bolt is that while they were winning, Armstrong's cheating teammates were not failing tests or at least not publicly. Bolt's are.

I think you're proving my point here muppet.  If Armstrong's teammates had been cheating and failing tests (like Bolt's) and he was still massively outperforming them, would logic not lead you to conclude that either:

1. Some sort of cover up was going on wrt Armstrong's test results
2. Armstrong was Superman

I've been half following this conversation, did you show yet where he's been caught doping  or did you back your way out of that one??

Instead of taking time to post, maybe you should use that time to read back through.  I believe the phrase is "close your mouth and open your ears".

Franko -  "Bolt has been caught"

that's all you need to know Boycey, there in black & white :-)

A wonderful contribution.  Thanks.

[muppet]

Armstrong was a Narcissist. I accept cycling is structured differently, particularly from the team pov, but human nature is the same.

But if the suggestion is that Bolt failed a test, and that it was covered up, presumably in Jamaica (?), then those Jamaicans that were hung out to dry must be pretty pissed off watching Bolt the world's poster child, while they are Asafa Powell the drugs cheat etc .

If he failed in a major championship and it was covered up, then it is amazing to me that not a whisper has been said anywhere. There are lots of people who could make money, even just telling the story. There would be lots of athletes who have been banned, who would be happy to point the finger too. Gatlin is refusing to speak to the BBC because they call him 2 time drugs cheat all the time. Not to mention the whole Good versus Evil portrayal of his duel with Bolt.

I'd imagine if he had a sniff of evidence he would be singing from the rooftops.

[Franko]

Armstrong was a Narcissist. I accept cycling is structured differently, particularly from the team pov, but human nature is the same.

But if the suggestion is that Bolt failed a test, and that it was covered up, presumably in Jamaica (?), then those Jamaicans that were hung out to dry must be pretty pissed off watching Bolt the world's poster child, while they are Asafa Powell the drugs cheat etc .

If he failed in a major championship and it was covered up, then it is amazing to me that not a whisper has been said anywhere. There are lots of people who could make money, even just telling the story. There would be lots of athletes who have been banned, who would be happy to point the finger too. Gatlin is refusing to speak to the BBC because they call him 2 time drugs cheat all the time. Not to mention the whole Good versus Evil portrayal of his duel with Bolt.

I'd imagine if he had a sniff of evidence he would be singing from the rooftops.

I understand this.  But there are many ways to make it in a guy's own interests to stay quiet.  Lance nearly did it with many tens of people.  If he hadn't been such an arrogant and obnoxious bollix he might have managed it.  It was only after the lid came off that things started to really come out about him.  It may never come out in Bolt's case, but equally, I will never be convinced that he's clean.

[muppet]

Armstrong was a Narcissist. I accept cycling is structured differently, particularly from the team pov, but human nature is the same.

But if the suggestion is that Bolt failed a test, and that it was covered up, presumably in Jamaica (?), then those Jamaicans that were hung out to dry must be pretty pissed off watching Bolt the world's poster child, while they are Asafa Powell the drugs cheat etc .

If he failed in a major championship and it was covered up, then it is amazing to me that not a whisper has been said anywhere. There are lots of people who could make money, even just telling the story. There would be lots of athletes who have been banned, who would be happy to point the finger too. Gatlin is refusing to speak to the BBC because they call him 2 time drugs cheat all the time. Not to mention the whole Good versus Evil portrayal of his duel with Bolt.

I'd imagine if he had a sniff of evidence he would be singing from the rooftops.

I understand this.  But there are many ways to make it in a guy's own interests to stay quiet.  Lance nearly did it with many tens of people.  If he hadn't been such an arrogant and obnoxious bollix he might have managed it.  It was only after the lid came off that things started to really come out about him.  It may never come out in Bolt's case, but equally, I will never be convinced that he's clean.

The thing is, if there is a systematic cover up, it will come out in the end. It always does.

[Franko]

Armstrong was a Narcissist. I accept cycling is structured differently, particularly from the team pov, but human nature is the same.

But if the suggestion is that Bolt failed a test, and that it was covered up, presumably in Jamaica (?), then those Jamaicans that were hung out to dry must be pretty pissed off watching Bolt the world's poster child, while they are Asafa Powell the drugs cheat etc .

If he failed in a major championship and it was covered up, then it is amazing to me that not a whisper has been said anywhere. There are lots of people who could make money, even just telling the story. There would be lots of athletes who have been banned, who would be happy to point the finger too. Gatlin is refusing to speak to the BBC because they call him 2 time drugs cheat all the time. Not to mention the whole Good versus Evil portrayal of his duel with Bolt.

I'd imagine if he had a sniff of evidence he would be singing from the rooftops.

I understand this.  But there are many ways to make it in a guy's own interests to stay quiet.  Lance nearly did it with many tens of people.  If he hadn't been such an arrogant and obnoxious bollix he might have managed it.  It was only after the lid came off that things started to really come out about him.  It may never come out in Bolt's case, but equally, I will never be convinced that he's clean.

The thing is, if there is a systematic cover up, it will come out in the end. It always does.

I hope you're right.  And if it does, I won't even say I told you so!

[yellowcard]

Armstrong was a Narcissist. I accept cycling is structured differently, particularly from the team pov, but human nature is the same.

But if the suggestion is that Bolt failed a test, and that it was covered up, presumably in Jamaica (?), then those Jamaicans that were hung out to dry must be pretty pissed off watching Bolt the world's poster child, while they are Asafa Powell the drugs cheat etc .

If he failed in a major championship and it was covered up, then it is amazing to me that not a whisper has been said anywhere. There are lots of people who could make money, even just telling the story. There would be lots of athletes who have been banned, who would be happy to point the finger too. Gatlin is refusing to speak to the BBC because they call him 2 time drugs cheat all the time. Not to mention the whole Good versus Evil portrayal of his duel with Bolt.

I'd imagine if he had a sniff of evidence he would be singing from the rooftops.

I understand this.  But there are many ways to make it in a guy's own interests to stay quiet.  Lance nearly did it with many tens of people.  If he hadn't been such an arrogant and obnoxious bollix he might have managed it.  It was only after the lid came off that things started to really come out about him.  It may never come out in Bolt's case, but equally, I will never be convinced that he's clean.

The thing is, if there is a systematic cover up, it will come out in the end. It always does.

Flo Jo, Miguel Indurain are widely accepted to be dopers (I'm sure there were plenty of others) but to the best of my knowledge were not caught.

[muppet]

Armstrong was a Narcissist. I accept cycling is structured differently, particularly from the team pov, but human nature is the same.

But if the suggestion is that Bolt failed a test, and that it was covered up, presumably in Jamaica (?), then those Jamaicans that were hung out to dry must be pretty pissed off watching Bolt the world's poster child, while they are Asafa Powell the drugs cheat etc .

If he failed in a major championship and it was covered up, then it is amazing to me that not a whisper has been said anywhere. There are lots of people who could make money, even just telling the story. There would be lots of athletes who have been banned, who would be happy to point the finger too. Gatlin is refusing to speak to the BBC because they call him 2 time drugs cheat all the time. Not to mention the whole Good versus Evil portrayal of his duel with Bolt.

I'd imagine if he had a sniff of evidence he would be singing from the rooftops.

I understand this.  But there are many ways to make it in a guy's own interests to stay quiet.  Lance nearly did it with many tens of people.  If he hadn't been such an arrogant and obnoxious bollix he might have managed it.  It was only after the lid came off that things started to really come out about him.  It may never come out in Bolt's case, but equally, I will never be convinced that he's clean.

The thing is, if there is a systematic cover up, it will come out in the end. It always does.

Flo Jo, Miguel Indurain are widely accepted to be dopers (I'm sure there were plenty of others) but to the best of my knowledge were not caught.

Your point is correct, but if was different times, and there still was smoke.....

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/FLO-JO+DID+USE+DRUGS+TO+WIN%3b+Steroids+transformed+her+says+training...-a060559543

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/drugs-in-sport-indurain-allowed-to-use-banned-drug-1379584.html

[INDIANA]

Armstrong was a Narcissist. I accept cycling is structured differently, particularly from the team pov, but human nature is the same.

But if the suggestion is that Bolt failed a test, and that it was covered up, presumably in Jamaica (?), then those Jamaicans that were hung out to dry must be pretty pissed off watching Bolt the world's poster child, while they are Asafa Powell the drugs cheat etc .

If he failed in a major championship and it was covered up, then it is amazing to me that not a whisper has been said anywhere. There are lots of people who could make money, even just telling the story. There would be lots of athletes who have been banned, who would be happy to point the finger too. Gatlin is refusing to speak to the BBC because they call him 2 time drugs cheat all the time. Not to mention the whole Good versus Evil portrayal of his duel with Bolt.

I'd imagine if he had a sniff of evidence he would be singing from the rooftops.

I understand this.  But there are many ways to make it in a guy's own interests to stay quiet.  Lance nearly did it with many tens of people.  If he hadn't been such an arrogant and obnoxious bollix he might have managed it.  It was only after the lid came off that things started to really come out about him.  It may never come out in Bolt's case, but equally, I will never be convinced that he's clean.

The thing is, if there is a systematic cover up, it will come out in the end. It always does.

Flo Jo, Miguel Indurain are widely accepted to be dopers (I'm sure there were plenty of others) but to the best of my knowledge were not caught.

Your point is correct, but if was different times, and there still was smoke.....

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/FLO-JO+DID+USE+DRUGS+TO+WIN%3b+Steroids+transformed+her+says+training...-a060559543

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/drugs-in-sport-indurain-allowed-to-use-banned-drug-1379584.html

I don't think there is any doubt Indurain doped. But he was a freak as well. Lowest recorded resting heart rate of a cyclist ever I- 28 beats a minute.
The measurement was taken very early in his career . His lung capacity was twice a normal man's and his VO2 Max was way above Lance Armstrong's. He was also a very talented young cyclist.

Not suggesting he didn't dope- everyone did at that time. But I think in a clean race he'd have won anyway- not that it makes it right.