UK v Russia

Started by bennydorano, March 17, 2018, 01:20:21 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

sid waddell

Quote from: Hardy on March 19, 2018, 12:50:01 PM
Notwithstanding the particular rag in which it's published and the wilder excesses of which the writer is capable, this, to me, is the right take on the whole subject:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-5486149/PETER-HITCHENS-goading-Russia-dirty-war-win.html

I find this longing amongst some people to portray Putin as an anti-imperialist to be rather hilarious. He is as imperialist as they come.

Russia has shown plenty of inclination to start or get involved in wars under Putin. Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine, Syria. 

It's widely believed, and highly credibly so, that not long after becoming Prime Minister in 1999, he ordered a spate of apartment bombings against his own people which he blamed on the Chechens in order to prosecute a war which would boost his own popularity. There is no evidence that the Chechens were involved at all in these bombings.

Far be it from me to defend the Brits and the Americans over foreign policy, but exactly what "goading" of Russia have they been involved in?

Russia has been killing people in Britain with impunity for well over a decade. The Brits have made very little noise about this, far less than they should have, likely because i) they're petrified of the Russians and ii) because Britain is a haven for dirty Russian money.

In 2012 Obama laughed at the notion that Russia was a threat to US national security and international security. He told Romney "the 80s wants its foreign policy back". That's not goading. If anything Obama took the Russian threat far too lightly.

Sovereign countries have the right to decide on their own foreign policy. If they want to join NATO, what business of Russia's is it?

There is no such a thing as "Russia's backyard". Not if you believe that international borders are to mean anything.

Trump's tactics of always needing an enemy were not licked off the ground. They come from Putin. Putin is a dictator. A dictator, and a wannabe dictator, always needs an enemy.

Putin has relentlessly cultivated the west as an enemy, because, to be a dictator, that's what you have to do to get people behind you.

Russian threats to western security are not imagined, they are very real. Russia's campaign to undermine western democracy by giving support to far-right politicians, both financial and through internet-driven mass propaganda is not imagined. It couldn't be more real.

Who in the west is talking about war against Russia? Putin is the one who keeps testing and testing and testing the boundaries to see what he can get away with. If anybody wants war, it's him.

Syferus

#46
The fact he got away with waging a war against the Ukraine so easily seems to be the point at which Putin realised he didn't even need to make a perfunctory attempt to appear not to be a self-interested dictator. He literally invaded the Ukraine without a casus belli and occupied it. All bets were off after that. He has became progressively more transparently evil in recent years.

The reason he's used such absurdly complicated and identifiable assassination vectors is because he want any and all potential defectors or leaks to know exactly what happens when you cross him, what lengths he will go to and how little regard he has for another nation's sovereignty when carrying out these acts. The message is if you cross the Russian Tsar you are never safe. He couldn't give a shît what Britain or the West thinks.

Itchy

Quote from: Esmarelda on March 19, 2018, 11:16:23 AM
Quote from: screenexile on March 19, 2018, 09:11:23 AM
Staggering the amount of people giving Russia the benefit of the doubt!!

Put in is slowly destabilising the world to diminish the term alliances that are there to keep him in check!!
There seems to be a very basic misunderstanding of what some people are saying on this thread. The opening piece, and therefore the thread, has little to do with Putin. It has to do with an allegation made by the UK government, the substance of the allegation and the evidence produced.

By your logic, if Putin was accused of anything by the UK, anything at all regardless of the evidence produced, then he is automatically guilty, because of your, and others' views on his past performance.

Applying that logic almost sounds like whataboutery; "well he did A, B and C in the past so this is just what you'd expect him to be up to and therefore it's definitely true." Not quite whataboutery, but a close relation.

If I applied the same argument to the UK government I could say, well they lied about the WMDs to justify the war in Iraq so this spreading of lies is exactly the type of thing they'd get up to.


It appears to me that bennydorano, Bennycake and Itchy are saying that they don't necessarily believe this specfic UK story. They're not saying anything about Putin. The "other side" have the case closed.

That's my reading of it anyway.

Exactly. I'm no defender of Putin. However I refuse to trust any auld story mi5 or mi6 throw out as they have shown before what liars they are

bennydorano

#48
Hitchen's article does reflect the point I've been making (that Putin is a nasty piece of work point is neither here nor there), What is the point of the UK's actions? The hastiness of it? what is their endgame? Hitchens doesn't go into that territory but I do think there's an element of Brexit deflection, teeing up Corbyn for a self-implosion & May hoping it might be the thing that saves her personally - her Falklands.

Syferus

Quote from: bennydorano on March 19, 2018, 04:47:59 PM
Hitchen's article does reflects the point I've been making (the Putin is a nasty piece of work point is neither here nor there), What is the point of the UK's actions? The hastiness of it? what is their endgame? Hitchens doesn't go into that territory but I do think there's an element of Brexit deflection, teeing up Corbyn for a self-implosion & May hoping it might be the thing that saves her personally - her Falklands.

There's plenty of politicking going on now but you still have to call a spade a spade. If Corbyn decides to help the Tories and feed into all the worst perceptions about him that is his problem and neither here nor there - the Russians committed this act of terror.


sid waddell

Quote from: Itchy on March 19, 2018, 07:29:19 PM
Thank God there are good moral upstanding people in politics outside if Russia

https://www.channel4.com/news/cambridge-analytica-revealed-trumps-election-consultants-filmed-saying-they-use-bribes-and-sex-workers-to-entrap-politicians-investigation
Cambridge Analytica were used by Trump, who is used by Putin, and the campaigners for Brexit, which benefits Putin.

It's another branch of the internet-driven mass propaganda approach that the Russians specialise in.


Itchy

Quote from: sid waddell on March 19, 2018, 07:34:22 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 19, 2018, 07:29:19 PM
Thank God there are good moral upstanding people in politics outside if Russia

https://www.channel4.com/news/cambridge-analytica-revealed-trumps-election-consultants-filmed-saying-they-use-bribes-and-sex-workers-to-entrap-politicians-investigation
Cambridge Analytica were used by Trump, who is used by Putin, and the campaigners for Brexit, which benefits Putin.

It's another branch of the internet-driven mass propaganda approach that the Russians specialise in.

Putin kidnapped Shergar too I heard. Well Trump did but Putin told him to. A spook in MI5 told me.


Therealdonald

Do you not think it's got to the stage now though where Putin is fed up with the UK and Uncle Sam's hypocrisy? I find him as intriguing a man as there is in the world or has been in the world for the past 40 years. He certainly is a dictator and has committed serious crimes but it can't be denied how interesting he is.

Syferus

#55
Quote from: Therealdonald on March 19, 2018, 10:14:52 PM
Do you not think it's got to the stage now though where Putin is fed up with the UK and Uncle Sam's hypocrisy? I find him as intriguing a man as there is in the world or has been in the world for the past 40 years. He certainly is a dictator and has committed serious crimes but it can't be denied how interesting he is.

He's a fallow imitation of Stalin. He's not really interesting even as a curio. Russia had a chance for a new beginning and chose a KGB strongman. When the world goes renewable they are so fûcked it isn't funny. And few will be all that upset about it.

If he was smart he would have used the money to develop other industries and modernise Russia as an open society that people want to do business with rather than feel compelled to do business with. Instead he enriched himself and brought about the era of the oligarch.

trileacman

Quote from: Hardy on March 19, 2018, 12:50:01 PM
Notwithstanding the particular rag in which it's published and the wilder excesses of which the writer is capable, this, to me, is the right take on the whole subject:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-5486149/PETER-HITCHENS-goading-Russia-dirty-war-win.html

Sums up my sentiments also. Pity such a reasoned article could appear in such a rag.

Russia most likely killed Litvenyenko and poisoned Skripal. They're hoods but we're (the West) involved in just as many dirty tricks as them and most of Russia's ploys have been in response to unnecessary foreign intervention that has destabilised regions and brought suffering to millions.

The Russians fucked about in Ukraine after the EU sought to spread influence over former Russian satellite states. Russians remain particularly distrustful of the EU as a proxy NATO grouping and since WW2 have always distrusted the Germans. Not without cause given the manner in which slavs and communists were viewed by Germans in the not so distant past. Several posters have expressed distrust of the English, tories and secret service, mostly for offences against the Irish that occurred longer ago or appear more minor that Russia/German grievances. The point is that Russian distrust of the EU is in some small regard understandable.

The EU rushed to become involved in domestic demonstrations against what was a democratically elected Ukrainian president offering conditions and support to the opposition who happened to be pro-EU and anti--Russia. That was meddling in the domestic affairs of a sovereign democratic nation, an action which is now a favourite stick to beat the Russians with. The Russians responded by increasing tensions and propagating a civil war. Several opportunities existed to appease matters and mediate with the Russians but the EU viewed Russian involvement in the Ukrainian situation as interference whilst oblivious to their own actions as the same.

Now I'm not a Russian apologist but some f**king international diplomacy by the West wouldn't have gone amiss in the last 10 years. We shared amenable relations with Russia for 15 years after the fall of communism and if we'd have been a bit more considerate and careful around Ukraine we could have averted this messy standoff with Russia. Russia plays by some dirty tricks in this new cold war but as an underdog in this fight it has to. Russian trade and GDP is menial compared to the US and EU-27. Economic sanctions are hammer blows to them whilst their actions against us only offer to embarrass our notions of sovereignty and self proclaimed ability to enforce justice internationally.

We can seek appeasement with Russia and still end up as the bigger dog. Like the smaller man in the fight they have to keep going to save face but the collective strength of the Western nations means we can, and should, seek to diffuse this stand-off. Destabilisation of a nuclear power is exceptionally poor strategy, an approach I'd only expect of some half-cooked, German-American, billionaire megalomaniac.
Fantasy Rugby World Cup Champion 2011,
Fantasy 6 Nations Champion 2014

sid waddell

Quote from: Itchy on March 19, 2018, 07:37:00 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 19, 2018, 07:34:22 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 19, 2018, 07:29:19 PM
Thank God there are good moral upstanding people in politics outside if Russia

https://www.channel4.com/news/cambridge-analytica-revealed-trumps-election-consultants-filmed-saying-they-use-bribes-and-sex-workers-to-entrap-politicians-investigation
Cambridge Analytica were used by Trump, who is used by Putin, and the campaigners for Brexit, which benefits Putin.

It's another branch of the internet-driven mass propaganda approach that the Russians specialise in.

Putin kidnapped Shergar too I heard. Well Trump did but Putin told him to. A spook in MI5 told me.

A rather pathetic response.

Putin is as white as the snow in Siberia if you're to believe some posters here.

This discussion about Russia is proving a very interesting thought experiment, I must say.






sid waddell

Quote from: Syferus on March 19, 2018, 10:32:21 PM
Quote from: Therealdonald on March 19, 2018, 10:14:52 PM
Do you not think it's got to the stage now though where Putin is fed up with the UK and Uncle Sam's hypocrisy? I find him as intriguing a man as there is in the world or has been in the world for the past 40 years. He certainly is a dictator and has committed serious crimes but it can't be denied how interesting he is.

He's a fallow imitation of Stalin. He's not really interesting even as a curio. Russia had a chance for a new beginning and chose a KGB strongman. When the world goes renewable they are so fûcked it isn't funny. And few will be all that upset about it.

If he was smart he would have used the money to develop other industries and modernise Russia as an open society that people want to do business with rather than feel compelled to do business with. Instead he enriched himself and brought about the era of the oligarch.

The gas thing is Putin actually came to power because the Russians decided to appoint a new Prime Minister and presumed successor to Yeltsin based on a public competition to find out Russia's favourite fictional hero.

The public chose a character who was a Russian spy inside the Nazis during World War II, and Putin was the best fit with this character the regime could find, him having been a KGB spy in East Germany.

He didn't bring about the era of the oligarch, but he did ramp the already rampant corruption within the country, with the main beneficiary being himself.

Putin's problem is he has many billions (Bill Browder estimates it at around 200 billion US dollars) stashed all over Europe and he's petrified of it being appropriated. He's also petrified what will happen to him if and when he eventually has to step down or is deposed.

Thankfully for him he has a willing army of useful idiots willing to do his bidding on Irish internet forums, which I'm sure he'll be happy about - it might even save him the few bob he'd have to spend to get paid trolls to do his bidding, although there are plenty of those too.

Itchy

Quote from: sid waddell on March 20, 2018, 01:13:39 AM
Quote from: Itchy on March 19, 2018, 07:37:00 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 19, 2018, 07:34:22 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 19, 2018, 07:29:19 PM
Thank God there are good moral upstanding people in politics outside if Russia

https://www.channel4.com/news/cambridge-analytica-revealed-trumps-election-consultants-filmed-saying-they-use-bribes-and-sex-workers-to-entrap-politicians-investigation
Cambridge Analytica were used by Trump, who is used by Putin, and the campaigners for Brexit, which benefits Putin.

It's another branch of the internet-driven mass propaganda approach that the Russians specialise in.

Putin kidnapped Shergar too I heard. Well Trump did but Putin told him to. A spook in MI5 told me.

A rather pathetic response.

Putin is as white as the snow in Siberia if you're to believe some posters here.

This discussion about Russia is proving a very interesting thought experiment, I must say.

Point out where anyone 9n this thread said or inferred he was white as snow. You are just making that up. That's pathetic