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Non GAA Discussion => General discussion => Topic started by: Ambrose on October 29, 2019, 02:24:04 PM

Title: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Ambrose on October 29, 2019, 02:24:04 PM
Like a dog returning to its own vomit, voters in the North look set to go to the polls for a third time this year.

As things currently stand the DUP hold 10 seats, SF 7 and Independent Unionist 1.

What changes, if any, can we expect to see after yet another election. Will the SDLP step aside in north Belfast and give Finucane a clear run? Can the current loyalist weapons dump withstand the tidal wave of support for Naomi Long in south Belfast. What other changes are possible throughout the six counties between now and Election Day?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: t_mac on October 29, 2019, 02:29:40 PM
Quote from: Ambrose on October 29, 2019, 02:24:04 PM
Like a dog returning to its own vomit, voters in the North look set to go to the polls for a third time this year.

As things currently stand the DUP hold 10 seats, SF 7 and Independent Unionist 1.

What changes, if any, can we expect to see after yet another election. Will the SDLP step aside in north Belfast and give Finucane a clear run? Can the current loyalist weapons dump withstand the tidal wave of support for Naomi Long in south Belfast. What other changes are possible throughout the six counties between now and Election Day?

Probably no nationalist representation again in any institution in which they have a vote.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on October 29, 2019, 02:35:37 PM
Quote from: Ambrose on October 29, 2019, 02:24:04 PM
Like a dog returning to its own vomit, voters in the North look set to go to the polls for a third time this year.

As things currently stand the DUP hold 10 seats, SF 7 and Independent Unionist 1.

What changes, if any, can we expect to see after yet another election. Will the SDLP step aside in north Belfast and give Finucane a clear run? Can the current loyalist weapons dump withstand the tidal wave of support for Naomi Long in south Belfast. What other changes are possible throughout the six counties between now and Election Day?

When is the RHI report out?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: red hander on October 29, 2019, 02:44:18 PM
Would love to see the loyalist gunrunning terrorist's bike of a daughter out on her ear, that would be nice.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: WT4E on October 29, 2019, 02:49:08 PM
Quote from: marty34 on October 29, 2019, 02:35:37 PM
Quote from: Ambrose on October 29, 2019, 02:24:04 PM
Like a dog returning to its own vomit, voters in the North look set to go to the polls for a third time this year.

As things currently stand the DUP hold 10 seats, SF 7 and Independent Unionist 1.

What changes, if any, can we expect to see after yet another election. Will the SDLP step aside in north Belfast and give Finucane a clear run? Can the current loyalist weapons dump withstand the tidal wave of support for Naomi Long in south Belfast. What other changes are possible throughout the six counties between now and Election Day?

When is the RHI report out?

Expected in November - so any day now unless DUP/UDA get it delayed
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on October 29, 2019, 02:56:34 PM
Quote from: WT4E on October 29, 2019, 02:49:08 PM
Quote from: marty34 on October 29, 2019, 02:35:37 PM
Quote from: Ambrose on October 29, 2019, 02:24:04 PM
Like a dog returning to its own vomit, voters in the North look set to go to the polls for a third time this year.

As things currently stand the DUP hold 10 seats, SF 7 and Independent Unionist 1.

What changes, if any, can we expect to see after yet another election. Will the SDLP step aside in north Belfast and give Finucane a clear run? Can the current loyalist weapons dump withstand the tidal wave of support for Naomi Long in south Belfast. What other changes are possible throughout the six counties between now and Election Day?

When is the RHI report out?

Expected in November - so any day now unless DUP/UDA get it delayed

It'll hardly make any difference - they'll say Save the Union Vote DUP anyway and they'll return 9 or 10.

Key point is whether, they'll be needed after the election.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: bennydorano on October 29, 2019, 03:19:17 PM
Hopefully the DUP will lose their influence in Parliament no matter what, I'd rather see a Tory majority than a repeat of the last couple of years.

UK wide it should be very interesting, bound to be near impossible for Pollsters to predict with so many unknowns. It's not long ago they were talking about giving a unity remainer candidate a clear run in the PM's constituency of Uxbridge!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Taylor on October 29, 2019, 03:44:12 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on October 29, 2019, 03:19:17 PM
Hopefully the DUP will lose their influence in Parliament no matter what, I'd rather see a Tory majority than a repeat of the last couple of years.

UK wide it should be very interesting, bound to be near impossible for Pollsters to predict with so many unknowns. It's not long ago they were talking about giving a unity remainer candidate a clear run in the PM's constituency of Uxbridge!

Here in NI I suspect it will be same old same old.
Expect the next few weeks to be a barrage of 'themmuns' and saving the union. Mindnumbing.

Across the water I seriously hope Johnston gets fucked out on his ear.

The amount of shite he has said and been involved might make Trump blush but nothing is sticking unfortunately or more likely the media/papers are failing to report it sufficiently which means the masses are none the wiser
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on October 29, 2019, 04:02:56 PM
This is the bit I don't get.

A Unionist pact is to strengthen the union but a Nationalist pact is just turning the election into a sectarian headcount.

Has the Remain ship sailed in the HOC?

It's either BoJo's deal or no Deal as far as I can see.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on October 29, 2019, 04:15:23 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on October 29, 2019, 04:02:56 PM
This is the bit I don't get.

A Unionist pact is to strengthen the union but a Nationalist pact is just turning the election into a sectarian headcount.

Has the Remain ship sailed in the HOC?

It's either BoJo's deal or no Deal as far as I can see.
Remain has been polling well ahead of Leave for the last 3 years
Johnson is taking a huge risk

Ashcroft polled people in NI on Brexit back in September

97% of nationalists and 12% of Huns said it was important for the UK to Remain.

But that was before Boris Johnson shafted the DUP and put the customs border in between Ballymena and Birmingham.
https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/09/my-northern-ireland-survey-finds-the-union-on-a-knife-edge/
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: omaghjoe on October 29, 2019, 04:33:27 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 29, 2019, 04:15:23 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on October 29, 2019, 04:02:56 PM
This is the bit I don't get.

A Unionist pact is to strengthen the union but a Nationalist pact is just turning the election into a sectarian headcount.

Has the Remain ship sailed in the HOC?

It's either BoJo's deal or no Deal as far as I can see.
Remain has been polling well ahead of Leave for the last 3 years
Johnson is taking a huge risk

Ashcroft polled people in NI on Brexit back in September

97% of nationalists and 12% of Huns said it was important for the UK to Remain.

But that was before Boris Johnson shafted the DUP and put the customs border in between Ballymena and Birmingham.
https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/09/my-northern-ireland-survey-finds-the-union-on-a-knife-edge/

Which is the bit I dont really get, makes me think that they have something up their sleeve?
in saying that BoJo will have a thirst for elections as he thinks he can campaign well and he has always done well at the polls. The Tories are the leading party at the polls, they are going up against a divided bunch on the remain side, while only the Brexit party can hurt them on Brexit... or maybe the DUP will be running those ads again
Also Cummings will be leading the campaign no doubt so he will have thought about the scenarios and have the manipulative tricks ready to go
There is a difference this time in that they are the incumbents and poll leader so they will have to win from the front. Also their opponents  know all about them and should be ready... tho wouldn't count on it.

On a serious note tho will BoJo be running in Ruislip seems like a risky enough seat?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: lurganblue on October 29, 2019, 04:41:38 PM
MPs to vote for an amendment giving 16 and 17-year olds and EU nationals the vote... cant see that passing. If it does there'll be no election for ages.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Caitlin on October 29, 2019, 06:02:28 PM
The way I see it;

SDLP will run candidates in all constituencies but not put much effort in to the seats currently held by SF, North Belfast, East Belfast or the clear cut DUP seats.
SF will run in all constituencies.
UUP will run in all seats but more effort in where they have a chance- South Antrim and Upper Bann.
DUP will run in all constituencies.
Alliance and the Greens may do some trading to allow Alliance free run in East Belfast - and possibly allow Danny Kinahan and Sylvia Hermon free runs in South Antrim and North Down.

The greatest chance of a change to current position is in;
South Belfast- Claire Hanna is an excellent candidate for SDLP and if SF have any sense they will run a light campaign- the only challenge to this will be O'Muilleor's ego, which is considerable.
North Belfast-John Finucane is also an excellent candidate but won't take his seat so may not attract so much support across the board
Foyle- Colum Eastwood must be in with a chance
East Belfast- Naomi Long is an excellent candidate and has a strong chance
South Antrim- Danny Kinahan has a strong chance
North Down - Sylvia Hermon is an excellent candidate but will be under pressure
South Down- Chris Hazard will be too strong for whoever SDLP put up- pity SF don't take their seats.

In an ideal world-
DUP lose 4 seats cutting their representation to 6
SF retain all seats bar Foyle , pick up N Belfast and take their seats- total of 7 allows them to claim they're the biggest party.
SDLP claim back Foyle and South Belfast - total of 2
UUP claim back South Antrim- 1
Alliance pick up East Belfast- 1
Sylvia holds North Down- 1

Belfast has no unionist MPs
Boris has no majority
Labour do well enough but gets rid of Corbyn and elect a decent leader who understands Ireland- Conor McGinn would be good!
Lib Dems do well
Brexit party disappears
UK parliament votes to have a second referendum which ends up 70% for remain

I can but dream

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: t_mac on October 29, 2019, 06:21:21 PM
Quote from: lurganblue on October 29, 2019, 04:41:38 PM
MPs to vote for an amendment giving 16 and 17-year olds and EU nationals the vote... cant see that passing. If it does there'll be no election for ages.

Bojo said he will pull bill if this is passed.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Orior on October 29, 2019, 06:34:50 PM
Quote from: marty34 on October 29, 2019, 02:56:34 PM
Quote from: WT4E on October 29, 2019, 02:49:08 PM
Quote from: marty34 on October 29, 2019, 02:35:37 PM
Quote from: Ambrose on October 29, 2019, 02:24:04 PM
Like a dog returning to its own vomit, voters in the North look set to go to the polls for a third time this year.

As things currently stand the DUP hold 10 seats, SF 7 and Independent Unionist 1.

What changes, if any, can we expect to see after yet another election. Will the SDLP step aside in north Belfast and give Finucane a clear run? Can the current loyalist weapons dump withstand the tidal wave of support for Naomi Long in south Belfast. What other changes are possible throughout the six counties between now and Election Day?

When is the RHI report out?

Expected in November - so any day now unless DUP/UDA get it delayed

It'll hardly make any difference - they'll say Save the Union Vote DUP anyway and they'll return 9 or 10.

Key point is whether, they'll be needed after the election.

And so will the weather.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on October 29, 2019, 06:53:18 PM
Quote from: red hander on October 29, 2019, 02:44:18 PM
Would love to see the loyalist gunrunning terrorist's bike of a daughter out on her ear, that would be nice.

The problem is that you potentially have the likes of Hanna, Bradshaw, Bailey O'Muilleoir all lining up. If they all enter the field, then Little will probably get in again. I haven't voted in years but, if they get an agreed candidate out of that lot, I would vote for anyone, just to get thon bitter twisted bitch out on her arse & picking up the dole.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Harold Disgracey on October 29, 2019, 07:47:31 PM
Upper Bann could be interesting, if Doug Beattie can make inroads into Dodgy Davy Simpson there is a slight possibility John O'Dowd could take it especially if the stoops didn't run.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on October 29, 2019, 07:50:13 PM
This is from 2017 but has held up well

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/francesca-martinez/how-to-vote-general-election_b_16960884.html
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on October 29, 2019, 07:54:04 PM
Quote from: marty34 on October 29, 2019, 02:35:37 PM
Quote from: Ambrose on October 29, 2019, 02:24:04 PM
Like a dog returning to its own vomit, voters in the North look set to go to the polls for a third time this year.

As things currently stand the DUP hold 10 seats, SF 7 and Independent Unionist 1.

What changes, if any, can we expect to see after yet another election. Will the SDLP step aside in north Belfast and give Finucane a clear run? Can the current loyalist weapons dump withstand the tidal wave of support for Naomi Long in south Belfast. What other changes are possible throughout the six counties between now and Election Day?

When is the RHI report out?

In the time honoured "Yes, Minister" way, will it now be well after the election's over?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on October 29, 2019, 07:56:42 PM
Quote from: Caitlin on October 29, 2019, 06:02:28 PM
The way I see it;

SDLP will run candidates in all constituencies but not put much effort in to the seats currently held by SF, North Belfast, East Belfast or the clear cut DUP seats.
SF will run in all constituencies.
UUP will run in all seats but more effort in where they have a chance- South Antrim and Upper Bann.
DUP will run in all constituencies.
Alliance and the Greens may do some trading to allow Alliance free run in East Belfast - and possibly allow Danny Kinahan and Sylvia Hermon free runs in South Antrim and North Down.

The greatest chance of a change to current position is in;
South Belfast- Claire Hanna is an excellent candidate for SDLP and if SF have any sense they will run a light campaign- the only challenge to this will be O'Muilleor's ego, which is considerable.
North Belfast-John Finucane is also an excellent candidate but won't take his seat so may not attract so much support across the board
Foyle- Colum Eastwood must be in with a chance
East Belfast- Naomi Long is an excellent candidate and has a strong chance
South Antrim- Danny Kinahan has a strong chance
North Down - Sylvia Hermon is an excellent candidate but will be under pressure
South Down- Chris Hazard will be too strong for whoever SDLP put up- pity SF don't take their seats.

In an ideal world-
DUP lose 4 seats cutting their representation to 6
SF retain all seats bar Foyle , pick up N Belfast and take their seats- total of 7 allows them to claim they're the biggest party.
SDLP claim back Foyle and South Belfast - total of 2
UUP claim back South Antrim- 1
Alliance pick up East Belfast- 1
Sylvia holds North Down- 1

Belfast has no unionist MPs
Boris has no majority
Labour do well enough but gets rid of Corbyn and elect a decent leader who understands Ireland- Conor McGinn would be good!
Lib Dems do well
Brexit party disappears
UK parliament votes to have a second referendum which ends up 70% for remain

I can but dream
[/quote

Could this not be turned into a Ref. on Brexit if the SDLP, Alliance, SF and Greens get their act together or is there too many egoes in the room?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on October 29, 2019, 08:28:01 PM
It's doing my nut in already some Tory **** on talking about their message of "getting Brexit done, an extra 20,000 policemen and more funding for the NHS and Education"

As if it wasn't the Tories austerity that culled the police numbers and defunded the NHS and education  in the first place... also they've had a majority for 3 years and couldn't deliver Brexit how is it possible these horrible bastards are going to be returned with a majority??!!

We get destroyed for saying people who voted for Brexit are stupid well they're not exactly helping their case!!

I think Boris will get in too!!  :'(
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Armagh18 on October 29, 2019, 08:48:23 PM
Quote from: screenexile on October 29, 2019, 08:28:01 PM
It's doing my nut in already some Tory **** on talking about their message of "getting Brexit done, an extra 20,000 policemen and more funding for the NHS and Education"

As if it wasn't the Tories austerity that culled the police numbers and defunded the NHS and education  in the first place... also they've had a majority for 3 years and couldn't deliver Brexit how is it possible these horrible b**tards are going to be returned with a majority??!!

We get destroyed for saying people who voted for Brexit are stupid well they're not exactly helping their case!!

I think Boris will get in too!!  :'(
Seen a post today that the 20,000 extra police won't even cover those that will retire. The Tories are absolute vile and how anyone could vote for them is beyond me, but similar to the DUP here they'll throw out the usual crap about the other side and idiots will still vote for them, even though they are a pack of self serving fools who couldn't give a toss about the average Joe Bloggs. 
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on October 29, 2019, 09:06:50 PM
More voting cards to light the fire with.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: uimhr ocht on October 29, 2019, 09:08:34 PM
Need RHI report published in November and plenty of DUP brexit party,right wing ERG loving comments,they would loved a hardest of hard borders in Ireland if they have got away with it,pengelly,dodds,robinson,could be ousted if managed properly.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: balladmaker on October 29, 2019, 09:21:51 PM
If SF and SDLP don't get a pact going, feck the lot of them, I won't be voting ... and I've been voting SF for ever and a day .... but not anymore unless they and the SDLP get their act together and ensure some of the DUP/UDA lose their seats.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on October 29, 2019, 09:22:07 PM
Quote from: uimhr ocht on October 29, 2019, 09:08:34 PM
Need RHI report published in November and plenty of DUP brexit party,right wing ERG loving comments,they would loved a hardest of hard borders in Ireland if they have got away with it,pengelly,dodds,robinson,could be ousted if managed properly.

Most important thing is that nationalists come out and vote - I get a sense already that unionists have/are getting people on the register and I think that every election from here on in will mean that unionists  will be voting in huge numbers I think.

Pro EU parties need to sort their act out over next week and give people an option: a Pro EU candidate or the DUP.

Simple as that.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on October 29, 2019, 09:34:52 PM
2 of the previous 3 Nationalist posters not voting.
That'll only help DUPUDA  >:(
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on October 29, 2019, 10:28:56 PM
Quote from: marty34 on October 29, 2019, 09:22:07 PM
Quote from: uimhr ocht on October 29, 2019, 09:08:34 PM
Need RHI report published in November and plenty of DUP brexit party,right wing ERG loving comments,they would loved a hardest of hard borders in Ireland if they have got away with it,pengelly,dodds,robinson,could be ousted if managed properly.

Most important thing is that nationalists come out and vote - I get a sense already that unionists have/are getting people on the register and I think that every election from here on in will mean that unionists  will be voting in huge numbers I think.

Pro EU parties need to sort their act out over next week and give people an option: a Pro EU candidate or the DUP.

Simple as that.

Back to sectarian voting again to get SF in. Are people expected to forget about their pro-abortion and pro-SSM stance, as long as it means themmuns don't get in?

No thank you. SF can go f**k themselves.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: manfromdelmonte on October 29, 2019, 10:49:04 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 29, 2019, 10:28:56 PM
Quote from: marty34 on October 29, 2019, 09:22:07 PM
Quote from: uimhr ocht on October 29, 2019, 09:08:34 PM
Need RHI report published in November and plenty of DUP brexit party,right wing ERG loving comments,they would loved a hardest of hard borders in Ireland if they have got away with it,pengelly,dodds,robinson,could be ousted if managed properly.

Most important thing is that nationalists come out and vote - I get a sense already that unionists have/are getting people on the register and I think that every election from here on in will mean that unionists  will be voting in huge numbers I think.

Pro EU parties need to sort their act out over next week and give people an option: a Pro EU candidate or the DUP.

Simple as that.

Back to sectarian voting again to get SF in. Are people expected to forget about their pro-abortion and pro-SSM stance, as long as it means themmuns don't get in?

No thank you. SF can go f**k themselves.
A united Ireland means abortion and SSM
What's the big issue with those

They only affect you if you're pregnant or gay
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on October 29, 2019, 10:56:55 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on October 29, 2019, 10:49:04 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 29, 2019, 10:28:56 PM
Quote from: marty34 on October 29, 2019, 09:22:07 PM
Quote from: uimhr ocht on October 29, 2019, 09:08:34 PM
Need RHI report published in November and plenty of DUP brexit party,right wing ERG loving comments,they would loved a hardest of hard borders in Ireland if they have got away with it,pengelly,dodds,robinson,could be ousted if managed properly.

Most important thing is that nationalists come out and vote - I get a sense already that unionists have/are getting people on the register and I think that every election from here on in will mean that unionists  will be voting in huge numbers I think.

Pro EU parties need to sort their act out over next week and give people an option: a Pro EU candidate or the DUP.

Simple as that.

Back to sectarian voting again to get SF in. Are people expected to forget about their pro-abortion and pro-SSM stance, as long as it means themmuns don't get in?

No thank you. SF can go f**k themselves.
A united Ireland means abortion and SSM
What's the big issue with those

They only affect you if you're pregnant or gay

No it doesn't. They've been brought in, and there's still no sign of a United Ireland.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on October 29, 2019, 11:04:06 PM
f**k SF same auld shite anyone who comes to my door looking a vote for Westminster will be getting short shrift.

To me it's still the most bizarre situation. I can see voting for them locally and for Europe but there is literally no other reason to vote for them in Westminster than to make sure themmuns don't get in.

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on October 29, 2019, 11:05:48 PM
f**king Lib Dem's talking about gaining a majority or Jo Swinson leading a minority government... Jesus wept!!!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: The Trap on October 29, 2019, 11:06:54 PM
Elisha on spotlight would make you vote SF  :'(
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: omaghjoe on October 29, 2019, 11:07:26 PM
Quote from: screenexile on October 29, 2019, 11:04:06 PM
f**k SF same auld shite anyone who comes to my door looking a vote for Westminster will be getting short shrift.

To me it's still the most bizarre situation. I can see voting for them locally and for Europe but there is literally no other reason to vote for them in Westminster than to make sure themmuns don't get in.

Add in the fact that a large chunk of those who vote for them dont even want to be seen to be associated with them because of the ex-parliamentary connection and the thickness their candidates exhibit
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: omaghjoe on October 29, 2019, 11:46:54 PM
Quote from: screenexile on October 29, 2019, 11:05:48 PM
f**king Lib Dem's talking about gaining a majority or Jo Swinson leading a minority government... Jesus wept!!!

Sometimes I wonder is there any sense left
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on October 29, 2019, 11:49:01 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 29, 2019, 11:18:38 PM
IMO if you feel none of the candidates in your area are worth voting for, at least go to the polling station, get your ballot paper, spoil it so that it is impossible for any candidate to claim that it is a vote for them, and just politely place it in the box. You rarely see it over here, but most candidates and election officials will be alarmed at an unusually high percentage of spoiled ballot papers as it is deemed an active form of protest against the candidates, and more effective than just not bothering to vote.

Indeed, unless there is no way you're able to on the day and a postal vote isn't an option, anyone whom refuses to go out to a polling station to vote for any candidate or at least spoil the paper loses any right to complain about those whom are elected as a result.

And at least those of us who don't vote, can't be held responsible for the shitshow that unfolds in front of our eyes. Those who voted are guilty of it.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Orior on October 30, 2019, 01:13:45 AM
This place has been a shambles right from the plantation. It got worse with the formation of the Orange Order at the start of the 19th century. Every English man in charge has scratched head to try and solve the issue. They actually thought that partition fixed it with the guaranteed majority and gerrymandering. But alas, even that does not work any more.

Therefore I urge you to vote and vote nationalist. Imagine what we could do if we put fighting behind us and everyone pulled in the same direction.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on October 30, 2019, 01:26:47 AM
The Bennys of the World are responsible for sending 10 of them 17th Century yojkes to Westminster.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: t_mac on October 30, 2019, 08:22:21 AM
Quote from: screenexile on October 29, 2019, 11:05:48 PM
f**king Lib Dem's talking about gaining a majority or Jo Swinson leading a minority government... Jesus wept!!!

Woman's head is up her hole, I hope they get wiped out.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on October 30, 2019, 09:45:12 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 30, 2019, 01:26:47 AM
The Bennys of the World are responsible for sending 10 of them 17th Century yojkes to Westminster.

SF voters are responsible for sending no northern voice to Westminster.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on October 30, 2019, 10:17:30 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 30, 2019, 09:45:12 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 30, 2019, 01:26:47 AM
The Bennys of the World are responsible for sending 10 of them 17th Century yojkes to Westminster.

SF voters are responsible for sending no northern voice to Westminster.

Everybody knows that before they vote - they'd get some abuse if they took their seats in London.  It'd be a farce.

Anybody idea of what way the votes will stack up in England, Scotland and Wales re: seats for each party or is it going to be too hard to guage?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on October 30, 2019, 10:42:02 AM
Quote from: marty34 on October 30, 2019, 10:17:30 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 30, 2019, 09:45:12 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 30, 2019, 01:26:47 AM
The Bennys of the World are responsible for sending 10 of them 17th Century yojkes to Westminster.

SF voters are responsible for sending no northern voice to Westminster.

Everybody knows that before they vote - they'd get some abuse if they took their seats in London.  It'd be a farce.

Anybody idea of what way the votes will stack up in England, Scotland and Wales re: seats for each party or is it going to be too hard to guage?

If they did take their seats can you imagine the abuse they would get within parliament. Every time they'd try to speak you'd get all kinds of jeers and cheap shots thrown at them. People know when they vote for Sinn Fein in Westminster elections that they will not be taking their seat. It hardly comes are any suprise or great shock. Damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on October 30, 2019, 10:45:30 AM
I understand all that but then what is the point??

A protest vote? Sinn Fein should not be running anywhere there is a marginal seat for the DUP and should leave it to SDLP/Alliance
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on October 30, 2019, 11:16:26 AM
Quote from: marty34 on October 30, 2019, 10:17:30 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 30, 2019, 09:45:12 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 30, 2019, 01:26:47 AM
The Bennys of the World are responsible for sending 10 of them 17th Century yojkes to Westminster.

SF voters are responsible for sending no northern voice to Westminster.

Everybody knows that before they vote - they'd get some abuse if they took their seats in London.  It'd be a farce.

Anybody idea of what way the votes will stack up in England, Scotland and Wales re: seats for each party or is it going to be too hard to guage?
Scotland is a case of what seats if any the SNP don't get.
England -will the Remiam people all vote LibDem?
Wales -hopefully Plaid increase their votes and seats.
People talking about a hung Parliament again.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on October 30, 2019, 11:17:58 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 30, 2019, 11:16:26 AM
Quote from: marty34 on October 30, 2019, 10:17:30 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 30, 2019, 09:45:12 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 30, 2019, 01:26:47 AM
The Bennys of the World are responsible for sending 10 of them 17th Century yojkes to Westminster.

SF voters are responsible for sending no northern voice to Westminster.

Everybody knows that before they vote - they'd get some abuse if they took their seats in London.  It'd be a farce.

Anybody idea of what way the votes will stack up in England, Scotland and Wales re: seats for each party or is it going to be too hard to guage?
Scotland is a case of what seats if any the SNP don't get.
England -will the Remiam people all vote LibDem?
Wales -hopefully Plaid increase their votes and seats.
People talking about a hung Parliament again.

Sounds like Tories might leave the Brexit party alone in the Labour/Leave seats in the North . . .
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on October 30, 2019, 11:21:53 AM
Quote from: screenexile on October 30, 2019, 10:45:30 AM
I understand all that but then what is the point??

A protest vote? Sinn Fein should not be running anywhere there is a marginal seat for the DUP and should leave it to SDLP/Alliance

I would say the way it works is - whoever is currently in that seat should be first choice.  That'd only be fair.

Otherwise then share them out on a pro-rata basis.  Parties, and the 'MPs' are very egotistical and won't back down, therefore unless, pro EU parties have a pact, the DUP will take the seats.

E.g. Let Alliance stand in EB with no SDLP/SF candidates and advise their voters accordingly.

Time for real leadership!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on October 30, 2019, 11:52:23 AM
Quote from: marty34 on October 30, 2019, 10:17:30 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 30, 2019, 09:45:12 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 30, 2019, 01:26:47 AM
The Bennys of the World are responsible for sending 10 of them 17th Century yojkes to Westminster.

SF voters are responsible for sending no northern voice to Westminster.

Everybody knows that before they vote - they'd get some abuse if they took their seats in London.  It'd be a farce.

Anybody idea of what way the votes will stack up in England, Scotland and Wales re: seats for each party or is it going to be too hard to guage?

It's already a farce. They go to the bother of running for election, then don't take their seats.

Do SF sound any more ridiculous spouting their shite outside Westminster than they would, in it?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyHarp on October 30, 2019, 11:59:57 AM
With respect to the election in Britain, the Lib Dem argument is a strange one. Clearly they are trying to go for the extreme on the remain side, with the one issue revoke message, which may pick up a few seats for them which could put them in a powerful position of holding the sway of power. But if they end up in a coalition and don't deliver revoke then its university fees all over again for them and their credibility is gone again with those that voted for them.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on October 30, 2019, 12:12:19 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on October 30, 2019, 11:59:57 AM
With respect to the election in Britain, the Lib Dem argument is a strange one. Clearly they are trying to go for the extreme on the remain side, with the one issue revoke message, which may pick up a few seats for them which could put them in a powerful position of holding the sway of power. But if they end up in a coalition and don't deliver revoke then its university fees all over again for them and their credibility is gone again with those that voted for them.

Remaining isn't extreme. . . it's the status quo!!!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Chief on October 30, 2019, 12:17:44 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 30, 2019, 11:52:23 AM
Quote from: marty34 on October 30, 2019, 10:17:30 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 30, 2019, 09:45:12 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 30, 2019, 01:26:47 AM
The Bennys of the World are responsible for sending 10 of them 17th Century yojkes to Westminster.

SF voters are responsible for sending no northern voice to Westminster.

Everybody knows that before they vote - they'd get some abuse if they took their seats in London.  It'd be a farce.

Anybody idea of what way the votes will stack up in England, Scotland and Wales re: seats for each party or is it going to be too hard to guage?

It's already a farce. They go to the bother of running for election, then don't take their seats.

Do SF sound any more ridiculous spouting their shite outside Westminster than they would, in it?

I'm no lover of SF but your point is tiresome. Abstentionism from Westminster has been a basic principle of "traditional" republicanism for nearly 100 years now, therefore the electorate know exactly what they are doing & what they are getting when they cast their vote for an abstentionist party. The Brexit context does not change this.

If SF's "ridiculous" position of abstentionism appeals to voters more than every other party who actually want to take their seat, then the fault lies with all the other parties, not SF.

Of course SF will take every electoral opportunity to illustrate their mandate.

If other parties can't demonstrate why they would be more effective than a party that doesn't even show up, then they don't deserve to be elected.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on October 30, 2019, 12:26:51 PM
The idea that O'Connell and Parnell should have sat on their arses at home 150-200 years ago rather than go to the House of Commons and achieve real and lasting results for the Irish people is beyond parody.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on October 30, 2019, 12:29:54 PM
Quote from: Chief on October 30, 2019, 12:17:44 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 30, 2019, 11:52:23 AM
Quote from: marty34 on October 30, 2019, 10:17:30 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 30, 2019, 09:45:12 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 30, 2019, 01:26:47 AM
The Bennys of the World are responsible for sending 10 of them 17th Century yojkes to Westminster.

SF voters are responsible for sending no northern voice to Westminster.

Everybody knows that before they vote - they'd get some abuse if they took their seats in London.  It'd be a farce.

Anybody idea of what way the votes will stack up in England, Scotland and Wales re: seats for each party or is it going to be too hard to guage?

It's already a farce. They go to the bother of running for election, then don't take their seats.

Do SF sound any more ridiculous spouting their shite outside Westminster than they would, in it?

I'm no lover of SF but your point is tiresome. Abstentionism from Westminster has been a basic principle of "traditional" republicanism for nearly 100 years now, therefore the electorate know exactly what they are doing & what they are getting when they cast their vote for an abstentionist party. The Brexit context does not change this.

If SF's "ridiculous" position of abstentionism appeals to voters more than every other party who actually want to take their seat, then the fault lies with all the other parties, not SF.

Of course SF will take every electoral opportunity to illustrate their mandate.

If other parties can't demonstrate why they would be more effective than a party that doesn't even show up, then they don't deserve to be elected.

Yes, but you can't vote for SF, then bitch and moan because the DUP are behaving like a bunch of tits in Westminster.

If you're going to vote, then vote for someone who will at least nullify the DUP in Westminster.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on October 30, 2019, 12:47:13 PM
Quote from: hardstation on October 30, 2019, 12:37:18 PM
I thought people were laughing at the DUP in Westminster. Who can we vote for that will nullify the DUP in Westminster? What is there to nullify?

Their voting, for a start.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyHarp on October 30, 2019, 01:15:03 PM
Quote from: screenexile on October 30, 2019, 12:12:19 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on October 30, 2019, 11:59:57 AM
With respect to the election in Britain, the Lib Dem argument is a strange one. Clearly they are trying to go for the extreme on the remain side, with the one issue revoke message, which may pick up a few seats for them which could put them in a powerful position of holding the sway of power. But if they end up in a coalition and don't deliver revoke then its university fees all over again for them and their credibility is gone again with those that voted for them.

Remaining isn't extreme. . . it's the status quo!!!

Remaining isn't extreme, revoking without a referendum is.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on October 30, 2019, 01:44:55 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 30, 2019, 12:29:54 PM
Quote from: Chief on October 30, 2019, 12:17:44 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 30, 2019, 11:52:23 AM
Quote from: marty34 on October 30, 2019, 10:17:30 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 30, 2019, 09:45:12 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 30, 2019, 01:26:47 AM
The Bennys of the World are responsible for sending 10 of them 17th Century yojkes to Westminster.

SF voters are responsible for sending no northern voice to Westminster.

Everybody knows that before they vote - they'd get some abuse if they took their seats in London.  It'd be a farce.

Anybody idea of what way the votes will stack up in England, Scotland and Wales re: seats for each party or is it going to be too hard to guage?

It's already a farce. They go to the bother of running for election, then don't take their seats.

Do SF sound any more ridiculous spouting their shite outside Westminster than they would, in it?

I'm no lover of SF but your point is tiresome. Abstentionism from Westminster has been a basic principle of "traditional" republicanism for nearly 100 years now, therefore the electorate know exactly what they are doing & what they are getting when they cast their vote for an abstentionist party. The Brexit context does not change this.

If SF's "ridiculous" position of abstentionism appeals to voters more than every other party who actually want to take their seat, then the fault lies with all the other parties, not SF.

Of course SF will take every electoral opportunity to illustrate their mandate.

If other parties can't demonstrate why they would be more effective than a party that doesn't even show up, then they don't deserve to be elected.

Yes, but you can't vote for SF, then bitch and moan because the DUP are behaving like a bunch of tits in Westminster.

If you're going to vote, then vote for someone who will at least nullify the DUP in Westminster.

One point I agree with SF is no matter if it was 100% vote against Brexit in the north, it'd have made no difference at all.

Irish lives do not matter to London and their government.
The DUP were used , then turfed under the bus.  Anybody who think London care for Irish people and businesses etc, then more fool them.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Orior on October 30, 2019, 01:47:22 PM
Quote from: five points on October 30, 2019, 12:26:51 PM
The idea that O'Connell and Parnell should have sat on their arses at home 150-200 years ago rather than go to the House of Commons and achieve real and lasting results for the Irish people is beyond parody.

The english didn't want catholic emancipation. That battle was fought on two fronts - in westminster and with violence at home (ribbon men, white boys etc etc)

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on October 30, 2019, 02:09:05 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 30, 2019, 11:16:26 AM
Quote from: marty34 on October 30, 2019, 10:17:30 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 30, 2019, 09:45:12 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 30, 2019, 01:26:47 AM
The Bennys of the World are responsible for sending 10 of them 17th Century yojkes to Westminster.

SF voters are responsible for sending no northern voice to Westminster.

Everybody knows that before they vote - they'd get some abuse if they took their seats in London.  It'd be a farce.

Anybody idea of what way the votes will stack up in England, Scotland and Wales re: seats for each party or is it going to be too hard to guage?
Scotland is a case of what seats if any the SNP don't get.
England -will the Remiam people all vote LibDem?
Wales -hopefully Plaid increase their votes and seats.
People talking about a hung Parliament again.

If it's a majority made up of Labour/Lib Dem/SNP thery can legislate for a second referendum
If the Tories lose Brexit is goosed.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on October 30, 2019, 02:17:12 PM
They probably won't lose though.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on October 30, 2019, 02:30:56 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on October 30, 2019, 02:17:12 PM
They probably won't lose though.
They are going to lose 8 at least in Scotland
10 of the rebels have been readmitted/21 Some are retiring . Say 5 lost
The Libdems should pick up a few in SW England
A lot of women hate Boris Johnson.
#SeniorHurling
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on October 30, 2019, 06:23:21 PM
Quote from: marty34 on October 30, 2019, 01:44:55 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 30, 2019, 12:29:54 PM
Quote from: Chief on October 30, 2019, 12:17:44 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 30, 2019, 11:52:23 AM
Quote from: marty34 on October 30, 2019, 10:17:30 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 30, 2019, 09:45:12 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 30, 2019, 01:26:47 AM
The Bennys of the World are responsible for sending 10 of them 17th Century yojkes to Westminster.

SF voters are responsible for sending no northern voice to Westminster.

Everybody knows that before they vote - they'd get some abuse if they took their seats in London.  It'd be a farce.

Anybody idea of what way the votes will stack up in England, Scotland and Wales re: seats for each party or is it going to be too hard to guage?

It's already a farce. They go to the bother of running for election, then don't take their seats.

Do SF sound any more ridiculous spouting their shite outside Westminster than they would, in it?

I'm no lover of SF but your point is tiresome. Abstentionism from Westminster has been a basic principle of "traditional" republicanism for nearly 100 years now, therefore the electorate know exactly what they are doing & what they are getting when they cast their vote for an abstentionist party. The Brexit context does not change this.

If SF's "ridiculous" position of abstentionism appeals to voters more than every other party who actually want to take their seat, then the fault lies with all the other parties, not SF.

Of course SF will take every electoral opportunity to illustrate their mandate.

If other parties can't demonstrate why they would be more effective than a party that doesn't even show up, then they don't deserve to be elected.

Yes, but you can't vote for SF, then bitch and moan because the DUP are behaving like a bunch of tits in Westminster.

If you're going to vote, then vote for someone who will at least nullify the DUP in Westminster.

One point I agree with SF is no matter if it was 100% vote against Brexit in the north, it'd have made no difference at all.

Irish lives do not matter to London and their government.
The DUP were used , then turfed under the bus.  Anybody who think London care for Irish people and businesses etc, then more fool them.

English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish people do not matter to London.

There is no Irish voice in Westminster (unionists are British). There are Brexit issues here, legacy, economy etc. Why don't SF pull out, and get behind SDLP, who will sit in Westminster? At least there will be an Irish nationalist voice fighting for people. God knows what families of legacy issues, in particular, think of them.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on October 31, 2019, 12:36:16 PM
reading the various hopes and predictions of our friends based in ulster, what staggers me is that most of you are blind to the bigger picture.
as a southerner, who does hope for a United Ireland in my lifetime, Brexit, by accident, is the best chance of that happening.

There may be short term pain with Brexit, but if Boris manages to scramble a win in this election and get his deal through, then unless you are brain dead, what then happens is that Scotland with close to 85% of MPs from the SNP will be gagging for another independence referendum and overtime as is becoming evident, the little Englanders could not care less about NI, and that will open the door to the Border Poll.

Has it not dawned on Northern Nationalists, that in the past week, it has finally dawned on the DUPers and loyalists that Brexit could spell the end of the union, and now as we have seen this week, especially the guy on the Spotlight Special the other night, spouting the narrative that the "Union is more important than Brexit".

If you want a status quo of the north for another 50 years, then continue to pray for some mechanism that overturns Brexit.

If you wish see to the promised land of a United Ireland, then pray that Boris wins enough seats to force through the deal, which in turn sets in train the disintegration of the union.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Taylor on October 31, 2019, 12:51:29 PM
Quote from: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on October 31, 2019, 12:36:16 PM
reading the various hopes and predictions of our friends based in ulster, what staggers me is that most of you are blind to the bigger picture.
as a southerner, who does hope for a United Ireland in my lifetime, Brexit, by accident, is the best chance of that happening.

There may be short term pain with Brexit, but if Boris manages to scramble a win in this election and get his deal through, then unless you are brain dead, what then happens is that Scotland with close to 85% of MPs from the SNP will be gagging for another independence referendum and overtime as is becoming evident, the little Englanders could not care less about NI, and that will open the door to the Border Poll.

Has it not dawned on Northern Nationalists, that in the past week, it has finally dawned on the DUPers and loyalists that Brexit could spell the end of the union, and now as we have seen this week, especially the guy on the Spotlight Special the other night, spouting the narrative that the "Union is more important than Brexit".

If you want a status quo of the north for another 50 years, then continue to pray for some mechanism that overturns Brexit.

If you wish see to the promised land of a United Ireland, then pray that Boris wins enough seats to force through the deal, which in turn sets in train the disintegration of the union.

I see your point about it being the first steps to a UI which would be the end goal but my immediate concern would be the short term pain you speak about.
Its ok to sit back and say that when it wont duly affect you - NI will be a complete mess, economically speaking, with many Brexit outcomes (hard or not).

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: WT4E on October 31, 2019, 12:55:31 PM
If I was a voting in a area where the seat was up for grabs id be changing my vote from SF to SDLP this time.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Franko on October 31, 2019, 01:10:45 PM
Quote from: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on October 31, 2019, 12:36:16 PM
reading the various hopes and predictions of our friends based in ulster, what staggers me is that most of you are blind to the bigger picture.
as a southerner, who does hope for a United Ireland in my lifetime, Brexit, by accident, is the best chance of that happening.

There may be short term pain with Brexit, but if Boris manages to scramble a win in this election and get his deal through, then unless you are brain dead, what then happens is that Scotland with close to 85% of MPs from the SNP will be gagging for another independence referendum and overtime as is becoming evident, the little Englanders could not care less about NI, and that will open the door to the Border Poll.

Has it not dawned on Northern Nationalists, that in the past week, it has finally dawned on the DUPers and loyalists that Brexit could spell the end of the union, and now as we have seen this week, especially the guy on the Spotlight Special the other night, spouting the narrative that the "Union is more important than Brexit".

If you want a status quo of the north for another 50 years, then continue to pray for some mechanism that overturns Brexit.

If you wish see to the promised land of a United Ireland, then pray that Boris wins enough seats to force through the deal, which in turn sets in train the disintegration of the union.

The fact that Brexit was a a back door to a UI dawned on the nationalist population of the 6 counties a very long time ago. Before the referendum.  Believe me, we are all acutely aware of it.  The problem is the a border poll and a UI is essentially in the gift of the British gov't and people are not prepared to be pauperised for decade(s) until they finally accede to the the demands for it.

Are people like you aware of the demographic trends in the 6 counties?  If so, you should be aware of what most nationalists here are - a UI is very much achievable in the medium term - without decimating the (already poor) economy.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rois on October 31, 2019, 01:15:05 PM
Quote from: WT4E on October 31, 2019, 12:55:31 PM
If I was a voting in a area where the seat was up for grabs id be changing my vote from SF to SDLP this time.
I'm in North Belfast where the SDLP has no hope, so switching my vote to SF is the only way to have a chance of unseating Dodds.  If it was Alliance in strong second, I'd switch to them instead.  As it is, I'd rather have no one than Dodds. 
Extraordinary times, extraordinary measures. 
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on October 31, 2019, 01:18:34 PM
Taylor and Frank.....what you are saying, I completely understand...I trade with companies in the north and travel frequently up there, so I am no stranger to reality.
However, your suggestion, that the short term pain would be hard to stomach, rings alarms bells with me......and those alarms are in the event of a border poll, just as we saw play out in Scotland, a percentage of Northern Caths/Nationalists, especially civil servants, may fear jumping from a safe job environment into the unknown of a UI and the leakage of the 5 to 7% could be the difference between the Union staying or a UI....in other words too many are selfish voters and are happy to ignore the bigger picture.

The smart arses in the DUP have walked into their own Brexit trap and it would be a dreadful irony if the nationalist votes(anti Brexit) proved to be the release mechanism for the DUPers.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Taylor on October 31, 2019, 01:26:56 PM
Quote from: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on October 31, 2019, 01:18:34 PM
Taylor and Frank.....what you are saying, I completely understand...I trade with companies in the north and travel frequently up there, so I am no stranger to reality.
However, your suggestion, that the short term pain would be hard to stomach, rings alarms bells with me......and those alarms are in the event of a border poll, just as we saw play out in Scotland, a percentage of Northern Caths/Nationalists, especially civil servants, may fear jumping from a safe job environment into the unknown of a UI and the leakage of the 5 to 7% could be the difference between the Union staying or a UI....in other words too many are selfish voters and are happy to ignore the bigger picture.

The smart arses in the DUP have walked into their own Brexit trap and it would be a dreadful irony if the nationalist votes(anti Brexit) proved to be the release mechanism for the DUPers.

There is nothing I hate more than the DUP but consider this..........

Brexit happens and the NI economy is decimated - you say this will be short term pain. Fair enough.

Say 5/10/15 years of an economy going down the shitter - is that worth the pain to get a UI?
Tough question for some considering during those 5/10/15 years many will struggle to put bread on the table.
A romantic view of a UI is great but the reality will be different for many families in order to get there.

Secondly, if a UI is on the cards and is going to happen one can only imagine the amount of innocent catholics that will suffer at the hands of 'themmuns' in NI.

Its not inevitable but it is a distinct possibility that the troubles or at least a version of them will return as we move towards a UI
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on October 31, 2019, 01:50:13 PM
Quote from: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on October 31, 2019, 12:36:16 PM
reading the various hopes and predictions of our friends based in ulster, what staggers me is that most of you are blind to the bigger picture.
as a southerner, who does hope for a United Ireland in my lifetime, Brexit, by accident, is the best chance of that happening.

There may be short term pain with Brexit, but if Boris manages to scramble a win in this election and get his deal through, then unless you are brain dead, what then happens is that Scotland with close to 85% of MPs from the SNP will be gagging for another independence referendum and overtime as is becoming evident, the little Englanders could not care less about NI, and that will open the door to the Border Poll.

Has it not dawned on Northern Nationalists, that in the past week, it has finally dawned on the DUPers and loyalists that Brexit could spell the end of the union, and now as we have seen this week, especially the guy on the Spotlight Special the other night, spouting the narrative that the "Union is more important than Brexit".

If you want a status quo of the north for another 50 years, then continue to pray for some mechanism that overturns Brexit.

If you wish see to the promised land of a United Ireland, then pray that Boris wins enough seats to force through the deal, which in turn sets in train the disintegration of the union.

This promised land is in your head.

First, the Brits have to agree to a border poll. And when will they admit there's sufficient support for a UI? They'll just keep putting it off again and again.

If a UI arrives, do you think it'll be all plain sailing? Economy, jobs, wages, healthcare etc... all tricky issues. Plus, you'll have loyalist violence to deal with, you can be certain of that. Then you have the flag/anthem issues, and of course the Dublin government bending over backwards for the unionists (who I think will be very well treated in a UI. Probably more so than in the UK).
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on October 31, 2019, 03:06:27 PM
lads the idea of a UI may be pie in the sky, nonetheless, one must start examining likely outcomes in the event materialising.

firstly, you must acknowledge that for Unionists, the loyal Union is everything in their life, the DNA profile is all Union, and nothing, socially or economically trumps the Union loyalty.  Yes, the Unionists are the descendants of planters from 250 odd years ago, unfortunately they are now here in NI for 6,7 or 8 family generations and bedded in and in most cases, they may have lost contact with their Scottish origins. In other words, they have no where to go for comfort.

If a Border Poll was conducted, one would fancy that the Irish Government would engineer a position in which both the EU & the USA were vested parties/safeguarders of the result. 
If that poll resulted in a decision in favour of a UI, then as suggested by Benny, there would be loyalist outrage and violence and plenty of innocent victims.
I would expect that the UK parliament would respect the result, and what could well happen is that either the EU(who will shortly have an EU army) or the US would step in as a peace keeping force to stem the violence....the irony here, being that the Brit army of the 70s gets replaced by a green leaning army.
What happens on the unionist front? so they all relocate and concentrate in North Down, Lisburn, Ballymena, and we end up with a kind of Cyprus arrangement?...in that like the Turks in Cyprus, they would never accept a Dublin government, yet refuse to leave their loyalist ghettos.

In the "you got to break eggs to make an omelette", when geographic territory changes, there are winners and losers in the process....Yugoslavia disintegrated quickly, yet Croatia and Slovenia rapidly got on their feet.  If a UI emerged, I would fancy on the economic front, the EU & Us lend significant support to help and that aspect may quell teething troubles.

You may not agree with the above airy fairy forecast, if you don't, perhaps you might lay out your vision for how the UI unfolds if a positive votes results from a poll, warts and all.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on October 31, 2019, 03:13:09 PM
The new Anthem and new Flag of the New State ( a Confederation with 2 Home Rule areas -6 and 26 Cos) will be the easiest problem to sort out.
The day Scotland leaves the vile Union will be the first step.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on October 31, 2019, 03:30:14 PM
Quote from: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on October 31, 2019, 12:36:16 PM
reading the various hopes and predictions of our friends based in ulster, what staggers me is that most of you are blind to the bigger picture.
as a southerner, who does hope for a United Ireland in my lifetime, Brexit, by accident, is the best chance of that happening.

There may be short term pain with Brexit, but if Boris manages to scramble a win in this election and get his deal through, then unless you are brain dead, what then happens is that Scotland with close to 85% of MPs from the SNP will be gagging for another independence referendum and overtime as is becoming evident, the little Englanders could not care less about NI, and that will open the door to the Border Poll.

Has it not dawned on Northern Nationalists, that in the past week, it has finally dawned on the DUPers and loyalists that Brexit could spell the end of the union, and now as we have seen this week, especially the guy on the Spotlight Special the other night, spouting the narrative that the "Union is more important than Brexit".

If you want a status quo of the north for another 50 years, then continue to pray for some mechanism that overturns Brexit.

If you wish see to the promised land of a United Ireland, then pray that Boris wins enough seats to force through the deal, which in turn sets in train the disintegration of the union.
The NI economy is goosed so the longer it goes on the more likely a UI is. Throw in demographics. NI is doomed.

After the British government's partition of Ireland in 1920-21, the areas in and around Belfast in the north produced about 80 per cent of the whole island's industrial output. Now the Republic's output is 10 times greater than Northern Ireland's.

https://www.esri.ie/system/files/publications/OPEA173.pdf

page 6

Munster and Leinster GDP per head is about twice that of NI and Border, Midlands,  West

Table 1: Per capita GDP in US dollars, constant 2010 prices, constant PPP 2000 2014

RoI: Southern & Eastern        55,991
UK: Northern Ireland             28,159
RoI: Border, Midlands West    27,369

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyHarp on October 31, 2019, 04:21:42 PM
Quote from: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on October 31, 2019, 12:36:16 PM
reading the various hopes and predictions of our friends based in ulster, what staggers me is that most of you are blind to the bigger picture.
as a southerner, who does hope for a United Ireland in my lifetime, Brexit, by accident, is the best chance of that happening.

There may be short term pain with Brexit, but if Boris manages to scramble a win in this election and get his deal through, then unless you are brain dead, what then happens is that Scotland with close to 85% of MPs from the SNP will be gagging for another independence referendum and overtime as is becoming evident, the little Englanders could not care less about NI, and that will open the door to the Border Poll.

Has it not dawned on Northern Nationalists, that in the past week, it has finally dawned on the DUPers and loyalists that Brexit could spell the end of the union, and now as we have seen this week, especially the guy on the Spotlight Special the other night, spouting the narrative that the "Union is more important than Brexit".

If you want a status quo of the north for another 50 years, then continue to pray for some mechanism that overturns Brexit.

If you wish see to the promised land of a United Ireland, then pray that Boris wins enough seats to force through the deal, which in turn sets in train the disintegration of the union.

Hard to beat being patronised to by a "southerner".
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on October 31, 2019, 05:07:26 PM
There's a to-do list, and it needs to be completed in roughly this order:

1 - Resolve the parades issue. Get the residents and the Orange Order to sit down and agree on the terms under which Orange parades could be made welcome in catholic areas, because re-routing parades and avoiding each other like a divorced couple still living in the same house is not a long term solution. (OO to drop the sectarianism, drop the paranoia about 'popery,' drop the political activism, ban paramilitary bands from events, get involved in cross-community outreach, and reposition parades as historical commemorations rather than triumphalist celebrations. In return, residents won't object to the OO still being open to Protestants only, and won't object to a single union jack carried on a pole with a bit of dignity. For previously contentious parades, perform a ceremony in the middle of it where a protestant clergyman leading the parade shakes hands with a waiting catholic priest, exchanges gifts, or makes some sort of gesture of friendship. For the Apprentice Boys in the Lower Ormeau, lay a wreath at the Sean Graham bookies.)

2 - Desegregate the education system. Catholic church wants to control schools? Fine. Let them pay for it from the church collection basket, but taxpayer funding for the CCMS needs to be phased out. "Faith formation" (or indoctrination/brainwashing to give it a more accurate title) can be done on the church's own time and at their own expense. Sure the pews are half empty these days. One more generation will wrap it up.

3 - Desegregate housing. For "interface" areas where there are currently high walls and fences, is there some way the area could be re-architected with commercial development that's accessible to both sides? Replace walls with a space in which prods and taigs can mingle safely?

4 - Reform the southern state so that the catholic church is booted out of the education and health systems. If vital public services are being provided by churches and voluntary organizations it's a sign of a weak state. Strengthen the state.

5 - Give it a few years for desegregation in the north to take effect, for some heat to be taken out of the environment, and for the current generation of bigoted unionist politicians to retire and hopefully be replaced by more reasonable youngsters.

6 - Come up with some realistic and detailed proposals for how a UI would look. Will a state called NI continue to exist as a Special Administrative Region like Hong Kong and Macau after the handover to China? Could Stormont be retained in its present form with its convoluted power-sharing checks and balances to reassure unionists that they won't get a taste of their own "catholics need not apply" medicine?

7 - When everyone has calmed down, and it looks like reunification can be achieved peacefully and with a decent consensus in favour of it, only then have a border poll.

The shinners, on the other hand, seem to want to do it this way:

1 - Sit on your asses and allow the UK to crash out of the EU

2 - Have a border poll amid all the chaos of Brexit

If we do it the shinner way, it'd be a recipe for an entirely preventable civil war. A border poll at this stage, with the north in its current state, would unleash forces that nobody can control regardless of the outcome. The Brexit disaster has shown us that big constitutional shocks are not to be taken lightly. The drawing of national borders is a delicate matter. We should be a lot more careful about it than the Brits were in the 1920s.

SF are a pro-united Ireland party. But when it comes to the mechanics of achieving unity, they're not very sophisticated in the way they think about it. A lot of them still seem to be stuck in the 1980s mindset of moaning about how unfairly treated they are by the evil Brits, and not much thought is given to the unionists. They still don't seem to have gotten it into their heads that persuading the moderate end of unionism is the key to Irish unity, and the Brits are just bystanders who would be happy to let go of the place. It's like Peter Brooke's "selfish strategic or economic interest" speech never happened. SF seems to think that if they moan loudly enough about how mean the Brits are, and if we "demand" it loudly enough, the Brits will give the north back. They need to grow up.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on October 31, 2019, 05:17:57 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on October 31, 2019, 05:07:26 PM

2 - Desegregate the education system. Catholic church wants to control schools? Fine. Let them pay for it from the church collection basket, but taxpayer funding for the CCMS needs to be phased out. "Faith formation" (or indoctrination/brainwashing to give it a more accurate title) can be done on the church's own time and at their own expense. Sure the pews are half empty these days. One more generation will wrap it up.
The NI public finances are bust already. Building a whole new set of schools would be ruinous.

Quote

3 - Desegregate housing. For "interface" areas where there are currently high walls and fences, is there some way the area could be re-architected with commercial development that's accessible to both sides? Replace walls with a space in which prods and taigs can mingle safely?
The phenomenon of "Catholic" and "Protestant" rural towns and villages is worse and more intractable than in the cities. At least city dwellers living in heterogenous zones get to meet and share facilities with "the other side" in city centres. That happens a lot less in the sticks.

Quote
4 - Reform the southern state so that the catholic church is booted out of the education and health systems. If vital public services are being provided by churches and voluntary organizations it's a sign of a weak state. Strengthen the state.
Its actually voluntary committees, not groups of priests and bishops, who run hospitals and schools here. Kick them out and you'll be left with the same politicians who have run our public services into the ground.

Quote
5 - Give it a few years for desegregation in the north to take effect, for some heat to be taken out of the environment, and for the current generation of bigoted unionist politicians to retire and hopefully be replaced by more reasonable youngsters.
No mention of bigoted republican politicians. The idea that all these on both sides will disappear in a few years is laughable.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on October 31, 2019, 05:24:36 PM
Quote from: five points on October 31, 2019, 05:17:57 PM
The NI public finances are bust already. Building a whole new set of schools would be ruinous.

Decrease funding to the CCMS, increase funding to the integrated sector. Same amount of money.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on October 31, 2019, 05:25:51 PM
Quote from: five points on October 31, 2019, 05:17:57 PM
No mention of bigoted republican politicians.

Such as...?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on October 31, 2019, 05:27:10 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on October 31, 2019, 05:24:36 PM
Quote from: five points on October 31, 2019, 05:17:57 PM
The NI public finances are bust already. Building a whole new set of schools would be ruinous.

Decrease funding to the CCMS, increase funding to the integrated sector. Same amount of money.

And buy or confiscate the existing building stock?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on October 31, 2019, 05:27:43 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on October 31, 2019, 05:25:51 PM
Quote from: five points on October 31, 2019, 05:17:57 PM
No mention of bigoted republican politicians.

Such as...?

That a serious question?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on October 31, 2019, 05:36:59 PM
Many Unionists would probably get on with a lot of middle class Dubs. The differences are not necessarily as big as people think.
Not so sure about wee Loyalists.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on October 31, 2019, 05:39:25 PM
Trump going on Farage's show to slate Corbyn and tell everyone how great Boris is . . . I'm pretty sure this is playing right into Corbyn's hands!!!

Trump doesn't have the same pull in the UK as he has in the midwest.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on October 31, 2019, 05:58:33 PM
Quote from: five points on October 31, 2019, 05:27:43 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on October 31, 2019, 05:25:51 PM
Quote from: five points on October 31, 2019, 05:17:57 PM
No mention of bigoted republican politicians.

Such as...?

That a serious question?

Yes. Go right ahead. Name one bigoted Republican politician from a major political party ...
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on October 31, 2019, 06:19:31 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on October 31, 2019, 05:58:33 PM
Quote from: five points on October 31, 2019, 05:27:43 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on October 31, 2019, 05:25:51 PM
Quote from: five points on October 31, 2019, 05:17:57 PM
No mention of bigoted republican politicians.

Such as...?

That a serious question?

Yes. Go right ahead. Name one bigoted Republican politician from a major political party ...

I will in my nelly expose myself to the libel laws. You can do your own research. It ain't hard.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: delgany on October 31, 2019, 06:26:23 PM
Quote from: five points on October 31, 2019, 05:27:10 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on October 31, 2019, 05:24:36 PM
Quote from: five points on October 31, 2019, 05:17:57 PM
The NI public finances are bust already. Building a whole new set of schools would be ruinous.

Decrease funding to the CCMS, increase funding to the integrated sector. Same amount of money.

And buy or confiscate the existing building stock?

The significant majority of catholic maintained (CCMS) schools are over 60 years old , falling apart , in desperate need of modernisation , so not worth buying or confiscating ( of the church ,who technical own the land and buildings)

They were subject to years of neglect by the Education Authorities at all levels.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on October 31, 2019, 06:41:37 PM
Quote from: five points on October 31, 2019, 06:19:31 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on October 31, 2019, 05:58:33 PM
Quote from: five points on October 31, 2019, 05:27:43 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on October 31, 2019, 05:25:51 PM
Quote from: five points on October 31, 2019, 05:17:57 PM
No mention of bigoted republican politicians.

Such as...?

That a serious question?

Yes. Go right ahead. Name one bigoted Republican politician from a major political party ...

I will in my nelly expose myself to the libel laws. You can do your own research. It ain't hard.

Ha! Good excuse with the libel thing, terrible follow-up by asking me to back up your argument for you.

I accept your concession of the point. Unionist politicians are far more bigoted than republicans/nationalists.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on October 31, 2019, 09:54:16 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1
Ha! Good excuse with the libel thing, terrible follow-up by asking me to back up your argument for you.

I accept your concession of the point. Unionist politicians are far more bigoted than republicans/nationalists.

So you accept there are bigoted republican politicians. Which means your barb about my exposure to the libel laws is moot.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on November 01, 2019, 03:47:49 AM
Quote from: five points on October 31, 2019, 09:54:16 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1
Ha! Good excuse with the libel thing, terrible follow-up by asking me to back up your argument for you.

I accept your concession of the point. Unionist politicians are far more bigoted than republicans/nationalists.

So you accept there are bigoted republican politicians. Which means your barb about my exposure to the libel laws is moot.

Name one.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 01, 2019, 08:31:40 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 01, 2019, 03:47:49 AM
Quote from: five points on October 31, 2019, 09:54:16 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1
Ha! Good excuse with the libel thing, terrible follow-up by asking me to back up your argument for you.

I accept your concession of the point. Unionist politicians are far more bigoted than republicans/nationalists.

So you accept there are bigoted republican politicians. Which means your barb about my exposure to the libel laws is moot.

Name one.

Not for you I most definitely won't.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trileacman on November 01, 2019, 10:02:47 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 01, 2019, 03:47:49 AM
Quote from: five points on October 31, 2019, 09:54:16 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1
Ha! Good excuse with the libel thing, terrible follow-up by asking me to back up your argument for you.

I accept your concession of the point. Unionist politicians are far more bigoted than republicans/nationalists.

So you accept there are bigoted republican politicians. Which means your barb about my exposure to the libel laws is moot.

Name one.

Anderson
Flanagan
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 01, 2019, 10:05:12 AM
There are bigots on both sides. It's very blinkered, and naive,  to think otherwise.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 01, 2019, 10:50:27 AM
It will be interesting to see how the SDLP get on. SF's abstentionism may be fine for business as usual but there is too much important stuff happening now to justify it.
Say the Tories win the election. There is going to be a customs border between NI and GB. That will increase grocery prices in Andersonstown.
Austerity has hammered Creggan. Brexit will mean even more austerity.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: snoopdog on November 01, 2019, 12:10:46 PM
Its time for both communities to go back to the  more moderate . The nationalist community as stated above now need a voice in westminister . And the unionists need a more moderate party who actually want to get involved in govt. The need for SDLP the UUP and Alliance has never been greater.  The Sdlp have some good people like  Hanna, Mallon and Eastwood. Who actually care about people.  Sinn Fein i believe would be delighted with a no deal brexit as it would bring a UI closer but people would be crippled for years in the north. And Sinn Fein in a united Ireland would be irrelevant as a party.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trileacman on November 01, 2019, 12:25:18 PM
Looking at the figures Boris will win this election by a very large margin.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: drillsergeant on November 01, 2019, 12:28:40 PM
Key Battleground of South Belfast:

Brexit Referendum 2016:
Total electorate: 66,664
Turnout: 44,583 (66.9%), 3/18.
Votes to REMAIN: 30,960 (69.5%);
Votes to LEAVE: 13,596 (30.5%).
Third highest REMAIN vote share in Northern Ireland

Westminster Election 2017:
Emma Little Pengelly (DUP) 13,299 (30.4%)
Alasdair McDonnell (SDLP) 11,303 (25.9%)
Paula Bradshaw (Alliance) 7,946 (18.2%)
Máirtín Ó Muilleoir (SF) 7,143 (16.3%)
Clare Bailey (Green) 2,241 (5.1%)
Michael Henderson (UUP) 1,527 (3.5%)
Clare Salier (Con) 246 (0.6%)

Surely the Pro-Remain parties must do a election pack here, but if they do who gets the free run? It either have to be Claire Hanna (SDLP) or Paula Bradshaw (Alliance). Views Folks??
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 01, 2019, 12:32:35 PM
Quote from: drillsergeant on November 01, 2019, 12:28:40 PM
Key Battleground of South Belfast:

Brexit Referendum 2016:
Total electorate: 66,664
Turnout: 44,583 (66.9%), 3/18.
Votes to REMAIN: 30,960 (69.5%);
Votes to LEAVE: 13,596 (30.5%).
Third highest REMAIN vote share in Northern Ireland

Westminster Election 2017:
Emma Little Pengelly (DUP) 13,299 (30.4%)
Alasdair McDonnell (SDLP) 11,303 (25.9%)
Paula Bradshaw (Alliance) 7,946 (18.2%)
Máirtín Ó Muilleoir (SF) 7,143 (16.3%)
Clare Bailey (Green) 2,241 (5.1%)
Michael Henderson (UUP) 1,527 (3.5%)
Clare Salier (Con) 246 (0.6%)

Surely the Pro-Remain parties must do a election pack here, but if they do who gets the free run? It either have to be Claire Hanna (SDLP) or Paula Bradshaw (Alliance). Views Folks??

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: WT4E on November 01, 2019, 12:33:29 PM
Quote from: drillsergeant on November 01, 2019, 12:28:40 PM
Key Battleground of South Belfast:

Brexit Referendum 2016:
Total electorate: 66,664
Turnout: 44,583 (66.9%), 3/18.
Votes to REMAIN: 30,960 (69.5%);
Votes to LEAVE: 13,596 (30.5%).
Third highest REMAIN vote share in Northern Ireland

Westminster Election 2017:
Emma Little Pengelly (DUP) 13,299 (30.4%)
Alasdair McDonnell (SDLP) 11,303 (25.9%)
Paula Bradshaw (Alliance) 7,946 (18.2%)
Máirtín Ó Muilleoir (SF) 7,143 (16.3%)
Clare Bailey (Green) 2,241 (5.1%)
Michael Henderson (UUP) 1,527 (3.5%)
Clare Salier (Con) 246 (0.6%)

Surely the Pro-Remain parties must do a election pack here, but if they do who gets the free run? It either have to be Claire Hanna (SDLP) or Paula Bradshaw (Alliance). Views Folks??

Would it not be possible to mobilise the Holylands if we got them sobered up??? There are lots of nationalist voters there and cant imagine it be too hard for them to change their address if they living there during the week?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 01, 2019, 12:33:59 PM
Quote from: trileacman on November 01, 2019, 12:25:18 PM
Looking at the figures Boris will win this election by a very large margin.

Way too early to tell that!! Also he's had a bad couple of days on the campaign trail so far this thing will close and it'll be a hung parliament!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: WT4E on November 01, 2019, 12:37:28 PM
Quote from: snoopdog on November 01, 2019, 12:10:46 PM
Its time for both communities to go back to the  more moderate . The nationalist community as stated above now need a voice in westminister . And the unionists need a more moderate party who actually want to get involved in govt. The need for SDLP the UUP and Alliance has never been greater.  The Sdlp have some good people like  Hanna, Mallon and Eastwood. Who actually care about people.  Sinn Fein i believe would be delighted with a no deal brexit as it would bring a UI closer but people would be crippled for years in the north. And Sinn Fein in a united Ireland would be irrelevant as a party.

UUP had a big chance recently on a number of fronts and seem to lack serious balls... They could have been the unionist party who stood up for business & agri with the back stop but they decided to take the DUP line.

Also Aitken was probably taking a risk but one I think worth taking by saying they will run in every constituency which my have been a way back into politics for them but seems to have shit himself judging by what he said on the view last night... Election hasn't even started yet and hes fcuked it right up to save poor crying wee Nigel!!!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: mouview on November 01, 2019, 12:42:50 PM
Quote from: trileacman on November 01, 2019, 12:25:18 PM
Looking at the figures Boris will win this election by a very large margin.

Trump continually sticking his oar in is no help to him. Also, if no Brexit party pact, then it's bound to split at least some of the Tory vote. Either way, I do think it's heading for another coalition, this time without the DUP hopefully.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 01, 2019, 12:44:00 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 01, 2019, 12:33:59 PM
Quote from: trileacman on November 01, 2019, 12:25:18 PM
Looking at the figures Boris will win this election by a very large margin.

Way too early to tell that!! Also he's had a bad couple of days on the campaign trail so far this thing will close and it'll be a hung parliament!

I am worried this may be the outcome.

If it is then it's the end of Corbyn so basically it's the end of Corbyn or the end of Johnson I expect. I would rather see Johnson finished than Corbyn but I think it is a matter of time and the right circumstances before Corbyn is ousted anyway. I think this could be them.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 01, 2019, 12:56:13 PM
Quote from: WT4E on November 01, 2019, 12:33:29 PM
Quote from: drillsergeant on November 01, 2019, 12:28:40 PM
Key Battleground of South Belfast:

Brexit Referendum 2016:
Total electorate: 66,664
Turnout: 44,583 (66.9%), 3/18.
Votes to REMAIN: 30,960 (69.5%);
Votes to LEAVE: 13,596 (30.5%).
Third highest REMAIN vote share in Northern Ireland

Westminster Election 2017:
Emma Little Pengelly (DUP) 13,299 (30.4%)
Alasdair McDonnell (SDLP) 11,303 (25.9%)
Paula Bradshaw (Alliance) 7,946 (18.2%)
Máirtín Ó Muilleoir (SF) 7,143 (16.3%)
Clare Bailey (Green) 2,241 (5.1%)
Michael Henderson (UUP) 1,527 (3.5%)
Clare Salier (Con) 246 (0.6%)

Surely the Pro-Remain parties must do a election pack here, but if they do who gets the free run? It either have to be Claire Hanna (SDLP) or Paula Bradshaw (Alliance). Views Folks??

Would it not be possible to mobilise the Holylands if we got them sobered up??? There are lots of nationalist voters there and cant imagine it be too hard for them to change their address if they living there during the week?

When do students finish up for Christmas? Will a lot of them be doing exams this day or the next?
So they'll not probably home so need to get postal or proxy etc. or a vote wasted.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 01, 2019, 01:09:04 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 01, 2019, 12:32:35 PM
Quote from: drillsergeant on November 01, 2019, 12:28:40 PM
Key Battleground of South Belfast:

Brexit Referendum 2016:
Total electorate: 66,664
Turnout: 44,583 (66.9%), 3/18.
Votes to REMAIN: 30,960 (69.5%);
Votes to LEAVE: 13,596 (30.5%).
Third highest REMAIN vote share in Northern Ireland

Westminster Election 2017:
Emma Little Pengelly (DUP) 13,299 (30.4%)
Alasdair McDonnell (SDLP) 11,303 (25.9%)
Paula Bradshaw (Alliance) 7,946 (18.2%)
Máirtín Ó Muilleoir (SF) 7,143 (16.3%)
Clare Bailey (Green) 2,241 (5.1%)
Michael Henderson (UUP) 1,527 (3.5%)
Clare Salier (Con) 246 (0.6%)

Surely the Pro-Remain parties must do a election pack here, but if they do who gets the free run? It either have to be Claire Hanna (SDLP) or Paula Bradshaw (Alliance). Views Folks??

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Let Hanna have a free run there - the solicitor a free run in NB and Alliance a free run in East Belfast.

SF and SDLP can fight it out in Derry but it's a win for SDLP as unionists will vote for Eastwood. Personally zI think Eastwood is poor.  Every election, he's in there, always about him and his profile.  Another mess by the SDLP in regards their 'leader' in Westminister - they can't make their mind up can they/can they not have their leader in London.  They change their mind - speaking about that what's the bet Stevie renages on his statement of standing Ulster unionists in every area?

I'd love to get Dodds get the boot in Nth. Belfast so all effort should go into that.

The problem is, as usual, there doesn't seem to be agreement in the Remain parties - SF/SDLP/Alliance and Greens etc. and it would be a serious balls up if the DUP, as Brexiteers, take the majority of the seats.  It would send out a bad statement.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Farrandeelin on November 01, 2019, 01:16:35 PM
Will there be a Unionist pact in Fermanagh South Tyrone?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 01, 2019, 01:22:00 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on November 01, 2019, 01:16:35 PM
Will there be a Unionist pact in Fermanagh South Tyrone?

No need for one, DUP won't stand here anyway and it's a straight shoot out between SF & UUP.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 01, 2019, 01:29:09 PM
Quote from: marty34 on November 01, 2019, 01:09:04 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 01, 2019, 12:32:35 PM
Quote from: drillsergeant on November 01, 2019, 12:28:40 PM
Key Battleground of South Belfast:

Brexit Referendum 2016:
Total electorate: 66,664
Turnout: 44,583 (66.9%), 3/18.
Votes to REMAIN: 30,960 (69.5%);
Votes to LEAVE: 13,596 (30.5%).
Third highest REMAIN vote share in Northern Ireland

Westminster Election 2017:
Emma Little Pengelly (DUP) 13,299 (30.4%)
Alasdair McDonnell (SDLP) 11,303 (25.9%)
Paula Bradshaw (Alliance) 7,946 (18.2%)
Máirtín Ó Muilleoir (SF) 7,143 (16.3%)
Clare Bailey (Green) 2,241 (5.1%)
Michael Henderson (UUP) 1,527 (3.5%)
Clare Salier (Con) 246 (0.6%)

Surely the Pro-Remain parties must do a election pack here, but if they do who gets the free run? It either have to be Claire Hanna (SDLP) or Paula Bradshaw (Alliance). Views Folks??

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Let Hanna have a free run there - the solicitor a free run in NB and Alliance a free run in East Belfast.

SF and SDLP can fight it out in Derry but it's a win for SDLP as unionists will vote for Eastwood. Personally zI think Eastwood is poor.  Every election, he's in there, always about him and his profile.  Another mess by the SDLP in regards their 'leader' in Westminister - they can't make their mind up can they/can they not have their leader in London.  They change their mind - speaking about that what's the bet Stevie renages on his statement of standing Ulster unionists in every area?

I'd love to get Dodds get the boot in Nth. Belfast so all effort should go into that.

The problem is, as usual, there doesn't seem to be agreement in the Remain parties - SF/SDLP/Alliance and Greens etc. and it would be a serious balls up if the DUP, as Brexiteers, take the majority of the seats.  It would send out a bad statement.

That would make sense but it means remain parties setting aside their own narrow ambitions for the greater good and I'm not sure whether that will happen although they have fought a fairly united battle on Brexit related issues so we can hope.

Can't see too many unionists voting for Eastwood since he will take his seat in Westminster and might have some influence as a remainer however minor that is. Think it will be tight between SF and SDLP in Derry & Strabane. Finucane has to find 2,000 votes on Dodds and you would have to think that this will only be possible if SDLP step aside. An agreement for SF to step aside in South Belfast to allow Hanna get in and for SDLP to do likewise in north Belfast to give Finucane a chance would make sense.     
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on November 01, 2019, 01:30:11 PM
Obvious thing to do in Sth and Nth Belfast is whichever Nationalist party got the highest vote to stand and the other step aside.
Of course historically SF, the Irish Government etc should have insisted on PR being used in ALL 6 Co Elections ach sin scéal eile...
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: tbrick18 on November 01, 2019, 01:34:55 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on November 01, 2019, 12:44:00 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 01, 2019, 12:33:59 PM
Quote from: trileacman on November 01, 2019, 12:25:18 PM
Looking at the figures Boris will win this election by a very large margin.

Way too early to tell that!! Also he's had a bad couple of days on the campaign trail so far this thing will close and it'll be a hung parliament!

I am worried this may be the outcome.

If it is then it's the end of Corbyn so basically it's the end of Corbyn or the end of Johnson I expect. I would rather see Johnson finished than Corbyn but I think it is a matter of time and the right circumstances before Corbyn is ousted anyway. I think this could be them.

I don't get why so many want to see the end of Corbyn.
Looking at the leaders of all the main parties, he's the only one who seems to be genuine when it comes to the NHS, the poor, the students and workers.
Forgetting about Brexit for a second, these are things that actually affect people currently and will continue to do so in the future.
I see lots of comments about anyone being better than Corbyn so they are voting Tory to keep him out but from my perspective, anyone is better than any Tory. I personally like Corbyn's politics.

I think Boris and Farage will do a deal and it could well still be as drastic as being a no-deal Brexit being the arrangement.
This could give the Tories a majority. Without that deal, I think it will only ever be a hung parliament.
I think Lib Dems will increase their share of the vote with the Remain promise, Labour will win in some areas and lose to UKIP/Tories in others with their promise of a people's vote.
I wonder would LibDems and Labour team up to form a coalition in the case of a hung parliament?

I terms of the local MPs, I'd like to see almost any opportunity taken to reduce the DUP representation in Westminster.
They are toxic.
To the point, that in the absence of any official pact with Alliance/SDLP I'd hope SF will decide not to run a candidate in certain constituencies to ensure a remain candidate is returned.
Their abstentionist policy wont change, so there is a need to look at the bigger picture on how they can influence proceedings in Westminster. Personally, I think Alliance have some excellent options and for SDLP I think Hanna is very good. I think they could represent the majority of the people here in terms of Brexit opinion.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 01, 2019, 01:45:13 PM
Corbyn isn't a fan of Zionists and various other high powered people who are up to no good. These people have power enough to ruin someone like that unfortunately. The anit semitism thing is in my view a smear campaign.

Agreed anything can be done to get the DUP out is what people should be after. In my constituency Pengelly is in and should never be. Hopefully Hanna will get in instead of her but the nationalist vote is very split whereas the unionist vote isn't at all which causes the problem.

Some reckon the DUP will go from 10 to 6. I'd love to see it but I think it may just be wishful thinking.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Owenmoresider on November 01, 2019, 01:48:15 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 01, 2019, 01:30:11 PM
Obvious thing to do in Sth and Nth Belfast is whichever Nationalist party got the highest vote to stand and the other step aside.
Of course historically SF, the Irish Government etc should have insisted on PR being used in ALL 6 Co Elections ach sin scéal eile...
They are used in elections in NI for Assembly and councils, but this is a UK wide election so you can hardly run it in the North on a completely different form to how it operates in Britain. They had the chance to remove FPTP in 2011 but it was rejected, so that's that.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 01, 2019, 01:49:17 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on November 01, 2019, 01:45:13 PM
Corbyn isn't a fan of Zionists and various other high powered people who are up to no good. These people have power enough to ruin someone like that unfortunately. The anit semitism thing is in my view a smear campaign.

Agreed anything can be done to get the DUP out is what people should be after. In my constituency Pengelly is in and should never be. Hopefully Hanna will get in instead of her but the nationalist vote is very split whereas the unionist vote isn't at all which causes the problem.

Some reckon the DUP will go from 10 to 6. I'd love to see it but I think it may just be wishful thinking.
There is a 3 way civil war in the UK

The Tories have a neo victorian economic policy that will drive down incomes and mitigate it with cheaper food like chlorinated chicken
The Lib Dems are neoliberal so want more austerity
Labout are socialist and want to reform the economy so it works for ordinary people

The hatred of Corbyn comes from people who benefit from the status quo. That includes Zionists.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 01, 2019, 01:51:29 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 01, 2019, 01:29:09 PM
Quote from: marty34 on November 01, 2019, 01:09:04 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 01, 2019, 12:32:35 PM
Quote from: drillsergeant on November 01, 2019, 12:28:40 PM
Key Battleground of South Belfast:

Brexit Referendum 2016:
Total electorate: 66,664
Turnout: 44,583 (66.9%), 3/18.
Votes to REMAIN: 30,960 (69.5%);
Votes to LEAVE: 13,596 (30.5%).
Third highest REMAIN vote share in Northern Ireland

Westminster Election 2017:
Emma Little Pengelly (DUP) 13,299 (30.4%)
Alasdair McDonnell (SDLP) 11,303 (25.9%)
Paula Bradshaw (Alliance) 7,946 (18.2%)
Máirtín Ó Muilleoir (SF) 7,143 (16.3%)
Clare Bailey (Green) 2,241 (5.1%)
Michael Henderson (UUP) 1,527 (3.5%)
Clare Salier (Con) 246 (0.6%)

Surely the Pro-Remain parties must do a election pack here, but if they do who gets the free run? It either have to be Claire Hanna (SDLP) or Paula Bradshaw (Alliance). Views Folks??

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Let Hanna have a free run there - the solicitor a free run in NB and Alliance a free run in East Belfast.

SF and SDLP can fight it out in Derry but it's a win for SDLP as unionists will vote for Eastwood. Personally zI think Eastwood is poor.  Every election, he's in there, always about him and his profile.  Another mess by the SDLP in regards their 'leader' in Westminister - they can't make their mind up can they/can they not have their leader in London.  They change their mind - speaking about that what's the bet Stevie renages on his statement of standing Ulster unionists in every area?

I'd love to get Dodds get the boot in Nth. Belfast so all effort should go into that.

The problem is, as usual, there doesn't seem to be agreement in the Remain parties - SF/SDLP/Alliance and Greens etc. and it would be a serious balls up if the DUP, as Brexiteers, take the majority of the seats.  It would send out a bad statement.

That would make sense but it means remain parties setting aside their own narrow ambitions for the greater good and I'm not sure whether that will happen although they have fought a fairly united battle on Brexit related issues so we can hope.

Can't see too many unionists voting for Eastwood since he will take his seat in Westminster and might have some influence as a remainer however minor that is. Think it will be tight between SF and SDLP in Derry & Strabane. Finucane has to find 2,000 votes on Dodds and you would have to think that this will only be possible if SDLP step aside. An agreement for SF to step aside in South Belfast to allow Hanna get in and for SDLP to do likewise in north Belfast to give Finucane a chance would make sense.   

You're right - seems there's too many egos on the Remain side to sort out a pact.

Unlike the unionists!!! From now on, every election will be for the DUP.  It'll be a DUP headcount and we can see that now with the pressure being put on their new leader.  UU could be wiped out this time.

Re: Derry. I think Unionists will vote tactically to keep Mc A out. Simple as that.  They know their votes matters in a tight count.

We all know this is the simole solution for the pro EU parties regarding NB, SB and EB but it'll be interesting to see over next few days. 
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on November 01, 2019, 02:09:16 PM
Quote from: marty34 on November 01, 2019, 01:51:29 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 01, 2019, 01:29:09 PM
Quote from: marty34 on November 01, 2019, 01:09:04 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 01, 2019, 12:32:35 PM
Quote from: drillsergeant on November 01, 2019, 12:28:40 PM
Key Battleground of South Belfast:

Brexit Referendum 2016:
Total electorate: 66,664
Turnout: 44,583 (66.9%), 3/18.
Votes to REMAIN: 30,960 (69.5%);
Votes to LEAVE: 13,596 (30.5%).
Third highest REMAIN vote share in Northern Ireland

Westminster Election 2017:
Emma Little Pengelly (DUP) 13,299 (30.4%)
Alasdair McDonnell (SDLP) 11,303 (25.9%)
Paula Bradshaw (Alliance) 7,946 (18.2%)
Máirtín Ó Muilleoir (SF) 7,143 (16.3%)
Clare Bailey (Green) 2,241 (5.1%)
Michael Henderson (UUP) 1,527 (3.5%)
Clare Salier (Con) 246 (0.6%)

Surely the Pro-Remain parties must do a election pack here, but if they do who gets the free run? It either have to be Claire Hanna (SDLP) or Paula Bradshaw (Alliance). Views Folks??

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Let Hanna have a free run there - the solicitor a free run in NB and Alliance a free run in East Belfast.

SF and SDLP can fight it out in Derry but it's a win for SDLP as unionists will vote for Eastwood. Personally zI think Eastwood is poor.  Every election, he's in there, always about him and his profile.  Another mess by the SDLP in regards their 'leader' in Westminister - they can't make their mind up can they/can they not have their leader in London.  They change their mind - speaking about that what's the bet Stevie renages on his statement of standing Ulster unionists in every area?

I'd love to get Dodds get the boot in Nth. Belfast so all effort should go into that.

The problem is, as usual, there doesn't seem to be agreement in the Remain parties - SF/SDLP/Alliance and Greens etc. and it would be a serious balls up if the DUP, as Brexiteers, take the majority of the seats.  It would send out a bad statement.

That would make sense but it means remain parties setting aside their own narrow ambitions for the greater good and I'm not sure whether that will happen although they have fought a fairly united battle on Brexit related issues so we can hope.

Can't see too many unionists voting for Eastwood since he will take his seat in Westminster and might have some influence as a remainer however minor that is. Think it will be tight between SF and SDLP in Derry & Strabane. Finucane has to find 2,000 votes on Dodds and you would have to think that this will only be possible if SDLP step aside. An agreement for SF to step aside in South Belfast to allow Hanna get in and for SDLP to do likewise in north Belfast to give Finucane a chance would make sense.   

You're right - seems there's too many egos on the Remain side to sort out a pact.

Unlike the unionists!!! From now on, every election will be for the DUP.  It'll be a DUP headcount and we can see that now with the pressure being put on their new leader.  UU could be wiped out this time.

Re: Derry. I think Unionists will vote tactically to keep Mc A out. Simple as that.  They know their votes matters in a tight count.

We all know this is the simole solution for the pro EU parties regarding NB, SB and EB but it'll be interesting to see over next few days.

It all depends on how many votes Anne McCloskey takes from SF and SDLP. Far bigger factor than the dubious "unionists voting for SDLP" factor. I have worked with a lot of unionists from Waterside and not one considered voting SDLP.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Stall the Bailer on November 01, 2019, 03:15:28 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 01, 2019, 01:29:09 PM




The problem is, as usual, there doesn't seem to be agreement in the Remain parties -

Can't see too many unionists voting for Eastwood since he will take his seat in Westminster and might have some influence as a remainer however minor that is. Think it will be tight between SF and SDLP in Derry & Strabane. Finucane has to find 2,000 votes on Dodds and you would have to think that this will only be possible if SDLP step aside. An agreement for SF to step aside in South Belfast to allow Hanna get in and for SDLP to do likewise in north Belfast to give Finucane a chance would make sense.   
Strabane is in West Tyrone and not Foyle
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: dec on November 01, 2019, 03:38:20 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 01, 2019, 12:32:35 PM

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Sinn Fein have no interest in the SDLP being successful. They would rather get to the situation where they are the only voice for nationalism in the north.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on November 01, 2019, 03:59:36 PM
Quote from: dec on November 01, 2019, 03:38:20 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 01, 2019, 12:32:35 PM

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Sinn Fein have no interest in the SDLP being successful. They would rather get to the situation where they are the only voice for nationalism in the north.

This
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Owenmoresider on November 01, 2019, 04:10:10 PM
Quote from: dec on November 01, 2019, 03:38:20 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 01, 2019, 12:32:35 PM

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Sinn Fein have no interest in the SDLP being successful. They would rather get to the situation where they are the only voice for nationalism in the north.
Ourselves alone indeed.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on November 01, 2019, 04:28:45 PM
Betting odds:

No overall majority: 10/11
Tory majority: 6/5
Labour majority: 35/2
Any other party majority: 80/1

If the remain parties get their shit together and get the right pacts in place, I don't see the Tories getting a majority. My money would be on a hung parliament with Tories getting a plurality of seats, but remainer parties having a majority. Rainbow coalition government of Labour, Lib Dems, and SNP + others on the cards. LibDems will campaign on a Revoke Article 50 ticket, but will insist on second referendum as a compromise as a condition of coalition support. SNP will insist on Indyref II. Labour might reluctantly agree to it while hoping that if Brexit is cancelled then Scotland will vote to remain in the UK.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on November 01, 2019, 04:41:45 PM
Quote from: Owenmoresider on November 01, 2019, 04:10:10 PM
Quote from: dec on November 01, 2019, 03:38:20 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 01, 2019, 12:32:35 PM

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Sinn Fein have no interest in the SDLP being successful. They would rather get to the situation where they are the only voice for nationalism in the north.
Ourselves alone indeed.

They were encouraging their voters to vote Alliance in locals to keep SDLP out
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on November 01, 2019, 05:14:12 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on November 01, 2019, 10:05:12 AM
There are bigots on both sides. It's very blinkered, and naive,  to think otherwise.

Unionism is inherently homophobic, xenophobic, sectarian, and makes a point of blocking expressions of Irish culture at every turn.

Nationalism does not behave in that way. I don't buy this false equivalence.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 01, 2019, 05:49:34 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 01, 2019, 05:14:12 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on November 01, 2019, 10:05:12 AM
There are bigots on both sides. It's very blinkered, and naive,  to think otherwise.

Unionism is inherently homophobic, xenophobic, sectarian, and makes a point of blocking expressions of Irish culture at every turn.

Nationalism does not behave in that way. I don't buy this false equivalence.
Unionism is paranoid. The settler fear of the natives. Goes all the way back to 1641 and beyond. The symbols and the institutions.  They have no other proofs that they belong. Israel and the US are the same. Irish people don't have the same emptiness.

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 01, 2019, 06:13:56 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on November 01, 2019, 02:09:16 PM
Quote from: marty34 on November 01, 2019, 01:51:29 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 01, 2019, 01:29:09 PM
Quote from: marty34 on November 01, 2019, 01:09:04 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 01, 2019, 12:32:35 PM
Quote from: drillsergeant on November 01, 2019, 12:28:40 PM
Key Battleground of South Belfast:

Brexit Referendum 2016:
Total electorate: 66,664
Turnout: 44,583 (66.9%), 3/18.
Votes to REMAIN: 30,960 (69.5%);
Votes to LEAVE: 13,596 (30.5%).
Third highest REMAIN vote share in Northern Ireland

Westminster Election 2017:
Emma Little Pengelly (DUP) 13,299 (30.4%)
Alasdair McDonnell (SDLP) 11,303 (25.9%)
Paula Bradshaw (Alliance) 7,946 (18.2%)
Máirtín Ó Muilleoir (SF) 7,143 (16.3%)
Clare Bailey (Green) 2,241 (5.1%)
Michael Henderson (UUP) 1,527 (3.5%)
Clare Salier (Con) 246 (0.6%)

Surely the Pro-Remain parties must do a election pack here, but if they do who gets the free run? It either have to be Claire Hanna (SDLP) or Paula Bradshaw (Alliance). Views Folks??

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Let Hanna have a free run there - the solicitor a free run in NB and Alliance a free run in East Belfast.

SF and SDLP can fight it out in Derry but it's a win for SDLP as unionists will vote for Eastwood. Personally zI think Eastwood is poor.  Every election, he's in there, always about him and his profile.  Another mess by the SDLP in regards their 'leader' in Westminister - they can't make their mind up can they/can they not have their leader in London.  They change their mind - speaking about that what's the bet Stevie renages on his statement of standing Ulster unionists in every area?

I'd love to get Dodds get the boot in Nth. Belfast so all effort should go into that.

The problem is, as usual, there doesn't seem to be agreement in the Remain parties - SF/SDLP/Alliance and Greens etc. and it would be a serious balls up if the DUP, as Brexiteers, take the majority of the seats.  It would send out a bad statement.

That would make sense but it means remain parties setting aside their own narrow ambitions for the greater good and I'm not sure whether that will happen although they have fought a fairly united battle on Brexit related issues so we can hope.

Can't see too many unionists voting for Eastwood since he will take his seat in Westminster and might have some influence as a remainer however minor that is. Think it will be tight between SF and SDLP in Derry & Strabane. Finucane has to find 2,000 votes on Dodds and you would have to think that this will only be possible if SDLP step aside. An agreement for SF to step aside in South Belfast to allow Hanna get in and for SDLP to do likewise in north Belfast to give Finucane a chance would make sense.   

You're right - seems there's too many egos on the Remain side to sort out a pact.

Unlike the unionists!!! From now on, every election will be for the DUP.  It'll be a DUP headcount and we can see that now with the pressure being put on their new leader.  UU could be wiped out this time.

Re: Derry. I think Unionists will vote tactically to keep Mc A out. Simple as that.  They know their votes matters in a tight count.

We all know this is the simole solution for the pro EU parties regarding NB, SB and EB but it'll be interesting to see over next few days.

It all depends on how many votes Anne McCloskey takes from SF and SDLP. Far bigger factor than the dubious "unionists voting for SDLP" factor. I have worked with a lot of unionists from Waterside and not one considered voting SDLP.

Well, they're not going to tell you I'd say.  It's all about tactics now - they'll want Mc Callion out and as not chance of DUP/UUP winning, it's their only option.

Same as WB a few years ago - Shankhill votes got Joe Hendron elected.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 01, 2019, 06:19:31 PM
Quote from: dec on November 01, 2019, 03:38:20 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 01, 2019, 12:32:35 PM

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Sinn Fein have no interest in the SDLP being successful. They would rather get to the situation where they are the only voice for nationalism in the north.

The Pro EU sides need to get their act together and get a pact organised asap. 

They then need to tell the electorate that this is about Brexit - votes are either for or against. 

Give the voters a choice - DUP or anti-Brexit party (whoever that may be pact wise)

Sending mixed messages will be hopeless.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Armagh18 on November 01, 2019, 06:36:02 PM
Quote from: dec on November 01, 2019, 03:38:20 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 01, 2019, 12:32:35 PM

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Sinn Fein have no interest in the SDLP being successful. They would rather get to the situation where they are the only voice for nationalism in the north.
Looks like the situation at the minute anyway.... sdlp=unionists dressed as nationalists.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on November 01, 2019, 07:07:22 PM
Quote from: dec on November 01, 2019, 03:38:20 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 01, 2019, 12:32:35 PM

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Sinn Fein have no interest in the SDLP being successful. They would rather get to the situation where they are the only voice for nationalism in the north.

Aye, and what do they do with their voice? They may as well shout down a well, for all the good they do.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: take_yer_points on November 01, 2019, 07:27:29 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on November 01, 2019, 01:34:55 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on November 01, 2019, 12:44:00 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 01, 2019, 12:33:59 PM
Quote from: trileacman on November 01, 2019, 12:25:18 PM
Looking at the figures Boris will win this election by a very large margin.

Way too early to tell that!! Also he's had a bad couple of days on the campaign trail so far this thing will close and it'll be a hung parliament!

I am worried this may be the outcome.

If it is then it's the end of Corbyn so basically it's the end of Corbyn or the end of Johnson I expect. I would rather see Johnson finished than Corbyn but I think it is a matter of time and the right circumstances before Corbyn is ousted anyway. I think this could be them.

I don't get why so many want to see the end of Corbyn.
Looking at the leaders of all the main parties, he's the only one who seems to be genuine when it comes to the NHS, the poor, the students and workers.
Forgetting about Brexit for a second, these are things that actually affect people currently and will continue to do so in the future.
I see lots of comments about anyone being better than Corbyn so they are voting Tory to keep him out but from my perspective, anyone is better than any Tory. I personally like Corbyn's politics.

I think Boris and Farage will do a deal and it could well still be as drastic as being a no-deal Brexit being the arrangement.
This could give the Tories a majority. Without that deal, I think it will only ever be a hung parliament.
I think Lib Dems will increase their share of the vote with the Remain promise, Labour will win in some areas and lose to UKIP/Tories in others with their promise of a people's vote.
I wonder would LibDems and Labour team up to form a coalition in the case of a hung parliament?

I terms of the local MPs, I'd like to see almost any opportunity taken to reduce the DUP representation in Westminster.
They are toxic.
To the point, that in the absence of any official pact with Alliance/SDLP I'd hope SF will decide not to run a candidate in certain constituencies to ensure a remain candidate is returned.
Their abstentionist policy wont change, so there is a need to look at the bigger picture on how they can influence proceedings in Westminster. Personally, I think Alliance have some excellent options and for SDLP I think Hanna is very good. I think they could represent the majority of the people here in terms of Brexit opinion.

If Boris and Farage do a deal with no deal as the arrangement, would Boris not lose a portion of his vote who want to leave with a deal?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 01, 2019, 07:48:22 PM
The combination of the Assembly shutdown and the SF clean sweep last time meant that the only person standing up for Remainers was Sylvia Hermon. SF need a good kick up the arse this time around.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on November 01, 2019, 08:11:40 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on November 01, 2019, 06:36:02 PM
Quote from: dec on November 01, 2019, 03:38:20 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 01, 2019, 12:32:35 PM

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Sinn Fein have no interest in the SDLP being successful. They would rather get to the situation where they are the only voice for nationalism in the north.
Looks like the situation at the minute anyway.... sdlp=unionists dressed as nationalists.

How do you work that out?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: naka on November 01, 2019, 08:39:46 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on November 01, 2019, 06:36:02 PM
Quote from: dec on November 01, 2019, 03:38:20 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 01, 2019, 12:32:35 PM

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Sinn Fein have no interest in the SDLP being successful. They would rather get to the situation where they are the only voice for nationalism in the north.
Looks like the situation at the minute anyway.... sdlp=unionists dressed as nationalists.
Awful statement
But it sums up shinner thinking
this board has gone down hill in the 20 years I have been on it
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Jim Bob on November 01, 2019, 08:49:21 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on November 01, 2019, 06:36:02 PM
Quote from: dec on November 01, 2019, 03:38:20 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 01, 2019, 12:32:35 PM

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Sinn Fein have no interest in the SDLP being successful. They would rather get to the situation where they are the only voice for nationalism in the north.
Looks like the situation at the minute anyway.... sdlp=unionists dressed as nationalists.

Such a stupid statement.  1980s Provo mentality
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on November 01, 2019, 08:54:10 PM
The chuckies seem to be more outspoken in their quest for an immediate border poll than they are in any opposition to Brexit. In fact they don't seem to be opposed to Brexit at all. It's like they see Brexit as an opportunity to come up with some novel arrangement for the North staying in the EU while Britain leaves.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 01, 2019, 08:59:04 PM
UUP staff now receiving threats after their refusal to enter a pact with the DUP. Is this what democracy looks like in 2019, bully boy tactics to influence election results.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 01, 2019, 09:35:31 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 01, 2019, 08:59:04 PM
UUP staff now receiving threats after their refusal to enter a pact with the DUP. Is this what democracy looks like in 2019, bully boy tactics to influence election results.

Jamie Bryson will be on the Nolan show first thing on Monday morning, blaming it on the IRA, probably.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on November 01, 2019, 10:12:58 PM
Boris has rejected a pact with Farage!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 02, 2019, 08:48:49 AM
http://www.sdlp.ie/news/2016/eastwood-poll-lays-out-challenge-for-nationalism/

The results of the BBC IPSOS MORI poll set out the clear challenge for nationalism. We now need to put in the hard yards to develop a credible and detailed path to Irish unity. Only a comprehensive national debate with detailed proposals can move the discussion beyond the predetermined and into the practical. Scottish Independence activists compiled a 670-page document outlining the road to independent nationhood. That saw support from independence rise from 28% in 2013 to 45% in 2014.

"I firmly believe that the people of Northern Ireland will judge that their interests are best served in a united Ireland, in the same way that they astutely judged our interests were best served in a strong, united Europe. The challenge now is for civic nationalism to articulate how unity can provide better public services, forge a vibrant new economy and create a better quality of life for everyone on the island. The SDLP is up for that challenge and we'll join with others across this island to make that case."
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Farrandeelin on November 02, 2019, 08:54:15 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 01, 2019, 08:54:10 PM
The chuckies seem to be more outspoken in their quest for an immediate border poll than they are in any opposition to Brexit. In fact they don't seem to be opposed to Brexit at all. It's like they see Brexit as an opportunity to come up with some novel arrangement for the North staying in the EU while Britain leaves.

Indeed. All that comes out of any Shinner mouth is border poll this, border poll that it seems.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: t_mac on November 02, 2019, 09:01:40 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 01, 2019, 08:11:40 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on November 01, 2019, 06:36:02 PM
Quote from: dec on November 01, 2019, 03:38:20 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 01, 2019, 12:32:35 PM

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Sinn Fein have no interest in the SDLP being successful. They would rather get to the situation where they are the only voice for nationalism in the north.
Looks like the situation at the minute anyway.... sdlp=unionists dressed as nationalists.

How do you work that out?

Probably because they don't shout tiocfaidh ar la, and want to engage in political institutions to serve their electorate. 
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: snoopdog on November 02, 2019, 09:12:55 AM
Quote from: hardstation on November 01, 2019, 09:12:34 PM
Quote from: naka on November 01, 2019, 08:39:46 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on November 01, 2019, 06:36:02 PM
Quote from: dec on November 01, 2019, 03:38:20 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 01, 2019, 12:32:35 PM

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Sinn Fein have no interest in the SDLP being successful. They would rather get to the situation where they are the only voice for nationalism in the north.
Looks like the situation at the minute anyway.... sdlp=unionists dressed as nationalists.
Awful statement
But it sums up shinner thinking
this board has gone down hill in the 20 years I have been on it
So has the SDLP funny enough.
A very childish statement. Yes the sdlp have struggled since the days of Hume and Mallon. But are sinn fein really interested in whats best for the nationalist people? They havent shown it this last few years  .they have poor leadership compared to what gerry and Martin offerred. Border poll this and border poll that. A border poll without proper dialogue would be a disaster. Alot of moderate nationalists currently have no interest in a united ireland .
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: charlieTully on November 02, 2019, 10:03:37 AM
Quote from: snoopdog on November 02, 2019, 09:12:55 AM
Quote from: hardstation on November 01, 2019, 09:12:34 PM
Quote from: naka on November 01, 2019, 08:39:46 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on November 01, 2019, 06:36:02 PM
Quote from: dec on November 01, 2019, 03:38:20 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 01, 2019, 12:32:35 PM

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Sinn Fein have no interest in the SDLP being successful. They would rather get to the situation where they are the only voice for nationalism in the north.
Looks like the situation at the minute anyway.... sdlp=unionists dressed as nationalists.
Awful statement
But it sums up shinner thinking
this board has gone down hill in the 20 years I have been on it
So has the SDLP funny enough.
A very childish statement. Yes the sdlp have struggled since the days of Hume and Mallon. But are sinn fein really interested in whats best for the nationalist people? They havent shown it this last few years  .they have poor leadership compared to what gerry and Martin offerred. Border poll this and border poll that. A border poll without proper dialogue would be a disaster. Alot of moderate nationalists currently have no interest in a united ireland .

They aren't really moderate nationalists in that case. They aren't nationalist at all. Just unionists with an interest in Irish culture. The SDLP in other words.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: 6th sam on November 02, 2019, 10:05:04 AM
Quote from: snoopdog on November 02, 2019, 09:12:55 AM
Quote from: hardstation on November 01, 2019, 09:12:34 PM
Quote from: naka on November 01, 2019, 08:39:46 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on November 01, 2019, 06:36:02 PM
Quote from: dec on November 01, 2019, 03:38:20 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 01, 2019, 12:32:35 PM

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Sinn Fein have no interest in the SDLP being successful. They would rather get to the situation where they are the only voice for nationalism in the north.
Looks like the situation at the minute anyway.... sdlp=unionists dressed as nationalists.
Awful statement
But it sums up shinner thinking
this board has gone down hill in the 20 years I have been on it
So has the SDLP funny enough.
A very childish statement. Yes the sdlp have struggled since the days of Hume and Mallon. But are sinn fein really interested in whats best for the nationalist people? They havent shown it this last few years  .they have poor leadership compared to what gerry and Martin offerred. Border poll this and border poll that. A border poll without proper dialogue would be a disaster. Alot of moderate nationalists currently have no interest in a united ireland .

Is that not a contradiction in terms?
Or does it betray the mentality of a lot of SDLP voters who actually are voting on sectarian lines as opposed to national unity. The SDLP have had some real heroes such as Hume and Durkin who put peaceful solutions to the conflict above all else including their own political careers. More recently unfortunately some in the SDLP are putting their own rivalry with SF above all else. In reality Alliance are more honest by stating they are neutral on unity. Many in the SDLP are either neutral or disinterested in Unity , yet still avail of the nationalist headcount.
We need a Hume like figure from moderate nationalism to chart a path to a solution across these islands into the future. This must include respecting and indeed fostering the British identity of ~1 million unionists within a 32 county context that also respects the Irish identity of ~1million nationalists( NI has had a 100 years of opportunities to respect this Irish identity but has failed miserably) . I think SF emphasis on a border poll at this time is unhelpful and will only serve to rally the unionist cause. The GFA was successfully forged on the basis of reconciliation , respect and equality. Sadly those principles ( which would meet agreement from ~1.5million ) have not retained primacy, thus we haven't moved forward . the anti-Irish bigotry of a shrinking number of unionists remains the main stumbling block to progress. Amazingly these bigots still are influencing decisions at the highest level, because their opponents are cutting lumps out of each other. What I would like to see in the upcoming elections is an unwritten pact between those that are opposed to brexit to maximise the remain vote to send a clear message to Westminster . Formal pacts would be counterproductive but a positive remain campaign and isolation of the DUP is paramount .
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 02, 2019, 10:19:45 AM
Out for a walk this morning & Bradshaw has her posters up. No pact in South Belfast, by the looks of it & thon DUP piece of shit will keep her seat, unfortunately.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on November 02, 2019, 10:25:50 AM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 02, 2019, 10:19:45 AM
Out for a walk this morning & Bradshaw has her posters up. No pact in South Belfast, by the looks of it & thon DUP piece of shit will keep her seat, unfortunately.

Bradshaw not needed in SB. If SF don't stand then Hanna walks it
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 02, 2019, 10:39:02 AM
Quote from: t_mac on November 02, 2019, 09:01:40 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 01, 2019, 08:11:40 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on November 01, 2019, 06:36:02 PM
Quote from: dec on November 01, 2019, 03:38:20 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 01, 2019, 12:32:35 PM

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Sinn Fein have no interest in the SDLP being successful. They would rather get to the situation where they are the only voice for nationalism in the north.
Looks like the situation at the minute anyway.... sdlp=unionists dressed as nationalists.

How do you work that out?

Probably because they don't shout tiocfaidh ar la, and want to engage in political institutions to serve their electorate.
What is the SF plan for day 2 of a United Ireland ?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: 6th sam on November 02, 2019, 11:00:53 AM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 02, 2019, 10:19:45 AM
Out for a walk this morning & Bradshaw has her posters up. No pact in South Belfast, by the looks of it & thon DUP piece of shit will keep her seat, unfortunately.

Currently SDLP and Alliance are rival parties, therefore a pact is a dangerous path to follow as it can have unintended consequences . For example if MOM stepped aside in SB , DUP will cry that Claire Hanna is linking up with SF/IRA and stir up their troops. Similarly if SDLP stepped aside to give Naomi Long a clear run it would expose that there is little difference between the two parties and one party tends to lose out in long term ( cf UUP pacts with DUP)
Carlsberg pact: abstentionist SF withdraw candidates as a once-off , pro-remain gesture to maximise the remain votes in Westminster. Agreed remain candidates in all constituencies, maximising remain vote and MPs, therefore inflicting a long overdue hammer blow on the DUP.   

But unfortunately that won't happen.
A pact between Alliance  and SDLP isn't going to happen in the short term, and a long term merger might actually be more realistic .

In the short time we have , there must be unwritten cooperation between remain parties eg low key canvassing & focus on trying to get best placed remain candidates through ( this includes  JF in North Belfast and Sylvia Hermon in North Down) . If SDLP were to get over the line in Derry to put a pro-remain MP in Westminster, they might be happy to have John Finucane get thru in NB, to knockout Dodds from Parliament.  The one thing that could unite the vast majority of people in the North, is delivering a hammer blow to the DUP at the polls. If for the first time DUP got kicked at the polls, it would for once put them on the back foot and they may then feel compelled to cooperate with others
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Farrandeelin on November 02, 2019, 04:03:57 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 02, 2019, 10:39:02 AM
Quote from: t_mac on November 02, 2019, 09:01:40 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 01, 2019, 08:11:40 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on November 01, 2019, 06:36:02 PM
Quote from: dec on November 01, 2019, 03:38:20 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 01, 2019, 12:32:35 PM

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Sinn Fein have no interest in the SDLP being successful. They would rather get to the situation where they are the only voice for nationalism in the north.
Looks like the situation at the minute anyway.... sdlp=unionists dressed as nationalists.

How do you work that out?

Probably because they don't shout tiocfaidh ar la, and want to engage in political institutions to serve their electorate.
What is the SF plan for day 2 of a United Ireland ?

Protest that people have to pay for x, y and z.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 02, 2019, 04:51:38 PM
The DUP will not be running a candidate in FST
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rois on November 02, 2019, 06:42:18 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 02, 2019, 04:51:38 PM
The DUP will not be running a candidate in FST
No different from 2017 and SF still won the seat.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: 6th sam on November 02, 2019, 06:49:11 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 02, 2019, 04:51:38 PM
The DUP will not be running a candidate in FST

The DUP are running scared , they are getting in early re FST as they are happy that Tom Elliott is one of their own anyway ,but hoping UUP will continue to stand aside in NB particularly ,?as Dodds is under serious pressure. A low key SDLP campaign in NB could ensure John Finucane gets over the line, moving Dodds off the stage with his tail between his legs, which would send a clear message to DUP. For a purely pro-remain return A Clare Hanna victory in SB, Naomi long in EB and Colm Eastwood In Foyle and SDLP win in South Down, is the best scenario to optimise Pro-remain voting strength in Westminster . Will remainers vote tactically in this election and give a sobering message to DUP. I sense many will put party political loyalty to one side to hammer the DUP and move us out of the nonsense we continue to endure from them.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 02, 2019, 07:14:22 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on November 02, 2019, 06:49:11 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 02, 2019, 04:51:38 PM
The DUP will not be running a candidate in FST

The DUP are running scared , they are getting in early re FST as they are happy that Tom Elliott is one of their own anyway ,but hoping UUP will continue to stand aside in NB particularly ,?as Dodds is under serious pressure. A low key SDLP campaign in NB could ensure John Finucane gets over the line, moving Dodds off the stage with his tail between his legs, which would send a clear message to DUP. For a purely pro-remain return A Clare Hanna victory in SB, Naomi long in EB and Colm Eastwood In Foyle and SDLP win in South Down, is the best scenario to optimise Pro-remain voting strength in Westminster . Will remainers vote tactically in this election and give a sobering message to DUP. I sense many will put party political loyalty to one side to hammer the DUP and move us out of the nonsense we continue to endure from them.

I've said it before:

1. Sort Pro EU candidates for election pact.
2. Simple message - Your choice: DUP or Pro EU.

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rois on November 02, 2019, 08:03:43 PM
Quote from: Rois on November 02, 2019, 06:42:18 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 02, 2019, 04:51:38 PM
The DUP will not be running a candidate in FST
No different from 2017 and SF still won the seat.
Edit: Tom Elliott, whom Arlene endorsed in a tweet today, has said he has not yet even expressed an interest in running.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 02, 2019, 08:11:51 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on November 02, 2019, 06:49:11 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 02, 2019, 04:51:38 PM
The DUP will not be running a candidate in FST

The DUP are running scared , they are getting in early re FST as they are happy that Tom Elliott is one of their own anyway ,but hoping UUP will continue to stand aside in NB particularly ,?as Dodds is under serious pressure. A low key SDLP campaign in NB could ensure John Finucane gets over the line, moving Dodds off the stage with his tail between his legs, which would send a clear message to DUP. For a purely pro-remain return A Clare Hanna victory in SB, Naomi long in EB and Colm Eastwood In Foyle and SDLP win in South Down, is the best scenario to optimise Pro-remain voting strength in Westminster . Will remainers vote tactically in this election and give a sobering message to DUP. I sense many will put party political loyalty to one side to hammer the DUP and move us out of the nonsense we continue to endure from them.
The DUP crashed and burned with Brexit so there will be some kind of price to pay
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 02, 2019, 08:16:02 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 02, 2019, 08:11:51 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on November 02, 2019, 06:49:11 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 02, 2019, 04:51:38 PM
The DUP will not be running a candidate in FST

The DUP are running scared , they are getting in early re FST as they are happy that Tom Elliott is one of their own anyway ,but hoping UUP will continue to stand aside in NB particularly ,?as Dodds is under serious pressure. A low key SDLP campaign in NB could ensure John Finucane gets over the line, moving Dodds off the stage with his tail between his legs, which would send a clear message to DUP. For a purely pro-remain return A Clare Hanna victory in SB, Naomi long in EB and Colm Eastwood In Foyle and SDLP win in South Down, is the best scenario to optimise Pro-remain voting strength in Westminster . Will remainers vote tactically in this election and give a sobering message to DUP. I sense many will put party political loyalty to one side to hammer the DUP and move us out of the nonsense we continue to endure from them.
The DUP crashed and burned with Brexit so there will be some kind of price to pay

Unionists will vote for the DUP.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Clinker on November 02, 2019, 08:40:24 PM
Major psychological win for Unionism in the Athletic Grounds tonight.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: 6th sam on November 02, 2019, 08:47:52 PM
Quote from: Rois on November 02, 2019, 08:03:43 PM
Quote from: Rois on November 02, 2019, 06:42:18 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 02, 2019, 04:51:38 PM
The DUP will not be running a candidate in FST
No different from 2017 and SF still won the seat.
Edit: Tom Elliott, whom Arlene endorsed in a tweet today, has said he has not yet even expressed an interest in running.

It's time for moderate unionists to step up. Arlene has basically endorsed Tom who hasn't even been selected yet. It's a transparent attempt by the patronising DUP to tell UUP what to do. UUP have bowed to this pressure over the years and even watched the DUP poach some of their most eminent politicians , they have been ridiculed by DUP over several years. Is Aitken the man to finally stand up for moderate unionism against the selfish, backward and corrupt DUP?

Much as I would like agreed non abstentionist MPs returned in all possible constituencies to fight against brexit in parliament, an election pact on the remain side won't happen for some of these reasons:
1. Too late for it to happen
2. Not the best way of maximising the pro-remain vote across the North
3. Not possible for SDLP because of pressure from FF, Alliance because they have spent nearly 50 years "non-aligned" and won't want to be branded as nationalist now , and SF voters won't like standing aside for SDLP who have been openly antagonist to them for years .
4. Will motivate some moderate unionists who will vote against a "pan nationalist front" -DUP will be happy to exploit that
5. A desire for parties to engage in real politics and give voters choice
6. Fear of it backfiring and causing the demise of weaker parties.

The best option for all in the North is for parties to decide where they are going to stand with pro remain choices in all constituencies. In marginal seats the hope is that remainers and the 75% of the population who despise the DUP , vote tactically. This will give a massive pro remain headcount , potentially unseat 3 DUP MPs and potentially send 4 fresh remainers to Westminster.
Are pro-remain parties mature enough and unselfish enough to drive the boot into the DUP for the benefit of all , or will they continue to drive the boot into each other ,to the benefit of the DUP.
The GFA happened as a result of the likes of Hume putting the electorate before his party's interest, and it successfully put an end to bloodshed , by isolating unreasonable unionism . The same needs to happen again
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on November 03, 2019, 03:03:12 PM
UUP have pulled out of North Belfast. Good to see UDA intimidation still works FFS. Aiken and the UUP are an absolute joke and are finished now if anyone was in any doubt
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 03, 2019, 03:28:21 PM
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on November 03, 2019, 03:03:12 PM
UUP have pulled out of North Belfast. Good to see UDA intimidation still works FFS. Aiken and the UUP are an absolute joke and are finished now if anyone was in any doubt

No surprise there.  Everybody saw that coming.

Unionists will have 1 party to vote for from now on - the DUP.

Very disappointing that Pro EU parties won't get their act together but not unexpected - too many big egoes.

Nationalists have turned soft I think - too many softies amongst the ranks.  Look at how many nationalist s James McClean excluded, don't wear a poppy on tv? Too worried about their career!  As I say - softies.


Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 03, 2019, 04:14:12 PM
Ulster Unionist general election 2019, thus far.
"Of course we will be running 18 candidates".
"I'm not saying whether or not we are running 18 candidates".
"We aren't running in North Belfast".
Welcome to the exciting world of Submarine Steve. He will not even last the current average of roughly a couple of years per UU leader, if he keeps this up (and he isn't even in post yet). The stupider the UU leadership manages to be, it probably convinces the average PUL dupe that Snarlene is wonderful, by comparison.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on November 03, 2019, 06:45:59 PM
They should do the dacent thing and disband.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 03, 2019, 06:47:21 PM
John Finucane must have the potential to lead SF in the future

https://twitter.com/johnfinucane/status/1189659594420822018
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rois on November 03, 2019, 06:56:05 PM
Same as FST and the DUP, the UUP haven't run in North Belfast in at least the last two general elections. So it doesn't extend Dodds's lead.
Still waiting to hear from SDLP, whose constituency meeting in N Belfast was yesterday morning.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 03, 2019, 07:01:35 PM
Predictable but saddening couple of days in NI politics.

Aiken isn't a bad lad but let's face it he has caved in here. Political outright unionism definitely has no place for anyone who is pro EU or pro a civilised settlement in NI. No gain for Alliance in FST or in North Belfast but they must be rubbing their hands for other constituencies namely East and possibly South Belfast this time and more generally across NI in future PR elections
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: red hander on November 03, 2019, 07:13:00 PM
Steve 'Yellow Submarine' Aiken. Leadership a complete and utter failure before it's even begun. Final nail in coffin of party that led apartheid regime here from 1921 to 1972.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 03, 2019, 08:33:41 PM
Quote from: red hander on November 03, 2019, 07:13:00 PM
Steve 'Yellow Submarine' Aiken. Leadership a complete and utter failure before it's even begun. Final nail in coffin of party that led apartheid regime here from 1921 to 1972.

In fairness, who is surprised by this cave in?

I, for one, am not.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rois on November 04, 2019, 12:53:48 AM
SDLP not standing in N Belfast, not in East or North Down. Smart decision, SF likely to reciprocate in South Belfast. SF need to play a smart campaign in NB now and go full on anti-DUP.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: armaghniac on November 04, 2019, 01:07:36 AM
Anti-DUP sounds a bit like themmuns. Pro GFA would be a stronger suit.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on November 04, 2019, 01:12:11 AM
Quote from: Rois on November 04, 2019, 12:53:48 AM
SDLP not standing in N Belfast, not in East or North Down. Smart decision, SF likely to reciprocate in South Belfast. SF need to play a smart campaign in NB now and go full on anti-DUP.

Are they?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: 6th sam on November 04, 2019, 01:42:06 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on November 04, 2019, 01:07:36 AM
Anti-DUP sounds a bit like themmuns. Pro GFA would be a stronger suit.

No harm to you , but lazily categorising anti-DUP as being against themmums is insulting. I'm anti-sectarian but strongly anti DUP.
I have no issue with "themmums" if you mean Protestants, British, unionists. I actually like, admire and respect many with those ideals and I share many of their concerns. However the DUP as a party have consistently shown themselves to be ungenerous, bigoted , triumphalist, discriminatory and corrupt. In Ian paisley and Peter Robinson they had leaders so greedy for power that they reluctantly engaged to power share and bit their tongue for the glory of the first minister accolade. Arlene is so anti-Irish she can't even do that. The DUP need hammered and exposed . Hopefully other unionists will emerge to argue a very worthy cause, but that won't be easy given the apparent UDA threat when UUP muted challenging the DUP in NB. Perhaps a leader will emerge from
The middle ground to unite the population here and Tbf Naomi Long looks well placed. We've all had to endure this nonsense for too long, going right back to Paisley's sectarian role in stoking the conflict .  Let's move these dinosaurs aside and finally move towards a normal society .
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: omaghjoe on November 04, 2019, 04:32:41 AM
This will defo make things interesting in NB there every possibility Finucane could unseat Dodds. There will be a fierce scrap to get the voters out there. As a gesture to remain voters he could say he will take his seat for Brexit votes and debates tho prob unlikely the cult would allow that. 
Also not sure if they will reciprocate in SB, they may well which should make it wee buns for Hannah.
EB is a different kettle of fish tho. I think Naomi only got in cos the DUP couldn't get the vote out but they have consistently now for a few elections so think its unlikely she'd make it
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Orior on November 04, 2019, 06:20:21 AM
For additional pantomime, JF should dress up as Daniel O'Connell and enter the Houses of Parliament. That's after he wins obvs
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rois on November 04, 2019, 06:52:37 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on November 04, 2019, 01:07:36 AM
Anti-DUP sounds a bit like themmuns. Pro GFA would be a stronger suit.
Absolutely not. A build-up of anti DUP sentiment doesn't just cover GFA or Brexit, but also their attempts to deny equal rights, plus their involvement in numerous scandals. Having read the book on RHI, the workings of that party have utterly disgusted me further.
If Sylvia Hermon was Dodds's closest competitor in NB, she'd get my vote.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 04, 2019, 08:26:20 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on November 04, 2019, 01:07:36 AM
Anti-DUP sounds a bit like themmuns. Pro GFA would be a stronger suit.
The themmuns modes means failure is tolerated . The DUP made a horse's arse of Brexit and the customs border will increase costs for both sens of muns. 
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: 6th sam on November 04, 2019, 09:15:20 AM
Cue the SF/IRA , pan nationalist front rhetoric from DUP and throwing Alliance in the mix as SDLP stepped aside for them and SF (cf the vitriol and violence against Alliance when they had the cheek to remain neutral re flags.)
Decent people on all sides need to stand up to the self-interested DUP .
I genuinely feel sorry for the Protestant working class who have been shafted by the DUP for years, massive job losses, educational underachievement , poor health outcomes, whilst DUP politicians going back to Paisley and Robinson are coining it. A unionist friend of mine enlightened me on the fact that the DUP have been viewed as corrupt for years but Were  lucky in being positioned as the leaders of unionism and therefore secure many voters , who don't like them but feel they are in the best position to maintain the union. If nationalists can reassure those decent unionists that any new arrangements will be economically sound and respect their Britishness , they'll turn on the DUP dinosaurs as well
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 04, 2019, 09:17:06 AM
Fair play to Nicola Mallon - that's leadership.  They've made this decision unilaterally i.e. no contact with other parties.

Be interesting to see how the numbers stack up.

I take it no 'dissidents' will be voting!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 04, 2019, 10:10:51 AM
Quote from: marty34 on November 04, 2019, 09:17:06 AM
Fair play to Nicola Mallon - that's leadership.  They've made this decision unilaterally i.e. no contact with other parties.

Be interesting to see how the numbers stack up.

I take it no 'dissidents' will be voting!

Ahem, Nicola said on the radio this morning that Michelle was on the phone a week or so ago but nothing was agreed formally and no "pacts" were in place.

I think its sensible politics from the SDLP and if Eastwood does take a seat in Foyle then no harm done IMO.
Shinners need to reciprocate.

Getting shot of Pengelly, Dodds and even Robinson would be some going.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 04, 2019, 10:14:24 AM
The defeat of the pontificating Dodds and consigning him to the dustbin of history would be some achievement.
If SF don't reciprocate I think it'll will do them some harm in NB as those SDLP voters that they should pick up, might just stay at home.

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: sensethetone on November 04, 2019, 10:19:37 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 04, 2019, 10:10:51 AM
Quote from: marty34 on November 04, 2019, 09:17:06 AM
Fair play to Nicola Mallon - that's leadership.  They've made this decision unilaterally i.e. no contact with other parties.

Be interesting to see how the numbers stack up.

I take it no 'dissidents' will be voting!

Ahem, Nicola said on the radio this morning that Michelle was on the phone a week or so ago but nothing was agreed formally and no "pacts" were in place.

I think its sensible politics from the SDLP and if Eastwood does take a seat in Foyle then no harm done IMO.
Shinners need to reciprocate.

Getting shot of Pengelly, Dodds and even Robinson would be some going.

Imagine Nolan/Talk-Back dropping Nelson McCausland as "commentator" because they can have Nigel Dodds.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: RedHand88 on November 04, 2019, 10:21:26 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 04, 2019, 01:12:11 AM
Quote from: Rois on November 04, 2019, 12:53:48 AM
SDLP not standing in N Belfast, not in East or North Down. Smart decision, SF likely to reciprocate in South Belfast. SF need to play a smart campaign in NB now and go full on anti-DUP.

Are they?

Yes.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 04, 2019, 11:00:35 AM
It's getting nasty in North Belfast it's going to be a crazy few weeks there I imagine!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 04, 2019, 11:05:19 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on November 04, 2019, 10:21:26 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 04, 2019, 01:12:11 AM
Quote from: Rois on November 04, 2019, 12:53:48 AM
SDLP not standing in N Belfast, not in East or North Down. Smart decision, SF likely to reciprocate in South Belfast. SF need to play a smart campaign in NB now and go full on anti-DUP.

Are they?

Yes.

It would be great to see the back of that witch Pengelly. An out and out bigot who should have never been near a seat.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 04, 2019, 11:17:00 AM
Farage not having the balls to stand in a constituency himself speaks volumes that the Brexit Party may have run it's race.

But we'll have to wait and see where they can do damage to someone else as they're not likely to get one MP in a FPTP election it seems.

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: WT4E on November 04, 2019, 11:24:13 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 04, 2019, 10:10:51 AM
Quote from: marty34 on November 04, 2019, 09:17:06 AM
Fair play to Nicola Mallon - that's leadership.  They've made this decision unilaterally i.e. no contact with other parties.

Be interesting to see how the numbers stack up.

I take it no 'dissidents' will be voting!

Ahem, Nicola said on the radio this morning that Michelle was on the phone a week or so ago but nothing was agreed formally and no "pacts" were in place.

I think its sensible politics from the SDLP and if Eastwood does take a seat in Foyle then no harm done IMO.
Shinners need to reciprocate.

Getting shot of Pengelly, Dodds and even Robinson would be some going.

I believe this will happen! Be great
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 04, 2019, 12:10:45 PM
Quote from: WT4E on November 04, 2019, 11:24:13 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 04, 2019, 10:10:51 AM
Quote from: marty34 on November 04, 2019, 09:17:06 AM
Fair play to Nicola Mallon - that's leadership.  They've made this decision unilaterally i.e. no contact with other parties.

Be interesting to see how the numbers stack up.

I take it no 'dissidents' will be voting!

Ahem, Nicola said on the radio this morning that Michelle was on the phone a week or so ago but nothing was agreed formally and no "pacts" were in place.

I think its sensible politics from the SDLP and if Eastwood does take a seat in Foyle then no harm done IMO.
Shinners need to reciprocate.

Getting shot of Pengelly, Dodds and even Robinson would be some going.

I believe this will happen! Be great

Sinn Fein are stepping down in all 3 seats!!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: ziggysego on November 04, 2019, 12:19:49 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 04, 2019, 12:10:45 PM
Quote from: WT4E on November 04, 2019, 11:24:13 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 04, 2019, 10:10:51 AM
Quote from: marty34 on November 04, 2019, 09:17:06 AM
Fair play to Nicola Mallon - that's leadership.  They've made this decision unilaterally i.e. no contact with other parties.

Be interesting to see how the numbers stack up.

I take it no 'dissidents' will be voting!

Ahem, Nicola said on the radio this morning that Michelle was on the phone a week or so ago but nothing was agreed formally and no "pacts" were in place.

I think its sensible politics from the SDLP and if Eastwood does take a seat in Foyle then no harm done IMO.
Shinners need to reciprocate.

Getting shot of Pengelly, Dodds and even Robinson would be some going.

I believe this will happen! Be great

Sinn Fein are stepping down in all 3 seats!!

Still standing against Dobbs in North Belfast, but stepping down in North Down. 
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 04, 2019, 12:22:45 PM
Sorry you're right they're stepping aside in N Down/E Belfast/S Belfast.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 04, 2019, 12:23:47 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on November 04, 2019, 12:19:49 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 04, 2019, 12:10:45 PM
Quote from: WT4E on November 04, 2019, 11:24:13 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 04, 2019, 10:10:51 AM
Quote from: marty34 on November 04, 2019, 09:17:06 AM
Fair play to Nicola Mallon - that's leadership.  They've made this decision unilaterally i.e. no contact with other parties.

Be interesting to see how the numbers stack up.

I take it no 'dissidents' will be voting!

Ahem, Nicola said on the radio this morning that Michelle was on the phone a week or so ago but nothing was agreed formally and no "pacts" were in place.

I think its sensible politics from the SDLP and if Eastwood does take a seat in Foyle then no harm done IMO.
Shinners need to reciprocate.

Getting shot of Pengelly, Dodds and even Robinson would be some going.

I believe this will happen! Be great

Sinn Fein are stepping down in all 3 seats!!

Still standing against Dobbs in North Belfast, but stepping down in North Down.

Well with the SDLP also standing down in North Belfast, you'd like to think the Shinners would have the decency to give it a good rattle.

The DUP/UDA vote will certainly be energised by these pacts so it's really up to the nationalists to get the finger out and vote.

Shít, I might even have to vote for my old neighbour in Kelly (McGrattan) Armstrong even if she hasn't a snowball's chance in hell of getting rid of Jim the Pig Shannon.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 04, 2019, 12:32:18 PM
Could do with Alliance stepping down/not really trying in North Down then you would think Lady Sylvia will get through handy enough based on the Leave/Remain statistics.

North Belfast is going to be a straight shootout between SF and DUP.

S Belfast similar to North Down you would think Claire Hanna will win that handy enough especially with No SF.

East Belfast has very little chance of voting in Naomi I don't think based on last general election and the Leave/Remain figures I can't see it happening.

A 3 seat drop for DUP would be bad are there any others in play?? I know SF/SDLP will have a close contest in Foyle but is there anywhere else that's vulnerable for anyone?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 04, 2019, 12:35:42 PM
They really are the DUP/UDA now too. Nailed their colours to the mast.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on November 04, 2019, 12:38:55 PM
I was ahead of the times as usual ;D
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: JohnDenver on November 04, 2019, 12:39:41 PM
Will Alliance put a hard push on canvassing in NB and SB especially? Or will it be a token effort, to allow them to justify their claim of not entering into pacts and running in every constituency.

I think Naomi Long alluded on twitter to the electorate being intelligent enough to vote for themselves, so hopefully this is the case and the DUP can be wiped from those two seats.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rois on November 04, 2019, 12:43:40 PM
5 most marginal seats last time were Foyle, FST, North Down, North Belfast and South Belfast.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Ambrose on November 04, 2019, 12:45:27 PM
Sinn Féin will not contest South Belfast, East Belfast or North Down constituencies.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: weareros on November 04, 2019, 12:46:00 PM
Quote from: JohnDenver on November 04, 2019, 12:39:41 PM
Will Alliance put a hard push on canvassing in NB and SB especially? Or will it be a token effort, to allow them to justify their claim of not entering into pacts and running in every constituency.

I think Naomi Long alluded on twitter to the electorate being intelligent enough to vote for themselves, so hopefully this is the case and the DUP can be wiped from those two seats.

I think it is better the Alliance remaining in both NB and SB as they will mop up moderate Unionist votes that would not go green.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 04, 2019, 12:48:18 PM
What was the numbers at the last election in NB?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 04, 2019, 12:50:20 PM
Just saw a thing on twitter about a banner on the shankill re Finucane and his family. It wasn't exactly very tasteful. This is going to get nasty.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 04, 2019, 12:53:10 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 04, 2019, 12:29:54 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse.

You'll not getting an argument from me on that front.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: RedHand88 on November 04, 2019, 01:05:30 PM
Quote from: marty34 on November 04, 2019, 12:48:18 PM
What was the numbers at the last election in NB?

21240 Dodds
19159 Finucane

There were 2k SDLP votes last time which are now up for grabs . It's very much in play.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Ambrose on November 04, 2019, 01:08:03 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on November 04, 2019, 01:05:30 PM
Quote from: marty34 on November 04, 2019, 12:48:18 PM
What was the numbers at the last election in NB?

21240 Dodds
19159 Finucane

There were 2k SDLP votes last time which are now up for grabs . It's very much in play.

It just comes down to a good old sectarian head count.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on November 04, 2019, 01:09:15 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 04, 2019, 12:29:54 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: TheOptimist on November 04, 2019, 01:11:18 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on November 04, 2019, 01:05:30 PM
Quote from: marty34 on November 04, 2019, 12:48:18 PM
What was the numbers at the last election in NB?

21240 Dodds
19159 Finucane

There were 2k SDLP votes last time which are now up for grabs . It's very much in play.

Even if SF had got all the SDLP votes they would have still lost by 23
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: TheOptimist on November 04, 2019, 01:11:48 PM
Quote from: Ambrose on November 04, 2019, 01:08:03 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on November 04, 2019, 01:05:30 PM
Quote from: marty34 on November 04, 2019, 12:48:18 PM
What was the numbers at the last election in NB?

21240 Dodds
19159 Finucane

There were 2k SDLP votes last time which are now up for grabs . It's very much in play.

It just comes down to a good old sectarian head count.

There is nothing sectarian about my dislike of the DUP
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 04, 2019, 01:27:03 PM
Quote from: TheOptimist on November 04, 2019, 01:11:18 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on November 04, 2019, 01:05:30 PM
Quote from: marty34 on November 04, 2019, 12:48:18 PM
What was the numbers at the last election in NB?

21240 Dodds
19159 Finucane

There were 2k SDLP votes last time which are now up for grabs . It's very much in play.

Even if SF had got all the SDLP votes they would have still lost by 23

SF might get some 23 'soft' Alliance votes and it'll be a draw.

Free kicks or penalties then????
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: t_mac on November 04, 2019, 01:40:52 PM
Quote from: TheOptimist on November 04, 2019, 01:11:18 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on November 04, 2019, 01:05:30 PM
Quote from: marty34 on November 04, 2019, 12:48:18 PM
What was the numbers at the last election in NB?

21240 Dodds
19159 Finucane

There were 2k SDLP votes last time which are now up for grabs . It's very much in play.

Even if SF had got all the SDLP votes they would have still lost by 23


I doubt the majority of SDLP voters will switch to the shinners.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 04, 2019, 01:43:56 PM
Quote from: t_mac on November 04, 2019, 01:40:52 PM
Quote from: TheOptimist on November 04, 2019, 01:11:18 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on November 04, 2019, 01:05:30 PM
Quote from: marty34 on November 04, 2019, 12:48:18 PM
What was the numbers at the last election in NB?

21240 Dodds
19159 Finucane

There were 2k SDLP votes last time which are now up for grabs . It's very much in play.

Even if SF had got all the SDLP votes they would have still lost by 23


I doubt the majority of SDLP voters will switch to the shinners.

2 things here:

1. Pro EU candidate.
2. Give Dodds his P45

By the way, you could switch the 1 and 2 around.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: t_mac on November 04, 2019, 01:47:09 PM
3.  Sinn Féin is utterly useless and doesn't represent anyone but their own self interests.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: 6th sam on November 04, 2019, 01:49:53 PM
Quote from: TheOptimist on November 04, 2019, 01:11:48 PM
Quote from: Ambrose on November 04, 2019, 01:08:03 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on November 04, 2019, 01:05:30 PM
Quote from: marty34 on November 04, 2019, 12:48:18 PM
What was the numbers at the last election in NB?

21240 Dodds
19159 Finucane

There were 2k SDLP votes last time which are now up for grabs . It's very much in play.

It just comes down to a good old sectarian head count.

There is nothing sectarian about my dislike of the DUP

This is an absolutely crucial message , voting for Finucane is an anti-sectarian vote . He has proved himself as intelligent and likeable  , trying hard to break down barriers. DOdds and the DUP never show any generosity and the u-turn by alleged remainer  Aiken under pressure from the UDA betrays yet again , that some unionists still just can't countenance having a "fenian about the place".
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: 6th sam on November 04, 2019, 01:56:04 PM
Quote from: t_mac on November 04, 2019, 01:47:09 PM
3.  Sinn Féin is utterly useless and doesn't represent anyone but their own self interests.

Criticise SF all you like, but no matter how "useless" they are, the most pragmatic approach  to ensure having less Brexit votes in Westminster is crucial . Handing Dodds and his band of bigots their P45 is an opportunity not to be missed. And that's a strongly anti-sectarian viewpoint . All nationalists and anyone else who has been on the receiving end of these dinosaurs ( ie most of the population) , May never get a better opportunity to drive that anti-sectarian message home.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Dougal Maguire on November 04, 2019, 01:58:11 PM
Quote from: Ambrose on November 04, 2019, 01:08:03 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on November 04, 2019, 01:05:30 PM
Quote from: marty34 on November 04, 2019, 12:48:18 PM
What was the numbers at the last election in NB?

21240 Dodds
19159 Finucane

There were 2k SDLP votes last time which are now up for grabs . It's very much in play.

It just comes down to a good old sectarian head count.
I don't see it that way. The fact that both nationalist parties are stepping aside in North Down and East Belfast means it can't be viewed as that. Also the fact that both will contest Fermanagh and South Tyrone also means that unlike the DUP/UUP arrangement this isn't a sectarian head count
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: uimhr ocht on November 04, 2019, 02:16:15 PM
How many votes did sinn fein get in last election in south,east,belfast and in north down?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: t_mac on November 04, 2019, 02:23:52 PM
Quote from: uimhr ocht on November 04, 2019, 02:16:15 PM
How many votes did sinn fein get in last election in south,east,belfast and in north down?

You are on the internet and you can't look that up?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: bogball88 on November 04, 2019, 02:24:38 PM
Quote from: uimhr ocht on November 04, 2019, 02:16:15 PM
How many votes did sinn fein get in last election in south,east,belfast and in north down?
Approx 7k in South Belfast. Other 2 a couple of hundred
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Farrandeelin on November 04, 2019, 02:50:01 PM
Quote from: t_mac on November 04, 2019, 02:23:52 PM
Quote from: uimhr ocht on November 04, 2019, 02:16:15 PM
How many votes did sinn fein get in last election in south,east,belfast and in north down?

You are on the internet and you can't look that up?

You're as bad as Syferus was.

Good move by the 2 nationalist parties. I imagine N Belfast will be very, very ugly.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 04, 2019, 02:57:58 PM
It's already started. I would say Finucane would need to step up his security arrangements.There is a lot of bad blood already. (Well done DUP)
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: t_mac on November 04, 2019, 03:33:17 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on November 04, 2019, 02:50:01 PM
Quote from: t_mac on November 04, 2019, 02:23:52 PM
Quote from: uimhr ocht on November 04, 2019, 02:16:15 PM
How many votes did sinn fein get in last election in south,east,belfast and in north down?

You are on the internet and you can't look that up?

You're as bad as Syferus was.

Good move by the 2 nationalist parties. I imagine N Belfast will be very, very ugly.

Why because someone can't be arsed looking something up, hardly rocket science, he made the effort to post here - go mental and google the information.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on November 04, 2019, 03:48:02 PM
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on November 04, 2019, 01:09:15 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 04, 2019, 12:29:54 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Main Street on November 04, 2019, 08:17:01 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 04, 2019, 03:48:02 PM
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on November 04, 2019, 01:09:15 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 04, 2019, 12:29:54 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.
Johnson is a babtised catholic, allegedly free from original sin.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 06:35:23 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 04, 2019, 03:48:02 PM
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on November 04, 2019, 01:09:15 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 04, 2019, 12:29:54 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.

When and where did you make that one up?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: omaghjoe on November 05, 2019, 07:10:57 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 06:35:23 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 04, 2019, 03:48:02 PM
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on November 04, 2019, 01:09:15 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 04, 2019, 12:29:54 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.

When and where did you make that one up?

A quick google should tell you that although the law is not fully explicit for PM there is something to it....
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: LooseCannon on November 05, 2019, 07:46:29 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 05, 2019, 07:10:57 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 06:35:23 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 04, 2019, 03:48:02 PM
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on November 04, 2019, 01:09:15 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 04, 2019, 12:29:54 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.

When and where did you make that one up?

A quick google should tell you that although the law is not fully explicit for PM there is something to it....

The law was only changed in the last couple of years methinks. Was the same for the line of succession to the throne (or whatever it's called) until around the same time.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 05, 2019, 09:23:14 AM
Greens stepping aside in South Belfast too. . . Based on the last election Hannah should walk it without SF and the Greens there!!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Main Street on November 05, 2019, 09:24:20 AM
There were no laws prohibiting a catholic from being UK pm, at least not in the 20c. Blair did not convert while in offfice for obvious reasons, not for some mysterious legal obstacle. Those reasons probably more to do with the publicity / prejudice around such a high profile conversion would be a distraction and dark forces such as the NI  unionists would seek to make political capital out of it.
Johnson is a catholic, why is that being ignored here?
Strange as it may seem  considering England was the source of Imperialism with its institutionalized racism and sadistic cruelty, I don't think religion is an issue in political life in England.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 05, 2019, 09:31:26 AM
 Well the Labour Party is in a right fix about the Jewish question, so maybe there is an issue in political life in England surrounding religion.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 09:58:02 AM
Quote from: LooseCannon on November 05, 2019, 07:46:29 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 05, 2019, 07:10:57 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 06:35:23 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 04, 2019, 03:48:02 PM
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on November 04, 2019, 01:09:15 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 04, 2019, 12:29:54 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.

When and where did you make that one up?

A quick google should tell you that although the law is not fully explicit for PM there is something to it....

The law was only changed in the last couple of years methinks. Was the same for the line of succession to the throne (or whatever it's called) until around the same time.

They say it was changed recently. Maybe the anti-catholic stance has diminished (on the surface) in Britain, but the House of Lords has COE leaders only in it. No influence from Catholicism. The idea is that having Catholics around the place advising the government and royalty and pushing their Vatican dogma, we'll we couldn't have that, could we?

Anyway, I wouldn't be fooled by the removal of the Catholic monarch/PM thing. Britain from the top, is as still sectarian as anything you'd have seen at the time of Henry 8 or the setup of Guy Fawkes.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 05, 2019, 09:58:50 AM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 05, 2019, 09:31:26 AM
Well the Labour Party is in a right fix about the Jewish question, so maybe there is an issue in political life in England surrounding religion.

Or is that the Israeli question?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on November 05, 2019, 10:55:35 AM
Quote from: screenexile on November 05, 2019, 09:23:14 AM
Greens stepping aside in South Belfast too. . . Based on the last election Hannah should walk it without SF and the Greens there!!

Great stuff good riddance to ELP
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: gallsman on November 05, 2019, 11:00:23 AM
Quote from: Main Street on November 05, 2019, 09:24:20 AM

Johnson is a catholic, why is that being ignored here?

Is he? He was baptized one but confirmed as Anglican.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 05, 2019, 11:09:55 AM
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on November 05, 2019, 10:55:35 AM
Quote from: screenexile on November 05, 2019, 09:23:14 AM
Greens stepping aside in South Belfast too. . . Based on the last election Hannah should walk it without SF and the Greens there!!

Great stuff good riddance to ELP

Excellent news - 1 less DUP bigot.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 05, 2019, 11:58:43 AM
Hopefully but not going to get too carried away until it actually happens.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: mouview on November 05, 2019, 12:16:05 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 09:58:02 AM
Quote from: LooseCannon on November 05, 2019, 07:46:29 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 05, 2019, 07:10:57 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 06:35:23 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 04, 2019, 03:48:02 PM
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on November 04, 2019, 01:09:15 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 04, 2019, 12:29:54 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.

When and where did you make that one up?

A quick google should tell you that although the law is not fully explicit for PM there is something to it....

The law was only changed in the last couple of years methinks. Was the same for the line of succession to the throne (or whatever it's called) until around the same time.

They say it was changed recently. Maybe the anti-catholic stance has diminished (on the surface) in Britain, but the House of Lords has COE leaders only in it. No influence from Catholicism. The idea is that having Catholics around the place advising the government and royalty and pushing their Vatican dogma, we'll we couldn't have that, could we?

Anyway, I wouldn't be fooled by the removal of the Catholic monarch/PM thing. Britain from the top, is as still sectarian as anything you'd have seen at the time of Henry 8 or the setup of Guy Fawkes.

Duchess of Kent was received into the Catholic church in 1994. Both Jacob Rees Mogg and Ian Duncan Smith are Catholics.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 12:21:25 PM
Quote from: mouview on November 05, 2019, 12:16:05 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 09:58:02 AM
Quote from: LooseCannon on November 05, 2019, 07:46:29 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 05, 2019, 07:10:57 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 06:35:23 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 04, 2019, 03:48:02 PM
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on November 04, 2019, 01:09:15 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 04, 2019, 12:29:54 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.

When and where did you make that one up?

A quick google should tell you that although the law is not fully explicit for PM there is something to it....

The law was only changed in the last couple of years methinks. Was the same for the line of succession to the throne (or whatever it's called) until around the same time.

They say it was changed recently. Maybe the anti-catholic stance has diminished (on the surface) in Britain, but the House of Lords has COE leaders only in it. No influence from Catholicism. The idea is that having Catholics around the place advising the government and royalty and pushing their Vatican dogma, we'll we couldn't have that, could we?

Anyway, I wouldn't be fooled by the removal of the Catholic monarch/PM thing. Britain from the top, is as still sectarian as anything you'd have seen at the time of Henry 8 or the setup of Guy Fawkes.

Duchess of Kent was received into the Catholic church in 1994. Both Jacob Rees Mogg and Ian Duncan Smith are Catholics.

None of them are PM or monarch though.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: mouview on November 05, 2019, 12:34:18 PM
JRM is very (too) influential and IDS was Tory leader for a number of years, so could have led the country.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 05, 2019, 12:47:48 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 12:21:25 PM
Quote from: mouview on November 05, 2019, 12:16:05 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 09:58:02 AM
Quote from: LooseCannon on November 05, 2019, 07:46:29 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 05, 2019, 07:10:57 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 06:35:23 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 04, 2019, 03:48:02 PM
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on November 04, 2019, 01:09:15 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 04, 2019, 12:29:54 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.

When and where did you make that one up?

A quick google should tell you that although the law is not fully explicit for PM there is something to it....

The law was only changed in the last couple of years methinks. Was the same for the line of succession to the throne (or whatever it's called) until around the same time.

They say it was changed recently. Maybe the anti-catholic stance has diminished (on the surface) in Britain, but the House of Lords has COE leaders only in it. No influence from Catholicism. The idea is that having Catholics around the place advising the government and royalty and pushing their Vatican dogma, we'll we couldn't have that, could we?

Anyway, I wouldn't be fooled by the removal of the Catholic monarch/PM thing. Britain from the top, is as still sectarian as anything you'd have seen at the time of Henry 8 or the setup of Guy Fawkes.

Duchess of Kent was received into the Catholic church in 1994. Both Jacob Rees Mogg and Ian Duncan Smith are Catholics.

None of them are PM or monarch though.

This is nonsense
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on November 05, 2019, 01:03:46 PM
That "Duchess" had to renounce any claim to the Monarchy even though she was about 40th in line for it.
ReesMogg and Duncan Smith are some examples of English Catholics!!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: weareros on November 05, 2019, 01:39:03 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 05, 2019, 01:03:46 PM
That "Duchess" had to renounce any claim to the Monarchy even though she was about 40th in line for it.
ReesMogg and Duncan Smith are some examples of English Catholics!!

I don't have much time for religion anymore but my impression is your average English anglican is to a Catholic what a pig is to a swine, feck all difference. They are a different breed to the fundamentalist crew we were saddled with up in the North.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 05, 2019, 01:44:05 PM
The path is now clear for Clare Hanna in South Belfast and I think Pengelly is toast there now. If Alliance had stepped down in North Belfast I think Dodds would have been under some pressure there also. I wonder though might the UDA throwing their might behind the Dodds campaign backfire slightly on them. There will be soft unionists and middle of the road voters who would not countenance a vote for a candidate who has had a paramilitary organisation help ward off rival candidates from standing.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 02:42:42 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 05, 2019, 12:47:48 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 12:21:25 PM
Quote from: mouview on November 05, 2019, 12:16:05 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 09:58:02 AM
Quote from: LooseCannon on November 05, 2019, 07:46:29 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 05, 2019, 07:10:57 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 06:35:23 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 04, 2019, 03:48:02 PM
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on November 04, 2019, 01:09:15 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 04, 2019, 12:29:54 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.

When and where did you make that one up?

A quick google should tell you that although the law is not fully explicit for PM there is something to it....

The law was only changed in the last couple of years methinks. Was the same for the line of succession to the throne (or whatever it's called) until around the same time.

They say it was changed recently. Maybe the anti-catholic stance has diminished (on the surface) in Britain, but the House of Lords has COE leaders only in it. No influence from Catholicism. The idea is that having Catholics around the place advising the government and royalty and pushing their Vatican dogma, we'll we couldn't have that, could we?

Anyway, I wouldn't be fooled by the removal of the Catholic monarch/PM thing. Britain from the top, is as still sectarian as anything you'd have seen at the time of Henry 8 or the setup of Guy Fawkes.

Duchess of Kent was received into the Catholic church in 1994. Both Jacob Rees Mogg and Ian Duncan Smith are Catholics.

None of them are PM or monarch though.

This is nonsense

Britain is a Protestant country from the top down. Nothing nonsense about it.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 05, 2019, 03:09:29 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 02:42:42 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 05, 2019, 12:47:48 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 12:21:25 PM
Quote from: mouview on November 05, 2019, 12:16:05 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 09:58:02 AM
Quote from: LooseCannon on November 05, 2019, 07:46:29 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 05, 2019, 07:10:57 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 06:35:23 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 04, 2019, 03:48:02 PM
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on November 04, 2019, 01:09:15 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 04, 2019, 12:29:54 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.

When and where did you make that one up?

A quick google should tell you that although the law is not fully explicit for PM there is something to it....

The law was only changed in the last couple of years methinks. Was the same for the line of succession to the throne (or whatever it's called) until around the same time.

They say it was changed recently. Maybe the anti-catholic stance has diminished (on the surface) in Britain, but the House of Lords has COE leaders only in it. No influence from Catholicism. The idea is that having Catholics around the place advising the government and royalty and pushing their Vatican dogma, we'll we couldn't have that, could we?

Anyway, I wouldn't be fooled by the removal of the Catholic monarch/PM thing. Britain from the top, is as still sectarian as anything you'd have seen at the time of Henry 8 or the setup of Guy Fawkes.

Duchess of Kent was received into the Catholic church in 1994. Both Jacob Rees Mogg and Ian Duncan Smith are Catholics.

None of them are PM or monarch though.

This is nonsense

Britain is a Protestant country from the top down. Nothing nonsense about it.

So you can't be a Catholic and PM. Is that what you are saying?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 05, 2019, 03:25:42 PM
One thing about this GE is it will give a good indication of where we are at for a border poll.

Unionists on an aggressive get out the vote campaign so should be interesting to see the results with them probably maximising their turnout!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 03:44:18 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 05, 2019, 03:09:29 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 02:42:42 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 05, 2019, 12:47:48 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 12:21:25 PM
Quote from: mouview on November 05, 2019, 12:16:05 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 09:58:02 AM
Quote from: LooseCannon on November 05, 2019, 07:46:29 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 05, 2019, 07:10:57 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 06:35:23 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 04, 2019, 03:48:02 PM
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on November 04, 2019, 01:09:15 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 04, 2019, 12:29:54 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.

When and where did you make that one up?

A quick google should tell you that although the law is not fully explicit for PM there is something to it....

The law was only changed in the last couple of years methinks. Was the same for the line of succession to the throne (or whatever it's called) until around the same time.

They say it was changed recently. Maybe the anti-catholic stance has diminished (on the surface) in Britain, but the House of Lords has COE leaders only in it. No influence from Catholicism. The idea is that having Catholics around the place advising the government and royalty and pushing their Vatican dogma, we'll we couldn't have that, could we?

Anyway, I wouldn't be fooled by the removal of the Catholic monarch/PM thing. Britain from the top, is as still sectarian as anything you'd have seen at the time of Henry 8 or the setup of Guy Fawkes.

Duchess of Kent was received into the Catholic church in 1994. Both Jacob Rees Mogg and Ian Duncan Smith are Catholics.

None of them are PM or monarch though.

This is nonsense

Britain is a Protestant country from the top down. Nothing nonsense about it.

So you can't be a Catholic and PM. Is that what you are saying?

Well, it was the case. They might have tweaked that law, but still, Blair didn't convert until after he was British PM, so obviously there is still an issue with it.

The Q is head of the COE, and all things parliament has to be approved by her. Plus, no input from any but Protestant clerics in House of Lords says everything.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: omaghjoe on November 05, 2019, 03:53:51 PM
Any word of reciprocal moves from Alliance in South Belfast/ North Down, couldn't see them doing it in NB TBF.

Would have thought the Green's would withdraw in North Down and East Belfast also.

Could Upper Bann be in play at all for a pact?

Or even South Antrim to help out UU they prob burnt that bridge by withdrawing from NB?


Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 05, 2019, 04:48:11 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 05, 2019, 03:53:51 PM
Any word of reciprocal moves from Alliance in South Belfast/ North Down, couldn't see them doing it in NB TBF.

Would have thought the Green's would withdraw in North Down and East Belfast also.

Could Upper Bann be in play at all for a pact?

Or even South Antrim to help out UU they prob burnt that bridge by withdrawing from NB?

Is Paula Bradshaw not standing in south Belfast?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 05, 2019, 04:57:23 PM
Think Alliance are contesting all seats except possible North Down but they haven't made a call on that yet.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on November 05, 2019, 04:58:53 PM
Quote from: marty34 on November 05, 2019, 04:48:11 PM
Is Paula Bradshaw not standing in south Belfast?

Posters are up anyway...
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on November 05, 2019, 05:07:23 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 05, 2019, 03:53:51 PM
Any word of reciprocal moves from Alliance in South Belfast/ North Down, couldn't see them doing it in NB TBF.

Would have thought the Green's would withdraw in North Down and East Belfast also.

Could Upper Bann be in play at all for a pact?

Or even South Antrim to help out UU they prob burnt that bridge by withdrawing from NB?

Couldn't see it. Results from 2017 general election:

DUP 43.5%
SF 27.9%
UUP 15.4%
SDLP 8.6%
Alliance 4.5%
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rois on November 05, 2019, 05:44:16 PM
Alliance definitely not pulling out.

SDLP running a relative unknown in FST and in South Down.  Playing a very realistic and sensible campaign. 
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 05, 2019, 05:49:11 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on November 05, 2019, 04:58:53 PM
Quote from: marty34 on November 05, 2019, 04:48:11 PM
Is Paula Bradshaw not standing in south Belfast?

Posters are up anyway...

Looks like Hanna is the go to & she will unseat that bitter piece of shit that we currently have for an MP. Naomi Long ought to have had some guts the other day, rather than waffling.  If Alliance had pulled Bradshaw, they could have put all their resources into flooding East Belfast & getting in there again.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 05, 2019, 05:58:18 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 05, 2019, 05:07:23 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 05, 2019, 03:53:51 PM
Any word of reciprocal moves from Alliance in South Belfast/ North Down, couldn't see them doing it in NB TBF.

Would have thought the Green's would withdraw in North Down and East Belfast also.

Could Upper Bann be in play at all for a pact?

Or even South Antrim to help out UU they prob burnt that bridge by withdrawing from NB?

Couldn't see it. Results from 2017 general election:

DUP 43.5%
SF 27.9%
UUP 15.4%
SDLP 8.6%
Alliance 4.5%

The DUP Brexit result is atrocious. I wouldn't rule out a backlash
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 05, 2019, 06:13:36 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 05, 2019, 05:49:11 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on November 05, 2019, 04:58:53 PM
Quote from: marty34 on November 05, 2019, 04:48:11 PM
Is Paula Bradshaw not standing in south Belfast?

Posters are up anyway...

Looks like Hanna is the go to & she will unseat that bitter piece of shit that we currently have for an MP. Naomi Long ought to have had some guts the other day, rather than waffling.  If Alliance had pulled Bradshaw, they could have put all their resources into flooding East Belfast & getting in there again.

After this election, do you reckon there'll be another election next year?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 05, 2019, 06:30:53 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 05, 2019, 05:58:18 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 05, 2019, 05:07:23 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 05, 2019, 03:53:51 PM
Any word of reciprocal moves from Alliance in South Belfast/ North Down, couldn't see them doing it in NB TBF.

Would have thought the Green's would withdraw in North Down and East Belfast also.

Could Upper Bann be in play at all for a pact?

Or even South Antrim to help out UU they prob burnt that bridge by withdrawing from NB?

Couldn't see it. Results from 2017 general election:

DUP 43.5%
SF 27.9%
UUP 15.4%
SDLP 8.6%
Alliance 4.5%

The DUP Brexit result is atrocious. I wouldn't rule out a backlash

I would. Areas like this and north Antrim won't change.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 06:39:54 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 05, 2019, 07:10:57 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 06:35:23 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 04, 2019, 03:48:02 PM
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on November 04, 2019, 01:09:15 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 04, 2019, 12:29:54 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.

When and where did you make that one up?

A quick google should tell you that although the law is not fully explicit for PM there is something to it....

I can google alright. My question to bennycake still stands?
My question to you is what is this law that you are referencing about a catholic's eligibility to be PM?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 06:41:19 PM
Quote from: LooseCannon on November 05, 2019, 07:46:29 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 05, 2019, 07:10:57 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 06:35:23 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 04, 2019, 03:48:02 PM
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on November 04, 2019, 01:09:15 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 04, 2019, 12:29:54 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.

When and where did you make that one up?

A quick google should tell you that although the law is not fully explicit for PM there is something to it....

The law was only changed in the last couple of years methinks. Was the same for the line of succession to the throne (or whatever it's called) until around the same time.

What law was changed?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 06:46:36 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 09:58:02 AM
Quote from: LooseCannon on November 05, 2019, 07:46:29 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 05, 2019, 07:10:57 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 06:35:23 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 04, 2019, 03:48:02 PM
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on November 04, 2019, 01:09:15 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 04, 2019, 12:29:54 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.

When and where did you make that one up?

A quick google should tell you that although the law is not fully explicit for PM there is something to it....

The law was only changed in the last couple of years methinks. Was the same for the line of succession to the throne (or whatever it's called) until around the same time.

They say it was changed recently. Maybe the anti-catholic stance has diminished (on the surface) in Britain, but the House of Lords has COE leaders only in it. No influence from Catholicism. The idea is that having Catholics around the place advising the government and royalty and pushing their Vatican dogma, we'll we couldn't have that, could we?

Anyway, I wouldn't be fooled by the removal of the Catholic monarch/PM thing. Britain from the top, is as still sectarian as anything you'd have seen at the time of Henry 8 or the setup of Guy Fawkes.

Who are "they"?

And are there broad similarities between their backsides and their mid arm joints?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on November 05, 2019, 06:51:10 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 02:42:42 PM
Britain is a Protestant country from the top down. Nothing nonsense about it.

Bunkum. Most people in Britain take nothing to do with religion and wouldn't know a prod from a taig, which is one reason why they find the Troubles so hard to understand. The COE might be the official established church, but there are cults with a bigger following.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 06:53:43 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 06:39:54 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 05, 2019, 07:10:57 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 06:35:23 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 04, 2019, 03:48:02 PM
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on November 04, 2019, 01:09:15 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 04, 2019, 12:29:54 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.

When and where did you make that one up?

A quick google should tell you that although the law is not fully explicit for PM there is something to it....

I can google alright. My question to bennycake still stands?
My question to you is what is this law that you are referencing about a catholic's eligibility to be PM?

I didn't make it up
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 06:54:12 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 03:44:18 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 05, 2019, 03:09:29 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 02:42:42 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 05, 2019, 12:47:48 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 12:21:25 PM
Quote from: mouview on November 05, 2019, 12:16:05 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 09:58:02 AM
Quote from: LooseCannon on November 05, 2019, 07:46:29 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 05, 2019, 07:10:57 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 06:35:23 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 04, 2019, 03:48:02 PM
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on November 04, 2019, 01:09:15 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 04, 2019, 12:29:54 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.

When and where did you make that one up?

A quick google should tell you that although the law is not fully explicit for PM there is something to it....

The law was only changed in the last couple of years methinks. Was the same for the line of succession to the throne (or whatever it's called) until around the same time.

They say it was changed recently. Maybe the anti-catholic stance has diminished (on the surface) in Britain, but the House of Lords has COE leaders only in it. No influence from Catholicism. The idea is that having Catholics around the place advising the government and royalty and pushing their Vatican dogma, we'll we couldn't have that, could we?

Anyway, I wouldn't be fooled by the removal of the Catholic monarch/PM thing. Britain from the top, is as still sectarian as anything you'd have seen at the time of Henry 8 or the setup of Guy Fawkes.

Duchess of Kent was received into the Catholic church in 1994. Both Jacob Rees Mogg and Ian Duncan Smith are Catholics.

None of them are PM or monarch though.

This is nonsense

Britain is a Protestant country from the top down. Nothing nonsense about it.

So you can't be a Catholic and PM. Is that what you are saying?

Well, it was the case. They might have tweaked that law, but still, Blair didn't convert until after he was British PM, so obviously there is still an issue with it.

The Q is head of the COE, and all things parliament has to be approved by her. Plus, no input from any but Protestant clerics in House of Lords says everything.

When was it the case?
What was the law?
How was it tweaked?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on November 05, 2019, 06:54:20 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on November 05, 2019, 06:30:53 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 05, 2019, 05:58:18 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 05, 2019, 05:07:23 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 05, 2019, 03:53:51 PM
Any word of reciprocal moves from Alliance in South Belfast/ North Down, couldn't see them doing it in NB TBF.

Would have thought the Green's would withdraw in North Down and East Belfast also.

Could Upper Bann be in play at all for a pact?

Or even South Antrim to help out UU they prob burnt that bridge by withdrawing from NB?

Couldn't see it. Results from 2017 general election:

DUP 43.5%
SF 27.9%
UUP 15.4%
SDLP 8.6%
Alliance 4.5%

The DUP Brexit result is atrocious. I wouldn't rule out a backlash

I would. Areas like this and north Antrim won't change.

I agree. Upper Bann is a safe DUP seat. Arlene could blow millions on a half baked heating scheme and the DUP wouldn't lose a single vote. The unionists have more in common with free staters than they care to admit.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 06:55:49 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 02:42:42 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 05, 2019, 12:47:48 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 12:21:25 PM
Quote from: mouview on November 05, 2019, 12:16:05 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 09:58:02 AM
Quote from: LooseCannon on November 05, 2019, 07:46:29 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 05, 2019, 07:10:57 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 06:35:23 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 04, 2019, 03:48:02 PM
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on November 04, 2019, 01:09:15 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 04, 2019, 12:29:54 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.

When and where did you make that one up?

A quick google should tell you that although the law is not fully explicit for PM there is something to it....

The law was only changed in the last couple of years methinks. Was the same for the line of succession to the throne (or whatever it's called) until around the same time.

They say it was changed recently. Maybe the anti-catholic stance has diminished (on the surface) in Britain, but the House of Lords has COE leaders only in it. No influence from Catholicism. The idea is that having Catholics around the place advising the government and royalty and pushing their Vatican dogma, we'll we couldn't have that, could we?

Anyway, I wouldn't be fooled by the removal of the Catholic monarch/PM thing. Britain from the top, is as still sectarian as anything you'd have seen at the time of Henry 8 or the setup of Guy Fawkes.

Duchess of Kent was received into the Catholic church in 1994. Both Jacob Rees Mogg and Ian Duncan Smith are Catholics.

None of them are PM or monarch though.

This is nonsense

Britain is a Protestant country from the top down. Nothing nonsense about it.

Tell the average man on the street outside NI and Scotland that they are a Protestant and they are likely to politely smile and move to the sane side of the street
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 06:58:03 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 06:53:43 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 06:39:54 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 05, 2019, 07:10:57 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 06:35:23 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 04, 2019, 03:48:02 PM
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on November 04, 2019, 01:09:15 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 04, 2019, 12:29:54 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.

When and where did you make that one up?

A quick google should tell you that although the law is not fully explicit for PM there is something to it....

I can google alright. My question to bennycake still stands?
My question to you is what is this law that you are referencing about a catholic's eligibility to be PM?

I didn't make it up

So hit me with the specifics. What is this law you are talking about or should I say around?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 06:58:19 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 06:55:49 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 02:42:42 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 05, 2019, 12:47:48 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 12:21:25 PM
Quote from: mouview on November 05, 2019, 12:16:05 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 09:58:02 AM
Quote from: LooseCannon on November 05, 2019, 07:46:29 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 05, 2019, 07:10:57 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 06:35:23 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 04, 2019, 03:48:02 PM
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on November 04, 2019, 01:09:15 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 04, 2019, 12:29:54 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.

When and where did you make that one up?

A quick google should tell you that although the law is not fully explicit for PM there is something to it....

The law was only changed in the last couple of years methinks. Was the same for the line of succession to the throne (or whatever it's called) until around the same time.

They say it was changed recently. Maybe the anti-catholic stance has diminished (on the surface) in Britain, but the House of Lords has COE leaders only in it. No influence from Catholicism. The idea is that having Catholics around the place advising the government and royalty and pushing their Vatican dogma, we'll we couldn't have that, could we?

Anyway, I wouldn't be fooled by the removal of the Catholic monarch/PM thing. Britain from the top, is as still sectarian as anything you'd have seen at the time of Henry 8 or the setup of Guy Fawkes.

Duchess of Kent was received into the Catholic church in 1994. Both Jacob Rees Mogg and Ian Duncan Smith are Catholics.

None of them are PM or monarch though.

This is nonsense

Britain is a Protestant country from the top down. Nothing nonsense about it.

Tell the average man on the street outside NI and Scotland that they are a Protestant and they are likely to politely smile and move to the sane side of the street

Do you work for the Belfast Telegraph? Shit stirrer.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 06:59:52 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 06:58:19 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 06:55:49 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 02:42:42 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 05, 2019, 12:47:48 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 12:21:25 PM
Quote from: mouview on November 05, 2019, 12:16:05 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 09:58:02 AM
Quote from: LooseCannon on November 05, 2019, 07:46:29 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 05, 2019, 07:10:57 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 06:35:23 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 04, 2019, 03:48:02 PM
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on November 04, 2019, 01:09:15 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 04, 2019, 12:29:54 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.

When and where did you make that one up?

A quick google should tell you that although the law is not fully explicit for PM there is something to it....

The law was only changed in the last couple of years methinks. Was the same for the line of succession to the throne (or whatever it's called) until around the same time.

They say it was changed recently. Maybe the anti-catholic stance has diminished (on the surface) in Britain, but the House of Lords has COE leaders only in it. No influence from Catholicism. The idea is that having Catholics around the place advising the government and royalty and pushing their Vatican dogma, we'll we couldn't have that, could we?

Anyway, I wouldn't be fooled by the removal of the Catholic monarch/PM thing. Britain from the top, is as still sectarian as anything you'd have seen at the time of Henry 8 or the setup of Guy Fawkes.

Duchess of Kent was received into the Catholic church in 1994. Both Jacob Rees Mogg and Ian Duncan Smith are Catholics.

None of them are PM or monarch though.

This is nonsense

Britain is a Protestant country from the top down. Nothing nonsense about it.

Tell the average man on the street outside NI and Scotland that they are a Protestant and they are likely to politely smile and move to the sane side of the street

Do you work for the Belfast Telegraph? Shit stirrer.

No to the first bit and ????? To the second. You get on with answering them questions
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 05, 2019, 07:00:07 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 05, 2019, 05:58:18 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 05, 2019, 05:07:23 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 05, 2019, 03:53:51 PM
Any word of reciprocal moves from Alliance in South Belfast/ North Down, couldn't see them doing it in NB TBF.

Would have thought the Green's would withdraw in North Down and East Belfast also.

Could Upper Bann be in play at all for a pact?

Or even South Antrim to help out UU they prob burnt that bridge by withdrawing from NB?

Couldn't see it. Results from 2017 general election:

DUP 43.5%
SF 27.9%
UUP 15.4%
SDLP 8.6%
Alliance 4.5%

The DUP Brexit result is atrocious. I wouldn't rule out a backlash

I don't think the DUP will lose much in terms of vote in percentage terms. They may even gain votes since I wouldn't underestimate the fear and paranoia that exists within a large part of unionism. They have already begun to frame the election away from Brexit, RHI and their own record in Parliament. It's all about SF bogeymen, pan nationalist alliances, threats to the union and warding off any border poll. They've got the paramilitaries backing but they have simply battened down the hatches and are so inward looking that they are yet again putting short term thinking ahead of everything else.

By a quirke of fate they had a disproportionate influence after the last Westminster election. No matter the outcome for the DUP after the next election in terms of MPs, it is very likely that they will go back to being a minor party in Parliament in terms of having any real influence on Brexit.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 05, 2019, 07:07:57 PM
Quote from: marty34 on November 05, 2019, 06:13:36 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 05, 2019, 05:49:11 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on November 05, 2019, 04:58:53 PM
Quote from: marty34 on November 05, 2019, 04:48:11 PM
Is Paula Bradshaw not standing in south Belfast?

Posters are up anyway...

Looks like Hanna is the go to & she will unseat that bitter piece of shit that we currently have for an MP. Naomi Long ought to have had some guts the other day, rather than waffling.  If Alliance had pulled Bradshaw, they could have put all their resources into flooding East Belfast & getting in there again.

After this election, do you reckon there'll be another election next year?

Yes - latest current date in legislation to call an Assembly election is 13 January 2020. They should have had 2 for price of 1 on 12 December.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 05, 2019, 07:10:40 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on November 05, 2019, 06:30:53 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 05, 2019, 05:58:18 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 05, 2019, 05:07:23 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 05, 2019, 03:53:51 PM
Any word of reciprocal moves from Alliance in South Belfast/ North Down, couldn't see them doing it in NB TBF.

Would have thought the Green's would withdraw in North Down and East Belfast also.

Could Upper Bann be in play at all for a pact?

Or even South Antrim to help out UU they prob burnt that bridge by withdrawing from NB?

Couldn't see it. Results from 2017 general election:

DUP 43.5%
SF 27.9%
UUP 15.4%
SDLP 8.6%
Alliance 4.5%

The DUP Brexit result is atrocious. I wouldn't rule out a backlash

I would. Areas like this and north Antrim won't change.

Not a chance - they'll have a big vote again. Parnonia is huge at the minute.

Some lad on Talkback I think yesterday, said his name was on that letter to Submarine Stevie- he said he was against Brexit and when the interviewer asked his who was he voting for next month....he said the DUP.

I nearly crashed the car.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 05, 2019, 07:18:40 PM
Is there any chance of the RHI inquiry report being published on a totally random date of say, for example, just off the top of the head, Wednesday 11th December, just for a bit of crack???
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 05, 2019, 07:33:36 PM
Tories have made a right pigs ear of today after Boris started well with his letter to Corbyn about his Brexit position.

Rees Mog and then Bridgen both showing they're stupid fucks!! I doubt we'll see much of either of them again the next few weeks!!!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 05, 2019, 08:47:44 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 05, 2019, 07:33:36 PM
Tories have made a right pigs ear of today after Boris started well with his letter to Corbyn about his Brexit position.

Rees Mog and then Bridgen both showing they're stupid f**ks!! I doubt we'll see much of either of them again the next few weeks!!!

I think you will see Labour making ground on the Tories again in this election. Corbyn is a very good campaigner and the Tories have so many MPs in positions of power who simply cannot be trusted that there are bound to be more of these gaffes. I also expect Johnson to get exposed later on in the campaign when he does the debates. When you are a charlatan with no real conviction about anything other than your own personal ambition then you will eventually get found out when scrutinised properly. I don't expect Labour to win the election but it wouldn't surprise me if they have the numbers to form a coalition.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Dougal Maguire on November 05, 2019, 09:07:09 PM
I think that's a fair point. Think they'll do the SDLP damage in both South Belfast, although I think Clare Hanna should win, and Foyle.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on November 05, 2019, 09:29:10 PM
Thanks Fionn. Seems like the only seats in play are East Belfast, South Belfast, North Belfast, South Down, Foyle, FST, South Antrim, and the rest are wrapped up. DUP are a dead cert in 6 seats, SF onto a winner in 4.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 05, 2019, 09:59:43 PM
So based on odds and excluding North Down its 8 x DUP, 6 SF & 2 X SDLP. North Down is a straight shoot out between DUP & Sylvia Hermon.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: ardtole on November 05, 2019, 10:07:59 PM
If sf win north belfast then its dup 7 sf 7. I was reading somewhere today that south antrim is a close call between dup & uup as well.

Not much between dup and alliance in east belfast either, Naomi Long will definitely run Robinson close.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Armagh18 on November 05, 2019, 10:15:09 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on November 05, 2019, 09:12:22 PM
Paddy Power's odds on whom will win each Westminster constituency in NI...


East Belfast

8/13 DUP
5/4 Alliance
33/1 Greens
50/1 UUP
66/1 NI Conservatives

West Belfast

1/200 Sinn Fein
100/1 SDLP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 DUP

South Belfast

2/9 SDLP
7/2 Alliance
6/1 DUP
66/1 Greens
125/1 NI Conservatives
125/1 UUP

North Belfast

4/6 DUP
Evens Sinn Fein
50/1 Greens
66/1 Alliance

East Derry

1/100 DUP
66/1 SDLP
66/1 Sinn Fein
100/1 UUP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 NI Conservatives

Strangford

1/200 DUP
20/1 Alliance
100/1 Sinn Fein
100/1 UUP
100/1 SDLP

South Down

1/4 Sinn Fein
23/10 SDLP
66/1 DUP
100/1 UUP
100/1 Alliance

West Tyrone

1/200 Sinn Fein
50/1 DUP
66/1 SDLP
66/1 UUP
100/1 Alliance

North Antrim

1/200 DUP
50/1 UUP
50/1 Sinn Fein
66/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP

Upper Bann

1/100 DUP
33/1 Sinn Fein
50/1 UUP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP

Newry & Armagh

1/100 Sinn Fein
33/1 DUP
66/1 SDLP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 UUP

East Antrim

1/200 DUP
33/1 Alliance
66/1 Sinn Fein
66/1 UUP
66/1 SDLP
100/1 NI Conservatives
100/1 Greens

Foyle

4/6 SDLP
11/10 Sinn Fein
100/1 DUP
100/1 Alliance

Fermanagh & South Tyrone

8/15 Sinn Fein
11/8 UUP
100/1 Greens
100/1 SDLP
100/1 Alliance

South Antrim

4/7 DUP
13/5 UUP
3/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP
100/1 Sinn Fein

Mid-Ulster

1/100 Sinn Fein
33/1 DUP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP
100/1 UUP

Lagan Valley

1/200 DUP
20/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP
100/1 NI Conservatives
100/1 UUP
100/1 Sinn Fein

North Down

No odds yet published
Best case is
East Belfast Alliance
West Belfast SF
North Belfast SF
South Belfast SDLP
Foyle SF
Newry/Armagh SF
FST SF
North Down Independent
Mid Ulster SF
Lagan Valley DUP
South Antrim DUP
East Antrim DUP
Upper Bann DUP
South Down SF
East Derry DUP
West Tyrone SF
Strangford DUP
Upper Bann DUP

Giving
SF 8
Alliance 1
SDLP 1
Independents 1
And the other vermin 7.

We can but dream.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 05, 2019, 10:17:15 PM
The big unknown is how much damage the DUP's Brexit failure will cost them.
Voters are already pissed off after 9 years of austerity .
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 10:26:30 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on November 05, 2019, 10:15:09 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on November 05, 2019, 09:12:22 PM
Paddy Power's odds on whom will win each Westminster constituency in NI...


East Belfast

8/13 DUP
5/4 Alliance
33/1 Greens
50/1 UUP
66/1 NI Conservatives

West Belfast

1/200 Sinn Fein
100/1 SDLP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 DUP

South Belfast

2/9 SDLP
7/2 Alliance
6/1 DUP
66/1 Greens
125/1 NI Conservatives
125/1 UUP

North Belfast

4/6 DUP
Evens Sinn Fein
50/1 Greens
66/1 Alliance

East Derry

1/100 DUP
66/1 SDLP
66/1 Sinn Fein
100/1 UUP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 NI Conservatives

Strangford

1/200 DUP
20/1 Alliance
100/1 Sinn Fein
100/1 UUP
100/1 SDLP

South Down

1/4 Sinn Fein
23/10 SDLP
66/1 DUP
100/1 UUP
100/1 Alliance

West Tyrone

1/200 Sinn Fein
50/1 DUP
66/1 SDLP
66/1 UUP
100/1 Alliance

North Antrim

1/200 DUP
50/1 UUP
50/1 Sinn Fein
66/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP

Upper Bann

1/100 DUP
33/1 Sinn Fein
50/1 UUP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP

Newry & Armagh

1/100 Sinn Fein
33/1 DUP
66/1 SDLP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 UUP

East Antrim

1/200 DUP
33/1 Alliance
66/1 Sinn Fein
66/1 UUP
66/1 SDLP
100/1 NI Conservatives
100/1 Greens

Foyle

4/6 SDLP
11/10 Sinn Fein
100/1 DUP
100/1 Alliance

Fermanagh & South Tyrone

8/15 Sinn Fein
11/8 UUP
100/1 Greens
100/1 SDLP
100/1 Alliance

South Antrim

4/7 DUP
13/5 UUP
3/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP
100/1 Sinn Fein

Mid-Ulster

1/100 Sinn Fein
33/1 DUP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP
100/1 UUP

Lagan Valley

1/200 DUP
20/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP
100/1 NI Conservatives
100/1 UUP
100/1 Sinn Fein

North Down

No odds yet published
Best case is
East Belfast Alliance
West Belfast SF
North Belfast SF
South Belfast SDLP
Foyle SF
Newry/Armagh SF
FST SF
North Down Independent
Mid Ulster SF
Lagan Valley DUP
South Antrim DUP
East Antrim DUP
Upper Bann DUP
South Down SF
East Derry DUP
West Tyrone SF
Strangford DUP
Upper Bann DUP

Giving
SF 8
Alliance 1
SDLP 1
Independents 1
And the other vermin 7.

We can but dream.

Do you regularly call people "vermin". By all means hold DUP to account for their many failings but have a word with yourself.

Are you sure about Foyle there? How is Elisha doing? Pity Durkan isn't standing again
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 05, 2019, 10:41:06 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 10:26:30 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on November 05, 2019, 10:15:09 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on November 05, 2019, 09:12:22 PM
Paddy Power's odds on whom will win each Westminster constituency in NI...


East Belfast

8/13 DUP
5/4 Alliance
33/1 Greens
50/1 UUP
66/1 NI Conservatives

West Belfast

1/200 Sinn Fein
100/1 SDLP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 DUP

South Belfast

2/9 SDLP
7/2 Alliance
6/1 DUP
66/1 Greens
125/1 NI Conservatives
125/1 UUP

North Belfast

4/6 DUP
Evens Sinn Fein
50/1 Greens
66/1 Alliance

East Derry

1/100 DUP
66/1 SDLP
66/1 Sinn Fein
100/1 UUP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 NI Conservatives

Strangford

1/200 DUP
20/1 Alliance
100/1 Sinn Fein
100/1 UUP
100/1 SDLP

South Down

1/4 Sinn Fein
23/10 SDLP
66/1 DUP
100/1 UUP
100/1 Alliance

West Tyrone

1/200 Sinn Fein
50/1 DUP
66/1 SDLP
66/1 UUP
100/1 Alliance

North Antrim

1/200 DUP
50/1 UUP
50/1 Sinn Fein
66/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP

Upper Bann

1/100 DUP
33/1 Sinn Fein
50/1 UUP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP

Newry & Armagh

1/100 Sinn Fein
33/1 DUP
66/1 SDLP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 UUP

East Antrim

1/200 DUP
33/1 Alliance
66/1 Sinn Fein
66/1 UUP
66/1 SDLP
100/1 NI Conservatives
100/1 Greens

Foyle

4/6 SDLP
11/10 Sinn Fein
100/1 DUP
100/1 Alliance

Fermanagh & South Tyrone

8/15 Sinn Fein
11/8 UUP
100/1 Greens
100/1 SDLP
100/1 Alliance

South Antrim

4/7 DUP
13/5 UUP
3/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP
100/1 Sinn Fein

Mid-Ulster

1/100 Sinn Fein
33/1 DUP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP
100/1 UUP

Lagan Valley

1/200 DUP
20/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP
100/1 NI Conservatives
100/1 UUP
100/1 Sinn Fein

North Down

No odds yet published
Best case is
East Belfast Alliance
West Belfast SF
North Belfast SF
South Belfast SDLP
Foyle SF
Newry/Armagh SF
FST SF
North Down Independent
Mid Ulster SF
Lagan Valley DUP
South Antrim DUP
East Antrim DUP
Upper Bann DUP
South Down SF
East Derry DUP
West Tyrone SF
Strangford DUP
Upper Bann DUP

Giving
SF 8
Alliance 1
SDLP 1
Independents 1
And the other vermin 7.

We can but dream.

Do you regularly call people "vermin". By all means hold DUP to account for their many failings but have a word with yourself.

Are you sure about Foyle there? How is Elisha doing? Pity Durkan isn't standing again

Was mildly surprised to see Colum Eastwood favourite against Elisha McCallion, perhaps Eastwoods higher profile might work in his favour and the fact that he will also take up his seat. Still expect that one to be very close though.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: thewobbler on November 05, 2019, 10:52:43 PM
It's a rather revolting indictment of the 6 counties that 80% of seats are completely and utterly locked up for either the party that would destroy NI through its own greed, and the party who won't represent anyone who votes for it.

We deserve to sink into the sea folks.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on November 05, 2019, 10:54:03 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on November 05, 2019, 10:52:43 PM
It's a rather revolting indictment of the 6 counties that 80% of seats are completely and utterly locked up for either the party that would destroy NI through its own greed, and the party who won't represent anyone who votes for it.

We deserve to sink into the sea folks.

I see it as an indictment of the first-past-the-post system.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: thewobbler on November 05, 2019, 10:55:45 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 05, 2019, 10:54:03 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on November 05, 2019, 10:52:43 PM
It's a rather revolting indictment of the 6 counties that 80% of seats are completely and utterly locked up for either the party that would destroy NI through its own greed, and the party who won't represent anyone who votes for it.

We deserve to sink into the sea folks.

I see it as an indictment of the first-past-the-post system.

It would be the same political party breakdown regardless of how the election is configured.

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: dec on November 05, 2019, 11:18:53 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on November 05, 2019, 10:55:45 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 05, 2019, 10:54:03 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on November 05, 2019, 10:52:43 PM
It's a rather revolting indictment of the 6 counties that 80% of seats are completely and utterly locked up for either the party that would destroy NI through its own greed, and the party who won't represent anyone who votes for it.

We deserve to sink into the sea folks.

I see it as an indictment of the first-past-the-post system.

It would be the same political party breakdown regardless of how the election is configured.



If it was 4-5 multi-member constituencies elected by single transferable vote then it wouldn't be quite the same SF/DUP carve up
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on November 05, 2019, 11:23:31 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 05, 2019, 10:41:06 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 10:26:30 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on November 05, 2019, 10:15:09 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on November 05, 2019, 09:12:22 PM
Paddy Power's odds on whom will win each Westminster constituency in NI...


East Belfast

8/13 DUP
5/4 Alliance
33/1 Greens
50/1 UUP
66/1 NI Conservatives

West Belfast

1/200 Sinn Fein
100/1 SDLP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 DUP

South Belfast

2/9 SDLP
7/2 Alliance
6/1 DUP
66/1 Greens
125/1 NI Conservatives
125/1 UUP

North Belfast

4/6 DUP
Evens Sinn Fein
50/1 Greens
66/1 Alliance

East Derry

1/100 DUP
66/1 SDLP
66/1 Sinn Fein
100/1 UUP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 NI Conservatives

Strangford

1/200 DUP
20/1 Alliance
100/1 Sinn Fein
100/1 UUP
100/1 SDLP

South Down

1/4 Sinn Fein
23/10 SDLP
66/1 DUP
100/1 UUP
100/1 Alliance

West Tyrone

1/200 Sinn Fein
50/1 DUP
66/1 SDLP
66/1 UUP
100/1 Alliance

North Antrim

1/200 DUP
50/1 UUP
50/1 Sinn Fein
66/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP

Upper Bann

1/100 DUP
33/1 Sinn Fein
50/1 UUP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP

Newry & Armagh

1/100 Sinn Fein
33/1 DUP
66/1 SDLP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 UUP

East Antrim

1/200 DUP
33/1 Alliance
66/1 Sinn Fein
66/1 UUP
66/1 SDLP
100/1 NI Conservatives
100/1 Greens

Foyle

4/6 SDLP
11/10 Sinn Fein
100/1 DUP
100/1 Alliance

Fermanagh & South Tyrone

8/15 Sinn Fein
11/8 UUP
100/1 Greens
100/1 SDLP
100/1 Alliance

South Antrim

4/7 DUP
13/5 UUP
3/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP
100/1 Sinn Fein

Mid-Ulster

1/100 Sinn Fein
33/1 DUP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP
100/1 UUP

Lagan Valley

1/200 DUP
20/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP
100/1 NI Conservatives
100/1 UUP
100/1 Sinn Fein

North Down

No odds yet published
Best case is
East Belfast Alliance
West Belfast SF
North Belfast SF
South Belfast SDLP
Foyle SF
Newry/Armagh SF
FST SF
North Down Independent
Mid Ulster SF
Lagan Valley DUP
South Antrim DUP
East Antrim DUP
Upper Bann DUP
South Down SF
East Derry DUP
West Tyrone SF
Strangford DUP
Upper Bann DUP

Giving
SF 8
Alliance 1
SDLP 1
Independents 1
And the other vermin 7.

We can but dream.

Do you regularly call people "vermin". By all means hold DUP to account for their many failings but have a word with yourself.

Are you sure about Foyle there? How is Elisha doing? Pity Durkan isn't standing again

Was mildly surprised to see Colum Eastwood favourite against Elisha McCallion, perhaps Eastwoods higher profile might work in his favour and the fact that he will also take up his seat. Still expect that one to be very close though.
[/quote

It will be close but Elisha is not rated too much down these parts
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 05, 2019, 11:47:12 PM
Is Aontú standing in this election or have they folded?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on November 05, 2019, 11:59:31 PM
Quote from: marty34 on November 05, 2019, 11:47:12 PM
Is Aontú standing in this election or have they folded?

I doubt if both members of that party had the capacity to run an election campaign.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 06, 2019, 12:27:20 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on November 05, 2019, 10:55:45 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 05, 2019, 10:54:03 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on November 05, 2019, 10:52:43 PM
It's a rather revolting indictment of the 6 counties that 80% of seats are completely and utterly locked up for either the party that would destroy NI through its own greed, and the party who won't represent anyone who votes for it.

We deserve to sink into the sea folks.

I see it as an indictment of the first-past-the-post system.

It would be the same political party breakdown regardless of how the election is configured.

If it was PR I don't think it would, certainly not to the same extent. There would be less need for pacts and there would be less tactical voting as people would be more inclined to vote for the candidates that they want rather than against the ones who they don't want.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: omaghjoe on November 06, 2019, 12:50:53 AM
Just for reference is the the Shankill split between NB and WB?
Also does the motorway form the boundary for SB and WB?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: omaghjoe on November 06, 2019, 12:55:39 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 05, 2019, 11:59:31 PM
Quote from: marty34 on November 05, 2019, 11:47:12 PM
Is Aontú standing in this election or have they folded?

I doubt if both members of that party had the capacity to run an election campaign.

Is that the sum total of Shinners with a conscience? No surprise there I suppose
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: RedHand88 on November 06, 2019, 05:44:23 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 06, 2019, 12:50:53 AM
Just for reference is the the Shankill split between NB and WB?
Also does the motorway form the boundary for SB and WB?

Yep
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: bogball88 on November 06, 2019, 09:57:41 AM
Quote from: marty34 on November 05, 2019, 11:47:12 PM
Is Aontú standing in this election or have they folded?
Dr Anne McCloskey standing in Foyle. Current sitting councillor
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Owenmoresider on November 06, 2019, 10:14:01 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 05, 2019, 11:59:31 PM
Quote from: marty34 on November 05, 2019, 11:47:12 PM
Is Aontú standing in this election or have they folded?

I doubt if both members of that party had the capacity to run an election campaign.
::)

They're running in Foyle and West Belfast fwiw.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Keyser soze on November 06, 2019, 10:17:15 AM
David Simpson not standing in Upper Bann, unlikely it will end up as anything other than a DUP return regardless.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: cornerback on November 06, 2019, 10:24:33 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 05, 2019, 06:54:20 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on November 05, 2019, 06:30:53 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 05, 2019, 05:58:18 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 05, 2019, 05:07:23 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 05, 2019, 03:53:51 PM
Any word of reciprocal moves from Alliance in South Belfast/ North Down, couldn't see them doing it in NB TBF.

Would have thought the Green's would withdraw in North Down and East Belfast also.

Could Upper Bann be in play at all for a pact?

Or even South Antrim to help out UU they prob burnt that bridge by withdrawing from NB?

Couldn't see it. Results from 2017 general election:

DUP 43.5%
SF 27.9%
UUP 15.4%
SDLP 8.6%
Alliance 4.5%

The DUP Brexit result is atrocious. I wouldn't rule out a backlash

I would. Areas like this and north Antrim won't change.

I agree. Upper Bann is a safe DUP seat. Arlene could blow millions on a half baked heating scheme and the DUP wouldn't lose a single vote. The unionists have more in common with free staters than they care to admit.

Will the news of David Simpson standing down have any affect in Upper Bann?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: bogball88 on November 06, 2019, 10:34:44 AM
Quote from: Keyser soze on November 06, 2019, 10:17:15 AM
David Simpson not standing in Upper Bann, unlikely it will end up as anything other than a DUP return regardless.
Shagger
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 06, 2019, 11:05:17 AM
Is there any chance Beattie could make inroads there??

Anything is better then the DUP to be fair.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: bogball88 on November 06, 2019, 11:13:59 AM
Quote from: screenexile on November 06, 2019, 11:05:17 AM
Is there any chance Beattie could make inroads there??

Anything is better then the DUP to be fair.
Not really
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: gallsman on November 06, 2019, 11:31:40 AM
Who will the dup put up? Lockhart?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 06, 2019, 11:51:58 AM
Quote from: gallsman on November 06, 2019, 11:31:40 AM
Who will the dup put up? Lockhart?
Yeah and she will wind. An improvement on Simpson in that she is less likely to pester your wife. Probably not an improvement in any wider sense.

Maybe there should be a coordinated spoiled paper campaign in some constituencies??
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: naka on November 06, 2019, 11:52:20 AM
Any chance kinahan will unseat girvan in south Antrim
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: bogball88 on November 06, 2019, 11:53:21 AM
Quote from: gallsman on November 06, 2019, 11:31:40 AM
Who will the dup put up? Lockhart?
probably
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: bogball88 on November 06, 2019, 11:54:03 AM
Quote from: naka on November 06, 2019, 11:52:20 AM
Any chance kinahan will unseat girvan in south Antrim
No. Girvan big man on the ground in this area and will have little or no problem
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Harold Disgracey on November 06, 2019, 12:03:36 PM
Diane Dodds lives in the constituency and will be out of a job soon, so another possibility.

It would have been interesting if Shagger had have run to see if Doug Beattie would have made any inroads into his vote. O'Dowd would have been well placed if the unionist vote was evenly split, Do£ores Ke££y standing will lessen the chances of this happening.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 06, 2019, 12:24:10 PM
Has a political campaign ever shot itself in the foot as badly as the Conservatives have the last few days??

Labour haven't even done anything the Tories are just losing the plot!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: weareros on November 06, 2019, 01:09:27 PM
Quote from: bogball88 on November 06, 2019, 11:54:03 AM
Quote from: naka on November 06, 2019, 11:52:20 AM
Any chance kinahan will unseat girvan in south Antrim
No. Girvan big man on the ground in this area and will have little or no problem

Alliance seem to in contention there too, thought hard to see them pull it off.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: magpie seanie on November 06, 2019, 01:13:50 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 06, 2019, 12:24:10 PM
Has a political campaign ever shot itself in the foot as badly as the Conservatives have the last few days??

Labour haven't even done anything the Tories are just losing the plot!

You haven't been paying enough attention or you're reading the wrong "newspapers" if you think that's the case.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: TheOptimist on November 06, 2019, 01:22:21 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 06, 2019, 12:24:10 PM
Has a political campaign ever shot itself in the foot as badly as the Conservatives have the last few days??

Labour haven't even done anything the Tories are just losing the plot!

If said it on here in the past. Corbyn wiped the floor with the conservatives in 17. I'm beginning to think the conservatives have learnt nothing. Is "get brexit done" the new "strong and stable"?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 06, 2019, 01:42:48 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 06, 2019, 12:24:10 PM
Has a political campaign ever shot itself in the foot as badly as the Conservatives have the last few days??

Labour haven't even done anything the Tories are just losing the plot!

I always thought the likes of Matt Hancock was a total liability in front of the camera but it seems the Tories have more than their fair share of them.

Andrew Bridgen doubling down on the Rees Mogg Grenfell blunder and then James Cleverley trying to justify doctoring the Kier Stammer interview with Piers Morgan and then failing to turn up for a Sky interview as he was double booked and him the Tory Party Chairman.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 06, 2019, 02:12:24 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 06, 2019, 12:24:10 PM
Has a political campaign ever shot itself in the foot as badly as the Conservatives have the last few days??

Labour haven't even done anything the Tories are just losing the plot!

Labour have flown out of the traps again. Corbyn is at his most comfortable campaigning around the country meeting with ordinary people on bread and butter issues and we are seeing that again. The Tories have had a disastrous start because they live sheltered lives and simply aren't in touch with what is happening outside their own bubble.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyHarp on November 06, 2019, 02:20:32 PM
Quote from: TheOptimist on November 06, 2019, 01:22:21 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 06, 2019, 12:24:10 PM
Has a political campaign ever shot itself in the foot as badly as the Conservatives have the last few days??

Labour haven't even done anything the Tories are just losing the plot!

If said it on here in the past. Corbyn wiped the floor with the conservatives in 17. I'm beginning to think the conservatives have learnt nothing. Is "get brexit done" the new "strong and stable"?

With all the half moderate / sensible Conservatives like Nicky Morgan, Amber Rudd, Rory Stewart, Ken Clarke, even Phillip Hammond etc now gone, the ultra lunatics are in charge and they are finding that exposure to the full public glare is a different kettle of fish from shouting from the back benches. These guys are being shown up for what they are and they are floundering. Hopefully they will get the kicking they deserve from the electorate. Unfortunately, I doubt that they will.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: t_mac on November 06, 2019, 02:23:06 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on November 06, 2019, 02:20:32 PM
Quote from: TheOptimist on November 06, 2019, 01:22:21 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 06, 2019, 12:24:10 PM
Has a political campaign ever shot itself in the foot as badly as the Conservatives have the last few days??

Labour haven't even done anything the Tories are just losing the plot!

If said it on here in the past. Corbyn wiped the floor with the conservatives in 17. I'm beginning to think the conservatives have learnt nothing. Is "get brexit done" the new "strong and stable"?

With all the half moderate / sensible Conservatives like Nicky Morgan, Amber Rudd, Rory Stewart, Ken Clarke, even Phillip Hammond etc now gone, the ultra lunatics are in charge and they are finding that exposure to the full public glare is a different kettle of fish from shouting from the back benches. These guys are being shown up for what they are and they are floundering. Hopefully they will get the kicking they deserve from the electorate. Unfortunately, I doubt that they will.

That's just it -  you only have to peruse some right wing rags and their comment sections to see that Conservative do or die voters are akin to DUP voters, no matter what they say or do folk will vote for them.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 06, 2019, 02:23:55 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 06, 2019, 01:13:50 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 06, 2019, 12:24:10 PM
Has a political campaign ever shot itself in the foot as badly as the Conservatives have the last few days??

Labour haven't even done anything the Tories are just losing the plot!

You haven't been paying enough attention or you're reading the wrong "newspapers" if you think that's the case.

The campaign is only started and they haven't even released their manifesto or chosen their candidates yet.

They haven't done a whole lot so far but they haven't had to with the Conservatives shooting themselves in the foot so much!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 06, 2019, 02:32:28 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 06, 2019, 02:23:55 PM

The campaign is only started and they haven't even released their manifesto or chosen their candidates yet.

They haven't done a whole lot so far but they haven't had to with the Conservatives shooting themselves in the foot so much!

There's two of them at it.

Nightmare interviews yesterday and today for Keir Starmer and Laura Pidcock.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: LeoMc on November 06, 2019, 02:43:24 PM
Quote from: five points on November 06, 2019, 02:32:28 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 06, 2019, 02:23:55 PM

The campaign is only started and they haven't even released their manifesto or chosen their candidates yet.

They haven't done a whole lot so far but they haven't had to with the Conservatives shooting themselves in the foot so much!

There's two of them at it.

Nightmare interviews yesterday and today for Keir Starmer and Laura Pidcock.
His interview or the Tory edit of it?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: ziggysego on November 06, 2019, 02:49:04 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 06, 2019, 02:23:55 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 06, 2019, 01:13:50 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 06, 2019, 12:24:10 PM
Has a political campaign ever shot itself in the foot as badly as the Conservatives have the last few days??

Labour haven't even done anything the Tories are just losing the plot!

You haven't been paying enough attention or you're reading the wrong "newspapers" if you think that's the case.


The campaign is only started and they haven't even released their manifesto or chosen their candidates yet.

They haven't done a whole lot so far but they haven't had to with the Conservatives shooting themselves in the foot so much!

Have your say https://labour.org.uk/manifesto-2019/ (https://labour.org.uk/manifesto-2019/)
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: magpie seanie on November 06, 2019, 02:52:58 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 06, 2019, 02:23:55 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 06, 2019, 01:13:50 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 06, 2019, 12:24:10 PM
Has a political campaign ever shot itself in the foot as badly as the Conservatives have the last few days??

Labour haven't even done anything the Tories are just losing the plot!

You haven't been paying enough attention or you're reading the wrong "newspapers" if you think that's the case.

The campaign is only started and they haven't even released their manifesto or chosen their candidates yet.

They haven't done a whole lot so far but they haven't had to with the Conservatives shooting themselves in the foot so much!

There have been several Labour rallies and the Tories have had none. I accept Labout aren't near in full swing and probably mistook the tone of your initial post.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: magpie seanie on November 06, 2019, 02:54:05 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 06, 2019, 02:12:24 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 06, 2019, 12:24:10 PM
Has a political campaign ever shot itself in the foot as badly as the Conservatives have the last few days??

Labour haven't even done anything the Tories are just losing the plot!

Labour have flown out of the traps again. Corbyn is at his most comfortable campaigning around the country meeting with ordinary people on bread and butter issues and we are seeing that again. The Tories have had a disastrous start because they live sheltered lives and simply aren't in touch with what is happening outside their own bubble.

Nail on the head here.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: magpie seanie on November 06, 2019, 02:54:52 PM
Quote from: TheOptimist on November 06, 2019, 01:22:21 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 06, 2019, 12:24:10 PM
Has a political campaign ever shot itself in the foot as badly as the Conservatives have the last few days??

Labour haven't even done anything the Tories are just losing the plot!

If said it on here in the past. Corbyn wiped the floor with the conservatives in 17. I'm beginning to think the conservatives have learnt nothing. Is "get brexit done" the new "strong and stable"?

Don't forget "Britain deserves better"!!!!!!  ;D
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: ziggysego on November 06, 2019, 02:58:46 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 06, 2019, 02:54:52 PM
Quote from: TheOptimist on November 06, 2019, 01:22:21 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 06, 2019, 12:24:10 PM
Has a political campaign ever shot itself in the foot as badly as the Conservatives have the last few days??

Labour haven't even done anything the Tories are just losing the plot!

If said it on here in the past. Corbyn wiped the floor with the conservatives in 17. I'm beginning to think the conservatives have learnt nothing. Is "get brexit done" the new "strong and stable"?

Don't forget "Britain deserves better"!!!!!!  ;D

Surprised I haven't seen "Make Britain Great Again",
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: t_mac on November 06, 2019, 03:01:45 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on November 06, 2019, 02:43:24 PM
Quote from: five points on November 06, 2019, 02:32:28 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 06, 2019, 02:23:55 PM

The campaign is only started and they haven't even released their manifesto or chosen their candidates yet.

They haven't done a whole lot so far but they haven't had to with the Conservatives shooting themselves in the foot so much!

There's two of them at it.

Nightmare interviews yesterday and today for Keir Starmer and Laura Pidcock.
His interview or the Tory edit of it?

Fake news from the Tory party.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 06, 2019, 03:18:11 PM
Quote from: Harold Disgracey on November 06, 2019, 12:03:36 PM
Diane Dodds lives in the constituency and will be out of a job soon, so another possibility.

It would have been interesting if Shagger had have run to see if Doug Beattie would have made any inroads into his vote. O'Dowd would have been well placed if the unionist vote was evenly split, Do£ores Ke££y standing will lessen the chances of this happening.
Doddsy might be in Strasbourg for a good while yet
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 06, 2019, 04:03:59 PM
What's the Alliances latest tweet about?

Someone throwing some personal mud about!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 06, 2019, 04:07:00 PM
Jeffrey Donaldson and Colum Eastwood had a fairly heated exchange earlier on Talkback over a letter that Jeffrey wrote into today's Newsletter asking whether Sean Kelly would be campaigning for Claire Hanna in South Belfast. Eastwood spoke very well and got Donaldson completely flustered and I think that by the end of the interview that he may have realised that the letter may have backfired on him. Looked like a complete stunt from Jeffrey to try and make it about the IRA again and deflect from any Brexit related issues.

The fact is that the DUP have embraced loyalist paramilitaries more than ever before and have done nothing to try and distance themselves from platform sharing and having meetings with the UDA and UVF. I think its borne out of fear and paranoia in realising that the union is under threat but in doing so they just become even more inward looking and continue to isolate themselves. They just continue to dig themselves ever deeper into their bunkers and I think they might soon have to change their party name to 'ourselves alone'.   
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 06, 2019, 04:13:05 PM
The UDA/UVF probably have a reasonable say in who "working class" loyalists vote for in certain areas at least. If they don't appease them then they will lose voters.

That being said the last time they paired up was round the time of their "graduated response" around parades which still hasn't happened.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 06, 2019, 04:34:41 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 06, 2019, 04:07:00 PM
Jeffrey Donaldson and Colum Eastwood had a fairly heated exchange earlier on Talkback over a letter that Jeffrey wrote into today's Newsletter asking whether Sean Kelly would be campaigning for Claire Hanna in South Belfast. Eastwood spoke very well and got Donaldson completely flustered and I think that by the end of the interview that he may have realised that the letter may have backfired on him. Looked like a complete stunt from Jeffrey to try and make it about the IRA again and deflect from any Brexit related issues.

The fact is that the DUP have embraced loyalist paramilitaries more than ever before and have done nothing to try and distance themselves from platform sharing and having meetings with the UDA and UVF. I think its borne out of fear and paranoia in realising that the union is under threat but in doing so they just become even more inward looking and continue to isolate themselves. They just continue to dig themselves ever deeper into their bunkers and I think they might soon have to change their party name to 'ourselves alone'.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0009ylz (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0009ylz)

About 11 minutes in.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 06, 2019, 05:08:19 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on November 06, 2019, 04:13:05 PM
The UDA/UVF probably have a reasonable say in who "working class" loyalists vote for in certain areas at least. If they don't appease them then they will lose voters.

That being said the last time they paired up was round the time of their "graduated response" around parades which still hasn't happened.

They will team up with the UDA/UVF if it is expedient for them to do so. That's fine but they can't then claim some high principled moral stance over paramilitarism links which is what they are doing in the case of Sean Kelly and SDLP. It is fairly clear already that Finucane will be the subject of a continual smear campaign in North Belfast which is just indicative of how much pressure that Dodds is under to hold that seat. I think Finucane is too clever to get involved in the mud slinging of personal attacks and needs to keep it about Brexit and Dodds record over the last 2-3 years as an arch Brexiteer/ERG apologist.   
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 06, 2019, 05:17:58 PM
They can because that is what they do though. The party of RHI, red sky, petitions of concern, links with loyalist paramilitaries. They are the epitome of irony.

Yes I hope Finucane goes nowhere near it.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Minder on November 06, 2019, 06:02:14 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 06, 2019, 04:07:00 PM
Jeffrey Donaldson and Colum Eastwood had a fairly heated exchange earlier on Talkback over a letter that Jeffrey wrote into today's Newsletter asking whether Sean Kelly would be campaigning for Claire Hanna in South Belfast. Eastwood spoke very well and got Donaldson completely flustered and I think that by the end of the interview that he may have realised that the letter may have backfired on him. Looked like a complete stunt from Jeffrey to try and make it about the IRA again and deflect from any Brexit related issues.

The fact is that the DUP have embraced loyalist paramilitaries more than ever before and have done nothing to try and distance themselves from platform sharing and having meetings with the UDA and UVF. I think its borne out of fear and paranoia in realising that the union is under threat but in doing so they just become even more inward looking and continue to isolate themselves. They just continue to dig themselves ever deeper into their bunkers and I think they might soon have to change their party name to 'ourselves alone'.

Sean Kelly is campaigning for Clare Hanna??
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 06, 2019, 06:23:24 PM
Lady Sylvia not standing!!! f**k that!!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 06, 2019, 06:27:11 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 06, 2019, 06:23:24 PM
Lady Sylvia not standing!!! f**k that!!

For feck sake.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Armagh18 on November 06, 2019, 06:27:57 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 06, 2019, 02:54:52 PM
Quote from: TheOptimist on November 06, 2019, 01:22:21 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 06, 2019, 12:24:10 PM
Has a political campaign ever shot itself in the foot as badly as the Conservatives have the last few days??

Labour haven't even done anything the Tories are just losing the plot!

If said it on here in the past. Corbyn wiped the floor with the conservatives in 17. I'm beginning to think the conservatives have learnt nothing. Is "get brexit done" the new "strong and stable"?

Don't forget "Britain deserves better"!!!!!!  ;D
Yeah much better than the past 10 years of Tory cuts.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Armagh18 on November 06, 2019, 06:30:10 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 06, 2019, 06:23:24 PM
Lady Sylvia not standing!!! f**k that!!
UDA must have told her not too.... any chance of Alliance getting a sniff in her seat if they got support of other remain parties?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 06, 2019, 06:40:46 PM
Potentially a DUP/UDA gain, going on result last time out?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: under the bar on November 06, 2019, 06:52:09 PM
Could she not have held on until January ffs?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 06, 2019, 07:03:35 PM
That's a seat now likely going to a pro Brexit DUP voter so will negate any loss that DUP will suffer in South Belfast or elsewhere.

General election 2017: North Down Party    Candidate    Votes    

   Independent..........Sylvia Hermon..........16,148    
   DUP.........................Alex Easton..............14,940    
   Alliance...................Andrew Muir..............  3,639    
   Green (NI)..............Steven Agnew.............2,549    
   NI Conservatives....Frank Shivers.............    941    
   Sinn Féin.................Thérèse McCartney........531    
   SDLP........................Caoímhe McNeill.............400    
   Independent...........Gavan Reynolds.................3

Looks nailed on for a DUP candidate now.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Harold Disgracey on November 06, 2019, 07:08:38 PM
Alliance did very well in the most recent council elections in North Down and Ards so they would have a decent chance.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: LeoMc on November 06, 2019, 07:14:30 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 06, 2019, 07:03:35 PM
That's a seat now likely going to a pro Brexit DUP voter so will negate any loss that DUP will suffer in South Belfast or elsewhere.

General election 2017: North Down Party    Candidate    Votes    

   Independent..........Sylvia Hermon..........16,148    
   DUP.........................Alex Easton..............14,940    
   Alliance...................Andrew Muir..............  3,639    
   Green (NI)..............Steven Agnew.............2,549    
   NI Conservatives....Frank Shivers.............    941    
   Sinn Féin.................Thérèse McCartney........531    
   SDLP........................Caoímhe McNeill.............400    
   Independent...........Gavan Reynolds.................3

Looks nailed on for a DUP candidate now.
UUP didn't stand against her so they may have a chance if they have any decent candidates. How did they do in the other elections there?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 06, 2019, 07:21:46 PM
Quote from: Harold Disgracey on November 06, 2019, 07:08:38 PM
Alliance did very well in the most recent council elections in North Down and Ards so they would have a decent chance.

31,000 unionist votes out of 38,000 highly unlikely alliance could win it I would have thought, possibly UUP depending on the candidates involved. If both UUP and Alliance stand then it plays into DUP's hands.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 06, 2019, 07:22:18 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 06, 2019, 07:03:35 PM
That's a seat now likely going to a pro Brexit DUP voter so will negate any loss that DUP will suffer in South Belfast or elsewhere.

General election 2017: North Down Party    Candidate    Votes    

   Independent..........Sylvia Hermon..........16,148    
   DUP.........................Alex Easton..............14,940    
   Alliance...................Andrew Muir..............  3,639    
   Green (NI)..............Steven Agnew.............2,549    
   NI Conservatives....Frank Shivers.............    941    
   Sinn Féin.................Thérèse McCartney........531    
   SDLP........................Caoímhe McNeill.............400    
   Independent...........Gavan Reynolds.................3

Looks nailed on for a DUP candidate now.
The DUP made an arse of Brexit. £60 customs charges
for consignments going between NI and GB and vice versa. This will hurt them
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 06, 2019, 07:23:48 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 06, 2019, 05:08:19 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on November 06, 2019, 04:13:05 PM
The UDA/UVF probably have a reasonable say in who "working class" loyalists vote for in certain areas at least. If they don't appease them then they will lose voters.

That being said the last time they paired up was round the time of their "graduated response" around parades which still hasn't happened.

They will team up with the UDA/UVF if it is expedient for them to do so. That's fine but they can't then claim some high principled moral stance over paramilitarism links which is what they are doing in the case of Sean Kelly and SDLP. It is fairly clear already that Finucane will be the subject of a continual smear campaign in North Belfast which is just indicative of how much pressure that Dodds is under to hold that seat. I think Finucane is too clever to get involved in the mud slinging of personal attacks and needs to keep it about Brexit and Dodds record over the last 2-3 years as an arch Brexiteer/ERG apologist.

True, softly spoken and will do well with pulling in a few SDLP/Alluance and Green voters who are against Brexit - just to get Dodds out.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on November 06, 2019, 07:25:26 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 06, 2019, 07:03:35 PM


General election 2017: North Down Party    Candidate    Votes    

   Independent..........Sylvia Hermon..........16,148    
   DUP.........................Alex Easton..............14,940    
   Alliance...................Andrew Muir..............  3,639    
   Green (NI)..............Steven Agnew.............2,549    
   NI Conservatives....Frank Shivers.............    941    
   Sinn Féin.................Thérèse McCartney........531    
   SDLP........................Caoímhe McNeill.............400    
   Independent...........Gavan Reynolds.................3

Looks nailed on for a DUP candidate now.

Will Gavan Reynolds be standing again?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 06, 2019, 07:30:23 PM
Quote from: Harold Disgracey on November 06, 2019, 07:08:38 PM
Alliance did very well in the most recent council elections in North Down and Ards so they would have a decent chance.

Maybe more of a chance in north Down than east Belfast?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 06, 2019, 07:30:42 PM
North Down is the wealthiest constituency in NI afaik
They are not going to elect a DUP hard Brexit goon. The UDA vote wouldn't
be strong enough to swing it.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 06, 2019, 08:51:01 PM
Sf I don't think you understand the no electorate. Economics not that big a concern.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: dec on November 06, 2019, 09:14:38 PM
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-50316764

The DUP's David Simpson is standing down as MP for Upper Bann after a reported affair with a party colleague. He first won the seat in 2005 and has been a member of the party for decades. In a statement, he said: "In recent times it has been well publicised that I made a mistake that brought hurt to my wife and family as well as bringing heartache to another family." Mr Simpson said he was sorry for his "mistakes" and that his family had given him a "precious second chance".

"These were my mistakes and for them I am truly sorry," he said. "I have learned from my failings and my wife and children have given me a precious second chance and together we intend to look to the future together." Before becoming an MP, Mr Simpson was a member of the Stormont assembly and had also been a councillor for the party.
Image caption Mr Simpson was a member of the Stormont assembly before becoming an MP. He said the time was right to "pass the baton on".

DUP leader Arlene Foster thanked Mr Simpson for his years of consistent public service to voters and the party. "His service has been characterised by dedication to the people who elected him and his business skills and experience were used to the benefit of Upper Bann," she said. "I wish him well as he takes a new direction in life and I know that he will continue to use his many talents to the benefit of the party and the wider Northern Ireland cause."

It was a dramatic result in 2005, when he first snatched the Upper Bann seat from the then-Ulster Unionist leader David Trimble. It proved to be a landmark victory that showed how the DUP had eclipsed the UUP. Before becoming a politician, Mr Simpson had worked in his own meat business but came to prominence as the mayor of Craigavon and later an MLA. Away from the political world, he was a keen preacher and gospel singer.

In Parliament, he was not regarded as one of the party's high-flyers but was a regular contributor in the Commons and a member of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee. He was opposed to same-sex marriage, but in 2013 during a debate in Parliament on legalising it, he said: "In the Garden of Eden it was Adam and Steve" before correcting himself to "Adam and Eve". In 2017, he claimed in election literature that he had visited soldiers in Afghanistan in 2010, but it later emerged this had not happened because he could not fit into a flak jacket.

It is not clear who the party will select to replace him to stand as a candidate for Upper Bann in the 12 December general election.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 06, 2019, 09:14:52 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on November 06, 2019, 08:51:01 PM
Sf I don't think you understand the no electorate. Economics not that big a concern.

Exactly. What might seem irrational to normal voters does not apply to DUP Brexit voters who want to play the Uber Brit. The only way I can see the DUP challenged in this constituency is if the UUP put in a strong high profile pro remain candidate and even then it would be difficult to see how they could out poll Sylvia Hermon or get close to her level of popular support.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on November 06, 2019, 09:47:17 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 06, 2019, 09:14:52 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on November 06, 2019, 08:51:01 PM
Sf I don't think you understand the no electorate. Economics not that big a concern.

Exactly. What might seem irrational to normal voters does not apply to DUP Brexit voters who want to play the Uber Brit. The only way I can see the DUP challenged in this constituency is if the UUP put in a strong high profile pro remain candidate and even then it would be difficult to see how they could out poll Sylvia Hermon or get close to her level of popular support.

Which the UUP are not going to do. They could tack to the left (or less orange side) of the DUP and try to reclaim the center, but they always seem to try to out-DUP the DUP instead.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Minder on November 06, 2019, 10:45:03 PM
Tom Watson steps down
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 06, 2019, 11:04:16 PM
Maitlis annihilating Brokenshire on Newsnight... great to see!!!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 07, 2019, 12:02:40 AM
On radio today, they mentioned Arlene standing in Upper Bann - was a solicitor there in bygone days!!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: armaghniac on November 07, 2019, 12:58:24 AM
Quote from: marty34 on November 07, 2019, 12:02:40 AM
On radio today, they mentioned Arlene standing in Upper Bann - was a solicitor there in bygone days!!

If her workwomenship was like that of leading the DUP there will be people there that don't really own their houses or aren't really divorced.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: drillsergeant on November 07, 2019, 05:39:44 AM
Firstly, best wishes to Sylvia Hermon really sad to see her stepping down. North Down now looks a complete banker for DUP. I heard rumours few weeks ago that Diane Dodds was going to run for that seat, however her name has popped up to run for Upper Bann.

Brexit Referendum 2016
Total electorate: 65,660
Turnout: 44,211 (67.3%)
Votes to REMAIN: 23,131 (52.4%)
Votes to LEAVE: 21,046 (47.6%).

NI Assembly Election 2017
DUP 14,152 (37.5%) 2 seats
UUP 8,115 (21.5%) 1 seat
Alliance 7,014 (18.6%) 1 seat
Green 5,178 (13.7%) 1 seat
Ind 1,369 (3.6%)
SDLP 679 (1.8%)
Con 641 (1.7%)
SF 591 (1.6%)

Westminster Election 2017
Sylvia Hermon (Ind) 16,148 (41.2%)
Alex Easton (DUP) 14,940 (38.1%)
Andrew Muir (Alliance) 3.639 (9.3%)
Steven Agnew (Green) 2,549 (6.5%)
Frank Shivers (Con) 941 (2.4%)
Therese McCartney (SF) 531 (1.4%)
Caoimhe McNeill (SDLP) 400 (1.0%)
Gavan Reynolds (Ind) 37 (0.1%)

After closing analysing the figures for this there is still hope for DUP to be defeated here. Could the Pro-Remain side run a independent candidate?? Does the UUP believe they can gain back this consistency? Finally does Alliance have a chance?? Views folks
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 07, 2019, 06:27:28 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on November 06, 2019, 08:51:01 PM
Sf I don't think you understand the no electorate. Economics not that big a concern.
At some point the UUP and Alliance will start taking Westminster seats off the DUP. The DUP
would need to be weakened for this to happen. We'll see what the voters think of the DUP's Brexit efforts shortly.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: tbrick18 on November 07, 2019, 07:55:35 AM
Quote from: screenexile on November 06, 2019, 11:04:16 PM
Maitlis annihilating Brokenshire on Newsnight... great to see!!!

She really did make him squirm. He had no answers at all.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 07, 2019, 08:20:28 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 07, 2019, 06:27:28 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on November 06, 2019, 08:51:01 PM
Sf I don't think you understand the no electorate. Economics not that big a concern.
At some point the UUP and Alliance will start taking Westminster seats off the DUP. The DUP
would need to be weakened for this to happen. We'll see what the voters think of the DUP's Brexit efforts shortly.

Yes we will.the "union" is the big spelling point of this election. Project fear and don't vote themmums already started. Just look at the Hanna comments.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: ardtole on November 07, 2019, 08:40:14 AM
Rumours this morning of Ian Paisley Jr standing as an ind unionist in North Antrim. Speculation at present but no smoke without fire, definitely not a united camp at present
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: gallsman on November 07, 2019, 08:43:10 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 07, 2019, 06:27:28 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on November 06, 2019, 08:51:01 PM
Sf I don't think you understand the no electorate. Economics not that big a concern.
At some point the UUP and Alliance will start taking Westminster seats off the DUP. The DUP
would need to be weakened for this to happen. We'll see what the voters think of the DUP's Brexit efforts shortly.

The uup will do nothing.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Pearse Blue on November 07, 2019, 08:53:12 AM
Quote from: gallsman on November 07, 2019, 08:43:10 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 07, 2019, 06:27:28 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on November 06, 2019, 08:51:01 PM
Sf I don't think you understand the no electorate. Economics not that big a concern.
At some point the UUP and Alliance will start taking Westminster seats off the DUP. The DUP
would need to be weakened for this to happen. We'll see what the voters think of the DUP's Brexit efforts shortly.

The uup will do nothing.
Their Brexit efforts have obviously been a bismal, they are continually looking to be like the Torys and they are too blinded to see the british government don't really give a shit about them bar when they are trying to buy their seats. Arlene and co. are money bandits
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 07, 2019, 09:41:16 AM
Quote from: gallsman on November 07, 2019, 08:43:10 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 07, 2019, 06:27:28 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on November 06, 2019, 08:51:01 PM
Sf I don't think you understand the no electorate. Economics not that big a concern.
At some point the UUP and Alliance will start taking Westminster seats off the DUP. The DUP
would need to be weakened for this to happen. We'll see what the voters think of the DUP's Brexit efforts shortly.

The uup will do nothing.

yeah. Only hope Alliance.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Dougal Maguire on November 07, 2019, 09:43:35 AM
Re North Down, if Greens and UUP step aside and Alliance put up Stephen Farray he could give DUP a good run for their money, otherwise it's great news for Paul Girvan because once Alex Easton gets elected he'll then take the title of the dimmest MP in Westminster
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Dougal Maguire on November 07, 2019, 09:46:32 AM
Re Upper Bann:I'd be shocked if Carla Lockhart does win the DUP nomination. She's hard working and popular in the area. I assume UUP will run Doug Beattie
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: armaghniac on November 07, 2019, 09:47:52 AM
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on November 07, 2019, 09:43:35 AM
Re North Down, if Greens and UUP step aside and Alliance put up Stephen Farray he could give DUP a good run for their money, otherwise it's great news for Paul Girvan because once Alex Easton gets elected he'll then take the title of the dimmest MP in Westminster

Dimmest DUP MP, nowadays some of the Conservatives would give them a run for their money on that front.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 07, 2019, 09:59:25 AM
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on November 07, 2019, 09:46:32 AM
Re Upper Bann:I'd be shocked if Carla Lockhart does win the DUP nomination. She's hard working and popular in the area. I assume UUP will run Doug Beattie

Has she not been on maternity leave fairly recently? She might not be interested, as a result.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: lurganblue on November 07, 2019, 10:07:00 AM
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on November 07, 2019, 09:46:32 AM
Re Upper Bann:I'd be shocked if Carla Lockhart does win the DUP nomination. She's hard working and popular in the area. I assume UUP will run Doug Beattie

Aye hard working getting her family members onto the RHI scheme. Popular in some areas of upper bann no doubt.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 07, 2019, 10:17:14 AM
Sounds like Mike TV and Stephen Farry. . . they'd be better off doing a Remain Alliance there in North Down because if Alliance and UUP both stand the DUP walk it.

Paisley Jnr could be a very interesting one are they bucking him out??

Very damaging last few hours for Corbyn with Watson resigning and Austin absolutely destroying Corbyn on Radio 4 this morning. It's going to be a long battle ahead with peaks and troughs for both Conservatives and Labour. Hopefully with the economic plans announced today they can start bringing a bit of positivity to their campaigns rather than shooting themselves in the foot!!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 07, 2019, 10:21:29 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on November 07, 2019, 09:47:52 AM
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on November 07, 2019, 09:43:35 AM
Re North Down, if Greens and UUP step aside and Alliance put up Stephen Farray he could give DUP a good run for their money, otherwise it's great news for Paul Girvan because once Alex Easton gets elected he'll then take the title of the dimmest MP in Westminster

Dimmest DUP MP, nowadays some of the Conservatives would give them a run for their money on that front.

If those two DUP lads are dimmer that Jim "expenses" Shannon then they're really in a bad way.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on November 07, 2019, 10:26:55 AM
It doesn't matter as the Tribe will rally to the "fleg".
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 07, 2019, 10:33:26 AM
Quote from: screenexile on November 07, 2019, 10:17:14 AM
Sounds like Mike TV and Stephen Farry. . . they'd be better off doing a Remain Alliance there in North Down because if Alliance and UUP both stand the DUP walk it.

Paisley Jnr could be a very interesting one are they bucking him out??

Very damaging last few hours for Corbyn with Watson resigning and Austin absolutely destroying Corbyn on Radio 4 this morning. It's going to be a long battle ahead with peaks and troughs for both Conservatives and Labour. Hopefully with the economic plans announced today they can start bringing a bit of positivity to their campaigns rather than shooting themselves in the foot!!

Strange one alright with Ian O'g.

He's crowd funding it seems under the leave.EU banner. Is that funded by Aaron Banks as well?

https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/1192042168803827714 (https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/1192042168803827714)
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: ziggysego on November 07, 2019, 10:34:35 AM
Apparently Kate Hoey is thinking of standing as a single Unionist candidate in Fermanagh and South Tyrone. Ugh

https://www.impartialreporter.com/news/18018969.retiring-labour-mp-contest-fermanagh-south-tyrone-seat/ (https://www.impartialreporter.com/news/18018969.retiring-labour-mp-contest-fermanagh-south-tyrone-seat/)
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 07, 2019, 10:51:50 AM
Quote from: screenexile on November 07, 2019, 10:17:14 AM
Sounds like Mike TV and Stephen Farry. . . they'd be better off doing a Remain Alliance there in North Down because if Alliance and UUP both stand the DUP walk it.

Paisley Jnr could be a very interesting one are they bucking him out??

Very damaging last few hours for Corbyn with Watson resigning and Austin absolutely destroying Corbyn on Radio 4 this morning. It's going to be a long battle ahead with peaks and troughs for both Conservatives and Labour. Hopefully with the economic plans announced today they can start bringing a bit of positivity to their campaigns rather than shooting themselves in the foot!!

Where or what have you have heard about Paisley being bucked out??

Hoey is a horrendous individual.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 07, 2019, 12:09:50 PM
Irish Times

"Dodds joined a panel of unionist and loyalist representatives to condemn a deal the DUP is directly responsible for causing."
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: sensethetone on November 07, 2019, 12:15:45 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 07, 2019, 12:09:50 PM
Irish Times

"Dodds joined a panel of unionist and loyalist representatives to condemn a deal the DUP is directly responsible for causing."

DUP know how to run with fox and hunt will the hounds..
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: red hander on November 07, 2019, 12:39:12 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on November 07, 2019, 10:34:35 AM
Apparently Kate Hoey is thinking of standing as a single Unionist candidate in Fermanagh and South Tyrone. Ugh

https://www.impartialreporter.com/news/18018969.retiring-labour-mp-contest-fermanagh-south-tyrone-seat/ (https://www.impartialreporter.com/news/18018969.retiring-labour-mp-contest-fermanagh-south-tyrone-seat/)

That's Michelle back in, then.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: WT4E on November 07, 2019, 12:58:51 PM
When do the candidates be finalised? Assuming posters will have to be printed up soon.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 07, 2019, 01:29:12 PM
Quote from: WT4E on November 07, 2019, 12:58:51 PM
When do the candidates be finalised? Assuming posters will have to be printed up soon.

Today week 4 pm.

Most posters I have seen so far have been recycled.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: GJL on November 07, 2019, 01:29:29 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on November 07, 2019, 10:34:35 AM
Apparently Kate Hoey is thinking of standing as a single Unionist candidate in Fermanagh and South Tyrone. Ugh

https://www.impartialreporter.com/news/18018969.retiring-labour-mp-contest-fermanagh-south-tyrone-seat/ (https://www.impartialreporter.com/news/18018969.retiring-labour-mp-contest-fermanagh-south-tyrone-seat/)

Good. Bring her on. Looking forward to meeting her at my door.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: bogball88 on November 07, 2019, 01:43:57 PM
Green Party not standing in any of the Belfast constituencies
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: weareros on November 07, 2019, 01:46:22 PM
Quote from: GJL on November 07, 2019, 01:29:29 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on November 07, 2019, 10:34:35 AM
Apparently Kate Hoey is thinking of standing as a single Unionist candidate in Fermanagh and South Tyrone. Ugh

https://www.impartialreporter.com/news/18018969.retiring-labour-mp-contest-fermanagh-south-tyrone-seat/ (https://www.impartialreporter.com/news/18018969.retiring-labour-mp-contest-fermanagh-south-tyrone-seat/)

Good. Bring her on. Looking forward to meeting her at my door.

I wouldn't pay much heed to the Lord John Taylor, he posts a lot of paranoid rubbish on Twitter, littered with racism and poor spelling. I'd say the only place Hoey would be effective in FST is in a farmer's field to keep the crows away.

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: bogball88 on November 07, 2019, 01:48:18 PM
Quote from: weareros on November 07, 2019, 01:46:22 PM
Quote from: GJL on November 07, 2019, 01:29:29 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on November 07, 2019, 10:34:35 AM
Apparently Kate Hoey is thinking of standing as a single Unionist candidate in Fermanagh and South Tyrone. Ugh

https://www.impartialreporter.com/news/18018969.retiring-labour-mp-contest-fermanagh-south-tyrone-seat/ (https://www.impartialreporter.com/news/18018969.retiring-labour-mp-contest-fermanagh-south-tyrone-seat/)


Good. Bring her on. Looking forward to meeting her at my door.

I wouldn't pay much heed to the Lord John Taylor, he posts a lot of paranoid rubbish on Twitter, littered with racism and poor spelling. I'd say the only place Hoey would be effective in FST is in a farmer's field to keep the crows away.
He's just after saying he hopes Martin O'Neill stays as manager of NI
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Orior on November 07, 2019, 02:12:45 PM
Quote from: GJL on November 07, 2019, 01:29:29 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on November 07, 2019, 10:34:35 AM
Apparently Kate Hoey is thinking of standing as a single Unionist candidate in Fermanagh and South Tyrone. Ugh

https://www.impartialreporter.com/news/18018969.retiring-labour-mp-contest-fermanagh-south-tyrone-seat/ (https://www.impartialreporter.com/news/18018969.retiring-labour-mp-contest-fermanagh-south-tyrone-seat/)

Good. Bring her on. Looking forward to meeting her at my door.

Behave! lol
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: dec on November 07, 2019, 02:13:19 PM
Quote from: bogball88 on November 07, 2019, 01:48:18 PM
Quote from: weareros on November 07, 2019, 01:46:22 PM
Quote from: GJL on November 07, 2019, 01:29:29 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on November 07, 2019, 10:34:35 AM
Apparently Kate Hoey is thinking of standing as a single Unionist candidate in Fermanagh and South Tyrone. Ugh

https://www.impartialreporter.com/news/18018969.retiring-labour-mp-contest-fermanagh-south-tyrone-seat/ (https://www.impartialreporter.com/news/18018969.retiring-labour-mp-contest-fermanagh-south-tyrone-seat/)


Good. Bring her on. Looking forward to meeting her at my door.

I wouldn't pay much heed to the Lord John Taylor, he posts a lot of paranoid rubbish on Twitter, littered with racism and poor spelling. I'd say the only place Hoey would be effective in FST is in a farmer's field to keep the crows away.
He's just after saying he hopes Martin O'Neill stays as manager of NI

No he didn't, stop making stuff up.

Oh Wait

https://twitter.com/KilclooneyJohn/status/1192431366144757760
Lord John Kilclooney
@KilclooneyJohn
I hope Martin O'Neill remains Manager of Nirthern Ureland but understandably terms do matter!
8:19 AM · Nov 7, 2019
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 07, 2019, 02:56:43 PM
Quote from: sensethetone on November 07, 2019, 12:15:45 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 07, 2019, 12:09:50 PM
Irish Times

"Dodds joined a panel of unionist and loyalist representatives to condemn a deal the DUP is directly responsible for causing."

DUP know how to run with fox and hunt will the hounds..
But that is absurd
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 07, 2019, 03:06:48 PM
Taylor's trolling is legendary. I'm amazed people are still falling for his yarns.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 07, 2019, 03:31:12 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 07, 2019, 02:56:43 PM
Quote from: sensethetone on November 07, 2019, 12:15:45 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 07, 2019, 12:09:50 PM
Irish Times

"Dodds joined a panel of unionist and loyalist representatives to condemn a deal the DUP is directly responsible for causing."

DUP know how to run with fox and hunt will the hounds..
But that is absurd

It's only absurd if you've a certain level of intelligence.

Lets just say the audience won't be bothering mensa anytime soon.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 07, 2019, 03:41:11 PM
Look at their show on the shankill. People lapping it up. Needing to defend the union etc etc. If you believe it needs defending then you should realise on the past 6 months evidence it needs defending from the DUP lol.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Taylor on November 07, 2019, 03:52:06 PM
Quote from: five points on November 07, 2019, 03:06:48 PM
Taylor's trolling is legendary. I'm amazed people are still falling for his yarns.

:-[  :-\
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 07, 2019, 05:22:23 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on November 07, 2019, 03:24:54 PM
Quote from: five points on November 07, 2019, 03:06:48 PM
Taylor's trolling is legendary. I'm amazed people are still falling for his yarns.

There's a fine line between being a troll, and being a c*nt.

It's not every day that you come across such an erudite quote on this board. But today is that day.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 07, 2019, 06:59:28 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on November 07, 2019, 10:51:50 AM
Quote from: screenexile on November 07, 2019, 10:17:14 AM
Sounds like Mike TV and Stephen Farry. . . they'd be better off doing a Remain Alliance there in North Down because if Alliance and UUP both stand the DUP walk it.

Paisley Jnr could be a very interesting one are they bucking him out??

Very damaging last few hours for Corbyn with Watson resigning and Austin absolutely destroying Corbyn on Radio 4 this morning. It's going to be a long battle ahead with peaks and troughs for both Conservatives and Labour. Hopefully with the economic plans announced today they can start bringing a bit of positivity to their campaigns rather than shooting themselves in the foot!!

Where or what have you have heard about Paisley being bucked out??

Hoey is a horrendous individual.

https://twitter.com/dup_online/status/1192360578595131392?s=12
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: weareros on November 07, 2019, 07:10:02 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 07, 2019, 06:59:28 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on November 07, 2019, 10:51:50 AM
Quote from: screenexile on November 07, 2019, 10:17:14 AM
Sounds like Mike TV and Stephen Farry. . . they'd be better off doing a Remain Alliance there in North Down because if Alliance and UUP both stand the DUP walk it.

Paisley Jnr could be a very interesting one are they bucking him out??

Very damaging last few hours for Corbyn with Watson resigning and Austin absolutely destroying Corbyn on Radio 4 this morning. It's going to be a long battle ahead with peaks and troughs for both Conservatives and Labour. Hopefully with the economic plans announced today they can start bringing a bit of positivity to their campaigns rather than shooting themselves in the foot!!

Where or what have you have heard about Paisley being bucked out??

Hoey is a horrendous individual.

https://twitter.com/dup_online/status/1192360578595131392?s=12

Jaysus only 100 pound raised in his Crowdfunder campaign so far. Wouldn't even cover a night in a cheap hotel in Sri Lanka.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 07, 2019, 07:21:38 PM
Maybe his wee bestie Emma could lend him some of that big lump sum pay off she got, when she stepped down as a DUP SPAD.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: bennydorano on November 07, 2019, 07:47:35 PM
I can see a Tory majority of 30-50 happening quite easily, Johnson charlatan and all that is, has a bit of charm & charisma and that will be important among all the lies.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 07, 2019, 08:16:56 PM
Either him or Corbyn finished. Most likely Corbyn.

Interesting regarding paisley. Believe it when I see it though.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 07, 2019, 09:01:53 PM
The Tories didn't get off to a good start. Portsmouth South is an example of the threat from Farage.
Latest polling has them on 27k with Brexit party on 9k but Lib Dems on 30k
They can't afford to lose seats because of Farage
The Tories have no allies so need a majority
Labour don't. They can go into coalition with LD and SNP.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 07, 2019, 09:11:34 PM
Except, that is, for their DUP confidence & supply buddies!!!!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Square Ball on November 07, 2019, 09:22:28 PM
Corbyn is up against a pathetic, hateful government, but the public don't seem to trust him and see Boris as best of them.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Minder on November 07, 2019, 09:33:43 PM
Quote from: Square Ball on November 07, 2019, 09:22:28 PM
Corbyn is up against a pathetic, hateful government, but the public don't seem to trust him and see Boris as best of them.

Labour need to get rid of Corbyn so Labour can get back to being a serious party not a cult run by loons
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Tony Baloney on November 07, 2019, 09:42:32 PM
Quote from: Square Ball on November 07, 2019, 09:22:28 PM
Corbyn is up against a pathetic, hateful government, but the public don't seem to trust him and see Boris as best of them.
If Labour had someone centre left running the party the GE would be a penalty kick.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 07, 2019, 09:51:35 PM
I think we will see a split in at least one of the Tory and Labour Party after this election. Tories have moved to the far right and Labour remain on the far left. It will change the whole landscape of British politics and whatever the outcome, Brexit will linger on without closure.

In the absence of a deal between the Tories and the Brexit Party, I think it will be another hung parliament and it depends on what deals can be done with other parties as to who out of Corbyn or Johnson will end up as prime minister. Whichever leader is defeated will be toast.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 07, 2019, 11:01:37 PM
I enjoy Naomi, Carruthers trying to tie her up but not succeeding.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on November 07, 2019, 11:34:03 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 07, 2019, 11:01:37 PM
I enjoy Naomi, Carruthers trying to tie her up but not succeeding.

Dont know what you are talking about. He is asking her reasonable questions and she is giving deluded answers. Eg Alliance will Not win NB and will get 4000 votes max. She is getting herself in knots. On one hand we dont know the results as the electorate will decide sp Alliance may win anywhere but on the other hand DUP defo wont get 10 seats because of the political analysis. How the feck did Mark let her away with that contrast all in one sentence.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on November 07, 2019, 11:37:59 PM
She is also just lying about the south belfast votes. Alliance are clinging onto the rather dodgy last lucid talk poll. For example if they get 32% of the vote in South Antrim ill eat my hat
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: gallsman on November 08, 2019, 09:04:42 AM
Quote from: Square Ball on November 07, 2019, 09:22:28 PM
Corbyn is up against a pathetic, hateful government, but the public don't seem to trust him and see Boris as best of them.

That's because Corbyn and his goons are about as useful as a fart in spacesuit.

Screaming "tax the rich!" or "nationalise everything!" endlessly with zero substance behind it only gets you so far.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 08, 2019, 09:16:45 AM
Quote from: gallsman on November 08, 2019, 09:04:42 AM
Quote from: Square Ball on November 07, 2019, 09:22:28 PM
Corbyn is up against a pathetic, hateful government, but the public don't seem to trust him and see Boris as best of them.

That's because Corbyn and his goons are about as useful as a fart in spacesuit.

Screaming "tax the rich!" or "nationalise everything!" endlessly with zero substance behind it only gets you so far.

Robert Shrimsley in the FT 

"Beyond Brexit, Labour has a coherent narrative. The last three years have been no advert for Tory efficiency and the last nine have not left most people feeling better off. Labour has a raft of policies with appeal to core groups. It has baubles for young and old, tenants and workers. It will not be outbid on public services. And while Mr Johnson's spending promises play well, voters' current experiences are of austerity and cuts. Labour can, for example, note that Mr Johnson's promised 20,000 extra police will only restore numbers to their 2010 level. Its message of a rigged society plays strongly, not least with many of those who voted Leave. This taps into a key point. Many of those who backed Brexit did so not out of a Faragist obsession with the EU, but out of a sense that the country had stopped working for them. "
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Minder on November 08, 2019, 09:19:29 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 08, 2019, 09:16:45 AM
Quote from: gallsman on November 08, 2019, 09:04:42 AM
Quote from: Square Ball on November 07, 2019, 09:22:28 PM
Corbyn is up against a pathetic, hateful government, but the public don't seem to trust him and see Boris as best of them.

That's because Corbyn and his goons are about as useful as a fart in spacesuit.

Screaming "tax the rich!" or "nationalise everything!" endlessly with zero substance behind it only gets you so far.

Robert Shrimsley in the FT 

"Beyond Brexit, Labour has a coherent narrative. The last three years have been no advert for Tory efficiency and the last nine have not left most people feeling better off. Labour has a raft of policies with appeal to core groups. It has baubles for young and old, tenants and workers. It will not be outbid on public services. And while Mr Johnson's spending promises play well, voters' current experiences are of austerity and cuts. Labour can, for example, note that Mr Johnson's promised 20,000 extra police will only restore numbers to their 2010 level. Its message of a rigged society plays strongly, not least with many of those who voted Leave. This taps into a key point. Many of those who backed Brexit did so not out of a Faragist obsession with the EU, but out of a sense that the country had stopped working for them. "

Thanks for that Jeremy
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: balladmaker on November 08, 2019, 09:32:29 AM
In 2016, when SF held a commemoration in Westminster for the 100th Anniversary of 1916, up steps Corbyn to read the Proclamation.  Total respect 😊
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: gallsman on November 08, 2019, 10:06:56 AM
Quote from: balladmaker on November 08, 2019, 09:32:29 AM
In 2016, when SF held a commemoration in Westminster for the 100th Anniversary of 1916, up steps Corbyn to read the Proclamation.  Total respect 😊

Sweet, give him the keys to the NHS and the education system because of it.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 08, 2019, 10:10:02 AM
Could be a tough response on the doors for SF with Nurses now due to go on strike in NI. MON was the last health minister before SF collapsed Stormont and obviously didn't increase pay levels when they had the chance. Their "solidarity with Nurses" line rings a bit hollow.

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: tbrick18 on November 08, 2019, 10:34:17 AM
Quote from: gallsman on November 08, 2019, 09:04:42 AM
Quote from: Square Ball on November 07, 2019, 09:22:28 PM
Corbyn is up against a pathetic, hateful government, but the public don't seem to trust him and see Boris as best of them.

That's because Corbyn and his goons are about as useful as a fart in spacesuit.

Screaming "tax the rich!" or "nationalise everything!" endlessly with zero substance behind it only gets you so far.

What about "protect workers rights", "protect the nhs", protect the poor in society rather than demonise them....I think that gets you a bit further too.
For your quote above, I genuinely don't know where this opinion comes from. I hear similar things in the press or the panel shows from some people, but I have yet to hear what exact policy/policies this is based on. I'm not having a go, it's a genuine question....why do you have this opinion.
On the face of it I think Corbyn speaks a lot of sense and if I'm missing something about what he has/hasn't done I'd like to be educated!
Question Time last night, one of the panellists said that this Labour opposition have defeated the government more than any other opposition in history. I'm not sure if that's true, but if it is, surely that demonstrates that they are capable?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 08, 2019, 10:40:24 AM
Quote from: trailer on November 08, 2019, 10:10:02 AM
Could be a tough response on the doors for SF with Nurses now due to go on strike in NI. MON was the last health minister before SF collapsed Stormont and obviously didn't increase pay levels when they had the chance. Their "solidarity with Nurses" line rings a bit hollow.

NHS is a mess - whoever has it.  Slugger was on radio this morning.  In south he said, they call the Health brief Angola, as there's mindfields everywhere you turn.

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on November 08, 2019, 10:49:17 AM
I presume 8 DUPUDA shoe ins, hopefully they lose both North and South Belfast but will possibly gain North Down.
Presumably 5 SF shoe ins plus hopefully North Belfast and Fermanagh/Tyrone.
SDLP hopefully South Belfast and possibly "Foyle".
Have Alliance or the cowardly UUP any chance of a seat?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: gallsman on November 08, 2019, 10:53:33 AM
The problem is that Corbyn's gang don't actually have any solutions to anything. They can just criticise. I think we can all agree "Protect the NHS" is a great idea. The most important question is "how?". You only have to look at examples of Abbott and Corbyn himself bumbling around the place unable to work their calculators to demonstrate how much spoofing they actually do.

Defeats the UK government have suffered have been down to the bungling incompetence of the Tories and the fact the UK has absolutely no idea what it wants out of Brexit, not because of some political mastery from Corbyn. Look at the way he and Labour have flip flopped all over the place with regards to the election as an example. Look at his absolute inability to stop the party fracturing. "Hey lads, let's all agree to zero tolerance on racism and sectarianism" shouldn't be a difficult concept for a Labour leader to pull together.

And don't ever forget that he's a Brexiteer himself.

The UK is absolutely fucked. If it's a choice between Johnson or Corbyn, the best option would be to pack the bags and move abroad.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 08, 2019, 11:00:18 AM
Quote from: gallsman on November 08, 2019, 10:53:33 AM
The problem is that Corbyn's gang don't actually have any solutions to anything. They can just criticise. I think we can all agree "Protect the NHS" is a great idea. The most important question is "how?". You only have to look at examples of Abbott and Corbyn himself bumbling around the place unable to work their calculators to demonstrate how much spoofing they actually do.

Defeats the UK government have suffered have been down to the bungling incompetence of the Tories and the fact the UK has absolutely no idea what it wants out of Brexit, not because of some political mastery from Corbyn. Look at the way he and Labour have flip flopped all over the place with regards to the election as an example. Look at his absolute inability to stop the party fracturing. "Hey lads, let's all agree to zero tolerance on racism and sectarianism" shouldn't be a difficult concept for a Labour leader to pull together.

And don't ever forget that he's a Brexiteer himself.

The UK is absolutely fucked. If it's a choice between Johnson or Corbyn, the best option would be to pack the bags and move abroad.
They are going to invest in the UK and get growth going again.
No more austerity. those are solutions
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: gallsman on November 08, 2019, 11:05:21 AM
They're not solutions. They're aspirations.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 08, 2019, 11:12:32 AM
Quote from: gallsman on November 08, 2019, 11:05:21 AM
They're not solutions. They're aspirations.
There is enough money in the UK to kickstart growth.

BBC viewers seem to have a very negative view of Corbyn for some reason.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 08, 2019, 11:22:41 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 08, 2019, 10:49:17 AM
I presume 8 DUPUDA shoe ins, hopefully they lose both North and South Belfast but will possibly gain North Down.
Presumably 5 SF shoe ins plus hopefully North Belfast and Fermanagh/Tyrone.
SDLP hopefully South Belfast and possibly "Foyle".
Have Alliance or the cowardly UUP any chance of a seat?

Alliance best hope is in the east. I think they have a chance. I don't think the UUP have any chance at all.

Jury is our on whether north down will move to alliance. I don't think so though.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 08, 2019, 11:23:45 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 08, 2019, 11:12:32 AM
Quote from: gallsman on November 08, 2019, 11:05:21 AM
They're not solutions. They're aspirations.
There is enough money in the UK to kickstart growth.

BBC viewers seem to have a very negative view of Corbyn for some reason.

He doesn't help himself at times and needs to come down harder on gobshites within his own party like Ian Byrne who needs booted out.

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 08, 2019, 11:36:46 AM
The likes of that boy who quit the other day should have been long gone. Tom Watson was it?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 08, 2019, 11:43:12 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on November 08, 2019, 11:36:46 AM
The likes of that boy who quit the other day should have been long gone. Tom Watson was it?

Watson was his own man and had differing opinions to Corbyn but I don't think he was ever controversial in a disgusting manner like Mogg and the likes.

If anything he will be a loss to Labour as allegedly it was he that pushed hard on the second referendum policy with Corbyn against it.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 08, 2019, 11:53:17 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 08, 2019, 11:43:12 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on November 08, 2019, 11:36:46 AM
The likes of that boy who quit the other day should have been long gone. Tom Watson was it?

Watson was his own man and had differing opinions to Corbyn but I don't think he was ever controversial in a disgusting manner like Mogg and the likes.



Are you mad? His promotion of the fantasist paedophile Carl Beech and his disgusting lies about innocent people was outright criminal. If there's any justice, he'll do porridge for it.

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 08, 2019, 11:58:12 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on November 08, 2019, 11:22:41 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 08, 2019, 10:49:17 AM
I presume 8 DUPUDA shoe ins, hopefully they lose both North and South Belfast but will possibly gain North Down.
Presumably 5 SF shoe ins plus hopefully North Belfast and Fermanagh/Tyrone.
SDLP hopefully South Belfast and possibly "Foyle".
Have Alliance or the cowardly UUP any chance of a seat?

Alliance best hope is in the east. I think they have a chance. I don't think the UUP have any chance at all.

Jury is our on whether north down will move to alliance. I don't think so though.

I'd say ND is a safe DUP gain. The reason LSH held onto it for so long was because she abandoned the incompetent UUP long ago.

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 08, 2019, 12:06:25 PM
Quote from: five points on November 08, 2019, 11:53:17 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 08, 2019, 11:43:12 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on November 08, 2019, 11:36:46 AM
The likes of that boy who quit the other day should have been long gone. Tom Watson was it?

Watson was his own man and had differing opinions to Corbyn but I don't think he was ever controversial in a disgusting manner like Mogg and the likes.



Are you mad? His promotion of the fantasist paedophile Carl Beech and his disgusting lies about innocent people was outright criminal. If there's any justice, he'll do porridge for it.

Whilst you've a point, I think there's plenty in the Met Police and Scotland Yard who'll also do time for the Carl Beech episode.
Using parliamentary privilege to name people without hard evidence is hardly a new thing, just ask the Paisleys.

No doubt Watson will regret his involvement in that.

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: gallsman on November 08, 2019, 12:43:22 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 08, 2019, 11:12:32 AM
Quote from: gallsman on November 08, 2019, 11:05:21 AM
They're not solutions. They're aspirations.
There is enough money in the UK to kickstart growth.

BBC viewers seem to have a very negative view of Corbyn for some reason.

Yeah, everyone should get their news from Pravda instead.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: red hander on November 08, 2019, 12:45:33 PM
Quote from: gallsman on November 08, 2019, 12:43:22 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 08, 2019, 11:12:32 AM
Quote from: gallsman on November 08, 2019, 11:05:21 AM
They're not solutions. They're aspirations.
There is enough money in the UK to kickstart growth.

BBC viewers seem to have a very negative view of Corbyn for some reason.

Yeah, everyone should get their news from Pravda instead.

As opposed to Daily Mail, Express and Sun?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: gallsman on November 08, 2019, 12:48:16 PM
Quote from: red hander on November 08, 2019, 12:45:33 PM
Quote from: gallsman on November 08, 2019, 12:43:22 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 08, 2019, 11:12:32 AM
Quote from: gallsman on November 08, 2019, 11:05:21 AM
They're not solutions. They're aspirations.
There is enough money in the UK to kickstart growth.

BBC viewers seem to have a very negative view of Corbyn for some reason.

Yeah, everyone should get their news from Pravda instead.

As opposed to Daily Mail, Express and Sun?

The previous post explicitly references the BBC.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Franko on November 08, 2019, 01:09:51 PM
Quote from: gallsman on November 08, 2019, 10:53:33 AM
The problem is that Corbyn's gang don't actually have any solutions to anything. They can just criticise. I think we can all agree "Protect the NHS" is a great idea. The most important question is "how?". You only have to look at examples of Abbott and Corbyn himself bumbling around the place unable to work their calculators to demonstrate how much spoofing they actually do.

Defeats the UK government have suffered have been down to the bungling incompetence of the Tories and the fact the UK has absolutely no idea what it wants out of Brexit, not because of some political mastery from Corbyn. Look at the way he and Labour have flip flopped all over the place with regards to the election as an example. Look at his absolute inability to stop the party fracturing. "Hey lads, let's all agree to zero tolerance on racism and sectarianism" shouldn't be a difficult concept for a Labour leader to pull together.

And don't ever forget that he's a Brexiteer himself.

The UK is absolutely fucked. If it's a choice between Johnson or Corbyn, the best option would be to pack the bags and move abroad.

Unfortunately, back in the real world, that's not really an option for most.  It is indeed a choice between Johnson or Corbyn.  So it's Corbyn every day of the week.

I've been critical of him recently, mostly due to his (lack of) stance on Brexit.  But Labour now have a clear policy on this which I feel could be supported, which is about time.

Regarding his unfitness for office due his fiscal competency, I'm not sure if you've been reading too much of the Sun or whatever but I think it's wildly overblown.  Mentioning Abbott means I suspect that you've succumbed to the Tory propaganda massage that emanated from her failure to perform correct mental arithmetic on live TV.  Saying that they don't have solutions for anything is frankly, a bit lazy.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 08, 2019, 01:12:01 PM
Corbyn is incompetent and un-electable. Pandering to the unions and marxist left isn't what we need in a government.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: balladmaker on November 08, 2019, 01:17:35 PM
Quote from: gallsman on November 08, 2019, 10:53:33 AM
The problem is that Corbyn's gang don't actually have any solutions to anything. They can just criticise. I think we can all agree "Protect the NHS" is a great idea. The most important question is "how?". You only have to look at examples of Abbott and Corbyn himself bumbling around the place unable to work their calculators to demonstrate how much spoofing they actually do.

Defeats the UK government have suffered have been down to the bungling incompetence of the Tories and the fact the UK has absolutely no idea what it wants out of Brexit, not because of some political mastery from Corbyn. Look at the way he and Labour have flip flopped all over the place with regards to the election as an example. Look at his absolute inability to stop the party fracturing. "Hey lads, let's all agree to zero tolerance on racism and sectarianism" shouldn't be a difficult concept for a Labour leader to pull together.

And don't ever forget that he's a Brexiteer himself.

The UK is absolutely fucked. If it's a choice between Johnson or Corbyn, the best option would be to pack the bags and move abroad.

I'd prefer to have a border poll first.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: gallsman on November 08, 2019, 01:31:12 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 08, 2019, 01:09:51 PM
Quote from: gallsman on November 08, 2019, 10:53:33 AM
The problem is that Corbyn's gang don't actually have any solutions to anything. They can just criticise. I think we can all agree "Protect the NHS" is a great idea. The most important question is "how?". You only have to look at examples of Abbott and Corbyn himself bumbling around the place unable to work their calculators to demonstrate how much spoofing they actually do.

Defeats the UK government have suffered have been down to the bungling incompetence of the Tories and the fact the UK has absolutely no idea what it wants out of Brexit, not because of some political mastery from Corbyn. Look at the way he and Labour have flip flopped all over the place with regards to the election as an example. Look at his absolute inability to stop the party fracturing. "Hey lads, let's all agree to zero tolerance on racism and sectarianism" shouldn't be a difficult concept for a Labour leader to pull together.

And don't ever forget that he's a Brexiteer himself.

The UK is absolutely fucked. If it's a choice between Johnson or Corbyn, the best option would be to pack the bags and move abroad.

Unfortunately, back in the real world, that's not really an option for most.  It is indeed a choice between Johnson or Corbyn.  So it's Corbyn every day of the week.

I've been critical of him recently, mostly due to his (lack of) stance on Brexit.  But Labour now have a clear policy on this which I feel could be supported, which is about time.

Regarding his unfitness for office due his fiscal competency, I'm not sure if you've been reading too much of the Sun or whatever but I think it's wildly overblown.  Mentioning Abbott means I suspect that you've succumbed to the Tory propaganda massage that emanated from her failure to perform correct mental arithmetic on live TV.  Saying that they don't have solutions for anything is frankly, a bit lazy.

I haven't succumbed to Tory propaganda whatsoever, you don't have to. Herself and Corbyn have repeatedly exposed an inability to either be financially competent, or articulate said financial competency. Both, unfortunately, are necessary.

As for Labour having a clear stance on Brexit, do they really? Or is it simply electioneering?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 08, 2019, 01:38:44 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 08, 2019, 01:12:01 PM
Corbyn is incompetent and un-electable. Pandering to the unions and marxist left isn't what we need in a government.
Capital v Labour works like that

The UK economy is close to collapse. Another dose of the Tories would tip it into terminal crisis .
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Franko on November 08, 2019, 02:01:32 PM
Quote from: gallsman on November 08, 2019, 01:31:12 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 08, 2019, 01:09:51 PM
Quote from: gallsman on November 08, 2019, 10:53:33 AM
The problem is that Corbyn's gang don't actually have any solutions to anything. They can just criticise. I think we can all agree "Protect the NHS" is a great idea. The most important question is "how?". You only have to look at examples of Abbott and Corbyn himself bumbling around the place unable to work their calculators to demonstrate how much spoofing they actually do.

Defeats the UK government have suffered have been down to the bungling incompetence of the Tories and the fact the UK has absolutely no idea what it wants out of Brexit, not because of some political mastery from Corbyn. Look at the way he and Labour have flip flopped all over the place with regards to the election as an example. Look at his absolute inability to stop the party fracturing. "Hey lads, let's all agree to zero tolerance on racism and sectarianism" shouldn't be a difficult concept for a Labour leader to pull together.

And don't ever forget that he's a Brexiteer himself.

The UK is absolutely fucked. If it's a choice between Johnson or Corbyn, the best option would be to pack the bags and move abroad.

Unfortunately, back in the real world, that's not really an option for most.  It is indeed a choice between Johnson or Corbyn.  So it's Corbyn every day of the week.

I've been critical of him recently, mostly due to his (lack of) stance on Brexit.  But Labour now have a clear policy on this which I feel could be supported, which is about time.

Regarding his unfitness for office due his fiscal competency, I'm not sure if you've been reading too much of the Sun or whatever but I think it's wildly overblown.  Mentioning Abbott means I suspect that you've succumbed to the Tory propaganda massage that emanated from her failure to perform correct mental arithmetic on live TV.  Saying that they don't have solutions for anything is frankly, a bit lazy.

I haven't succumbed to Tory propaganda whatsoever, you don't have to. Herself and Corbyn have repeatedly exposed an inability to either be financially competent, or articulate said financial competency. Both, unfortunately, are necessary.

As for Labour having a clear stance on Brexit, do they really? Or is it simply electioneering?

No doubt you'll be fit to throw up a few examples of these repeated instances?

And yes.  It's clear and simple and has a lot more of a practical ring to it than 'Get Brexit Done'.  If you want to dismiss it as electioneering that's your prerogative.  I just don't see any basis for doing so.  Maybe you'd point out for us what it is that you're basing that on?

PS. Just to be clear.  I don't see Corbyn as some sort of saviour.  There are MANY things that I'd disagree with him on.  But it's a two horse race and he's an order of magnitude better than the alternative on pretty much every pertinent issue.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: tbrick18 on November 08, 2019, 02:22:24 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 08, 2019, 02:01:32 PM
Quote from: gallsman on November 08, 2019, 01:31:12 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 08, 2019, 01:09:51 PM
Quote from: gallsman on November 08, 2019, 10:53:33 AM
The problem is that Corbyn's gang don't actually have any solutions to anything. They can just criticise. I think we can all agree "Protect the NHS" is a great idea. The most important question is "how?". You only have to look at examples of Abbott and Corbyn himself bumbling around the place unable to work their calculators to demonstrate how much spoofing they actually do.

Defeats the UK government have suffered have been down to the bungling incompetence of the Tories and the fact the UK has absolutely no idea what it wants out of Brexit, not because of some political mastery from Corbyn. Look at the way he and Labour have flip flopped all over the place with regards to the election as an example. Look at his absolute inability to stop the party fracturing. "Hey lads, let's all agree to zero tolerance on racism and sectarianism" shouldn't be a difficult concept for a Labour leader to pull together.

And don't ever forget that he's a Brexiteer himself.

The UK is absolutely fucked. If it's a choice between Johnson or Corbyn, the best option would be to pack the bags and move abroad.

Unfortunately, back in the real world, that's not really an option for most.  It is indeed a choice between Johnson or Corbyn.  So it's Corbyn every day of the week.

I've been critical of him recently, mostly due to his (lack of) stance on Brexit.  But Labour now have a clear policy on this which I feel could be supported, which is about time.

Regarding his unfitness for office due his fiscal competency, I'm not sure if you've been reading too much of the Sun or whatever but I think it's wildly overblown.  Mentioning Abbott means I suspect that you've succumbed to the Tory propaganda massage that emanated from her failure to perform correct mental arithmetic on live TV.  Saying that they don't have solutions for anything is frankly, a bit lazy.

I haven't succumbed to Tory propaganda whatsoever, you don't have to. Herself and Corbyn have repeatedly exposed an inability to either be financially competent, or articulate said financial competency. Both, unfortunately, are necessary.

As for Labour having a clear stance on Brexit, do they really? Or is it simply electioneering?

No doubt you'll be fit to throw up a few examples of these repeated instances?

And yes.  It's clear and simple and has a lot more of a practical ring to it than 'Get Brexit Done'.  If you want to dismiss it as electioneering that's your prerogative.  I just don't see any basis for doing so.  Maybe you'd point out for us what it is that you're basing that on?

PS. Just to be clear.  I don't see Corbyn as some sort of saviour.  There are MANY things that I'd disagree with him on.  But it's a two horse race and he's an order of magnitude better than the alternative on pretty much every pertinent issue.

I'd agree with this.

Politicians are not accountants (perhaps some are) and so wont necessarily have the financial expertise to work out figures in their head or indeed on a spreadsheet. What they do need is the ability to understand the bigger financial picture based on the detail supplied and explained by the experts and subsequently make the big decisions when armed with the information.
In the same way that I'm sure the defence secretary, doesn't know how to drive a tank, fight a war or shoot a gun, they instead take a high level view with the minute detail managed by the experts.
For that reason, I don't know how opinions on Corbyn's or Abbot's financial capability are any more relevant that Boris Johnson's ability to act a foreign secretary. To me, that is all propaganda and not founded on anything close to evidence.

I think you have to base opinions on what the policies are and on the ability of the politician's to adjust their policy or view when evidence or opinion of the party or electorate change. You wouldn't be much of a politician/leader if you pick a policy or agenda then stick with it no matter what new information comes to light. A-la May and Brexit means Brexit, or Boris and leave no matter what.
This is the same argument for a 2nd referendum I suppose, but opinion changes and circumstances change so I think it's only right that policy should change or at least allow for change.

I think Labour got caught in the middle of that dilemma of there being no clear majority in favour of Leave/Remain, election/no-election, Left/Centre Left from within the party or the electorate. So they have taken time and formulated what they believe to be a policy, regarding Brexit, which would appeal to a majority. It is never going to satisfy everyone.

The question to ask yourself is regardless of views on Brexit, would life be better in a Boris led Tory government or a Corbyn led Labour government.

I know which I would prefer.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 08, 2019, 02:34:23 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on November 08, 2019, 02:22:24 PM

The question to ask yourself is regardless of views on Brexit, would life be better in a Boris led Tory government or a Corbyn led Labour government.


We all know what happened the last time Britain had an economically left-wing government.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on November 08, 2019, 03:15:32 PM
Ye poor Nordies have no say in who the next "UK" (In reality English) Government will be  :-\.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 08, 2019, 03:19:21 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 08, 2019, 03:15:32 PM
Ye poor Nordies have no say in who the next "UK" (In reality English) Government will be  :-\.

Says a poster ruled over by a bunch of corrupt gombeen men.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on November 08, 2019, 04:06:19 PM
That's a matter of opinion but we can and did  vote for them.
I wont mention RHI, smugglers, intimidation blah blah.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on November 08, 2019, 04:44:30 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 08, 2019, 03:19:21 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 08, 2019, 03:15:32 PM
Ye poor Nordies have no say in who the next "UK" (In reality English) Government will be  :-\.

Says a poster ruled over by a bunch of corrupt gombeen men.

Everyone is ruled over by a bunch of corrupt gombeen men.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Franko on November 08, 2019, 04:44:44 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 08, 2019, 03:15:32 PM
Ye poor Nordies have no say in who the next "UK" (In reality English) Government will be  :-\.

It's true.

I don't know what's worse though.  Not having a say, or using your say to vote into power the very party responsible for leaving your fellow countrymen in such a predicament.

And some of them aren't even ashamed of it.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 08, 2019, 05:11:33 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 08, 2019, 04:06:19 PM
That's a matter of opinion but we can and did  vote for them.
I wont mention RHI, smugglers, intimidation blah blah.

& don't we know it....bloody DUP at their usual antics yet again
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 08, 2019, 08:24:51 PM
Very interested to hear the further thoughts of those unhappy with the Labour proposal on Brexit.

For me the GB parties are putting forward the following 5 options:

1. No deal. Apparently this is not economic catastrophe and the mandate from a plebiscite that promised A and B is to deliver C.
2. A negotiated deal that does not place customs checks between NI and GB if you believe the PM but does if you believe the Brexit secretary or the NI secretary or if you have read the document. A deal that does commit UK to alignment with EU food standards, environment standards and employment rights but can override any of these if the Secretary of State makes a statement to the House of Commons (so not passing a piece of legislation, not passing a vote, just standing and reading out a statement). Those pushing this are not ruling out No Deal as the alternative.
3. Revoke Article 50 with no second referendum and no negotiations with the EU under any circumstances. This is proposed on the basis that it will provide certainty and resolve the issue for good. Those that voted Leave will just give up.
4. Second referendum with Undefined Leave vs Remain. This is proposed on the basis that it will deliver Remain as the electorate are not stupid enough to vote Leave (despite the fact that they already have) and the Leave Campaign(s) are not cunning enough to exploit the opportunity to use an undefined Leave option to promise everything to everyone (despite the fact they already have).
5. Second referendum with a defined Leave option run off against Remain. This will require a period of negotiation to see if any of the 3 deals that EU have offered to date can be improved upon.

Anyone who wants to remain needs to pick option 5. Anyone who wants the default to Remain to be something sensible (or as sensible as Leave can be) needs to pick option 5.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 09, 2019, 08:56:00 AM
Will the famous campaigner and man of the people Boris be meeting any actual voters during this campaign?

The befuddled mess he presented in Tandragee was the closest he came to an actual voter and the Tories aren't exactly competing for seats in NI.

I hear there was a tiny turnout for the official campaign launch so the had to huddle the attendees in one corner and reposition the cameras to make it look like a full house.

I'd say in the TV debates the other party leaders will push him on specifics. He seems all over the place on things like detail, facts and truth. The fact checkers will be on standby and the other leaders just have to herd him in that general direction
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 09, 2019, 10:11:09 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 09, 2019, 08:56:00 AM
Will the famous campaigner and man of the people Boris be meeting any actual voters during this campaign?

Modern political campaigns tend to depend on avoiding meeting ordinary voters wherever possible.

Incidents like Gordon Brown's 'bigoted woman' have seen to that.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 09, 2019, 11:07:16 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 09, 2019, 08:56:00 AM
Will the famous campaigner and man of the people Boris be meeting any actual voters during this campaign?

The befuddled mess he presented in Tandragee was the closest he came to an actual voter and the Tories aren't exactly competing for seats in NI.

I hear there was a tiny turnout for the official campaign launch so the had to huddle the attendees in one corner and reposition the cameras to make it look like a full house.

I'd say in the TV debates the other party leaders will push him on specifics. He seems all over the place on things like detail, facts and truth. The fact checkers will be on standby and the other leaders just have to herd him in that general direction

Completely agree. It's crazy how an incompetent charlatan has ended up in this position. I hear some political commentators say that it is all an act and that he is actually a very intelligent man. If that is the case then he is a hell of an actor. I can see it getting a lot worse for him as the campaign goes on because whilst Corbyn gets in among the people and draws vast crowds to rallys, Johnson looks as though he is way out of his comfort zone in having to meet people on the frontline who are living in the real world. His friends in large parts of the media will do their best to make him appear credible but the influence of newspapers is beginning to wane in terms of effecting popular opinion. By the time this election is over I think he will be severely weakened.

When it comes to the public debates all that his rivals will have to do is attack him on these details/facts and he will be left floundering. I think he will try and steer away from as much public scrutiny as possible for fear of being exposed even more.   
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: manfromdelmonte on November 09, 2019, 11:18:34 AM
Surely a vote for Sinn Fein is a wasted vote?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 09, 2019, 01:05:58 PM
Quote from: gallsman on November 08, 2019, 09:04:42 AM
Quote from: Square Ball on November 07, 2019, 09:22:28 PM
Corbyn is up against a pathetic, hateful government, but the public don't seem to trust him and see Boris as best of them.

That's because Corbyn and his goons are about as useful as a fart in spacesuit.

Screaming "tax the rich!" or "nationalise everything!" endlessly with zero substance behind it only gets you so far.

Do you genuinely believe the dung you post??

Has he said (or to use your fanciful language, "screamed") nationalise everything?? If he hasn't why do you lie about it?

Nationalisation does feature in the announcements to date. Of the services mentioned to date which do you disagree with? And on what grounds?

What part of the tax strategy announced to date do you disagree with?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 09, 2019, 01:07:46 PM
There is a debate Johnson will be in. Hopefully they go for the jugular.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 09, 2019, 01:19:46 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 08, 2019, 10:49:17 AM
I presume 8 DUPUDA shoe ins, hopefully they lose both North and South Belfast but will possibly gain North Down.
Presumably 5 SF shoe ins plus hopefully North Belfast and Fermanagh/Tyrone.
SDLP hopefully South Belfast and possibly "Foyle".
Have Alliance or the cowardly UUP any chance of a seat?
Alliance have no shoe ins. They do have 2 chances in East Belfast and North Down. The dynamics in those 2 are very different.

In East Belfast they have the party leader with the profile and recognition that comes with it. They have won the seat before and they have polled strongly there this year. DUP view the seat as there own. They will do what it takes to retain. The constituency has a mix and this includes pockets ruled by paramilitaries. To win the seat back from Alliance the DUP focused on getting turnout up in those wards. They will do the same. Alliance have to focus on getting the unionist Remain vote out for them.

North Down is harder predict. When an independent incumbent drops out its harder to predict where the vote moves on. You would think Alliance is the natural home and Farry the superior candidate
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on November 09, 2019, 01:54:38 PM
alliance will win no seats. the dupers have a lock on east Belfast and robinson will hold easily. in north down the dupers were almost on terms with her ladyship and they will easily swap aside alliance.

only a pure mug would want labour to win in the mainland, the party, once the dominant force in Scotland, may be lucky to win one seat up there.  unless you are blind, deaf or dumb, the only tactic and policy for this election that labour has, is to lock in all the muslins via postal votes, and just like in the recent  bye election in peterboro, hope to steal tight marginals with these locks.  labour is now the party of islam.


Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: t_mac on November 09, 2019, 01:57:37 PM
So would you rather have Bojo and that right wing loonies in power.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on November 09, 2019, 02:12:37 PM
Another right wing racist on the loose it seems.
Muslins
Mainland

Enough said!!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: illdecide on November 09, 2019, 02:22:17 PM
Alliance Party
Naomi Long

Conservative
Amandeep Bhogal

Democratic Unionist Party
Diane Dodds

Green Party
Clare Bailey

Sinn Féin
Martina Anderson

Social Democratic & Labour Party
Colum Eastwood

Traditional Unionist Voice
Jim Allister

Ulster Unionist Party
Danny Kennedy

UKIP
Robert Hill

Independent
Neil McCann
Jane Morrice

Right guys got the above list from bbc website...is that the lot? I'm not into my politics at all...TBh i hate the lot of them and when i see them on the news i turn it over. I haven't voted for a while for the reason just stated as I believe they're all useless.
Having said all that I believe this election is just too important to ignore this time and i'm not faced with the problem of who do i vote for? Obviously from a Nationalist background I can rule out DUP and UUP but who else is worthy of my vote and if the truth be told is it even worth my while? I used to vote Sinn Fein all the time in my younger days but now I'm not to impressed, SDLP what is the craic with them? Alliance is being considered but is there any point in voting for a party that won't get elected? So then does it all boil down to SF? everytime i see them on TV with DUP it turns into a shouting match and then the remote control gets a new channel to change to.

I'm not taking the pi55 here folks...genuinely haven't a clue about politics
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Windmill abu on November 09, 2019, 02:33:52 PM
Quote from: illdecide on November 09, 2019, 02:22:17 PM
Alliance Party
Naomi Long

Conservative
Amandeep Bhogal

Democratic Unionist Party
Diane Dodds

Green Party
Clare Bailey

Sinn Féin
Martina Anderson

Social Democratic & Labour Party
Colum Eastwood

Traditional Unionist Voice
Jim Allister

Ulster Unionist Party
Danny Kennedy

UKIP
Robert Hill

Independent
Neil McCann
Jane Morrice

Right guys got the above list from bbc website...is that the lot? I'm not into my politics at all...TBh i hate the lot of them and when i see them on the news i turn it over. I haven't voted for a while for the reason just stated as I believe they're all useless.
Having said all that I believe this election is just too important to ignore this time and i'm not faced with the problem of who do i vote for? Obviously from a Nationalist background I can rule out DUP and UUP but who else is worthy of my vote and if the truth be told is it even worth my while? I used to vote Sinn Fein all the time in my younger days but now I'm not to impressed, SDLP what is the craic with them? Alliance is being considered but is there any point in voting for a party that won't get elected? So then does it all boil down to SF? everytime i see them on TV with DUP it turns into a shouting match and then the remote control gets a new channel to change to.

I'm not taking the pi55 here folks...genuinely haven't a clue about politics

What is that list adout?
It's not a list of candidates in any one constituency. It's not even a list of party leaders.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 09, 2019, 02:35:11 PM
Is it meps?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: illdecide on November 09, 2019, 02:40:45 PM
Quote from: Windmill abu on November 09, 2019, 02:33:52 PM
Quote from: illdecide on November 09, 2019, 02:22:17 PM
Alliance Party
Naomi Long

Conservative
Amandeep Bhogal

Democratic Unionist Party
Diane Dodds

Green Party
Clare Bailey

Sinn Féin
Martina Anderson

Social Democratic & Labour Party
Colum Eastwood

Traditional Unionist Voice
Jim Allister

Ulster Unionist Party
Danny Kennedy

UKIP
Robert Hill

Independent
Neil McCann
Jane Morrice

Right guys got the above list from bbc website...is that the lot? I'm not into my politics at all...TBh i hate the lot of them and when i see them on the news i turn it over. I haven't voted for a while for the reason just stated as I believe they're all useless.
Having said all that I believe this election is just too important to ignore this time and i'm not faced with the problem of who do i vote for? Obviously from a Nationalist background I can rule out DUP and UUP but who else is worthy of my vote and if the truth be told is it even worth my while? I used to vote Sinn Fein all the time in my younger days but now I'm not to impressed, SDLP what is the craic with them? Alliance is being considered but is there any point in voting for a party that won't get elected? So then does it all boil down to SF? everytime i see them on TV with DUP it turns into a shouting match and then the remote control gets a new channel to change to.

I'm not taking the pi55 here folks...genuinely haven't a clue about politics

What is that list adout?
It's not a list of candidates in any one constituency. It's not even a list of party leaders.

Lol. thats how much i know, got that from BBC.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: illdecide on November 09, 2019, 02:43:55 PM
Where do you find the list of candidates?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 09, 2019, 02:52:17 PM
It's the list of candidates for a different parliament (European) on a different system on a different day that happens to have already past
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 09, 2019, 02:54:20 PM
Quote from: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on November 09, 2019, 01:54:38 PM
alliance will win no seats. the dupers have a lock on east Belfast and robinson will hold easily. in north down the dupers were almost on terms with her ladyship and they will easily swap aside alliance.

only a pure mug would want labour to win in the mainland, the party, once the dominant force in Scotland, may be lucky to win one seat up there.  unless you are blind, deaf or dumb, the only tactic and policy for this election that labour has, is to lock in all the muslins via postal votes, and just like in the recent  bye election in peterboro, hope to steal tight marginals with these locks.  labour is now the party of islam.
I working on the presumption that you are trolling for a response. You are probably not the deranged loon that this post portrays you to be.

Feel free to post something intelligible and I'll respond
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 09, 2019, 03:00:09 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 09, 2019, 02:52:17 PM
It's the list of candidates for a different parliament (European) on a different system on a different day that happens to have already past

Apart from that, Mrs. Lincoln............
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: t_mac on November 09, 2019, 06:13:00 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50361025 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50361025)
Will this not impede all the borrowing pledges.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 09, 2019, 06:16:50 PM
Quote from: t_mac on November 09, 2019, 06:13:00 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50361025 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50361025)
Will this not impede all the borrowing pledges.

Probably not. The cost of borrowing is the key. It may or may not  change by an amount that makes a difference
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 09, 2019, 08:39:26 PM
Quote from: illdecide on November 09, 2019, 02:22:17 PM
Alliance Party
Naomi Long

Conservative
Amandeep Bhogal

Democratic Unionist Party
Diane Dodds

Green Party
Clare Bailey

Sinn Féin
Martina Anderson

Social Democratic & Labour Party
Colum Eastwood

Traditional Unionist Voice
Jim Allister

Ulster Unionist Party
Danny Kennedy

UKIP
Robert Hill

Independent
Neil McCann
Jane Morrice

Right guys got the above list from bbc website...is that the lot? I'm not into my politics at all...TBh i hate the lot of them and when i see them on the news i turn it over. I haven't voted for a while for the reason just stated as I believe they're all useless.
Having said all that I believe this election is just too important to ignore this time and i'm not faced with the problem of who do i vote for? Obviously from a Nationalist background I can rule out DUP and UUP but who else is worthy of my vote and if the truth be told is it even worth my while? I used to vote Sinn Fein all the time in my younger days but now I'm not to impressed, SDLP what is the craic with them? Alliance is being considered but is there any point in voting for a party that won't get elected? So then does it all boil down to SF? everytime i see them on TV with DUP it turns into a shouting match and then the remote control gets a new channel to change to.

I'm not taking the pi55 here folks...genuinely haven't a clue about politics

It's not for anybody else to tell you how to vote, everyone will have their own priorities. Personally I'd vote candidate before party.

I think there will be a huge turnout this election if the DUPs antics in Westminster over the last 2/3 years isn't enough to bring people out then I don't know what will.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 09, 2019, 09:04:29 PM
Quote from: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on November 09, 2019, 01:54:38 PM
alliance will win no seats. the dupers have a lock on east Belfast and robinson will hold easily. in north down the dupers were almost on terms with her ladyship and they will easily swap aside alliance.

only a pure mug would want labour to win in the mainland, the party, once the dominant force in Scotland, may be lucky to win one seat up there.  unless you are blind, deaf or dumb, the only tactic and policy for this election that labour has, is to lock in all the muslins via postal votes, and just like in the recent  bye election in peterboro, hope to steal tight marginals with these locks.  labour is now the party of islam.

Alliance won a Euro seat. Lots of middle class Protestants abandoned the DUP
Labour will beat the Tories.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 09, 2019, 09:19:33 PM
I hope you're right but I think you are wrong.

Only twice have alliance got east Belfast. This election is different. The union depends on it. (Or alternatively the pricks who are supposed to be trying to preserve "the union" are advancing the cause of a United ireland by about a generation are stoking up tensions and claiming it's crucial to vote for them or the union will be in trouble).
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 09, 2019, 10:03:16 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on November 09, 2019, 09:19:33 PM
I hope you're right but I think you are wrong.

Only twice have alliance got east Belfast. This election is different. The union depends on it. (Or alternatively the pricks who are supposed to be trying to preserve "the union" are advancing the cause of a United ireland by about a generation are stoking up tensions and claiming it's crucial to vote for them or the union will be in trouble).

Correct. The DUP and loyalists have built this election into being about the future of the union and have reduced it to orange v green as with every election. Thankfully the SDLP and SF have thus far largely focussed on Brexit no point in getting sucked into their sectarian game of us v them since that will only play into their hands. It's probably not surprising given the DUPs handling of Brexit that they want to focus on 'saving the union' but if they lose a lot of votes snd seats then they can't argue if there are renewed calls for an immediate border poll in the aftermath. You can't have it both ways.

The fact that the DUP have given prominent loyalists more prominence in this campaign indicate how scared they are of losing seats in dome constituencies.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: balladmaker on November 10, 2019, 12:32:49 AM
The nightmare scenario is if the DUP were to make a gain in ND, and even with losing SB, return with 10 ... that would be sickening.  If ever a party deserved to take an electoral kicking, it's that shower.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: under the bar on November 10, 2019, 01:03:34 AM
Quote from: balladmaker on November 10, 2019, 12:32:49 AM
The nightmare scenario is if the DUP were to make a gain in ND, and even with losing SB, return with 10 ... that would be sickening.  If ever a party deserved to take an electoral kicking, it's that shower.

Look on the bright side.  Every DUPed Brexit MP returned is another nail in the coffin of the Union.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: balladmaker on November 10, 2019, 01:40:32 AM
Quote from: under the bar on November 10, 2019, 01:03:34 AM
Quote from: balladmaker on November 10, 2019, 12:32:49 AM
The nightmare scenario is if the DUP were to make a gain in ND, and even with losing SB, return with 10 ... that would be sickening.  If ever a party deserved to take an electoral kicking, it's that shower.

Look on the bright side.  Every DUPed Brexit MP returned is another nail in the coffin of the Union.

Very true.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 10, 2019, 09:13:02 AM
Unbelievably there has been up until point a group of people who would deny that there is a broad base of right wing newspapers that do the Tories bidding. I assume we can draw a line under that debate given the concerted plan on the front of the usual suspect papers this morning
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 10, 2019, 11:47:50 AM
Quote from: balladmaker on November 10, 2019, 12:32:49 AM
The nightmare scenario is if the DUP were to make a gain in ND, and even with losing SB, return with 10 ... that would be sickening.  If ever a party deserved to take an electoral kicking, it's that shower.
Back in May Diane Dodds campaigned on a platform of DUP for Brexit and a stronger Union.

That worldview has collapsed. Now it's either Brexit OR the Union . What it really means is that the DUP cannot escape the GFA. The DUP's failure is massive. How middle class Protestants vote will depend on what they think of this.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 10, 2019, 12:42:35 PM
Sf I still don't think you understand the voting demographic in ni. In at least five or six constituencies the dup can do whatever they want. They can do anything. They aren't Sinn Fein. That is all it takes.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 10, 2019, 02:33:05 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on November 10, 2019, 12:42:35 PM
Sf I still don't think you understand the voting demographic in ni. In at least five or six constituencies the dup can do whatever they want. They can do anything. They aren't Sinn Fein. That is all it takes.

They will still do ok in certain areas but Brexit will hurt them. We just don't know yet.
Nigel Dodds was demonstrating against a Brexit deal that the DUP did so much to support. That shows the state they are in.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: illdecide on November 10, 2019, 03:39:55 PM
Well like i said yesterday, I know nothing about politics only that the DUP are bigoted and corrupt as they come, I always used to vote SF but haven't voted the last few elections but this one def is as important as they'll ever be. I know it's my decision who i vote for but it just seems like i'm voting just for the sake of it and that no party deserves it, just cycling home this morning and seen election posters up around Craigavon from Alliance and i swear some young fella's face is on the poster and he looks about 17 ffs. Assuming he's older than that what the hell is that young fella going to know about it... ::)
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 10, 2019, 04:07:05 PM
Quote from: illdecide on November 10, 2019, 03:39:55 PM
Well like i said yesterday, I know nothing about politics only that the DUP are bigoted and corrupt as they come, I always used to vote SF but haven't voted the last few elections but this one def is as important as they'll ever be. I know it's my decision who i vote for but it just seems like i'm voting just for the sake of it and that no party deserves it, just cycling home this morning and seen election posters up around Craigavon from Alliance and i swear some young fella's face is on the poster and he looks about 17 ffs. Assuming he's older than that what the hell is that young fella going to know about it... ::)

As long as he's inoffensive, that's fine. Good old Alliance....let's not upset anybody & we will take a hit for team NI, when our arses get too sore, from sitting on the fence. No pacts here!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trileacman on November 10, 2019, 05:28:20 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 10, 2019, 04:07:05 PM
Quote from: illdecide on November 10, 2019, 03:39:55 PM
Well like i said yesterday, I know nothing about politics only that the DUP are bigoted and corrupt as they come, I always used to vote SF but haven't voted the last few elections but this one def is as important as they'll ever be. I know it's my decision who i vote for but it just seems like i'm voting just for the sake of it and that no party deserves it, just cycling home this morning and seen election posters up around Craigavon from Alliance and i swear some young fella's face is on the poster and he looks about 17 ffs. Assuming he's older than that what the hell is that young fella going to know about it... ::)

As long as he's inoffensive, that's fine. Good old Alliance....let's not upset anybody & we will take a hit for team NI, when our arses get too sore, from sitting on the fence. No pacts here!

Who you voting for? I assume it's not SF given their long history of arse sitting on the fence whilst important decisions are taken at Westminster without them.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trileacman on November 10, 2019, 05:33:05 PM
Quote from: illdecide on November 10, 2019, 03:39:55 PM
Well like i said yesterday, I know nothing about politics only that the DUP are bigoted and corrupt as they come, I always used to vote SF but haven't voted the last few elections but this one def is as important as they'll ever be. I know it's my decision who i vote for but it just seems like i'm voting just for the sake of it and that no party deserves it, just cycling home this morning and seen election posters up around Craigavon from Alliance and i swear some young fella's face is on the poster and he looks about 17 ffs. Assuming he's older than that what the hell is that young fella going to know about it... ::)

Vote for someone who you think will bring a positive change to NI politics or society. Voting for the Shinners because you don't like the DUP is like watching rugby for the sole reason being that you don't like soccer.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 10, 2019, 05:48:01 PM
There are some people on here who seem to watch rugby because they don't like rugby ;D

Yes vote for who you think will benefit you and if you think none of them then vote for the least worst...
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 10, 2019, 05:53:35 PM
Quote from: trileacman on November 10, 2019, 05:28:20 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 10, 2019, 04:07:05 PM
Quote from: illdecide on November 10, 2019, 03:39:55 PM
Well like i said yesterday, I know nothing about politics only that the DUP are bigoted and corrupt as they come, I always used to vote SF but haven't voted the last few elections but this one def is as important as they'll ever be. I know it's my decision who i vote for but it just seems like i'm voting just for the sake of it and that no party deserves it, just cycling home this morning and seen election posters up around Craigavon from Alliance and i swear some young fella's face is on the poster and he looks about 17 ffs. Assuming he's older than that what the hell is that young fella going to know about it... ::)

As long as he's inoffensive, that's fine. Good old Alliance....let's not upset anybody & we will take a hit for team NI, when our arses get too sore, from sitting on the fence. No pacts here!

Who you voting for? I assume it's not SF given their long history of arse sitting on the fence whilst important decisions are taken at Westminster without them.

I haven't voted since the referendum on the GFA, because of the woeful state of politics here - believe me, I see them all in action close up every day & it's, shall we say, pretty unedifying. However, since I have given off so much about the antics of the gun runner's daughter, I will be voting Claire Hanna on 12 December. Hopefully that's your question answered.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on November 10, 2019, 06:00:32 PM
As it's an undemocratic 1st past the post election -  in Nationalist majority constituencies vote for the Nationalist candidate with the best chance of taking the seat.
In others vote for whoever has a chance of unseating the DUPUDA candidate.
Depressing maybe but in the circumstances what else can ye do?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: 6th sam on November 10, 2019, 06:01:48 PM
Quote from: trileacman on November 10, 2019, 05:33:05 PM
Quote from: illdecide on November 10, 2019, 03:39:55 PM
Well like i said yesterday, I know nothing about politics only that the DUP are bigoted and corrupt as they come, I always used to vote SF but haven't voted the last few elections but this one def is as important as they'll ever be. I know it's my decision who i vote for but it just seems like i'm voting just for the sake of it and that no party deserves it, just cycling home this morning and seen election posters up around Craigavon from Alliance and i swear some young fella's face is on the poster and he looks about 17 ffs. Assuming he's older than that what the hell is that young fella going to know about it... ::)

Vote for someone who you think will bring a positive change to NI politics or society. Voting for the Shinners because you don't like the DUP is like watching rugby for the sole reason being that you don't like soccer.

In the opinion of Colum Eastwood, no
Less- Voting for someone because you don't  like the DUP, is a perfectly reasonable position to take. I think a lot of "moderate" unionists and nationalists need to take a long look at themselves. The DUP have a 50 year unrepentant history ( in positions of power and influence) of lining their pockets, shafting others, discrimination, links with paramilitarism . There's now an opportunity to stand up to them and knock them off some of their positions of influence . Only ~20% of the population vote for them but that's enough to put them in positions of power to perpetuate  their dinosaur stance. Of that 20% , several softer unionists vote for them simply because they are the largest unionist party and are viewed as the best way of maintaining the union( understandable but over simplistic analysis). The reality is that probably <10% of the population here hold staunch DUP Views but we continue to allow them the upper hand. What really annoys me is the insulting analysis that being anti-DUP is being sectarian when in actual fact it is  the exact opposite
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: 6th sam on November 10, 2019, 06:13:57 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 10, 2019, 06:00:32 PM
As it's an undemocratic 1st past the post election -  in Nationalist majority constituencies vote for the Nationalist candidate with the best chance of taking the seat.
In others vote for whoever has a chance of unseating the DUPUDA candidate.
Depressing maybe but in the circumstances what else can ye do?

In a nutshell , if you're a genuine "nationalist" that's the only position that makes sense . However many are "Nationalist" in name only and instead will stick to their historic party political loyalties.
The Alliance stance in this election has disappointed me, I can accept the rationale behind standing in all constituencies but whereas before the campaign they were clearly positively engaging with anti brexit parties , now they are putting party political gain before brexit and getting the boot into the SDLP rather than the DUP.

I fear this may be an election or two too early to completely crush the DUP, but we certainly have an opportunity to strike a significant blow on them. I hope the electorate are intelligent and motivated enough to take this opportunity .
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 10, 2019, 06:56:15 PM
On the DUP they are the incumbent in 10 seats. The chances of them losing any of East Derry, North Antrim, East Antrim, Lagan Valley, Upper Bann or Strangford is Zero. So for a start they are not going to get chinned in this election. Talk of this being 1 election too early doesn't address the fact that these seats are not under threat in the foreseeable. Disheartening though that is. For DUP to be under challenge in these constituencies you need at least 1 of the following to happen:
1. Political unionism to get its shit together and provide an alternative. Does anybody see any signs of this?
2. The sensible unionists move to Alliance in sufficient numbers. Possible.
3. A significant number of unionists move beyond constitutional based voting in a way that a majority of nationalists on this site say that they are not prepared to do. Anybody expecting this to happen?

In South Antrim and East Belfast a lot has to go right for DUP to be ousted. North and South Belfast are on a knife edge and North Down is a potential gain for DUP and their preferred candidate could well win FST. We get the politicians we deserve boys and girls.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 10, 2019, 07:07:30 PM
In SinnFeins party political broadcast will they be setting out the achievements of Mickey Brady, Órfhlaith Begley (she is the MP for West Tyrone), Francine Molloy (also an MP apparently), Paul Maskey (you might know his brother Alex), Michelle Gildernew, Chris Hazzard or Elisha McCallion?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on November 10, 2019, 07:28:34 PM
South belfast isnt on a knife edge. Even without the UUP pengelly is toast. Upper bann could be in play for SF in a cycle or 2. In SA people should vote for Kinahan a liberal remainer. The talk of Alliance taking this seat from nowhere is horse shit
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: illdecide on November 10, 2019, 07:56:01 PM
Having posted here and starting to take an interest I had a conversation there in my sisters house and the census there was "you're wasting your time voting anyway as we don't matter a shite"(referring to the overall English vote etc). Maybe that's true to a point but the DUP done enough a few weeks ago to have a say on Boris...

On the issue of who i vote for...some of the comments/advice have made me more indecisive than ever. Of course i want the DUP out but as i see it it's like this...the people in this Country that come from the big massive housing estates that don't know any better and have probably never ventured far from their own doors will vote SF/DUP depending on the estate which leaves me with..."I really want to change this place but we're pissing into the wind"
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on November 10, 2019, 09:30:21 PM
Quote from: illdecide on November 10, 2019, 07:56:01 PM
Having posted here and starting to take an interest I had a conversation there in my sisters house and the census there was "you're wasting your time voting anyway as we don't matter a shite"(referring to the overall English vote etc). Maybe that's true to a point but the DUP done enough a few weeks ago to have a say on Boris...

On the issue of who i vote for...some of the comments/advice have made me more indecisive than ever. Of course i want the DUP out but as i see it it's like this...the people in this Country that come from the big massive housing estates that don't know any better and have probably never ventured far from their own doors will vote SF/DUP depending on the estate which leaves me with..."I really want to change this place but we're pissing into the wind"

Which constituency are you in?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 10, 2019, 09:33:18 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 10, 2019, 02:33:05 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on November 10, 2019, 12:42:35 PM
Sf I still don't think you understand the voting demographic in ni. In at least five or six constituencies the dup can do whatever they want. They can do anything. They aren't Sinn Fein. That is all it takes.

They will still do ok in certain areas but Brexit will hurt them. We just don't know yet.
Nigel Dodds was demonstrating against a Brexit deal that the DUP did so much to support. That shows the state they are in.

It's irrelevant. They can do whatever they want and will win at least 6 seats at a canter. Look at the odds.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: illdecide on November 10, 2019, 09:40:32 PM
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on November 10, 2019, 09:30:21 PM
Quote from: illdecide on November 10, 2019, 07:56:01 PM
Having posted here and starting to take an interest I had a conversation there in my sisters house and the census there was "you're wasting your time voting anyway as we don't matter a shite"(referring to the overall English vote etc). Maybe that's true to a point but the DUP done enough a few weeks ago to have a say on Boris...

On the issue of who i vote for...some of the comments/advice have made me more indecisive than ever. Of course i want the DUP out but as i see it it's like this...the people in this Country that come from the big massive housing estates that don't know any better and have probably never ventured far from their own doors will vote SF/DUP depending on the estate which leaves me with..."I really want to change this place but we're pissing into the wind"

Which constituency are you in?

Upper Bann
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on November 10, 2019, 09:43:28 PM
Quote from: illdecide on November 10, 2019, 09:40:32 PM
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on November 10, 2019, 09:30:21 PM
Quote from: illdecide on November 10, 2019, 07:56:01 PM
Having posted here and starting to take an interest I had a conversation there in my sisters house and the census there was "you're wasting your time voting anyway as we don't matter a shite"(referring to the overall English vote etc). Maybe that's true to a point but the DUP done enough a few weeks ago to have a say on Boris...

On the issue of who i vote for...some of the comments/advice have made me more indecisive than ever. Of course i want the DUP out but as i see it it's like this...the people in this Country that come from the big massive housing estates that don't know any better and have probably never ventured far from their own doors will vote SF/DUP depending on the estate which leaves me with..."I really want to change this place but we're pissing into the wind"

Which constituency are you in?

Upper Bann

Well it should be a safe DUP seat. You never know though if Beatie can get some votes back or if there is a differential turnout then ODowd may have a chance but as I said earlier it's a long shot
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Ed Ricketts on November 10, 2019, 11:37:48 PM
It's important to vote, even if you know your candidate has little chance of success. Voting isn't always about instant gratification - it can take two, three, four attempts before your man or women gets over the line. Very often when a constituency flips you can track the momentum of new representative through several earlier elections - but that momentum needs people to get out and vote.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 11, 2019, 09:28:51 AM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/11/11/northern-ireland-veterans-get-new-protections-tories-announce/

Conservatives in general election manifesto pledge to end 'unfair trials' for Northern Ireland veterans
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 11, 2019, 09:36:20 AM
Quote from: Ed Ricketts on November 10, 2019, 11:37:48 PM
It's important to vote, even if you know your candidate has little chance of success. Voting isn't always about instant gratification - it can take two, three, four attempts before your man or women gets over the line. Very often when a constituency flips you can track the momentum of new representative through several earlier elections - but that momentum needs people to get out and vote.

Exactly. The only way this place will ever change - and it really really needs to - is the apathetic voters get out there and make some difference and stop it being dominated by the bitter entrenched people.

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 11, 2019, 10:18:36 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 11, 2019, 09:28:51 AM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/11/11/northern-ireland-veterans-get-new-protections-tories-announce/

Conservatives in general election manifesto pledge to end 'unfair trials' for Northern Ireland veterans

There are a good few veterans whose trials are long overdue. Some of them still in high public office.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on November 11, 2019, 10:27:24 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 10, 2019, 07:07:30 PM
In SinnFeins party political broadcast will they be setting out the achievements of Mickey Brady, Órfhlaith Begley (she is the MP for West Tyrone), Francine Molloy (also an MP apparently), Paul Maskey (you might know his brother Alex), Michelle Gildernew, Chris Hazzard or Elisha McCallion?

When you read this it really hits home how useless SF are
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 11, 2019, 11:35:16 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 10, 2019, 07:07:30 PM
In SinnFeins party political broadcast will they be setting out the achievements of Mickey Brady, Órfhlaith Begley (she is the MP for West Tyrone), Francine Molloy (also an MP apparently), Paul Maskey (you might know his brother Alex), Michelle Gildernew, Chris Hazzard or Elisha McCallion?

Mickey Brady has been the MP for Newry/Armagh for God knows how long and I have never heard the man speak. He's never on TV or Radio.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 11, 2019, 11:53:34 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 11, 2019, 09:28:51 AM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/11/11/northern-ireland-veterans-get-new-protections-tories-announce/

Conservatives in general election manifesto pledge to end 'unfair trials' for Northern Ireland veterans

Tories playing to the gallery on Remembrance Day. This proposal is unwelcome but also doesn't do the things the headlines pretend it does.

No impact on ongoing criminal trials
No impact on ongoing inquiries that the judiciary have instructed
No impact on future inquiries/legal cases where there has been no prior investigation
No impact on cases where new evidence has emerged

There is a lot of grey areas there on what constitutes new evidence and what constitutes a prior investigation. Grey areas that will be interpreted by the judiciary rather than politicians
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 11, 2019, 11:54:11 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on November 11, 2019, 10:27:24 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 10, 2019, 07:07:30 PM
In SinnFeins party political broadcast will they be setting out the achievements of Mickey Brady, Órfhlaith Begley (she is the MP for West Tyrone), Francine Molloy (also an MP apparently), Paul Maskey (you might know his brother Alex), Michelle Gildernew, Chris Hazzard or Elisha McCallion?

When you read this it really hits home how useless SF are

Only good thing is that it should in theory be a very short broadcast.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on November 11, 2019, 12:06:11 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 11, 2019, 11:54:11 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on November 11, 2019, 10:27:24 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 10, 2019, 07:07:30 PM
In SinnFeins party political broadcast will they be setting out the achievements of Mickey Brady, Órfhlaith Begley (she is the MP for West Tyrone), Francine Molloy (also an MP apparently), Paul Maskey (you might know his brother Alex), Michelle Gildernew, Chris Hazzard or Elisha McCallion?

When you read this it really hits home how useless SF are

Only good thing is that it should in theory be a very short broadcast.

;D
Micky Brady, honestly I cant even get a picture of him in my head, and I am not saying that for effect.
Begley, mmm naw I really don't rate her or know of anything she has done. Seems nice, but robot talk all the time.
Francie, I thought he had retired. Expect him to be down the local in the corner talking shite.
Maskey, he is bald I think.
Gildernew. I like her.
Hazzard-he is on twitter now talking about Bolivia, the new Maduro feck up fro SF. Anything to appear lefty
Elisha Dolittle-Clean useless. Great that she managed to brave the rain this week. What a hero. I could stick the knife into her in so many ways but I think most people in Derry know it all already, voter fraud the latest

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 11, 2019, 12:22:42 PM
Farage has fucked it then!!!! All hail king Boris!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 11, 2019, 12:23:33 PM
Farage just announced that he is stepping down candidates in Tory constituencies, big boost to Boris Johnson and all Brexiteers.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 11, 2019, 12:24:53 PM
He was always going to. A coward who thinks he's important and is no more than a stain on society.

Boris is clearly going to win this election. I would be very happy to be wrong but I doubt I am going to be.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 11, 2019, 12:31:09 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on November 11, 2019, 12:24:53 PM
He was always going to. A coward who thinks he's important and is no more than a stain on society.

Boris is clearly going to win this election. I would be very happy to be wrong but I doubt I am going to be.

It looks very much like it now. I think the thought of Corbyn in 10 Downing Street (he had started the campaign off well) helped make this his decision for him. Surely even Johnson can't fcuk it up from here. 
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 11, 2019, 12:33:35 PM
I wonder would there be any chance of impeaching Boris at any stage. He'd definitely be a candidate for it.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 11, 2019, 12:36:03 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 11, 2019, 12:23:33 PM
Farage just announced that he is stepping down candidates in Tory constituencies, big boost to Boris Johnson and all Brexiteers.

A big help to BoJo in fending off Labour and specifically LD. Not much help to him in the seats he wants to win to get a majority and or offset any he loses. Makes it easier for Labour to to say if you can't stomach voting Tory don't vote Brexit- they are one and the same.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Ambrose on November 11, 2019, 12:36:44 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on November 11, 2019, 12:06:11 PM
Micky Brady, honestly I cant even get a picture of him in my head, and I am not saying that for effect.

Anti-republican, anti hunger striker, typical modern day Shinner. Lifelong member of the Workers Party and senior member of the 'Officials' in Newry.
Ran a successful welfare advice centre in Newry and managed to increase the SF vote at the last Westminster election.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: bennydorano on November 11, 2019, 01:06:11 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 11, 2019, 12:36:03 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 11, 2019, 12:23:33 PM
Farage just announced that he is stepping down candidates in Tory constituencies, big boost to Boris Johnson and all Brexiteers.

A big help to BoJo in fending off Labour and specifically LD. Not much help to him in the seats he wants to win to get a majority and or offset any he loses. Makes it easier for Labour to to say if you can't stomach voting Tory don't vote Brexit- they are one and the same.
It's game over.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Windmill abu on November 11, 2019, 01:21:20 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on November 11, 2019, 12:06:11 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 11, 2019, 11:54:11 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on November 11, 2019, 10:27:24 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 10, 2019, 07:07:30 PM
In SinnFeins party political broadcast will they be setting out the achievements of Mickey Brady, Órfhlaith Begley (she is the MP for West Tyrone), Francine Molloy (also an MP apparently), Paul Maskey (you might know his brother Alex), Michelle Gildernew, Chris Hazzard or Elisha McCallion?

When you read this it really hits home how useless SF are

Only good thing is that it should in theory be a very short broadcast.

;D
Micky Brady, honestly I cant even get a picture of him in my head, and I am not saying that for effect.
Begley, mmm naw I really don't rate her or know of anything she has done. Seems nice, but robot talk all the time.
Francie, I thought he had retired. Expect him to be down the local in the corner talking shite.
Maskey, he is bald I think.
Gildernew. I like her.
Hazzard-he is on twitter now talking about Bolivia, the new Maduro feck up fro SF. Anything to appear lefty
Elisha Dolittle-Clean useless. Great that she managed to brave the rain this week. What a hero. I could stick the knife into her in so many ways but I think most people in Derry know it all already, voter fraud the latest

If all the above are as poor as you think, then no one will vote for them.

If the majority in their constituencies prefer them to the other candidates then they will elect them.

That is how democracy works.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 11, 2019, 01:48:56 PM
Quote from: Windmill abu on November 11, 2019, 01:21:20 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on November 11, 2019, 12:06:11 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 11, 2019, 11:54:11 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on November 11, 2019, 10:27:24 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 10, 2019, 07:07:30 PM
In SinnFeins party political broadcast will they be setting out the achievements of Mickey Brady, Órfhlaith Begley (she is the MP for West Tyrone), Francine Molloy (also an MP apparently), Paul Maskey (you might know his brother Alex), Michelle Gildernew, Chris Hazzard or Elisha McCallion?

When you read this it really hits home how useless SF are

Only good thing is that it should in theory be a very short broadcast.

;D
Micky Brady, honestly I cant even get a picture of him in my head, and I am not saying that for effect.
Begley, mmm naw I really don't rate her or know of anything she has done. Seems nice, but robot talk all the time.
Francie, I thought he had retired. Expect him to be down the local in the corner talking shite.
Maskey, he is bald I think.
Gildernew. I like her.
Hazzard-he is on twitter now talking about Bolivia, the new Maduro feck up fro SF. Anything to appear lefty
Elisha Dolittle-Clean useless. Great that she managed to brave the rain this week. What a hero. I could stick the knife into her in so many ways but I think most people in Derry know it all already, voter fraud the latest

If all the above are as poor as you think, then no one will vote for them.

If the majority in their constituencies prefer them to the other candidates then they will elect them.

That is how democracy works.

Your first sentence is simply not true. These MPs are useless. Most sit in seats that anybody no matter how useless would win under the SF brand. Others sit in constituencies that run off a useless "usun" against a useless "themun". We have 2 electorally successful parties that run this system and hoover up the votes. What do they deliver?? We know the answer to that. SF and DUP know the answer as well.

A simple ask would be the 2 parties to publish the achievements of their candidates and where their candidate is the incumbent specifically what they have done with that office for their constituents and the people of NI.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Square Ball on November 11, 2019, 02:43:47 PM
With the Brexit party not standing in any seats the Torys are running in think they will now get a majority as I can see them taking a few seats off Labour
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 11, 2019, 02:45:57 PM
Quote from: Windmill abu on November 11, 2019, 01:21:20 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on November 11, 2019, 12:06:11 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 11, 2019, 11:54:11 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on November 11, 2019, 10:27:24 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 10, 2019, 07:07:30 PM
In SinnFeins party political broadcast will they be setting out the achievements of Mickey Brady, Órfhlaith Begley (she is the MP for West Tyrone), Francine Molloy (also an MP apparently), Paul Maskey (you might know his brother Alex), Michelle Gildernew, Chris Hazzard or Elisha McCallion?

When you read this it really hits home how useless SF are

Only good thing is that it should in theory be a very short broadcast.

;D
Micky Brady, honestly I cant even get a picture of him in my head, and I am not saying that for effect.
Begley, mmm naw I really don't rate her or know of anything she has done. Seems nice, but robot talk all the time.
Francie, I thought he had retired. Expect him to be down the local in the corner talking shite.
Maskey, he is bald I think.
Gildernew. I like her.
Hazzard-he is on twitter now talking about Bolivia, the new Maduro feck up fro SF. Anything to appear lefty
Elisha Dolittle-Clean useless. Great that she managed to brave the rain this week. What a hero. I could stick the knife into her in so many ways but I think most people in Derry know it all already, voter fraud the latest

If all the above are as poor as you think, then no one will vote for them.

If the majority in their constituencies prefer them to the other candidates then they will elect them.

That is how democracy works.

Vote early, vote often, don't go to London too often -  that is how democracy really works. Or don't go to Stormont too often either, even though you're being paid a travel allowance to do so.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 11, 2019, 02:56:01 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on November 11, 2019, 12:33:35 PM
I wonder would there be any chance of impeaching Boris at any stage. He'd definitely be a candidate for it.

Desperation.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 11, 2019, 03:02:37 PM
Quote from: Square Ball on November 11, 2019, 02:43:47 PM
With the Brexit party not standing in any seats the Torys are running in think they will now get a majority as I can see them taking a few seats off Labour

I think you may be correct, Farage's decision has just changed the whole election landscape.

Worse still, the Tories will fall just short of a majority and rely on the Brexit Party to form a government. I suppose it couldn't be any worse than a Tory/DUP government.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: outinfront on November 11, 2019, 03:04:55 PM
Get rid of the DUP they can sacrifice NI for an English Nationalist Brexit.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 11, 2019, 03:06:41 PM
This Brexit thing has made two of the most odious "leaders" in the history of politics (Farage and Foster) go from complete insignificance to a feeling of importance very quickly. It really hasn't been enjoyable at all.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 11, 2019, 03:07:13 PM
Quote from: Square Ball on November 11, 2019, 02:43:47 PM
With the Brexit party not standing in any seats the Torys are running in think they will now get a majority as I can see them taking a few seats off Labour

This is a concern.

The only hope in this election is Labour keeping a share of the Leave vote. The key to that is keeping the agenda wide and focussing on Non Brexit issues specifically some of the concerns that wrongheadedly got people talked into Leave in the first place
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 11, 2019, 03:07:31 PM
Quote from: Windmill abu on November 11, 2019, 01:21:20 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on November 11, 2019, 12:06:11 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 11, 2019, 11:54:11 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on November 11, 2019, 10:27:24 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 10, 2019, 07:07:30 PM
In SinnFeins party political broadcast will they be setting out the achievements of Mickey Brady, Órfhlaith Begley (she is the MP for West Tyrone), Francine Molloy (also an MP apparently), Paul Maskey (you might know his brother Alex), Michelle Gildernew, Chris Hazzard or Elisha McCallion?

When you read this it really hits home how useless SF are

Only good thing is that it should in theory be a very short broadcast.

;D
Micky Brady, honestly I cant even get a picture of him in my head, and I am not saying that for effect.
Begley, mmm naw I really don't rate her or know of anything she has done. Seems nice, but robot talk all the time.
Francie, I thought he had retired. Expect him to be down the local in the corner talking shite.
Maskey, he is bald I think.
Gildernew. I like her.
Hazzard-he is on twitter now talking about Bolivia, the new Maduro feck up fro SF. Anything to appear lefty
Elisha Dolittle-Clean useless. Great that she managed to brave the rain this week. What a hero. I could stick the knife into her in so many ways but I think most people in Derry know it all already, voter fraud the latest

If all the above are as poor as you think, then no one will vote for them.

If the majority in their constituencies prefer them to the other candidates then they will elect them.

That is how democracy works.

At best this is naive, at worse you actually believe this.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on November 11, 2019, 03:09:08 PM
Quote from: Windmill abu on November 11, 2019, 01:21:20 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on November 11, 2019, 12:06:11 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 11, 2019, 11:54:11 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on November 11, 2019, 10:27:24 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 10, 2019, 07:07:30 PM
In SinnFeins party political broadcast will they be setting out the achievements of Mickey Brady, Órfhlaith Begley (she is the MP for West Tyrone), Francine Molloy (also an MP apparently), Paul Maskey (you might know his brother Alex), Michelle Gildernew, Chris Hazzard or Elisha McCallion?

When you read this it really hits home how useless SF are

Only good thing is that it should in theory be a very short broadcast.

;D
Micky Brady, honestly I cant even get a picture of him in my head, and I am not saying that for effect.
Begley, mmm naw I really don't rate her or know of anything she has done. Seems nice, but robot talk all the time.
Francie, I thought he had retired. Expect him to be down the local in the corner talking shite.
Maskey, he is bald I think.
Gildernew. I like her.
Hazzard-he is on twitter now talking about Bolivia, the new Maduro feck up fro SF. Anything to appear lefty
Elisha Dolittle-Clean useless. Great that she managed to brave the rain this week. What a hero. I could stick the knife into her in so many ways but I think most people in Derry know it all already, voter fraud the latest

If all the above are as poor as you think, then no one will vote for them.

If the majority in their constituencies prefer them to the other candidates then they will elect them.

That is how democracy works.

Surely you are taking the piss here
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 11, 2019, 03:24:08 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 11, 2019, 03:02:37 PM
Quote from: Square Ball on November 11, 2019, 02:43:47 PM
With the Brexit party not standing in any seats the Torys are running in think they will now get a majority as I can see them taking a few seats off Labour

I think you may be correct, Farage's decision has just changed the whole election landscape.

Worse still, the Tories will fall just short of a majority and rely on the Brexit Party to form a government. I suppose it couldn't be any worse than a Tory/DUP government.

The Brexit party probably won't win any seats in a FPTP election but they just might take enough Leave votes from Labour to allow a Tory candidate in and that's where they've a hand to play.

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 11, 2019, 03:57:41 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/brexit-is-pushing-the-more-liberal-unionists-down-a-different-path-1.4055430

"Moderate, wealthier unionists could be turned off by hard-core Brexit rhetoric. Overlooking Shore Road is Fortwilliam Golf Club. Like a lot of the residents of this more comfortable part of north Belfast, honorary secretary Michael Graham is a Catholic and a moderate nationalist. He sees his unionist friends, however, becoming increasingly uncertain over the DUP's Brexit strategy, which in turn is changing long-held political views.
"One of the things I'm finding about Brexit is it's pushing the more liberal unionists down a different path than perhaps they were on before," he says. Now, over pints, his Protestant friends discuss and debate what a 'new Ireland' would look like – not an extension of the Republic, but a new constitutional and political entity. "This is my Protestant friends talking to me in a language they have never used before," he says. "To them, it's unfathomable that the DUP should take that line of action to maintain their precious union," he says.
However, DUP figures disagree. Philip Brett, a DUP councillor in the area who works with Dodds and was in Westminster during the dramatic hours after the deal was announced on Thursday, says: "This is one of the few issues that unites unionists from all perspectives."
Nonetheless, Prof Duncan Morrow of Ulster University says the DUP could be vulnerable. "At the moment, part of the problem is they put all their eggs in the one basket, which has failed and come under huge criticism from the other unionist parties," he says."
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Minder on November 11, 2019, 05:14:12 PM
Surely to get "Brexit done" the Tories will need a majority, and to do that gain current Labour seats. Brexit party will surely cut into Tory vote in some Labour seats. I don't think it's as straightforward as some think
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: t_mac on November 11, 2019, 05:19:33 PM
Quote from: Minder on November 11, 2019, 05:14:12 PM
Surely to get "Brexit done" the Tories will need a majority, and to do that gain current Labour seats. Brexit party will surely cut into Tory vote in some Labour seats. I don't think it's as straightforward as some think

They will take enough hard brexit labour voters to allow conservatives to win.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: t_mac on November 11, 2019, 05:24:08 PM
Quote from: Ambrose on November 11, 2019, 12:36:44 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on November 11, 2019, 12:06:11 PM
Micky Brady, honestly I cant even get a picture of him in my head, and I am not saying that for effect.

Anti-republican, anti hunger striker, typical modern day Shinner. Lifelong member of the Workers Party and senior member of the 'Officials' in Newry.
Ran a successful welfare advice centre in Newry and managed to increase the SF vote at the last Westminster election.

Must avoid Armagh like the plague, or TV for that matter.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Square Ball on November 11, 2019, 05:52:40 PM
As thought, no one gives a fook about NI

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/11/11/four-ten-mainland-britons-dont-care-about-northern
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 11, 2019, 06:06:31 PM
Quote from: Square Ball on November 11, 2019, 05:52:40 PM
As thought, no one gives a fook about NI

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/11/11/four-ten-mainland-britons-dont-care-about-northern

"Precious union"....me feckin hole.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 11, 2019, 06:25:24 PM
Quote from: Square Ball on November 11, 2019, 05:52:40 PM
As thought, no one gives a fook about NI

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/11/11/four-ten-mainland-britons-dont-care-about-northern

I'm just surprised that 51% do actually care, they mustn't realise that it is costing them £11 billion a year just to run the place more than what it costs them to stay in the EU p.a.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 11, 2019, 06:42:27 PM
They don't care, really, it's just that they've never heard of the place.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 11, 2019, 06:53:28 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 11, 2019, 06:25:24 PM
Quote from: Square Ball on November 11, 2019, 05:52:40 PM
As thought, no one gives a fook about NI

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/11/11/four-ten-mainland-britons-dont-care-about-northern

I'm just surprised that 51% do actually care, they mustn't realise that it is costing them £11 billion a year just to run the place more than what it costs them to stay in the EU p.a.

The £11bn is not a huge issue. Never features in debate. At less than £170 per head it's unlikely to get traction even if a party picked it up
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on November 11, 2019, 07:01:06 PM
It would be about €2,500 per hear if we were asked to pick up that tab on re unification.
Or around €5,500 per worker......

How much tax does Westminster collect from the 6 Cos?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 11, 2019, 07:05:03 PM
Very little, cos the Free Presbyterians collect the tithe off the PUL.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 11, 2019, 07:07:15 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 11, 2019, 07:01:06 PM
It would be about €2,500 per hear if we were asked to pick up that tab on re unification.
Or around €5,500 per worker......

How much tax does Westminster collect from the 6 Cos?

Not sure but the £11bn is net after collection of tax. So yeah a family of say 5 it's €12.5k for public services that you wouldn't actually receive. I just can't see that flying with the RoI electorate

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: armaghniac on November 11, 2019, 07:26:34 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 11, 2019, 07:01:06 PM
It would be about €2,500 per hear if we were asked to pick up that tab on re unification.
Or around €5,500 per worker......

How much tax does Westminster collect from the 6 Cos?

expenditure is around £24bn, so tax is around 13Bn.
However, some argue that some tax is not clearly allocated, e.g. big companies based in Britain with substantial operations in NI.
One consequence of the new arrangements is that the sales of Tesco etc in NI will be clearer.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Windmill abu on November 11, 2019, 07:57:52 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on November 11, 2019, 03:09:08 PM
Quote from: Windmill abu on November 11, 2019, 01:21:20 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on November 11, 2019, 12:06:11 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 11, 2019, 11:54:11 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on November 11, 2019, 10:27:24 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 10, 2019, 07:07:30 PM
In SinnFeins party political broadcast will they be setting out the achievements of Mickey Brady, Órfhlaith Begley (she is the MP for West Tyrone), Francine Molloy (also an MP apparently), Paul Maskey (you might know his brother Alex), Michelle Gildernew, Chris Hazzard or Elisha McCallion?

When you read this it really hits home how useless SF are

Only good thing is that it should in theory be a very short broadcast.

;D
Micky Brady, honestly I cant even get a picture of him in my head, and I am not saying that for effect.
Begley, mmm naw I really don't rate her or know of anything she has done. Seems nice, but robot talk all the time.
Francie, I thought he had retired. Expect him to be down the local in the corner talking shite.
Maskey, he is bald I think.
Gildernew. I like her.
Hazzard-he is on twitter now talking about Bolivia, the new Maduro feck up fro SF. Anything to appear lefty
Elisha Dolittle-Clean useless. Great that she managed to brave the rain this week. What a hero. I could stick the knife into her in so many ways but I think most people in Derry know it all already, voter fraud the latest

If all the above are as poor as you think, then no one will vote for them.

If the majority in their constituencies prefer them to the other candidates then they will elect them.

That is how democracy works.

Surely you are taking the piss here

I am simply pointing out how democracy works.

The result of the election may not suit you as an individual, but unless you go against the will of the majority of the people in any constituency and try to impose someone else to represent them, then democracy must be observed.

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 11, 2019, 08:02:42 PM
Quote from: Windmill abu on November 11, 2019, 07:57:52 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on November 11, 2019, 03:09:08 PM
Quote from: Windmill abu on November 11, 2019, 01:21:20 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on November 11, 2019, 12:06:11 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 11, 2019, 11:54:11 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on November 11, 2019, 10:27:24 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 10, 2019, 07:07:30 PM
In SinnFeins party political broadcast will they be setting out the achievements of Mickey Brady, Órfhlaith Begley (she is the MP for West Tyrone), Francine Molloy (also an MP apparently), Paul Maskey (you might know his brother Alex), Michelle Gildernew, Chris Hazzard or Elisha McCallion?

When you read this it really hits home how useless SF are

Only good thing is that it should in theory be a very short broadcast.

;D
Micky Brady, honestly I cant even get a picture of him in my head, and I am not saying that for effect.
Begley, mmm naw I really don't rate her or know of anything she has done. Seems nice, but robot talk all the time.
Francie, I thought he had retired. Expect him to be down the local in the corner talking shite.
Maskey, he is bald I think.
Gildernew. I like her.
Hazzard-he is on twitter now talking about Bolivia, the new Maduro feck up fro SF. Anything to appear lefty
Elisha Dolittle-Clean useless. Great that she managed to brave the rain this week. What a hero. I could stick the knife into her in so many ways but I think most people in Derry know it all already, voter fraud the latest

If all the above are as poor as you think, then no one will vote for them.

If the majority in their constituencies prefer them to the other candidates then they will elect them.

That is how democracy works.

Surely you are taking the piss here

I am simply pointing out how democracy works.

The result of the election may not suit you as an individual, but unless you go against the will of the majority of the people in any constituency and try to impose someone else to represent them, then democracy must be observed.

Not one person has argued that this is not how democracy works or that democracy should not be observed. The point was how useless the elected MPs are
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 11, 2019, 08:02:59 PM
Quote from: Minder on November 11, 2019, 05:14:12 PM
Surely to get "Brexit done" the Tories will need a majority, and to do that gain current Labour seats. Brexit party will surely cut into Tory vote in some Labour seats. I don't think it's as straightforward as some think
Me neither
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 11, 2019, 08:05:34 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on November 11, 2019, 07:26:34 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 11, 2019, 07:01:06 PM
It would be about €2,500 per hear if we were asked to pick up that tab on re unification.
Or around €5,500 per worker......

How much tax does Westminster collect from the 6 Cos?

expenditure is around £24bn, so tax is around 13Bn.
However, some argue that some tax is not clearly allocated, e.g. big companies based in Britain with substantial operations in NI.
One consequence of the new arrangements is that the sales of Tesco etc in NI will be clearer.

Not sure that the Tesco data will be of much use. Tesco can report their UK profit however they see fit. Nothing in BoJos deal will change that. Likewise NI companies with GB operations
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: GJL on November 11, 2019, 09:09:33 PM
Conservative majority now at 4/7. No overall majority at 13/8 with Labour majority at 20/1.

As they say, bookies rarely get it wrong!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Orior on November 11, 2019, 09:36:00 PM
Quote from: GJL on November 11, 2019, 09:09:33 PM
Conservative majority now at 4/7. No overall majority at 13/8 with Labour majority at 20/1.

As they say, bookies rarely get it wrong!

Oh dear. Border down the Irish sea. The DUP will find this rather upsetting.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: drillsergeant on November 12, 2019, 01:15:29 AM
Quote from: Orior on November 11, 2019, 09:36:00 PM
Quote from: GJL on November 11, 2019, 09:09:33 PM
Conservative majority now at 4/7. No overall majority at 13/8 with Labour majority at 20/1.

As they say, bookies rarely get it wrong!

Oh dear. Border down the Irish sea. The DUP will find this rather upsetting.

Oh won't they just, another Conservative government selling the Ulster men out lol! It just be like 1985 Anglo Irish Agreement all over again. Arlene,Dodds,Wilson,Campbell an co. will take to streets again. What's chances of another NEVER NEVER NEVER speech - Ulster says no campaign be on the cards.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 12, 2019, 08:44:27 AM
Guys look I know it's great to gloat that the DUP have been fucked over and "border down the Irish sea" but this is a really shit deal for NI. While yes the DUP have been fucked over unfortunately we're all going to be pushed under that bus.
This is a shit deal that involves loads of more paperwork and red tape. It puts barriers on trade between East/West. In short it's terrible but it's terrible for everyone not just DUP voters.

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Hound on November 12, 2019, 09:00:00 AM
Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 08:44:27 AM
Guys look I know it's great to gloat that the DUP have been fucked over and "border down the Irish sea" but this is a really shit deal for NI. While yes the DUP have been fucked over unfortunately we're all going to be pushed under that bus.
This is a shit deal that involves loads of more paperwork and red tape. It puts barriers on trade between East/West. In short it's terrible but it's terrible for everyone not just DUP voters.
So a better deal would be a border and checks between north and south?? Because it has to be one or the other.

I think you're overstating the "terribleness" of this deal. Once the teething problems are sorted out, I think it'll be fine. Once everything is up and running goods moving from NI to GB and vice versa will be seamless with no/minimal red tape. For goods that are moving to or coming from the EU, there will certainly be additional red tape, but just the same as goods moving directly to/from NI to/from mainland EU.

I think people forget that all types of Brexit will lead to red tape for NI. Even if the border was in Ireland and there was none in the Irish sea, there would still be red tape for goods going from NI to GB, where the ultimate destination of the goods is Europe.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 12, 2019, 09:03:25 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-what-if-corbyn-offered-sinn-f%C3%A9in-a-border-poll-1.4079555

"The question is obvious and voters in Northern Ireland have a right to an answer before they go to the polls on December 12th. What will Sinn Féin do if the election results in a hung parliament? More specifically, what will it do if its votes could make Jeremy Corbyn prime minister and he makes the party an offer it surely can't refuse?
The offer is this: take your seats to vote me into office and support me on any confidence motions, and in return I will give you a Border poll. Does Sinn Féin really rule out such a deal? And if not, it surely needs to be honest with voters and prepare them in advance for the possibility that the policy of abstentionism is not as absolute as party dogma has always claimed it to be.


An important consideration here is that Sinn Féin has already in effect shifted its position on abstentionism. Last week the party announced it would not stand in South Belfast, East Belfast and North Down and urged its voters in those constituencies to support Remain candidates instead."
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 12, 2019, 09:10:21 AM
How have they shifted it??
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 12, 2019, 10:31:18 AM
Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 08:44:27 AM
Guys look I know it's great to gloat that the DUP have been fucked over and "border down the Irish sea" but this is a really shit deal for NI. While yes the DUP have been fucked over unfortunately we're all going to be pushed under that bus.
This is a shit deal that involves loads of more paperwork and red tape. It puts barriers on trade between East/West. In short it's terrible but it's terrible for everyone not just DUP voters.

The only "good deal" is the status quo, i.e. remain in the EU.

yes, were all going to suffer due to the right wing nut jobs in the Tory party and their mates in the DUVF (stole that from someone else).
A UI and return to the EU can't come quick enough.



Quote from: seafoid on November 11, 2019, 08:02:59 PM
Quote from: Minder on November 11, 2019, 05:14:12 PM
Surely to get "Brexit done" the Tories will need a majority, and to do that gain current Labour seats. Brexit party will surely cut into Tory vote in some Labour seats. I don't think it's as straightforward as some think
Me neither

Read somewhere that in the European elections that for every 3 votes the Brexit party got, two were from the Tories and one from Labour.

If that ratio persists in the forthcoming General election then Labour may hold more seats than they're expected to lose them.
European elections were almost like a protest vote and parties that did well aren't inclined to do as well in a GE.


Tories are going to lose out in Scotland so they need to make up that shortfall elsewhere and then some to have a majority.

It's looking like another hung parliament.  :o
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 12, 2019, 10:48:27 AM
Quote from: Hound on November 12, 2019, 09:00:00 AM
Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 08:44:27 AM
Guys look I know it's great to gloat that the DUP have been fucked over and "border down the Irish sea" but this is a really shit deal for NI. While yes the DUP have been fucked over unfortunately we're all going to be pushed under that bus.
This is a shit deal that involves loads of more paperwork and red tape. It puts barriers on trade between East/West. In short it's terrible but it's terrible for everyone not just DUP voters.
So a better deal would be a border and checks between north and south?? Because it has to be one or the other.

I think you're overstating the "terribleness" of this deal. Once the teething problems are sorted out, I think it'll be fine. Once everything is up and running goods moving from NI to GB and vice versa will be seamless with no/minimal red tape. For goods that are moving to or coming from the EU, there will certainly be additional red tape, but just the same as goods moving directly to/from NI to/from mainland EU.

I think people forget that all types of Brexit will lead to red tape for NI. Even if the border was in Ireland and there was none in the Irish sea, there would still be red tape for goods going from NI to GB, where the ultimate destination of the goods is Europe.

That red tape already exists. Cross-boirder VAT is already a nightmare for small businesses. It takes 6-8 weeks minimum now to get an ROI VAT number, so scared are the Revenue of scammers.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: armaghniac on November 12, 2019, 11:33:13 AM
Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 08:44:27 AM
Guys look I know it's great to gloat that the DUP have been fucked over and "border down the Irish sea" but this is a really shit deal for NI. While yes the DUP have been fucked over unfortunately we're all going to be pushed under that bus.
This is a shit deal that involves loads of more paperwork and red tape. It puts barriers on trade between East/West. In short it's terrible but it's terrible for everyone not just DUP voters.

Anything resulting from Brexit was going to be worse, if the English are acting the maggot then it was always going to be substantially worse. The best you can say about the deal is that there are worse outcomes.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: magpie seanie on November 12, 2019, 11:47:52 AM
The Tories entire electoral strategy is based on the assumption that most or enough people are thick. So thick they'll swallow the contionuos and unrelenting smears from 95% of the British media and distill it down to ridiculous assertions like "nationalise everything" as we saw earlier in this thread. Their strategy is underpinned by a horribly unequal education system so it's a solid bet unfortunately.

However, the way to beat this is not taking it on. It's to have a consistent and solid ground game and engage people on a more close and personal basis. Labour is doing this and will fight an incredible fight in this regard. Despite the horrific things he has been smeared with, the general consensus of those who've met him is that Corbyn is an absolute gentleman, full of empathy and respect and dignity. His consistency in his political viewpoints is undeniable. If wanting good healthcare, good education and equality are communism well then I guess I'm a communist too! The reality is that these fanciful labels like "communist", "Stalinist" and "socialist" are trotted out by the rich and powerful because they're afraid. Not just afraid of having to pay more taxes. They're afraid that everyone will get a chance in life similar to what their families and friends have had for generations.

It just amazes me that Corbyn is seen as a "threat". There is no bigger threat to Britain & Ireland, Europe than the Tories. With the Tories you're guaranteed a no-deal or bad deal Brexit and the economic carnage that will ensue. Who do you think they'll prioritise when the shit hits the fan? Labour offers the prospect of remain or a less damaging Brexit. And a fair chance for everyone. Properly funded public services.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: tbrick18 on November 12, 2019, 12:22:46 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 12, 2019, 11:47:52 AM
The Tories entire electoral strategy is based on the assumption that most or enough people are thick. So thick they'll swallow the contionuos and unrelenting smears from 95% of the British media and distill it down to ridiculous assertions like "nationalise everything" as we saw earlier in this thread. Their strategy is underpinned by a horribly unequal education system so it's a solid bet unfortunately.

However, the way to beat this is not taking it on. It's to have a consistent and solid ground game and engage people on a more close and personal basis. Labour is doing this and will fight an incredible fight in this regard. Despite the horrific things he has been smeared with, the general consensus of those who've met him is that Corbyn is an absolute gentleman, full of empathy and respect and dignity. His consistency in his political viewpoints is undeniable. If wanting good healthcare, good education and equality are communism well then I guess I'm a communist too! The reality is that these fanciful labels like "communist", "Stalinist" and "socialist" are trotted out by the rich and powerful because they're afraid. Not just afraid of having to pay more taxes. They're afraid that everyone will get a chance in life similar to what their families and friends have had for generations.

It just amazes me that Corbyn is seen as a "threat". There is no bigger threat to Britain & Ireland, Europe than the Tories. With the Tories you're guaranteed a no-deal or bad deal Brexit and the economic carnage that will ensue. Who do you think they'll prioritise when the shit hits the fan? Labour offers the prospect of remain or a less damaging Brexit. And a fair chance for everyone. Properly funded public services.

+1
Very well put, I couldn't agree more
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: maddog on November 12, 2019, 12:28:50 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 12, 2019, 11:47:52 AM
The Tories entire electoral strategy is based on the assumption that most or enough people are thick. So thick they'll swallow the contionuos and unrelenting smears from 95% of the British media and distill it down to ridiculous assertions like "nationalise everything" as we saw earlier in this thread. Their strategy is underpinned by a horribly unequal education system so it's a solid bet unfortunately.

However, the way to beat this is not taking it on. It's to have a consistent and solid ground game and engage people on a more close and personal basis. Labour is doing this and will fight an incredible fight in this regard. Despite the horrific things he has been smeared with, the general consensus of those who've met him is that Corbyn is an absolute gentleman, full of empathy and respect and dignity. His consistency in his political viewpoints is undeniable. If wanting good healthcare, good education and equality are communism well then I guess I'm a communist too! The reality is that these fanciful labels like "communist", "Stalinist" and "socialist" are trotted out by the rich and powerful because they're afraid. Not just afraid of having to pay more taxes. They're afraid that everyone will get a chance in life similar to what their families and friends have had for generations.

It just amazes me that Corbyn is seen as a "threat". There is no bigger threat to Britain & Ireland, Europe than the Tories. With the Tories you're guaranteed a no-deal or bad deal Brexit and the economic carnage that will ensue. Who do you think they'll prioritise when the shit hits the fan? Labour offers the prospect of remain or a less damaging Brexit. And a fair chance for everyone. Properly funded public services.

That's bang on Seanie.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 12, 2019, 12:30:20 PM
Ok I get that this might be a slightly better deal than N/S checks or a border in Ireland. My point is more to do with people thinking it's funny that the DUP have been ditched. As if the consequences are completely localised to the DUP and their voters. It's such a naive view. This deal (which is awful) will have an economic impact on NI for years. So it must be opposed and in my view, we need to elect MPs who will go to Westminster and vote against it.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: tyrone08 on November 12, 2019, 12:50:44 PM
Spot on but you underestimate how thick the normal brit is. All you see on the news is smearing of labour and JC. It's ironic that given the age of smart phones we now have the ability to check or disprove any claim within a few minutes on Google. Unfortunately it seems the vast majority can't be bothered to do so.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Maroon Manc on November 12, 2019, 12:52:22 PM
Corbyn doesn't help himself with his latest tweet in support of McDonalds staff wanting £15 an hour. Minimum wage is £8.21 an hour for someone aged 25 and over.



Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Minder on November 12, 2019, 12:57:59 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on November 12, 2019, 12:52:22 PM
Corbyn doesn't help himself with his latest tweet in support of McDonalds staff wanting £15 an hour. Minimum wage is £8.21 an hour for someone aged 25 and over.

For the many, not the Jews
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: weareros on November 12, 2019, 01:04:13 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 12:30:20 PM
Ok I get that this might be a slightly better deal than N/S checks or a border in Ireland. My point is more to do with people thinking it's funny that the DUP have been ditched. As if the consequences are completely localised to the DUP and their voters. It's such a naive view. This deal (which is awful) will have an economic impact on NI for years. So it must be opposed and in my view, we need to elect MPs who will go to Westminster and vote against it.

The danger there is that many who would oppose it - like the DUP - would prefer a Hard Brexit; indeed they have voted for a Hard Brexit. That is a thousand times worse than the Boris deal. At this stage, the Boris deal is the lesser of two economic evils.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: armaghniac on November 12, 2019, 01:19:30 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 12, 2019, 11:47:52 AM
The Tories entire electoral strategy is based on the assumption that most or enough people are thick. So thick they'll swallow the contionuos and unrelenting smears from 95% of the British media and distill it down to ridiculous assertions like "nationalise everything" as we saw earlier in this thread. Their strategy is underpinned by a horribly unequal education system so it's a solid bet unfortunately.

However, the way to beat this is not taking it on. It's to have a consistent and solid ground game and engage people on a more close and personal basis. Labour is doing this and will fight an incredible fight in this regard. Despite the horrific things he has been smeared with, the general consensus of those who've met him is that Corbyn is an absolute gentleman, full of empathy and respect and dignity. His consistency in his political viewpoints is undeniable. If wanting good healthcare, good education and equality are communism well then I guess I'm a communist too! The reality is that these fanciful labels like "communist", "Stalinist" and "socialist" are trotted out by the rich and powerful because they're afraid. Not just afraid of having to pay more taxes. They're afraid that everyone will get a chance in life similar to what their families and friends have had for generations.

It just amazes me that Corbyn is seen as a "threat". There is no bigger threat to Britain & Ireland, Europe than the Tories. With the Tories you're guaranteed a no-deal or bad deal Brexit and the economic carnage that will ensue. Who do you think they'll prioritise when the shit hits the fan? Labour offers the prospect of remain or a less damaging Brexit. And a fair chance for everyone. Properly funded public services.

Corbyn might be admired for consistency in his political principles. However, the problem is that he is perceived to be more interested in principle than actual achievements. Actual achievement sometimes requires pragmatism, and the perception is that Corbyn and his allies will not show such pragmatism. In creating this perception they have done Britain a huge disservice, as they have not really opposed the Tories effectively, allowing them carry on with damaging policies.

Quote from: tyrone08 on November 12, 2019, 12:50:44 PM
Spot on but you underestimate how thick the normal brit is. All you see on the news is smearing of labour and JC. It's ironic that given the age of smart phones we now have the ability to check or disprove any claim within a few minutes on Google. Unfortunately it seems the vast majority can't be bothered to do so.

Exactly. All sorts of lies circulate, for instance the idea that Ireland sends most of its exports to Britain, which could be checked in 10 seconds on Google. But people can't be bothered with the truth
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 12, 2019, 01:20:03 PM
Quote from: tyrone08 on November 12, 2019, 12:50:44 PM
Spot on but you underestimate how thick the normal brit is. All you see on the news is smearing of labour and JC. It's ironic that given the age of smart phones we now have the ability to check or disprove any claim within a few minutes on Google. Unfortunately it seems the vast majority can't be bothered to do so.

The Irish are no brighter, except we've only had a socialist education system since the 90s. They've had one since the 60s.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on November 12, 2019, 01:20:07 PM
What is wrong with Alliance party at the minute. They seemed to have lost the plot recently.
They recently had the dodgy leaflet about how they were 1% behind DUP in SA and now for their latest bullshit

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10159216665739741&id=10642639740&anchor_composer=false

They have taken the rather dubious August lucid talk poll which seems to have gone to their head and they now have magically allocated the SF votes. I noticed they havent even the wit to allocate the Green vote who also have steeped aside
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 12, 2019, 01:22:00 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on November 12, 2019, 01:19:30 PM
Exactly. All sorts of lies circulate, for instance the idea that Ireland sends most of its exports to Britain, which could be checked in 10 seconds on Google. But people can't be bothered with the truth

Most of our 'real economy' ie non-tech exports are to Britain. You'll only see a handful of Irish products on the average French or German supermarket shelf.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 12, 2019, 01:31:30 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 12, 2019, 10:31:18 AM
Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 08:44:27 AM
Guys look I know it's great to gloat that the DUP have been fucked over and "border down the Irish sea" but this is a really shit deal for NI. While yes the DUP have been fucked over unfortunately we're all going to be pushed under that bus.
This is a shit deal that involves loads of more paperwork and red tape. It puts barriers on trade between East/West. In short it's terrible but it's terrible for everyone not just DUP voters.

The only "good deal" is the status quo, i.e. remain in the EU.

yes, were all going to suffer due to the right wing nut jobs in the Tory party and their mates in the DUVF (stole that from someone else).
A UI and return to the EU can't come quick enough.



Quote from: seafoid on November 11, 2019, 08:02:59 PM
Quote from: Minder on November 11, 2019, 05:14:12 PM
Surely to get "Brexit done" the Tories will need a majority, and to do that gain current Labour seats. Brexit party will surely cut into Tory vote in some Labour seats. I don't think it's as straightforward as some think
Me neither

Read somewhere that in the European elections that for every 3 votes the Brexit party got, two were from the Tories and one from Labour.

If that ratio persists in the forthcoming General election then Labour may hold more seats than they're expected to lose them.
European elections were almost like a protest vote and parties that did well aren't inclined to do as well in a GE.


Tories are going to lose out in Scotland so they need to make up that shortfall elsewhere and then some to have a majority.

It's looking like another hung parliament.  :o

Depends on where the Leave voters live. There is some analysis that says Leave wins a GE by a landslide due to the distribution of votes.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 12, 2019, 01:33:47 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 12, 2019, 11:47:52 AM
The Tories entire electoral strategy is based on the assumption that most or enough people are thick. So thick they'll swallow the contionuos and unrelenting smears from 95% of the British media and distill it down to ridiculous assertions like "nationalise everything" as we saw earlier in this thread. Their strategy is underpinned by a horribly unequal education system so it's a solid bet unfortunately.

However, the way to beat this is not taking it on. It's to have a consistent and solid ground game and engage people on a more close and personal basis. Labour is doing this and will fight an incredible fight in this regard. Despite the horrific things he has been smeared with, the general consensus of those who've met him is that Corbyn is an absolute gentleman, full of empathy and respect and dignity. His consistency in his political viewpoints is undeniable. If wanting good healthcare, good education and equality are communism well then I guess I'm a communist too! The reality is that these fanciful labels like "communist", "Stalinist" and "socialist" are trotted out by the rich and powerful because they're afraid. Not just afraid of having to pay more taxes. They're afraid that everyone will get a chance in life similar to what their families and friends have had for generations.

It just amazes me that Corbyn is seen as a "threat". There is no bigger threat to Britain & Ireland, Europe than the Tories. With the Tories you're guaranteed a no-deal or bad deal Brexit and the economic carnage that will ensue. Who do you think they'll prioritise when the shit hits the fan? Labour offers the prospect of remain or a less damaging Brexit. And a fair chance for everyone. Properly funded public services.

I'm there
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 12, 2019, 01:38:57 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 12, 2019, 11:47:52 AM
The Tories entire electoral strategy is based on the assumption that most or enough people are thick. So thick they'll swallow the contionuos and unrelenting smears from 95% of the British media and distill it down to ridiculous assertions like "nationalise everything" as we saw earlier in this thread. Their strategy is underpinned by a horribly unequal education system so it's a solid bet unfortunately.

However, the way to beat this is not taking it on. It's to have a consistent and solid ground game and engage people on a more close and personal basis. Labour is doing this and will fight an incredible fight in this regard. Despite the horrific things he has been smeared with, the general consensus of those who've met him is that Corbyn is an absolute gentleman, full of empathy and respect and dignity. His consistency in his political viewpoints is undeniable. If wanting good healthcare, good education and equality are communism well then I guess I'm a communist too! The reality is that these fanciful labels like "communist", "Stalinist" and "socialist" are trotted out by the rich and powerful because they're afraid. Not just afraid of having to pay more taxes. They're afraid that everyone will get a chance in life similar to what their families and friends have had for generations.

It just amazes me that Corbyn is seen as a "threat". There is no bigger threat to Britain & Ireland, Europe than the Tories. With the Tories you're guaranteed a no-deal or bad deal Brexit and the economic carnage that will ensue. Who do you think they'll prioritise when the shit hits the fan? Labour offers the prospect of remain or a less damaging Brexit. And a fair chance for everyone. Properly funded public services.

Very well put.

Corbyn is genuine and somebody I could relate to. I wouldn't necessarily agree with all of his policies but his intentions are real in looking for a fairer society where the wealthy contribute more in tax for a better education system and health care for all. Those ERG upper class privately educated Tories are totally removed from the real world, theirs is a life of privilege. A bunch of me feiners. The majority of the print & broadcast media are Tory leaning and this can have an influence on voters perceptions particularly for those who don't delve into the details. There is a real fear of a Corbyn led government within large sections of UK media and political circles and I expect that the continuous smears will heighten as the election gets closer.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 12, 2019, 01:44:52 PM
Quote from: Minder on November 12, 2019, 12:57:59 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on November 12, 2019, 12:52:22 PM
Corbyn doesn't help himself with his latest tweet in support of McDonalds staff wanting £15 an hour. Minimum wage is £8.21 an hour for someone aged 25 and over.

For the many, not the Jews
Nobody mentioned antisemitism in Labour until 2015 when Corbyn became leader. Israel runs apartheid in Gaza and the West Bank and young people have turned against it because of the human rights abuses. This was a huge shock to the Zionist elite in the UK who thought that UK support for whatever Israel did was guaranteed. All of the major Zionists orgs in the UK went after Corbyn.
Sanders in the US has equated antisemitism to the oppression of the Palestinians. Things are changing and Zionists don't like it.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Denn Forever on November 12, 2019, 01:55:25 PM
Wasn't it something he wouldn't sign?  A particular phrase?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 12, 2019, 01:56:45 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 12, 2019, 01:44:52 PM
Quote from: Minder on November 12, 2019, 12:57:59 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on November 12, 2019, 12:52:22 PM
Corbyn doesn't help himself with his latest tweet in support of McDonalds staff wanting £15 an hour. Minimum wage is £8.21 an hour for someone aged 25 and over.

For the many, not the Jews
Nobody mentioned antisemitism in Labour until 2015 when Corbyn became leader. Israel runs apartheid in Gaza and the West Bank and young people have turned against it because of the human rights abuses. This was a huge shock to the Zionist elite in the UK who thought that UK support for whatever Israel did was guaranteed. All of the major Zionists orgs in the UK went after Corbyn.
Sanders in the US has equated antisemitism to the oppression of the Palestinians. Things are changing and Zionists don't like it.

There is no apartheid in Gaza or the West Bank. Israel doesn't even run Gaza, with its luxury hotels (check Booking.com), shopping, apartments and world class beach. Your "zionist elite" and "zionists don't like it" barbs fall within the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Crete Boom on November 12, 2019, 02:42:03 PM
Quote from: five points on November 12, 2019, 01:20:03 PM
Quote from: tyrone08 on November 12, 2019, 12:50:44 PM
Spot on but you underestimate how thick the normal brit is. All you see on the news is smearing of labour and JC. It's ironic that given the age of smart phones we now have the ability to check or disprove any claim within a few minutes on Google. Unfortunately it seems the vast majority can't be bothered to do so.

The Irish are no brighter, except we've only had a socialist education system since the 90s. They've had one since the 60s.

What the f**k are you on about? I went to school in the 90's and it was a bog standard shitbox cold all boys catholic secondary school. It was only socialist in that teachers and students were both subject to the same freezing cold dump buildings with f**k all resources!!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 12, 2019, 02:50:30 PM
Quote from: five points on November 12, 2019, 01:56:45 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 12, 2019, 01:44:52 PM
Quote from: Minder on November 12, 2019, 12:57:59 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on November 12, 2019, 12:52:22 PM
Corbyn doesn't help himself with his latest tweet in support of McDonalds staff wanting £15 an hour. Minimum wage is £8.21 an hour for someone aged 25 and over.

For the many, not the Jews
Nobody mentioned antisemitism in Labour until 2015 when Corbyn became leader. Israel runs apartheid in Gaza and the West Bank and young people have turned against it because of the human rights abuses. This was a huge shock to the Zionist elite in the UK who thought that UK support for whatever Israel did was guaranteed. All of the major Zionists orgs in the UK went after Corbyn.
Sanders in the US has equated antisemitism to the oppression of the Palestinians. Things are changing and Zionists don't like it.

There is no apartheid in Gaza or the West Bank. Israel doesn't even run Gaza, with its luxury hotels (check Booking.com), shopping, apartments and world class beach. Your "zionist elite" and "zionists don't like it" barbs fall within the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism.

There sure is apartheid. Jews in Israel/Palestine earn 10-15 times what Palestinians do.
That's apartheid.
Israel runs the population register in Gaza and remains the occupier. 
The IHRA definition counts anti Zionism as hatred of Jews.
It's bollocks. 
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 12, 2019, 02:50:47 PM
Quote from: five points on November 12, 2019, 01:56:45 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 12, 2019, 01:44:52 PM
Quote from: Minder on November 12, 2019, 12:57:59 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on November 12, 2019, 12:52:22 PM
Corbyn doesn't help himself with his latest tweet in support of McDonalds staff wanting £15 an hour. Minimum wage is £8.21 an hour for someone aged 25 and over.

For the many, not the Jews
Nobody mentioned antisemitism in Labour until 2015 when Corbyn became leader. Israel runs apartheid in Gaza and the West Bank and young people have turned against it because of the human rights abuses. This was a huge shock to the Zionist elite in the UK who thought that UK support for whatever Israel did was guaranteed. All of the major Zionists orgs in the UK went after Corbyn.
Sanders in the US has equated antisemitism to the oppression of the Palestinians. Things are changing and Zionists don't like it.

There is no apartheid in Gaza or the West Bank. Israel doesn't even run Gaza, with its luxury hotels (check Booking.com), shopping, apartments and world class beach. Your "zionist elite" and "zionists don't like it" barbs fall within the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism.

I checked booking.com and there are no luxury hotels on the Gaza strip.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 12, 2019, 03:18:17 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on November 12, 2019, 12:52:22 PM
Minimum wage is £8.21 an hour for someone aged 25 and over.

Time for real change
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 12, 2019, 03:43:17 PM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/11/12/brexit-party-haemorrhaging-support-nigel-farage-hand/

Mr Farage did not deny rumours of a rapprochement brokered by US President Donald Trump, who is close to both the Brexit Party leader and Boris Johnson. 
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 12, 2019, 03:47:40 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 02:50:47 PM

I checked booking.com and there are no luxury hotels on the Gaza strip.

Quite correct. They're no longer listed there, but google still has a few

https://www.google.com/travel/hotels/Gaza%20Strip/entity/CgsIq8Gc4smQ_ZngARAB?g2lb=2502405%2C2502548%2C4208993%2C4254308%2C4258168%2C4260007%2C4270442%2C4274032%2C4285990%2C4288513%2C4289525%2C4291318%2C4296668%2C4301054%2C4302823%2C4305595%2C4308216%2C4313006%2C4315873%2C4317816%2C4322168%2C4329287%2C4270859%2C4284970%2C4291517%2C4292955%2C4316256&hl=en&gl=ie&un=1&q=gaza%20hotel&rp=EKvBnOLJkP2Z4AEQg9rKj76t092ZATgBQABIAg&ictx=1&ved=2ahUKEwiJ0c-sguXlAhV-TxUIHRX1B3QQvS4wAHoECAoQIA&hrf=KhYKBwjjDxAMGAcSBwjjDxAMGAgYASgAkgECIAE&tcfs=EhoaGAoKMjAxOS0xMi0wNxIKMjAxOS0xMi0wOFIA
https://www.google.com/travel/hotels/Gaza%20Strip/entity/CgsIg9rKj76t092ZARAB?g2lb=2502405%2C2502548%2C4208993%2C4254308%2C4258168%2C4260007%2C4270442%2C4274032%2C4285990%2C4288513%2C4289525%2C4291318%2C4296668%2C4301054%2C4302823%2C4305595%2C4308216%2C4313006%2C4315873%2C4317816%2C4322168%2C4329287%2C4270859%2C4284970%2C4291517%2C4292955%2C4316256&hl=en&gl=ie&un=1&q=gaza%20hotel&rp=EKvBnOLJkP2Z4AEQg9rKj76t092ZATgBQABIAg&ictx=1&ved=2ahUKEwiJ0c-sguXlAhV-TxUIHRX1B3QQvS4wAXoECAoQKA&hrf=KhYKBwjjDxAMGAcSBwjjDxAMGAgYASgAkgECIAE&tcfs=EhoaGAoKMjAxOS0xMi0wNxIKMjAxOS0xMi0wOFIA
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 12, 2019, 03:48:34 PM
Quote from: Crete Boom on November 12, 2019, 02:42:03 PM


What the f**k are you on about? I went to school in the 90's and it was a bog standard shitbox cold all boys catholic secondary school. It was only socialist in that teachers and students were both subject to the same freezing cold dump buildings with f**k all resources!!

You were lucky to get through it before the Labour crowd started messing with the curriculum.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 12, 2019, 03:50:48 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 12, 2019, 02:50:30 PM
There sure is apartheid. Jews in Israel/Palestine earn 10-15 times what Palestinians do.
That's apartheid.
Israel runs the population register in Gaza and remains the occupier. 
The IHRA definition counts anti Zionism as hatred of Jews.
It's bollocks.

No. There are rich and poor everywhere but apartheid is not everywhere.
If "Israel runs the population register in Gaza" why do Hamas refuse to hold elections?
Undue singling out of "zionism" is the essence of modern anti-semitism.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 12, 2019, 03:53:37 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 12, 2019, 03:18:17 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on November 12, 2019, 12:52:22 PM
Minimum wage is £8.21 an hour for someone aged 25 and over.

Time for real change

I'm up for helping people but £15ph for this sort of work is not realistic. I run my own business and if the minimum wage was £15ph I'd be out of business pretty quick. Don't forget you have NI contributions and employers tax to pay on top of that.
It's these sort of crazy economics from Labour that scare people who create businesses and jobs.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: armaghniac on November 12, 2019, 03:59:09 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 12, 2019, 03:18:17 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on November 12, 2019, 12:52:22 PM
Minimum wage is £8.21 an hour for someone aged 25 and over.

Time for real change

But you probably get free grub in McDonalds also!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 12, 2019, 04:01:20 PM
Quote from: five points on November 12, 2019, 03:47:40 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 02:50:47 PM

I checked booking.com and there are no luxury hotels on the Gaza strip.

Quite correct. They're no longer listed there, but google still has a few

https://www.google.com/travel/hotels/Gaza%20Strip/entity/CgsIq8Gc4smQ_ZngARAB?g2lb=2502405%2C2502548%2C4208993%2C4254308%2C4258168%2C4260007%2C4270442%2C4274032%2C4285990%2C4288513%2C4289525%2C4291318%2C4296668%2C4301054%2C4302823%2C4305595%2C4308216%2C4313006%2C4315873%2C4317816%2C4322168%2C4329287%2C4270859%2C4284970%2C4291517%2C4292955%2C4316256&hl=en&gl=ie&un=1&q=gaza%20hotel&rp=EKvBnOLJkP2Z4AEQg9rKj76t092ZATgBQABIAg&ictx=1&ved=2ahUKEwiJ0c-sguXlAhV-TxUIHRX1B3QQvS4wAHoECAoQIA&hrf=KhYKBwjjDxAMGAcSBwjjDxAMGAgYASgAkgECIAE&tcfs=EhoaGAoKMjAxOS0xMi0wNxIKMjAxOS0xMi0wOFIA
https://www.google.com/travel/hotels/Gaza%20Strip/entity/CgsIg9rKj76t092ZARAB?g2lb=2502405%2C2502548%2C4208993%2C4254308%2C4258168%2C4260007%2C4270442%2C4274032%2C4285990%2C4288513%2C4289525%2C4291318%2C4296668%2C4301054%2C4302823%2C4305595%2C4308216%2C4313006%2C4315873%2C4317816%2C4322168%2C4329287%2C4270859%2C4284970%2C4291517%2C4292955%2C4316256&hl=en&gl=ie&un=1&q=gaza%20hotel&rp=EKvBnOLJkP2Z4AEQg9rKj76t092ZATgBQABIAg&ictx=1&ved=2ahUKEwiJ0c-sguXlAhV-TxUIHRX1B3QQvS4wAXoECAoQKA&hrf=KhYKBwjjDxAMGAcSBwjjDxAMGAgYASgAkgECIAE&tcfs=EhoaGAoKMjAxOS0xMi0wNxIKMjAxOS0xMi0wOFIA

Ok you don't seem to understand the meaning of the word "luxury".
It's got a 3.4 review and it looks like a an absolute kip. It's last review was 6 months ago and when I tried to book a room it said contract the property which makes me think that this "luxury hotel" may now be a pile of rubble.

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 12, 2019, 04:29:11 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 04:01:20 PM
Quote from: five points on November 12, 2019, 03:47:40 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 02:50:47 PM

I checked booking.com and there are no luxury hotels on the Gaza strip.

Quite correct. They're no longer listed there, but google still has a few

https://www.google.com/travel/hotels/Gaza%20Strip/entity/CgsIq8Gc4smQ_ZngARAB?g2lb=2502405%2C2502548%2C4208993%2C4254308%2C4258168%2C4260007%2C4270442%2C4274032%2C4285990%2C4288513%2C4289525%2C4291318%2C4296668%2C4301054%2C4302823%2C4305595%2C4308216%2C4313006%2C4315873%2C4317816%2C4322168%2C4329287%2C4270859%2C4284970%2C4291517%2C4292955%2C4316256&hl=en&gl=ie&un=1&q=gaza%20hotel&rp=EKvBnOLJkP2Z4AEQg9rKj76t092ZATgBQABIAg&ictx=1&ved=2ahUKEwiJ0c-sguXlAhV-TxUIHRX1B3QQvS4wAHoECAoQIA&hrf=KhYKBwjjDxAMGAcSBwjjDxAMGAgYASgAkgECIAE&tcfs=EhoaGAoKMjAxOS0xMi0wNxIKMjAxOS0xMi0wOFIA
https://www.google.com/travel/hotels/Gaza%20Strip/entity/CgsIg9rKj76t092ZARAB?g2lb=2502405%2C2502548%2C4208993%2C4254308%2C4258168%2C4260007%2C4270442%2C4274032%2C4285990%2C4288513%2C4289525%2C4291318%2C4296668%2C4301054%2C4302823%2C4305595%2C4308216%2C4313006%2C4315873%2C4317816%2C4322168%2C4329287%2C4270859%2C4284970%2C4291517%2C4292955%2C4316256&hl=en&gl=ie&un=1&q=gaza%20hotel&rp=EKvBnOLJkP2Z4AEQg9rKj76t092ZATgBQABIAg&ictx=1&ved=2ahUKEwiJ0c-sguXlAhV-TxUIHRX1B3QQvS4wAXoECAoQKA&hrf=KhYKBwjjDxAMGAcSBwjjDxAMGAgYASgAkgECIAE&tcfs=EhoaGAoKMjAxOS0xMi0wNxIKMjAxOS0xMi0wOFIA

Ok you don't seem to understand the meaning of the word "luxury".
It's got a 3.4 review and it looks like a an absolute kip. It's last review was 6 months ago and when I tried to book a room it said contract the property which makes me think that this "luxury hotel" may now be a pile of rubble.

There's more than 1 place linked.

Pretty luxurious for what's supposed to be an 'open air prison'  ::)
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 12, 2019, 05:00:03 PM
Quote from: five points on November 12, 2019, 03:50:48 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 12, 2019, 02:50:30 PM
There sure is apartheid. Jews in Israel/Palestine earn 10-15 times what Palestinians do.
That's apartheid.
Israel runs the population register in Gaza and remains the occupier. 
The IHRA definition counts anti Zionism as hatred of Jews.
It's bollocks.

No. There are rich and poor everywhere but apartheid is not everywhere.
If "Israel runs the population register in Gaza" why do Hamas refuse to hold elections?
Undue singling out of "zionism" is the essence of modern anti-semitism.

Zionism is racist and has SFA to do with Judaism, which emphasises justice.

Jews are systematically better off than Palestinians living in the same political space.

Israel                 GDP per head USD 41,644
West Bank          GDP per head USD 1924
Gaza                  GDP per head USD 876

Israel runs 2 legal systems and has separate roads for Jews and non Jews.
It's pure apartheid.

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: omaghjoe on November 12, 2019, 05:23:28 PM
A key feature of apartheid was that blacks would have a homeland, which were run by the inhabitants and not by the South Afrian regime. Tho I think they had massive subsidies and controlled migration to and from. There were a dozen or so of these homelands operating inside SA during apartheid.

The parallels with the modern  Holy Land are extraordinary  and interestingly as regards this current discussion there was many elite resorts such as sun city that were run inside these homelands.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 12, 2019, 05:49:40 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 12, 2019, 05:00:03 PM

Israel runs 2 legal systems and has separate roads for Jews and non Jews.
It's pure apartheid.

At least one dirty lie there and probably two.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/yourview/dispelling-the-myth-of-jews-only-roads-in-the-west-bank-856339.html
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on November 12, 2019, 06:31:26 PM
Quote from: five points on November 12, 2019, 05:49:40 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 12, 2019, 05:00:03 PM

Israel runs 2 legal systems and has separate roads for Jews and non Jews.
It's pure apartheid.

At least one dirty lie there and probably two.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/yourview/dispelling-the-myth-of-jews-only-roads-in-the-west-bank-856339.html

Seafoid is basically an online Jeremy Corbyn so hardly surprising
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 12, 2019, 06:41:37 PM
Quote from: five points on November 12, 2019, 05:49:40 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 12, 2019, 05:00:03 PM

Israel runs 2 legal systems and has separate roads for Jews and non Jews.
It's pure apartheid.

At least one dirty lie there and probably two.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/yourview/dispelling-the-myth-of-jews-only-roads-in-the-west-bank-856339.html
Have you ever been to the West Bank?

Jews and Palestinians have separate number plate systems. Jews are subject to Israeli civil law. Palestinians are subject to Israeli military law. Jews have enforceable property rights. Palestinians don't.

The politics are changing now. Sanders opposes the occupation. So do most young people.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 12, 2019, 06:45:04 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 12, 2019, 06:41:37 PM
Quote from: five points on November 12, 2019, 05:49:40 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 12, 2019, 05:00:03 PM

Israel runs 2 legal systems and has separate roads for Jews and non Jews.
It's pure apartheid.

At least one dirty lie there and probably two.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/yourview/dispelling-the-myth-of-jews-only-roads-in-the-west-bank-856339.html
Have you ever been to the West Bank?

Jews and Palestinians have separate number plate systems. Jews are subject to Israeli civil law. Palestinians are subject to Israeli military law. Jews have enforceable property rights. Palestinians don't.

The politics are changing now. Sanders opposes the occupation. So do most young people.

You mentioned separate roads. I debunked it in seconds. You could have reseached it before you wrote it but instead you lied. You lose.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 12, 2019, 06:48:44 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 03:53:37 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 12, 2019, 03:18:17 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on November 12, 2019, 12:52:22 PM
Minimum wage is £8.21 an hour for someone aged 25 and over.

Time for real change

I'm up for helping people but £15ph for this sort of work is not realistic. I run my own business and if the minimum wage was £15ph I'd be out of business pretty quick. Don't forget you have NI contributions and employers tax to pay on top of that.
It's these sort of crazy economics from Labour that scare people who create businesses and jobs.

Talk me through this. On £8.21 in Corbyn's constituency how long would your working week need to be to achieve non poverty levels of accommodation, food, clothing and heat. At this stage I'm not even getting into things like a pint or a tv or a movie?

At £15.00 how would it improve?? What is the propensity to spend by people earning £15.00 per hour.

Particularly interested in the bits of this you describe as crazy?

They might not get £15 it's an opening salvo but £8.21 is obscene
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 12, 2019, 06:55:42 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 12, 2019, 06:48:44 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 03:53:37 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 12, 2019, 03:18:17 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on November 12, 2019, 12:52:22 PM
Minimum wage is £8.21 an hour for someone aged 25 and over.

Time for real change

I'm up for helping people but £15ph for this sort of work is not realistic. I run my own business and if the minimum wage was £15ph I'd be out of business pretty quick. Don't forget you have NI contributions and employers tax to pay on top of that.
It's these sort of crazy economics from Labour that scare people who create businesses and jobs.

Talk me through this. On £8.21 in Corbyn's constituency how long would your working week need to be to achieve non poverty levels of accommodation, food, clothing and heat. At this stage I'm not even getting into things like a pint or a tv or a movie?

At £15.00 how would it improve?? What is the propensity to spend by people earning £15.00 per hour.

Particularly interested in the bits of this you describe as crazy?

They might not get £15 it's an opening salvo but £8.21 is obscene

I'd guess that most of the people who work at entry-level grades in your average McDonalds are students or other young people who live at home and don't have to put roofs over their heads.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 12, 2019, 07:25:27 PM
Quote from: five points on November 12, 2019, 06:45:04 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 12, 2019, 06:41:37 PM
Quote from: five points on November 12, 2019, 05:49:40 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 12, 2019, 05:00:03 PM

Israel runs 2 legal systems and has separate roads for Jews and non Jews.
It's pure apartheid.

At least one dirty lie there and probably two.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/yourview/dispelling-the-myth-of-jews-only-roads-in-the-west-bank-856339.html
Have you ever been to the West Bank?

Jews and Palestinians have separate number plate systems. Jews are subject to Israeli civil law. Palestinians are subject to Israeli military law. Jews have enforceable property rights. Palestinians don't.

The politics are changing now. Sanders opposes the occupation. So do most young people.

You mentioned separate roads. I debunked it in seconds. You could have reseached it before you wrote it but instead you lied. You lose.
Adam Levick is a Zionist spin merchant. Israelis have no answer to the charge of apartheid so they deny it.

Israel runs checkpoints on Palestinian roads. There are none in the Jewish road system. The article is bollocks.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 12, 2019, 07:26:44 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 12, 2019, 07:25:27 PM

Adam Levick is a Zionist spin merchant. Israelis have no answer to the charge of apartheid so they deny it.

Israel runs checkpoints on Palestinian roads. There are none in the Jewish road system. The article is bollocks.

No checkpoints? I'm going!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 12, 2019, 08:28:45 PM
Quote from: five points on November 12, 2019, 06:55:42 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 12, 2019, 06:48:44 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 03:53:37 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 12, 2019, 03:18:17 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on November 12, 2019, 12:52:22 PM
Minimum wage is £8.21 an hour for someone aged 25 and over.

Time for real change

I'm up for helping people but £15ph for this sort of work is not realistic. I run my own business and if the minimum wage was £15ph I'd be out of business pretty quick. Don't forget you have NI contributions and employers tax to pay on top of that.
It's these sort of crazy economics from Labour that scare people who create businesses and jobs.

Talk me through this. On £8.21 in Corbyn's constituency how long would your working week need to be to achieve non poverty levels of accommodation, food, clothing and heat. At this stage I'm not even getting into things like a pint or a tv or a movie?

At £15.00 how would it improve?? What is the propensity to spend by people earning £15.00 per hour.

Particularly interested in the bits of this you describe as crazy?

They might not get £15 it's an opening salvo but £8.21 is obscene

I'd guess that most of the people who work at entry-level grades in your average McDonalds are students or other young people who live at home and don't have to put roofs over their heads.
So why do people with homes and families and responsibilities and families not work there?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 12, 2019, 08:45:50 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 12, 2019, 08:28:45 PM
So why do people with homes and families and responsibilities and families not work there?

Because it's shit?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 12, 2019, 08:47:05 PM
Quote from: five points on November 12, 2019, 08:45:50 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 12, 2019, 08:28:45 PM
So why do people with homes and families and responsibilities and families not work there?

Because it's shit?

In what way?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on November 12, 2019, 08:52:51 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 12, 2019, 08:28:45 PM

So why do people with homes and families and responsibilities and families not work there?

How do you know they don't?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 12, 2019, 08:56:23 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 12, 2019, 08:52:51 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 12, 2019, 08:28:45 PM

So why do people with homes and families and responsibilities and families not work there?

How do you know they don't?

I never said that they don't. I'm teasing out the point made by others. See the post by 5 points that you deleted in order to quote me
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 12, 2019, 09:29:53 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 12, 2019, 06:48:44 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 03:53:37 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 12, 2019, 03:18:17 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on November 12, 2019, 12:52:22 PM
Minimum wage is £8.21 an hour for someone aged 25 and over.

Time for real change

I'm up for helping people but £15ph for this sort of work is not realistic. I run my own business and if the minimum wage was £15ph I'd be out of business pretty quick. Don't forget you have NI contributions and employers tax to pay on top of that.
It's these sort of crazy economics from Labour that scare people who create businesses and jobs.

Talk me through this. On £8.21 in Corbyn's constituency how long would your working week need to be to achieve non poverty levels of accommodation, food, clothing and heat. At this stage I'm not even getting into things like a pint or a tv or a movie?

At £15.00 how would it improve?? What is the propensity to spend by people earning £15.00 per hour.

Particularly interested in the bits of this you describe as crazy?

They might not get £15 it's an opening salvo but £8.21 is obscene

You see , you see £15 per hour for minimum wage and think that solves all problems everywhere. But how much does a trades person then get an hour? What about other skilled people? It's all relative. It push wages up everywhere, which in turn pushes up costs. Who has to stump up? The consumer. Businesses don't absorb these costs. In real terms, probably no one is better off.
That's why this is crazy economics.

I get that it is difficult to make ends meet on £8.21 ph, but it's a multi faceted solution. Working families have always struggled to make ends meet going right back over this past 100 or 200 years. It's not a new problem and just simply paying people more isn't the answer.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 12, 2019, 10:54:50 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 09:29:53 PM

You see , you see £15 per hour for minimum wage and think that solves all problems everywhere

Why are you resorting to lies?
I didn't say this. You have invented it.
It cannot possibly help your argument. It's just a lie. Your lie

Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 09:29:53 PM
But how much does a trades person then get an hour? What about other skilled people? It's all relative.
Wages are relative. I think most people get that

Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 09:29:53 PM

It push wages up everywhere, which in turn pushes up costs.
The educational value of this site grows

Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 09:29:53 PM
Who has to stump up? The consumer. Businesses don't absorb these costs. In real terms, probably no one is better off.

Society already stumps up. Housing allowance?? In work benefits?? Food banks??

Is the market working well enough for you for us to leave it well alone??

Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 09:29:53 PM
That's why this is crazy economics.

I get that it is difficult to make ends meet on £8.21 ph, but it's a multi faceted solution. Working families have always struggled to make ends meet going right back over this past 100 or 200 years. It's not a new problem and just simply paying people more isn't the answer.

I haven't heard any of your multi-faceted solution but I'm willing to listen.

The fact that poor people are poor is no reason to leave them poor.

Again don't pretend that anybody claimed that paying people more was a magic bullet or a single solution . The attack was on Corbyn. Has he not put forward a fully costed package of measures in 2017 and is expected to do the same this weekend? I'm unaware of anyone in Labour who has argued that addressing low wages was anything other than a part of an overall suite of measures
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 13, 2019, 07:04:05 AM
Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 09:29:53 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 12, 2019, 06:48:44 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 03:53:37 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 12, 2019, 03:18:17 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on November 12, 2019, 12:52:22 PM
Minimum wage is £8.21 an hour for someone aged 25 and over.

Time for real change

I'm up for helping people but £15ph for this sort of work is not realistic. I run my own business and if the minimum wage was £15ph I'd be out of business pretty quick. Don't forget you have NI contributions and employers tax to pay on top of that.
It's these sort of crazy economics from Labour that scare people who create businesses and jobs.

Talk me through this. On £8.21 in Corbyn's constituency how long would your working week need to be to achieve non poverty levels of accommodation, food, clothing and heat. At this stage I'm not even getting into things like a pint or a tv or a movie?

At £15.00 how would it improve?? What is the propensity to spend by people earning £15.00 per hour.

Particularly interested in the bits of this you describe as crazy?

They might not get £15 it's an opening salvo but £8.21 is obscene

You see , you see £15 per hour for minimum wage and think that solves all problems everywhere. But how much does a trades person then get an hour? What about other skilled people? It's all relative. It push wages up everywhere, which in turn pushes up costs. Who has to stump up? The consumer. Businesses don't absorb these costs. In real terms, probably no one is better off.
That's why this is crazy economics.

I get that it is difficult to make ends meet on £8.21 ph, but it's a multi faceted solution. Working families have always struggled to make ends meet going right back over this past 100 or 200 years. It's not a new problem and just simply paying people more isn't the answer.

That's a standard business as usual view of minimum wage. But UK wages post inflation are 15% lower than in 2007. This is not business as usual. Unemployment is very low yet the tax take has not improved. This is very strange. Most of the new jobs are low pay. Plus the UK has a current account deficit. It all builds into a very challenging picture a long way from business as usual.
It's a different model that requires different thinking.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 13, 2019, 07:35:16 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 12, 2019, 08:47:05 PM
Quote from: five points on November 12, 2019, 08:45:50 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 12, 2019, 08:28:45 PM
So why do people with homes and families and responsibilities and families not work there?

Because it's shit?

In what way?

You hardly need me to explain how working in McDonald's is a shit job.

Shit company, shit product, shit atmosphere, shit HR policies.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 13, 2019, 08:59:34 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 12, 2019, 10:54:50 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 09:29:53 PM

You see , you see £15 per hour for minimum wage and think that solves all problems everywhere

Why are you resorting to lies?
I didn't say this. You have invented it.
It cannot possibly help your argument. It's just a lie. Your lie

Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 09:29:53 PM
But how much does a trades person then get an hour? What about other skilled people? It's all relative.
Wages are relative. I think most people get that

Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 09:29:53 PM

It push wages up everywhere, which in turn pushes up costs.
The educational value of this site grows

Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 09:29:53 PM
Who has to stump up? The consumer. Businesses don't absorb these costs. In real terms, probably no one is better off.

Society already stumps up. Housing allowance?? In work benefits?? Food banks??

Is the market working well enough for you for us to leave it well alone??

Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 09:29:53 PM
That's why this is crazy economics.

I get that it is difficult to make ends meet on £8.21 ph, but it's a multi faceted solution. Working families have always struggled to make ends meet going right back over this past 100 or 200 years. It's not a new problem and just simply paying people more isn't the answer.

I haven't heard any of your multi-faceted solution but I'm willing to listen.

The fact that poor people are poor is no reason to leave them poor.

Again don't pretend that anybody claimed that paying people more was a magic bullet or a single solution . The attack was on Corbyn. Has he not put forward a fully costed package of measures in 2017 and is expected to do the same this weekend? I'm unaware of anyone in Labour who has argued that addressing low wages was anything other than a part of an overall suite of measures

I tried to have a grown up discussion with you, but you've resorted to being a cheeky cnut.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: t_mac on November 13, 2019, 09:04:29 AM
Poor Trailer - Bless - called out and going run away.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: APM on November 13, 2019, 09:29:30 AM
£15 / hour is about the same as £30k per year!! For working in McDonalds! **

What does that mean then for a supervisor's salary; for a manager's salary!!
Workers will want to maintain their wage differentials relative to other workers.  Teachers should be paid more than classroom assistants and will want to maintain their salary differentials. 

A minimum salary of £15/hour would have a major impact on wage-driven inflation - in a short period of time you would find that £15/hr wouldn't be enough to get by on either? 

Those in the lowest skilled, zero qualifications required jobs, that can be done part-time by 16 year old students, will always find themselves on the lowest wages and struggling to make ends meet.  There is income support in the form of working tax credits for these people.  Perhaps there needs to be more support, to ensure that these people are not falling between the cracks into a benefit trap. 

There is no doubt that inequality has increased.  As a percentage (and certainly in absolute terms), I suspect that there is a widening gap between Doctors and Nurses, Senior Executives and Administrators etc. That ought to be addressed, but you don't address it with fantasy economics, pretending that someone working in McDonalds can have the lifestyle of someone currently working at £30k p/a because that is simply not realistic or sustainable! 

** Edit - I realise that the poster above didn't say £15/hour. 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: magpie seanie on November 13, 2019, 09:49:50 AM
For context - McDonald's in the UK made profits of £341 million last year with one Director being paid £783k.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 10:02:47 AM
Quote from: five points on November 13, 2019, 07:35:16 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 12, 2019, 08:47:05 PM
Quote from: five points on November 12, 2019, 08:45:50 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 12, 2019, 08:28:45 PM
So why do people with homes and families and responsibilities and families not work there?

Because it's shit?

In what way?

You hardly need me to explain how working in McDonald's is a shit job.

Shit company, shit product, shit atmosphere, shit HR policies.

I have no idea if mcDonalds is a shit company to work for.
I don't suppose staff really care about the product

Wages and conditions tend to be people's main concern and viable alternatives they have
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 10:05:05 AM
Quote from: trailer on November 13, 2019, 08:59:34 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 12, 2019, 10:54:50 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 09:29:53 PM

You see , you see £15 per hour for minimum wage and think that solves all problems everywhere

Why are you resorting to lies?
I didn't say this. You have invented it.
It cannot possibly help your argument. It's just a lie. Your lie

Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 09:29:53 PM
But how much does a trades person then get an hour? What about other skilled people? It's all relative.
Wages are relative. I think most people get that

Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 09:29:53 PM

It push wages up everywhere, which in turn pushes up costs.
The educational value of this site grows

Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 09:29:53 PM
Who has to stump up? The consumer. Businesses don't absorb these costs. In real terms, probably no one is better off.

Society already stumps up. Housing allowance?? In work benefits?? Food banks??

Is the market working well enough for you for us to leave it well alone??

Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 09:29:53 PM
That's why this is crazy economics.

I get that it is difficult to make ends meet on £8.21 ph, but it's a multi faceted solution. Working families have always struggled to make ends meet going right back over this past 100 or 200 years. It's not a new problem and just simply paying people more isn't the answer.

I haven't heard any of your multi-faceted solution but I'm willing to listen.

The fact that poor people are poor is no reason to leave them poor.

Again don't pretend that anybody claimed that paying people more was a magic bullet or a single solution . The attack was on Corbyn. Has he not put forward a fully costed package of measures in 2017 and is expected to do the same this weekend? I'm unaware of anyone in Labour who has argued that addressing low wages was anything other than a part of an overall suite of measures


I tried to have a grown up discussion with you, but you've resorted to being a cheeky cnut.

How did telling lies fit into your grown up discussion.

You were found out and called out and are now huffing.

If you would like to revert to the substantive points I'm happy to engage
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 10:10:22 AM
Quote from: APM on November 13, 2019, 09:29:30 AM
£15 / hour is about the same as £30k per year!! For working in McDonalds! **

What does that mean then for a supervisor's salary; for a manager's salary!!
Workers will want to maintain their wage differentials relative to other workers.  Teachers should be paid more than classroom assistants and will want to maintain their salary differentials. 

A minimum salary of £15/hour would have a major impact on wage-driven inflation - in a short period of time you would find that £15/hr wouldn't be enough to get by on either? 

Those in the lowest skilled, zero qualifications required jobs, that can be done part-time by 16 year old students, will always find themselves on the lowest wages and struggling to make ends meet.  There is income support in the form of working tax credits for these people.  Perhaps there needs to be more support, to ensure that these people are not falling between the cracks into a benefit trap. 

There is no doubt that inequality has increased.  As a percentage (and certainly in absolute terms), I suspect that there is a widening gap between Doctors and Nurses, Senior Executives and Administrators etc. That ought to be addressed, but you don't address it with fantasy economics, pretending that someone working in McDonalds can have the lifestyle of someone currently working at £30k p/a because that is simply not realistic or sustainable! 

** Edit - I realise that the poster above didn't say £15/hour.

"These people". Probably just a slip of the keyboard

Wage differential isn't the resolution here. They exist and will persist. The point is people on the lowest rung have to live and a civilised society needs to address what sort of living they can afford. Current system is cracked.

I can't sit down and tell someone below the poverty line and in full time work that they can't have a decent wage because others would have to get a pay ride as well
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: magpie seanie on November 13, 2019, 10:43:10 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 13, 2019, 09:49:50 AM
For context - McDonald's in the UK made profits of £341 million last year with one Director being paid £783k.

Sorry - was in a rush when I typed this and meant to say that was a 19% increase in profits. This is a big company making big profits and paying top Executives handsomely. I don't think £15/hr should be the minimum wage but certainly McDonald's can afford to pay that and should.

The economic model in place in Britain (and a lot of Western Europe and the US and perhaps elsewhere) presently is grossly unfair and is only going to go one way. Major changes are needed.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: TheOptimist on November 13, 2019, 10:48:25 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 13, 2019, 10:43:10 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 13, 2019, 09:49:50 AM
For context - McDonald's in the UK made profits of £341 million last year with one Director being paid £783k.

Sorry - was in a rush when I typed this and meant to say that was a 19% increase in profits. This is a big company making big profits and paying top Executives handsomely. I don't think £15/hr should be the minimum wage but certainly McDonald's can afford to pay that and should.

The economic model in place in Britain (and a lot of Western Europe and the US and perhaps elsewhere) presently is grossly unfair and is only going to go one way. Major changes are needed.

A minimum wage of £30k per year would put alot of businesses out of business.

I used to work in McDonalds as a student. Hated it, couldn't wait to work myself up to something better. Maybe McDonalds staff should do that if they want to earn more?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on November 13, 2019, 11:01:21 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 13, 2019, 10:43:10 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 13, 2019, 09:49:50 AM
For context - McDonald's in the UK made profits of £341 million last year with one Director being paid £783k.

Sorry - was in a rush when I typed this and meant to say that was a 19% increase in profits. This is a big company making big profits and paying top Executives handsomely. I don't think £15/hr should be the minimum wage but certainly McDonald's can afford to pay that and should.

The economic model in place in Britain (and a lot of Western Europe and the US and perhaps elsewhere) presently is grossly unfair and is only going to go one way. Major changes are needed.

They still are a shit company. They even treat their executives like shit. https://www.thejournal.ie/mcdonalds-ceo-departure-steve-easterbrook-4877995-Nov2019/ We shouldn't be basing our key macroeconomic policies on the practices of shit companies.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Taylor on November 13, 2019, 11:03:28 AM
Quote from: TheOptimist on November 13, 2019, 10:48:25 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 13, 2019, 10:43:10 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 13, 2019, 09:49:50 AM
For context - McDonald's in the UK made profits of £341 million last year with one Director being paid £783k.

Sorry - was in a rush when I typed this and meant to say that was a 19% increase in profits. This is a big company making big profits and paying top Executives handsomely. I don't think £15/hr should be the minimum wage but certainly McDonald's can afford to pay that and should.

The economic model in place in Britain (and a lot of Western Europe and the US and perhaps elsewhere) presently is grossly unfair and is only going to go one way. Major changes are needed.

A minimum wage of £30k per year would put alot of businesses out of business.

I used to work in McDonalds as a student. Hated it, couldn't wait to work myself up to something better. Maybe McDonalds staff should do that if they want to earn more?

The McDonalds corporation made more because they are taking a bigger slice from franchise owners as well as increased revenue

The current profit margin of 4%-6% for restaurant owners would be closer to 1%-2% if they were paying staff £15hr.

Salary is paid by the restaurant owners so McDonalds themselves dont dictate salary
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: APM on November 13, 2019, 11:04:45 AM
Note what I said about inequality - particularly the salaries of top execs.  I don't think it is defensible.

According to McDonald's website, they employ 120,000 people in the UK**.  Let's assume that relates to 60,000 Full Time Equivalent. 
If McDonald's paid an extra £2.50 per hour for 60,000 employees,  and didn't pass the extra cost onto their customers, it would wipe a profit of £341m out entirely.  That's OK if you don't want profit taking. But profits can a good thing.  It provide's a return for shareholders (often pension funds), an incentive for investment and retained profit can provide the means for reinvestment.  If you wipe out McDonald's profits by giving an extra £2.50/hour to the workers, does that make the business more or less sustainable for the self-same workers and McDonald's suppliers.  It's also worth asking, what level of profit is acceptable - £300m?, £200m? £10m?. 

Whether people like it or not, there is a market for labour and successive governments have correctly intervened in the market to first provide for a minimum wage and then provide a living wage.  There are working tax credits (again maybe these should be increased) to provide a minimum basic income for workers.  However, it is not sustainable for people to go from earning £8/hour to £15/hour overnight, because all that will happen is that will happen is that  the cost of doing business and the cost of living will rise accordingly and the lowest skilled jobs will still end up being the lowest salaries in real terms. 

** Just seen the point above about the franchise owners and I'll admit that I don't know much about their model.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 13, 2019, 12:10:55 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 10:05:05 AM
Quote from: trailer on November 13, 2019, 08:59:34 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 12, 2019, 10:54:50 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 09:29:53 PM

You see , you see £15 per hour for minimum wage and think that solves all problems everywhere

Why are you resorting to lies?
I didn't say this. You have invented it.
It cannot possibly help your argument. It's just a lie. Your lie

Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 09:29:53 PM
But how much does a trades person then get an hour? What about other skilled people? It's all relative.
Wages are relative. I think most people get that

Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 09:29:53 PM

It push wages up everywhere, which in turn pushes up costs.
The educational value of this site grows

Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 09:29:53 PM
Who has to stump up? The consumer. Businesses don't absorb these costs. In real terms, probably no one is better off.

Society already stumps up. Housing allowance?? In work benefits?? Food banks??

Is the market working well enough for you for us to leave it well alone??

Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 09:29:53 PM
That's why this is crazy economics.

I get that it is difficult to make ends meet on £8.21 ph, but it's a multi faceted solution. Working families have always struggled to make ends meet going right back over this past 100 or 200 years. It's not a new problem and just simply paying people more isn't the answer.

I haven't heard any of your multi-faceted solution but I'm willing to listen.

The fact that poor people are poor is no reason to leave them poor.

Again don't pretend that anybody claimed that paying people more was a magic bullet or a single solution . The attack was on Corbyn. Has he not put forward a fully costed package of measures in 2017 and is expected to do the same this weekend? I'm unaware of anyone in Labour who has argued that addressing low wages was anything other than a part of an overall suite of measures


I tried to have a grown up discussion with you, but you've resorted to being a cheeky cnut.

How did telling lies fit into your grown up discussion.

You were found out and called out and are now huffing.

If you would like to revert to the substantive points I'm happy to engage

I didn't tell any lies
I'm not huffing, I'm calling you out for being a cheeky, ill mannered cnut.
You're grand, I'll make my point without engaging with you.

So having said that

£15ph for flipping burgers or doing any sort of low skilled job is crazy economics.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on November 13, 2019, 12:22:24 PM
There are alway going to be people in low skill, low paid jobs due to having no or limited qualifications. The reasons for that are a totally separate and more complex debate but paying someone £15 an hour to work in McDonalds isn't sensible. I'm sure Jeremy Corbyn knows this but it's election time so we are going to hear all sorts of nonsense that will never happen.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: armaghniac on November 13, 2019, 12:29:44 PM
Quote from: five points on November 12, 2019, 05:49:40 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 12, 2019, 05:00:03 PM

Israel runs 2 legal systems and has separate roads for Jews and non Jews.
It's pure apartheid.

At least one dirty lie there and probably two.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/yourview/dispelling-the-myth-of-jews-only-roads-in-the-west-bank-856339.html

That  article makes clear that  there are  some roads  where Palestinians are banned. It also makes clear that people have different number plates, which is in itself a form of apartheid.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 13, 2019, 12:44:41 PM
Median US wages are more or less the same as in 1975. Wages have been suppressed in favour of capital growth. This is the system.
If Labour win the system will change and those at the bottom will get preferential treatment. This is how capital versus labour works.
The billionaires have a lot of fat.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on November 13, 2019, 12:55:59 PM
The problems are not wholly related to wage. They are as much related to cost of living.

What proportion of a wage was spent on funding the roof over your head in the 1950s? 1970s? 1990s? Now?

I would expect it has risen for 99% of people.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 13, 2019, 01:04:40 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on November 13, 2019, 12:55:59 PM
The problems are not wholly related to wage. They are as much related to cost of living.

What proportion of a wage was spent on funding the roof over your head in the 1950s? 1970s? 1990s? Now?

I would expect it has risen for 99% of people.
in 1980 50% of housing in London was social housing.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 13, 2019, 01:59:11 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on November 13, 2019, 12:29:44 PM
Quote from: five points on November 12, 2019, 05:49:40 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 12, 2019, 05:00:03 PM

Israel runs 2 legal systems and has separate roads for Jews and non Jews.
It's pure apartheid.

At least one dirty lie there and probably two.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/yourview/dispelling-the-myth-of-jews-only-roads-in-the-west-bank-856339.html

That  article makes clear that  there are  some roads  where Palestinians are banned. It also makes clear that people have different number plates, which is in itself a form of apartheid.

Context.
Quote
However, for security reasons, a very small percentage of West Bank roads around Israeli settlements (about 40 km in total according to the Israeli human rights organisation B'tselem) are prohibited to Palestinian traffic. But, even these 40 km of restricted roads are open to Israeli citizens of all faiths (including Muslims), east Jerusalem Palestinians (most of whom are Muslim), and foreign visitors of all faiths – Jews, Muslims, Christians, Druze and Circassians.

* Moreover, even the 40 km of restricted roads in Israeli controlled sections of the West Bank (Area C) should be placed in context. Israelis, for instance, are not permitted to drive on roads in the Palestinian controlled West Bank (Area A). This is because PA security personnel (and the IDF) can't guarantee the safety of drivers with Israeli license plates travelling in Palestinian areas.

Sauce for the goose & gander doesn't exactly connote apartheid.

If security-related road access restrictions and different number plates for different territories really mean apartheid, I grew up in an apartheid zone.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: magpie seanie on November 13, 2019, 02:02:18 PM
Quote from: TheOptimist on November 13, 2019, 10:48:25 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 13, 2019, 10:43:10 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 13, 2019, 09:49:50 AM
For context - McDonald's in the UK made profits of £341 million last year with one Director being paid £783k.

Sorry - was in a rush when I typed this and meant to say that was a 19% increase in profits. This is a big company making big profits and paying top Executives handsomely. I don't think £15/hr should be the minimum wage but certainly McDonald's can afford to pay that and should.

The economic model in place in Britain (and a lot of Western Europe and the US and perhaps elsewhere) presently is grossly unfair and is only going to go one way. Major changes are needed.

A minimum wage of £30k per year would put alot of businesses out of business.

I used to work in McDonalds as a student. Hated it, couldn't wait to work myself up to something better. Maybe McDonalds staff should do that if they want to earn more?

Maybe read what I posted again because you've stated something that I clearly agreed with in such a way as to make it appear I disagreed.

As for the comments on what other people should do with their lives - how do you feel when people tell YOU how to live your life? Do people not deserve to get an adequate wage for work they perform? If in this case the answer is no then clearly the business is not viable. Or addtitional profits are being made on the backs of underpayment of workers. Whichever it is I don't think it's good and it's becoming less and less sustainable as an economic model.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 02:07:05 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 13, 2019, 12:10:55 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 10:05:05 AM
Quote from: trailer on November 13, 2019, 08:59:34 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 12, 2019, 10:54:50 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 09:29:53 PM

You see , you see £15 per hour for minimum wage and think that solves all problems everywhere

Why are you resorting to lies?
I didn't say this. You have invented it.
It cannot possibly help your argument. It's just a lie. Your lie

Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 09:29:53 PM
But how much does a trades person then get an hour? What about other skilled people? It's all relative.
Wages are relative. I think most people get that

Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 09:29:53 PM

It push wages up everywhere, which in turn pushes up costs.
The educational value of this site grows

Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 09:29:53 PM
Who has to stump up? The consumer. Businesses don't absorb these costs. In real terms, probably no one is better off.

Society already stumps up. Housing allowance?? In work benefits?? Food banks??

Is the market working well enough for you for us to leave it well alone??

Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 09:29:53 PM
That's why this is crazy economics.

I get that it is difficult to make ends meet on £8.21 ph, but it's a multi faceted solution. Working families have always struggled to make ends meet going right back over this past 100 or 200 years. It's not a new problem and just simply paying people more isn't the answer.

I haven't heard any of your multi-faceted solution but I'm willing to listen.

The fact that poor people are poor is no reason to leave them poor.

Again don't pretend that anybody claimed that paying people more was a magic bullet or a single solution . The attack was on Corbyn. Has he not put forward a fully costed package of measures in 2017 and is expected to do the same this weekend? I'm unaware of anyone in Labour who has argued that addressing low wages was anything other than a part of an overall suite of measures


I tried to have a grown up discussion with you, but you've resorted to being a cheeky cnut.

How did telling lies fit into your grown up discussion.

You were found out and called out and are now huffing.

If you would like to revert to the substantive points I'm happy to engage

I didn't tell any lies
I'm not huffing, I'm calling you out for being a cheeky, ill mannered cnut.
You're grand, I'll make my point without engaging with you.

So having said that

£15ph for flipping burgers or doing any sort of low skilled job is crazy economics.

Crikey

Lets start with the lie.

Firstly you posted this about me.
Quote from: trailer on November 12, 2019, 09:29:53 PM
you see £15 per hour for minimum wage and think that solves all problems everywhere.
Deny this if you will but lets face it I am going to find it pretty easy to prove that you did in fact post it.

Secondly it isn't true and is therefore a lie. Deny it if you will but at least have the decency to post the proof that you are  relying upon.

While I'm at it I not sure how you are substantiating the accusation of me being wither ill-mannered or cheeky. I am however guilty as charged of being a cnut so I'll that one pass.

Anyway I'm sure all that is dullx3 for anyone else to read

So the substantive issues. Currently we have a significant number of people in full time work living below the poverty line. If we excluded public support (housing allowance, in work benefits etc) the number would be a lot higher. Is this good? Should we leave well alone? If not what should we do? Happy to consider multi-faceted responses
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 13, 2019, 02:07:18 PM
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/general-election-2019/new-uup-chief-steve-aiken-looks-to-unseat-dup-stalwart-sammy-wilson-38685615.html
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: magpie seanie on November 13, 2019, 02:11:33 PM
Quote from: APM on November 13, 2019, 11:04:45 AM
Note what I said about inequality - particularly the salaries of top execs.  I don't think it is defensible.

According to McDonald's website, they employ 120,000 people in the UK**.  Let's assume that relates to 60,000 Full Time Equivalent. 
If McDonald's paid an extra £2.50 per hour for 60,000 employees,  and didn't pass the extra cost onto their customers, it would wipe a profit of £341m out entirely.  That's OK if you don't want profit taking. But profits can a good thing.  It provide's a return for shareholders (often pension funds), an incentive for investment and retained profit can provide the means for reinvestment.  If you wipe out McDonald's profits by giving an extra £2.50/hour to the workers, does that make the business more or less sustainable for the self-same workers and McDonald's suppliers.  It's also worth asking, what level of profit is acceptable - £300m?, £200m? £10m?. 

Whether people like it or not, there is a market for labour and successive governments have correctly intervened in the market to first provide for a minimum wage and then provide a living wage.  There are working tax credits (again maybe these should be increased) to provide a minimum basic income for workers.  However, it is not sustainable for people to go from earning £8/hour to £15/hour overnight, because all that will happen is that will happen is that  the cost of doing business and the cost of living will rise accordingly and the lowest skilled jobs will still end up being the lowest salaries in real terms. 

** Just seen the point above about the franchise owners and I'll admit that I don't know much about their model.

There's a lot in that that strays from the central argument. Firstly, I don't believe that what's being sought here is an increase for every worker. So the 60000 FTE's getting a pay rise isn't realistic. Personally I'd feel that running McDonald's in the UK wouldn't be as difficult a job as PM so getting £783k (only one person I know but I'm sure there are several very well paid executives and managers) seems absolutely ridiculous so I'd suggest savings could be made on the higher end salaries. Or perhaps if pay increases are a no-no then the company could use some of their massive profits to provide other benefits for staff....to make it less of a "shit" place to work. Of course that's not their economic model. They don't want people to stay long term. They want to pay as little as possible in wages and don't mind high staff turnover.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 13, 2019, 02:13:14 PM
Quote from: five points on November 13, 2019, 01:59:11 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on November 13, 2019, 12:29:44 PM
Quote from: five points on November 12, 2019, 05:49:40 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 12, 2019, 05:00:03 PM

Israel runs 2 legal systems and has separate roads for Jews and non Jews.
It's pure apartheid.

At least one dirty lie there and probably two.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/yourview/dispelling-the-myth-of-jews-only-roads-in-the-west-bank-856339.html

That  article makes clear that  there are  some roads  where Palestinians are banned. It also makes clear that people have different number plates, which is in itself a form of apartheid.

Context.
Quote
However, for security reasons, a very small percentage of West Bank roads around Israeli settlements (about 40 km in total according to the Israeli human rights organisation B'tselem) are prohibited to Palestinian traffic. But, even these 40 km of restricted roads are open to Israeli citizens of all faiths (including Muslims), east Jerusalem Palestinians (most of whom are Muslim), and foreign visitors of all faiths – Jews, Muslims, Christians, Druze and Circassians.

* Moreover, even the 40 km of restricted roads in Israeli controlled sections of the West Bank (Area C) should be placed in context. Israelis, for instance, are not permitted to drive on roads in the Palestinian controlled West Bank (Area A). This is because PA security personnel (and the IDF) can't guarantee the safety of drivers with Israeli license plates travelling in Palestinian areas.

Sauce for the goose & gander doesn't exactly connote apartheid.

If security-related road access restrictions and different number plates for different territories really mean apartheid, I grew up in an apartheid zone.
West Bank Palestinians aren't allowed into occupied East Jerusalem to pray. West Bank Jewish settlers are. That's apartheid.
Every time Israel has an election Palestinians in the West Bank are locked down. The real sign is in incomes. Israeli GDP per head is $41k. Gaza is $876
Jim Crow in Alabama was the same. A money racket. 

Israel could end up destroying Judaism. Drops out rates amongst young US Jews are very high.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 02:16:50 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 13, 2019, 02:02:18 PM
Quote from: TheOptimist on November 13, 2019, 10:48:25 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 13, 2019, 10:43:10 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 13, 2019, 09:49:50 AM
For context - McDonald's in the UK made profits of £341 million last year with one Director being paid £783k.

Sorry - was in a rush when I typed this and meant to say that was a 19% increase in profits. This is a big company making big profits and paying top Executives handsomely. I don't think £15/hr should be the minimum wage but certainly McDonald's can afford to pay that and should.

The economic model in place in Britain (and a lot of Western Europe and the US and perhaps elsewhere) presently is grossly unfair and is only going to go one way. Major changes are needed.

A minimum wage of £30k per year would put alot of businesses out of business.

I used to work in McDonalds as a student. Hated it, couldn't wait to work myself up to something better. Maybe McDonalds staff should do that if they want to earn more?

Maybe read what I posted again because you've stated something that I clearly agreed with in such a way as to make it appear I disagreed.

As for the comments on what other people should do with their lives - how do you feel when people tell YOU how to live your life? Do people not deserve to get an adequate wage for work they perform? If in this case the answer is no then clearly the business is not viable. Or addtitional profits are being made on the backs of underpayment of workers. Whichever it is I don't think it's good and it's becoming less and less sustainable as an economic model.

Before I go on I not hugely interested in McDonalds as a corporation nor am I adamant that I attach any significance to the £15.00 per hour figure.

But as they are the matters in the spotlight I'll run with the example.

If McDonalds paid a living wage (relative to the location) to their lowest skilled staff the 1 or more of the following 3 happen:
1) McDonalds dont pass on the wages increase and its cut into McDonald's profits.
2) McDonalds pass on the wage increase to consumers who accept it as the see it it as value.
3) McDonalds try to pass on the wage increases to consumers who don't wear it. Business ceases to be viable.

Which 1 of the 3 are we scared of? Or are we saying that its socially necessary that McDonald's exist and the lowest skilled workers are the ones that have to take the squeeze to make it happen?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Taylor on November 13, 2019, 02:32:24 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 13, 2019, 02:11:33 PM
Quote from: APM on November 13, 2019, 11:04:45 AM
Note what I said about inequality - particularly the salaries of top execs.  I don't think it is defensible.

According to McDonald's website, they employ 120,000 people in the UK**.  Let's assume that relates to 60,000 Full Time Equivalent. 
If McDonald's paid an extra £2.50 per hour for 60,000 employees,  and didn't pass the extra cost onto their customers, it would wipe a profit of £341m out entirely.  That's OK if you don't want profit taking. But profits can a good thing.  It provide's a return for shareholders (often pension funds), an incentive for investment and retained profit can provide the means for reinvestment.  If you wipe out McDonald's profits by giving an extra £2.50/hour to the workers, does that make the business more or less sustainable for the self-same workers and McDonald's suppliers.  It's also worth asking, what level of profit is acceptable - £300m?, £200m? £10m?. 

Whether people like it or not, there is a market for labour and successive governments have correctly intervened in the market to first provide for a minimum wage and then provide a living wage.  There are working tax credits (again maybe these should be increased) to provide a minimum basic income for workers.  However, it is not sustainable for people to go from earning £8/hour to £15/hour overnight, because all that will happen is that will happen is that  the cost of doing business and the cost of living will rise accordingly and the lowest skilled jobs will still end up being the lowest salaries in real terms. 

** Just seen the point above about the franchise owners and I'll admit that I don't know much about their model.

There's a lot in that that strays from the central argument. Firstly, I don't believe that what's being sought here is an increase for every worker. So the 60000 FTE's getting a pay rise isn't realistic. Personally I'd feel that running McDonald's in the UK wouldn't be as difficult a job as PM so getting £783k (only one person I know but I'm sure there are several very well paid executives and managers) seems absolutely ridiculous so I'd suggest savings could be made on the higher end salaries. Or perhaps if pay increases are a no-no then the company could use some of their massive profits to provide other benefits for staff....to make it less of a "shit" place to work. Of course that's not their economic model. They don't want people to stay long term. They want to pay as little as possible in wages and don't mind high staff turnover.

It doesnt matter how much money you take off the executives Seany - this cannot filter to the staff.

McD franchise model means the % they take off the restaurant owner is set for up to 20 years. Thats in a legal document.

It is the restaurant owner that exclusively pays the salary to the staff - nothing to do with McD as a corporation.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on November 13, 2019, 02:56:21 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 02:16:50 PM

Which 1 of the 3 are we scared of? Or are we saying that its socially necessary that McDonald's exist and the lowest skilled workers are the ones that have to take the squeeze to make it happen?

Yes, I'm happy to say that - while also saying that McDonalds is a shit company. Because when governments get into the business of shutting down shit companies, it never ends well for anyone, least of all those who depend on low-grade employment to put food on the table.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 03:05:13 PM
Quote from: five points on November 13, 2019, 02:56:21 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 02:16:50 PM

Which 1 of the 3 are we scared of? Or are we saying that its socially necessary that McDonald's exist and the lowest skilled workers are the ones that have to take the squeeze to make it happen?

Yes, I'm happy to say that - while also saying that McDonalds is a shit company. Because when governments get into the business of shutting down shit companies, it never ends well for anyone, least of all those who depend on low-grade employment to put food on the table.

Did you see the original introduction of the NMW, its subsequent increases or rebranding as a NLW as the government "shutting down shit companies"?

If McDonalds did shut down what would happen to the money spent in it - would it evaporate from the economy? What would happen the meals served in McDonalds - would those people just not eat?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: armaghniac on November 13, 2019, 03:12:56 PM
Quote from: five points on November 13, 2019, 01:59:11 PM
If security-related road access restrictions and different number plates for different territories really mean apartheid, I grew up in an apartheid zone.

Likely in a West Bank settlement.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on November 13, 2019, 03:13:22 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 03:05:13 PM

Did you see the original introduction of the NMW, its subsequent increases or rebranding as a NLW as the government "shutting down shit companies"?
I honestly can't remember, it was 20 years ago. I've read and seen in practice a lot of economics since though.

Quote
If McDonalds did shut down what would happen to the money spent in it - would it evaporate from the economy? What would happen the meals served in McDonalds - would those people just not eat?

McDonalds will never shut down though, least of all in response to higher staff costs. They'll just continue to automate and their "restaurants" will employ fewer and fewer staff.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 13, 2019, 03:13:56 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on November 13, 2019, 03:12:56 PM
Quote from: five points on November 13, 2019, 01:59:11 PM
If security-related road access restrictions and different number plates for different territories really mean apartheid, I grew up in an apartheid zone.

Likely in a West Bank settlement.

West bank of the Erne more like it.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 13, 2019, 03:28:27 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 02:16:50 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 13, 2019, 02:02:18 PM
Quote from: TheOptimist on November 13, 2019, 10:48:25 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 13, 2019, 10:43:10 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 13, 2019, 09:49:50 AM
For context - McDonald's in the UK made profits of £341 million last year with one Director being paid £783k.

Sorry - was in a rush when I typed this and meant to say that was a 19% increase in profits. This is a big company making big profits and paying top Executives handsomely. I don't think £15/hr should be the minimum wage but certainly McDonald's can afford to pay that and should.

The economic model in place in Britain (and a lot of Western Europe and the US and perhaps elsewhere) presently is grossly unfair and is only going to go one way. Major changes are needed.

A minimum wage of £30k per year would put alot of businesses out of business.

I used to work in McDonalds as a student. Hated it, couldn't wait to work myself up to something better. Maybe McDonalds staff should do that if they want to earn more?

Maybe read what I posted again because you've stated something that I clearly agreed with in such a way as to make it appear I disagreed.

As for the comments on what other people should do with their lives - how do you feel when people tell YOU how to live your life? Do people not deserve to get an adequate wage for work they perform? If in this case the answer is no then clearly the business is not viable. Or addtitional profits are being made on the backs of underpayment of workers. Whichever it is I don't think it's good and it's becoming less and less sustainable as an economic model.

Before I go on I not hugely interested in McDonalds as a corporation nor am I adamant that I attach any significance to the £15.00 per hour figure.

But as they are the matters in the spotlight I'll run with the example.

If McDonalds paid a living wage (relative to the location) to their lowest skilled staff the 1 or more of the following 3 happen:
1) McDonalds dont pass on the wages increase and its cut into McDonald's profits.
2) McDonalds pass on the wage increase to consumers who accept it as the see it it as value.
3) McDonalds try to pass on the wage increases to consumers who don't wear it. Business ceases to be viable.
4) McDonalds try to pass on the wage increases to consumers who don't wear it Business then agrees to absorb the costs and reduce share dividend and reduce Directors and executives salaries accordingly

Which 1 of the 3 are we scared of? Or are we saying that its socially necessary that McDonald's exist and the lowest skilled workers are the ones that have to take the squeeze to make it happen?

Added in a point 4 that no one seems to talk about.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 03:34:19 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 13, 2019, 03:28:27 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 02:16:50 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 13, 2019, 02:02:18 PM
Quote from: TheOptimist on November 13, 2019, 10:48:25 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 13, 2019, 10:43:10 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 13, 2019, 09:49:50 AM
For context - McDonald's in the UK made profits of £341 million last year with one Director being paid £783k.

Sorry - was in a rush when I typed this and meant to say that was a 19% increase in profits. This is a big company making big profits and paying top Executives handsomely. I don't think £15/hr should be the minimum wage but certainly McDonald's can afford to pay that and should.

The economic model in place in Britain (and a lot of Western Europe and the US and perhaps elsewhere) presently is grossly unfair and is only going to go one way. Major changes are needed.

A minimum wage of £30k per year would put alot of businesses out of business.

I used to work in McDonalds as a student. Hated it, couldn't wait to work myself up to something better. Maybe McDonalds staff should do that if they want to earn more?

Maybe read what I posted again because you've stated something that I clearly agreed with in such a way as to make it appear I disagreed.

As for the comments on what other people should do with their lives - how do you feel when people tell YOU how to live your life? Do people not deserve to get an adequate wage for work they perform? If in this case the answer is no then clearly the business is not viable. Or addtitional profits are being made on the backs of underpayment of workers. Whichever it is I don't think it's good and it's becoming less and less sustainable as an economic model.

Before I go on I not hugely interested in McDonalds as a corporation nor am I adamant that I attach any significance to the £15.00 per hour figure.

But as they are the matters in the spotlight I'll run with the example.

If McDonalds paid a living wage (relative to the location) to their lowest skilled staff the 1 or more of the following 3 happen:
1) McDonalds dont pass on the wages increase and its cut into McDonald's profits.
2) McDonalds pass on the wage increase to consumers who accept it as the see it it as value.
3) McDonalds try to pass on the wage increases to consumers who don't wear it. Business ceases to be viable.
4) McDonalds try to pass on the wage increases to consumers who don't wear it Business then agrees to absorb the costs and reduce share dividend and reduce Directors and executives salaries accordingly

Which 1 of the 3 are we scared of? Or are we saying that its socially necessary that McDonald's exist and the lowest skilled workers are the ones that have to take the squeeze to make it happen?

Added in a point 4 that no one seems to talk about.
4 is a variant of 1.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 03:43:45 PM
Quote from: five points on November 13, 2019, 03:13:22 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 03:05:13 PM

Did you see the original introduction of the NMW, its subsequent increases or rebranding as a NLW as the government "shutting down shit companies"?
I honestly can't remember, it was 20 years ago. I've read and seen in practice a lot of economics since though.

Quote
If McDonalds did shut down what would happen to the money spent in it - would it evaporate from the economy? What would happen the meals served in McDonalds - would those people just not eat?

McDonalds will never shut down though, least of all in response to higher staff costs. They'll just continue to automate and their "restaurants" will employ fewer and fewer staff.

Business can fail. Not being to able charge enough for your product to pay your wages would be one of the reasons. Its not a reasons for telling a section of society that they have to accept a wage that you cannot life of though,

Your automation point is completely valid. I get that. That is one of the reasons why the minimum wage can only work as an element of an overall suite of policies.

A future where business operating on line attach a separate tax structure to those paying property rates is likely to be not far away. the use of technology to displace labour on the high street is a similar challenge. 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on November 13, 2019, 03:47:21 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 03:43:45 PM
Business can fail. Not being to able charge enough for your product to pay your wages would be one of the reasons. Its not a reasons for telling a section of society that they have to accept a wage that you cannot life of though,


There's no compelling reason why students and youngsters living with mum and dad should of right be entitled to £15 an hour though.

On the other hand, if you need a decent job that will feed, clothe and shelter you and your family, you won't bother looking at the likes of McDonalds.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 13, 2019, 03:56:28 PM
I have no problem with "Executives" being paid 500k, 600k or £1m+ per year. If they generate profits and grow businesses that then employ more people directly or indirectly then I'm ok with that. They of course should pay their fair share of tax.
Some people think that those in charge should be on minimum wage and those on minimum wage should be on 15ph. When you clock out at McDonalds (or any other low skilled job) you get to go home and not think about anything to do with work until your next shift. When you're accountable to other management, investors, and have to worry about numerous financial commitments the business has then you don't have that luxury.
Remember if it was easy everyone would be doing it.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 13, 2019, 03:57:25 PM
Quote from: five points on November 13, 2019, 03:47:21 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 03:43:45 PM
Business can fail. Not being to able charge enough for your product to pay your wages would be one of the reasons. Its not a reasons for telling a section of society that they have to accept a wage that you cannot life of though,


There's no compelling reason why students and youngsters living with mum and dad should of right be entitled to £15 an hour though.

On the other hand, if you need a decent job that will feed, clothe and shelter you and your family, you won't bother looking at the likes of McDonalds.
Ultimately GBP 15 per hour is like homelessness, poverty in Yorkshire and the alcoholism of ex army people- it's political.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on November 13, 2019, 04:05:03 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 13, 2019, 03:57:25 PM
Quote from: five points on November 13, 2019, 03:47:21 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 03:43:45 PM
Business can fail. Not being to able charge enough for your product to pay your wages would be one of the reasons. Its not a reasons for telling a section of society that they have to accept a wage that you cannot life of though,


There's no compelling reason why students and youngsters living with mum and dad should of right be entitled to £15 an hour though.

On the other hand, if you need a decent job that will feed, clothe and shelter you and your family, you won't bother looking at the likes of McDonalds.
Ultimately GBP 15 per hour is like homelessness, poverty in Yorkshire and the alcoholism of ex army people- it's political.

£15 per hour for middle-class students and youngsters definitely is political.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 04:17:11 PM
Quote from: five points on November 13, 2019, 03:47:21 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 03:43:45 PM
Business can fail. Not being to able charge enough for your product to pay your wages would be one of the reasons. Its not a reasons for telling a section of society that they have to accept a wage that you cannot life of though,


There's no compelling reason why students and youngsters living with mum and dad should of right be entitled to £15 an hour though.

On the other hand, if you need a decent job that will feed, clothe and shelter you and your family, you won't bother looking at the likes of McDonalds.

As I said before i'm not focusing on McDonalds per se. We have a wider  issue of wages, especially for low skilled workers and for terms and conditions of labour. I would not be flippant about the availability of real jobs for low skilled labour. By real I mean jobs that not only offer a living wage but worker protections regarding working hours, annual leave, breaks, sick pay and working conditions.

There has been a slew of claims by politicians and some commentators in the media regarding UK employment figures that fall very far short of real jobs. The movement towards gig economy style labour markets is neither benign nor inevitable. Its something that needs to eb engaged with   
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 04:26:10 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 13, 2019, 03:56:28 PM
I have no problem with "Executives" being paid 500k, 600k or £1m+ per year. If they generate profits and grow businesses that then employ more people directly or indirectly then I'm ok with that.
I agree with that in as far as it goes. I would go further though. Not every effort that generates profits and creates employment is equally ok. Obviously one that created employment that paid a living wage would be better than one that didn't. An important distinction.

Quote from: trailer on November 13, 2019, 03:56:28 PM
They of course should pay their fair share of tax.
Couldn't disagree

Quote from: trailer on November 13, 2019, 03:56:28 PM
Some people think that those in charge should be on minimum wage and those on minimum wage should be on 15ph.
Name one person that thinks that?

Quote from: trailer on November 13, 2019, 03:56:28 PM
When you clock out at McDonalds (or any other low skilled job) you get to go home and not think about anything to do with work until your next shift. When you're accountable to other management, investors, and have to worry about numerous financial commitments the business has then you don't have that luxury.
Remember if it was easy everyone would be doing it.

So the low paid live a low stress life?

I am not saying the following to be a troll but you do sound a wee bit like Jacob Rees Mogg or that intellectual and humanitarian Dominic Rabb
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on November 13, 2019, 05:01:40 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 04:17:11 PM
The movement towards gig economy style labour markets is neither benign nor inevitable.

I think the gig economy thing is a fad that will burn itself out, if it hasn't already started to do so. I know quite a few people who went in to things like couriering as self-employed and none of them stick it too long.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Maroon Manc on November 13, 2019, 05:02:11 PM
2 million people in the UK employed on the minimum wage, don't know how many of those are on full time hours though.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 05:16:50 PM
Quote from: five points on November 13, 2019, 05:01:40 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 04:17:11 PM
The movement towards gig economy style labour markets is neither benign nor inevitable.

I think the gig economy thing is a fad that will burn itself out, if it hasn't already started to do so. I know quite a few people who went in to things like couriering as self-employed and none of them stick it too long.

https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=mcafee&p=sorry+we+missed+you+trailer#id=1&vid=9aed69e9d77ace08a154f5455fad3cc6&action=click

You would hope that the truth is not stranger than fiction but this is possibly the most thoroughly researched script yet
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on November 13, 2019, 05:51:58 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on November 13, 2019, 05:02:11 PM
2 million people in the UK employed on the minimum wage, don't know how many of those are on full time hours though.

I assume most will be on some sort of state support such as Universal Credit or tax credits
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on November 13, 2019, 06:11:42 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 05:16:50 PM
Quote from: five points on November 13, 2019, 05:01:40 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 04:17:11 PM
The movement towards gig economy style labour markets is neither benign nor inevitable.

I think the gig economy thing is a fad that will burn itself out, if it hasn't already started to do so. I know quite a few people who went in to things like couriering as self-employed and none of them stick it too long.

https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=mcafee&p=sorry+we+missed+you+trailer#id=1&vid=9aed69e9d77ace08a154f5455fad3cc6&action=click

You would hope that the truth is not stranger than fiction but this is possibly the most thoroughly researched script yet

I find Ken Loach insufferable tbh. Each one to their own but to me he's a propagandist.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 06:14:02 PM
Quote from: five points on November 13, 2019, 06:11:42 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 05:16:50 PM
Quote from: five points on November 13, 2019, 05:01:40 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 04:17:11 PM
The movement towards gig economy style labour markets is neither benign nor inevitable.

I think the gig economy thing is a fad that will burn itself out, if it hasn't already started to do so. I know quite a few people who went in to things like couriering as self-employed and none of them stick it too long.

https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=mcafee&p=sorry+we+missed+you+trailer#id=1&vid=9aed69e9d77ace08a154f5455fad3cc6&action=click

You would hope that the truth is not stranger than fiction but this is possibly the most thoroughly researched script yet

I find Ken Loach insufferable tbh. Each one to their own but to me he's a propagandist.

Do you think the scenarios he projects are untrue?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on November 13, 2019, 06:18:17 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 06:14:02 PM
Do you think the scenarios he projects are untrue?

Probably half- and quarter-truths more than blatant untruths. (That's what propaganda tends to do.)  It's a personal opinion. You are free to disagree.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 06:21:32 PM
Quote from: five points on November 13, 2019, 06:18:17 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 06:14:02 PM
Do you think the scenarios he projects are untrue?

Probably half- and quarter-truths more than blatant untruths. (That's what propaganda tends to do.)  It's a personal opinion. You are free to disagree.

It's a freedom i'll gladly exercise.

Talk of half and quarter truths is evasive tending towards extremely evasive. What is he saying that is not true?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on November 13, 2019, 06:26:24 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 06:21:32 PM
Quote from: five points on November 13, 2019, 06:18:17 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 06:14:02 PM
Do you think the scenarios he projects are untrue?

Probably half- and quarter-truths more than blatant untruths. (That's what propaganda tends to do.)  It's a personal opinion. You are free to disagree.

It's a freedom i'll gladly exercise.

Talk of half and quarter truths is evasive tending towards extremely evasive. What is he saying that is not true?

Not interested in explaining. As I said I find him insufferable and sometimes hypocritical. But its not something I deeply care about.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 06:29:05 PM
Quote from: five points on November 13, 2019, 06:26:24 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 06:21:32 PM
Quote from: five points on November 13, 2019, 06:18:17 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 06:14:02 PM
Do you think the scenarios he projects are untrue?

Probably half- and quarter-truths more than blatant untruths. (That's what propaganda tends to do.)  It's a personal opinion. You are free to disagree.

It's a freedom i'll gladly exercise.

Talk of half and quarter truths is evasive tending towards extremely evasive. What is he saying that is not true?

Not interested in explaining. As I said I find him insufferable and sometimes hypocritical. But its not something I deeply care about.

So no evasion there then
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on November 13, 2019, 06:32:35 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 06:29:05 PM
So no evasion there then

So what if there is. If you feel you can win me over to him, the stage is yours. But I couldn't give a toss.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 06:53:23 PM
Quote from: five points on November 13, 2019, 06:32:35 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 06:29:05 PM
So no evasion there then

So what if there is. If you feel you can win me over to him, the stage is yours. But I couldn't give a toss.

Not trying to win anybody over. You say he is a propagandist and deals in half truths. You offer nothing to back that up.

This forum descends into chaos if posters can throw anything out there offer no evidence to support it and run away when challenged. You could claim anything on here if people are going to engage in that sort of intellectual dishonesty
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on November 13, 2019, 06:57:40 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 06:53:23 PM
Quote from: five points on November 13, 2019, 06:32:35 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 06:29:05 PM
So no evasion there then

So what if there is. If you feel you can win me over to him, the stage is yours. But I couldn't give a toss.

Not trying to win anybody over. You say he is a propagandist and deals in half truths. You offer nothing to back that up.

This forum descends into chaos if posters can throw anything out there offer no evidence to support it and run away when challenged. You could claim anything on here if people are going to engage in that sort of intellectual dishonesty

It's a personal opinion, not an argument, so talk of evidence or intellectual dishonesty ;D is moot. I'm neither interested in arguing about him nor in somehow convincing you that my opinion is justified or that you should share it. Get over it.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 13, 2019, 07:09:54 PM
Has the election been & gone already, since nobody on this thread has mentioned it for weeks? What was the result?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: HiMucker on November 13, 2019, 07:45:11 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 13, 2019, 07:09:54 PM
Has the election been & gone already, since nobody on this thread has mentioned it for weeks? What was the result?
Well surely its a done deal with this brilliant sell here.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=97zPDojMWiQ&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on November 13, 2019, 09:02:03 PM
Jesus wept. How embarrassing!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Jim Bob on November 13, 2019, 09:21:28 PM
Drinks his tea with the teabag still in it
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 13, 2019, 09:36:07 PM
Former Labour MP Kate Hoey says she will vote DUP in General Election

Wish to feck she would just stay in Vauxhall & mind her own business.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: APM on November 14, 2019, 09:52:03 AM

The bit that no-one is talking about here is what happens to wages in the broader economy, when unskilled workers in McDonalds get a 80% pay rise in 2019.   

Firstly, supervisors and managers in McDonalds, will not tolerate earning less than an unskilled colleague. Management recognise this and maintain existing wage differentials with corresponding pay rises for workers in all parts of the business.  And if I'm on £15 per hour as a manager, and I see unskilled colleagues now getting the same wage, I also want an 80% uplift to maintain the differential that was previously there.  So I'll be looking for an extra £12.40 / hour. 

Then companies in the same sector have to start competing aggressively on wages to ensure that all of their staff don't leave to go to McDonalds.  In a short space of time, the standard hourly wage for unskilled workers in the catering and hospitality sector is £15.

The catering sector will become more attractive for a time, as people working in other low / semi-skilled jobs, decide to move into that sector, meaning that other industry sectors (retail, manufacturing etc) start to up their game.  Wages start to rise across the board. 

Lower-skilled workers on £15/hour start to think about taking out loans and mortgages to get a good car, buy a house.  House prices rise. 

Meanwhile, retailers, foodservice, manufacturers start to increase prices as a result of higher costs, but also due to the fact that there is increased demand in the economy due to the extra spending power. 

Inflation starts to rise quite fast

Bank of England puts up interest rates

Inflation has eroded away the increased wages

Higher interest rates mean that borrowers are now struggling to pay back loans on variable rates

Minimum wage workers are back where they started, only saddled with debt. 

Is anyone better off? Is there anything sustainable about this. 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: HiMucker on November 14, 2019, 10:08:32 AM
Quote from: Jim Bob on November 13, 2019, 09:21:28 PM
Drinks his tea with the teabag still in it
That will certainly put off a lot of upper class tories ;D
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 14, 2019, 10:20:01 AM
Quote from: APM on November 14, 2019, 09:52:03 AM

The bit that no-one is talking about here is what happens to wages in the broader economy, when unskilled workers in McDonalds get a 80% pay rise in 2019.   

Firstly, supervisors and managers in McDonalds, will not tolerate earning less than an unskilled colleague. Management recognise this and maintain existing wage differentials with corresponding pay rises for workers in all parts of the business.  And if I'm on £15 per hour as a manager, and I see unskilled colleagues now getting the same wage, I also want an 80% uplift to maintain the differential that was previously there.  So I'll be looking for an extra £12.40 / hour. 

Then companies in the same sector have to start competing aggressively on wages to ensure that all of their staff don't leave to go to McDonalds.  In a short space of time, the standard hourly wage for unskilled workers in the catering and hospitality sector is £15.

The catering sector will become more attractive for a time, as people working in other low / semi-skilled jobs, decide to move into that sector, meaning that other industry sectors (retail, manufacturing etc) start to up their game.  Wages start to rise across the board. 

Lower-skilled workers on £15/hour start to think about taking out loans and mortgages to get a good car, buy a house.  House prices rise. 

Meanwhile, retailers, foodservice, manufacturers start to increase prices as a result of higher costs, but also due to the fact that there is increased demand in the economy due to the extra spending power. 

Inflation starts to rise quite fast

Bank of England puts up interest rates

Inflation has eroded away the increased wages

Higher interest rates mean that borrowers are now struggling to pay back loans on variable rates

Minimum wage workers are back where they started, only saddled with debt. 

Is anyone better off? Is there anything sustainable about this.

Higher interest rates are guaranteed
So is a property crash
Longer term most people will be better off if the rich are taxed for the benefit of the wider society.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on November 14, 2019, 10:31:20 AM
80% pay rises, 32 hour working weeks, Brexit will be great.....Tooth fairy,.....
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: blewuporstuffed on November 14, 2019, 10:38:06 AM
Quote from: Jim Bob on November 13, 2019, 09:21:28 PM
Drinks his tea with the teabag still in it
Thats the worst cup of tea ever
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: APM on November 14, 2019, 10:55:08 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 14, 2019, 10:20:01 AM
Quote from: APM on November 14, 2019, 09:52:03 AM

The bit that no-one is talking about here is what happens to wages in the broader economy, when unskilled workers in McDonalds get a 80% pay rise in 2019.   

Firstly, supervisors and managers in McDonalds, will not tolerate earning less than an unskilled colleague. Management recognise this and maintain existing wage differentials with corresponding pay rises for workers in all parts of the business.  And if I'm on £15 per hour as a manager, and I see unskilled colleagues now getting the same wage, I also want an 80% uplift to maintain the differential that was previously there.  So I'll be looking for an extra £12.40 / hour. 

Then companies in the same sector have to start competing aggressively on wages to ensure that all of their staff don't leave to go to McDonalds.  In a short space of time, the standard hourly wage for unskilled workers in the catering and hospitality sector is £15.

The catering sector will become more attractive for a time, as people working in other low / semi-skilled jobs, decide to move into that sector, meaning that other industry sectors (retail, manufacturing etc) start to up their game.  Wages start to rise across the board. 

Lower-skilled workers on £15/hour start to think about taking out loans and mortgages to get a good car, buy a house.  House prices rise. 

Meanwhile, retailers, foodservice, manufacturers start to increase prices as a result of higher costs, but also due to the fact that there is increased demand in the economy due to the extra spending power. 

Inflation starts to rise quite fast

Bank of England puts up interest rates

Inflation has eroded away the increased wages

Higher interest rates mean that borrowers are now struggling to pay back loans on variable rates

Minimum wage workers are back where they started, only saddled with debt. 

Is anyone better off? Is there anything sustainable about this.

Higher interest rates are guaranteed
So is a property crash
Longer term most people will be better off if the rich are taxed for the benefit of the wider society.

I don't disagree with any of that.  But it doesn't take away from the point that I'm making that this kind of stuff is for the fairies.  There might be immediate gratification for anyone on the min wage getting a 80% pay rise with a short honeymoon period.  But it won't last because whatever about the salary in pounds and pence, a wage - price spiral will erode it away and leave them back where they started, except potentially with more debt and a lot of frustration. 

To me the answer lies in a fairer tax system.  The large companies should be paying their corporation tax and high private sector earners should be taxed appropriately. 

However, everyone should be paying their taxes and there are many working in the black economy and lots of self-employed, paying only some of the tax they should be paying.  These people may be living very comfortable lifestyles, while their neighbours may be working full time on PAYE and wondering why it is that they are the only one in the neighbourhood who can't afford two holidays in the year and an SUV.  In many cases, people's incomes don't reflect their aspirations (and its good for people to have high aspirations) and that is a problem in today's society.  Keeping up with the Jones' is a bit of an affliction. 

Everyone should be paying their fair share of tax! Those of modest means and the wealthy.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 14, 2019, 11:05:29 AM
Quote from: APM on November 14, 2019, 10:55:08 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 14, 2019, 10:20:01 AM
Quote from: APM on November 14, 2019, 09:52:03 AM

The bit that no-one is talking about here is what happens to wages in the broader economy, when unskilled workers in McDonalds get a 80% pay rise in 2019.   

Firstly, supervisors and managers in McDonalds, will not tolerate earning less than an unskilled colleague. Management recognise this and maintain existing wage differentials with corresponding pay rises for workers in all parts of the business.  And if I'm on £15 per hour as a manager, and I see unskilled colleagues now getting the same wage, I also want an 80% uplift to maintain the differential that was previously there.  So I'll be looking for an extra £12.40 / hour. 

Then companies in the same sector have to start competing aggressively on wages to ensure that all of their staff don't leave to go to McDonalds.  In a short space of time, the standard hourly wage for unskilled workers in the catering and hospitality sector is £15.

The catering sector will become more attractive for a time, as people working in other low / semi-skilled jobs, decide to move into that sector, meaning that other industry sectors (retail, manufacturing etc) start to up their game.  Wages start to rise across the board. 

Lower-skilled workers on £15/hour start to think about taking out loans and mortgages to get a good car, buy a house.  House prices rise. 

Meanwhile, retailers, foodservice, manufacturers start to increase prices as a result of higher costs, but also due to the fact that there is increased demand in the economy due to the extra spending power. 

Inflation starts to rise quite fast

Bank of England puts up interest rates

Inflation has eroded away the increased wages

Higher interest rates mean that borrowers are now struggling to pay back loans on variable rates

Minimum wage workers are back where they started, only saddled with debt. 

Is anyone better off? Is there anything sustainable about this.

Higher interest rates are guaranteed
So is a property crash
Longer term most people will be better off if the rich are taxed for the benefit of the wider society.

I don't disagree with any of that.  But it doesn't take away from the point that I'm making that this kind of stuff is for the fairies.  There might be immediate gratification for anyone on the min wage getting a 80% pay rise with a short honeymoon period.  But it won't last because whatever about the salary in pounds and pence, a wage - price spiral will erode it away and leave them back where they started, except potentially with more debt and a lot of frustration. 

To me the answer lies in a fairer tax system.  The large companies should be paying their corporation tax and high private sector earners should be taxed appropriately. 

However, everyone should be paying their taxes and there are many working in the black economy and lots of self-employed, paying only some of the tax they should be paying.  These people may be living very comfortable lifestyles, while their neighbours may be working full time on PAYE and wondering why it is that they are the only one in the neighbourhood who can't afford two holidays in the year and an SUV.  In many cases, people's incomes don't reflect their aspirations and that is a problem in today's society.  Keeping up with the Jones' is a bit of an affliction. 

Everyone should be paying their fair share of tax! Those of modest means and the wealthy.
They should but this is much bigger than tax collection.
There is going to be massive change and certain people are going to lose out.
The early 1980s were the same
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: general_lee on November 14, 2019, 12:35:09 PM
If McDonalds raise their wages. What makes you think they'll start employing more staff?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on November 14, 2019, 01:25:07 PM
Anyone who can pay less tax, will. Dont the government get enough off ordinary people? There are ways around it, just like there are for big companies. So if they don t pay, why should ordinary folk? Look after yourself, I say.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 14, 2019, 04:00:03 PM
One issue is the amount of tax that the government waste. My tax bill between corporation, employers and my own tax liability is off the scale and then you hear about the sick leave in the civil service or some project that got the go ahead ate up a couple of million and then was abandoned. And yet our public services are an absolute mess.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Maroon Manc on November 14, 2019, 04:56:25 PM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 13, 2019, 05:51:58 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on November 13, 2019, 05:02:11 PM
2 million people in the UK employed on the minimum wage, don't know how many of those are on full time hours though.

I assume most will be on some sort of state support such as Universal Credit or tax credits

Hard to know without having more access to figures, I'm assuming that includes a lot of part time workers who don't work the required 30 hours a week or are under 25 which you need to claim. If you work a full 37.5 hours week on minimum wage you'd clear £1200 a month which even in a city like Manchester would allow you to live a decent standard of living albeit not a great one if you're a single person; Obviously for anyone with kids thats a completely different matter.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 14, 2019, 06:55:55 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1193618506975236096
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: BennyHarp on November 14, 2019, 08:36:39 PM
The full list of candidates standing in the 2019 General Election has been announced. There are 102 candidates, which is down from 109 standing in the 2017 General Election.

The candidates are arranged in alphabetical order, by surname

Belfast East
Naomi Long (Alliance)
Carl McClean (UUP)
Gavin Robinson (DUP)

Belfast North
Nigel Dodds (DUP)
John Finucane (Sinn Féin)
Nuala McAllister (Alliance)

Belfast South
Paula Bradshaw (Alliance)
Claire Hanna (SDLP)
Michael Henderson (UUP)
Emma Little-Pengelly (DUP)
Chris McHugh (Aontú)

Belfast West
Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit)
Monica Digney (Aontú)
Paul Doherty (SDLP)
Donnamarie Higgins (Alliance)
Paul Maskey (Sinn Féin)
Frank McCoubrey (DUP)

East Antrim
Steve Aiken (UUP)
Danny Donnelly (Alliance)
Oliver McMullan (Sinn Féin)
Angela Mulholland (SDLP)
Philip Randle (Green Party)
Aaron Rankin (NI Conservative Party)
Sammy Wilson (DUP)

East Londonderry
Gregory Campbell (DUP)
Richard Holmes (UUP)
Cara Hunter (SDLP)
Chris McCaw (Alliance)
Seán McNicholl (Aontú)
Dermot Nicholl (Sinn Féin)

Fermanagh and South Tyrone
Matthew Beaumont (Alliance)
Tom Elliott (UUP)
Adam Gannon (SDLP)
Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin)
Caroline Wheeler (Independent Labour)

Foyle
Colum Eastwood (SDLP)
Rachael Ferguson (Alliance)
Darren Guy (UUP)
Shaun Harkin (People Before Profit)
Elisha McCallion (Sinn Féin)
Anne McCloskey (Aontú)
Gary Middleton (DUP)

Lagan Valley
Robbie Butler (UUP)
Jeffrey Donaldson (DUP)
Sorcha Eastwood (Alliance)
Ally Haydock (SDLP)
Gary Hynds (NI Conservative Party)
Alan Love (UKIP)
Gary McCleave (Sinn Féin)

Mid Ulster
Mel Boyle (Alliance)
Keith Buchanan (DUP)
Denise Johnston (SDLP)
Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin)
Conor Rafferty (Independent)
Neil Richardson (UUP)

Newry and Armagh
Mickey Brady (Sinn Féin)
Pete Byrne (SDLP)
Jackie Coade (Alliance)
William Irvin (DUP)
Martin Kelly (Aontú)
Sam Nicholson (UUP)

North Antrim
Margaret McKillop (SDLP)
Cara McShane (Sinn Féin)
Patricia O'Lynn (Alliance)
Ian Paisley (DUP)
Stephen Palmer (Independent)
Robin Swann (UUP)

North Down
Alan Chambers (UUP)
Alex Easton (DUP)
Stephen Farry (Alliance)
Matthew Robinson (NI Conservative Party)

South Antrim
John Blair (Alliance)
Paul Girvan (DUP)
Declan Kearney (Sinn Féin)
Danny Kinahan (UUP)
Roisin Lynch (SDLP)

South Down
Paul Brady (Aontú)
Patrick Brown (Alliance)
Glyn Hanna (DUP)
Chris Hazzard (Sinn Féin)
Jill McAuley (UUP)
Michael Savage (SDLP)

Strangford
Grant Abraham (NI Conservative Party)
Kellie Armstrong (Alliance)
Joe Boyle (SDLP)
Ryan Carlin (Sinn Féin)
Maurice McCartney (Green Party)
Jim Shannon (DUP)
Philip Geoffrey (UUP)
Robert Stephenson (UKIP)

Upper Bann
Doug Beattie (UUP)
Delores Kelly (SDLP)
Carla Lockhart (DUP)
John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin)
Eóin Tennyson (Alliance)

West Tyrone
Órfhlaith Begley (Sinn Féin)
Thomas Buchanan (DUP)
Stephen Donnelly (Alliance)
Susan Glass (Green Party)
James Hope (Aontú)
Daniel McCrossan (SDLP)
Andy McKane (UUP)
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 14, 2019, 08:57:52 PM
Foyle and S Belfast to SDLP
N Down to DUP

I think fear is being whipped up all over by Unionists and they'll come out in droves to secure N and E Belfast to leave the DUP at the same amount of seats and Sinn Fein to lose one in Foyle.

Yeah they'll lose S Belfast but that was only a bonus from last time they'll never win it again.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 14, 2019, 09:14:31 PM
Aye....DUP win North Down & then they parachute their South Belfast loser back into Stormont, where she will be near her beloved husband.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: armaghniac on November 14, 2019, 09:34:19 PM
Poll, taken before Hermon withdrew. With perhaps one-third of her vote going to Alliance, unionists are only at about 40% in total even if they do turn out. 

Alliance Party    15%
DUP    26%
Green Party    1%
I prefer not to say    0%
None - I plan not to vote/I will spoil my vote    2%
"Other eg Independents, NI Cons, Workers Party etc. "   3%
People Before Profit (PBP)    1%
SDLP    13%
Sinn Fein    22%
Sylvia Hermon - Independent (North Down only)    3%
TUV    1%
Undecided - But plan to vote/Prefer not to say    5%
UUP    8%
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 14, 2019, 11:29:55 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 14, 2019, 08:57:52 PM
Foyle and S Belfast to SDLP
N Down to DUP

I think fear is being whipped up all over by Unionists and they'll come out in droves to secure N and E Belfast to leave the DUP at the same amount of seats and Sinn Fein to lose one in Foyle.

Yeah they'll lose S Belfast but that was only a bonus from last time they'll never win it again.

Think North Belfast will be really close, too close to call in fact. Dodds started out as favourite but Finucane has played a wily game so far by largely staying out of the green v orange and making it about the DUPs record on Brexit. The DUP in the other hand have beat the Lambeg drum and played to a loyalist base.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: red hander on November 14, 2019, 11:48:57 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 14, 2019, 09:14:31 PM
Aye....DUP win North Down & then they parachute their South Belfast loser back into Stormont, where she will be near her beloved husband.

Doesn't matter, Stormont is finished, and so is the DUP bike. Paisley will have to find somebody else to hang out of in Westminster. Pity Kate Hoey is gone, she'd have been right up his street, the odious crone.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: omaghjoe on November 15, 2019, 04:04:15 AM
Any chance of decimals?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 15, 2019, 08:33:31 AM
Gotta love Mark Carruthers on the View last night.

He gave Steve Aitken an awful time last night and the previous week gave Naomi Long a working and then to cap it off he goes to a panel of "political commentators" to see how the interviewee got on and the blonde woman, Fionnuala O'Connor certainly doesn't hold back on her opinions either.

If he keeps that up Michelle O'Neill and Arlene will be torn asunder.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Farrandeelin on November 15, 2019, 09:01:22 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 15, 2019, 08:33:31 AM
Gotta love Mark Carruthers on the View last night.

He gave Steve Aitken an awful time last night and the previous week gave Naomi Long a working and then to cap it off he goes to a panel of "political commentators" to see how the interviewee got on and the blonde woman, Fionnuala O'Connor certainly doesn't hold back on her opinions either.

If he keeps that up Michelle O'Neill and Arlene will be torn asunder.

I don't particularly like Michelle O'Neill
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Don Johnson on November 15, 2019, 09:33:34 AM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on November 15, 2019, 02:58:01 AM
Latest odds by constituency from Paddy Power, updated from 5th November, correct at time of this post.

* Latest odds are the rightmost published next to party & candidate
* Favourite has their odds listed in bold
* Any previous odds for a party & candidate are in light grey
* Odds for a party & candidate not yet published by PP are simply blanked ( --- ) for now
* Odds given by PP for a party in a constituency where they are not standing a candidate has been scrubbed from this list

North Belfast



   
Alliance - Nuala McAllister
DUP - Nigel Dodds
Sinn Fein - John Finucane
66/1
4/6 4/5
Eve 5/6

East Belfast



   
Alliance - Naomi Long
DUP - Gavin Robinson
UUP - Carl McClean
5/4
8/13 4/9
50/1

South Belfast



   
Alliance - Paula Bradshaw
Aontú - Chris McHugh
DUP - Emma Little-Pengelly
SDLP - Claire Hanna
UUP - Michael Henderson
7/2
---
6/1 5/1
2/9
125/1

West Belfast



   
Alliance - Donnamarie Higgins
Aontú - Monica Digney
DUP - Frank McCoubrey
PBP - Gerry Carroll
SDLP - Paul Doherty
Sinn Fein - Paul Maskey
100/1
---
100/1
---
100/1
1/200

East Antrim



   
Alliance - Danny Donnelly
Conservatives (NI) - Aaron Rankin
DUP - Sammy Wilson
Greens (NI) - Philip Randle
SDLP - Angela Mulhollan
Sinn Fein - Oliver McMullan
UUP - Steve Aiken
33/1
100/1
1/200
100/1
66/1
66/1
66/1

East Derry (aka East Londonderry)



   
Alliance - Chris McCaw
Aontú - Sean McNicholl
DUP - Gregory Campbell
SDLP - Cara Hunter
Sinn Fein - Dermot Nicholl
UUP - Richard Holmes
100/1
---
1/100
66/1
66/1
100/1

Fermanagh & South Tyrone



   
Alliance - Matthew Beaumont
SDLP - Adam Gannon
Sinn Fein - Michelle Gildernew
UUP - Tom Elliott
Independent - Caroline Wheeler
100/1
100/1
8/15 1/4
11/8 5/2
---

Foyle



   
Alliance - Rachael Ferguson
Aontú - Anne McCloskey
DUP - Gary Middleton
PBP - Shaun Harkin
SDLP - Colum Eastwood
Sinn Fein - Elisha McCallion
UUP - Darren Guy
100/1
---
100/1
---
4/6 1/4
11/10 5/2
---

Lagan Valley



   
Alliance - Sorcha Eastwood
Conservatives (NI) - Gary Hynds
DUP - Jeffrey Donaldson
SDLP - Ally Haydock
Sinn Fein - Gary McCleave
UKIP - Alan Love
UUP - Robbie Butler
20/1
100/1
1/200
100/1
100/1
---
100/1 50/1

Mid Ulster



   
Alliance - Mel Boyle
DUP - Keith Buchanan
SDLP - Denise Johnson
Sinn Fein - Francie Molloy
UUP - Neil Richardson
Independent - Conor Rafferty
100/1
33/1
100/1
1/100
100/1
---

Newry & Armagh



   
Alliance - Jackie Coade
Aontú - Martin Kelly
DUP - William Irwin
SDLP - Peter Byrne
Sinn Fein - Mickey Brady
UUP - Sam Nicholson
100/1
---
33/1
66/1
1/100
100/1

North Antrim



   
Alliance - Patricia O'Lynn
DUP - Ian Paisley
SDLP - Margaret Anne McKillop
Sinn Fein - Cara McShane
UUP - Robin Swann
Independent - Stephen Palmer
66/1
1/200
100/1
50/1
50/1 33/1
---

North Down



   
Alliance - Stephen Farry
Conservatives (NI) - Matthew Robinson
DUP - Alex Easton
UUP - Alan Chambers
9/4
100/1
4/9
7/1

South Antrim



   
Alliance - John Blair
DUP - Paul Girvan
SDLP - Roisin Lynch
Sinn Fein - Declan Kearney
UUP - Danny Kinahan
3/1 4/1
4/7 4/6
100/1
100/1
13/5 7/4

South Down



   
Alliance - Patrick Brown
Aontú - Paul Brady
DUP - Glyn Hanna
SDLP - Michael Savage
Sinn Fein - Chris Hazzard
UUP - Jill Macauley
100/1 60/1
---
66/1
23/10 3/1
1/4 1/5
100/1

Strangford



   
Alliance - Kellie Armstrong
Conservatives (NI) - Grant Abraham
DUP - Jim Shannon
Greens (NI) - Martin Macartney
SDLP - Joe Boyle
Sinn Fein - Ryan Carlin
UKIP - Robert Stephenson
UUP - Philip Smith
20/1
---
1/200 1/50
---
100/1 20/1
100/1
---
100/1

Upper Bann



   
Alliance - Eóin Tennyson
DUP - Carla Lockhart
SDLP - Dolores Kelly
Sinn Fein - John O'Dowd
UUP - Doug Beattie
100/1
1/100 1/7
100/1
33/1 15/2
50/1 11/2

West Tyrone



   
Alliance - Stephen Donnelly
Aontú - James Hope
DUP - Thomas Buchanan
Greens (NI) - Susan Glass
SDLP - Daniel McCrossan
Sinn Fein - Órfhlaith Begley
UUP - Andy McKane
100/1
---
50/1
---
66/1
1/200
66/1

Finucane was actually 7/5 on Paddy Power when they first opened their markets.

SDLP were 4/7 at the start for South Belfast as well, though that was before SF agreed to withdraw.

Naomi Long was 6/4 at the start for East Belfast too, in slightly.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 15, 2019, 10:49:48 AM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/11/14/labours-migration-blindspot-has-lost-working-class/

However, this poll brings warnings for the Tories too. Their lead over Labour is just over half what it was four weeks out from the 2017 Election. Most of the underlying factors, like keeping Britain's streets safe and mending the divisions in the country, are in the Tories' favour, but the electoral maths mean that victory is still uncertain.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Maroon Manc on November 15, 2019, 12:38:31 PM
Labour has promised to give every home and business in the UK free full-fibre broadband by 2030, if it wins the general election.

Another crackpot idea from Corbyn.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RedHand88 on November 15, 2019, 12:55:50 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on November 15, 2019, 12:38:31 PM
Labour has promised to give every home and business in the UK free full-fibre broadband by 2030, if it wins the general election.

Another crackpot idea from Corbyn.

The idea that digging up every country lane to run cables is better than using satellite broadband is absolute beggars belief.

Corbyn is unelectable.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 15, 2019, 01:19:49 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on November 15, 2019, 12:55:50 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on November 15, 2019, 12:38:31 PM
Labour has promised to give every home and business in the UK free full-fibre broadband by 2030, if it wins the general election.

Another crackpot idea from Corbyn.

The idea that digging up every country lane to run cables is better than using satellite broadband is absolute beggars belief.

Corbyn is unelectable.

Fibre to the street I think its called and then twisted pair to your home. Can't see why anyone would need gigabit to their home all the same, 500M+ is madness.

BT are already structured in such a way (in GB anyway) where Openreach look after the infrastructure and BT apply the services over that.

Nationalising Openreach makes sense in some ways as currently there's a propensity for Openreach not to bother with some rural areas due to their perceived lack of uptake and I've been on the receiving end of their intransigence even when there's a fibre cabinet less than 100 metres from my front door and the hoors still won't make the investment to connect me and a dozen of my neighbours north of the cabinet, yet another neighbour south of that cabinet is getting 30M plus. I get 3 to 4 M at best.

BT and Openreach are historically renowned for being very slow to invest in new technologies and instead ring every last penny out of their current infrastructure and in doing so hold up the whole UK backbone. They are pissed off with not being allowed to install Huawei as in the telecoms world its cheap shit even though its improved immeasurably since i was involved in the telecoms world.

Corbyn putting a rocket up their arse will be a good thing for everybody.


Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 15, 2019, 01:35:51 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 14, 2019, 01:25:07 PM
Anyone who can pay less tax, will. Dont the government get enough off ordinary people? There are ways around it, just like there are for big companies. So if they don t pay, why should ordinary folk? Look after yourself, I say.

What are consequences for those that can't look after themselves? Are they just collateral damage?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 15, 2019, 01:49:30 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on November 15, 2019, 12:55:50 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on November 15, 2019, 12:38:31 PM
Labour has promised to give every home and business in the UK free full-fibre broadband by 2030, if it wins the general election.

Another crackpot idea from Corbyn.

The idea that digging up every country lane to run cables is better than using satellite broadband is absolute beggars belief.

Corbyn is unelectable.

Is this the proposal?

I think it's one where you need to see the full detail
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 15, 2019, 02:11:03 PM
The figures being used by the Tories in this campaign are incredible. Are we in a post truth era where there no consequences for bare faced lies.

Bojo has repeatedly claimed to have recruited 20,000 police officers. He has recruited none. He has claimed to have met some of these officers conveniently overlooking the fact that they don't actually exist.

Sunday's papers were full of the the £1.2 trillion that Labour would add to National Debt. The sums behind that were staggering. Haw Javid kept a straight face on Marr was a feat of some significance. He should have been on Britain's Got Talent

Immigration today and no mention that 20% of immigrants are now not fro EU

Labour's reform of Ofsted was portrayed as the abolition of the means of stopping children being bullied.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Mikhail Prokhorov on November 15, 2019, 02:43:14 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 15, 2019, 01:19:49 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on November 15, 2019, 12:55:50 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on November 15, 2019, 12:38:31 PM
Labour has promised to give every home and business in the UK free full-fibre broadband by 2030, if it wins the general election.

Another crackpot idea from Corbyn.

The idea that digging up every country lane to run cables is better than using satellite broadband is absolute beggars belief.

Corbyn is unelectable.

Fibre to the street I think its called and then twisted pair to your home. Can't see why anyone would need gigabit to their home all the same, 500M+ is madness.

BT are already structured in such a way (in GB anyway) where Openreach look after the infrastructure and BT apply the services over that.

Nationalising Openreach makes sense in some ways as currently there's a propensity for Openreach not to bother with some rural areas due to their perceived lack of uptake and I've been on the receiving end of their intransigence even when there's a fibre cabinet less than 100 metres from my front door and the hoors still won't make the investment to connect me and a dozen of my neighbours north of the cabinet, yet another neighbour south of that cabinet is getting 30M plus. I get 3 to 4 M at best.

BT and Openreach are historically renowned for being very slow to invest in new technologies and instead ring every last penny out of their current infrastructure and in doing so hold up the whole UK backbone. They are pissed off with not being allowed to install Huawei as in the telecoms world its cheap shit even though its improved immeasurably since i was involved in the telecoms world.

Corbyn putting a rocket up their arse will be a good thing for everybody.

free broadband is a great idea, the current system is a complete money grab, one house pays 10 quid a month as a new customer, the next door is paying 40  ???. people not savvy enough to keep changing provider get ripped off, esp the elderly, it's a disgrace
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: magpie seanie on November 15, 2019, 03:21:30 PM
I can confirm that Fibre from the cabinet is actually a thing here in the Republic. I've been round the houses on it!!! In the end I got mobile broadband which is perfectly fine. Fibre to the home expected any time now  ::) so we'll see when that apprives what the options are.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 15, 2019, 04:03:25 PM
Corbyn wants to give everyone free broadband and pay them the same money for working less hours...

What a horrible bastard I vote Boris!!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on November 15, 2019, 04:38:40 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 15, 2019, 04:03:25 PM
Corbyn wants to give everyone free broadband and pay them the same money for working less hours...

What a horrible b**tard I vote Boris!!

It's some money tree he has found
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 15, 2019, 04:40:05 PM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 15, 2019, 04:38:40 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 15, 2019, 04:03:25 PM
Corbyn wants to give everyone free broadband and pay them the same money for working less hours...

What a horrible b**tard I vote Boris!!

It's some money tree he has found

I think it's about time the UK Government started spending they've been hoarding for long enough. . . plenty of 'fiscal headroom' and borrowing couldn't be cheaper at the minute!!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 15, 2019, 05:24:23 PM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 15, 2019, 04:38:40 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 15, 2019, 04:03:25 PM
Corbyn wants to give everyone free broadband and pay them the same money for working less hours...

What a horrible b**tard I vote Boris!!

It's some money tree he has found
It's the super rich. They have loads of money. Labour can offer more than the Tories because of this
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 15, 2019, 05:26:43 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/nov/15/general-election-corbyn-talks-free-broadband-as-johnson-launches-campaign-bus-live-news

Johnson has now finished.
It was only a very short stump speech, but it did mark an escalation in campaign rhetoric. Some of what he was saying about Labour was even more extreme, and questionable, than what he has said in the past.

Johnson says he was not allowed to talk about Labour's plans in his BBC appearances his morning. (The presenters tried to get him to focus on Conservative plans, not just on attacking Labour.)
But he says now he can talk about Labour.
Labour's plans are terrifying, he says.
He repeats his claims (which Labour denies) that Labour would hold two referendums next year.
He claims that Labour is opposed to home ownership.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on November 15, 2019, 05:43:58 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 15, 2019, 05:24:23 PM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 15, 2019, 04:38:40 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 15, 2019, 04:03:25 PM
Corbyn wants to give everyone free broadband and pay them the same money for working less hours...

What a horrible b**tard I vote Boris!!

It's some money tree he has found
It's the super rich. They have loads of money. Labour can offer more than the Tories because of this

Anyone with any expertise on the matter has said its impossible for many reasons and "tax the rich/companies" wouldn't come close to paying for it.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Tony Baloney on November 15, 2019, 05:55:33 PM
Corbyn talks some shite. The more fantastical his economic giveaways seem, the less people will trust him.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 15, 2019, 06:52:35 PM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 15, 2019, 05:43:58 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 15, 2019, 05:24:23 PM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 15, 2019, 04:38:40 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 15, 2019, 04:03:25 PM
Corbyn wants to give everyone free broadband and pay them the same money for working less hours...

What a horrible b**tard I vote Boris!!

It's some money tree he has found
It's the super rich. They have loads of money. Labour can offer more than the Tories because of this

Anyone with any expertise on the matter has said its impossible for many reasons and "tax the rich/companies" wouldn't come close to paying for it.
He could reverse corporation tax cuts, apply stamp duty to derivatives trading, close tax loopholes or increase taxes above 80K , for example. The means are there.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on November 15, 2019, 06:55:25 PM
Looks like our  6 Cos. friends will be getting another Election in January ;D
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 15, 2019, 07:17:20 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 15, 2019, 06:55:25 PM
Looks like our  6 Cos. friends will be getting another Election in January ;D

It's in legislation, as I have already said on here - the latest one being 13 January.  It's  been put back & put back again. You cannot keep on extending the deadline - at some stage you gotta call a poll.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: lurganblue on November 16, 2019, 08:32:16 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 15, 2019, 04:38:40 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 15, 2019, 04:03:25 PM
Corbyn wants to give everyone free broadband and pay them the same money for working less hours...

What a horrible b**tard I vote Boris!!

It's some money tree he has found

Doesn't matter.  Brexit has shown that you can throw out as many lies as you want and then deal with them once you have achieved the desired result.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 16, 2019, 09:12:55 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on November 15, 2019, 05:55:33 PM
Corbyn talks some shite. The more fantastical his economic giveaways seem, the less people will trust him.

Name the giveaway and tell us your problem with it.

I'm awaiting detail on the broadband proposal. But there is nothing I've heard of actual policy that is anything other than sensible.

Th NHS spending looks welcome.
The tax policy to fund it looks fair and workable
The education changes (despite the Tory lies re Ofsted) are uncontentious
The Brexit proposal is the only sensible one on offer in this election
The rail infrastructure nationalisation and water nationalisation are needed. The current model cannot deliver the long term investment and the public purse is having to sort out the problems after private dividends are paid.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 16, 2019, 10:55:40 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 16, 2019, 09:12:55 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on November 15, 2019, 05:55:33 PM
Corbyn talks some shite. The more fantastical his economic giveaways seem, the less people will trust him.

Name the giveaway and tell us your problem with it.

I'm awaiting detail on the broadband proposal. But there is nothing I've heard of actual policy that is anything other than sensible.

Th NHS spending looks welcome.
The tax policy to fund it looks fair and workable
The education changes (despite the Tory lies re Ofsted) are uncontentious
The Brexit proposal is the only sensible one on offer in this election
The rail infrastructure nationalisation and water nationalisation are needed. The current model cannot deliver the long term investment and the public purse is having to sort out the problems after private dividends are paid.
The tory spin on Labour's proposals do not make sense. Johnson calls the boardband plan "terrifying". Meanwhile the Tories are offering a Brexit deal that will cost 8% of GDP. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot. 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 16, 2019, 10:58:02 AM
Quote from: lurganblue on November 16, 2019, 08:32:16 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 15, 2019, 04:38:40 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 15, 2019, 04:03:25 PM
Corbyn wants to give everyone free broadband and pay them the same money for working less hours...

What a horrible b**tard I vote Boris!!

It's some money tree he has found

Doesn't matter.  Brexit has shown that you can throw out as many lies as you want and then deal with them once you have achieved the desired result.
The election is Brexit vs Remain

https://twitter.com/theJeremyVine/status/1195613856594366464
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 16, 2019, 12:19:51 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 16, 2019, 10:58:02 AM
Quote from: lurganblue on November 16, 2019, 08:32:16 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 15, 2019, 04:38:40 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 15, 2019, 04:03:25 PM
Corbyn wants to give everyone free broadband and pay them the same money for working less hours...

What a horrible b**tard I vote Boris!!

It's some money tree he has found

Doesn't matter.  Brexit has shown that you can throw out as many lies as you want and then deal with them once you have achieved the desired result.
The election is Brexit vs Remain

https://twitter.com/theJeremyVine/status/1195613856594366464

The broad thrust of this is bang on but there a couple of little extra dynamics that have to be layered on top.

Number 1 if there was only 2 candidates in each constituency - 1 representing Leave (which there very nearly is) and 1 representing Remain (which there isn't at all) then Leave win a landslide with roughly 50% of the votes. Therefore every leave seat that votes Labour is critical. Every seat that Labour retains with an amalgam of Remain and Leave votes is key. Lib Dems chance of winning in a majority of these seats is zero.
Secondly as Mr Curtice says the Remain parties are in favour of a second referendum but the Liberal Democrat's are campaigning on the basis that they are against a second referendum. The Greens and Plaid are in favour of a second referendum but in a pact with a party that says it isn't.

If we get to the other of this and BoJo hasn't got a majority the Lib Dem mandate is to not have a second referendum, not negotiate a Leave option to put down in a referendum and to not do a deal with Labour. Is the LD proposal "Vote for us because you can rely on us not to do what we said we were going to do"??
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 16, 2019, 02:50:12 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 16, 2019, 12:19:51 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 16, 2019, 10:58:02 AM
Quote from: lurganblue on November 16, 2019, 08:32:16 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 15, 2019, 04:38:40 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 15, 2019, 04:03:25 PM
Corbyn wants to give everyone free broadband and pay them the same money for working less hours...

What a horrible b**tard I vote Boris!!

It's some money tree he has found

Doesn't matter.  Brexit has shown that you can throw out as many lies as you want and then deal with them once you have achieved the desired result.
The election is Brexit vs Remain

https://twitter.com/theJeremyVine/status/1195613856594366464

The broad thrust of this is bang on but there a couple of little extra dynamics that have to be layered on top.

Number 1 if there was only 2 candidates in each constituency - 1 representing Leave (which there very nearly is) and 1 representing Remain (which there isn't at all) then Leave win a landslide with roughly 50% of the votes. Therefore every leave seat that votes Labour is critical. Every seat that Labour retains with an amalgam of Remain and Leave votes is key. Lib Dems chance of winning in a majority of these seats is zero.
Secondly as Mr Curtice says the Remain parties are in favour of a second referendum but the Liberal Democrat's are campaigning on the basis that they are against a second referendum. The Greens and Plaid are in favour of a second referendum but in a pact with a party that says it isn't.

If we get to the other of this and BoJo hasn't got a majority the Lib Dem mandate is to not have a second referendum, not negotiate a Leave option to put down in a referendum and to not do a deal with Labour. Is the LD proposal "Vote for us because you can rely on us not to do what we said we were going to do"??
In GB the dynamics under FPTP with 4 contenders are extremely complex
A lot will depend on turnout.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: magpie seanie on November 18, 2019, 09:43:14 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 16, 2019, 12:19:51 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 16, 2019, 10:58:02 AM
Quote from: lurganblue on November 16, 2019, 08:32:16 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 15, 2019, 04:38:40 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 15, 2019, 04:03:25 PM
Corbyn wants to give everyone free broadband and pay them the same money for working less hours...

What a horrible b**tard I vote Boris!!

It's some money tree he has found

Doesn't matter.  Brexit has shown that you can throw out as many lies as you want and then deal with them once you have achieved the desired result.
The election is Brexit vs Remain

https://twitter.com/theJeremyVine/status/1195613856594366464

The broad thrust of this is bang on but there a couple of little extra dynamics that have to be layered on top.

Number 1 if there was only 2 candidates in each constituency - 1 representing Leave (which there very nearly is) and 1 representing Remain (which there isn't at all) then Leave win a landslide with roughly 50% of the votes. Therefore every leave seat that votes Labour is critical. Every seat that Labour retains with an amalgam of Remain and Leave votes is key. Lib Dems chance of winning in a majority of these seats is zero.
Secondly as Mr Curtice says the Remain parties are in favour of a second referendum but the Liberal Democrat's are campaigning on the basis that they are against a second referendum. The Greens and Plaid are in favour of a second referendum but in a pact with a party that says it isn't.

If we get to the other of this and BoJo hasn't got a majority the Lib Dem mandate is to not have a second referendum, not negotiate a Leave option to put down in a referendum and to not do a deal with Labour. Is the LD proposal "Vote for us because you can rely on us not to do what we said we were going to do"??

The Lib Dems position on a lot of things is laughable really. They're Tory lite. Only differences are Brexit and on social issues. Fiscally they're very conservative which I think a lot of people don't realise.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 18, 2019, 11:55:11 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 16, 2019, 10:58:02 AM
Quote from: lurganblue on November 16, 2019, 08:32:16 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 15, 2019, 04:38:40 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 15, 2019, 04:03:25 PM
Corbyn wants to give everyone free broadband and pay them the same money for working less hours...

What a horrible b**tard I vote Boris!!

It's some money tree he has found

Doesn't matter.  Brexit has shown that you can throw out as many lies as you want and then deal with them once you have achieved the desired result.
The election is Brexit vs Remain

https://twitter.com/theJeremyVine/status/1195613856594366464

In a NI context I can't for the life of me understand why anyone who supports a 2nd referendum would vote SF?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 18, 2019, 12:22:53 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 18, 2019, 11:55:11 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 16, 2019, 10:58:02 AM
Quote from: lurganblue on November 16, 2019, 08:32:16 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 15, 2019, 04:38:40 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 15, 2019, 04:03:25 PM
Corbyn wants to give everyone free broadband and pay them the same money for working less hours...

What a horrible b**tard I vote Boris!!

It's some money tree he has found

Doesn't matter.  Brexit has shown that you can throw out as many lies as you want and then deal with them once you have achieved the desired result.
The election is Brexit vs Remain

https://twitter.com/theJeremyVine/status/1195613856594366464

In a NI context I can't for the life of me understand why anyone who supports a 2nd referendum would vote SF?

I can't understand why anyone would vote SF in a General Election at all regardless of their position on Brexit or anything else!!

It's basically a case of we don't want themmuns and the SDLP didn't support our hunger strikers and after that there isn't much for them to hang their hat on!!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on November 18, 2019, 01:01:33 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 18, 2019, 11:55:11 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 16, 2019, 10:58:02 AM
Quote from: lurganblue on November 16, 2019, 08:32:16 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 15, 2019, 04:38:40 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 15, 2019, 04:03:25 PM
Corbyn wants to give everyone free broadband and pay them the same money for working less hours...

What a horrible b**tard I vote Boris!!

It's some money tree he has found

Doesn't matter.  Brexit has shown that you can throw out as many lies as you want and then deal with them once you have achieved the desired result.
The election is Brexit vs Remain

https://twitter.com/theJeremyVine/status/1195613856594366464

In a NI context I can't for the life of me understand why anyone who supports a 2nd referendum would vote SF?

I can't recall SF looking a referendum on Abortion in the North. They were happy for the government of the UK to push that through. That same government they don't participate in or want any part of.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Owenmoresider on November 18, 2019, 01:05:00 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 18, 2019, 01:01:33 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 18, 2019, 11:55:11 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 16, 2019, 10:58:02 AM
Quote from: lurganblue on November 16, 2019, 08:32:16 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 15, 2019, 04:38:40 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 15, 2019, 04:03:25 PM
Corbyn wants to give everyone free broadband and pay them the same money for working less hours...

What a horrible b**tard I vote Boris!!

It's some money tree he has found

Doesn't matter.  Brexit has shown that you can throw out as many lies as you want and then deal with them once you have achieved the desired result.
The election is Brexit vs Remain

https://twitter.com/theJeremyVine/status/1195613856594366464

In a NI context I can't for the life of me understand why anyone who supports a 2nd referendum would vote SF?

I can't recall SF looking a referendum on Abortion in the North. They were happy for the government of the UK to push that through. That same government they don't participate in or want any part of.
Westminster rule suited them then alright. Hypocrites. And the SNP cheerleading for it too.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 18, 2019, 02:33:07 PM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/11/17/dismal-choice-election-disaster-catastrophe

"We have the unrealistic flag-waving optimism of Boris Johnson, determined to take us out of Europe on a wing and a prayer

From a business perspective, the choice is one of the most dismal of the post-war age. The Conservatives pass muster in some regards, though given the record of the past 10 years, and in particular the failure to address long-standing sores, such as business rates and the apprenticeship levy, even the Tories do not obviously qualify as an overtly pro-enterprise party.
But to be running up the debt at the rate now contemplated at the same time as ditching the world's biggest free trade zone in favour of an unknown blue yonder is not a guaranteed recipe for economic success. The great bulk of internationally exposed businesses believe that the sort of hard Brexit envisaged under Boris Johnson's deal will be economically harmful.
Those who see Brexit as a means to an end delude themselves if they think it will automatically cure Britain's long-standing weaknesses in productivity and investment. The challenge will be to stop it from making them even worse."
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Windmill abu on November 19, 2019, 12:34:08 AM
Quote from: screenexile on November 18, 2019, 12:22:53 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 18, 2019, 11:55:11 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 16, 2019, 10:58:02 AM
Quote from: lurganblue on November 16, 2019, 08:32:16 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 15, 2019, 04:38:40 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 15, 2019, 04:03:25 PM
Corbyn wants to give everyone free broadband and pay them the same money for working less hours...

What a horrible b**tard I vote Boris!!

It's some money tree he has found

Doesn't matter.  Brexit has shown that you can throw out as many lies as you want and then deal with them once you have achieved the desired result.
The election is Brexit vs Remain

https://twitter.com/theJeremyVine/status/1195613856594366464

In a NI context I can't for the life of me understand why anyone who supports a 2nd referendum would vote SF?

I can't understand why anyone would vote SF in a General Election at all regardless of their position on Brexit or anything else!!

It's basically a case of we don't want themmuns and the SDLP didn't support our hunger strikers and after that there isn't much for them to hang their hat on!!

In Mid Ulster the SDLP were happy to split the nationalist vote and allow Billy Wright cheerleader, Wilie MCCrea too represent them. The SDLP will never represent the majority of nationalists again in Mid Ulster.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on November 19, 2019, 12:50:20 AM
Mid Ulster/Rev Willie McCrea......why blame the SDLP.....why didn't SF step aside if they feared for the DUPer taking the seat.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Windmill abu on November 19, 2019, 01:27:23 AM
Quote from: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on November 19, 2019, 12:50:20 AM
Mid Ulster/Rev Willie McCrea......why blame the SDLP.....why didn't SF step aside if they feared for the DUPer taking the seat.
The SDLP didn't fear the DUP taking the seat. They preferred the bigot MCCrea rather than Sinn Fein.

The SDLP had been standing in Mid Ulster since 1974, before SF ever stood against them, without coming close to winning.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 19, 2019, 08:39:32 AM
Quote from: Windmill abu on November 19, 2019, 12:34:08 AM
Quote from: screenexile on November 18, 2019, 12:22:53 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 18, 2019, 11:55:11 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 16, 2019, 10:58:02 AM
Quote from: lurganblue on November 16, 2019, 08:32:16 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 15, 2019, 04:38:40 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 15, 2019, 04:03:25 PM
Corbyn wants to give everyone free broadband and pay them the same money for working less hours...

What a horrible b**tard I vote Boris!!

It's some money tree he has found

Doesn't matter.  Brexit has shown that you can throw out as many lies as you want and then deal with them once you have achieved the desired result.
The election is Brexit vs Remain

https://twitter.com/theJeremyVine/status/1195613856594366464

In a NI context I can't for the life of me understand why anyone who supports a 2nd referendum would vote SF?

I can't understand why anyone would vote SF in a General Election at all regardless of their position on Brexit or anything else!!

It's basically a case of we don't want themmuns and the SDLP didn't support our hunger strikers and after that there isn't much for them to hang their hat on!!

In Mid Ulster the SDLP were happy to split the nationalist vote and allow Billy Wright cheerleader, Wilie MCCrea too represent them. The SDLP will never represent the majority of nationalists again in Mid Ulster.
Never say never
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 19, 2019, 08:50:03 AM
Quote from: Windmill abu on November 19, 2019, 01:27:23 AM
Quote from: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on November 19, 2019, 12:50:20 AM
Mid Ulster/Rev Willie McCrea......why blame the SDLP.....why didn't SF step aside if they feared for the DUPer taking the seat.
The SDLP didn't fear the DUP taking the seat. They preferred the bigot MCCrea rather than Sinn Fein.

The SDLP had been standing in Mid Ulster since 1974, before SF ever stood against them, without coming close to winning.

Political party contests election shocker. Typical SF. Always everyone else fault.
Vote for SF. Even though they can't be bother to go and vote for you in the very place they want you to vote them into.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 19, 2019, 01:50:14 PM
Loyalists appear to be running the DUP's election campaign for them this time around, there is a notable ramping up of rhetoric, mud slinging and divisive politics which is almost constant on a daily basis. Most notably in the North Belfast constituency where the DUP have done nothing to distance themselves from loyalists who are helping to drive their campaign. Pretending that they (the DUP) didn't know about the banners is one thing and now looking for selective attempted murder attempts from a generation back to be condemned. It is all in an attempt to steer the debate down to low based gutteral orange v green politics and away from their own handling of Brexit. It appears to be working very well for them so far since I have heard very little real debate about Brexit in the media. It is almost as if they played no part in the whole process since it has received very little media coverage.       
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on November 19, 2019, 02:28:11 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 19, 2019, 01:50:14 PM
. It is all in an attempt to steer the debate down to low based gutteral orange v green politics and away from their own handling of Brexit. It appears to be working very well for them so far since I have heard very little real debate about Brexit in the media.

I saw their first election video where they spoke of a vote to keep Corbyn out.   Given the bi-party nature of UK politics (due respect to Lib Dems and local parties but they need a hung parliament to partner with one of the big two) then I guess the corollary is true:  a vote for DUP is a vote for Boris.  Of course Boris will want to ram the "Surrender Act" through.

Given that I suppose it's natural for them to steer away from the topic.   Keeping themmuns out is all they have left to offer.

/Jim.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 19, 2019, 03:17:12 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 19, 2019, 01:50:14 PM
Loyalists appear to be running the DUP's election campaign for them this time around, there is a notable ramping up of rhetoric, mud slinging and divisive politics which is almost constant on a daily basis. Most notably in the North Belfast constituency where the DUP have done nothing to distance themselves from loyalists who are helping to drive their campaign. Pretending that they (the DUP) didn't know about the banners is one thing and now looking for selective attempted murder attempts from a generation back to be condemned. It is all in an attempt to steer the debate down to low based gutteral orange v green politics and away from their own handling of Brexit. It appears to be working very well for them so far since I have heard very little real debate about Brexit in the media. It is almost as if they played no part in the whole process since it has received very little media coverage.     

They are branding SDLP as republicans now and asking them if the shankill bomber is out canvassing for them too. It's got quite poisonous which is the only way they can rally the troops. Vote for us - we screwed everyone into this position but vote for us and we'll make it better. While we're there ps if you're "working class" we'll screw you over and look after our mates too but vote for us. You couldn't make it up.

It's actually irrelevant they're unionists and why more parties don't call this out I don't know. They are damaging to everyone around them bar their own cronies and that doesn't mean voters.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: armaghniac on November 19, 2019, 03:31:41 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on November 19, 2019, 03:17:12 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 19, 2019, 01:50:14 PM
Loyalists appear to be running the DUP's election campaign for them this time around, there is a notable ramping up of rhetoric, mud slinging and divisive politics which is almost constant on a daily basis. Most notably in the North Belfast constituency where the DUP have done nothing to distance themselves from loyalists who are helping to drive their campaign. Pretending that they (the DUP) didn't know about the banners is one thing and now looking for selective attempted murder attempts from a generation back to be condemned. It is all in an attempt to steer the debate down to low based gutteral orange v green politics and away from their own handling of Brexit. It appears to be working very well for them so far since I have heard very little real debate about Brexit in the media. It is almost as if they played no part in the whole process since it has received very little media coverage.     

They are branding SDLP as republicans now and asking them if the shankill bomber is out canvassing for them too. It's got quite poisonous which is the only way they can rally the troops. Vote for us - we screwed everyone into this position but vote for us and we'll make it better. While we're there ps if you're "working class" we'll screw you over and look after our mates too but vote for us. You couldn't make it up.

It's actually irrelevant they're unionists and why more parties don't call this out I don't know. They are damaging to everyone around them bar their own cronies and that doesn't mean voters.

This kind of thing is as likely to backfire on them as anything else. All it needs is for a few SDLP or Alliance type people to decide that Finucane is being hard done by and so deserves a vote and that will get him over the line. 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 19, 2019, 03:35:17 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on November 19, 2019, 03:31:41 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on November 19, 2019, 03:17:12 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 19, 2019, 01:50:14 PM
Loyalists appear to be running the DUP's election campaign for them this time around, there is a notable ramping up of rhetoric, mud slinging and divisive politics which is almost constant on a daily basis. Most notably in the North Belfast constituency where the DUP have done nothing to distance themselves from loyalists who are helping to drive their campaign. Pretending that they (the DUP) didn't know about the banners is one thing and now looking for selective attempted murder attempts from a generation back to be condemned. It is all in an attempt to steer the debate down to low based gutteral orange v green politics and away from their own handling of Brexit. It appears to be working very well for them so far since I have heard very little real debate about Brexit in the media. It is almost as if they played no part in the whole process since it has received very little media coverage.     

They are branding SDLP as republicans now and asking them if the shankill bomber is out canvassing for them too. It's got quite poisonous which is the only way they can rally the troops. Vote for us - we screwed everyone into this position but vote for us and we'll make it better. While we're there ps if you're "working class" we'll screw you over and look after our mates too but vote for us. You couldn't make it up.

It's actually irrelevant they're unionists and why more parties don't call this out I don't know. They are damaging to everyone around them bar their own cronies and that doesn't mean voters.

This kind of thing is as likely to backfire on them as anything else. All it needs is for a few SDLP or Alliance type people to decide that Finucane is being hard done by and so deserves a vote and that will get him over the line.

I think it just might backfire. Finucane is certainly more transfer friendly than Gerry Kelly. So SDLP and Alliance voters may "lend" him their votes. With SF reciprocating in SB and EB he might just do it.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on November 19, 2019, 03:50:46 PM
with the loyalist paras getting big time behind DUP, that party will easily hold East Belfast and North Down they will win rather easily.
North Belfast remains key to the DUP confidence....Dodds is arguably the biggest player in the party and he is very street wise, coming across as a serious politician and party mastermind....however Dodds has demonstrated that he is happy to get dirty with DUP accepting the loyalist para help to try and save his sea.

we know the likes of Sammy and Gregory are pure 100% bigots, Dodds has tried to present himself otherwise, this election is exposing the mask.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on November 19, 2019, 03:53:12 PM
And some folks complained when I referred to DUPUDA  ::)
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 19, 2019, 04:35:08 PM
Dodds is plenty of things but he is not stupid. He knows that he needs to lock down hard core loyalist votes in order to retain his seat. He won't be getting much if any support from middle ground voters anyway after his recent record at Westminster and on Brexit. Like most politicians, any strongly held principles he claims to have, can be compromised on easily when a loss of power and money is at stake. The Dodds campaign has been based almost entirely around attacking Finucane though, rather than championing Dodds own credentials. 

 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 19, 2019, 04:39:06 PM
He doesn't have many credentials though which is probably why he is working like this.

Motto: protect the union.

What from: brexit.

Didn't you propose Brexit in the first place: umm, protect the union...
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Milltown Row2 on November 19, 2019, 11:01:40 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 19, 2019, 03:53:12 PM
And some folks complained when I referred to DUPUDA  ::)

Because you're mimicking other the DUP.

It's never been about normal politics, why anyone believes it should be about brexit, jobs, NHS  or education here in the north clearly has no idea!

For as long as I've been alive it's never been anything other the Orange and green politics. The DUP will use every dirty trick in the book and not give a f**k about it, they've completely no shame.

And whoever votes for them deserve it. Was watching Pop goes ni the other night and the loyalist were complaining about the DUP! And how the ordinary 'loyalists' shouldn't be voting for them.. this was 1996!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Capt Pat on November 19, 2019, 11:55:09 PM
Anyone see the Johnson v Corbyn debate that was on tonight? Who won?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Ronnie on November 19, 2019, 11:57:52 PM
Score draw which is a bad result for JC.  Milltown - to reiterate your point:  I see we (NI) had the union jacks out again tonight.. not good enough from IFA
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 20, 2019, 09:13:16 AM
Quote from: Capt Pat on November 19, 2019, 11:55:09 PM
Anyone see the Johnson v Corbyn debate that was on tonight? Who won?

Pretty awful truth be told. Julie Etchingham was way out of her depth, interrupted them too many times. To many stupid, silly questions but yet felt rushed.
It suited Boris who was able to duck proper scrutiny.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: BennyHarp on November 20, 2019, 09:28:36 AM
Quote from: trailer on November 20, 2019, 09:13:16 AM
Quote from: Capt Pat on November 19, 2019, 11:55:09 PM
Anyone see the Johnson v Corbyn debate that was on tonight? Who won?

Pretty awful truth be told. Julie Etchingham was way out of her depth, interrupted them too many times. To many stupid, silly questions but yet felt rushed.
It suited Boris who was able to duck proper scrutiny.

Yeah, The concept of having a ridiculously short time frame to answer the questions was a bad idea as it enabled both to evade proper scrutiny as they knew that they would be moved on to another point. Less questions and pressing the leaders on more depth of answer would have been more effective.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: t_mac on November 20, 2019, 09:31:04 AM
Quote from: trailer on November 20, 2019, 09:13:16 AM
Quote from: Capt Pat on November 19, 2019, 11:55:09 PM
Anyone see the Johnson v Corbyn debate that was on tonight? Who won?

Pretty awful truth be told. Julie Etchingham was way out of her depth, interrupted them too many times. To many stupid, silly questions but yet felt rushed.
It suited Boris who was able to duck proper scrutiny.

What wold you give each other for Christmas FFS, she should get her P45.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: BennyHarp on November 20, 2019, 09:36:00 AM
Quote from: t_mac on November 20, 2019, 09:31:04 AM
Quote from: trailer on November 20, 2019, 09:13:16 AM
Quote from: Capt Pat on November 19, 2019, 11:55:09 PM
Anyone see the Johnson v Corbyn debate that was on tonight? Who won?

Pretty awful truth be told. Julie Etchingham was way out of her depth, interrupted them too many times. To many stupid, silly questions but yet felt rushed.
It suited Boris who was able to duck proper scrutiny.

Making them shake hands mid way trough was pretty cringeworthy too.

What wold you give each other for Christmas FFS, she should get her P45.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 20, 2019, 09:42:48 AM

Trust
NHS
Vote Tory get Trump

The Tories are vulnerable
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: tbrick18 on November 20, 2019, 10:15:00 AM
Quote from: t_mac on November 20, 2019, 09:31:04 AM
Quote from: trailer on November 20, 2019, 09:13:16 AM
Quote from: Capt Pat on November 19, 2019, 11:55:09 PM
Anyone see the Johnson v Corbyn debate that was on tonight? Who won?

Pretty awful truth be told. Julie Etchingham was way out of her depth, interrupted them too many times. To many stupid, silly questions but yet felt rushed.
It suited Boris who was able to duck proper scrutiny.

What wold you give each other for Christmas FFS, she should get her P45.

Yeah Etchingham was pretty awful alright.
I think there is no option but to have that format though. Otherwise it would just be Brexit, Brexit, Brexit....and nothing else.
Boris actually has nothing to say other than soundbites, "get Brexit Done", "Dither and delay"....no substance at all, just constant mud slinging.
JC I thought made more of an effort to discuss policy and to keep the focus on Labour rather than constantly point the finger at the opponent (though he did a little of that too with the redacted document).
Whilst there may not have been a "winner", for me it strengthened my opinion that JC is genuine and I feel I can trust that he believes what he's saying. Whereas Boris comes across as always saying whatever is the popular answer to a question regardless of whether or not it is truthful. He's dishonest and an outright liar, IMO.

The question on personal integrity was telling, Boris couldn't answer it.

The tories renaming their twitter account to FactCheckUK during the debate is one of the most obvious attempts to dupe the public I've ever seen. They have no shame in playing dirty propaganda trick.
Absolute tragedy if they are returned with a majority in my opinion, but it wouldn't surprise me with the little Englanders.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: tyrone08 on November 20, 2019, 10:31:22 AM
Quote from: tbrick18 on November 20, 2019, 10:15:00 AM
Quote from: t_mac on November 20, 2019, 09:31:04 AM
Quote from: trailer on November 20, 2019, 09:13:16 AM
Quote from: Capt Pat on November 19, 2019, 11:55:09 PM
Anyone see the Johnson v Corbyn debate that was on tonight? Who won?

Pretty awful truth be told. Julie Etchingham was way out of her depth, interrupted them too many times. To many stupid, silly questions but yet felt rushed.
It suited Boris who was able to duck proper scrutiny.

What wold you give each other for Christmas FFS, she should get her P45.

Yeah Etchingham was pretty awful alright.
I think there is no option but to have that format though. Otherwise it would just be Brexit, Brexit, Brexit....and nothing else.
Boris actually has nothing to say other than soundbites, "get Brexit Done", "Dither and delay"....no substance at all, just constant mud slinging.
JC I thought made more of an effort to discuss policy and to keep the focus on Labour rather than constantly point the finger at the opponent (though he did a little of that too with the redacted document).
Whilst there may not have been a "winner", for me it strengthened my opinion that JC is genuine and I feel I can trust that he believes what he's saying. Whereas Boris comes across as always saying whatever is the popular answer to a question regardless of whether or not it is truthful. He's dishonest and an outright liar, IMO.

The question on personal integrity was telling, Boris couldn't answer it.

The tories renaming their twitter account to FactCheckUK during the debate is one of the most obvious attempts to dupe the public I've ever seen. They have no shame in playing dirty propaganda trick.
Absolute tragedy if they are returned with a majority in my opinion, but it wouldn't surprise me with the little Englanders.

They will deserve everything they get and more if they vote for Boris. I mean anyone with an ounce of sense could tell Boris is lying. When asked about integrity and people who worked for Boris came forward and said you cant trust him it should tell you everything you need to know. In addition the tories changed their bloody twitter name to con people.

Given how thick the people in England seem to be at the minute I fully expect Boris to win.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 20, 2019, 12:50:32 PM
Quote from: tyrone08 on November 20, 2019, 10:31:22 AM
Quote from: tbrick18 on November 20, 2019, 10:15:00 AM
Quote from: t_mac on November 20, 2019, 09:31:04 AM
Quote from: trailer on November 20, 2019, 09:13:16 AM
Quote from: Capt Pat on November 19, 2019, 11:55:09 PM
Anyone see the Johnson v Corbyn debate that was on tonight? Who won?

Pretty awful truth be told. Julie Etchingham was way out of her depth, interrupted them too many times. To many stupid, silly questions but yet felt rushed.
It suited Boris who was able to duck proper scrutiny.

What wold you give each other for Christmas FFS, she should get her P45.

Yeah Etchingham was pretty awful alright.
I think there is no option but to have that format though. Otherwise it would just be Brexit, Brexit, Brexit....and nothing else.
Boris actually has nothing to say other than soundbites, "get Brexit Done", "Dither and delay"....no substance at all, just constant mud slinging.
JC I thought made more of an effort to discuss policy and to keep the focus on Labour rather than constantly point the finger at the opponent (though he did a little of that too with the redacted document).
Whilst there may not have been a "winner", for me it strengthened my opinion that JC is genuine and I feel I can trust that he believes what he's saying. Whereas Boris comes across as always saying whatever is the popular answer to a question regardless of whether or not it is truthful. He's dishonest and an outright liar, IMO.

The question on personal integrity was telling, Boris couldn't answer it.

The tories renaming their twitter account to FactCheckUK during the debate is one of the most obvious attempts to dupe the public I've ever seen. They have no shame in playing dirty propaganda trick.
Absolute tragedy if they are returned with a majority in my opinion, but it wouldn't surprise me with the little Englanders.

They will deserve everything they get and more if they vote for Boris. I mean anyone with an ounce of sense could tell Boris is lying. When asked about integrity and people who worked for Boris came forward and said you cant trust him it should tell you everything you need to know. In addition the tories changed their bloody twitter name to con people.

Given how thick the people in England seem to be at the minute I fully expect Boris to win.

People in England? We return MPs who don't go to Westminster and another bunch who believe the world is only 6000 years old. I know people in GB might make poor choices but they are certainly not on their own. What do you think the Brits and others across Europe think about us?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on November 20, 2019, 12:57:08 PM
Most of them dont think if ye at all, if they even know ye exist ;)
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 20, 2019, 01:01:34 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 20, 2019, 12:50:32 PM
Quote from: tyrone08 on November 20, 2019, 10:31:22 AM
Quote from: tbrick18 on November 20, 2019, 10:15:00 AM
Quote from: t_mac on November 20, 2019, 09:31:04 AM
Quote from: trailer on November 20, 2019, 09:13:16 AM
Quote from: Capt Pat on November 19, 2019, 11:55:09 PM
Anyone see the Johnson v Corbyn debate that was on tonight? Who won?

Pretty awful truth be told. Julie Etchingham was way out of her depth, interrupted them too many times. To many stupid, silly questions but yet felt rushed.
It suited Boris who was able to duck proper scrutiny.

What wold you give each other for Christmas FFS, she should get her P45.

Yeah Etchingham was pretty awful alright.
I think there is no option but to have that format though. Otherwise it would just be Brexit, Brexit, Brexit....and nothing else.
Boris actually has nothing to say other than soundbites, "get Brexit Done", "Dither and delay"....no substance at all, just constant mud slinging.
JC I thought made more of an effort to discuss policy and to keep the focus on Labour rather than constantly point the finger at the opponent (though he did a little of that too with the redacted document).
Whilst there may not have been a "winner", for me it strengthened my opinion that JC is genuine and I feel I can trust that he believes what he's saying. Whereas Boris comes across as always saying whatever is the popular answer to a question regardless of whether or not it is truthful. He's dishonest and an outright liar, IMO.

The question on personal integrity was telling, Boris couldn't answer it.

The tories renaming their twitter account to FactCheckUK during the debate is one of the most obvious attempts to dupe the public I've ever seen. They have no shame in playing dirty propaganda trick.
Absolute tragedy if they are returned with a majority in my opinion, but it wouldn't surprise me with the little Englanders.

They will deserve everything they get and more if they vote for Boris. I mean anyone with an ounce of sense could tell Boris is lying. When asked about integrity and people who worked for Boris came forward and said you cant trust him it should tell you everything you need to know. In addition the tories changed their bloody twitter name to con people.

Given how thick the people in England seem to be at the minute I fully expect Boris to win.

People in England? We return MPs who don't go to Westminster and another bunch who believe the world is only 6000 years old. I know people in GB might make poor choices but they are certainly not on their own. What do you think the Brits and others across Europe think about us?

What do you expect MPs to do?  Very small cog in a very big wheel.  Civil servants makes the decisions.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: magpie seanie on November 20, 2019, 01:02:21 PM
I am absolutely stunned at the reportage of the debate last night. Johnson was a complete joke. Kept repeating the same stock phrases, kept turning every question around to Brexit and constantly ignored the moderator's calls when his time was up. Crowd openly laughed at him when he had the neck to say the truth mattered.....he was just awful.

The only criticism I'd give the moderator was that when she asked Corbyn about anti-semitism in the Labour party, she should have asked the man who compared muslim women to letterboxes about islamophobia. She clearly had set times that the politicians were alloqwed to speak for and she stuck rigidly to this which I've no problem with. Corbyn at least tried to shorten his answers, Johnson seemed incapable of this as all his answers were designed to get back to his catchphrases.

To call it an even discussion is laughable. However, that doesn't particularly matter. The more ordinary people see of Corbyn the better. They'll see, like last night, he's a good, decent man who has solid thought out policies aimed at benefitting everyone and not the monstrous ogre the constant smears in the British media have him painted as. It's a monumental challenge to take on all that and the virtually unchecked streams of lies coming from the Tories but I still think Labour can do it. If they don't, it's bad news for the UK and also us here in the ROI.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 20, 2019, 01:16:14 PM
Quote from: marty34 on November 20, 2019, 01:01:34 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 20, 2019, 12:50:32 PM
Quote from: tyrone08 on November 20, 2019, 10:31:22 AM
Quote from: tbrick18 on November 20, 2019, 10:15:00 AM
Quote from: t_mac on November 20, 2019, 09:31:04 AM
Quote from: trailer on November 20, 2019, 09:13:16 AM
Quote from: Capt Pat on November 19, 2019, 11:55:09 PM
Anyone see the Johnson v Corbyn debate that was on tonight? Who won?

Pretty awful truth be told. Julie Etchingham was way out of her depth, interrupted them too many times. To many stupid, silly questions but yet felt rushed.
It suited Boris who was able to duck proper scrutiny.

What wold you give each other for Christmas FFS, she should get her P45.

Yeah Etchingham was pretty awful alright.
I think there is no option but to have that format though. Otherwise it would just be Brexit, Brexit, Brexit....and nothing else.
Boris actually has nothing to say other than soundbites, "get Brexit Done", "Dither and delay"....no substance at all, just constant mud slinging.
JC I thought made more of an effort to discuss policy and to keep the focus on Labour rather than constantly point the finger at the opponent (though he did a little of that too with the redacted document).
Whilst there may not have been a "winner", for me it strengthened my opinion that JC is genuine and I feel I can trust that he believes what he's saying. Whereas Boris comes across as always saying whatever is the popular answer to a question regardless of whether or not it is truthful. He's dishonest and an outright liar, IMO.

The question on personal integrity was telling, Boris couldn't answer it.

The tories renaming their twitter account to FactCheckUK during the debate is one of the most obvious attempts to dupe the public I've ever seen. They have no shame in playing dirty propaganda trick.
Absolute tragedy if they are returned with a majority in my opinion, but it wouldn't surprise me with the little Englanders.

They will deserve everything they get and more if they vote for Boris. I mean anyone with an ounce of sense could tell Boris is lying. When asked about integrity and people who worked for Boris came forward and said you cant trust him it should tell you everything you need to know. In addition the tories changed their bloody twitter name to con people.

Given how thick the people in England seem to be at the minute I fully expect Boris to win.

People in England? We return MPs who don't go to Westminster and another bunch who believe the world is only 6000 years old. I know people in GB might make poor choices but they are certainly not on their own. What do you think the Brits and others across Europe think about us?

What do you expect MPs to do?  Very small cog in a very big wheel.  Civil servants makes the decisions.

No they don't.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 20, 2019, 01:38:02 PM
Name me 10 fantastic MPs and why?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on November 20, 2019, 02:10:48 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 20, 2019, 09:42:48 AM

Trust
NHS
Vote Tory get Trump

The Tories are vulnerable

this election has nil to do with the NHS...in mainland UK it is all about Brexit.

the NHS is a bottomless pit and labour trying to focus this election on it is gaining no traction whatsoever.....

Thankfully a Tory majority is on the horizon, Boris can get the Brexit deal done and dusted, and then a Border Poll is accelerated.

I am sensing reading this forum, that you nordies who are supposedly united irelanders, are more castle catholics than true green and golders.........you all want a united Ireland arising from a smooth transition.........that will never happen......several of you would appear to prefer the status quo, than take the temporary suffering which would be the fallout of a positive vote for a UI.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: armaghniac on November 20, 2019, 02:29:34 PM
I think it is an impeccably nationalist position to wish for the formation of a United Ireland to be driven by Irish people and not the English.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 20, 2019, 02:32:52 PM
I don't think they're "fantastic" which is so subjective but MPs who've made significant contributions

Mark Durkan - Forced the British Gov to admit that if NI voted to unite with ROI they would be re-accepted into the EU without application process. Called out the SF and British dirty deal to give amnesty to Soldiers and Terrorists involved in the Troubles.

Aneran Bevan - Minister for Health

Parnell - Leader of Irish Nationalism

Leo Abse - Proposed Homosexual law reform

John Bercow - There's a case to be made here for how he has steered the Brexit debate

Seamus Mallon - Patten report was improved of the back of Mallon's work in the Commons

LSH - While a Unionist has fought as the lone NI Remain voice despite quite a vitriol from the DUP.

Jess Phillips
Iain Blackforth
Maidri Black

That's just off the top of my head. And you can pick holes and say they did that and this one did this and so on and so on. Such is the luxury of those on the sideline who don't have to make a stand.

No Minister is universally popular and they will have to make decisions that will make them unpopular or popular with their base. But they make decisions nonetheless and sometimes it's those unpopular decisions that we remember them for so perhaps electing MPs to go and argue in our favour isn't a bad idea. After all this is exactly what SF do in the Dail and in Brussels.

I support a United Ireland but to think it can be achieved by disengaging with the British state isn't a credible position. After all, the new Ireland will require significant support both politically and monetary from the UK Government.






Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on November 20, 2019, 02:39:30 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 20, 2019, 02:32:52 PM
I don't think they're "fantastic" which is so subjective but MPs who've made significant contributions

Mark Durkan - Forced the British Gov to admit that if NI voted to unite with ROI they would be re-accepted into the EU without application process. Called out the SF and British dirty deal to give amnesty to Soldiers and Terrorists involved in the Troubles.

Aneran Bevan - Minister for Health

Parnell - Leader of Irish Nationalism

Leo Abse - Proposed Homosexual law reform

John Bercow - There's a case to be made here for how he has steered the Brexit debate

Seamus Mallon - Patten report was improved of the back of Mallon's work in the Commons

LSH - While a Unionist has fought as the lone NI Remain voice despite quite a vitriol from the DUP.

Jess Phillips
Iain Blackforth
Maidri Black

That's just off the top of my head. And you can pick holes and say they did that and this one did this and so on and so on. Such is the luxury of those on the sideline who don't have to make a stand.

No Minister is universally popular and they will have to make decisions that will make them unpopular or popular with their base. But they make decisions nonetheless and sometimes it's those unpopular decisions that we remember them for so perhaps electing MPs to go and argue in our favour isn't a bad idea. After all this is exactly what SF do in the Dail and in Brussels.

I support a United Ireland but to think it can be achieved by disengaging with the British state isn't a credible position. After all, the new Ireland will require significant support both politically and monetary from the UK Government.








A united Ireland will require financial and political support from Britain? Are you for real?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 20, 2019, 03:06:33 PM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on November 20, 2019, 02:39:30 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 20, 2019, 02:32:52 PM
I don't think they're "fantastic" which is so subjective but MPs who've made significant contributions

Mark Durkan - Forced the British Gov to admit that if NI voted to unite with ROI they would be re-accepted into the EU without application process. Called out the SF and British dirty deal to give amnesty to Soldiers and Terrorists involved in the Troubles.

Aneran Bevan - Minister for Health

Parnell - Leader of Irish Nationalism

Leo Abse - Proposed Homosexual law reform

John Bercow - There's a case to be made here for how he has steered the Brexit debate

Seamus Mallon - Patten report was improved of the back of Mallon's work in the Commons

LSH - While a Unionist has fought as the lone NI Remain voice despite quite a vitriol from the DUP.

Jess Phillips
Iain Blackforth
Maidri Black

That's just off the top of my head. And you can pick holes and say they did that and this one did this and so on and so on. Such is the luxury of those on the sideline who don't have to make a stand.

No Minister is universally popular and they will have to make decisions that will make them unpopular or popular with their base. But they make decisions nonetheless and sometimes it's those unpopular decisions that we remember them for so perhaps electing MPs to go and argue in our favour isn't a bad idea. After all this is exactly what SF do in the Dail and in Brussels.

I support a United Ireland but to think it can be achieved by disengaging with the British state isn't a credible position. After all, the new Ireland will require significant support both politically and monetary from the UK Government.








A united Ireland will require financial and political support from Britain? Are you for real?

Yes. This is widely accepted by all Nationalist parties. What is your proposal? That the ROI pays financially alone? Without even UK government political support?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 20, 2019, 03:28:22 PM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on November 20, 2019, 02:39:30 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 20, 2019, 02:32:52 PM
I don't think they're "fantastic" which is so subjective but MPs who've made significant contributions

Mark Durkan - Forced the British Gov to admit that if NI voted to unite with ROI they would be re-accepted into the EU without application process. Called out the SF and British dirty deal to give amnesty to Soldiers and Terrorists involved in the Troubles.

Aneran Bevan - Minister for Health

Parnell - Leader of Irish Nationalism

Leo Abse - Proposed Homosexual law reform

John Bercow - There's a case to be made here for how he has steered the Brexit debate

Seamus Mallon - Patten report was improved of the back of Mallon's work in the Commons

LSH - While a Unionist has fought as the lone NI Remain voice despite quite a vitriol from the DUP.

Jess Phillips
Iain Blackforth
Maidri Black

That's just off the top of my head. And you can pick holes and say they did that and this one did this and so on and so on. Such is the luxury of those on the sideline who don't have to make a stand.

No Minister is universally popular and they will have to make decisions that will make them unpopular or popular with their base. But they make decisions nonetheless and sometimes it's those unpopular decisions that we remember them for so perhaps electing MPs to go and argue in our favour isn't a bad idea. After all this is exactly what SF do in the Dail and in Brussels.

I support a United Ireland but to think it can be achieved by disengaging with the British state isn't a credible position. After all, the new Ireland will require significant support both politically and monetary from the UK Government.








A united Ireland will require financial and political support from Britain? Are you for real?

Have they made a real difference to our lives???

Bercow - you're having a laugh...lol...because of how he steered Brexit.  He really has impacted on my life...not.  Joke.

They make no difference to our lives in reality.  I see you must be SDLP by your love in with Durkan and Mallon. 

MPs make no real difference.  Cllrs. do a better job: if I have a problem with a pot hole, they sort it.  People might think that's silly but it's true.  They have more of an impact on my day life than an MP.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on November 20, 2019, 03:35:00 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 20, 2019, 03:06:33 PM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on November 20, 2019, 02:39:30 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 20, 2019, 02:32:52 PM
I don't think they're "fantastic" which is so subjective but MPs who've made significant contributions

Mark Durkan - Forced the British Gov to admit that if NI voted to unite with ROI they would be re-accepted into the EU without application process. Called out the SF and British dirty deal to give amnesty to Soldiers and Terrorists involved in the Troubles.

Aneran Bevan - Minister for Health

Parnell - Leader of Irish Nationalism

Leo Abse - Proposed Homosexual law reform

John Bercow - There's a case to be made here for how he has steered the Brexit debate

Seamus Mallon - Patten report was improved of the back of Mallon's work in the Commons

LSH - While a Unionist has fought as the lone NI Remain voice despite quite a vitriol from the DUP.

Jess Phillips
Iain Blackforth
Maidri Black

That's just off the top of my head. And you can pick holes and say they did that and this one did this and so on and so on. Such is the luxury of those on the sideline who don't have to make a stand.

No Minister is universally popular and they will have to make decisions that will make them unpopular or popular with their base. But they make decisions nonetheless and sometimes it's those unpopular decisions that we remember them for so perhaps electing MPs to go and argue in our favour isn't a bad idea. After all this is exactly what SF do in the Dail and in Brussels.

I support a United Ireland but to think it can be achieved by disengaging with the British state isn't a credible position. After all, the new Ireland will require significant support both politically and monetary from the UK Government.








A united Ireland will require financial and political support from Britain? Are you for real?

Yes. This is widely accepted by all Nationalist parties. What is your proposal? That the ROI pays financially alone? Without even UK government political support?


Since when has all these nationalist parties you speak of accepted British interference even in a united Ireland? A united ireland that still means the UK has an input in our politics? I must have missed that one...
The UK government can't even get their own mess in order without suggesting they're going to be needed over here in the event of a united Ireland. 
After the UK leaves the EU, a united Ireland economy inside the EU would grow by over 35 billion inside the first few years alone. So it's not a case of whether the south can afford us, but it makes economic sense for everyone.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: 6th sam on November 20, 2019, 05:28:58 PM
"I... swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, her heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.

Members who object to swearing the oath are permitted to make a solemn affirmation under the terms of the Oaths Act 1978:

I... do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, her heirs and successors, according to law."

The SF position is they are not prepared to swear or affirm true allegiance to the British Queen. Though I would prefer representation in Westminster, this would involve Chris Hazzard taking the oath/affirmation, and his position is clearly that he won't do that , as a matter of principle. Whereas  SDLP are
Mandated to follow this British directive for the benefit of their constituents, SF are also mandated not to take this oath/affirmation.
Those that would berate SF for taking this understandable position ( given their raison d'etre) are perhaps missing the point, clearly agreed in the GFA: ie that both identities are on an equal footing here. However elected representatives from the Irish community here are expected to take an oath/affirmation of allegiance to a foreign monarch in order to represent their constituents in Parliament. Of note , this non-elected monarch must also be leader of a particular religion . This position like many things here which don't have the British and Irish identities on an equal footing , is actually in contravention with the spirit and wording of the internationally accepted GFA, as I see it.
I would actually agree that several SDLP politicians have and continue to have a major positive impact on political progress here. It seems to me that most in the perceived Irish tradition in the North are caught between 2 stools, 1. To drive towards a UI and make NI ungovernable and 2. To allow a UI to happen gradually whilst not neglecting the important things :jobs/education/health/rights.
Those 2 "factions" in the Irish community unfortunately have been prone to targeting each other as opposed to isolating the DUP and trying to convince unionists and ROI that an All-Island solution is workable. Both factions would agree on most things including respect and fostering of the British tradition within any All-Island solution . The biggest block to progress , which will be unpalatable to many in SF, is the anger about the IRA campaign. Regardless of any perceived justification for that campaign, a large proportion of people were traumatised and embittered by it. If we are going to get unionists engaged with the possibility of an All-Island solution 3 things need to happen: 1. The economic argument has to be compelling and Britain will have to part finance the transition 2. Republicanism will have to better explain the reasons for their campaign and apologise for the hurt with genuine remorse 3. Unionism and the British state will have to recognise and apologise for their conduct ( discrimination, state killings, collusion, lack of respect for the Irish identity) in 100 years of the failed sectarian-based NI.
It's quite simple what republicanism has to do and must visibly show understanding and empathy for victims and the unionist position. The challenge for Britain/unionism is similar but as they are currently "in power" they must visibly Be seen to promote the equal value of the British and Irish traditions here., as per the GFA. One big step in that regard would be altering the parliamentary oath/affirmation for those MPs with an Irish identity
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on November 20, 2019, 05:41:37 PM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on November 20, 2019, 02:39:30 PM
A united Ireland will require financial and political support from Britain? Are you for real?

Of course it will!

Or do you think the ROI should be on the hook for the pensions of civil servants who have been working for the British government for 30 years?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: 6th sam on November 20, 2019, 05:57:34 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on November 20, 2019, 05:41:37 PM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on November 20, 2019, 02:39:30 PM
A united Ireland will require financial and political support from Britain? Are you for real?

Of course it will!

Or do you think the ROI should be on the hook for the pensions of civil servants who have been working for the British government for 30 years?

Britain wouldn't expect to simply Offload the failed economic entity which is NI, without considerable financial transition monies. Economically Britain would be so delighted to offload NI that they would be happy to bankroll the transition handsomely , if it put an end to the historic conflict between these islands, by finishing the heavily subsidised sectarian partition of this island.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 20, 2019, 06:16:36 PM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on November 20, 2019, 03:35:00 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 20, 2019, 03:06:33 PM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on November 20, 2019, 02:39:30 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 20, 2019, 02:32:52 PM
I don't think they're "fantastic" which is so subjective but MPs who've made significant contributions

Mark Durkan - Forced the British Gov to admit that if NI voted to unite with ROI they would be re-accepted into the EU without application process. Called out the SF and British dirty deal to give amnesty to Soldiers and Terrorists involved in the Troubles.

Aneran Bevan - Minister for Health

Parnell - Leader of Irish Nationalism

Leo Abse - Proposed Homosexual law reform

John Bercow - There's a case to be made here for how he has steered the Brexit debate

Seamus Mallon - Patten report was improved of the back of Mallon's work in the Commons

LSH - While a Unionist has fought as the lone NI Remain voice despite quite a vitriol from the DUP.

Jess Phillips
Iain Blackforth
Maidri Black

That's just off the top of my head. And you can pick holes and say they did that and this one did this and so on and so on. Such is the luxury of those on the sideline who don't have to make a stand.

No Minister is universally popular and they will have to make decisions that will make them unpopular or popular with their base. But they make decisions nonetheless and sometimes it's those unpopular decisions that we remember them for so perhaps electing MPs to go and argue in our favour isn't a bad idea. After all this is exactly what SF do in the Dail and in Brussels.

I support a United Ireland but to think it can be achieved by disengaging with the British state isn't a credible position. After all, the new Ireland will require significant support both politically and monetary from the UK Government.








A united Ireland will require financial and political support from Britain? Are you for real?

Yes. This is widely accepted by all Nationalist parties. What is your proposal? That the ROI pays financially alone? Without even UK government political support?


Since when has all these nationalist parties you speak of accepted British interference even in a united Ireland? A united ireland that still means the UK has an input in our politics? I must have missed that one...
The UK government can't even get their own mess in order without suggesting they're going to be needed over here in the event of a united Ireland. 
After the UK leaves the EU, a united Ireland economy inside the EU would grow by over 35 billion inside the first few years alone. So it's not a case of whether the south can afford us, but it makes economic sense for everyone.

I'm not talking about interference. You are.
It is extremely naive to think that a place costing 11billion a year won't need financial support in the event of a UI. It's even more naive to think it can work without the support of the UK Government. But lookit if you think an economy that grows by 35 billion will have that sort of money then yep lets cut all ties. Unfortunately I think reality might bite pretty quickly.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 20, 2019, 06:26:13 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on November 20, 2019, 05:28:58 PM
"I... swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, her heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.

Members who object to swearing the oath are permitted to make a solemn affirmation under the terms of the Oaths Act 1978:

I... do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, her heirs and successors, according to law."

The SF position is they are not prepared to swear or affirm true allegiance to the British Queen. Though I would prefer representation in Westminster, this would involve Chris Hazzard taking the oath/affirmation, and his position is clearly that he won't do that , as a matter of principle. Whereas  SDLP are
Mandated to follow this British directive for the benefit of their constituents, SF are also mandated not to take this oath/affirmation.
Those that would berate SF for taking this understandable position ( given their raison d'etre) are perhaps missing the point, clearly agreed in the GFA: ie that both identities are on an equal footing here. However elected representatives from the Irish community here are expected to take an oath/affirmation of allegiance to a foreign monarch in order to represent their constituents in Parliament. Of note , this non-elected monarch must also be leader of a particular religion . This position like many things here which don't have the British and Irish identities on an equal footing , is actually in contravention with the spirit and wording of the internationally accepted GFA, as I see it.
I would actually agree that several SDLP politicians have and continue to have a major positive impact on political progress here. It seems to me that most in the perceived Irish tradition in the North are caught between 2 stools, 1. To drive towards a UI and make NI ungovernable and 2. To allow a UI to happen gradually whilst not neglecting the important things :jobs/education/health/rights.
Those 2 "factions" in the Irish community unfortunately have been prone to targeting each other as opposed to isolating the DUP and trying to convince unionists and ROI that an All-Island solution is workable. Both factions would agree on most things including respect and fostering of the British tradition within any All-Island solution . The biggest block to progress , which will be unpalatable to many in SF, is the anger about the IRA campaign. Regardless of any perceived justification for that campaign, a large proportion of people were traumatised and embittered by it. If we are going to get unionists engaged with the possibility of an All-Island solution 3 things need to happen: 1. The economic argument has to be compelling and Britain will have to part finance the transition 2. Republicanism will have to better explain the reasons for their campaign and apologise for the hurt with genuine remorse 3. Unionism and the British state will have to recognise and apologise for their conduct ( discrimination, state killings, collusion, lack of respect for the Irish identity) in 100 years of the failed sectarian-based NI.
It's quite simple what republicanism has to do and must visibly show understanding and empathy for victims and the unionist position. The challenge for Britain/unionism is similar but as they are currently "in power" they must visibly Be seen to promote the equal value of the British and Irish traditions here., as per the GFA. One big step in that regard would be altering the parliamentary oath/affirmation for those MPs with an Irish identity

Cool. Totally get that. Doesn't want to swear the oath. (You actually don't have to but whatever that's a different argument) My response is simply don't stand.
Decisions are made in Westminster whether we like it or not. Indeed it's at the behest of the NI Secretary of State to call a Unity referendum. Where better to make that argument than the HOC?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on November 20, 2019, 06:41:16 PM
Good luck with Item 3 Sam.
Unionists are still 120% convinced that they have never ever done anything untoward to the Nationalist Community.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 20, 2019, 07:05:13 PM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on November 20, 2019, 02:39:30 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 20, 2019, 02:32:52 PM
I don't think they're "fantastic" which is so subjective but MPs who've made significant contributions

Mark Durkan - Forced the British Gov to admit that if NI voted to unite with ROI they would be re-accepted into the EU without application process. Called out the SF and British dirty deal to give amnesty to Soldiers and Terrorists involved in the Troubles.

Aneran Bevan - Minister for Health

Parnell - Leader of Irish Nationalism

Leo Abse - Proposed Homosexual law reform

John Bercow - There's a case to be made here for how he has steered the Brexit debate

Seamus Mallon - Patten report was improved of the back of Mallon's work in the Commons

LSH - While a Unionist has fought as the lone NI Remain voice despite quite a vitriol from the DUP.

Jess Phillips
Iain Blackforth
Maidri Black

That's just off the top of my head. And you can pick holes and say they did that and this one did this and so on and so on. Such is the luxury of those on the sideline who don't have to make a stand.

No Minister is universally popular and they will have to make decisions that will make them unpopular or popular with their base. But they make decisions nonetheless and sometimes it's those unpopular decisions that we remember them for so perhaps electing MPs to go and argue in our favour isn't a bad idea. After all this is exactly what SF do in the Dail and in Brussels.

I support a United Ireland but to think it can be achieved by disengaging with the British state isn't a credible position. After all, the new Ireland will require significant support both politically and monetary from the UK Government.








A united Ireland will require financial and political support from Britain? Are you for real?

Whether you care to accept it or not, this will be a reality. Not even the most romantic dreamer would claim that it will be some sort of economic utopia from day 1. It would have to be carefully managed and would probably take 10 years or more to be fully operational in terms of the integration of sectors within the all island economy. Not to mention working out how to subsume education and health sectors. There may be short term pain which may require a gradual phasing out of UK subvention monies which I think UK government could be willing to pay if it meant a complete withdrawal was assured.

Even politically speaking there may have to be some sort of role for Stormont inside a new unified Ireland whilst the transition is being made and I think most rational people would be ok with that.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on November 20, 2019, 07:16:32 PM
It will be a Condederation of 2 "Home Rule" areas - present 6 and 26 Cos. ;)
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Chief on November 20, 2019, 10:12:18 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 20, 2019, 07:05:13 PM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on November 20, 2019, 02:39:30 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 20, 2019, 02:32:52 PM
I don't think they're "fantastic" which is so subjective but MPs who've made significant contributions

Mark Durkan - Forced the British Gov to admit that if NI voted to unite with ROI they would be re-accepted into the EU without application process. Called out the SF and British dirty deal to give amnesty to Soldiers and Terrorists involved in the Troubles.

Aneran Bevan - Minister for Health

Parnell - Leader of Irish Nationalism

Leo Abse - Proposed Homosexual law reform

John Bercow - There's a case to be made here for how he has steered the Brexit debate

Seamus Mallon - Patten report was improved of the back of Mallon's work in the Commons

LSH - While a Unionist has fought as the lone NI Remain voice despite quite a vitriol from the DUP.

Jess Phillips
Iain Blackforth
Maidri Black

That's just off the top of my head. And you can pick holes and say they did that and this one did this and so on and so on. Such is the luxury of those on the sideline who don't have to make a stand.

No Minister is universally popular and they will have to make decisions that will make them unpopular or popular with their base. But they make decisions nonetheless and sometimes it's those unpopular decisions that we remember them for so perhaps electing MPs to go and argue in our favour isn't a bad idea. After all this is exactly what SF do in the Dail and in Brussels.

I support a United Ireland but to think it can be achieved by disengaging with the British state isn't a credible position. After all, the new Ireland will require significant support both politically and monetary from the UK Government.








A united Ireland will require financial and political support from Britain? Are you for real?

Whether you care to accept it or not, this will be a reality. Not even the most romantic dreamer would claim that it will be some sort of economic utopia from day 1. It would have to be carefully managed and would probably take 10 years or more to be fully operational in terms of the integration of sectors within the all island economy. Not to mention working out how to subsume education and health sectors. There may be short term pain which may require a gradual phasing out of UK subvention monies which I think UK government could be willing to pay if it meant a complete withdrawal was assured.

Even politically speaking there may have to be some sort of role for Stormont inside a new unified Ireland whilst the transition is being made and I think most rational people would be ok with that.


There is no point asking for independence if we aren’t prepared to pay our own bills and accept the financial and economic consequences. Post independence  British subventions have no place in any mature conversation on a United Ireland. Why would they pay the costs but then neglect to take a share in any future economic benefits?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Farrandeelin on November 20, 2019, 10:18:25 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 20, 2019, 07:05:13 PM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on November 20, 2019, 02:39:30 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 20, 2019, 02:32:52 PM
I don't think they're "fantastic" which is so subjective but MPs who've made significant contributions

Mark Durkan - Forced the British Gov to admit that if NI voted to unite with ROI they would be re-accepted into the EU without application process. Called out the SF and British dirty deal to give amnesty to Soldiers and Terrorists involved in the Troubles.

Aneran Bevan - Minister for Health

Parnell - Leader of Irish Nationalism

Leo Abse - Proposed Homosexual law reform

John Bercow - There's a case to be made here for how he has steered the Brexit debate

Seamus Mallon - Patten report was improved of the back of Mallon's work in the Commons

LSH - While a Unionist has fought as the lone NI Remain voice despite quite a vitriol from the DUP.

Jess Phillips
Iain Blackforth
Maidri Black

That's just off the top of my head. And you can pick holes and say they did that and this one did this and so on and so on. Such is the luxury of those on the sideline who don't have to make a stand.

No Minister is universally popular and they will have to make decisions that will make them unpopular or popular with their base. But they make decisions nonetheless and sometimes it's those unpopular decisions that we remember them for so perhaps electing MPs to go and argue in our favour isn't a bad idea. After all this is exactly what SF do in the Dail and in Brussels.

I support a United Ireland but to think it can be achieved by disengaging with the British state isn't a credible position. After all, the new Ireland will require significant support both politically and monetary from the UK Government.








A united Ireland will require financial and political support from Britain? Are you for real?

Whether you care to accept it or not, this will be a reality. Not even the most romantic dreamer would claim that it will be some sort of economic utopia from day 1. It would have to be carefully managed and would probably take 10 years or more to be fully operational in terms of the integration of sectors within the all island economy. Not to mention working out how to subsume education and health sectors. There may be short term pain which may require a gradual phasing out of UK subvention monies which I think UK government could be willing to pay if it meant a complete withdrawal was assured.

Even politically speaking there may have to be some sort of role for Stormont inside a new unified Ireland whilst the transition is being made and I think most rational people would be ok with that.

I wouldn't trust the Brits to pay. For anything.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 21, 2019, 04:12:15 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 20, 2019, 07:16:32 PM
It will be a Condederation of 2 "Home Rule" areas - present 6 and 26 Cos. ;)
It might be reconfigured with just Antrim and Down the way things are going
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on November 21, 2019, 04:32:26 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on November 20, 2019, 10:18:25 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 20, 2019, 07:05:13 PM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on November 20, 2019, 02:39:30 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 20, 2019, 02:32:52 PM
I don't think they're "fantastic" which is so subjective but MPs who've made significant contributions

Mark Durkan - Forced the British Gov to admit that if NI voted to unite with ROI they would be re-accepted into the EU without application process. Called out the SF and British dirty deal to give amnesty to Soldiers and Terrorists involved in the Troubles.

Aneran Bevan - Minister for Health

Parnell - Leader of Irish Nationalism

Leo Abse - Proposed Homosexual law reform

John Bercow - There's a case to be made here for how he has steered the Brexit debate

Seamus Mallon - Patten report was improved of the back of Mallon's work in the Commons

LSH - While a Unionist has fought as the lone NI Remain voice despite quite a vitriol from the DUP.

Jess Phillips
Iain Blackforth
Maidri Black

That's just off the top of my head. And you can pick holes and say they did that and this one did this and so on and so on. Such is the luxury of those on the sideline who don't have to make a stand.

No Minister is universally popular and they will have to make decisions that will make them unpopular or popular with their base. But they make decisions nonetheless and sometimes it's those unpopular decisions that we remember them for so perhaps electing MPs to go and argue in our favour isn't a bad idea. After all this is exactly what SF do in the Dail and in Brussels.

I support a United Ireland but to think it can be achieved by disengaging with the British state isn't a credible position. After all, the new Ireland will require significant support both politically and monetary from the UK Government.








A united Ireland will require financial and political support from Britain? Are you for real?

Whether you care to accept it or not, this will be a reality. Not even the most romantic dreamer would claim that it will be some sort of economic utopia from day 1. It would have to be carefully managed and would probably take 10 years or more to be fully operational in terms of the integration of sectors within the all island economy. Not to mention working out how to subsume education and health sectors. There may be short term pain which may require a gradual phasing out of UK subvention monies which I think UK government could be willing to pay if it meant a complete withdrawal was assured.

Even politically speaking there may have to be some sort of role for Stormont inside a new unified Ireland whilst the transition is being made and I think most rational people would be ok with that.

I wouldn't trust the Brits to pay. For anything.

Unless there's a Hell. They'd pay then, alright.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 21, 2019, 11:34:42 AM
Quote from: Chief on November 20, 2019, 10:12:18 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 20, 2019, 07:05:13 PM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on November 20, 2019, 02:39:30 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 20, 2019, 02:32:52 PM
I don't think they're "fantastic" which is so subjective but MPs who've made significant contributions

Mark Durkan - Forced the British Gov to admit that if NI voted to unite with ROI they would be re-accepted into the EU without application process. Called out the SF and British dirty deal to give amnesty to Soldiers and Terrorists involved in the Troubles.

Aneran Bevan - Minister for Health

Parnell - Leader of Irish Nationalism

Leo Abse - Proposed Homosexual law reform

John Bercow - There's a case to be made here for how he has steered the Brexit debate

Seamus Mallon - Patten report was improved of the back of Mallon's work in the Commons

LSH - While a Unionist has fought as the lone NI Remain voice despite quite a vitriol from the DUP.

Jess Phillips
Iain Blackforth
Maidri Black

That's just off the top of my head. And you can pick holes and say they did that and this one did this and so on and so on. Such is the luxury of those on the sideline who don't have to make a stand.

No Minister is universally popular and they will have to make decisions that will make them unpopular or popular with their base. But they make decisions nonetheless and sometimes it's those unpopular decisions that we remember them for so perhaps electing MPs to go and argue in our favour isn't a bad idea. After all this is exactly what SF do in the Dail and in Brussels.

I support a United Ireland but to think it can be achieved by disengaging with the British state isn't a credible position. After all, the new Ireland will require significant support both politically and monetary from the UK Government.








A united Ireland will require financial and political support from Britain? Are you for real?

Whether you care to accept it or not, this will be a reality. Not even the most romantic dreamer would claim that it will be some sort of economic utopia from day 1. It would have to be carefully managed and would probably take 10 years or more to be fully operational in terms of the integration of sectors within the all island economy. Not to mention working out how to subsume education and health sectors. There may be short term pain which may require a gradual phasing out of UK subvention monies which I think UK government could be willing to pay if it meant a complete withdrawal was assured.

Even politically speaking there may have to be some sort of role for Stormont inside a new unified Ireland whilst the transition is being made and I think most rational people would be ok with that.


There is no point asking for independence if we aren't prepared to pay our own bills and accept the financial and economic consequences. Post independence  British subventions have no place in any mature conversation on a United Ireland. Why would they pay the costs but then neglect to take a share in any future economic benefits?

Well then why are the EU asking the Brits to pay up? Should they be allowed to walk away from their financial commitments? Remember this will be a UK withdrawal. Same as with the EU.
There's a real immaturity on show here with a few posters. Any new Ireland will still be have an economy deeply linked with the UK. That's going to need support from the UK government especially politically.
If Unionists have a long way to go, this thread shows that many Nationalists and Republicans also have a long road to travel. 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Lar Naparka on November 21, 2019, 12:02:34 PM
I honestly think that the Brits would like nothing better than being able to get to hell out of Norn Iron and stick the Brexit  barrier in the Irish Sea and keep all and everything from that blasted place out by all means possible.
But they can't walk away and that's a cold, hard reality.
For one thing they are responsible for most of the troubles there and it's only fair, if nothing else, that they should pay the bills for the historical damage they caused. That's natural justice.
But there are far more immediate problems than that.
There's roughly 1 and a quarter million people who want to keep the strongest possible link with Britain and there are elements there who will resort to violence, if and when, any attempt is made to end British rule.
There will never be a peaceful transition and anybody who thinks otherwise is living in an alternate universe.
Norn Iron was never meant to be self-sustaining as there never was enough of a population there for this to be possible and the Brits always accepted that keep the link with charming people like Arlene and Sammy and Ian Óg was going to cost them serious money.
There is no  way the republic could or would consider making up the shortfall without help from those who caused most of the problems to begin with.
Down here we can't handle our housing, homelessness or health problems as it is never mind coming up with the billions it would take to finance a UI now or at any time in the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on November 21, 2019, 12:33:06 PM
Population of the 6 Cos c1.9m
Hardly 1.25m Unionists/Brits Farr?????
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on November 21, 2019, 12:57:16 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 21, 2019, 11:34:42 AM
If Unionists have a long way to go, this thread shows that many Nationalists and Republicans also have a long road to travel.

Not often I agree with ye - but your bang on here.

[and among those that have furthest to travel are Sinn f**king Fein]
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on November 21, 2019, 01:01:07 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 21, 2019, 11:34:42 AM
Quote from: Chief on November 20, 2019, 10:12:18 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 20, 2019, 07:05:13 PM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on November 20, 2019, 02:39:30 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 20, 2019, 02:32:52 PM
I don't think they're "fantastic" which is so subjective but MPs who've made significant contributions

Mark Durkan - Forced the British Gov to admit that if NI voted to unite with ROI they would be re-accepted into the EU without application process. Called out the SF and British dirty deal to give amnesty to Soldiers and Terrorists involved in the Troubles.

Aneran Bevan - Minister for Health

Parnell - Leader of Irish Nationalism

Leo Abse - Proposed Homosexual law reform

John Bercow - There's a case to be made here for how he has steered the Brexit debate

Seamus Mallon - Patten report was improved of the back of Mallon's work in the Commons

LSH - While a Unionist has fought as the lone NI Remain voice despite quite a vitriol from the DUP.

Jess Phillips
Iain Blackforth
Maidri Black

That's just off the top of my head. And you can pick holes and say they did that and this one did this and so on and so on. Such is the luxury of those on the sideline who don't have to make a stand.

No Minister is universally popular and they will have to make decisions that will make them unpopular or popular with their base. But they make decisions nonetheless and sometimes it's those unpopular decisions that we remember them for so perhaps electing MPs to go and argue in our favour isn't a bad idea. After all this is exactly what SF do in the Dail and in Brussels.

I support a United Ireland but to think it can be achieved by disengaging with the British state isn't a credible position. After all, the new Ireland will require significant support both politically and monetary from the UK Government.








A united Ireland will require financial and political support from Britain? Are you for real?

Whether you care to accept it or not, this will be a reality. Not even the most romantic dreamer would claim that it will be some sort of economic utopia from day 1. It would have to be carefully managed and would probably take 10 years or more to be fully operational in terms of the integration of sectors within the all island economy. Not to mention working out how to subsume education and health sectors. There may be short term pain which may require a gradual phasing out of UK subvention monies which I think UK government could be willing to pay if it meant a complete withdrawal was assured.

Even politically speaking there may have to be some sort of role for Stormont inside a new unified Ireland whilst the transition is being made and I think most rational people would be ok with that.


There is no point asking for independence if we aren't prepared to pay our own bills and accept the financial and economic consequences. Post independence  British subventions have no place in any mature conversation on a United Ireland. Why would they pay the costs but then neglect to take a share in any future economic benefits?

Well then why are the EU asking the Brits to pay up? Should they be allowed to walk away from their financial commitments? Remember this will be a UK withdrawal. Same as with the EU.
There's a real immaturity on show here with a few posters. Any new Ireland will still be have an economy deeply linked with the UK. That's going to need support from the UK government especially politically.
If Unionists have a long way to go, this thread shows that many Nationalists and Republicans also have a long road to travel.

Part of the independent deal in 1922 was that Ireland had to pay some of Britain's WW1 debt. I'm not sure how long that took to pay off.

Effectively, Britain walked out of the South, and it was the Irish who paid for it. This was after years of violence and civil war. So, this thing about Britain having to mop up the mess from the Troubles, pay for bringing some prosperity to the North... don't kid yourselves, they'd wash their hands and piss off in the morning without a second thought.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Chief on November 21, 2019, 02:21:05 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 21, 2019, 11:34:42 AM
Quote from: Chief on November 20, 2019, 10:12:18 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 20, 2019, 07:05:13 PM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on November 20, 2019, 02:39:30 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 20, 2019, 02:32:52 PM
I don't think they're "fantastic" which is so subjective but MPs who've made significant contributions

Mark Durkan - Forced the British Gov to admit that if NI voted to unite with ROI they would be re-accepted into the EU without application process. Called out the SF and British dirty deal to give amnesty to Soldiers and Terrorists involved in the Troubles.

Aneran Bevan - Minister for Health

Parnell - Leader of Irish Nationalism

Leo Abse - Proposed Homosexual law reform

John Bercow - There's a case to be made here for how he has steered the Brexit debate

Seamus Mallon - Patten report was improved of the back of Mallon's work in the Commons

LSH - While a Unionist has fought as the lone NI Remain voice despite quite a vitriol from the DUP.

Jess Phillips
Iain Blackforth
Maidri Black

That's just off the top of my head. And you can pick holes and say they did that and this one did this and so on and so on. Such is the luxury of those on the sideline who don't have to make a stand.

No Minister is universally popular and they will have to make decisions that will make them unpopular or popular with their base. But they make decisions nonetheless and sometimes it's those unpopular decisions that we remember them for so perhaps electing MPs to go and argue in our favour isn't a bad idea. After all this is exactly what SF do in the Dail and in Brussels.

I support a United Ireland but to think it can be achieved by disengaging with the British state isn't a credible position. After all, the new Ireland will require significant support both politically and monetary from the UK Government.








A united Ireland will require financial and political support from Britain? Are you for real?

Whether you care to accept it or not, this will be a reality. Not even the most romantic dreamer would claim that it will be some sort of economic utopia from day 1. It would have to be carefully managed and would probably take 10 years or more to be fully operational in terms of the integration of sectors within the all island economy. Not to mention working out how to subsume education and health sectors. There may be short term pain which may require a gradual phasing out of UK subvention monies which I think UK government could be willing to pay if it meant a complete withdrawal was assured.

Even politically speaking there may have to be some sort of role for Stormont inside a new unified Ireland whilst the transition is being made and I think most rational people would be ok with that.


There is no point asking for independence if we aren't prepared to pay our own bills and accept the financial and economic consequences. Post independence  British subventions have no place in any mature conversation on a United Ireland. Why would they pay the costs but then neglect to take a share in any future economic benefits?

Well then why are the EU asking the Brits to pay up? Should they be allowed to walk away from their financial commitments? Remember this will be a UK withdrawal. Same as with the EU.
There's a real immaturity on show here with a few posters. Any new Ireland will still be have an economy deeply linked with the UK. That's going to need support from the UK government especially politically.
If Unionists have a long way to go, this thread shows that many Nationalists and Republicans also have a long road to travel.

I think your confusing the economy with payments.

Of course the economy in the north will remain linked closely to GB - it goes without saying (almost).

In terms of payments, GB might - might- agree to fund the commitments they already made to NI in GB budgets. In return they'll want the ROI to take on NI's share of sovereign debt, public sector pensions, etc etc.

Any notion of any further "goodwill" payments from GB to help a UI become a success will be a no-go from their perspective. Why would they? From their perspective after all it is us that would be leaving them.

A UI will have to stand on its own two feet from day one, and it will have to either borrow, raise taxes, or cut public services to do so. That's the harsh reality of it. The trick is persuading people that this is a price worth paying , if we're not willing to pay that price then we don't deserve independence,
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: dec on November 21, 2019, 02:45:25 PM
Quote from: Chief on November 21, 2019, 02:21:05 PM

In terms of payments, GB might - might- agree to fund the commitments they already made to NI in GB budgets. In return they'll want the ROI to take on NI's share of sovereign debt, public sector pensions, etc etc.


The UK government will still be responsible for paying any pension rights accrued while working for the UK government. The same goes for old age pensions etc. The British OAPs who retire to the Costa del Sol still are eligible for UK pensions. My parents who worked in the US in the 60s and paid social security contributions received US social security payments when they reached retirement age even though they no longer lived in the US.

-- adding
also I worked for a few years in NI before moving to the US and I will receive some UK pension benefits when I reach retirement age.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 21, 2019, 02:46:56 PM
Quote from: Chief on November 21, 2019, 02:21:05 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 21, 2019, 11:34:42 AM
Quote from: Chief on November 20, 2019, 10:12:18 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 20, 2019, 07:05:13 PM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on November 20, 2019, 02:39:30 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 20, 2019, 02:32:52 PM
I don't think they're "fantastic" which is so subjective but MPs who've made significant contributions

Mark Durkan - Forced the British Gov to admit that if NI voted to unite with ROI they would be re-accepted into the EU without application process. Called out the SF and British dirty deal to give amnesty to Soldiers and Terrorists involved in the Troubles.

Aneran Bevan - Minister for Health

Parnell - Leader of Irish Nationalism

Leo Abse - Proposed Homosexual law reform

John Bercow - There's a case to be made here for how he has steered the Brexit debate

Seamus Mallon - Patten report was improved of the back of Mallon's work in the Commons

LSH - While a Unionist has fought as the lone NI Remain voice despite quite a vitriol from the DUP.

Jess Phillips
Iain Blackforth
Maidri Black

That's just off the top of my head. And you can pick holes and say they did that and this one did this and so on and so on. Such is the luxury of those on the sideline who don't have to make a stand.

No Minister is universally popular and they will have to make decisions that will make them unpopular or popular with their base. But they make decisions nonetheless and sometimes it's those unpopular decisions that we remember them for so perhaps electing MPs to go and argue in our favour isn't a bad idea. After all this is exactly what SF do in the Dail and in Brussels.

I support a United Ireland but to think it can be achieved by disengaging with the British state isn't a credible position. After all, the new Ireland will require significant support both politically and monetary from the UK Government.








A united Ireland will require financial and political support from Britain? Are you for real?

Whether you care to accept it or not, this will be a reality. Not even the most romantic dreamer would claim that it will be some sort of economic utopia from day 1. It would have to be carefully managed and would probably take 10 years or more to be fully operational in terms of the integration of sectors within the all island economy. Not to mention working out how to subsume education and health sectors. There may be short term pain which may require a gradual phasing out of UK subvention monies which I think UK government could be willing to pay if it meant a complete withdrawal was assured.

Even politically speaking there may have to be some sort of role for Stormont inside a new unified Ireland whilst the transition is being made and I think most rational people would be ok with that.


There is no point asking for independence if we aren't prepared to pay our own bills and accept the financial and economic consequences. Post independence  British subventions have no place in any mature conversation on a United Ireland. Why would they pay the costs but then neglect to take a share in any future economic benefits?

Well then why are the EU asking the Brits to pay up? Should they be allowed to walk away from their financial commitments? Remember this will be a UK withdrawal. Same as with the EU.
There's a real immaturity on show here with a few posters. Any new Ireland will still be have an economy deeply linked with the UK. That's going to need support from the UK government especially politically.
If Unionists have a long way to go, this thread shows that many Nationalists and Republicans also have a long road to travel.

I think your confusing the economy with payments.

Of course the economy in the north will remain linked closely to GB - it goes without saying (almost).

In terms of payments, GB might - might- agree to fund the commitments they already made to NI in GB budgets. In return they'll want the ROI to take on NI's share of sovereign debt, public sector pensions, etc etc.

Any notion of any further "goodwill" payments from GB to help a UI become a success will be a no-go from their perspective. Why would they? From their perspective after all it is us that would be leaving them.

A UI will have to stand on its own two feet from day one, and it will have to either borrow, raise taxes, or cut public services to do so. That's the harsh reality of it. The trick is persuading people that this is a price worth paying , if we're not willing to pay that price then we don't deserve independence,

I'm not confusing anything.
I said originally that the UK would have to support any New Ireland financially and politically.
Financially - honour their financial commitments. Debt. Pensions. Budgets. Integration of services there is a whole host of issues to be agreed but they need to pay their fair share.
Politically. As in political support for the New Ireland. That they recognise the state. That they encourage GB companies to continue their involvement in Ireland whether as employers or trade partners. In short, be a dead on neighbour.


There are so many benefits for everyone in a New Ireland. For people in Coleraine and Cork. But we need a mature grown up conversation to take place. Not this "stick it to the prods in a 50+1 vote. f**k them. We're big enough to see out an economic nuclear winter. This is Ireland. We've seen of the Brits before and we'll do it again. We just need to invoke the spirit of the battle of Clontarf!" This is the same w**k argument that many Brexit supporters make. It's not good enough for Brexit and it's not good enough for a New Ireland.
I'm not directing this to anyone in particular. It's just a general thought.




Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Lar Naparka on November 21, 2019, 03:17:28 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 21, 2019, 12:33:06 PM
Population of the 6 Cos c1.9m
Hardly 1.25m Unionists/Brits Farr?????
I am going by what Evil Genius has said and I imagine he is including Castle Catholics here.If push ever comes to shove, I'd say a lot of nominal Nationalists will think long and hard about cutting economic ties with Britain.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on November 21, 2019, 03:19:56 PM
I'd expect that the 6 Cos wouldn't inherit any part if the "UK's" National debt but in return the new Irish Entity would pay all SW pensions and benefits from day 1.
Ex British Civil servants, Soldiers and similar would continue to receive pensions from the GB Governnent.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on November 21, 2019, 06:24:58 PM
So the Institute for Fiscal Studies have said Labours manifesto spending and taxation pledges are "colossal" and "not credible"

No doubt they are a right wing Tory mouthpiece
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 21, 2019, 07:10:09 PM
Labour are planning on injecting £135 billion into economy in the next 5 years. Jesus Christ. 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: armaghniac on November 21, 2019, 07:25:27 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 21, 2019, 07:10:09 PM
Labour are planning on injecting £135 billion into economy in the next 5 years. Jesus Christ.

they'll take it from one arm and inject it into the other.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 21, 2019, 08:56:12 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 21, 2019, 07:10:09 PM
Labour are planning on injecting £135 billion into economy in the next 5 years. Jesus Christ.
Do you know how much money the Bank of England pumped into
the economy via QE ? Do you know where it ended up?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on November 21, 2019, 09:17:54 PM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 21, 2019, 06:24:58 PM
So the Institute for Fiscal Studies have said Labours manifesto spending and taxation pledges are "colossal" and "not credible"
No doubt they are a right wing Tory mouthpiece

There was a piece on Sky earlier giving figures (dunno where they were sourced) that showed it all added up.

Here, found it: https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1197485459200466944

edit: But yeah, no way are they raising £80B extra income tax from the top 5% and via corporation tax alone*. I'm not convinced their numbers add up.

*although if they can seal off the loopholes multinationals use to move tax abroad, there is undoubtedly tens of billions to potentially be found there.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on November 21, 2019, 09:32:48 PM
https://youtu.be/rTmSfzeHdEo

Andrew Neil vs. Liz Truss on housing.

Also this  8):
https://www.thetorymanifesto.com

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on November 21, 2019, 10:04:57 PM
Missed this Financial Times link from Seafoid  ::)


Labours manifesto adds up to a recipe for decline

www.FT.com

The Labour party manifesto is nothing more than a blueprint for socialism in one country. The combination of punitive tax increases, sweeping nationalisation, and the end of Thatcher-era union reforms turn the clock back 40 years. Set alongside a vast expansion of the state — based on spending amounting to six per cent of national income — Labour's plans are a recipe for terminal economic decline.

Whereas previous Labour leaders, from Tony Blair to Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband, accepted the market economy, the hard left clique around Jeremy Corbyn have elected to replace it with their own statist model. This owes more to François Mitterrand's socialist programme in 1981 than to a realistic prescription for reforming a modern economy, still less preserving the UK's treasured status as a beacon for foreign investment.

The tragedy of Jeremy Corbyn's Labour party, like so many populist movements, is that it does identify areas that genuinely need fixing. Nearly a decade after the Conservatives returned to power, real wages have still not returned to their pre-crisis peak. Homelessness has risen. Basic public services such the criminal justice system, social care and local government are dire. Privatised water and rail companies are not delivering for users. Large parts of the population feel excluded from the bright spots of prosperity, mainly in the south-east.


Yet virtually all of Labour's prescriptions to tackle these challenges are misguided. Mr Corbyn's original sin is to cast private enterprise as a necessary evil to be managed rather than being part of the solution to the problems his party has identified. The assault on business is an attack on wealth creation.

First, Labour is proposing a staggering increase in taxes — close to £83bn a year by 2023-24, with the bulk coming from higher levies on business investment, much of it being squeezed out of the private sector in year one.

Second, the nationalisation programme goes far beyond anything contemplated in a generation. True, private monopolies in rail and water have fallen short in performance. There is a case for re-regulation or indeed re-examining ownership; but to extend nationalisation to the energy utilities, broadband and Royal Mail is an unwarranted interference which will shatter confidence and deter investment.

Third, the party proposes collective sectoral bargaining over pay and conditions, claiming this "will increase wages and reduce inequality". It would instead stifle innovation and lock workers out of employment. Similarly, plans for rent control would advantage "insiders" who already rent and push "outsiders" into an unregulated black market.

In some areas, the manifesto is less radical than expected. It has dropped the fantasy target of hitting net zero carbon emissions by 2030, which would require a hugely expensive and near-impossible transformation of the economy. Also gone are proposals to bring private schools into the state sector, and a mooted idea to give private tenants a right to buy their home from their landlord. On security and defence it commits to renewing Trident, remaining part of Nato and keeping to the alliance's target for military spending of 2 per cent of national income.

The British economy is not broken. It has proven remarkably resilient in the face of Brexit uncertainty. Labour's plans would exponentially increase the risks to the economy. A responsible centre-left programme to restore fairness and opportunity, to rebuild public services, and preserve private sector incentives, was there for the taking. Mr Corbyn has missed an open goal.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: whitegoodman on November 21, 2019, 11:27:15 PM
Thought Eastwood spoke very well on the view there.  Talks sense which is rare for politicians here and in London.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 22, 2019, 09:29:41 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 15, 2019, 08:33:31 AM
Gotta love Mark Carruthers on the View last night.

He gave Steve Aitken an awful time last night and the previous week gave Naomi Long a working and then to cap it off he goes to a panel of "political commentators" to see how the interviewee got on and the blonde woman, Fionnuala O'Connor certainly doesn't hold back on her opinions either.

If he keeps that up Michelle O'Neill and Arlene will be torn asunder.

Wee Colum did well last night with Carruthers trying to pick holes in his policies of standing aside in North Belfast yet going full on against Sinn Fein in Foyle.
Liked his line of preferring Finucane sitting in his house than Dodds sitting in the HoC..

Fionnuala wasn't on to give her frank and cutting opinion at the end though.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 22, 2019, 09:49:06 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 22, 2019, 09:29:41 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 15, 2019, 08:33:31 AM
Gotta love Mark Carruthers on the View last night.

He gave Steve Aitken an awful time last night and the previous week gave Naomi Long a working and then to cap it off he goes to a panel of "political commentators" to see how the interviewee got on and the blonde woman, Fionnuala O'Connor certainly doesn't hold back on her opinions either.

If he keeps that up Michelle O'Neill and Arlene will be torn asunder.

Wee Colum did well last night with Carruthers trying to pick holes in his policies of standing aside in North Belfast yet going full on against Sinn Fein in Foyle.
Liked his line of preferring Finucane sitting in his house than Dodds sitting in the HoC..

Fionnuala wasn't on to give her frank and cutting opinion at the end though.

Wee Colum is always the main man - every type of election, he 'nominates' himself.  Now he wants to go to Westminister after saying leader shouldn't be there.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 22, 2019, 10:54:31 AM
Quote from: marty34 on November 22, 2019, 09:49:06 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 22, 2019, 09:29:41 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 15, 2019, 08:33:31 AM
Gotta love Mark Carruthers on the View last night.

He gave Steve Aitken an awful time last night and the previous week gave Naomi Long a working and then to cap it off he goes to a panel of "political commentators" to see how the interviewee got on and the blonde woman, Fionnuala O'Connor certainly doesn't hold back on her opinions either.

If he keeps that up Michelle O'Neill and Arlene will be torn asunder.

Wee Colum did well last night with Carruthers trying to pick holes in his policies of standing aside in North Belfast yet going full on against Sinn Fein in Foyle.
Liked his line of preferring Finucane sitting in his house than Dodds sitting in the HoC..

Fionnuala wasn't on to give her frank and cutting opinion at the end though.

Wee Colum is always the main man - every type of election, he 'nominates' himself.  Now he wants to go to Westminister after saying leader shouldn't be there.

Thought Eastwood did very well. He simply has to run and not only that he has to win the Foyle seat. SF probably had a bounce last time after the death of Martin McGuinness. It would be a very, very good election if they could win it back as well as SB.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on November 22, 2019, 11:15:43 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 21, 2019, 10:04:57 PM
Yet virtually all of Labour's prescriptions to tackle these challenges are misguided. Mr Corbyn's original sin is to cast private enterprise as a necessary evil to be managed rather than being part of the solution to the problems his party has identified. The assault on business is an attack on wealth creation.

Second, the nationalisation programme goes far beyond anything contemplated in a generation. True, private monopolies in rail and water have fallen short in performance. There is a case for re-regulation or indeed re-examining ownership; but to extend nationalisation to the energy utilities, broadband and Royal Mail is an unwarranted interference which will shatter confidence and deter investment.

It has been shown over time that private companies running:
- rail
- water
- broadband
- mail

Have resulted in worse performance for more public outlay.


Now while the FT may make some* valid points about investment etc - I will say this - do you think the author of that article is among those that is gonna be taxed more or not? You must consider that and then read the article.


*but not all. One of the more fundamental maxims of economics is - improve infrastructure and you improve conditions for investment. So if the railways were working better, the roads were better, buses were better, if everyone did have fast broadband... then infrastructure is improved. That tends to attract businesses.


Does Norway or Denmark have trouble attracting investment despite their higher tax rates?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 22, 2019, 11:20:10 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 21, 2019, 10:04:57 PM
Missed this Financial Times link from Seafoid  ::)


Labours manifesto adds up to a recipe for decline

www.FT.com

The Labour party manifesto is nothing more than a blueprint for socialism in one country. The combination of punitive tax increases, sweeping nationalisation, and the end of Thatcher-era union reforms turn the clock back 40 years. Set alongside a vast expansion of the state — based on spending amounting to six per cent of national income — Labour's plans are a recipe for terminal economic decline.

Whereas previous Labour leaders, from Tony Blair to Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband, accepted the market economy, the hard left clique around Jeremy Corbyn have elected to replace it with their own statist model. This owes more to François Mitterrand's socialist programme in 1981 than to a realistic prescription for reforming a modern economy, still less preserving the UK's treasured status as a beacon for foreign investment.

The tragedy of Jeremy Corbyn's Labour party, like so many populist movements, is that it does identify areas that genuinely need fixing. Nearly a decade after the Conservatives returned to power, real wages have still not returned to their pre-crisis peak. Homelessness has risen. Basic public services such the criminal justice system, social care and local government are dire. Privatised water and rail companies are not delivering for users. Large parts of the population feel excluded from the bright spots of prosperity, mainly in the south-east.


Yet virtually all of Labour's prescriptions to tackle these challenges are misguided. Mr Corbyn's original sin is to cast private enterprise as a necessary evil to be managed rather than being part of the solution to the problems his party has identified. The assault on business is an attack on wealth creation.

First, Labour is proposing a staggering increase in taxes — close to £83bn a year by 2023-24, with the bulk coming from higher levies on business investment, much of it being squeezed out of the private sector in year one.

Second, the nationalisation programme goes far beyond anything contemplated in a generation. True, private monopolies in rail and water have fallen short in performance. There is a case for re-regulation or indeed re-examining ownership; but to extend nationalisation to the energy utilities, broadband and Royal Mail is an unwarranted interference which will shatter confidence and deter investment.

Third, the party proposes collective sectoral bargaining over pay and conditions, claiming this "will increase wages and reduce inequality". It would instead stifle innovation and lock workers out of employment. Similarly, plans for rent control would advantage "insiders" who already rent and push "outsiders" into an unregulated black market.

In some areas, the manifesto is less radical than expected. It has dropped the fantasy target of hitting net zero carbon emissions by 2030, which would require a hugely expensive and near-impossible transformation of the economy. Also gone are proposals to bring private schools into the state sector, and a mooted idea to give private tenants a right to buy their home from their landlord. On security and defence it commits to renewing Trident, remaining part of Nato and keeping to the alliance's target for military spending of 2 per cent of national income.

The British economy is not broken. It has proven remarkably resilient in the face of Brexit uncertainty. Labour's plans would exponentially increase the risks to the economy. A responsible centre-left programme to restore fairness and opportunity, to rebuild public services, and preserve private sector incentives, was there for the taking. Mr Corbyn has missed an open goal.

It certainly is.
Wages are still 10% lower in real terms vs 2007.
Despite very low unemployment tax receipts did not benefit. Why? Because productivity has been flat for over a decade.
https://www.gazetteandherald.co.uk/news/18053943.foodbank-plea-donations-marlborough-supermarket-appeal/
The UK economy is banjaxed. It's as bad as Ballymena.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: magpie seanie on November 22, 2019, 01:20:18 PM
That FT article is what you'd expect. The usual rubbish about wealth creators leaving etc. Saying "the British Economy is not broken" tells you all you need to know about the author. It's not broken for those who read the FT perhaps. No one likes paying more than they have before but to fix things, those who can afford to are going to have to pay a bit more. Or else the problems can be left unaddressed to get worse and the vast majority of people "can eat cake". Any right thinking person cannot let this famine economics hold sway any longer. In 40/50 years time (or sooner) a lot of people are going to have no jobs so don't think because you're doing ok now because you're a hard worker and have worked hard to get where you are that it'll continue into the future. Radical change is needed as the changes coming to our world in the next 20/30/40 years are going to be mind blowing and come oat us faster and faster. Current economic models are failing badly today and the future looks exponentially worse for that type of model.

Corbyn and Labours policies are actually moderate enough. It's just that the vast majority of media is through the extreme right wing laissez faire lens of city spivs and Eton grandees so terms like "communist" get thrown around like snuff at a wake....
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Hound on November 22, 2019, 01:22:39 PM
QuoteWages are still 10% lower in real terms vs 2007.
The UK economy is banjaxed.

So "real" wages are lower than at the height of a completely unsustainable boom, and that means the economy is banjaxed?!

There's absolutely no intention to do any kind of reasonable analysis when using 2007 as a benchmark. You need to be an idiot or to think you're talking with gullible idiots, if you use that as your benchmark to make your point.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 22, 2019, 02:00:54 PM
I see in the Irish News that Doug Beattie at a unionist/loyalist protest meeting during the week was asked to ''use his military experience to drill them!!'' Precisely what for I don't know but they are doing their best to ramp things up and I've never heard such rabble rousing rhetoric from the Unionist side than what we have heard in the last few weeks. It's the tail firmly wagging the dog as loyalism appears to have taken over the DUP and their short term desperation to win an extra seat in an election that will very unlikely have any real significance on the outcome of Brexit (which is what the election is all about) will once again be their downfall. They are increasingly beginning to look like relics who want to harp back to the conflict. In many ways they require such conflict to create new artificial bogeymen. When this election campaign is over politicians like Dodds & Donaldson can no longer claim the moral high ground since they have cavorted and flirted with hard elements of  loyalism for the price of a few extra votes.   

I'd be very happy with the nationalist/republican political response so far in not taking the bait and engaging them too much in the green v orange and name calling debate which they so badly want. It might not be rewarded with electorate gain but the battle for the middle ground is moving firmly in the direction of nationalists.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 22, 2019, 02:46:14 PM
Quote from: Hound on November 22, 2019, 01:22:39 PM
QuoteWages are still 10% lower in real terms vs 2007.
The UK economy is banjaxed.

So "real" wages are lower than at the height of a completely unsustainable boom, and that means the economy is banjaxed?!

There's absolutely no intention to do any kind of reasonable analysis when using 2007 as a benchmark. You need to be an idiot or to think you're talking with gullible idiots, if you use that as your benchmark to make your point.

How's UK productivity, Hound?
Have you had a look at the UK current account recently
Or total debt to GDP?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on November 22, 2019, 02:53:02 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 22, 2019, 01:20:18 PM
That FT article is what you'd expect. The usual rubbish about wealth creators leaving etc. Saying "the British Economy is not broken" tells you all you need to know about the author. It's not broken for those who read the FT perhaps. No one likes paying more than they have before but to fix things, those who can afford to are going to have to pay a bit more. Or else the problems can be left unaddressed to get worse and the vast majority of people "can eat cake". Any right thinking person cannot let this famine economics hold sway any longer. In 40/50 years time (or sooner) a lot of people are going to have no jobs so don't think because you're doing ok now because you're a hard worker and have worked hard to get where you are that it'll continue into the future. Radical change is needed as the changes coming to our world in the next 20/30/40 years are going to be mind blowing and come oat us faster and faster. Current economic models are failing badly today and the future looks exponentially worse for that type of model.

Corbyn and Labours policies are actually moderate enough. It's just that the vast majority of media is through the extreme right wing laissez faire lens of city spivs and Eton grandees so terms like "communist" get thrown around like snuff at a wake....

Institute for Fiscal Studies right wing loons? They said Labours manifesto spending colossal and not credible, thats "moderate"? What planet are you on
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 22, 2019, 03:51:38 PM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 22, 2019, 02:53:02 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 22, 2019, 01:20:18 PM
That FT article is what you'd expect. The usual rubbish about wealth creators leaving etc. Saying "the British Economy is not broken" tells you all you need to know about the author. It's not broken for those who read the FT perhaps. No one likes paying more than they have before but to fix things, those who can afford to are going to have to pay a bit more. Or else the problems can be left unaddressed to get worse and the vast majority of people "can eat cake". Any right thinking person cannot let this famine economics hold sway any longer. In 40/50 years time (or sooner) a lot of people are going to have no jobs so don't think because you're doing ok now because you're a hard worker and have worked hard to get where you are that it'll continue into the future. Radical change is needed as the changes coming to our world in the next 20/30/40 years are going to be mind blowing and come oat us faster and faster. Current economic models are failing badly today and the future looks exponentially worse for that type of model.

Corbyn and Labours policies are actually moderate enough. It's just that the vast majority of media is through the extreme right wing laissez faire lens of city spivs and Eton grandees so terms like "communist" get thrown around like snuff at a wake....

Institute for Fiscal Studies right wing loons? They said Labours manifesto spending colossal and not credible, thats "moderate"? What planet are you on

They are neoliberal rentagobs

"The rich are different but they pay a lot of tax"
Not very deep thinkers either
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 22, 2019, 04:52:00 PM
I thought Corbyn did ok but just OK in the head to head debate. Johnson just seemed to lie and get away with it. Corbyn (with 1 exception) give honest answers that I would be in full agreement with. The Brexit question he did not handle well. There was nothing wrong with what he did say but the problem is what he didn't say. Labour have a sensible Brexit policy and Corbyn could have made a better fist at setting out that policy. He wrongly allowed Johnson to get traction with the crowd and create a sense that Corby want answering the question. He did answer it but he didn't answer it well enough.

The Tory "factcheck" nonsense really shows what a despicable shower they are.

Labour manifesto is based upon assumption that their Tax rates would generate a particular tax revenue. All other manifestos (well assuming that a party actually bothers to issue a manifesto and its costings) are done in this basis. IFS will challenge the tax take figure. They always will. That isn't the real question. The real question is when faced woth reduced tax reveues does a future government borrow to fill the gap or cut spending and which spending pledges get compromised first. Given Labour have committed to not borrowing more for everyday expenses the real question here is the ranking of spending priorities.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 22, 2019, 04:53:36 PM
Just read the last 3 pages there. Some staggering stuff.

The notion that NI will not be hugely expensive for RoI to take on is I presume a joke. NI costs GB £11bn p.a. That's roughly £180 per head in GB but £6,100 per head in RoI. Pretty significant difference. People in GB more or less get the public services that NI get. This isn't the case in RoI. RoI taxpayers would have to pay into a system to deliver services in NI that they wouldn't get in RoI.

Reliance on GB to stand-on to fund a NI that is outside UK would need to be substantiated. Have UK committed to do so? Can they commit to do so before the 2 referenda? Are people to blithely expect GB to stand on when they vote in a referendum and then find out later whether the hope will be realised? Talk here that NI would not have to take part of the GB national debt with it is based upon what exactly? Talk that GB would have to honour the pensions of people living in NI would be based on what exactly?  Using examples of people living in county X and then emigrating to county B isn't really the same as what we are talking about here.   
 
Put simply I cannot see how anyone in RoI could vote for a UI without certainty on these issues and I cannot see how a UK government could give that certainty. Any promise by the UK government to part fund NI within a UI is likely to face legal challenge. UK has responsibilities under GFA and effectively incentivising a change in the constitutional   position would certainly face legal scrutiny. What way that would go I don't know. In the interim I would think it dangerous to rely simply on the fact that HM Treasury would have a financial incentive to ditch NI. The incentive might not prove enough. Judges will have their say.

Separately the very idea that there would be no "British Interference" in  a UI is also laughable. People need to get their head around the fact that in every possible likelihood a UI continues to involve a NI but devolved form Dublin rather and London with GB taking up the role that RoI currently take with the North/South and East/West bodies continuing to play their minor roles. The reality is that the NI structures will be maintained in such a way that would facilitate NI voting a future date to leave a UI. GFA is based upon the principle of consent of the people of NI not the "principle of consent up to the point where consent is given for a UI at which point its simple majority rule with the majority being established on a 32 county basis.

SF do indeed make it clear that they are an abstentionist party.  That isn't sufficient to make the whole issue go away. I know what my attitude would be to a Unionist party that stood on an abstentionist basis in NI elections for seats in a future Dublin legislative assembly.  My attitude to SF is exactly the same.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on November 22, 2019, 05:05:16 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 22, 2019, 03:51:38 PM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 22, 2019, 02:53:02 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 22, 2019, 01:20:18 PM
That FT article is what you'd expect. The usual rubbish about wealth creators leaving etc. Saying "the British Economy is not broken" tells you all you need to know about the author. It's not broken for those who read the FT perhaps. No one likes paying more than they have before but to fix things, those who can afford to are going to have to pay a bit more. Or else the problems can be left unaddressed to get worse and the vast majority of people "can eat cake". Any right thinking person cannot let this famine economics hold sway any longer. In 40/50 years time (or sooner) a lot of people are going to have no jobs so don't think because you're doing ok now because you're a hard worker and have worked hard to get where you are that it'll continue into the future. Radical change is needed as the changes coming to our world in the next 20/30/40 years are going to be mind blowing and come oat us faster and faster. Current economic models are failing badly today and the future looks exponentially worse for that type of model.

Corbyn and Labours policies are actually moderate enough. It's just that the vast majority of media is through the extreme right wing laissez faire lens of city spivs and Eton grandees so terms like "communist" get thrown around like snuff at a wake....

Institute for Fiscal Studies right wing loons? They said Labours manifesto spending colossal and not credible, thats "moderate"? What planet are you on

They are neoliberal rentagobs

"The rich are different but they pay a lot of tax"
Not very deep thinkers either

Would probably put a bit more stock in their expertise that yours, no offence
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 22, 2019, 05:43:07 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 22, 2019, 04:53:36 PM
Just read the last 3 pages there. Some staggering stuff.

The notion that NI will not be hugely expensive for RoI to take on is I presume a joke. NI costs GB £11bn p.a. That's roughly £180 per head in GB but £6,100 per head in RoI. Pretty significant difference. People in GB more or less get the public services that NI get. This isn't the case in RoI. RoI taxpayers would have to pay into a system to deliver services in NI that they wouldn't get in RoI.

Reliance on GB to stand-on to fund a NI that is outside UK would need to be substantiated. Have UK committed to do so? Can they commit to do so before the 2 referenda? Are people to blithely expect GB to stand on when they vote in a referendum and then find out later whether the hope will be realised? Talk here that NI would not have to take part of the GB national debt with it is based upon what exactly? Talk that GB would have to honour the pensions of people living in NI would be based on what exactly?  Using examples of people living in county X and then emigrating to county B isn't really the same as what we are talking about here.   
 
Put simply I cannot see how anyone in RoI could vote for a UI without certainty on these issues and I cannot see how a UK government could give that certainty. Any promise by the UK government to part fund NI within a UI is likely to face legal challenge. UK has responsibilities under GFA and effectively incentivising a change in the constitutional   position would certainly face legal scrutiny. What way that would go I don't know. In the interim I would think it dangerous to rely simply on the fact that HM Treasury would have a financial incentive to ditch NI. The incentive might not prove enough. Judges will have their say.

Separately the very idea that there would be no "British Interference" in  a UI is also laughable. People need to get their head around the fact that in every possible likelihood a UI continues to involve a NI but devolved form Dublin rather and London with GB taking up the role that RoI currently take with the North/South and East/West bodies continuing to play their minor roles. The reality is that the NI structures will be maintained in such a way that would facilitate NI voting a future date to leave a UI. GFA is based upon the principle of consent of the people of NI not the "principle of consent up to the point where consent is given for a UI at which point its simple majority rule with the majority being established on a 32 county basis.

SF do indeed make it clear that they are an abstentionist party.  That isn't sufficient to make the whole issue go away. I know what my attitude would be to a Unionist party that stood on an abstentionist basis in NI elections for seats in a future Dublin legislative assembly.  My attitude to SF is exactly the same.

NI was basically ignored economically by the Brits for the last while.They just threw money at it. Blue collar Protestant productivity is very poor. Thatcherism didn't suit the 6 counties. If NI was part of a UI ,Derry, Newry etc and the towns on the other side of the border would benefit.

Gross Value Added is a recognised measure related to
productivity and in 2017 NÍ GVA was 23% below the UK average and had the slowest growth over the previous decade.
Thé EU would chip in with funds to address this. Plus Thatcherism is dying
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 22, 2019, 06:11:08 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 22, 2019, 04:53:36 PM
Just read the last 3 pages there. Some staggering stuff.

The notion that NI will not be hugely expensive for RoI to take on is I presume a joke. NI costs GB £11bn p.a. That's roughly £180 per head in GB but £6,100 per head in RoI. Pretty significant difference. People in GB more or less get the public services that NI get. This isn't the case in RoI. RoI taxpayers would have to pay into a system to deliver services in NI that they wouldn't get in RoI.

Reliance on GB to stand-on to fund a NI that is outside UK would need to be substantiated. Have UK committed to do so? Can they commit to do so before the 2 referenda? Are people to blithely expect GB to stand on when they vote in a referendum and then find out later whether the hope will be realised? Talk here that NI would not have to take part of the GB national debt with it is based upon what exactly? Talk that GB would have to honour the pensions of people living in NI would be based on what exactly?  Using examples of people living in county X and then emigrating to county B isn't really the same as what we are talking about here.   
 
Put simply I cannot see how anyone in RoI could vote for a UI without certainty on these issues and I cannot see how a UK government could give that certainty. Any promise by the UK government to part fund NI within a UI is likely to face legal challenge. UK has responsibilities under GFA and effectively incentivising a change in the constitutional   position would certainly face legal scrutiny. What way that would go I don't know. In the interim I would think it dangerous to rely simply on the fact that HM Treasury would have a financial incentive to ditch NI. The incentive might not prove enough. Judges will have their say.

Separately the very idea that there would be no "British Interference" in  a UI is also laughable. People need to get their head around the fact that in every possible likelihood a UI continues to involve a NI but devolved form Dublin rather and London with GB taking up the role that RoI currently take with the North/South and East/West bodies continuing to play their minor roles. The reality is that the NI structures will be maintained in such a way that would facilitate NI voting a future date to leave a UI. GFA is based upon the principle of consent of the people of NI not the "principle of consent up to the point where consent is given for a UI at which point its simple majority rule with the majority being established on a 32 county basis.

SF do indeed make it clear that they are an abstentionist party.  That isn't sufficient to make the whole issue go away. I know what my attitude would be to a Unionist party that stood on an abstentionist basis in NI elections for seats in a future Dublin legislative assembly.  My attitude to SF is exactly the same.

So you're saying that a UI could effectively be reversed if it was decided after reunification to call another border poll whereby the previously subsumed 6 counties and the 26 counties could together decide to go back to the reimposition of the border? Honestly never knew that, in that case there will never be a final settlement under the current provisions. Probably an irrelevance since demographics are only going in one direction but it wasn't something I was aware of.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on November 22, 2019, 06:16:30 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 22, 2019, 04:53:36 PM
Just read the last 3 pages there. Some staggering stuff.

The notion that NI will not be hugely expensive for RoI to take on is I presume a joke. NI costs GB £11bn p.a. That's roughly £180 per head in GB but £6,100 per head in RoI. Pretty significant difference. People in GB more or less get the public services that NI get. This isn't the case in RoI. RoI taxpayers would have to pay into a system to deliver services in NI that they wouldn't get in RoI.

Reliance on GB to stand-on to fund a NI that is outside UK would need to be substantiated. Have UK committed to do so? Can they commit to do so before the 2 referenda? Are people to blithely expect GB to stand on when they vote in a referendum and then find out later whether the hope will be realised? Talk here that NI would not have to take part of the GB national debt with it is based upon what exactly? Talk that GB would have to honour the pensions of people living in NI would be based on what exactly?  Using examples of people living in county X and then emigrating to county B isn't really the same as what we are talking about here.   
 
Put simply I cannot see how anyone in RoI could vote for a UI without certainty on these issues and I cannot see how a UK government could give that certainty. Any promise by the UK government to part fund NI within a UI is likely to face legal challenge. UK has responsibilities under GFA and effectively incentivising a change in the constitutional   position would certainly face legal scrutiny. What way that would go I don't know. In the interim I would think it dangerous to rely simply on the fact that HM Treasury would have a financial incentive to ditch NI. The incentive might not prove enough. Judges will have their say.

Separately the very idea that there would be no "British Interference" in  a UI is also laughable. People need to get their head around the fact that in every possible likelihood a UI continues to involve a NI but devolved form Dublin rather and London with GB taking up the role that RoI currently take with the North/South and East/West bodies continuing to play their minor roles. The reality is that the NI structures will be maintained in such a way that would facilitate NI voting a future date to leave a UI. GFA is based upon the principle of consent of the people of NI not the "principle of consent up to the point where consent is given for a UI at which point its simple majority rule with the majority being established on a 32 county basis.

SF do indeed make it clear that they are an abstentionist party.  That isn't sufficient to make the whole issue go away. I know what my attitude would be to a Unionist party that stood on an abstentionist basis in NI elections for seats in a future Dublin legislative assembly.  My attitude to SF is exactly the same.

That is incorrect. The GFA makes no provision for NI rejoining the UK at a future time. Once a UI, always a UI. That's the deal. If anyone has any issues with that, take it up with David Trimble and tell him he should have negotiated harder.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on November 22, 2019, 06:17:20 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 22, 2019, 06:11:08 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 22, 2019, 04:53:36 PM
Just read the last 3 pages there. Some staggering stuff.

The notion that NI will not be hugely expensive for RoI to take on is I presume a joke. NI costs GB £11bn p.a. That's roughly £180 per head in GB but £6,100 per head in RoI. Pretty significant difference. People in GB more or less get the public services that NI get. This isn't the case in RoI. RoI taxpayers would have to pay into a system to deliver services in NI that they wouldn't get in RoI.

Reliance on GB to stand-on to fund a NI that is outside UK would need to be substantiated. Have UK committed to do so? Can they commit to do so before the 2 referenda? Are people to blithely expect GB to stand on when they vote in a referendum and then find out later whether the hope will be realised? Talk here that NI would not have to take part of the GB national debt with it is based upon what exactly? Talk that GB would have to honour the pensions of people living in NI would be based on what exactly?  Using examples of people living in county X and then emigrating to county B isn't really the same as what we are talking about here.   
 
Put simply I cannot see how anyone in RoI could vote for a UI without certainty on these issues and I cannot see how a UK government could give that certainty. Any promise by the UK government to part fund NI within a UI is likely to face legal challenge. UK has responsibilities under GFA and effectively incentivising a change in the constitutional   position would certainly face legal scrutiny. What way that would go I don't know. In the interim I would think it dangerous to rely simply on the fact that HM Treasury would have a financial incentive to ditch NI. The incentive might not prove enough. Judges will have their say.

Separately the very idea that there would be no "British Interference" in  a UI is also laughable. People need to get their head around the fact that in every possible likelihood a UI continues to involve a NI but devolved form Dublin rather and London with GB taking up the role that RoI currently take with the North/South and East/West bodies continuing to play their minor roles. The reality is that the NI structures will be maintained in such a way that would facilitate NI voting a future date to leave a UI. GFA is based upon the principle of consent of the people of NI not the "principle of consent up to the point where consent is given for a UI at which point its simple majority rule with the majority being established on a 32 county basis.

SF do indeed make it clear that they are an abstentionist party.  That isn't sufficient to make the whole issue go away. I know what my attitude would be to a Unionist party that stood on an abstentionist basis in NI elections for seats in a future Dublin legislative assembly.  My attitude to SF is exactly the same.

So you're saying that a UI could effectively be reversed if it was decided after reunification to call another border poll whereby the previously subsumed 6 counties and the 26 counties could together decide to go back to the reimposition of the border? Honestly never knew that, in that case there will never be a final settlement under the current provisions. Probably an irrelevance since demographics are only going in one direction but it wasn't something I was aware of.

You weren't aware of it because there's no such thing.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: armaghniac on November 22, 2019, 06:21:48 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 22, 2019, 04:53:36 PM

Put simply I cannot see how anyone in RoI could vote for a UI without certainty on these issues and I cannot see how a UK government could give that certainty. Any promise by the UK government to part fund NI within a UI is likely to face legal challenge. UK has responsibilities under GFA and effectively incentivising a change in the constitutional   position would certainly face legal scrutiny. What way that would go I don't know. In the interim I would think it dangerous to rely simply on the fact that HM Treasury would have a financial incentive to ditch NI. The incentive might not prove enough. Judges will have their say.

Any contribution would likely be associated with continued payment of pensions for civil servants and so forth,  Westminster can legislate for this. I don't see judges being the problem, the issue is a formula that would lead to England subsidising an independent Scotland would not be acceptable. I'd say they'd be happy to sign up to diminishing contribution to NI as the alternative is an increasing contribution to NI. 


QuoteSeparately the very idea that there would be no "British Interference" in  a UI is also laughable. People need to get their head around the fact that in every possible likelihood a UI continues to involve a NI but devolved form Dublin rather and London with GB taking up the role that RoI currently take with the North/South and East/West bodies continuing to play their minor roles. The reality is that the NI structures will be maintained in such a way that would facilitate NI voting a future date to leave a UI. GFA is based upon the principle of consent of the people of NI not the "principle of consent up to the point where consent is given for a UI at which point its simple majority rule with the majority being established on a 32 county basis.

In no way are people in border areas going to agree to the continuation of border discontinuities, the 6 counties is gone.  There is no point complaining about the cost and then keep two administrations going.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 22, 2019, 08:17:51 PM
Lead down to 10

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-election-poll-panelbase-idUSKBN1XW249
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 23, 2019, 10:37:18 AM
https://inews.co.uk/opinion/northern-ireland-jeremy-corbyn-dup-uup-1319959
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 23, 2019, 09:20:58 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 22, 2019, 06:11:08 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 22, 2019, 04:53:36 PM
Just read the last 3 pages there. Some staggering stuff.

The notion that NI will not be hugely expensive for RoI to take on is I presume a joke. NI costs GB £11bn p.a. That's roughly £180 per head in GB but £6,100 per head in RoI. Pretty significant difference. People in GB more or less get the public services that NI get. This isn't the case in RoI. RoI taxpayers would have to pay into a system to deliver services in NI that they wouldn't get in RoI.

Reliance on GB to stand-on to fund a NI that is outside UK would need to be substantiated. Have UK committed to do so? Can they commit to do so before the 2 referenda? Are people to blithely expect GB to stand on when they vote in a referendum and then find out later whether the hope will be realised? Talk here that NI would not have to take part of the GB national debt with it is based upon what exactly? Talk that GB would have to honour the pensions of people living in NI would be based on what exactly?  Using examples of people living in county X and then emigrating to county B isn't really the same as what we are talking about here.   
 
Put simply I cannot see how anyone in RoI could vote for a UI without certainty on these issues and I cannot see how a UK government could give that certainty. Any promise by the UK government to part fund NI within a UI is likely to face legal challenge. UK has responsibilities under GFA and effectively incentivising a change in the constitutional   position would certainly face legal scrutiny. What way that would go I don't know. In the interim I would think it dangerous to rely simply on the fact that HM Treasury would have a financial incentive to ditch NI. The incentive might not prove enough. Judges will have their say.

Separately the very idea that there would be no "British Interference" in  a UI is also laughable. People need to get their head around the fact that in every possible likelihood a UI continues to involve a NI but devolved form Dublin rather and London with GB taking up the role that RoI currently take with the North/South and East/West bodies continuing to play their minor roles. The reality is that the NI structures will be maintained in such a way that would facilitate NI voting a future date to leave a UI. GFA is based upon the principle of consent of the people of NI not the "principle of consent up to the point where consent is given for a UI at which point its simple majority rule with the majority being established on a 32 county basis.

SF do indeed make it clear that they are an abstentionist party.  That isn't sufficient to make the whole issue go away. I know what my attitude would be to a Unionist party that stood on an abstentionist basis in NI elections for seats in a future Dublin legislative assembly.  My attitude to SF is exactly the same.

So you're saying that a UI could effectively be reversed if it was decided after reunification to call another border poll whereby the previously subsumed 6 counties and the 26 counties could together decide to go back to the reimposition of the border? Honestly never knew that, in that case there will never be a final settlement under the current provisions. Probably an irrelevance since demographics are only going in one direction but it wasn't something I was aware of.

Technically a UI could be reversed. In reality the probability is extremely low due to the inevitability of the line in bold. It is also the case that whilst the GFA sets out the precise mechanics for the first change in the constitutional change in NI it does not set out the precise steps for any further changes ( probably because of the one way nature of the demographic shift). The point here isn't the likelihood of a UI being reversed but rather the nature of what a UI will look like. Some still cling to the idea of a unitary 32 county republic with Amhrán na bhFiann as the anthem, compulsory Irish language at school and an inability to get a primary school or non STEM subject secondary school teaching post without being able to speak Irish kinda state. That isn't going to happen. GFA has no expiry date. It recognises the principle of consent of the people of NI. That principle has no expiry date. The GFA mandates the RoI (in the event of a UI) to run the place with rigorous impartiality in respect of the differing cultures and for the equal treatment for the identity, ethos and aspirations of both communities. Put simply there will be a NI entity with power sharing inside any UI
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 23, 2019, 09:25:17 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on November 22, 2019, 06:21:48 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 22, 2019, 04:53:36 PM

Put simply I cannot see how anyone in RoI could vote for a UI without certainty on these issues and I cannot see how a UK government could give that certainty. Any promise by the UK government to part fund NI within a UI is likely to face legal challenge. UK has responsibilities under GFA and effectively incentivising a change in the constitutional   position would certainly face legal scrutiny. What way that would go I don't know. In the interim I would think it dangerous to rely simply on the fact that HM Treasury would have a financial incentive to ditch NI. The incentive might not prove enough. Judges will have their say.

Any contribution would likely be associated with continued payment of pensions for civil servants and so forth,  Westminster can legislate for this. I don't see judges being the problem, the issue is a formula that would lead to England subsidising an independent Scotland would not be acceptable. I'd say they'd be happy to sign up to diminishing contribution to NI as the alternative is an increasing contribution to NI. 


QuoteSeparately the very idea that there would be no "British Interference" in  a UI is also laughable. People need to get their head around the fact that in every possible likelihood a UI continues to involve a NI but devolved form Dublin rather and London with GB taking up the role that RoI currently take with the North/South and East/West bodies continuing to play their minor roles. The reality is that the NI structures will be maintained in such a way that would facilitate NI voting a future date to leave a UI. GFA is based upon the principle of consent of the people of NI not the "principle of consent up to the point where consent is given for a UI at which point its simple majority rule with the majority being established on a 32 county basis.

In no way are people in border areas going to agree to the continuation of border discontinuities, the 6 counties is gone.  There is no point complaining about the cost and then keep two administrations going.
You are probably aware of recent examples of UK governments wanting to do things for reasons of convenience and political expediency but being held to the letter of the law by judges. Judges are not easily dismissed
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 23, 2019, 09:39:13 PM
Anybody, with a few weeks to go, hazard a guess - educated or otherwise - on final make-up of Westminister?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Chief on November 23, 2019, 11:23:49 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on November 22, 2019, 06:21:48 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 22, 2019, 04:53:36 PM

Put simply I cannot see how anyone in RoI could vote for a UI without certainty on these issues and I cannot see how a UK government could give that certainty. Any promise by the UK government to part fund NI within a UI is likely to face legal challenge. UK has responsibilities under GFA and effectively incentivising a change in the constitutional   position would certainly face legal scrutiny. What way that would go I don't know. In the interim I would think it dangerous to rely simply on the fact that HM Treasury would have a financial incentive to ditch NI. The incentive might not prove enough. Judges will have their say.

Any contribution would likely be associated with continued payment of pensions for civil servants and so forth,  Westminster can legislate for this. I don't see judges being the problem, the issue is a formula that would lead to England subsidising an independent Scotland would not be acceptable. I'd say they'd be happy to sign up to diminishing contribution to NI as the alternative is an increasing contribution to NI. 


QuoteSeparately the very idea that there would be no "British Interference" in  a UI is also laughable. People need to get their head around the fact that in every possible likelihood a UI continues to involve a NI but devolved form Dublin rather and London with GB taking up the role that RoI currently take with the North/South and East/West bodies continuing to play their minor roles. The reality is that the NI structures will be maintained in such a way that would facilitate NI voting a future date to leave a UI. GFA is based upon the principle of consent of the people of NI not the "principle of consent up to the point where consent is given for a UI at which point its simple majority rule with the majority being established on a 32 county basis.

In no way are people in border areas going to agree to the continuation of border discontinuities, the 6 counties is gone.  There is no point complaining about the cost and then keep two administrations going.

The onus for funding a UI is on the Irish Government - not the British. Whether it's via borrowing, taxation or cuts it doesn't matter.

Ultimately it's up to us to find the money - simple. The idea of looking to outsiders for help is not compatible with independence
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Farrandeelin on November 23, 2019, 11:39:28 PM
Quote from: marty34 on November 23, 2019, 09:39:13 PM
Anybody, with a few weeks to go, hazard a guess - educated or otherwise - on final make-up of Westminister?

My gut is telling me there won't be a Tory majority.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Chief on November 23, 2019, 11:44:14 PM
Quote from: marty34 on November 23, 2019, 09:39:13 PM
Anybody, with a few weeks to go, hazard a guess - educated or otherwise - on final make-up of Westminister?

Tory Minority Government, without enough assistance from DUP/Brexit Party to get their version of a deal through in the lifetime of the next parliament. More paralysis or another election in the spring.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: omaghjoe on November 24, 2019, 08:02:32 AM
If there is Tory minority government without enough DUP support surely that would mean the maths would work out for a rainbow coalition lead by Corbyn?

The polls are showing a big shift back to the big 2... not sure how much tactical voting is part of that but the Brexit party look to have tanked. Would be impressive if Corbyn managed to see of their threat to the labour seats in the north of England.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on November 24, 2019, 08:32:19 AM
listening to john curtice on the radio last night and he was concentrating on many less published regional polls, he is predicting a significant tory majority.

my read is that the Libs have crashed under a moan-pot leader and they will be lucky to reach 20 seats.

for now, I see the tories reaching 370, a 40-50 majority, the only thing that could stop them is if labour pull the stunt of trying to rob some marginal via postal voting.

much better a big tory majority and getting brexit done and dusted than a tiny majority or another tory minority propped up by DUP.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 24, 2019, 09:13:01 AM
Didn't hear the Curtice interview but his regional approach is more likely to be accurate . All along he has predicted that leave votes convert to seats more readily than Remain. That is not just the split of the Remain vote amongst parties but also the runaway Remain majorities in many seats still only equates to 1 seat per constituency (to state the bleeding obvious).

Lib Dem performance and indeed their relative success in taking Remain votes from Labour and Tories is key. Labour's retention of Leave voters is also key.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Walter Cronc on November 24, 2019, 09:44:09 AM
On the Lib Dem leader, jeez she's hard to listen to!!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 24, 2019, 09:49:44 AM
It's very hard to predict. The Tories seem to have absorbed
the Brexit party leave vote but are running a poor campaign. A lot will
depend on turnout.

If the Tories did win with a decent majority by this time next year the UK and the occupied counties would be looking at a No Deal exit and that would usher in a period of absolute chaos, featuring borders trína chéile, the end of the NHS and a crap deal with the US. Things could get a lot worse before they get worse.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 24, 2019, 10:02:24 AM
The NHS is crumbling but it will take quite a few years yet if anything happens with sales / privatisation. I sadly expect the tories to win by a decent majority  :(

I see "loyalists" having heated meetings now. There are rabble intent on rousing things up here though I guess that gets them voting. Look at the predicament we're in... what do we do... sure we'll vote for the party that put us here.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 24, 2019, 10:04:39 AM
Quote from: Walter Cronc on November 24, 2019, 09:44:09 AM
On the Lib Dem leader, jeez she's hard to listen to!!

Putting it mildly.

Completely nonsensical approach to Brexit and government in their manifesto

Revoke with no referendum is mental. Total meltdown would ensue. It's not a policy it's a attempt at a populist land grab the like of which even BoJo couldn't match in terms of audacity.

It also relies on a Lib Dem majority. The chances of that is zero. Even Swinson has climbed down from that fantasy.

Swinson is campaigning for a hung parliament (fair enough) but until this morning was ruling out participating in any of the possible forms of government. This morning's Marr interview changes that. Sounded to me like she was saying Don't vote for Tories or Labour, vote Lib Dem so that they can provide confidence and supply to Tories on the basis that the Tories accept Labour Party policy on Brexit. Absolutely mind boggling.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 25, 2019, 05:42:10 AM
https://amp.ft.com/content/6da72060-cfd2-11e9-99a4-b5ded7a7fe3f


Your series of articles exploring the Labour party's economic agenda fails to appreciate the severity of the UK's current economic condition, and reproduces a number of misconceptions.

There is growing political consensus that the UK's economic model is failing. The economy has been performing badly for more than a decade. Household debt has fuelled the meagre recovery from the crash of 2007-08. Earnings have stagnated, with many families borrowing to cover basic expenses; an estimated 8.3m people cannot keep up with debts or bills. The housing market is in crisis, with young people set to be poorer than their parents. Since the 1980s, the wealthiest have disproportionately benefited from growth, driving high levels of political disillusionment. Action to prevent climate and environmental breakdown, and prepare for their effects, is wholly inadequate.

All political parties in the UK are proposing increases in public spending to meet these challenges. Your headline "Cost of Labour's economic overhaul soars" (September 3) implies that Labour's proposals are unaffordable, but the Office for Budget Responsibility analysis cited ignores the impact of public spending on growth, and thus on tax receipts. As senior IMF economists have noted in their critique of austerity, this relationship is critical. Today the government can borrow at negative real interest rates: many pressing infrastructure, education and environment projects offer returns well above zero and can therefore generate higher future tax receipts, supporting not detracting from fiscal sustainability. Taxation levels in the UK remain lower than in most European countries.


But reform of fiscal policy is not enough. Ownership of capital helps determine in whose interests the economy operates. It is a category error to suggest a mechanism such as an Inclusive Ownership Fund would "cost" companies or that the state will "seize" shares. The proposal neither reduces the book value of corporate entities, nor requires them to pay cash out. By requiring companies to issue new shares and give them to a mutual fund — mirroring the accepted practice of issuing shares for executive compensation — it ensures instead that workers share in the wealth they create.

The UK's economic model has failed before. In both the 1940s and 1980s, major policy changes were made in response. At first seen as overly radical, they were later accepted across the political spectrum. Since 2008 the UK economy has again been failing, with today's political crisis one of the consequences. This is precisely the time when bold ideas are needed from all political parties.

David Blanchflower
Professor of Economics, Dartmouth College; former Monetary Policy Committee member

Victoria Chick
Emeritus Professor of Economics, University College London

Stephany Griffith-Jones
Financial Markets Director, Initiative for Policy Dialogue, Columbia University; Emeritus Professorial Fellow, Institute of Development Studies, University of Sussex

Susan Himmelweit
Professor Emeritus of Economics, Open University

Sir Richard Jolly
Professor, Institute of Development Studies, University of Sussex; former Deputy Director of Unicef

Mariana Mazzucato
Professor in the Economics of Innovation & Public Value; Director, UCL Institute for Innovation & Public Purpose

Thomas Piketty
Professor, Paris School of Economics and EHESS

Dani Rodrik
Professor of Economics, Harvard University

On behalf of 82 signatories.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: ludermor on November 25, 2019, 08:55:36 AM
One of the items on the tories manifesto is the introduiction of ID for Voting which seems to be an massive issue in the UK, what am i missing ? How difficult would it be to have formal ID , in this day and age i cant see you can fuction without ID so surely makes sense to have it?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Owenmoresider on November 25, 2019, 10:00:34 AM
Quote from: ludermor on November 25, 2019, 08:55:36 AM
One of the items on the tories manifesto is the introduiction of ID for Voting which seems to be an massive issue in the UK, what am i missing ? How difficult would it be to have formal ID , in this day and age i cant see you can fuction without ID so surely makes sense to have it?
It is sensible for sure. Also this idea of proxy voting that appears to be permitted surely cannot continue, wide open to abuse.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 25, 2019, 10:10:47 AM
Johnson did a deal with Farage to secure the BXP vote. The deal means no negotiations with the EU after 31/12/20 (increasing the likelihood of no Deal) and nothing softer than a hard Brexit Canada style deal with the EU

https://www.brexitoptions.co.uk/diagram.html
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: ludermor on November 25, 2019, 11:55:36 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 25, 2019, 10:10:47 AM
Johnson did a deal with Farage to secure the BXP vote. The deal means no negotiations with the EU after 31/12/20 (increasing the likelihood of no Deal) and nothing softer than a hard Brexit Canada style deal with the EU

https://www.brexitoptions.co.uk/diagram.html
Johnson has shafted evryone he has dealt with so cant see why this woudl be any different
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 25, 2019, 12:41:58 PM
Johnson is having a woeful campaign as anticipated and is getting badly exposed. All bluster no substance. Will the electorate buy this dumbed down message of 'Get Brexit done?'. Or will he simply win the election with a majority because he is not Corbyn. Jo Swinson is useless as well so this could benefit the Tories but I still think Labour will get a surge come the end of the election as they do tend to run a good campaign. Another hung parliament is still most likely in my book. 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 25, 2019, 01:50:09 PM
There are loads of tactical voting messages flying around on social media.

eg Will Hutton :

To Labour voters living in Richmond,Esher and Wokingham don't waste your vote. Vote LibDem. To LibDem voters in Chingford, Wycombe and Shipley vote Labour. We can be rid of Goldsmith, Raab, Redwood, IDS, Baker and Phillip Davies if you vote tactically.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 25, 2019, 06:11:17 PM
Tory lead down to 7

https://www.mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1XZ23K
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on November 25, 2019, 06:29:38 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 25, 2019, 06:11:17 PM
Tory lead down to 7

https://www.mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1XZ23K

To say you are selective in what you post would be an understatement
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 25, 2019, 07:43:27 PM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 25, 2019, 06:29:38 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 25, 2019, 06:11:17 PM
Tory lead down to 7

https://www.mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1XZ23K

To say you are selective in what you post would be an understatement
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcliR8kAbzc
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Owenmoresider on November 25, 2019, 08:09:22 PM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 25, 2019, 06:29:38 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 25, 2019, 06:11:17 PM
Tory lead down to 7

https://www.mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1XZ23K

To say you are selective in what you post would be an understatement
Too right. I presume that's the ICM poll he is citing. Their other polls in recent weeks had the Tory lead at 7, 8, 10 and now 7, much smaller than any of the other polling companies. Only two other polls out of the 20 odd in the past fortnight have the gap in single figures. And the Tory vote is staying above 40% in all but one of them.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: magpie seanie on November 26, 2019, 09:57:40 AM
Opinion polls in recent elections and referendum in the UK have been inaccurate, even outside their own wide margin of error. You'd have to wonder what purpose they serve. Labour's campaign is going well. A huge number of people registered since the election has been called with the vast majority of them being young voters.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: ludermor on November 26, 2019, 11:11:11 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 26, 2019, 09:57:40 AM
Opinion polls in recent elections and referendum in the UK have been inaccurate, even outside their own wide margin of error. You'd have to wonder what purpose they serve. Labour's campaign is going well. A huge number of people registered since the election has been called with the vast majority of them being young voters.
I wouldnt be confident of a large Labour swing towards the end, i thnk the best senario for them is the collapse of the Lib Dem vote who are performing terribly. Living here it is mad what the people will let the Topies away with, it doent matter what Johnson/Gove/JRM say or do peope dont seem to care but Corbyn is getting absolutely hammered on the anti semitism issue . And i dont buy into the tactical voting organised through twitter, if is happens on the gorund where parties withdraw then fair enough but are there really enough people on twitter to be swayed to vote tactically?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on November 26, 2019, 11:58:26 AM
The Tory-leaning Spectator magazine said when the election was called that Johnson would need the Lib Dems to do well against Labour if he was to get a majority. That ain't going to happen now. Interesting times.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 26, 2019, 12:08:11 PM
Hard to see Boris garner this ad-hoc support;

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-met-enormous-crowd-20938678 (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-met-enormous-crowd-20938678)

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Owenmoresider on November 26, 2019, 12:12:37 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 26, 2019, 12:08:11 PM
Hard to see Boris garner this ad-hoc support;

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-met-enormous-crowd-20938678 (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-met-enormous-crowd-20938678)
Yeah, "ad-hoc"  ;)
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Taylor on November 26, 2019, 12:14:21 PM
So the Mirror are lauding Corbyn and the Scum doing likewise for Boris.

Neither give a flying f**k about what either man will bring to the table.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 26, 2019, 01:04:26 PM
Quote from: Owenmoresider on November 26, 2019, 12:12:37 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 26, 2019, 12:08:11 PM
Hard to see Boris garner this ad-hoc support;

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-met-enormous-crowd-20938678 (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-met-enormous-crowd-20938678)
Yeah, "ad-hoc"  ;)

prefer this:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EIupeX0XYAELfAP?format=jpg&name=medium)
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: knockitdown on November 26, 2019, 01:32:54 PM
Quote from: ludermor on November 26, 2019, 11:11:11 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 26, 2019, 09:57:40 AM
Opinion polls in recent elections and referendum in the UK have been inaccurate, even outside their own wide margin of error. You'd have to wonder what purpose they serve. Labour's campaign is going well. A huge number of people registered since the election has been called with the vast majority of them being young voters.
I wouldnt be confident of a large Labour swing towards the end, i thnk the best senario for them is the collapse of the Lib Dem vote who are performing terribly. Living here it is mad what the people will let the Topies away with, it doent matter what Johnson/Gove/JRM say or do peope dont seem to care but Corbyn is getting absolutely hammered on the anti semitism issue . And i dont buy into the tactical voting organised through twitter, if is happens on the gorund where parties withdraw then fair enough but are there really enough people on twitter to be swayed to vote tactically?

Same can be said here for Foster, Dodds, Wilson, Paisley......
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: bennydorano on November 26, 2019, 01:35:19 PM
I have followed UK politics 365 days a year for as long as I can remember, I've zoned out of this Election a bit as I'm convinced BJ could take a dump on live TV and still win this comfortably. I've seen nothing to change my mind (the implosion of the Brexit party has increased their chances tenfold), Tory majority of anything from 30 to 70 possible.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 26, 2019, 03:31:25 PM
Tactical voting is going to be very significant and polling ignores it.

https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/latest-news-and-research/media-centre/press-releases/new-bmg-poll-finds-almost-a-quarter-of-voters-planning-to-vote-tactically-in-general-election/

https://metro.co.uk/2019/11/13/full-list-peoples-vote-100-candidates-will-decide-election-11089432/
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: magpie seanie on November 26, 2019, 05:00:55 PM
Quote from: Owenmoresider on November 26, 2019, 12:12:37 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 26, 2019, 12:08:11 PM
Hard to see Boris garner this ad-hoc support;

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-met-enormous-crowd-20938678 (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-met-enormous-crowd-20938678)
Yeah, "ad-hoc"  ;)

Johnson would be down serious money to replicate this crowd and the enthusiasm. Corbyn is extremely popular among younger voters....I just hope they get out and vote.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on November 26, 2019, 05:06:12 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 26, 2019, 05:00:55 PM
Quote from: Owenmoresider on November 26, 2019, 12:12:37 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 26, 2019, 12:08:11 PM
Hard to see Boris garner this ad-hoc support;

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-met-enormous-crowd-20938678 (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-met-enormous-crowd-20938678)
Yeah, "ad-hoc"  ;)

Johnson would be down serious money to replicate this crowd and the enthusiasm. Corbyn is extremely popular among younger voters....I just hope they get out and vote.

It's like something you would see in North Korea for Christ's sake
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 26, 2019, 06:12:54 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 26, 2019, 05:00:55 PM
Quote from: Owenmoresider on November 26, 2019, 12:12:37 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 26, 2019, 12:08:11 PM
Hard to see Boris garner this ad-hoc support;

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-met-enormous-crowd-20938678 (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-met-enormous-crowd-20938678)
Yeah, "ad-hoc"  ;)

Johnson would be down serious money to replicate this crowd and the enthusiasm. Corbyn is extremely popular among younger voters....I just hope they get out and vote.
Johnson is quite awkward with the public
The Tories don't have much to offer voters either. 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: ziggy90 on November 26, 2019, 06:42:03 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on November 26, 2019, 01:35:19 PM
I have followed UK politics 365 days a year for as long as I can remember, I've zoned out of this Election a bit as I'm convinced BJ could take a dump on live TV and still win this comfortably. I've seen nothing to change my mind (the implosion of the Brexit party has increased their chances tenfold), Tory majority of anything from 30 to 70 possible.

From what I see and hear here in Birmingham I'm inclined to agree with you. I don't know about a 30 seat win but I do think the Tories will get an overall majority.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on November 26, 2019, 07:26:24 PM
If you had Corbyns politics you would be so pissed off he is so hopeless.

Gonna remain neutral on Brexit but wants a second referendum  :-\

And he has just been absolutely rinsed by Andrew Neill
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on November 26, 2019, 07:37:48 PM
@JohnRentoul The Waspi section of that interview was quite the worst performance by a front line politician I've ever seen
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: armaghniac on November 26, 2019, 08:31:59 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 26, 2019, 05:00:55 PM
Quote from: Owenmoresider on November 26, 2019, 12:12:37 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 26, 2019, 12:08:11 PM
Hard to see Boris garner this ad-hoc support;

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-met-enormous-crowd-20938678 (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-met-enormous-crowd-20938678)
Yeah, "ad-hoc"  ;)

Johnson would be down serious money to replicate this crowd and the enthusiasm. Corbyn is extremely popular among younger voters....I just hope they get out and vote.

They'll probably like his page on Facebook, but not bother their arse voting.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 26, 2019, 09:36:56 PM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 26, 2019, 07:26:24 PM
If you had Corbyns politics you would be so pissed off he is so hopeless.

Gonna remain neutral on Brexit but wants a second referendum  :-\

And he has just been absolutely rinsed by Andrew Neill
Brexit is secondary to fixing the UK economy. Labour voters cover both Leave and Remain. The strategy makes a lot of sense given they don't want to lose anyone.
The Tory deal will hurt voters and might even result  in a no deal
exit.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: omaghjoe on November 27, 2019, 04:48:19 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 26, 2019, 07:37:48 PM
@JohnRentoul The Waspi section of that interview was quite the worst performance by a front line politician I've ever seen

I'm no fan of Corbyn but Neill was just being silly there.... He wouldn't let him speak. Corbyn told him he was gonna borrow which is what he wanted him to get him to say. But then neil still declared he didnt know how he was going to pay for it.
Even mainstream political journalists seem to have surpassed politicians these days with faux outrage and dramatics
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 27, 2019, 07:11:25 AM
The next 2 weeks will probably be vicious. The assaults on Labour will intensify especially if the gap in the polls continues to narrow. There is a huge amount at stake in this election.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on November 27, 2019, 08:48:22 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 27, 2019, 07:11:25 AM
The next 2 weeks will probably be vicious. The assaults on Labour will intensify especially if the gap in the polls continues to narrow. There is a huge amount at stake in this election.

Grow up and get a bit of thicker skin. "Assaults" ffs.

The moaning and whining and bitching from all sides is flat out embarrassing.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: magpie seanie on November 27, 2019, 09:41:39 AM
Quote from: gallsman on November 27, 2019, 08:48:22 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 27, 2019, 07:11:25 AM
The next 2 weeks will probably be vicious. The assaults on Labour will intensify especially if the gap in the polls continues to narrow. There is a huge amount at stake in this election.

Grow up and get a bit of thicker skin. "Assaults" ffs.

The moaning and whining and bitching from all sides is flat out embarrassing.

Labour and Corbyn in particular are the subject of a systematic, baseless smear campaign from the rich and powerful. They're scared of having to pay a fair share of tax. They're scared of the underclasses getting access to affordable education which might give them a leg up in society. They want to maintain the status quo.

The Tories have created this vicious, polarised society largely due to their perverse obsession with Brexit. A society where a prime minister can refer to muslim women as letterboxes and there's hardly a word about it. Where a man who has fought his entire life against inequality and racism is constantly smeared as anti-semitic. Where a female MP gets murdered for campaigning to stay in the EU by a racist nutjob fired up on misplaced fears about immigrants spread by the Tories and their friends. Tell Jo Cox's family to get a thicker skin, good lad.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: t_mac on November 27, 2019, 09:43:46 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on November 26, 2019, 08:31:59 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 26, 2019, 05:00:55 PM
Quote from: Owenmoresider on November 26, 2019, 12:12:37 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 26, 2019, 12:08:11 PM
Hard to see Boris garner this ad-hoc support;

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-met-enormous-crowd-20938678 (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-met-enormous-crowd-20938678)
Yeah, "ad-hoc"  ;)

Johnson would be down serious money to replicate this crowd and the enthusiasm. Corbyn is extremely popular among younger voters....I just hope they get out and vote.

They'll probably like his page on Facebook, but not bother their arse voting.

And then complain they aren't represented.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 27, 2019, 11:38:14 AM
Labour will get the result they deserve by allowing Corbyn lead their party. Not a leader. Not an orator. Not credible.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 27, 2019, 12:04:23 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 27, 2019, 11:38:14 AM
Labour will get the result they deserve by allowing Corbyn lead their party. Not a leader. Not an orator. Not credible.

I'm in two minds about Corbyn..

Some things I totally agree with and other things I just can't get my head around.

The Antisemitism thing is largely stirred up by the right wing press conflating criticism of Israel with antisemitism and they're two different things BUT when there are issues with downright antisemitism then deal with them FFS.

The more Corbyn goes on the more I think that he's so intransigent in his dogma that even when an open goal presents itself he's so inflexible that he misses the ball let alone the goals.

I just think he'll get to put the manifesto of his liking to the people and if he gets a majority he'll go with it, if he doesn't I think he has to step down.

Problem is Len McCluskey won't want a Keir Starmer type figure take over if Corbyn does go.

Boris on the other hand has no moral fibre, compass, whatever and will do and say anything to get into power but the people will decide.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Denn Forever on November 27, 2019, 12:05:42 PM
It seems to be the case that if you repeat something often enough, people take it as gospel.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 27, 2019, 12:12:52 PM
Let's just remember that the majority of people working within the media will be losers under Corbyn's proposed manifesto. They are likely to be Tory voters and the majority of newspapers in the UK are Tory leaning due largely to economic policies. They have carried out another relentless assault job on Corbyn since the date the election was announced yet his vote is still holding up albeit not growing in any meaningful way based on polling. Whatever about policies Corbyn is real life, Johnson and his media sympathisers are anything but, theirs is a sheltered privileged world totally removed from the realities of daily life. 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 27, 2019, 12:21:56 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 27, 2019, 12:04:23 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 27, 2019, 11:38:14 AM
Labour will get the result they deserve by allowing Corbyn lead their party. Not a leader. Not an orator. Not credible.

I'm in two minds about Corbyn..

Some things I totally agree with and other things I just can't get my head around.

The Antisemitism thing is largely stirred up by the right wing press conflating criticism of Israel with antisemitism and they're two different things BUT when there are issues with downright antisemitism then deal with them FFS.

The more Corbyn goes on the more I think that he's so intransigent in his dogma that even when an open goal presents itself he's so inflexible that he misses the ball let alone the goals.

I just think he'll get to put the manifesto of his liking to the people and if he gets a majority he'll go with it, if he doesn't I think he has to step down.

Problem is Len McCluskey won't want a Keir Starmer type figure take over if Corbyn does go.

Boris on the other hand has no moral fibre, compass, whatever and will do and say anything to get into power but the people will decide.

Corbyn has  already apologised. He keeps on being asked to. The reason he keeps being attacked is Israel which is scared that its impunity over human rights abuses will be stopped.

Johnson is a cokehead. 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 27, 2019, 12:27:22 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 27, 2019, 12:12:52 PM
Let's just remember that the majority of people working within the media will be losers under Corbyn's proposed manifesto. They are likely to be Tory voters and the majority of newspapers in the UK are Tory leaning due largely to economic policies. They have carried out another relentless assault job on Corbyn since the date the election was announced yet his vote is still holding up albeit not growing in any meaningful way based on polling. Whatever about policies Corbyn is real life, Johnson and his media sympathisers are anything but, theirs is a sheltered privileged world totally removed from the realities of daily life.

This Labour no.1 excuse. The media are against us.
There is far too much weight put on this and it needs to be called out.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: DuffleKing on November 27, 2019, 12:27:58 PM
I think we're looking at a hung parliament and that will be for the best via coalition. On the brexit issue, that will guarantee a second referendum - no matter who Boris partners with - and it will therefore be resolved once and for all in some shape or form.

Five more years of a Tory government - especially one led by Johnson and the ERG - will cement the hunger for Scottish independence and should be enough to move this island very close to a border poll that could produce unity.

From a Labour perspective, the election will be a line in the sand. I think there is a huge groundswell for social justice and reform to politics that will return that society to one that puts its people first. Corbyn has that outlook and his manifesto bears it out but he just isn't a charismatic enough leader to pursuade people that it can work. That said, the british machine has attacked and denigrated him ceaselessly since he became Labour leader to minimise his credibility and electability. The City of London and the Eton brigade have ensured that press corps stay on attack around labour and socialism to make it seem like they couldn't possibly be a sensible option.

It is the same in the US - Bernie Sanders scares the sh1t out of big business and capitalism broadly. Heaven forbid the working classes would awaken and begin to understand in enough numbers that sensible socialist policies can create a society that still allows economic growth and but cares for people who need cared for and allows people a work / life balance that will be a first step to addressing the mental health and overall wellbeing crisis.

Whoever takes over Labour next has a big challenge to face down the traditional british establishment but an even bigger opportunity to build a platform that makes socialist policies not just acceptable but seen as progressive.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: magpie seanie on November 27, 2019, 12:36:07 PM
The problem with the sord "socialism" is that most people don't understand what it means. Due to what they're constantly fed via the right wing media this work invokes images of Eastern Europe and supermarkets with empty shelves. When in fact what we're talking about is something akin to France or Norway.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 27, 2019, 12:42:28 PM
Quote from: DuffleKing on November 27, 2019, 12:27:58 PM
I think we're looking at a hung parliament and that will be for the best via coalition. On the brexit issue, that will guarantee a second referendum - no matter who Boris partners with - and it will therefore be resolved once and for all in some shape or form.

Five more years of a Tory government - especially one led by Johnson and the ERG - will cement the hunger for Scottish independence and should be enough to move this island very close to a border poll that could produce unity.

From a Labour perspective, the election will be a line in the sand. I think there is a huge groundswell for social justice and reform to politics that will return that society to one that puts its people first. Corbyn has that outlook and his manifesto bears it out but he just isn't a charismatic enough leader to pursuade people that it can work. That said, the british machine has attacked and denigrated him ceaselessly since he became Labour leader to minimise his credibility and electability. The City of London and the Eton brigade have ensured that press corps stay on attack around labour and socialism to make it seem like they couldn't possibly be a sensible option.

It is the same in the US - Bernie Sanders scares the sh1t out of big business and capitalism broadly. Heaven forbid the working classes would awaken and begin to understand in enough numbers that sensible socialist policies can create a society that still allows economic growth and but cares for people who need cared for and allows people a work / life balance that will be a first step to addressing the mental health and overall wellbeing crisis.

Whoever takes over Labour next has a big challenge to face down the traditional british establishment but an even bigger opportunity to build a platform that makes socialist policies not just acceptable but seen as progressive.

Would be in total agreement with this.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 27, 2019, 01:17:34 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 27, 2019, 12:27:22 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 27, 2019, 12:12:52 PM
Let's just remember that the majority of people working within the media will be losers under Corbyn's proposed manifesto. They are likely to be Tory voters and the majority of newspapers in the UK are Tory leaning due largely to economic policies. They have carried out another relentless assault job on Corbyn since the date the election was announced yet his vote is still holding up albeit not growing in any meaningful way based on polling. Whatever about policies Corbyn is real life, Johnson and his media sympathisers are anything but, theirs is a sheltered privileged world totally removed from the realities of daily life.

This Labour no.1 excuse. The media are against us.
There is far too much weight put on this and it needs to be called out.

I've taken to "following" Laura Kuenssberg and there's a definite trait to her tweets.

She went after Corbyn for not outright apologising for anti-semitism but when this morning when Corbyn produced the trade documents her first instinct was to challenge their veracity and then to suggest that there's nothing in them..

Have a wee gander for yourself.

Make no mistake post Brexit the US will have the UK under the cosh and will get whatever concessions it wants out of the UK government and pharma will be at the front of the queue.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 27, 2019, 01:22:18 PM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 26, 2019, 07:26:24 PM
Gonna remain neutral on Brexit but wants a second referendum  :-\

What is the actual problem you have with this?

Not being neutral isn't in itself a solution and I think we can agree isn't a solution at all.

Swinson isn't neutral but her position is completely laughable

Johnson isn't neutral but look at the detail of his deal and ponder why he won't rule out no deal,
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Taylor on November 27, 2019, 01:23:23 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 27, 2019, 12:27:22 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 27, 2019, 12:12:52 PM
Let's just remember that the majority of people working within the media will be losers under Corbyn's proposed manifesto. They are likely to be Tory voters and the majority of newspapers in the UK are Tory leaning due largely to economic policies. They have carried out another relentless assault job on Corbyn since the date the election was announced yet his vote is still holding up albeit not growing in any meaningful way based on polling. Whatever about policies Corbyn is real life, Johnson and his media sympathisers are anything but, theirs is a sheltered privileged world totally removed from the realities of daily life.

This Labour no.1 excuse. The media are against us.
There is far too much weight put on this and it needs to be called out.

Disagree.

The red tops dictate who many of their readers will actually vote for
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on November 27, 2019, 01:24:29 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 27, 2019, 01:17:34 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 27, 2019, 12:27:22 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 27, 2019, 12:12:52 PM
Let's just remember that the majority of people working within the media will be losers under Corbyn's proposed manifesto. They are likely to be Tory voters and the majority of newspapers in the UK are Tory leaning due largely to economic policies. They have carried out another relentless assault job on Corbyn since the date the election was announced yet his vote is still holding up albeit not growing in any meaningful way based on polling. Whatever about policies Corbyn is real life, Johnson and his media sympathisers are anything but, theirs is a sheltered privileged world totally removed from the realities of daily life.

This Labour no.1 excuse. The media are against us.
There is far too much weight put on this and it needs to be called out.

I've taken to "following" Laura Kuenssberg and there's a definite trait to her tweets.

She went after Corbyn for not outright apologising for anti-semitism but when this morning when Corbyn produced the trade documents her first instinct was to challenge their veracity and then to suggest that there's nothing in them..

Have a wee gander for yourself.

Make no mistake post Brexit the US will have the UK under the cosh and will get whatever concessions it wants out of the UK government and pharma will be at the front of the queue.

Not just Laura Keunnsberg has challenged the veracity of what Corbyn is saying, do some research folks, think some think Corbyn, a man that want to run the country shouldn't be challenged on anything and if he is you are some sort of right wing maniac, and Owen Jones should be the only person allowed to interview Corbyn 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 27, 2019, 01:26:27 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 27, 2019, 04:48:19 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 26, 2019, 07:37:48 PM
@JohnRentoul The Waspi section of that interview was quite the worst performance by a front line politician I've ever seen

I'm no fan of Corbyn but Neill was just being silly there.... He wouldn't let him speak. Corbyn told him he was gonna borrow which is what he wanted him to get him to say. But then neil still declared he didnt know how he was going to pay for it.
Even mainstream political journalists seem to have surpassed politicians these days with faux outrage and dramatics

The key is how difficult a time Neil will give Johnson. Neil is the editor and chairman of The Spectator. Not exactly neutral. He pays the wages of Rod Liddle. Not exactly got clean hands on the issue or racism. He has paid Boris a wage in the past.

There are real issues about BoJo, the Tory campaign, their manifest, the people around BoJo etc. Neil needs to hit these issues hard
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 27, 2019, 01:26:53 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 27, 2019, 01:17:34 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 27, 2019, 12:27:22 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 27, 2019, 12:12:52 PM
Let's just remember that the majority of people working within the media will be losers under Corbyn's proposed manifesto. They are likely to be Tory voters and the majority of newspapers in the UK are Tory leaning due largely to economic policies. They have carried out another relentless assault job on Corbyn since the date the election was announced yet his vote is still holding up albeit not growing in any meaningful way based on polling. Whatever about policies Corbyn is real life, Johnson and his media sympathisers are anything but, theirs is a sheltered privileged world totally removed from the realities of daily life.

This Labour no.1 excuse. The media are against us.
There is far too much weight put on this and it needs to be called out.

I've taken to "following" Laura Kuenssberg and there's a definite trait to her tweets.

She went after Corbyn for not outright apologising for anti-semitism but when this morning when Corbyn produced the trade documents her first instinct was to challenge their veracity and then to suggest that there's nothing in them..

Have a wee gander for yourself.

Make no mistake post Brexit the US will have the UK under the cosh and will get whatever concessions it wants out of the UK government and pharma will be at the front of the queue.
The NHS will be first
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 27, 2019, 01:29:46 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 27, 2019, 12:12:52 PM
Let's just remember that the majority of people working within the media will be losers under Corbyn's proposed manifesto. They are likely to be Tory voters and the majority of newspapers in the UK are Tory leaning due largely to economic policies. They have carried out another relentless assault job on Corbyn since the date the election was announced yet his vote is still holding up albeit not growing in any meaningful way based on polling. Whatever about policies Corbyn is real life, Johnson and his media sympathisers are anything but, theirs is a sheltered privileged world totally removed from the realities of daily life.

https://evolvepolitics.com/bbc-chiefs-say-its-wrong-to-expose-boris-johnsons-lies-because-it-undermines-trust-in-democracy/

The playing field certainly isn't level
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 27, 2019, 01:55:35 PM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 27, 2019, 01:24:29 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 27, 2019, 01:17:34 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 27, 2019, 12:27:22 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 27, 2019, 12:12:52 PM
Let's just remember that the majority of people working within the media will be losers under Corbyn's proposed manifesto. They are likely to be Tory voters and the majority of newspapers in the UK are Tory leaning due largely to economic policies. They have carried out another relentless assault job on Corbyn since the date the election was announced yet his vote is still holding up albeit not growing in any meaningful way based on polling. Whatever about policies Corbyn is real life, Johnson and his media sympathisers are anything but, theirs is a sheltered privileged world totally removed from the realities of daily life.

This Labour no.1 excuse. The media are against us.
There is far too much weight put on this and it needs to be called out.

I've taken to "following" Laura Kuenssberg and there's a definite trait to her tweets.

She went after Corbyn for not outright apologising for anti-semitism but when this morning when Corbyn produced the trade documents her first instinct was to challenge their veracity and then to suggest that there's nothing in them..

Have a wee gander for yourself.

Make no mistake post Brexit the US will have the UK under the cosh and will get whatever concessions it wants out of the UK government and pharma will be at the front of the queue.

Not just Laura Keunnsberg has challenged the veracity of what Corbyn is saying, do some research folks, think some think Corbyn, a man that want to run the country shouldn't be challenged on anything and if he is you are some sort of right wing maniac, and Owen Jones should be the only person allowed to interview Corbyn

She was challenging the veracity of the leaked documents which from some accounts have been available for a few weeks on Reddit.

Not saying Corbyn shouldn't be challenged but there's a more aggressive manner as to how he's interviewed than those letting Boris get away with his buffoonery.

It will be interesting how Neil goes after Boris.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 27, 2019, 02:04:31 PM
If people think that the vast majority of voters are sitting down to read The Spectator magazine then I don't know what to say. Look around you. Look at who everyday people vote for in NI, in the UK, in Ireland. Get real. Blaming the traditional media is a lame excuse. Go out and ask 10 people on the street who Owen Jones is, who Rod Liddle is and who Patrick Maguire is.
In 1997 it "was the sun wot won it" today the media has been disrupted and no longer holds the same clout.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on November 27, 2019, 02:06:46 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 27, 2019, 01:26:27 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 27, 2019, 04:48:19 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 26, 2019, 07:37:48 PM
@JohnRentoul The Waspi section of that interview was quite the worst performance by a front line politician I've ever seen

I'm no fan of Corbyn but Neill was just being silly there.... He wouldn't let him speak. Corbyn told him he was gonna borrow which is what he wanted him to get him to say. But then neil still declared he didnt know how he was going to pay for it.
Even mainstream political journalists seem to have surpassed politicians these days with faux outrage and dramatics

The key is how difficult a time Neil will give Johnson. Neil is the editor and chairman of The Spectator. Not exactly neutral. He pays the wages of Rod Liddle. Not exactly got clean hands on the issue or racism. He has paid Boris a wage in the past.

There are real issues about BoJo, the Tory campaign, their manifest, the people around BoJo etc. Neil needs to hit these issues hard

Have you EVER heard anyone say he is anything other than fair and equitable to all who he interviews as in he skewers them all, no doubt regardless of how he deals with Johnson people with their preconceived prejudices will think he has got an easy ride.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Walter Cronc on November 27, 2019, 02:08:52 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 27, 2019, 01:17:34 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 27, 2019, 12:27:22 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 27, 2019, 12:12:52 PM
Let's just remember that the majority of people working within the media will be losers under Corbyn's proposed manifesto. They are likely to be Tory voters and the majority of newspapers in the UK are Tory leaning due largely to economic policies. They have carried out another relentless assault job on Corbyn since the date the election was announced yet his vote is still holding up albeit not growing in any meaningful way based on polling. Whatever about policies Corbyn is real life, Johnson and his media sympathisers are anything but, theirs is a sheltered privileged world totally removed from the realities of daily life.

This Labour no.1 excuse. The media are against us.
There is far too much weight put on this and it needs to be called out.

I've taken to "following" Laura Kuenssberg and there's a definite trait to her tweets.

She went after Corbyn for not outright apologising for anti-semitism but when this morning when Corbyn produced the trade documents her first instinct was to challenge their veracity and then to suggest that there's nothing in them..

Have a wee gander for yourself.

Make no mistake post Brexit the US will have the UK under the cosh and will get whatever concessions it wants out of the UK government and pharma will be at the front of the queue.

A vile individual. Much like Swinson I never trust a union loving Scot.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: DuffleKing on November 27, 2019, 02:41:54 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 27, 2019, 01:26:27 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 27, 2019, 04:48:19 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 26, 2019, 07:37:48 PM
@JohnRentoul The Waspi section of that interview was quite the worst performance by a front line politician I've ever seen

I'm no fan of Corbyn but Neill was just being silly there.... He wouldn't let him speak. Corbyn told him he was gonna borrow which is what he wanted him to get him to say. But then neil still declared he didnt know how he was going to pay for it.
Even mainstream political journalists seem to have surpassed politicians these days with faux outrage and dramatics

The key is how difficult a time Neil will give Johnson. Neil is the editor and chairman of The Spectator. Not exactly neutral. He pays the wages of Rod Liddle. Not exactly got clean hands on the issue or racism. He has paid Boris a wage in the past.

There are real issues about BoJo, the Tory campaign, their manifest, the people around BoJo etc. Neil needs to hit these issues hard

I really can't see Bojo turning up for Neil
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 27, 2019, 03:15:25 PM
Quote from: DuffleKing on November 27, 2019, 02:41:54 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 27, 2019, 01:26:27 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 27, 2019, 04:48:19 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 26, 2019, 07:37:48 PM
@JohnRentoul The Waspi section of that interview was quite the worst performance by a front line politician I've ever seen

I'm no fan of Corbyn but Neill was just being silly there.... He wouldn't let him speak. Corbyn told him he was gonna borrow which is what he wanted him to get him to say. But then neil still declared he didnt know how he was going to pay for it.
Even mainstream political journalists seem to have surpassed politicians these days with faux outrage and dramatics

The key is how difficult a time Neil will give Johnson. Neil is the editor and chairman of The Spectator. Not exactly neutral. He pays the wages of Rod Liddle. Not exactly got clean hands on the issue or racism. He has paid Boris a wage in the past.

There are real issues about BoJo, the Tory campaign, their manifest, the people around BoJo etc. Neil needs to hit these issues hard

I really can't see Bojo turning up for Neil

That would be brazen
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 27, 2019, 03:20:23 PM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 27, 2019, 02:06:46 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 27, 2019, 01:26:27 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 27, 2019, 04:48:19 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 26, 2019, 07:37:48 PM
@JohnRentoul The Waspi section of that interview was quite the worst performance by a front line politician I've ever seen

I'm no fan of Corbyn but Neill was just being silly there.... He wouldn't let him speak. Corbyn told him he was gonna borrow which is what he wanted him to get him to say. But then neil still declared he didnt know how he was going to pay for it.
Even mainstream political journalists seem to have surpassed politicians these days with faux outrage and dramatics

The key is how difficult a time Neil will give Johnson. Neil is the editor and chairman of The Spectator. Not exactly neutral. He pays the wages of Rod Liddle. Not exactly got clean hands on the issue or racism. He has paid Boris a wage in the past.

There are real issues about BoJo, the Tory campaign, their manifest, the people around BoJo etc. Neil needs to hit these issues hard

Have you EVER heard anyone say he is anything other than fair and equitable to all who he interviews as in he skewers them all, no doubt regardless of how he deals with Johnson people with their preconceived prejudices will think he has got an easy ride.

Im saying he needs to hit him hard. If he doesn't there will be a reaction. Not sure what the problem with that is.

Neil is definitely not impartial when he is away from the BBC. Don't think anybody can doubt that. We can say for certain where his sympathies lie. On the BBC I agree Brillo grills whoever is in front of him. But BBC's attitude to BoJo and calling him out will come under scrutiny again if Brillo pulls in his claws 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 27, 2019, 03:30:06 PM
Quote from: DuffleKing on November 27, 2019, 02:41:54 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 27, 2019, 01:26:27 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 27, 2019, 04:48:19 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 26, 2019, 07:37:48 PM
@JohnRentoul The Waspi section of that interview was quite the worst performance by a front line politician I've ever seen

I'm no fan of Corbyn but Neill was just being silly there.... He wouldn't let him speak. Corbyn told him he was gonna borrow which is what he wanted him to get him to say. But then neil still declared he didnt know how he was going to pay for it.
Even mainstream political journalists seem to have surpassed politicians these days with faux outrage and dramatics

The key is how difficult a time Neil will give Johnson. Neil is the editor and chairman of The Spectator. Not exactly neutral. He pays the wages of Rod Liddle. Not exactly got clean hands on the issue or racism. He has paid Boris a wage in the past.

There are real issues about BoJo, the Tory campaign, their manifest, the people around BoJo etc. Neil needs to hit these issues hard

I really can't see Bojo turning up for Neil
He isn't going to turn up . "BBC unable to fix a date" per the New European

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/bbc-andrew-neil-interview-with-boris-johnson-1-6397380
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 27, 2019, 03:44:17 PM
BBC shouldn't have aired anything until they had agreement from all the Party Leaders they would attend. The Conservatives have run the most bland nothing campaign ever and they're still going to win easy it's disgusting. As long as Boris doesn't f**k up the campaign team are happy.

There is no way that slimey sneaky f**k is going on for Neil to destroy him. Peston has made mince meat of him before as well so he'll not go near him either. f**king Kuenssberg will get some time with him on the campaign trail to throw a load of softballs at him.

Bullshit!!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Franko on November 27, 2019, 04:03:40 PM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 27, 2019, 02:06:46 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 27, 2019, 01:26:27 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 27, 2019, 04:48:19 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 26, 2019, 07:37:48 PM
@JohnRentoul The Waspi section of that interview was quite the worst performance by a front line politician I've ever seen

I'm no fan of Corbyn but Neill was just being silly there.... He wouldn't let him speak. Corbyn told him he was gonna borrow which is what he wanted him to get him to say. But then neil still declared he didnt know how he was going to pay for it.
Even mainstream political journalists seem to have surpassed politicians these days with faux outrage and dramatics

The key is how difficult a time Neil will give Johnson. Neil is the editor and chairman of The Spectator. Not exactly neutral. He pays the wages of Rod Liddle. Not exactly got clean hands on the issue or racism. He has paid Boris a wage in the past.

There are real issues about BoJo, the Tory campaign, their manifest, the people around BoJo etc. Neil needs to hit these issues hard

Have you EVER heard anyone say he is anything other than fair and equitable to all who he interviews as in he skewers them all, no doubt regardless of how he deals with Johnson people with their preconceived prejudices will think he has got an easy ride.

Yes, many times.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Franko on November 27, 2019, 04:08:17 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 27, 2019, 03:44:17 PM
BBC shouldn't have aired anything until they had agreement from all the Party Leaders they would attend. The Conservatives have run the most bland nothing campaign ever and they're still going to win easy it's disgusting. As long as Boris doesn't f**k up the campaign team are happy.

There is no way that slimey sneaky f**k is going on for Neil to destroy him. Peston has made mince meat of him before as well so he'll not go near him either. f**king Kuenssberg will get some time with him on the campaign trail to throw a load of softballs at him.

Bullshit!!

That's a blunder from Corbyn / Sturgeon's PR people as much as anything.

Should have been part of the contract that nothing gets aired until all candidates agree to interviews and those interviews have been recorded.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 27, 2019, 04:14:33 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 27, 2019, 04:08:17 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 27, 2019, 03:44:17 PM
BBC shouldn't have aired anything until they had agreement from all the Party Leaders they would attend. The Conservatives have run the most bland nothing campaign ever and they're still going to win easy it's disgusting. As long as Boris doesn't f**k up the campaign team are happy.

There is no way that slimey sneaky f**k is going on for Neil to destroy him. Peston has made mince meat of him before as well so he'll not go near him either. f**king Kuenssberg will get some time with him on the campaign trail to throw a load of softballs at him.

Bullshit!!

That's a blunder from Corbyn / Sturgeon's PR people as much as anything.

Should have been part of the contract that nothing gets aired until all candidates agree to interviews and those interviews have been recorded.

So Johnson has run scared from Neil but yet it is Corbyn's fault for agreeing!!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 27, 2019, 04:47:18 PM
Irish Times

..."polls point to a tightening in the contest with Labour moving upwards and narrowing the gap with the Conservatives. Kantar has the Tory lead over Labour at 10 points, down from 18 last week and ICM puts the Conservative lead at seven points, down from 10 last week."

7 or below increases the likelihood of a hung Parliament
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 27, 2019, 04:57:48 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 27, 2019, 04:08:17 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 27, 2019, 03:44:17 PM
BBC shouldn't have aired anything until they had agreement from all the Party Leaders they would attend. The Conservatives have run the most bland nothing campaign ever and they're still going to win easy it's disgusting. As long as Boris doesn't f**k up the campaign team are happy.

There is no way that slimey sneaky f**k is going on for Neil to destroy him. Peston has made mince meat of him before as well so he'll not go near him either. f**king Kuenssberg will get some time with him on the campaign trail to throw a load of softballs at him.

Bullshit!!

That's a blunder from Corbyn / Sturgeon's PR people as much as anything.

Should have been part of the contract that nothing gets aired until all candidates agree to interviews and those interviews have been recorded.

Corbyn's team were told that Johnson had agreed to do the interview next week!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 27, 2019, 05:17:03 PM
He may not have yet agreed the timings but I still reckon BoJo will do the interview. He should not have been allowed to pick and choose the timings
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Franko on November 27, 2019, 05:28:53 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 27, 2019, 04:14:33 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 27, 2019, 04:08:17 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 27, 2019, 03:44:17 PM
BBC shouldn't have aired anything until they had agreement from all the Party Leaders they would attend. The Conservatives have run the most bland nothing campaign ever and they're still going to win easy it's disgusting. As long as Boris doesn't f**k up the campaign team are happy.

There is no way that slimey sneaky f**k is going on for Neil to destroy him. Peston has made mince meat of him before as well so he'll not go near him either. f**king Kuenssberg will get some time with him on the campaign trail to throw a load of softballs at him.

Bullshit!!

That's a blunder from Corbyn / Sturgeon's PR people as much as anything.

Should have been part of the contract that nothing gets aired until all candidates agree to interviews and those interviews have been recorded.

So Johnson has run scared from Neil but yet it is Corbyn's fault for agreeing!!

Calm down.

I'm just pointing out that with a slippy fcuker like Johnson, you can't leave that sort of thing to chance.

IF... it's true that BoJo has wriggled out of it, someone in Corbyn's election team should be getting a rocket.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Franko on November 27, 2019, 05:32:38 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 27, 2019, 04:57:48 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 27, 2019, 04:08:17 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 27, 2019, 03:44:17 PM
BBC shouldn't have aired anything until they had agreement from all the Party Leaders they would attend. The Conservatives have run the most bland nothing campaign ever and they're still going to win easy it's disgusting. As long as Boris doesn't f**k up the campaign team are happy.

There is no way that slimey sneaky f**k is going on for Neil to destroy him. Peston has made mince meat of him before as well so he'll not go near him either. f**king Kuenssberg will get some time with him on the campaign trail to throw a load of softballs at him.

Bullshit!!

That's a blunder from Corbyn / Sturgeon's PR people as much as anything.

Should have been part of the contract that nothing gets aired until all candidates agree to interviews and those interviews have been recorded.

Corbyn's team were told that Johnson had agreed to do the interview next week!

Good for them.  But even I'd know that you shouldn't trust a thing from that cnut.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 27, 2019, 07:17:12 PM
Johnson is a poor leader and this confirms it. The Tories must be worried with 2 weeks left. They are playing a very safety first campaign and did the bare minimum with the manifesto. Johnson could still f**k everything up.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 27, 2019, 07:45:23 PM
In N Belfast with Paddy Power Finucane is now level pegging with Dodds
https://www.paddypower.com/politics/northern-ireland-constituencies
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 27, 2019, 08:42:16 PM
Kuenssberg will interview Johnson instead of Neil on Friday

https://twitter.com/BBCPoIiticsUK/status/1199765871893368833
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 27, 2019, 08:49:41 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 27, 2019, 08:42:16 PM
Kuenssberg will interview Johnson instead of Neil on Friday

https://twitter.com/BBCPoIiticsUK/status/1199765871893368833

Donald interviews Boris. 2 complete twats together.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: SLIGONIAN on November 27, 2019, 09:00:06 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on November 27, 2019, 08:49:41 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 27, 2019, 08:42:16 PM
Kuenssberg will interview Johnson instead of Neil on Friday

https://twitter.com/BBCPoIiticsUK/status/1199765871893368833

Donald interviews Boris. 2 complete t**ts together.
She is a Tory propaganda machine masquerading as a BBC journalist.

Labour shouldnt of fallen for this though I agree.

The NHS document released today will get votes for Labour so there is hope yet and 4.1 m newly registered voters 70% under 35 could swing in Labours favour. The amount of lies from the Tories and disinformation is quite shocking but not surprising all aided and abated by a Tory MSM inc BBC.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Main Street on November 27, 2019, 09:15:04 PM
BBC admits 'mistake' in editing out laughter at Johnson in TV debate

The BBC has claimed it made a "mistake" in editing a clip where it cut out an audience laughing at Boris Johnson, insisting the decision was made due to time constraints rather than political bias.

In the Question Time leaders' debate special, broadcast on BBC One on Friday night, an audience member asked the prime minister: "How important is it for someone in your position of power to always tell the truth?"

Her question to Johnson was met with laughter, followed by applause, with Johnson struggling to reply. But in the version shown on the following day's lunchtime news bulletin the laughter had been removed, with the BBC initially saying the edit had been made for time reasons before it rowed back and admitted its error


https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/nov/25/bbc-admits-mistake-in-editing-out-laughter-at-johnson-in-tv-debate
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 27, 2019, 09:59:18 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 27, 2019, 08:42:16 PM
Kuenssberg will interview Johnson instead of Neil on Friday

https://twitter.com/BBCPoIiticsUK/status/1199765871893368833

Spoof account that's not true/hasn't officially been announced yet!!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on November 27, 2019, 10:00:20 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 27, 2019, 09:59:18 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 27, 2019, 08:42:16 PM
Kuenssberg will interview Johnson instead of Neil on Friday

https://twitter.com/BBCPoIiticsUK/status/1199765871893368833

Spoof account that's not true/hasn't officially been announced yet!!

Some of you lads would need to take a wee rest, especially you Seafoid
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 27, 2019, 10:08:42 PM
Labour looked fucked according to latest yougov poll.
YouGov / Times MRP

Con 359 (+42)
Lab 211 (-51)
Lib Dem 13 (+1)
SNP 43 (+8)
Plaid 4 (-)
Green 1 (-)
Speaker 1 (-)

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on November 27, 2019, 10:09:37 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 27, 2019, 10:08:42 PM
Labour looked fucked according to latest yougov poll.
YouGov / Times MRP

Con 359 (+42)
Lab 211 (-51)
Lib Dem 13 (+1)
SNP 43 (+8)
Plaid 4 (-)
Green 1 (-)
Speaker 1 (-)

This model is the only one that predicted the hung parliament in 2017 so we will see
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: omaghjoe on November 27, 2019, 10:28:10 PM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 27, 2019, 10:09:37 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 27, 2019, 10:08:42 PM
Labour looked fucked according to latest yougov poll.
YouGov / Times MRP

Con 359 (+42)
Lab 211 (-51)
Lib Dem 13 (+1)
SNP 43 (+8)
Plaid 4 (-)
Green 1 (-)
Speaker 1 (-)

This model is the only one that predicted the hung parliament in 2017 so we will see

I saw in one of these seat predictor polls that Alliance would have 3 seats, in reality they would be very lucky to get any which lead me to think that these things are BS

The other problem with using previous performance is that the variables change everytime, so a formula might have been good (or lucky) in 17 might be way of this time around
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on November 27, 2019, 10:34:54 PM
Betting odds:

Tory overall majority: 4/9
No overall majority: 5/2
Labour majority: 25/1

Damned if I know how Johnson's doing it, but he seems to be winning. I'm getting the same sinking feeling I got in 2016 when it started to look like Trump had a chance.

Maybe the "antisemitism" muck is sticking.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: under the bar on November 27, 2019, 11:31:50 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 27, 2019, 10:34:54 PM
Betting odds:

Tory overall majority: 4/9
No overall majority: 5/2
Labour majority: 25/1

Damned if I know how Johnson's doing it, but he seems to be winning. I'm getting the same sinking feeling I got in 2016 when it started to look like Trump had a chance.

Maybe the "antisemitism" muck is sticking.

You can rule Labour out as irrelevant. Any opposition that couldn't win an election through all the years of austerity and Brexit fuckwittery clearly don't deserve to lead.

At this stage I'd much prefer a clear Johnston majority than a hung parliament and DUP with a voting influence.  As much a **** as he is he couldn't give a f**k about Ireland or the Northern Union. If hard Brexit is his aim he's more likely to shaft the latter.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on November 28, 2019, 01:03:49 AM
Dear Seafoid,

I would make an educated guess, you voted against Brexit and lost. You were for Clinton and hated the idea of Trump winning. Now you are going to get the treble up, as you cannot see the Tories are going to swot away Labour, you are grasping at straws thinking a miracle will occur in the next fortnight.
Also Finucane will not beat Dodds, too much riding on it for the latter....can you call one election correctly?.

Brace yourself for Brexit, and as I have written previously on this thread, it accelerates the prospect of a border poll and then the possibility of a United Ireland.


One other item that Left/labour fans fail to answer, if the Labour party were discriminating against its Islamic members in the manner in which it is systematically doing so against the Jewish brethren, I am certain all the leftist/socialist/Marxists would be up in arms.....why all the denial, ignore the elephant in the room stuff?. the policy is an underhand one of banish the jews, welcome with open arms the Muslims, now seen as the safest voting block for the Labour.   
What is puzzling is that Labour advocates all this snowflake social policy of pro choice abortion, same sex marriage, whatever you want gender wise and liberal education.....yet their Islamic friends are totally against these policies, look at what is happening in education in Birmingham for example, when the policy/religion clash occurs.

when they build up sufficient numbers, the muslims will abandon Labour and set up their own fundamentalist party in Britain and then Labour will be as relevant as the Labour party in the south of Ireland.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on November 28, 2019, 07:17:01 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 27, 2019, 09:41:39 AM
Quote from: gallsman on November 27, 2019, 08:48:22 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 27, 2019, 07:11:25 AM
The next 2 weeks will probably be vicious. The assaults on Labour will intensify especially if the gap in the polls continues to narrow. There is a huge amount at stake in this election.

Grow up and get a bit of thicker skin. "Assaults" ffs.

The moaning and whining and bitching from all sides is flat out embarrassing.

Labour and Corbyn in particular are the subject of a systematic, baseless smear campaign from the rich and powerful. They're scared of having to pay a fair share of tax. They're scared of the underclasses getting access to affordable education which might give them a leg up in society. They want to maintain the status quo.


This is, frankly, complete and utter bollox. Baseless? Pull the other one.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 28, 2019, 08:36:01 AM
Cummings says the result is too close to call but Yougov is very confident

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/11/27/election-result-close-call-warns-dominic-cummings/

A hung Parliament remains "a very real possibility", Boris Johnson's most senior adviser has warned, as he insisted the Tories and Labour are much closer than polls suggest.
Dominic Cummings voiced fears about complacency costing the Conservatives the election

A YouGov poll on Wednesday night predicted the Conservatives would win a 68-seat majority by taking seats in Labour heartlands in the north and Midlands.
The seat-by-seat analysis, using a technique that correctly predicted the 2017 hung parliament, suggests the Tories will win 359 seats, Labour 211, the Liberal Democrats 13, SNP 43 and other parties 24.

If the prediction proved correct, it would be the largest number of seats won by the Tories since 1987 and the fewest seats won by Labour since Michael Foot's disastrous performance in 1983.
YouGov suggests the Tories will break down Labour's "red wall" from the Midlands to the north.
Among 44 Labour seats that YouGov predicts the Tories will take are the West Bromwich East seat vacated by departing Labour deputy leader Tom Watson, and the Bolsover seat held by Dennis Skinner since 1970.
The Conservatives are also predicted to pick up Darlington, Scunthorpe, Dudley North, Wakefield and two seats in Stoke on Trent and would be close to taking Tony Blair's old seat in Sedgefield.

Separately, a Savanta ComRes poll for The Daily Telegraph puts the Conservatives on 41 per cent, down one percentage point from last week, Labour up two on 34 per cent, the Liberal Democrats down two on 13 per cent and the Brexit Party on five per cent.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 28, 2019, 09:08:41 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 27, 2019, 07:17:12 PM
Johnson is a poor leader and this confirms it. The Tories must be worried with 2 weeks left. They are playing a very safety first campaign and did the bare minimum with the manifesto. Johnson could still f**k everything up.

The Tories are worried but the extent of their worries is whether they will get a majority or not. They will be the largest party but then they already were. The whole point of the election was to get them over the line in a majority position with 100% of their successful candidates confirming in advance full discipline on the Brexit issue.

The only campaign agenda is to identify themselves as the natural hone for those who want to leave the EU (c50% of the electorate) and Scots who want to stay in UK (c50% of the Scottish electorate). Policy light. Detail light. Scrutiny light. Stay out of trouble.

Leave voters are going to decide this election.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 28, 2019, 09:12:16 AM
Quote from: trailer on November 27, 2019, 10:08:42 PM
Labour looked fucked according to latest yougov poll.
YouGov / Times MRP

Con 359 (+42)
Lab 211 (-51)
Lib Dem 13 (+1)
SNP 43 (+8)
Plaid 4 (-)
Green 1 (-)
Speaker 1 (-)

Some polls showing Labour closing the gap in terms of percentage share. However any of the predictions of seat numbers are worrying. Labour are going to lose seats to SNP and they have effectively written those seats off as SNP have positioned themselves on Labour turf and overlaid it with the nationalist issue.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 28, 2019, 09:14:39 AM
Quote from: under the bar on November 27, 2019, 11:31:50 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 27, 2019, 10:34:54 PM
Betting odds:

Tory overall majority: 4/9
No overall majority: 5/2
Labour majority: 25/1

Damned if I know how Johnson's doing it, but he seems to be winning. I'm getting the same sinking feeling I got in 2016 when it started to look like Trump had a chance.

Maybe the "antisemitism" muck is sticking.

You can rule Labour out as irrelevant. Any opposition that couldn't win an election through all the years of austerity and Brexit fuckwittery clearly don't deserve to lead.

At this stage I'd much prefer a clear Johnston majority than a hung parliament and DUP with a voting influence.  As much a **** as he is he couldn't give a f**k about Ireland or the Northern Union. If hard Brexit is his aim he's more likely to shaft the latter.

I think you underestimate just how much of a problem Brexit is for Labour.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 28, 2019, 09:16:33 AM
Quote from: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on November 28, 2019, 01:03:49 AM
Dear Seafoid,

I would make an educated guess, you voted against Brexit and lost. You were for Clinton and hated the idea of Trump winning. Now you are going to get the treble up, as you cannot see the Tories are going to swot away Labour, you are grasping at straws thinking a miracle will occur in the next fortnight.
Also Finucane will not beat Dodds, too much riding on it for the latter....can you call one election correctly?.

Brace yourself for Brexit, and as I have written previously on this thread, it accelerates the prospect of a border poll and then the possibility of a United Ireland.


One other item that Left/labour fans fail to answer, if the Labour party were discriminating against its Islamic members in the manner in which it is systematically doing so against the Jewish brethren, I am certain all the leftist/socialist/Marxists would be up in arms.....why all the denial, ignore the elephant in the room stuff?. the policy is an underhand one of banish the jews, welcome with open arms the Muslims, now seen as the safest voting block for the Labour.   
What is puzzling is that Labour advocates all this snowflake social policy of pro choice abortion, same sex marriage, whatever you want gender wise and liberal education.....yet their Islamic friends are totally against these policies, look at what is happening in education in Birmingham for example, when the policy/religion clash occurs.

when they build up sufficient numbers, the muslims will abandon Labour and set up their own fundamentalist party in Britain and then Labour will be as relevant as the Labour party in the south of Ireland.

Feel free to wind up Seafoid but tone down the Rod Liddle impersonation. Some people have just had their breakfast
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 28, 2019, 09:35:43 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 28, 2019, 09:08:41 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 27, 2019, 07:17:12 PM
Johnson is a poor leader and this confirms it. The Tories must be worried with 2 weeks left. They are playing a very safety first campaign and did the bare minimum with the manifesto. Johnson could still f**k everything up.

The Tories are worried but the extent of their worries is whether they will get a majority or not. They will be the largest party but then they already were. The whole point of the election was to get them over the line in a majority position with 100% of their successful candidates confirming in advance full discipline on the Brexit issue.

The only campaign agenda is to identify themselves as the natural hone for those who want to leave the EU (c50% of the electorate) and Scots who want to stay in UK (c50% of the Scottish electorate). Policy light. Detail light. Scrutiny light. Stay out of trouble.

Leave voters are going to decide this election.
Remain are 53% now
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/brexit/brexit-polls-latest-john-curtice-remain-lead-leave-non-voters-97295

Neither Corbyn nor Johnson are attractive leaders, for various reasons.
It's going to come down to this. I think tactical voting will play a role as well.
If Labour's numbers continue to improve a hung Parliament is likely.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 28, 2019, 09:43:09 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 28, 2019, 09:35:43 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 28, 2019, 09:08:41 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 27, 2019, 07:17:12 PM
Johnson is a poor leader and this confirms it. The Tories must be worried with 2 weeks left. They are playing a very safety first campaign and did the bare minimum with the manifesto. Johnson could still f**k everything up.

The Tories are worried but the extent of their worries is whether they will get a majority or not. They will be the largest party but then they already were. The whole point of the election was to get them over the line in a majority position with 100% of their successful candidates confirming in advance full discipline on the Brexit issue.

The only campaign agenda is to identify themselves as the natural hone for those who want to leave the EU (c50% of the electorate) and Scots who want to stay in UK (c50% of the Scottish electorate). Policy light. Detail light. Scrutiny light. Stay out of trouble.

Leave voters are going to decide this election.
Remain are 53% now
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/brexit/brexit-polls-latest-john-curtice-remain-lead-leave-non-voters-97295

Neither Corbyn nor Johnson are attractive leaders, for various reasons.
It's going to come down to this. I think tactical voting will play a role as well.
If Labour's numbers continue to improve a hung Parliament is likely.

The point is that the Tory/Brexit Raving Looney Party deal presents Leave voters with a really simple voting choice in most constituencies. Labour needs to retain as many Leave voters as possible. Leave voters decide this election. The paradox here is that Remainers like myself need Labour to offer something attractive to Leave voters in order to see of the threat of No Deal Leave and ultimately Leave altogether
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 28, 2019, 09:55:12 AM
Don't worry about these polls. SF say that Westminster doesn't matter even if Conservatives gain a huge majority.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: bennydorano on November 28, 2019, 10:03:49 AM
Tactical voting is being wildly overegged imo, it will be fairly minimal in comparison to regular voting habits, bad weather or seasonal apathy could be much bigger factors in turnouts. The registration of millions of Young voters would appear to be a boon to Labour but who knows, it's unlikely they'll be spread across marginals in a way that will only help Labour. The Labour breakthtough ain't coming.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 28, 2019, 10:17:29 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 28, 2019, 09:43:09 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 28, 2019, 09:35:43 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 28, 2019, 09:08:41 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 27, 2019, 07:17:12 PM
Johnson is a poor leader and this confirms it. The Tories must be worried with 2 weeks left. They are playing a very safety first campaign and did the bare minimum with the manifesto. Johnson could still f**k everything up.

The Tories are worried but the extent of their worries is whether they will get a majority or not. They will be the largest party but then they already were. The whole point of the election was to get them over the line in a majority position with 100% of their successful candidates confirming in advance full discipline on the Brexit issue.

The only campaign agenda is to identify themselves as the natural hone for those who want to leave the EU (c50% of the electorate) and Scots who want to stay in UK (c50% of the Scottish electorate). Policy light. Detail light. Scrutiny light. Stay out of trouble.

Leave voters are going to decide this election.
Remain are 53% now
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/brexit/brexit-polls-latest-john-curtice-remain-lead-leave-non-voters-97295

Neither Corbyn nor Johnson are attractive leaders, for various reasons.
It's going to come down to this. I think tactical voting will play a role as well.
If Labour's numbers continue to improve a hung Parliament is likely.

The point is that the Tory/Brexit Raving Looney Party deal presents Leave voters with a really simple voting choice in most constituencies. Labour needs to retain as many Leave voters as possible. Leave voters decide this election. The paradox here is that Remainers like myself need Labour to offer something attractive to Leave voters in order to see of the threat of No Deal Leave and ultimately Leave altogether


   
   https://www.ft.com/content/bd377369-41ee-30e9-9d36-3f628db09a03

   Labour to shake up strategy after poll foreshadows heavy defeat

FT political editor George Parker reports:

Labour is to change its election strategy to strengthen its appeal to Leave voters, after an in depth opinion poll found the party could be on course to lose dozens of seats to the Conservatives.

Barry Gardiner, shadow trade secretary, did not deny a BBC report that Labour had been shaken by the number of Leave voters willing to switch to the Tories and that the party would change tack to address the problem.

The party is planning to give a higher profile to Leave-inclined Labour MPs, including party chair Ian Lavery, while more activists would be moved to areas that voted heavily for Brexit in 2016.

The party's promise to negotiate a better Brexit deal and then put it to a referendum would also be highlighted to reassure Leave supporters that Labour wanted to make any exit deal more "jobs friendly".

Labour has struggled badly on Brexit in this election: its promise to negotiate a new Brexit deal and then put in to a referendum with Remain on the ballot paper is seen by many voters as fence-sitting.

Jeremy Corbyn's decision to remain neutral in any future referendum has suggested that Labour has no clear policy on Brexit, while Boris Johnson's "Get Brexit Done" has worked well on the doorstep.

Mr Gardiner, speaking on Radio 4's Today programme, said he was unaware of the change of strategy but Labour officials would only say that not all aspects of the BBC report were correct.

"We want to keep on - as we have been doing - narrowing the margin in the polls," Mr Gardiner said. "I obviously want to make sure we appeal to all sections of the population on Brexit. We are the only party trying to unite the party, not go off to one extreme or the other."

But the YouGov poll in the Times suggested that Labour would lose 51 seats at the election and return only 211 MPs, its second worst defeat since the Second World War.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 28, 2019, 11:39:57 AM
When the election was called a hung Parliament was deemed most likely. The UK is polarised and a mess.
What would justify a Tory win by 40 seats ? I can't see anything that would.

In other news, what are the odds of the DUP losing all their seats in Belfast ?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on November 28, 2019, 11:49:19 AM
Best "we" can hope for is they'll lose 2.
I see talks on restoring Stormont to start on 16th Dec. Any substance in them or just window dressing?

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 28, 2019, 11:52:43 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 28, 2019, 11:39:57 AM
When the election was called a hung Parliament was deemed most likely. The UK is polarised and a mess.
What would justify a Tory win by 40 seats ? I can't see anything that would.

In other news, what are the odds of the DUP losing all their seats in Belfast ?

There is a *slim* chance.

North Belfast will be reasonably close but I would still expect Dodds to get it and likewise with the East and Gavin Robinson. Pengelly you would hope is gone but I wouldn't be too sure until it actually happens.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 28, 2019, 12:09:29 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on November 28, 2019, 11:52:43 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 28, 2019, 11:39:57 AM
When the election was called a hung Parliament was deemed most likely. The UK is polarised and a mess.
What would justify a Tory win by 40 seats ? I can't see anything that would.

In other news, what are the odds of the DUP losing all their seats in Belfast ?

There is a *slim* chance.

North Belfast will be reasonably close but I would still expect Dodds to get it and likewise with the East and Gavin Robinson. Pengelly you would hope is gone but I wouldn't be too sure until it actually happens.

Unless something seismic happens they'll keep everything except South Belfast then pick up North Down and still have 10.

Good chance Sinn Fein will lose Foyle and will be one seat down. . . not that it particularly matters!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Franko on November 28, 2019, 01:49:45 PM
Quote from: gallsman on November 28, 2019, 07:17:01 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 27, 2019, 09:41:39 AM
Quote from: gallsman on November 27, 2019, 08:48:22 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 27, 2019, 07:11:25 AM
The next 2 weeks will probably be vicious. The assaults on Labour will intensify especially if the gap in the polls continues to narrow. There is a huge amount at stake in this election.

Grow up and get a bit of thicker skin. "Assaults" ffs.

The moaning and whining and bitching from all sides is flat out embarrassing.

Labour and Corbyn in particular are the subject of a systematic, baseless smear campaign from the rich and powerful. They're scared of having to pay a fair share of tax. They're scared of the underclasses getting access to affordable education which might give them a leg up in society. They want to maintain the status quo.


This is, frankly, complete and utter bollox. Baseless? Pull the other one.

It's frankly not.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: sid waddell on November 28, 2019, 02:17:08 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 28, 2019, 01:49:45 PM
Quote from: gallsman on November 28, 2019, 07:17:01 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 27, 2019, 09:41:39 AM
Quote from: gallsman on November 27, 2019, 08:48:22 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 27, 2019, 07:11:25 AM
The next 2 weeks will probably be vicious. The assaults on Labour will intensify especially if the gap in the polls continues to narrow. There is a huge amount at stake in this election.

Grow up and get a bit of thicker skin. "Assaults" ffs.

The moaning and whining and bitching from all sides is flat out embarrassing.

Labour and Corbyn in particular are the subject of a systematic, baseless smear campaign from the rich and powerful. They're scared of having to pay a fair share of tax. They're scared of the underclasses getting access to affordable education which might give them a leg up in society. They want to maintain the status quo.


This is, frankly, complete and utter bollox. Baseless? Pull the other one.

It's frankly not.
The anti-Semitism thing is bollocks, it's a shameless and deliberate smear campaign which isn't about anti-Semitism at all but about Israel.

There is anti-Semitism in the Labour party, and any anti-Semtism is too much, but there is certainly no more than in any other political party and no more than in any other walk of life.

If any of this was about anti-Semitism, it would not be targetting a particular political party because it cuts across politics and indeed comes in much greater numbers from the right, as does Islamophobia.

The narrative that has been spun by the media about Labour being a uniquely anti-Semitic party is pure bullshit.

It's textbook political smearing of the Karl Rove Swift Boat type times 50.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: magpie seanie on November 28, 2019, 02:33:15 PM
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/writingfromtheedge/2019/11/as-a-british-jew-im-not-fearful-of-a-corbyn-government-but-im-horrified-at-how-antisemitism-is-being-used-against-him/ (https://www.patheos.com/blogs/writingfromtheedge/2019/11/as-a-british-jew-im-not-fearful-of-a-corbyn-government-but-im-horrified-at-how-antisemitism-is-being-used-against-him/)

Gallsman and others who buy into this rubbish - have a read of this. It explains in great detail what the factual position is - very hard to contest any of it. The anti-semitism reported (and dealt with might I add) in the Labour party is below that of regular society. It's all a political strategy and it's quite vile and disgusting and undermines combating real anti-semitism.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on November 28, 2019, 03:04:30 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 28, 2019, 02:33:15 PM
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/writingfromtheedge/2019/11/as-a-british-jew-im-not-fearful-of-a-corbyn-government-but-im-horrified-at-how-antisemitism-is-being-used-against-him/ (https://www.patheos.com/blogs/writingfromtheedge/2019/11/as-a-british-jew-im-not-fearful-of-a-corbyn-government-but-im-horrified-at-how-antisemitism-is-being-used-against-him/)

Gallsman and others who buy into this rubbish - have a read of this. It explains in great detail what the factual position is - very hard to contest any of it. The anti-semitism reported (and dealt with might I add) in the Labour party is below that of regular society. It's all a political strategy and it's quite vile and disgusting and undermines combating real anti-semitism.

Trawling the internet to clutch a straw to back up your position  8)

You would be here all day posting links with the opposite viewpoint from Jews

And you are holding someone that wants to be PM to the same standard as "regular society", have heard it all.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 28, 2019, 03:53:50 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on November 28, 2019, 11:52:43 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 28, 2019, 11:39:57 AM
When the election was called a hung Parliament was deemed most likely. The UK is polarised and a mess.
What would justify a Tory win by 40 seats ? I can't see anything that would.

In other news, what are the odds of the DUP losing all their seats in Belfast ?

There is a *slim* chance.

North Belfast will be reasonably close but I would still expect Dodds to get it and likewise with the East and Gavin Robinson. Pengelly you would hope is gone but I wouldn't be too sure until it actually happens.

Pengelly is a goner. Eastwood will replace McCallion and DUP will pick up North Down. SF should retain Fermanagh/ST. Which leaves North Down between Dodds and Finucane as the closest to call. The relentless attacks on Finucane have probably damaged him and may help Dodds over the line or who knows maybe the public will see them for what they are, smear tactics. I still think that this seat could go either way. So all things being equal it will be DUP or SF down 1 seat and with Sylvia Hermon stepping down that should leave the SDLP gaining 2 seats. 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 28, 2019, 03:55:06 PM
Martin wolf of the FT on the Tories

"The Tories have provided dreadful government, from post-crisis fiscal austerity at the expense of the vulnerable, to the idiocy of Brexit. The economy's performance has been dire, above all, on productivity."

Israel started losing on social media around 2014. There aren't enough Zionists to win global arguments. Previously media was kept manageable  by media gatekeepers like Wolf Blitzer. Social media broke that model.
In 2015 or so the IHRA definition of antisemitism was broadened to include anti Zionism. Anyone who supports Palestinian rights is an anti Semite by the IHRA definition.
Corbyn supports Palestinian rights. So do a lot of Brits. They are all anti Semites under the IHRA definition.

The whole thing is a joke.   
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on November 28, 2019, 04:05:31 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 28, 2019, 01:49:45 PM
Quote from: gallsman on November 28, 2019, 07:17:01 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 27, 2019, 09:41:39 AM
Quote from: gallsman on November 27, 2019, 08:48:22 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 27, 2019, 07:11:25 AM
The next 2 weeks will probably be vicious. The assaults on Labour will intensify especially if the gap in the polls continues to narrow. There is a huge amount at stake in this election.

Grow up and get a bit of thicker skin. "Assaults" ffs.

The moaning and whining and bitching from all sides is flat out embarrassing.

Labour and Corbyn in particular are the subject of a systematic, baseless smear campaign from the rich and powerful. They're scared of having to pay a fair share of tax. They're scared of the underclasses getting access to affordable education which might give them a leg up in society. They want to maintain the status quo.


This is, frankly, complete and utter bollox. Baseless? Pull the other one.

It's frankly not.

Go on then, tell me who's orchestrating this systematic smear campaign. I know Seafoid thinks its all the fault of the Jews (when he's not talking about Scarlett Johansson purifying herself of her menstrual impurities in her personal mikvah) but if you're going to claim that there's a systematic smear campaign, you'd better be able to provide evidence of who's behind it. The Tories? The BBC? The Guardian?

The shrieking on all sides about bias and impartiality in the media is rendering political debate all but irrelevant in this day and age. On the one side you have the likes of that pillock Bastani bleating on about Corbyn hitting Andrew Neil for six when the country was laughing at him or demand that the BBC explain themselves for how they edited a clip from newsnight to share on Twitter. Then you have the other side trying to claim that posing as a fact checking organisation wasn't confusing or nefarious or that 6 actually equals 40.

If everyone could take a step back and stop howling at the top of their voices, maybe we could actually talk about the issues at hand.

On the Corbyn front, what a lot of people can't see or refuse to see is that people have a right to be uneasy about his approach to antisemitism. You don't get to tell one Jew who is very worried about his prospects under Corbyn's Britain "What's your problem, here's another Jew who is ok with it. This Jew says there's no problem with anti-Semitism, so there you go"

Corbyn is the leader of a party that has been the political home of the majority of Britain's Jews for generations. The fact that he has failed to sort the issue, whether or not he is personally an anti-Semite (I don't for a second believe he is, although he has shown himself to be ignorant or, at best, blissfully unaware of what can constitute antisemitism) is damning enough in its own right for many of them.

Given ten years of Tory government and the complete shambles that is Brexit, a Labour victory should have been a cakewalk in such an election. The reason it isn't is that Corbyn and his cadre are either incompetent, or are perceived to be. Not because the Jewish-run BBC guardian reading daily telegraph buying rich not enemies of the people have conducted a smear campaign against him.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 28, 2019, 04:17:27 PM
Quote from: gallsman on November 28, 2019, 04:05:31 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 28, 2019, 01:49:45 PM
Quote from: gallsman on November 28, 2019, 07:17:01 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 27, 2019, 09:41:39 AM
Quote from: gallsman on November 27, 2019, 08:48:22 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 27, 2019, 07:11:25 AM
The next 2 weeks will probably be vicious. The assaults on Labour will intensify especially if the gap in the polls continues to narrow. There is a huge amount at stake in this election.

Grow up and get a bit of thicker skin. "Assaults" ffs.

The moaning and whining and bitching from all sides is flat out embarrassing.

Labour and Corbyn in particular are the subject of a systematic, baseless smear campaign from the rich and powerful. They're scared of having to pay a fair share of tax. They're scared of the underclasses getting access to affordable education which might give them a leg up in society. They want to maintain the status quo.


This is, frankly, complete and utter bollox. Baseless? Pull the other one.

It's frankly not.

Go on then, tell me who's orchestrating this systematic smear campaign. I know Seafoid thinks its all the fault of the Jews (when he's not talking about Scarlett Johansson purifying herself of her menstrual impurities in her personal mikvah) but if you're going to claim that there's a systematic smear campaign, you'd better be able to provide evidence of who's behind it. The Tories? The BBC? The Guardian?

The shrieking on all sides about bias and impartiality in the media is rendering political debate all but irrelevant in this day and age. On the one side you have the likes of that pillock Bastani bleating on about Corbyn hitting Andrew Neil for six when the country was laughing at him or demand that the BBC explain themselves for how they edited a clip from newsnight to share on Twitter. Then you have the other side trying to claim that posing as a fact checking organisation wasn't confusing or nefarious or that 6 actually equals 40.

If everyone could take a step back and stop howling at the top of their voices, maybe we could actually talk about the issues at hand.

On the Corbyn front, what a lot of people can't see or refuse to see is that people have a right to be uneasy about his approach to antisemitism. You don't get to tell one Jew who is very worried about his prospects under Corbyn's Britain "What's your problem, here's another Jew who is ok with it. This Jew says there's no problem with anti-Semitism, so there you go"

Corbyn is the leader of a party that has been the political home of the majority of Britain's Jews for generations. The fact that he has failed to sort the issue, whether or not he is personally an anti-Semite (I don't for a second believe he is, although he has shown himself to be ignorant or, at best, blissfully unaware of what can constitute antisemitism) is damning enough in its own right for many of them.
I think it's driven by the Israeli embassy and the Board of Deputies on one hand. It's a Zionist project and that will tend to involve some Jews.
Why are they involved?  Because they are afraid of regime change. The Tories have always supported Israel politically. Labour probably wouldn't. Israel is afraid of changes that would impact the Occupation.

Corbyn has other enemies such as the neoliberals who benefit from business as usual, on the other hand.  The owners of the right wing newspapers would be an example. Why are they involved? Because they don't want things to change. Media gatekeepers like Peston have their own reasons.

It's much bigger than a Jewish thing.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on November 28, 2019, 04:22:27 PM
What's Peston's own reason? What's Laura K's?

And are you really, honestly trying to suggest that the media in the UK is being directed by the Israeli embassy? Surely now, this isn't a windup?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on November 28, 2019, 04:27:07 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 28, 2019, 03:55:06 PMAnyone who supports Palestinian rights is an anti Semite by the IHRA definition.
Corbyn supports Palestinian rights. So do a lot of Brits. They are all anti Semites under the IHRA definition.

This is a lie. A scandalous, boldfaced lie.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 28, 2019, 04:43:56 PM
Quote from: gallsman on November 28, 2019, 04:27:07 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 28, 2019, 03:55:06 PMAnyone who supports Palestinian rights is an anti Semite by the IHRA definition.
Corbyn supports Palestinian rights. So do a lot of Brits. They are all anti Semites under the IHRA definition.

This is a lie. A scandalous, boldfaced lie.

I agree with Seafoid - anybody who speaks up in support of the people of Palestine is automatically branded as anti-semitic.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on November 28, 2019, 04:45:42 PM
Quote from: marty34 on November 28, 2019, 04:43:56 PM
Quote from: gallsman on November 28, 2019, 04:27:07 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 28, 2019, 03:55:06 PMAnyone who supports Palestinian rights is an anti Semite by the IHRA definition.
Corbyn supports Palestinian rights. So do a lot of Brits. They are all anti Semites under the IHRA definition.

This is a lie. A scandalous, boldfaced lie.

I agree with Seafoid - anybody who speaks up in support of the people of Palestine is automatically branded as anti-semitic.

According to the IHRA Working Definition?

I assume that as you're commenting on statements related to it, you have read it and are familiar with it?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 28, 2019, 04:46:54 PM
Quote from: gallsman on November 28, 2019, 04:22:27 PM
What's Peston's own reason? What's Laura K's?

And are you really, honestly trying to suggest that the media in the UK is being directed by the Israeli embassy? Surely now, this isn't a windup?
I'm not. I said it had different drivers.
Peston and Kuenssberg are careerists. Johnson or whoever else gives them stories.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 28, 2019, 04:54:49 PM
Quote from: gallsman on November 28, 2019, 04:27:07 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 28, 2019, 03:55:06 PMAnyone who supports Palestinian rights is an anti Semite by the IHRA definition.
Corbyn supports Palestinian rights. So do a lot of Brits. They are all anti Semites under the IHRA definition.

This is a lie. A scandalous, boldfaced lie.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.globalresearch.ca/as-battle-rages-in-uk-labour-party-moshe-machover-expelled-after-asserting-anti-zionism-does-not-equal-anti-semitism/5613171/amp

"As Machover observed, pro-Israel groups are in trouble in Labour and elsewhere.

"They are losing credibility on the arena of what could be called international opinion, but – more importantly – they are losing the Jewish public outside Israel, especially those under 30. There is a clear generational shift in opinion. These people are becoming very critical of Israel and its colonisation project."

Zionism is in trouble, Gallsman. This is where the IHRA definition began.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on November 28, 2019, 04:59:11 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 28, 2019, 04:54:49 PM
Quote from: gallsman on November 28, 2019, 04:27:07 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 28, 2019, 03:55:06 PMAnyone who supports Palestinian rights is an anti Semite by the IHRA definition.
Corbyn supports Palestinian rights. So do a lot of Brits. They are all anti Semites under the IHRA definition.

This is a lie. A scandalous, boldfaced lie.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.globalresearch.ca/as-battle-rages-in-uk-labour-party-moshe-machover-expelled-after-asserting-anti-zionism-does-not-equal-anti-semitism/5613171/amp

Your statement was not about whether some people equate anti-Zionism with anti-semitism. Once again, you said:

Quote from: seafoid on November 28, 2019, 03:55:06 PMAnyone who supports Palestinian rights is an anti Semite by the IHRA definition.
Corbyn supports Palestinian rights. So do a lot of Brits. They are all anti Semites under the IHRA definition.

I repeat this is a lie. The IHRA Working Definition does not reference Palestinian rights, nor make any assertions about anyone who supports them, either implicitly or explicitly. Not once.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: maddog on November 28, 2019, 05:01:45 PM
That you gov poll is making some serious leaps. The Birmingham mail today is reporting 7 labour held seats will be lost in the area to the Tories. Some of these seats have decent Labour majorities but were leave voting seats. They are making the assumption that leave voters will jump Labour to Tory. I can't see it when it comes to putting the X down and if you believe as i do that a good number of leavers will have changed their minds then i don't see the massive swing to the tories the yougov poll is predicting. We will see. However if you google democratic dashboard and a constinuency name it will give you the run down in each area. Make up your own mind. I could be way out but i think the Tory lead narrative is being pushed by them primarily.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 28, 2019, 05:03:01 PM
Quote from: gallsman on November 28, 2019, 04:59:11 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 28, 2019, 04:54:49 PM
Quote from: gallsman on November 28, 2019, 04:27:07 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 28, 2019, 03:55:06 PMAnyone who supports Palestinian rights is an anti Semite by the IHRA definition.
Corbyn supports Palestinian rights. So do a lot of Brits. They are all anti Semites under the IHRA definition.

This is a lie. A scandalous, boldfaced lie.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.globalresearch.ca/as-battle-rages-in-uk-labour-party-moshe-machover-expelled-after-asserting-anti-zionism-does-not-equal-anti-semitism/5613171/amp

Your statement was not about whether some people equate anti-Zionism with anti-semitism. Once again, you said:

Quote from: seafoid on November 28, 2019, 03:55:06 PMAnyone who supports Palestinian rights is an anti Semite by the IHRA definition.
Corbyn supports Palestinian rights. So do a lot of Brits. They are all anti Semites under the IHRA definition.

I repeat this is a lie. The IHRA Working Definition does not reference Palestinian rights, nor make any assertions about anyone who supports them, either implicitly or explicitly. Not once.

https://www.globalresearch.ca/as-battle-rages-in-uk-labour-party-moshe-machover-expelled-after-asserting-anti-zionism-does-not-equal-anti-semitism/5613171

"In fact, the examples of anti-semitism provided by the IHRA include several that are clearly designed to include criticism of Israel:

* Manifestations might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. However, criticism of Israel similar to that levelled against any other country cannot be regarded as anti-Semitic.

* Applying double standards by requiring of [the state of Israel] a behaviour not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.

* Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g. by claiming that the existence of a state of Israel is a racist endeavour."

There you go.
Accusing Israel of running Jim Crow is "antisemitic."

Pick another hobby horse because Israel is really struggling. 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on November 28, 2019, 05:11:04 PM
There I go absolutely f**king nothing Absolutely zero of what you've postedhas anything to do with labelling anyone who supports Palestinian rights as anti-Semitic. I don't know if you're deliberately obtuse or just so filled with bigotry that you actually can't see the difference

The examples you've pulled from it are fascinating though, particularly the one about not applying standards to Israel that would not be expected or demanded of any other nation. You have some sort of problem with this, or deem it in some way unreasonable?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 28, 2019, 05:13:36 PM
Quote from: gallsman on November 28, 2019, 04:27:07 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 28, 2019, 03:55:06 PMAnyone who supports Palestinian rights is an anti Semite by the IHRA definition.
Corbyn supports Palestinian rights. So do a lot of Brits. They are all anti Semites under the IHRA definition.

This is a lie. A scandalous, boldfaced lie.

https://www.globalresearch.ca/as-battle-rages-in-uk-labour-party-moshe-machover-expelled-after-asserting-anti-zionism-does-not-equal-anti-semitism/5613171

"any discourse that takes as its premise that Israel is not a liberal democracy, but rather a Jewish state, as it declares itself to be, or that it practises apartheid, or that it should be subject to a boycott, appears to fall foul of this definition"

The IHRA definition is a joke
It essentially involves Israel hiding behind the concept of antisemitism. 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on November 28, 2019, 05:19:17 PM
Rather than frantically googling global research.ca articles, why don't you just refer to the IHRA definition and its accompanying examples directly? They're all very easily accessed and, as you've obviously studied them closely, would understand that they take about 30 seconds to read.

All you are able to do is, continuously, repost (incorrect) opinion pieces. You are a liar.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on November 28, 2019, 05:20:36 PM
Quote from: gallsman on November 28, 2019, 05:19:17 PM
Rather than frantically googling global research.ca articles, why don't you just refer to the IHRA definition and its accompanying examples directly? They're all very easily accessed and, as you've obviously studied them closely, would understand that they take about 30 seconds to read.

All you are able to do is, continuously, repost (incorrect) opinion pieces. You are a liar.

And seems to have Magpie Seanie as a willing apprentice
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on November 28, 2019, 05:24:15 PM
I wonder after the IFS branding BOTH Labour and Tory manifesto spending plans as "not credible" does Seafoid still see the IFS part of the neo liberal conspiracy ?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 28, 2019, 05:46:08 PM
Quote from: gallsman on November 28, 2019, 05:19:17 PM
Rather than frantically googling global research.ca articles, why don't you just refer to the IHRA definition and its accompanying examples directly? They're all very easily accessed and, as you've obviously studied them closely, would understand that they take about 30 seconds to read.

All you are able to do is, continuously, repost (incorrect) opinion pieces. You are a liar.

You are a drama queen.

https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/sites/default/files/press_release_document_antisemitism.pdf
Adopt the following non-legally binding working definition of antisemitism:

"Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities."

That definition wouldn't stand up in court. The vagueness is the point.


Accusing Israel of apartheid could qualify as "hatred towards Jews" or towards "Jewish community institutions"
Calling for a Palestinian State and the removal of settlers could be classed as " a certain perception of Jews".

Not forgetting :

"Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.  Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation"

This is the basis upon which they declare Corbyn anti-Semitic.

For f**k's sake.
Israel always has to suppress international law. Always.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 28, 2019, 05:49:12 PM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 28, 2019, 05:24:15 PM
I wonder after the IFS branding BOTH Labour and Tory manifesto spending plans as "not credible" does Seafoid still see the IFS part of the neo liberal conspiracy ?
Show me where the IFS supports demand.

The IMF is neoliberal. The ECB is neoliberal. The Fed is neoliberal. The Bank of England is neoliberal. KPMG is neoliberal. EY is neoliberal.  Of course the IFS is neoliberal. It's 2019. 
Neoliberalism isn't a conspiracy. It's the economic system. Big difference.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on November 28, 2019, 05:56:11 PM
Of course, even if you were in any way close to being correct about any of this, your history of antisemitism on the board would (or should) disqualify any reasonable person from even considering being aligned with your views.

(See reference to your previous interest in ScarJo's menstrual rituals)
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Franko on November 28, 2019, 06:18:30 PM
I wouldn't be as quick as seafoid to suggest that it's the Israeli lobby behind it all but there certainly are wealthy individuals, corporations, media groups and nation states who would stand to lose a lot if Corbyn got into power.

These groups wield influence over a Tory government by throwing money at the right people and that's why they are so terrified of Corbyn getting into power... because despite all his faults (there are many IMO) I don't think he can be bought.

As for providing evidence.  Come off it.  What do you want me to do, post you a link to an email from the Barclay twins to BoJo?  Catch a grip.  The evidence is in front of your eyes but you either don't want to, or are too naive to see it.

A couple of other things;
1.
You need to take yourself a little less seriously - "if you're going to claim that there's a systematic smear campaign, you'd better be able to provide evidence of who's behind it.".  Had I better?  To whom?  You?  ;D

2.
The only shrieking I can see is being done by you.  The rest of us can generally present some sort of opinion here without getting worked up into a swearing frenzy and throwing out insults.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on November 28, 2019, 06:20:02 PM
Quote from: gallsman on November 28, 2019, 05:56:11 PM
Of course, even if you were in any way close to being correct about any of this, your history of antisemitism on the board would (or should) disqualify any reasonable person from even considering being aligned with your views.

Sorry... what?

So 'cos Seafoid says that the Palestinians are getting an unfair time of it, no one else is allowed to say the same without branding themselves unreasonable?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Franko on November 28, 2019, 06:26:12 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 28, 2019, 05:46:08 PM
Quote from: gallsman on November 28, 2019, 05:19:17 PM
Rather than frantically googling global research.ca articles, why don't you just refer to the IHRA definition and its accompanying examples directly? They're all very easily accessed and, as you've obviously studied them closely, would understand that they take about 30 seconds to read.

All you are able to do is, continuously, repost (incorrect) opinion pieces. You are a liar.

You are a drama queen.

https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/sites/default/files/press_release_document_antisemitism.pdf
Adopt the following non-legally binding working definition of antisemitism:

"Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities."

That definition wouldn't stand up in court. The vagueness is the point.


Accusing Israel of apartheid could qualify as "hatred towards Jews" or towards "Jewish community institutions"
Calling for a Palestinian State and the removal of settlers could be classed as " a certain perception of Jews".

Not forgetting :

"Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.  Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation"

This is the basis upon which they declare Corbyn anti-Semitic.

For f**k's sake.
Israel always has to suppress international law. Always.

Been over this before (on here I think).

The bit in bold is the killer.  The state of Israel is the largest Jewish community institution in the world.

And that definition basically says you can't criticise it without being racist.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on November 28, 2019, 06:52:19 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 28, 2019, 06:26:12 PM
And that definition basically says you can't criticise it without being racist.

Jesus Christ, no it doesn't. It states that Jewish community institutions (Israel in your example) can be victims/targets of antisemitism.

It says nothing about criticising Israel being anti-Semitic.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 28, 2019, 06:55:56 PM
Quote from: maddog on November 28, 2019, 05:01:45 PM
That you gov poll is making some serious leaps. The Birmingham mail today is reporting 7 labour held seats will be lost in the area to the Tories. Some of these seats have decent Labour majorities but were leave voting seats. They are making the assumption that leave voters will jump Labour to Tory. I can't see it when it comes to putting the X down and if you believe as i do that a good number of leavers will have changed their minds then i don't see the massive swing to the tories the yougov poll is predicting. We will see. However if you google democratic dashboard and a constinuency name it will give you the run down in each area. Make up your own mind. I could be way out but i think the Tory lead narrative is being pushed by them primarily.
The FT had a chart of the 42 seats that YouGov implies the Tories will win. Wrexham, Bolsover, Hyndburn...
The point of such polling is to encourage other people to concede.
The chart will be worth comparing with the election results.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 28, 2019, 07:01:37 PM
Quote from: gallsman on November 28, 2019, 05:11:04 PM
There I go absolutely f**king nothing Absolutely zero of what you've postedhas anything to do with labelling anyone who supports Palestinian rights as anti-Semitic. I don't know if you're deliberately obtuse or just so filled with bigotry that you actually can't see the difference

The examples you've pulled from it are fascinating though, particularly the one about not applying standards to Israel that would not be expected or demanded of any other nation. You have some sort of problem with this, or deem it in some way unreasonable?

Calling what Israel does apartheid/demanding the removal of Jewish settlers/Calling for sanctions against Israel- all of these would be classed as "anti Semitic" by Zionists under the IHRA definition.
The definition is too ludicrous to be sustainable.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 28, 2019, 07:03:15 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on November 28, 2019, 06:20:02 PM
Quote from: gallsman on November 28, 2019, 05:56:11 PM
Of course, even if you were in any way close to being correct about any of this, your history of antisemitism on the board would (or should) disqualify any reasonable person from even considering being aligned with your views.

Sorry... what?

So 'cos Seafoid says that the Palestinians are getting an unfair time of it, no one else is allowed to say the same without branding themselves unreasonable?
No. Those are the rules.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 28, 2019, 07:12:56 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 28, 2019, 06:18:30 PM
I wouldn't be as quick as seafoid to suggest that it's the Israeli lobby behind it all but there certainly are wealthy individuals, corporations, media groups and nation states who would stand to lose a lot if Corbyn got into power.

These groups wield influence over a Tory government by throwing money at the right people and that's why they are so terrified of Corbyn getting into power... because despite all his faults (there are many IMO) I don't think he can be bought.

As for providing evidence.  Come off it.  What do you want me to do, post you a link to an email from the Barclay twins to BoJo?  Catch a grip.  The evidence is in front of your eyes but you either don't want to, or are too naive to see it.

A couple of other things;
1.
You need to take yourself a little less seriously - "if you're going to claim that there's a systematic smear campaign, you'd better be able to provide evidence of who's behind it.".  Had I better?  To whom?  You?  ;D

2.
The only shrieking I can see is being done by you.  The rest of us can generally present some sort of opinion here without getting worked up into a swearing frenzy and throwing out insults.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/fr/news/israeli-diplomat-sought-set-labour-group-undermine-crazy-corbyn-1016879568
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 28, 2019, 07:42:45 PM
Time for Johnson to expose himself to proper scrutiny.

He runs from scrutiny and his manifesto certainly was environmentally friendly in terms of how little paper it used.

I would like to see him pressed on these issues.

When will we not have a requirement for food banks?
When will the housing crisis be resolved (the number of houses available for rental, the condition of the properties inside and out and the affordability of the property in rental/purchase terms for ordinary workers?)
When will universal credit be operation to a level that there will be no sudden drop income that necessitates recourse to food banks or missed rent/mortgage payments?
When will wage levels hit living wage levels in each regional economy in UK?
When will NHS get the funding required to meet each of the respective waiting time targets?
When will the social care funding model be resolved?
What steps will be take to address failing public transport providers?
Will the state subsidise state infrastructure providers (water, power, postal, broadband) and allow investor dividends at the same time?
Will NHS bargaining power be reduced when negotiating with US pharma?
Will animal welfare standards be reduced?
Will food quality standards be reduced?
Will there be any change to corporation tax or the top rate of income tax prior to the above issues being resolved?
When will the report on Russian influence on UK elections be published in an unredacted form?

It seems incredible that he has been able to run from these issues for so long and to run a government, manifesto and campaign that don't even pretend to address the real problems
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 28, 2019, 08:44:11 PM
I think that he is a poor leader and that he is having a bad campaign.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Owenmoresider on November 28, 2019, 08:58:03 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 28, 2019, 08:44:11 PM
I think that he is a poor leader and that he is having a bad campaign.
Yes you have mentioned that once or twice alright.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: sid waddell on November 28, 2019, 09:12:41 PM
Of course Israel and pro-Israel interests are behind the smears on Corbyn and his supporters.

It's the oldest trick in the book. Look at what they've done to Ilhan Omar in the US while ignoring the litany of virulent anti-Semitism from Trump and the Republicans.

Funny how the media doesn't mention actual instances of anti-Semitism from opponents of Corbyn within Labour.

Like, the guy who's the actual spokesman for an organisation called Labour Against Anti-Semitism, Euan Philipps, who isn't Jewish, called Corbyn supporting journalist Eleanor Penny, who is Jewish, "a blackshirt".

Labour MP Siobhan McDonagh said that "to be anti-capitalist automatically makes you anti-Semitic". That's a classic anti-Semitic trope.

Neither of these two instances of actual anti-Semtism are ever cited by the media. Why? Because Philipps and McDonagh both hate Corbyn.

It would disturb the narrative.

Have a look at the Tories even. There's a litany of anti-Semitism there. Boris Johnson continually commissioned a virulent anti-Semite, Taki Theodoracopulos, to write anti-Semitic propaganda for The Spectator when he was editor - Theodoracopoulos still writes for The Spectator!

Jacob Rees-Mogg, Michael Gove, Andrew Bridgen, James Cleverley, all use or have used anti-Semitic tropes. A Tory candidate in this election had to stand down for being caught out as a Holocaust denier!

Yet none of this is cited by the press as evidence of the Tories having an anti-Semtism problem, which they actually have.

The only prominent Tory to be accused of being an anti-Semite in my memory is Alan Duncan, who categorically is not an anti-Semite. Why was he accused? Because, rarely for a Tory, he knows what he's talking about when it comes to the Israel/Palestine situation and spoke out forcefully against Israel's disgraceful bombing of Gaza in 2014 which killed thousands, and over 500 children.

An Israeli diplomat was literally caught on hidden camera by Al Jazeera saying that he had to be "taken down".

If you're in any sort of prominent position in politics or the media and publicly oppose Israeli policy, it is very likely you will be smeared as an anti-Semite.





Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: under the bar on November 28, 2019, 09:29:44 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on November 28, 2019, 09:12:41 PM
Of course Israel and pro-Israel interests are behind the smears on Corbyn and his supporters.

It's the oldest trick in the book. Look at what they've done to Ilhan Omar in the US while ignoring the litany of virulent anti-Semitism from Trump and the Republicans.

Funny how the media doesn't mention actual instances of anti-Semitism from opponents of Corbyn within Labour.

Like, the guy who's the actual spokesman for an organisation called Labour Against Anti-Semitism, Euan Philipps, who isn't Jewish, called Corbyn supporting journalist Eleanor Penny, who is Jewish, "a blackshirt".

Labour MP Siobhan McDonagh said that "to be anti-capitalist automatically makes you anti-Semitic". That's a classic anti-Semitic trope.

Neither of these two instances of actual anti-Semtism are ever cited by the media. Why? Because Philipps and McDonagh both hate Corbyn.

It would disturb the narrative.

Have a look at the Tories even. There's a litany of anti-Semitism there. Boris Johnson continually commissioned a virulent anti-Semite, Taki Theodoracopulos, to write anti-Semitic propaganda for The Spectator when he was editor - Theodoracopoulos still writes for The Spectator!

Jacob Rees-Mogg, Michael Gove, Andrew Bridgen, James Cleverley, all use or have used anti-Semitic tropes. A Tory candidate in this election had to stand down for being caught out as a Holocaust denier!

Yet none of this is cited by the press as evidence of the Tories having an anti-Semtism problem, which they actually have.

The only prominent Tory to be accused of being an anti-Semite in my memory is Alan Duncan, who categorically is not an anti-Semite. Why was he accused? Because, rarely for a Tory, he knows what he's talking about when it comes to the Israel/Palestine situation and spoke out forcefully against Israel's disgraceful bombing of Gaza in 2014 which killed thousands, and over 500 children.

An Israeli diplomat was literally caught on hidden camera by Al Jazeera saying that he had to be "taken down".

If you're in any sort of prominent position in politics or the media and publicly oppose Israeli policy, it is very likely you will be smeared as an anti-Semite.
+1
Didn't the Israeli government attempt to get the UN definition of anti-semitism changed to any criticism of the Israel or its actions such as the murder of innocent Palestinians?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 28, 2019, 09:41:05 PM
Quote from: under the bar on November 28, 2019, 09:29:44 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on November 28, 2019, 09:12:41 PM
Of course Israel and pro-Israel interests are behind the smears on Corbyn and his supporters.

It's the oldest trick in the book. Look at what they've done to Ilhan Omar in the US while ignoring the litany of virulent anti-Semitism from Trump and the Republicans.

Funny how the media doesn't mention actual instances of anti-Semitism from opponents of Corbyn within Labour.

Like, the guy who's the actual spokesman for an organisation called Labour Against Anti-Semitism, Euan Philipps, who isn't Jewish, called Corbyn supporting journalist Eleanor Penny, who is Jewish, "a blackshirt".

Labour MP Siobhan McDonagh said that "to be anti-capitalist automatically makes you anti-Semitic". That's a classic anti-Semitic trope.

Neither of these two instances of actual anti-Semtism are ever cited by the media. Why? Because Philipps and McDonagh both hate Corbyn.

It would disturb the narrative.

Have a look at the Tories even. There's a litany of anti-Semitism there. Boris Johnson continually commissioned a virulent anti-Semite, Taki Theodoracopulos, to write anti-Semitic propaganda for The Spectator when he was editor - Theodoracopoulos still writes for The Spectator!

Jacob Rees-Mogg, Michael Gove, Andrew Bridgen, James Cleverley, all use or have used anti-Semitic tropes. A Tory candidate in this election had to stand down for being caught out as a Holocaust denier!

Yet none of this is cited by the press as evidence of the Tories having an anti-Semtism problem, which they actually have.

The only prominent Tory to be accused of being an anti-Semite in my memory is Alan Duncan, who categorically is not an anti-Semite. Why was he accused? Because, rarely for a Tory, he knows what he's talking about when it comes to the Israel/Palestine situation and spoke out forcefully against Israel's disgraceful bombing of Gaza in 2014 which killed thousands, and over 500 children.

An Israeli diplomat was literally caught on hidden camera by Al Jazeera saying that he had to be "taken down".

If you're in any sort of prominent position in politics or the media and publicly oppose Israeli policy, it is very likely you will be smeared as an anti-Semite.
+1
Didn't the Israeli government attempt to get the UN definition of anti-semitism changed to any criticism of the Israel or its actions such as the murder of innocent Palestinians?
You would have to run that past Gallsman.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 28, 2019, 10:29:50 PM
Johnson going from bad to worse, as anticipated he is having a dire campaign and is becoming more exposed as the charlatan that's he is the longer it goes on. The Tories can't even trust him to face the cameras yet he is the prime minister in waiting. I still think there will be a late surge in the Labour vote in the last 2 weeks.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: sid waddell on November 28, 2019, 10:41:29 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 28, 2019, 10:29:50 PM
Johnson going from bad to worse, as anticipated he is having a dire campaign and is becoming more exposed as the charlatan that's he is the longer it goes on. The Tories can't even trust him to face the cameras yet he is the prime minister in waiting. I still think there will be a late surge in the Labour vote in the last 2 weeks.
It's pathetic the way he's hiding, he wouldn't do C4's climate debate tonight and won't face Andrew Neil

The Tories are resorting to putting out people nobody has heard of for media engagements now because their whole front bench is made up of complete liabilities

Most of the UK media has turned full Fox News, C4 is one of the honourable exceptions

Johnson has now threatened to revoke C4's broadcasting licence because Gove wasn't admitted to the debate

It was the other leaders who rightly kept him out, not C4

C4 replaced Johnson and Farage with dripping ice blocks

The Tories are going apeshit, let them, they completely brought it on themselves

Johnson's threat to C4 is Putin-esque
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Saffrongael on November 28, 2019, 10:42:59 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 28, 2019, 10:29:50 PM
Johnson going from bad to worse, as anticipated he is having a dire campaign and is becoming more exposed as the charlatan that's he is the longer it goes on. The Tories can't even trust him to face the cameras yet he is the prime minister in waiting. I still think there will be a late surge in the Labour vote in the last 2 weeks.

Unfortunately if it was anyone other than Corbyn this GE would be a cakewalk for Labour, almost ten years of the Tories and they look likely to get a majority. Incredible
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 28, 2019, 11:02:16 PM
Quote from: Saffrongael on November 28, 2019, 10:42:59 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 28, 2019, 10:29:50 PM
Johnson going from bad to worse, as anticipated he is having a dire campaign and is becoming more exposed as the charlatan that's he is the longer it goes on. The Tories can't even trust him to face the cameras yet he is the prime minister in waiting. I still think there will be a late surge in the Labour vote in the last 2 weeks.

Unfortunately if it was anyone other than Corbyn this GE would be a cakewalk for Labour, almost ten years of the Tories and they look likely to get a majority. Incredible

What position would this non-Corbyn alternative take on Brexit?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: sid waddell on November 28, 2019, 11:42:46 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/mar/07/debunking-myth-that-anti-zionism-is-antisemitic

All over the world, it is an alarming time to be Jewish – but conflating anti-Zionism with Jew-hatred is a tragic mistake

by Peter Beinart

It is a bewildering and alarming time to be a Jew, both because antisemitism is rising and because so many politicians are responding to it not by protecting Jews but by victimising Palestinians.

On 16 February, members of France's yellow vest protest movement hurled antisemitic insults at the distinguished French Jewish philosopher Alain Finkielkraut. On 19 February, swastikas were found on 80 gravestones in Alsace. Two days later, the French president, Emmanuel Macron, after announcing that Europe was "facing a resurgence of antisemitism unseen since World War II", unveiled new measures to fight it.

Among them was a new official definition of antisemitism. That definition, produced by the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance in 2016, includes among its "contemporary examples" of antisemitism "denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination". In other words, anti-Zionism is Jew hatred. In so doing, Macron joined Germany, Britain, the United States and roughly 30 other governments. And like them, he made a tragic mistake.

Anti-Zionism is not inherently antisemitic – and claiming it is uses Jewish suffering to erase the Palestinian experience. Yes, antisemitism is growing. Yes, world leaders must fight it fiercely. But in the words of a great Zionist thinker, "This is not the way".
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 29, 2019, 05:41:24 AM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/11/28/fear-tories-may-yet-blow-election/


« Meanwhile, there's no sign of bold Boris. He looks at times as if he is fighting the last campaign, terrified of messing things up as Theresa May did.

I fear the Tories may yet blow this election

Over the seven days that YouGov took to complete its complicated new poll, its forecast for a Tory majority fell by 16 seats. If this trend continues – and why shouldn't it? – there might not be any majority left at all. »

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 29, 2019, 07:07:38 AM
Regarding this part of the IHRA definition :

"Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation"

So if the US goes to war that means it's OK for Israel to bomb the shit out of Gaza.
Israel spent the 2014 assault on Gaza arguing that International law no longer applies to the conflict there.

This IHRA definition is dangerous for  few reasons , one of which is the safety of Jews outside Israel in the future. If powers can do whatever they want, they will.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Franko on November 29, 2019, 09:20:30 AM
Quote from: gallsman on November 28, 2019, 06:52:19 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 28, 2019, 06:26:12 PM
And that definition basically says you can't criticise it without being racist.

Jesus Christ, no it doesn't. It states that Jewish community institutions (Israel in your example) can be victims/targets of antisemitism.

It says nothing about criticising Israel being anti-Semitic.

This is one of the "guidelines" for interpretation of this definition, which the IHRA publish along with their definition.  To do the below is racist.

Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

Netanyahu could literally start to gas civilians and anyone who compared it to the Nazis would be a racist.  It's absolute carte blanche nonsense.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: bennydorano on November 29, 2019, 09:28:35 AM
Tory strategists are getting it 100% right by hiding their halfwits and muddying the waters with everything they do.  Unfortunately the general public don't care for 2 reasons - Little England is Brexit obsessed and want it delivered no matter what and Corbyn is ultimately a (well meaning) liability. Those predicting a Labour bounce are clutching, nothing has changed.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on November 29, 2019, 10:23:33 AM
Quote from: Franko on November 29, 2019, 09:20:30 AM
Quote from: gallsman on November 28, 2019, 06:52:19 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 28, 2019, 06:26:12 PM
And that definition basically says you can't criticise it without being racist.

Jesus Christ, no it doesn't. It states that Jewish community institutions (Israel in your example) can be victims/targets of antisemitism.

It says nothing about criticising Israel being anti-Semitic.

This is one of the "guidelines" for interpretation of this definition, which the IHRA publish along with their definition.  To do the below is racist.

Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

Netanyahu could literally start to gas civilians and anyone who compared it to the Nazis would be a racist.  It's absolute carte blanche nonsense.

Saddam Hussein gassed civilians but it would be ridiculous to compare him to the Nazis. If Netanyahu did anything like that, he'd be out on his ear within days. He heads a coalition government with a slender parliamentary majority. The fact that you ignore this in making such a ludicrous point suggests why the IHRA definition is needed in the first instance.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 29, 2019, 10:46:30 AM

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/11/28/fear-tories-may-yet-blow-election/
I fear the Tories may yet blow this election
FRASER NELSON
Follow   Fraser Nelson28 NOVEMBER 2019 • 9:30PM

Boris Johnson needs to be bolder in this campaign to avoid the fate of his predecessor, Theresa May CREDIT: BOB MORAN
In the downstairs loo at The Spectator hang magazine covers that were never published because the events they depict never happened. Hillary Clinton as president in the Oval Office, Jeremy Hunt stepping into in 10 Downing Street – in an era of historical surprises and tight deadlines, we have to be prepared. Our Christmas issue goes to press the morning after the general election so artwork options are needed now. The 'Labour wins' cover shows a crib with a baby Corbyn instead of a saviour, with three wise men looking on in horror. It's quite funny. Or it would be, if its implications were not so serious.

You might think all this a waste of an artist's time. Most polls suggest that the only question is whether Boris Johnson wins by a modest margin or by a landslide. YouGov have a sophisticated new polling model, tested in the last US Congress elections, which points to a 68-seat Tory majority. Sir John Curtice, the doyen of opinion pollsters, says the chances of a Corbyn majority now are "as close to zero as one can safely say." Once, I'd have agreed. But I'm afraid I think the Tories are still capable of blowing this, for quite a few reasons.

It's quite true that Jeremy Corbyn is having a tough campaign, having been eviscerated in television interviews with the Chief Rabbi now lined up against him. But we have to ask: how damaging is this, really? Support for Labour has been growing steadily since the election was called, just as it did in 2017. Anti-Semitism accusations were quite audible last time around and didn't stop Labour picking up enough support to deny the Tories a majority. The worse the headlines are for Corbyn, the higher his support seems to climb.

Let's not pretend that the Corbyn agenda is dismissed nationwide as a socialist calamity-in-waiting. His plans to nationalise water, railways, electricity and gas are supported by about half of all voters; his idea for a British Broadband Corporation is backed by a margin of three to one. So if you think Corbynomics is too radical, too off-the-wall to ever win an election, think again. Voters certainly regard it as impractical but there is a lot more public sympathy with his overall aims (and worldview) than the likes of like me normally admit.

The headlines are bad, but less harmful in an age when more people get their news from social media than from any newspaper. There's no shortage of anti-Tory material in cyberspace: you can read that a Tory victory will mean selling the NHS to Americans, women paying to give birth, and worse. The wilder the conspiracy theory the more likely it is to be shared online. Almost a third of the electorate now regard the Prime Minister as racist, probably even more believe another internet trope that Tory austerity killed thousands. There is no 'gatekeeper' in social media, no one to be held to account if false information is spread. It's a new game that the Tories are not very good at playing.



Meanwhile, there's no sign of bold Boris. He looks at times as if he is fighting the last campaign, terrified of messing things up as Theresa May did. Timidity doesn't suit him. To have him tiptoeing around the campaign like a pull-string doll saying "Get Brexit Done" every time it is prodded is a waste of his wit and energy. Ducking the Andrew Neil interviews braved by all other leaders risks giving a sense of complacency, as if he thinks victory is in the bag and that he doesn't need to say anything more to earn votes. Which is odd because he is, by instinct, a who-dares-wins kind of leader. We could see a bit more of his daring.

Expectations of a big Tory victory, of course, make such a victory far less likely – especially if the Tory Remainers calculate that they can risk staying at home or even vote Lib Dem to punish the party for its Brexiteering. Almost four million have registered to vote since the election was called, a million more than at the same stage last time. They're overwhelmingly younger voters, ergo far less likely to vote Tory. What effect will this have? We have no idea, which complicates things further. One of the main reasons pollsters keep getting elections so wrong is that they can never be sure who will turn out to vote.

Pollsters also struggle in guessing which way the don't-knows will jump. Even now, after all we know about Jeremy Corbyn and all that's been said about Brexit, one in six voters remain undecided. It could be that that the Tories have already squeezed as much as they can from the Brexit vote and most don't-knows will break for Labour. Over the seven days that YouGov took to complete its complicated new poll, its forecast for a Tory majority fell by 16 seats. If this trend continues – and why shouldn't it? – there might not be any majority left at all.


Into this delicate moment leaps Donald Trump, the star guest at next week's Nato summit in London. He's keen to help the Tories, which is what is so dangerous. On his last visit, he thought it helpful to say that the NHS would be "on the table" in any US-UK trade talks. This yielded a video clip that anti-Tory campaigners now project on the side of hospitals, seen as proof that the NHS will be sacrificed on the capitalist altar. On his last visit, Trump kept British officials waiting for ages on Heathrow tarmac while he composed a tweet denouncing Sadiq Khan, the Mayor of London. The Corbynites will be praying for another denunciation this time around.

The last election was summed up best, as so often, by a Matt cartoon in this newspaper. It showed two children catching butterflies with one saying to the other: "My dad's an opinion pollster. I hope he never loses that sense of wonder and surprise at election results."

It's quite possible that pollsters' curse is broken this time, that they learn from their (years of) mistakes. But it's also possible that Labour's rise continues, driven by forces the Tories can't understand or combat, leading to yet another hung parliament. Or worse. Unlikely? Perhaps. But impossible? Absolutely not.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Franko on November 29, 2019, 11:05:06 AM
Quote from: five points on November 29, 2019, 10:23:33 AM
Quote from: Franko on November 29, 2019, 09:20:30 AM
Quote from: gallsman on November 28, 2019, 06:52:19 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 28, 2019, 06:26:12 PM
And that definition basically says you can't criticise it without being racist.

Jesus Christ, no it doesn't. It states that Jewish community institutions (Israel in your example) can be victims/targets of antisemitism.

It says nothing about criticising Israel being anti-Semitic.

This is one of the "guidelines" for interpretation of this definition, which the IHRA publish along with their definition.  To do the below is racist.

Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

Netanyahu could literally start to gas civilians and anyone who compared it to the Nazis would be a racist.  It's absolute carte blanche nonsense.

Saddam Hussein gassed civilians but it would be ridiculous to compare him to the Nazis. If Netanyahu did anything like that, he'd be out on his ear within days. He heads a coalition government with a slender parliamentary majority. The fact that you ignore this in making such a ludicrous point suggests why the IHRA definition is needed in the first instance.

On what planet would it be ridiculous to compare a government which gassed civilians to a government which gassed civilians?

Netanyahu has shot plenty of civilians and hasn't managed to get turfed out yet.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on November 29, 2019, 11:11:35 AM
Quote from: Franko on November 29, 2019, 11:05:06 AM
On what planet would it be ridiculous to compare a government which gassed civilians to a government which gassed civilians?

On any one that equates Saddam Hussein and Adolf Hitler.

Quote
Netanyahu has shot plenty of civilians and hasn't managed to get turfed out yet.

Lots of world leaders have done the same yet Israel always gets singled out.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 29, 2019, 11:23:54 AM
BBC have refused Johnson for the Andrew Marr show they say it has to be Neil!!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 29, 2019, 11:24:32 AM
Quote from: Franko on November 29, 2019, 09:20:30 AM
Quote from: gallsman on November 28, 2019, 06:52:19 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 28, 2019, 06:26:12 PM
And that definition basically says you can't criticise it without being racist.

Jesus Christ, no it doesn't. It states that Jewish community institutions (Israel in your example) can be victims/targets of antisemitism.

It says nothing about criticising Israel being anti-Semitic.


This is one of the "guidelines" for interpretation of this definition, which the IHRA publish along with their definition.  To do the below is racist.

Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

Netanyahu could literally start to gas civilians and anyone who compared it to the Nazis would be a racist.  It's absolute carte blanche nonsense.
The point of it is to be vague enough that criticism of Israel can be classed as antisemitic.
Zionists love whataboutery. As long as something worse than blowing up families is going on elsewhere it makes Israel blowing up families ok. 

Israel is losing support across Europe and this is the response.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on November 29, 2019, 11:30:53 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 29, 2019, 11:24:32 AM
Quote from: Franko on November 29, 2019, 09:20:30 AM
Quote from: gallsman on November 28, 2019, 06:52:19 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 28, 2019, 06:26:12 PM
And that definition basically says you can't criticise it without being racist.

Jesus Christ, no it doesn't. It states that Jewish community institutions (Israel in your example) can be victims/targets of antisemitism.

It says nothing about criticising Israel being anti-Semitic.


This is one of the "guidelines" for interpretation of this definition, which the IHRA publish along with their definition.  To do the below is racist.

Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

Netanyahu could literally start to gas civilians and anyone who compared it to the Nazis would be a racist.  It's absolute carte blanche nonsense.
The point of it is to be vague enough that criticism of Israel can be classed as antisemitic.
Zionists love whataboutery. As long as something worse than blowing up families is going on elsewhere it makes Israel blowing up families ok. 

Israel is losing support across Europe and this is the response.

"Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis" is not at all vague, but very specific.  No other modern State gets routinely compared to and conflated with the Nazis.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 29, 2019, 11:37:20 AM
Quote from: screenexile on November 29, 2019, 11:23:54 AM
BBC have refused Johnson for the Andrew Marr show they say it has to be Neil!!
https://www.ft.com/content/9b8d7468-11e8-11ea-a7e6-62bf4f9e548a
"Tory campaigners are weighing up the risk of Mr Johnson participating in an interview with Mr Neil against the danger of the prime minister being portrayed as a coward."
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Franko on November 29, 2019, 11:39:50 AM
Quote from: five points on November 29, 2019, 11:11:35 AM
Quote from: Franko on November 29, 2019, 11:05:06 AM
On what planet would it be ridiculous to compare a government which gassed civilians to a government which gassed civilians?

On any one that equates Saddam Hussein and Adolf Hitler.

Quote
Netanyahu has shot plenty of civilians and hasn't managed to get turfed out yet.

Lots of world leaders have done the same yet Israel always gets singled out.

Who's doing that?  The guideline doesn't mention the leaders.  It mentions policy.  And if one has a policy of gassing civilians and so does the other, they are entitled to be compared.

And singled out?  You couldn't have put it any better.
If other nations behaved the way Israel did, they'd be bombed into oblivion.  Singled out indeed.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on November 29, 2019, 11:42:56 AM
Quote from: Franko on November 29, 2019, 11:39:50 AM
If other nations behaved the way Israel did, they'd be bombed into oblivion.  Singled out indeed.

One word: China.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on November 29, 2019, 11:44:15 AM
Quote from: Franko on November 29, 2019, 11:39:50 AM
Who's doing that?  The guideline doesn't mention the leaders.  It mentions policy.  And if one has a policy of gassing civilians and so does the other, they are entitled to be compared.


If you think Hitler was no worse than Saddam Hussein, I can't help you.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Franko on November 29, 2019, 11:48:26 AM
Quote from: five points on November 29, 2019, 11:44:15 AM
Quote from: Franko on November 29, 2019, 11:39:50 AM
Who's doing that?  The guideline doesn't mention the leaders.  It mentions policy.  And if one has a policy of gassing civilians and so does the other, they are entitled to be compared.


If you think Hitler was no worse than Saddam Hussein, I can't help you.

If you have to resort to straw men, you're a beaten docket.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Franko on November 29, 2019, 11:48:48 AM
Quote from: five points on November 29, 2019, 11:42:56 AM
Quote from: Franko on November 29, 2019, 11:39:50 AM
If other nations behaved the way Israel did, they'd be bombed into oblivion.  Singled out indeed.

One word: China.

Racist!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on November 29, 2019, 11:53:42 AM
Quote from: Franko on November 29, 2019, 11:48:48 AM
Quote from: five points on November 29, 2019, 11:42:56 AM
Quote from: Franko on November 29, 2019, 11:39:50 AM
If other nations behaved the way Israel did, they'd be bombed into oblivion.  Singled out indeed.

One word: China.

Racist!
If you want to call me racist for daring to mention China locking up a million or more Muslims in camps, fire away.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on November 29, 2019, 11:55:18 AM
Quote from: Franko on November 29, 2019, 11:48:26 AM
Quote from: five points on November 29, 2019, 11:44:15 AM
Quote from: Franko on November 29, 2019, 11:39:50 AM
Who's doing that?  The guideline doesn't mention the leaders.  It mentions policy.  And if one has a policy of gassing civilians and so does the other, they are entitled to be compared.


If you think Hitler was no worse than Saddam Hussein, I can't help you.

If you have to resort to straw men, you're a beaten docket.

The straw man is yours 
Quote from: Frankoif one has a policy of gassing civilians and so does the other, they are entitled to be compared.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Franko on November 29, 2019, 11:58:58 AM
Quote from: five points on November 29, 2019, 11:55:18 AM
Quote from: Franko on November 29, 2019, 11:48:26 AM
Quote from: five points on November 29, 2019, 11:44:15 AM
Quote from: Franko on November 29, 2019, 11:39:50 AM
Who's doing that?  The guideline doesn't mention the leaders.  It mentions policy.  And if one has a policy of gassing civilians and so does the other, they are entitled to be compared.


If you think Hitler was no worse than Saddam Hussein, I can't help you.

If you have to resort to straw men, you're a beaten docket.

The straw man is yours 
Quote from: Frankoif one has a policy of gassing civilians and so does the other, they are entitled to be compared.

;D

And the cherry on top... you show us all that you don't even understand the concept.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Franko on November 29, 2019, 11:59:52 AM
Quote from: five points on November 29, 2019, 11:53:42 AM
Quote from: Franko on November 29, 2019, 11:48:48 AM
Quote from: five points on November 29, 2019, 11:42:56 AM
Quote from: Franko on November 29, 2019, 11:39:50 AM
If other nations behaved the way Israel did, they'd be bombed into oblivion.  Singled out indeed.

One word: China.

Racist!
If you want to call me racist for daring to mention China locking up a million or more Muslims in camps, fire away.

Sauce for the goose and all that...
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: magpie seanie on November 29, 2019, 12:01:39 PM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 28, 2019, 03:04:30 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 28, 2019, 02:33:15 PM
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/writingfromtheedge/2019/11/as-a-british-jew-im-not-fearful-of-a-corbyn-government-but-im-horrified-at-how-antisemitism-is-being-used-against-him/ (https://www.patheos.com/blogs/writingfromtheedge/2019/11/as-a-british-jew-im-not-fearful-of-a-corbyn-government-but-im-horrified-at-how-antisemitism-is-being-used-against-him/)

Gallsman and others who buy into this rubbish - have a read of this. It explains in great detail what the factual position is - very hard to contest any of it. The anti-semitism reported (and dealt with might I add) in the Labour party is below that of regular society. It's all a political strategy and it's quite vile and disgusting and undermines combating real anti-semitism.

Trawling the internet to clutch a straw to back up your position  8)

You would be here all day posting links with the opposite viewpoint from Jews

And you are holding someone that wants to be PM to the same standard as "regular society", have heard it all.

As it happens I didn't "trawl the internet" - it was something I saw pretty soon after reading the posts on here. Read the article and tell me what's incorrect in it as it's a far better verbalisation of my own feeling on the matter than I could muster myself.

As for this leap -
QuoteAnd you are holding someone that wants to be PM to the same standard as "regular society", have heard it all.
- my point was that Labour, according the the statistics, has less incidents of anti-semitism than you'd get in normal society. One case is obviously too many but it makes the point that it's hardly a massive "Labour only" issue when it's less of an issue than in the population as a whole.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: magpie seanie on November 29, 2019, 12:03:53 PM
Quote from: Kidder81 on November 28, 2019, 05:20:36 PM
Quote from: gallsman on November 28, 2019, 05:19:17 PM
Rather than frantically googling global research.ca articles, why don't you just refer to the IHRA definition and its accompanying examples directly? They're all very easily accessed and, as you've obviously studied them closely, would understand that they take about 30 seconds to read.

All you are able to do is, continuously, repost (incorrect) opinion pieces. You are a liar.

And seems to have Magpie Seanie as a willing apprentice

What are you on about?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 29, 2019, 12:14:35 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 29, 2019, 11:23:54 AM
BBC have refused Johnson for the Andrew Marr show they say it has to be Neil!!

A step in the right direction.

They should refuse all Tory's airtime till Boris agrees a date/time immediately.

(https://cf-images.eu-west-1.prod.boltdns.net/v1/static/4221396001/0dd8531e-b2a9-4312-8e9f-36160638aa8e/f336b7f3-4160-4263-8523-7dbd46ce6a9c/1280x720/match/image.jpg)
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 29, 2019, 01:00:23 PM
The Tory campaign is well run and organised. Similar to the Leave.EU campaign. They're keeping Johnston out of the clutches of other leaders especially Sturgeon who would tear him another him. They are also keeping him away from the good interviewers, Neil, and others on Ch4. They've honed in on a few weaknesses in the Labour party policy and rammed it down the throats of the electorate. Brexit. Corbyn can't be trusted. Over and over and over again.

Labour on the other hand with their spending plans and wishy washy Brexit policy as well as Corbyn appear toxic.
Corbyn is a good man. Well meaning. But he has no charisma. And that is everything in this game. You have to be able to carry a crowd. I am no fan of Nigel Farage but their is no doubt that he has pushed the anti EU message in the UK for well over 20 years despite never having been elected to the HOC. He is box office and attracts a following. Corbyn attracts that studenty protesty type, grand people but not gonna get you elected. 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 29, 2019, 01:16:26 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 29, 2019, 01:00:23 PM
The Tory campaign is well run and organised. Similar to the Leave.EU campaign. They're keeping Johnston out of the clutches of other leaders especially Sturgeon who would tear him another him. They are also keeping him away from the good interviewers, Neil, and others on Ch4. They've honed in on a few weaknesses in the Labour party policy and rammed it down the throats of the electorate. Brexit. Corbyn can't be trusted. Over and over and over again.

Labour on the other hand with their spending plans and wishy washy Brexit policy as well as Corbyn appear toxic.
Corbyn is a good man. Well meaning. But he has no charisma. And that is everything in this game. You have to be able to carry a crowd. I am no fan of Nigel Farage but their is no doubt that he has pushed the anti EU message in the UK for well over 20 years despite never having been elected to the HOC. He is box office and attracts a following. Corbyn attracts that studenty protesty type, grand people but not gonna get you elected.

Tory campaign is well run. It is a national shame that the lies and cowardice are not being exposed. The failure of media scrutiny and the seeming ease with which they can evade it is likely to have ramifications beyond this election.

The toxicity of the Tory plans to basically sit back a do nothing about food banks, universal credit, the manifold aspects of the housing crisis and working conditions should be deeply concerning to anyone who cares about society. The failure to put anything forward on social care is as scary as anything in this election.

How would you describe LDs policy of revoke Article 50 without a second referendum? Can you see that working electorally or as a post election policy?
Are you happy with the Tory Brexit stance? Are you ok with no deal or do you think it is completely ruled out
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 29, 2019, 01:25:36 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 29, 2019, 01:00:23 PM
The Tory campaign is well run and organised. Similar to the Leave.EU campaign. They're keeping Johnston out of the clutches of other leaders especially Sturgeon who would tear him another him. They are also keeping him away from the good interviewers, Neil, and others on Ch4. They've honed in on a few weaknesses in the Labour party policy and rammed it down the throats of the electorate. Brexit. Corbyn can't be trusted. Over and over and over again.

Labour on the other hand with their spending plans and wishy washy Brexit policy as well as Corbyn appear toxic.
Corbyn is a good man. Well meaning. But he has no charisma. And that is everything in this game. You have to be able to carry a crowd. I am no fan of Nigel Farage but their is no doubt that he has pushed the anti EU message in the UK for well over 20 years despite never having been elected to the HOC. He is box office and attracts a following. Corbyn attracts that studenty protesty type, grand people but not gonna get you elected.
People like the editor of the Spectator and some of the FT columnists are wondering if the Tory strategy is enough. Johnson repeats "get Brexit done" over and over. During the time the yougov poll was in preparation the Tory lead contracted by almost 5%. Are the tories on top of things ?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 29, 2019, 01:59:55 PM
I don't support the Tories. So pointing out stuff about food banks etc isn't what I am getting into. What I am saying very clearly is that they recognise their own weaknesses, basically the entire front bench is a liability and the less time they spend in front of the camera the better and their strengths, Johnston lacks any substance but can get a few soundbites, he can make people laugh and that with a bit of hard work and belief things will be fantastic.

Contrast this with the Labour campaign. Corbyn who is grey and dull as dishwater is rolled out all over the place and he has loads of substance but cannot engage. Their policies are delivered in such a monotone that people literally turn off.

Politics is theatre and the failure to recognise that is a serious shortcoming in labours policy. Sorry not policy but strategy. 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 29, 2019, 02:15:07 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 29, 2019, 01:59:55 PM
I don't support the Tories. So pointing out stuff about food banks etc isn't what I am getting into. What I am saying very clearly is that they recognise their own weaknesses, basically the entire front bench is a liability and the less time they spend in front of the camera the better and their strengths, Johnston lacks any substance but can get a few soundbites, he can make people laugh and that with a bit of hard work and belief things will be fantastic.

Contrast this with the Labour campaign. Corbyn who is grey and dull as dishwater is rolled out all over the place and he has loads of substance but cannot engage. Their policies are delivered in such a monotone that people literally turn off.

Politics is theatre and the failure to recognise that is a serious shortcoming in labours policy. Sorry not policy but strategy.

So parking delivery for a minute how would you judge the policies of Tories, Labour and LDs?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: maddog on November 29, 2019, 02:43:49 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 29, 2019, 01:59:55 PM


Politics is theatre and the failure to recognise that is a serious shortcoming in labours policy. Sorry not policy but strategy.

I suppose that partially explains why snake oil salesmen like Farage exist. No substance just vote for the biggest bullshitter. The electorate get the politicians they deserve in the end.


Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 29, 2019, 03:28:36 PM
Quote from: maddog on November 29, 2019, 02:43:49 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 29, 2019, 01:59:55 PM


Politics is theatre and the failure to recognise that is a serious shortcoming in labours policy. Sorry not policy but strategy.

I suppose that partially explains why snake oil salesmen like Farage exist. No substance just vote for the biggest bullshitter. The electorate get the politicians they deserve in the end.

Trailer has a point though.

Keep the message simple and drive it home at every opportunity. Never worry about facts or details seems to be the way forward.
Easier done with a complicit media all the same.

The Tory lad on QT last night Brandon someone or other was pissed off at the end as Brexit wasn't really discussed and he'd his arse handed to him by all and sundry on the NHS.

Labour need to keep hammering on about the NHS and forget about Nationalisation, broadband and the likes. That can happen later when you're in power.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: maddog on November 29, 2019, 03:40:16 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 29, 2019, 03:28:36 PM
Quote from: maddog on November 29, 2019, 02:43:49 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 29, 2019, 01:59:55 PM


Politics is theatre and the failure to recognise that is a serious shortcoming in labours policy. Sorry not policy but strategy.

I suppose that partially explains why snake oil salesmen like Farage exist. No substance just vote for the biggest bullshitter. The electorate get the politicians they deserve in the end.

Trailer has a point though.

Keep the message simple and drive it home at every opportunity. Never worry about facts or details seems to be the way forward.
Easier done with a complicit media all the same.

The Tory lad on QT last night Brandon someone or other was pissed off at the end as Brexit wasn't really discussed and he'd his arse handed to him by all and sundry on the NHS.

Labour need to keep hammering on about the NHS and forget about Nationalisation, broadband and the likes. That can happen later when you're in power.

I know trailer has a good point. It is just disappointing that more people can't see through the bullshit. "get brexit done" "strong and stable" etc etc.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 29, 2019, 03:40:25 PM
Quote from: maddog on November 29, 2019, 02:43:49 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 29, 2019, 01:59:55 PM


Politics is theatre and the failure to recognise that is a serious shortcoming in labours policy. Sorry not policy but strategy.
The problem
I suppose that partially explains why snake oil salesmen like Farage exist. No substance just vote for the biggest bullshitter. The electorate get the politicians they deserve in the end.
There is a quote from H Mencken who called democracy « the art of giving the common people what they want, good and hard »
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: maddog on November 29, 2019, 03:44:09 PM
Attack on London Bridge this afternoon. One man shot on ground by looks of it after being disarmed but that is just initial impression. Will feature in the electioneering no doubt.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: maddog on November 29, 2019, 03:51:50 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 29, 2019, 03:40:25 PM
Quote from: maddog on November 29, 2019, 02:43:49 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 29, 2019, 01:59:55 PM


Politics is theatre and the failure to recognise that is a serious shortcoming in labours policy. Sorry not policy but strategy.
The problem
I suppose that partially explains why snake oil salesmen like Farage exist. No substance just vote for the biggest bullshitter. The electorate get the politicians they deserve in the end.
There is a quote from H Mencken who called democracy « the art of giving the common people what they want, good and hard »

If they return a Johnson majority that quote will be quite apt.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 29, 2019, 04:02:25 PM
Quote from: maddog on November 29, 2019, 03:51:50 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 29, 2019, 03:40:25 PM
Quote from: maddog on November 29, 2019, 02:43:49 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 29, 2019, 01:59:55 PM


Politics is theatre and the failure to recognise that is a serious shortcoming in labours policy. Sorry not policy but strategy.
The problem
I suppose that partially explains why snake oil salesmen like Farage exist. No substance just vote for the biggest bullshitter. The electorate get the politicians they deserve in the end.
There is a quote from H Mencken who called democracy « the art of giving the common people what they want, good and hard »

If they return a Johnson majority that quote will be quite apt.
That quote reminds me of Brexit
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 29, 2019, 04:29:45 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 29, 2019, 03:40:25 PM
Quote from: maddog on November 29, 2019, 02:43:49 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 29, 2019, 01:59:55 PM


Politics is theatre and the failure to recognise that is a serious shortcoming in labours policy. Sorry not policy but strategy.
The problem
I suppose that partially explains why snake oil salesmen like Farage exist. No substance just vote for the biggest bullshitter. The electorate get the politicians they deserve in the end.
There is a quote from H Mencken who called democracy « the art of giving the common people what they want, good and hard »

Maybe not the best person to quote given the anti-semitism "debate" ongoing
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 29, 2019, 04:36:37 PM
Quote from: maddog on November 29, 2019, 03:40:16 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 29, 2019, 03:28:36 PM
Quote from: maddog on November 29, 2019, 02:43:49 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 29, 2019, 01:59:55 PM


Politics is theatre and the failure to recognise that is a serious shortcoming in labours policy. Sorry not policy but strategy.

I suppose that partially explains why snake oil salesmen like Farage exist. No substance just vote for the biggest bullshitter. The electorate get the politicians they deserve in the end.

Trailer has a point though.

Keep the message simple and drive it home at every opportunity. Never worry about facts or details seems to be the way forward.
Easier done with a complicit media all the same.

The Tory lad on QT last night Brandon someone or other was pissed off at the end as Brexit wasn't really discussed and he'd his arse handed to him by all and sundry on the NHS.

Labour need to keep hammering on about the NHS and forget about Nationalisation, broadband and the likes. That can happen later when you're in power.

I know trailer has a good point. It is just disappointing that more people can't see through the bullshit. "get brexit done" "strong and stable" etc etc.

If we start trying to out-Boris Boris or out-Trump Trump (maybe out-Donald the Donald would sound better) the world is bucked.

It is not inevitable that simplistic sloganeering and populism has to win. We don't have to engage in a race to the bottom. In the long term the arc always bends towards progress (to bastardise MLK's fine words)
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on November 29, 2019, 04:54:04 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 29, 2019, 04:36:37 PM
If we start trying to out-Boris Boris or out-Trump Trump (maybe out-Donald the Donald would sound better) the world is bucked.

It is not inevitable that simplistic sloganeering and populism has to win. We don't have to engage in a race to the bottom. In the long term the arc always bends towards progress (to bastardise MLK's fine words)

The most successful sloganeering populist of the past quarter century was Labour's Tony Blair. The arc certainly didn't bend towards progress in his time nor in the decade following. Trump for all his faults hasn't at least as yet started a huge war like Blair did and all indications are that neither he nor Boris have any inclination in doing so.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on November 29, 2019, 05:21:42 PM
Representative democracy is fukked.

Its quite clear that its gonna collapse on itself at some point in the fairly near future.

How many people can honestly say MPs/TDs/Congressmen/women/Senators/etc are championing the needs of constituents ahead of the needs of their "financial sponsors"?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: magpie seanie on November 29, 2019, 05:37:14 PM
It's crystal clear what the Tories strategy is - that's 100% the case as outlined by a few posters above, started off by Trailer. What is frustrating for many is that they're not being lambasted and vilified for it in the way other parties and leaders would be, particularly Corbyn and Labour. The observation of politics being theatre holds weight. It of course shouldn't be but again it suits media for clicks and adverts to make it so. It does pose serious quesions for representative democracy as we've known it. That and the apparent (I think it's definite) increase in selfishness and decrease in compassion for others.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 29, 2019, 06:33:37 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 29, 2019, 05:37:14 PM
It's crystal clear what the Tories strategy is - that's 100% the case as outlined by a few posters above, started off by Trailer. What is frustrating for many is that they're not being lambasted and vilified for it in the way other parties and leaders would be, particularly Corbyn and Labour. The observation of politics being theatre holds weight. It of course shouldn't be but again it suits media for clicks and adverts to make it so. It does pose serious quesions for representative democracy as we've known it. That and the apparent (I think it's definite) increase in selfishness and decrease in compassion for others.
The Tory strategy is very simple but the second and third priorities of voters (Brexit is first) are the NHS and the environment and Labour are stronger on both
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: magpie seanie on November 29, 2019, 07:07:47 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 29, 2019, 06:33:37 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 29, 2019, 05:37:14 PM
It's crystal clear what the Tories strategy is - that's 100% the case as outlined by a few posters above, started off by Trailer. What is frustrating for many is that they're not being lambasted and vilified for it in the way other parties and leaders would be, particularly Corbyn and Labour. The observation of politics being theatre holds weight. It of course shouldn't be but again it suits media for clicks and adverts to make it so. It does pose serious quesions for representative democracy as we've known it. That and the apparent (I think it's definite) increase in selfishness and decrease in compassion for others.
The Tory strategy is very simple but the second and third priorities of voters (Brexit is first) are the NHS and the environment and Labour are stronger on both

Personally I think Labour are much stronger on Brexit too. It's the only sensible approach the try and untangle the UK from the whole ridiculous mess. The other policies are (Tory) the referendum meant leave on any terms with any consequences or (LibDems) the referendum was full of misinformation so it really meant remain. Neither can be true. Get the full facts on the table and have it done with for once and for all.

I've not given up hope. It's a massive challenge is all I'd point out.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 29, 2019, 08:38:58 PM
https://m.facebook.com/michael.rosen.5496/posts/10157626523532225
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 30, 2019, 07:51:26 AM
Senior hurling

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/11/29/boris-johnsons-predicted-commons-majority-slashed-80-12-week/

« Boris Johnson's predicted Commons majority slashed from 80 to 12 in a week, poll of polls reveals

Labour is squeezing the Liberal Democrats by gaining Remain voters who see the party as the better prospect to block Mr Johnson's bid for a rapid Brexit ..the Conservatives appeared to have stalled after the boost from Brexit Party voters. «
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: bennydorano on November 30, 2019, 08:50:53 AM
See something doing the Twitter rounds about BJ removing safety barriers on London Bridge because they were 'ugly'. Also the London Bridge terrorist was a known terrorist  released on licence last year. 2 open goals for Labour and the opposition parties, a real chance......
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Saffrongael on November 30, 2019, 08:59:03 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on November 30, 2019, 08:50:53 AM
See something doing the Twitter rounds about BJ removing safety barriers on London Bridge because they were 'ugly'. Also the London Bridge terrorist was a known terrorist  released on licence last year. 2 open goals for Labour and the opposition parties, a real chance......

How would a security barrier stop someone with a knife ?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 30, 2019, 10:49:06 AM
Unfortunately this terror attack probably only helps Boris. Corbyn doesn't come across as tough on crime. They'll attack him on anti war protests, IRA and Israel. Advantage Boris.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Denn Forever on November 30, 2019, 11:01:30 AM
Yes, I would be so inspired by someone who make use of a tragedy.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: bennydorano on November 30, 2019, 11:02:45 AM
Quote from: Saffrongael on November 30, 2019, 08:59:03 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on November 30, 2019, 08:50:53 AM
See something doing the Twitter rounds about BJ removing safety barriers on London Bridge because they were 'ugly'. Also the London Bridge terrorist was a known terrorist  released on licence last year. 2 open goals for Labour and the opposition parties, a real chance......

How would a security barrier stop someone with a knife ?
You're tough on crime or you're not, all about perception.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: bennydorano on November 30, 2019, 11:08:20 AM
Quote from: Denn Forever on November 30, 2019, 11:01:30 AM
Yes, I would be so inspired by someone who make use of a tragedy.
Politics is a dirty, dirty game and remember who you're dealing with here.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/25/pm-branded-a-disgrace-after-saying-best-way-to-honour-jo-cox-is-to-deliver-brexit

JRM and Grenfell as well.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Saffrongael on November 30, 2019, 11:13:59 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on November 30, 2019, 11:02:45 AM
Quote from: Saffrongael on November 30, 2019, 08:59:03 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on November 30, 2019, 08:50:53 AM
See something doing the Twitter rounds about BJ removing safety barriers on London Bridge because they were 'ugly'. Also the London Bridge terrorist was a known terrorist  released on licence last year. 2 open goals for Labour and the opposition parties, a real chance......

How would a security barrier stop someone with a knife ?
You're tough on crime or you're not, all about perception.

Well it wouldn't benefit Corbyn then
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Saffrongael on November 30, 2019, 12:15:45 PM
Have we had any photo ops with victims or at the scene yet from Johnson and Corbyn ?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 30, 2019, 04:10:50 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 30, 2019, 10:49:06 AM
Unfortunately this terror attack probably only helps Boris. Corbyn doesn't come across as tough on crime. They'll attack him on anti war protests, IRA and Israel. Advantage Boris.
Top 3 voter concerns last week were Brexit, NHS and environment
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 30, 2019, 05:43:36 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1200820849022001154
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: bennydorano on December 01, 2019, 07:54:57 AM
BJ article today - Give me a majority and I'll keep you safe.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Tony Baloney on December 01, 2019, 09:10:49 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on November 30, 2019, 11:02:45 AM
Quote from: Saffrongael on November 30, 2019, 08:59:03 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on November 30, 2019, 08:50:53 AM
See something doing the Twitter rounds about BJ removing safety barriers on London Bridge because they were 'ugly'. Also the London Bridge terrorist was a known terrorist  released on licence last year. 2 open goals for Labour and the opposition parties, a real chance......

How would a security barrier stop someone with a knife ?
You're tough on crime or you're not, all about perception.
The barriers are visible in practically every piece of footage of the stabbing!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RedHand88 on December 01, 2019, 09:54:30 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on December 01, 2019, 09:10:49 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on November 30, 2019, 11:02:45 AM
Quote from: Saffrongael on November 30, 2019, 08:59:03 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on November 30, 2019, 08:50:53 AM
See something doing the Twitter rounds about BJ removing safety barriers on London Bridge because they were 'ugly'. Also the London Bridge terrorist was a known terrorist  released on licence last year. 2 open goals for Labour and the opposition parties, a real chance......

How would a security barrier stop someone with a knife ?
You're tough on crime or you're not, all about perception.
The barriers are visible in practically every piece of footage of the stabbing!

Noticed them myself. Not that they do a getting to stop a man with a knife mind you.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 01, 2019, 02:42:15 PM
Quote from: five points on November 29, 2019, 04:54:04 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 29, 2019, 04:36:37 PM
If we start trying to out-Boris Boris or out-Trump Trump (maybe out-Donald the Donald would sound better) the world is bucked.

It is not inevitable that simplistic sloganeering and populism has to win. We don't have to engage in a race to the bottom. In the long term the arc always bends towards progress (to bastardise MLK's fine words)

The most successful sloganeering populist of the past quarter century was Labour's Tony Blair. The arc certainly didn't bend towards progress in his time nor in the decade following. Trump for all his faults hasn't at least as yet started a huge war like Blair did and all indications are that neither he nor Boris have any inclination in doing so.

Can't disagree that Blair was the most successful western politician in the era you specify. Putin has been fairly successful in that period - I wonder what his secret is.

Blair and the Blair machine loved a sound bite. That cannot be denied.

The arc of progress is measured over a longer period (the entire point of the maxim). There certainly was progress in the Blair era. Was there as much as there could or should have been? No. I think Corbyn would agree.

Blair's legacy will be forever overshadowed by his support for military intervention. No bigger critic of this than Corbyn. I don't think Blair started a war but was far to keen to support another country and leaders who was hell bent on finishing off a job his father started. A further point being Hague, Howard and Duncan-Smith were not exactly attractive alternatives on this front and so much worse on the wider social and economic agenda

I never accused BoJo of wanting to start a war and this doesn't really differentiate him from the alternative. Not sure why you are going down this rabbit hole
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 01, 2019, 10:39:28 PM
A car crash of an interview by BoJo this morning on Marr. News coverage of the interview has not gone further a short snippet to point out that the 2 parties are blaming each other for Uzman Khan being at large. Where is the coverage of Bojo's wider performance??
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: tyrone08 on December 02, 2019, 07:02:33 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 01, 2019, 10:39:28 PM
A car crash of an interview by BoJo this morning on Marr. News coverage of the interview has not gone further a short snippet to point out that the 2 parties are blaming each other for Uzman Khan being at large. Where is the coverage of Bojo's wider performance??
You will be waiting a while if you want the large broadcasters  to be critical of Boris. The BBC may as well be a tory TV station.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 02, 2019, 07:31:39 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 01, 2019, 10:39:28 PM
A car crash of an interview by BoJo this morning on Marr. News coverage of the interview has not gone further a short snippet to point out that the 2 parties are blaming each other for Uzman Khan being at large. Where is the coverage of Bojo's wider performance??
The coverage of the attack and on Johnson's interview couldn't avoid bringing up the effects of the years of austerity on the machinery of the State. The Tories are very weak on this and "get Brexit done " doesn't help. 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: WT4E on December 02, 2019, 09:51:08 AM
Anyone saw the videos doing the rounds of the dead terrorist coming back to life?

Im not really a big man for conspiracy but its a bit mad!!!!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Walter Cronc on December 02, 2019, 10:26:01 AM
Link man. Can't keep us hanging like that  :o
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: WT4E on December 02, 2019, 10:44:22 AM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Cm-92NJd7Ec


https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=181076739744187&id=100035255873546&sfnsn=scwspmo&d=n&vh=i

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 02, 2019, 02:30:39 PM
Quote from: WT4E on December 02, 2019, 10:44:22 AM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Cm-92NJd7Ec


https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=181076739744187&id=100035255873546&sfnsn=scwspmo&d=n&vh=i

I reserve judgement until I hear what Jim Corr thinks
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Saffrongael on December 04, 2019, 03:56:27 PM
Is this the first time ever the New Statesman has refused to back Labour in a GE ?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: WT4E on December 04, 2019, 10:32:27 PM
I see Finucane has moved to slight favourite since pissing on the street.

Heard Emma Little Pengalllllllly is Planning a shit in public tomorrow outside the Hatfield. Wahhh
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 05, 2019, 06:57:02 AM
https://www.ft.com/content/9413c96c-153a-11ea-9ee4-11f260415385

A Protestant who described himself as a political "neutralist", Mr Fleming added that some Protestants might vote for Mr Eastwood in the December 12 poll. "It wouldn't be so much to keep Elisha [McCallion] out. It would be more that Colum [Eastwood] might do something," he said. "Whether you like or don't like what he does, at least he'll do something. He'll go and he'll have the voice be heard."
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 05, 2019, 07:16:54 AM
Labour's most recent jump in the polls was driven by Remainers leaving the LibDems. 
This is worrying for the Tories who are depending on strong Lib Dem showings in seats to keep Labour out.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/04/hypocrisy-liberal-remainer-fanatics-flocking-corbyn-jaw-dropping/
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 05, 2019, 08:16:29 PM
Andrew Neil issues a challenge to Johnson

https://mobile.twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1202670854410297344
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on December 05, 2019, 09:14:29 PM
So the Jewish Labour Movement EHRC report published today, just to be clear these are all statemenst from 75 past and present Labour members, not the right wing neo liberal press as Magpie Seanie and Seafoid would have you believe -



@francesweetman

I've read the Jewish Labour Movement EHRC report, so you don't have to.  I'm going to list some of the most shocking points raised by the report below.

I will not be including details of Jeremy Corbyn's personal antisemitism, as this has already been done elsewhere. Thread.

One Jewish Labour member listed 22 examples of antisemitic abuse directed at him at CLP meetings.  These included the phrases "Hitler was right", "child killer" and "shut the f**k up Jew". (page 4)

One Jewish member shared a breakfast table at party conference with delegates who agreed that Jews were "subhuman" and should "be grateful we don't make them eat bacon..every day." (page 5)

One Jewish Labour member alleged an article arguing Jews were overrepresented in the capitalist class was defended on official Labour Party mailing lists. (page 7)

A Jewish sixth-former was forced to leave the Labour Party Forum on Facebook after members sifted through his account for links to Jewish organisations. (page 7)

A Jewish Labour member had made a comment online condemning holocaust denial.  The administrator of the Labour Party Forum group responded by calling him a "frothing Hasbara Troll." (page 8)

One Jewish member faced death threats after she was filmed being upset watching a debate about antisemitism at the Labour Party Conference. (page 8)

One Jewish was the subject of a 30-minute film made by an antisemitic member, who abused him as a "f**king Jew" and threatened to punch him in the face. (page 8)

The membership secretary in South Tottenham CLP allegedly objected to 25 applications from the Jewish community, and required home visits to their houses.  This was not a requirement for other members. (page 9)

Three branches in Stockton CLP refused to vote for a motion condemning the Pittsburgh attack in 2018.  The opponents felt the word "antisemitism" should be removed from the motion, despite it being the deadliest attack on the Jewish community in the history of the US. (page 14)


Margaret Hodge was subject to abuse after expressing her feelings on Labour antisemitism.  One example includes the phrase "your smear campaign...would make Goebbels proud." (page 17)

A staff member was appointed despite allegedly having a history of antisemitism.  The appointment was signed off personally by Katie Murphy and Jennie Formby. (page 19)

The Leader's office allegedly interfered directly in the disciplinary process. An advisor allegedly stated that "JC [is] interested in this one, while discussing action on a specific case. (page 22)

Staff in the complaints team were allegedly told that they were not to provide updates or responses in respect of antisemitism complaints. (page 24)

Staff allege that after the 2017 GE, the Leader's Office expected staff to disregard antisemitic incidents from a long time ago. (page 25)

In early 2019, the decision was taken that Laura Murray would head the complaints team.  This means the Leader's office could control the team directly. (page 26)

Pete Willsman and Claudia Webbe (both alleged to have a history of antisemitism, separately to this report) were said to defend alleged antisemites to the complaints team. (page 27)

One example of a person permitted to remain linked to the party despite suspension was the vice-chair of Woking Labour, who tweeted that Hitler was the "Zionist God". (page 28)

Some antisemitism cases that go word for word against the Labour Party rule book were subject to blanket exceptions.  No suspension issued. (page 32)

Alex Scott-Samuel, who has promoted Rothschild conspiracy theories on a David Icke show, chaired the meeting to discuss Luciana Berger's replacement.  He was never sanctioned. (page 42)

Elleanne Green, a close friend fo Jeremy Corbyn, shared a post blaming "scriptwriters in Tel Aviv" for the Christchurch massacre. The report implies her case is ongoing or she has never been sanctioned. (page 42)

Tom Watson had allegedly forwarded 50 complaints to Corbyn, and no action was taken.  Examples of complaints included tweets linking Hitler & the Rothschilds, and questioning whether Jewish MPs had "human blood". (page 43)

For those who have asked, I have also not included the sections on (Labour Councillor and pro-Corbyn activist) Thomas Gardiner's role in the antisemitism disciplinary process.  That is because Panorama covered this better than anyone.  It's worth a watch
















Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: balladmaker on December 05, 2019, 11:01:42 PM
Car crash interview for Arlene on The View at present.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: LCohen on December 05, 2019, 11:09:01 PM
Quote from: Kidder81 on December 05, 2019, 09:14:29 PM
So the Jewish Labour Movement EHRC report published today, just to be clear these are all statemenst from 75 past and present Labour members, not the right wing neo liberal press as Magpie Seanie and Seafoid would have you believe -



@francesweetman

I've read the Jewish Labour Movement EHRC report, so you don't have to.  I'm going to list some of the most shocking points raised by the report below.

I will not be including details of Jeremy Corbyn's personal antisemitism, as this has already been done elsewhere. Thread.

One Jewish Labour member listed 22 examples of antisemitic abuse directed at him at CLP meetings.  These included the phrases "Hitler was right", "child killer" and "shut the f**k up Jew". (page 4)

One Jewish member shared a breakfast table at party conference with delegates who agreed that Jews were "subhuman" and should "be grateful we don't make them eat bacon..every day." (page 5)

One Jewish Labour member alleged an article arguing Jews were overrepresented in the capitalist class was defended on official Labour Party mailing lists. (page 7)

A Jewish sixth-former was forced to leave the Labour Party Forum on Facebook after members sifted through his account for links to Jewish organisations. (page 7)

A Jewish Labour member had made a comment online condemning holocaust denial.  The administrator of the Labour Party Forum group responded by calling him a "frothing Hasbara Troll." (page 8)

One Jewish member faced death threats after she was filmed being upset watching a debate about antisemitism at the Labour Party Conference. (page 8)

One Jewish was the subject of a 30-minute film made by an antisemitic member, who abused him as a "f**king Jew" and threatened to punch him in the face. (page 8)

The membership secretary in South Tottenham CLP allegedly objected to 25 applications from the Jewish community, and required home visits to their houses.  This was not a requirement for other members. (page 9)

Three branches in Stockton CLP refused to vote for a motion condemning the Pittsburgh attack in 2018.  The opponents felt the word "antisemitism" should be removed from the motion, despite it being the deadliest attack on the Jewish community in the history of the US. (page 14)


Margaret Hodge was subject to abuse after expressing her feelings on Labour antisemitism.  One example includes the phrase "your smear campaign...would make Goebbels proud." (page 17)

A staff member was appointed despite allegedly having a history of antisemitism.  The appointment was signed off personally by Katie Murphy and Jennie Formby. (page 19)

The Leader's office allegedly interfered directly in the disciplinary process. An advisor allegedly stated that "JC [is] interested in this one, while discussing action on a specific case. (page 22)

Staff in the complaints team were allegedly told that they were not to provide updates or responses in respect of antisemitism complaints. (page 24)

Staff allege that after the 2017 GE, the Leader's Office expected staff to disregard antisemitic incidents from a long time ago. (page 25)

In early 2019, the decision was taken that Laura Murray would head the complaints team.  This means the Leader's office could control the team directly. (page 26)

Pete Willsman and Claudia Webbe (both alleged to have a history of antisemitism, separately to this report) were said to defend alleged antisemites to the complaints team. (page 27)

One example of a person permitted to remain linked to the party despite suspension was the vice-chair of Woking Labour, who tweeted that Hitler was the "Zionist God". (page 28)

Some antisemitism cases that go word for word against the Labour Party rule book were subject to blanket exceptions.  No suspension issued. (page 32)

Alex Scott-Samuel, who has promoted Rothschild conspiracy theories on a David Icke show, chaired the meeting to discuss Luciana Berger's replacement.  He was never sanctioned. (page 42)

Elleanne Green, a close friend fo Jeremy Corbyn, shared a post blaming "scriptwriters in Tel Aviv" for the Christchurch massacre. The report implies her case is ongoing or she has never been sanctioned. (page 42)

Tom Watson had allegedly forwarded 50 complaints to Corbyn, and no action was taken.  Examples of complaints included tweets linking Hitler & the Rothschilds, and questioning whether Jewish MPs had "human blood". (page 43)

For those who have asked, I have also not included the sections on (Labour Councillor and pro-Corbyn activist) Thomas Gardiner's role in the antisemitism disciplinary process.  That is because Panorama covered this better than anyone.  It's worth a watch

I guess we are going to have to wait and see the EHRC report and whatever evidence it has to support the allegations. I for one won't hold back in condemnation of antisemitism or a failure to deal with it when I see the evidence. I don't doubt that there will be evidence in some and possibly many instances
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on December 05, 2019, 11:55:52 PM
Missed the Arlene Foster interview on the BBC tonight but I'd bet she again tried to steer away from talking about Brexit and shifted the focus onto anything but Brexit which seems to have been the DUP strategy from the start.

This has been a toxic election campaign as the DUP have allowed themselves to be led by UDA and loyalist unelected representatives in a blatant attempt to take the heat off themselves in relation to Brexit and in order to buy some extra votes. No vision or strategic plan shown yet again by political unionism. I hope they suffer at the ballot box but I wouldn't bet on it.

Elsewhere, over the water Corbyn seems to be finally making some belated ground on the Tories as Johnson continues to get exposed for the charlatan that he is. Expect this gap to narrow over the last week of the campaign but Corbyn needs a high turnout particularly among the younger electorate to give himself a chance of entering into no. 10 in some form of coalition. Either way, I reckon that one of either Johnson or Corbyn will be toast in just over 1 weeks time.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 06, 2019, 07:43:07 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on December 05, 2019, 09:14:29 PM
So the Jewish Labour Movement EHRC report published today, just to be clear these are all statemenst from 75 past and present Labour members, not the right wing neo liberal press as Magpie Seanie and Seafoid would have you believe -



@francesweetman

I've read the Jewish Labour Movement EHRC report, so you don't have to.  I'm going to list some of the most shocking points raised by the report below.

I will not be including details of Jeremy Corbyn's personal antisemitism, as this has already been done elsewhere. Thread.

One Jewish Labour member listed 22 examples of antisemitic abuse directed at him at CLP meetings.  These included the phrases "Hitler was right", "child killer" and "shut the f**k up Jew". (page 4)

One Jewish member shared a breakfast table at party conference with delegates who agreed that Jews were "subhuman" and should "be grateful we don't make them eat bacon..every day." (page 5)

One Jewish Labour member alleged an article arguing Jews were overrepresented in the capitalist class was defended on official Labour Party mailing lists. (page 7)

A Jewish sixth-former was forced to leave the Labour Party Forum on Facebook after members sifted through his account for links to Jewish organisations. (page 7)

A Jewish Labour member had made a comment online condemning holocaust denial.  The administrator of the Labour Party Forum group responded by calling him a "frothing Hasbara Troll." (page 8)

One Jewish member faced death threats after she was filmed being upset watching a debate about antisemitism at the Labour Party Conference. (page 8)

One Jewish was the subject of a 30-minute film made by an antisemitic member, who abused him as a "f**king Jew" and threatened to punch him in the face. (page 8)

The membership secretary in South Tottenham CLP allegedly objected to 25 applications from the Jewish community, and required home visits to their houses.  This was not a requirement for other members. (page 9)

Three branches in Stockton CLP refused to vote for a motion condemning the Pittsburgh attack in 2018.  The opponents felt the word "antisemitism" should be removed from the motion, despite it being the deadliest attack on the Jewish community in the history of the US. (page 14)


Margaret Hodge was subject to abuse after expressing her feelings on Labour antisemitism.  One example includes the phrase "your smear campaign...would make Goebbels proud." (page 17)

A staff member was appointed despite allegedly having a history of antisemitism.  The appointment was signed off personally by Katie Murphy and Jennie Formby. (page 19)

The Leader's office allegedly interfered directly in the disciplinary process. An advisor allegedly stated that "JC [is] interested in this one, while discussing action on a specific case. (page 22)

Staff in the complaints team were allegedly told that they were not to provide updates or responses in respect of antisemitism complaints. (page 24)

Staff allege that after the 2017 GE, the Leader's Office expected staff to disregard antisemitic incidents from a long time ago. (page 25)

In early 2019, the decision was taken that Laura Murray would head the complaints team.  This means the Leader's office could control the team directly. (page 26)

Pete Willsman and Claudia Webbe (both alleged to have a history of antisemitism, separately to this report) were said to defend alleged antisemites to the complaints team. (page 27)

One example of a person permitted to remain linked to the party despite suspension was the vice-chair of Woking Labour, who tweeted that Hitler was the "Zionist God". (page 28)

Some antisemitism cases that go word for word against the Labour Party rule book were subject to blanket exceptions.  No suspension issued. (page 32)

Alex Scott-Samuel, who has promoted Rothschild conspiracy theories on a David Icke show, chaired the meeting to discuss Luciana Berger's replacement.  He was never sanctioned. (page 42)

Elleanne Green, a close friend fo Jeremy Corbyn, shared a post blaming "scriptwriters in Tel Aviv" for the Christchurch massacre. The report implies her case is ongoing or she has never been sanctioned. (page 42)

Tom Watson had allegedly forwarded 50 complaints to Corbyn, and no action was taken.  Examples of complaints included tweets linking Hitler & the Rothschilds, and questioning whether Jewish MPs had "human blood". (page 43)

For those who have asked, I have also not included the sections on (Labour Councillor and pro-Corbyn activist) Thomas Gardiner's role in the antisemitism disciplinary process.  That is because Panorama covered this better than anyone.  It's worth a watch

Very interesting timing
Has anything similar been done on antisemitic behaviour in the Conservative Party? If irrational hatred of Jews were such a problem I imagine it would have to be.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on December 06, 2019, 09:00:30 AM
Quote from: seafoid on December 06, 2019, 07:43:07 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on December 05, 2019, 09:14:29 PM
So the Jewish Labour Movement EHRC report published today, just to be clear these are all statemenst from 75 past and present Labour members, not the right wing neo liberal press as Magpie Seanie and Seafoid would have you believe -



@francesweetman

I've read the Jewish Labour Movement EHRC report, so you don't have to.  I'm going to list some of the most shocking points raised by the report below.

I will not be including details of Jeremy Corbyn's personal antisemitism, as this has already been done elsewhere. Thread.

One Jewish Labour member listed 22 examples of antisemitic abuse directed at him at CLP meetings.  These included the phrases "Hitler was right", "child killer" and "shut the f**k up Jew". (page 4)

One Jewish member shared a breakfast table at party conference with delegates who agreed that Jews were "subhuman" and should "be grateful we don't make them eat bacon..every day." (page 5)

One Jewish Labour member alleged an article arguing Jews were overrepresented in the capitalist class was defended on official Labour Party mailing lists. (page 7)

A Jewish sixth-former was forced to leave the Labour Party Forum on Facebook after members sifted through his account for links to Jewish organisations. (page 7)

A Jewish Labour member had made a comment online condemning holocaust denial.  The administrator of the Labour Party Forum group responded by calling him a "frothing Hasbara Troll." (page 8)

One Jewish member faced death threats after she was filmed being upset watching a debate about antisemitism at the Labour Party Conference. (page 8)

One Jewish was the subject of a 30-minute film made by an antisemitic member, who abused him as a "f**king Jew" and threatened to punch him in the face. (page 8)

The membership secretary in South Tottenham CLP allegedly objected to 25 applications from the Jewish community, and required home visits to their houses.  This was not a requirement for other members. (page 9)

Three branches in Stockton CLP refused to vote for a motion condemning the Pittsburgh attack in 2018.  The opponents felt the word "antisemitism" should be removed from the motion, despite it being the deadliest attack on the Jewish community in the history of the US. (page 14)


Margaret Hodge was subject to abuse after expressing her feelings on Labour antisemitism.  One example includes the phrase "your smear campaign...would make Goebbels proud." (page 17)

A staff member was appointed despite allegedly having a history of antisemitism.  The appointment was signed off personally by Katie Murphy and Jennie Formby. (page 19)

The Leader's office allegedly interfered directly in the disciplinary process. An advisor allegedly stated that "JC [is] interested in this one, while discussing action on a specific case. (page 22)

Staff in the complaints team were allegedly told that they were not to provide updates or responses in respect of antisemitism complaints. (page 24)

Staff allege that after the 2017 GE, the Leader's Office expected staff to disregard antisemitic incidents from a long time ago. (page 25)

In early 2019, the decision was taken that Laura Murray would head the complaints team.  This means the Leader's office could control the team directly. (page 26)

Pete Willsman and Claudia Webbe (both alleged to have a history of antisemitism, separately to this report) were said to defend alleged antisemites to the complaints team. (page 27)

One example of a person permitted to remain linked to the party despite suspension was the vice-chair of Woking Labour, who tweeted that Hitler was the "Zionist God". (page 28)

Some antisemitism cases that go word for word against the Labour Party rule book were subject to blanket exceptions.  No suspension issued. (page 32)

Alex Scott-Samuel, who has promoted Rothschild conspiracy theories on a David Icke show, chaired the meeting to discuss Luciana Berger's replacement.  He was never sanctioned. (page 42)

Elleanne Green, a close friend fo Jeremy Corbyn, shared a post blaming "scriptwriters in Tel Aviv" for the Christchurch massacre. The report implies her case is ongoing or she has never been sanctioned. (page 42)

Tom Watson had allegedly forwarded 50 complaints to Corbyn, and no action was taken.  Examples of complaints included tweets linking Hitler & the Rothschilds, and questioning whether Jewish MPs had "human blood". (page 43)

For those who have asked, I have also not included the sections on (Labour Councillor and pro-Corbyn activist) Thomas Gardiner's role in the antisemitism disciplinary process.  That is because Panorama covered this better than anyone.  It's worth a watch

Very interesting timing
Has anything similar been done on antisemitic behaviour in the Conservative Party? If irrational hatred of Jews were such a problem I imagine it would have to be.


Boris is looking into it, so move along now.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on December 06, 2019, 09:18:37 AM
Quote from: balladmaker on December 05, 2019, 11:01:42 PM
Car crash interview for Arlene on The View at present.

It really could and should have been much worse.

No mention of RHI or even the fact that the DUP agreed to a regulatory border in the Irish sea as a precursor to Boris going full hogg on Customs as well.

There was a wee touch on Ian Og's behaviour with Arlene letting it slip that the Westminster Parliamentary standards committee are looking into his other holiday to the Maldives as well.

Sam McBride really doesn't like Arlene with his barbed comment that she's performed much worse manys a time and I believe the feeling is mutual over his book.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 06, 2019, 10:17:20 AM
https://www.ft.com/content/d4868a48-169d-11ea-9ee4-11f260415385

This Tory party is high-risk. Mr Johnson has played fast and loose with democratic norms. His word is rarely his bond. His vow to "get Brexit done" offers a deceptive comfort to those craving an end to dither and delay. His withdrawal deal targets the hardest and most economically damaging Brexit: a "Canada-minus" trade deal, with commitments to regulatory alignment and security co-operation watered down. Creating a border in the Irish Sea risks weakening the cohesion of the UK. The trade negotiations with the EU will make the wrangling over the divorce deal look like a playground squabble. The idea a good deal for the UK can be done by December 2020 is fantastical.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 06, 2019, 10:34:35 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on December 05, 2019, 09:14:29 PM
So the Jewish Labour Movement EHRC report published today, just to be clear these are all statemenst from 75 past and present Labour members, not the right wing neo liberal press as Magpie Seanie and Seafoid would have you believe -



@francesweetman

I've read the Jewish Labour Movement EHRC report, so you don't have to.  I'm going to list some of the most shocking points raised by the report below.

I will not be including details of Jeremy Corbyn's personal antisemitism, as this has already been done elsewhere. Thread.

One Jewish Labour member listed 22 examples of antisemitic abuse directed at him at CLP meetings.  These included the phrases "Hitler was right", "child killer" and "shut the f**k up Jew". (page 4)

One Jewish member shared a breakfast table at party conference with delegates who agreed that Jews were "subhuman" and should "be grateful we don't make them eat bacon..every day." (page 5)

One Jewish Labour member alleged an article arguing Jews were overrepresented in the capitalist class was defended on official Labour Party mailing lists. (page 7)

A Jewish sixth-former was forced to leave the Labour Party Forum on Facebook after members sifted through his account for links to Jewish organisations. (page 7)

A Jewish Labour member had made a comment online condemning holocaust denial.  The administrator of the Labour Party Forum group responded by calling him a "frothing Hasbara Troll." (page 8)

One Jewish member faced death threats after she was filmed being upset watching a debate about antisemitism at the Labour Party Conference. (page 8)

One Jewish was the subject of a 30-minute film made by an antisemitic member, who abused him as a "f**king Jew" and threatened to punch him in the face. (page 8)

The membership secretary in South Tottenham CLP allegedly objected to 25 applications from the Jewish community, and required home visits to their houses.  This was not a requirement for other members. (page 9)

Three branches in Stockton CLP refused to vote for a motion condemning the Pittsburgh attack in 2018.  The opponents felt the word "antisemitism" should be removed from the motion, despite it being the deadliest attack on the Jewish community in the history of the US. (page 14)


Margaret Hodge was subject to abuse after expressing her feelings on Labour antisemitism.  One example includes the phrase "your smear campaign...would make Goebbels proud." (page 17)

A staff member was appointed despite allegedly having a history of antisemitism.  The appointment was signed off personally by Katie Murphy and Jennie Formby. (page 19)

The Leader's office allegedly interfered directly in the disciplinary process. An advisor allegedly stated that "JC [is] interested in this one, while discussing action on a specific case. (page 22)

Staff in the complaints team were allegedly told that they were not to provide updates or responses in respect of antisemitism complaints. (page 24)

Staff allege that after the 2017 GE, the Leader's Office expected staff to disregard antisemitic incidents from a long time ago. (page 25)

In early 2019, the decision was taken that Laura Murray would head the complaints team.  This means the Leader's office could control the team directly. (page 26)

Pete Willsman and Claudia Webbe (both alleged to have a history of antisemitism, separately to this report) were said to defend alleged antisemites to the complaints team. (page 27)

One example of a person permitted to remain linked to the party despite suspension was the vice-chair of Woking Labour, who tweeted that Hitler was the "Zionist God". (page 28)

Some antisemitism cases that go word for word against the Labour Party rule book were subject to blanket exceptions.  No suspension issued. (page 32)

Alex Scott-Samuel, who has promoted Rothschild conspiracy theories on a David Icke show, chaired the meeting to discuss Luciana Berger's replacement.  He was never sanctioned. (page 42)

Elleanne Green, a close friend fo Jeremy Corbyn, shared a post blaming "scriptwriters in Tel Aviv" for the Christchurch massacre. The report implies her case is ongoing or she has never been sanctioned. (page 42)

Tom Watson had allegedly forwarded 50 complaints to Corbyn, and no action was taken.  Examples of complaints included tweets linking Hitler & the Rothschilds, and questioning whether Jewish MPs had "human blood". (page 43)

For those who have asked, I have also not included the sections on (Labour Councillor and pro-Corbyn activist) Thomas Gardiner's role in the antisemitism disciplinary process.  That is because Panorama covered this better than anyone.  It's worth a watch
Daily Telegraph dossier
Pretty weak imo

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/05/anti-semitism-dossier-15-incidents-claim-jeremy-corbyn-has-engaged/

Anti-Semitism dossier: The 15 incidents which claim Jeremy Corbyn has 'engaged' in anti-Semitic behaviour


Anna Mikhailova, deputy political editor
5 DECEMBER 2019 • 9:30PM
Follow
Jeremy Corbyn has been blamed for a "culture that is anti-Semitic" in the Labour party in a damning analysis of the scale of the problem.

The submission by the Jewish Labour Movement has said "signalling by the Leader that anti-Semitic views are acceptable" is a category of anti-Semitic conduct within the party.

Since Mr Corbyn became leader, "'the Labour party is cast in his image", it says, adding that the party's attitude to anti-Semitism is "inevitably influenced by signals from its leader."

James Lisbon, a partner at law firm Mishcon de Reya, said the submission identifies "evidence where it says that Mr Corbyn hasn't acted correctly... given cover to anti-Semites or provided support for people generally.

"That is the evidence that we cite that he is responsible for a culture that is anti-Semitic. That's the way that the report sets it out."

The dossier lists the following examples where it claims Mr Corbyn has "associated with, sympathised with and engaged in anti-Semitism":


1. Defended Stephen Sizer, who posted anti-Semitic material
Mr Corbyn defended Stephen Sizer, who was condemned by Jewish leaders in 2015 for posting a link to an article accusing Israel of being behind 9/11. Mr Corbyn said he wrote to the  Church of England two years before the post to defend the vicar's right to discuss Middle East political issues.

To do with Zionism

2. Wrote foreword to book which argued banks and the press controlled by Jews
He wrote the foreword praising a book which argued that banks and the press were controlled by Jews.  Prior to his election as leader, Mr Corbyn praised the book's "brilliant" analysis of "the pressures that were hard at work pushing for a vast national effort in grabbing new outposts of empire on distant islands and shores".

Detail not forthcoming

3. Supported Paul Eisen, a Holocaust denier
He was heavily criticised over his links to Paul Eisen, a prominent Holocaust denier, including attending several events hosted by a group led by Mr Eisen, Deir Yassin Remembered. The Labour leader has admitted attending events involving Mr Eisen's charity, but said that was before Mr Eisen went public with his "vile" anti-Semitic views.

Give it the benefit of the doubt

4. Defended mural that contained anti-Semitic tropes
In 2012 Mr Corbyn defended an anti-Semitic mural in Tower Hamlets, east London, which depicted "hook-nosed bankers" playing Monopoly on a board held up by the working classes. The submission notes that it took the Labour leader four days to apologise after his link to the mural was exposed. Mr Corbyn eventually admitted the mural was "deeply disturbing and anti-Semitic" , adding that he had not looked at the image closely enough when he first saw it.

weak

5. Attended event that compared Israel to the Nazis
He attended an event on Holocaust Memorial Day in 2010 entitled "Aushwitz to Gaza: Never Again for Anyone", in which Israel was compared to the Nazis. Mr Corbyn apologised after reports emerged about the event and said: "Views were expressed at the meeting which I do not accept or condone. In the past, in pursuit of justice for the Palestinian people and peace in Israel/Palestine, I have on occasion appeared on platforms with people whose views I completely reject. I apologise for the concerns and anxiety that this has caused."

Weak

6. Wreath-laying controversy
In 2014, while on a trip to Tunisia, Mr Corbyn was pictured when a wreath was laid at the graves of two members of Black September, the organisation behind the 1972 massacre of 11 Israeli athletes. In 2018, following heavy criticism, Mr Corbyn said he was "present but not involved" in the wreath-laying.

This is about Zionism

7. Said Zionists don't understand irony
In 2013 Mr Corbyn said "Zionists...don't understand English irony despite having lived in the country for a long time". Mr Corbyn then said he had used the term Zionist "in the accurate political sense and not as a euphemism for Jewish people" but added: : "I am now more careful with how I might use the term 'Zionist' because a once self-identifying political term has been increasingly hijacked by antisemites as code for Jews." However the submission says: "It is submitted that the sentence simply does not make sense if he was referring to people who support the right of the Jews to have a state of Israel. He was describing a group of people who share a cultural characteristics (an alleged lack of irony), rather than a group who share a political viewpoint (Zionism)."

This is about Zionism

8. Failure to call out cases
The submission argues that, in the context of the above cases, the Labour leader's "failure to call out anti-Semitic abuse is interpreted both by perpetrators and victims as undermining his general statements that he opposes anti-Semitism". This week Mr Corbyn said: "Obviously I'm very sorry for what has happened" after being asked to apologise for anti-Semitic incidents in Labour in an interview with ITV's This Morning. He previously four times declined to apologise during an interview with Andrew Neil on the BBC.

WTF


9. Handling  of cases
The submission alleges that the "signals" sent by Mr Corbyn with his actions "filtered" down to the party staff who were dealing with anti-Semitism complaints. It claims they faced "pressure" form the leader's office to "take a lenient approach to anti-Semitism" which stemmed from a "recognition" the Labour leader was "guilty of similar behaviour".

Very weak

10. International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition
Mr Corbyn initially resisted adopting the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance's definition of anti-Semitism. The reluctance sparked a long-running row about how to tackle alleged anti-Semitism within Labour. When it adopted the full definition, the party issued a statement saying a statement saying it "ensures this will not in any way undermine freedom of expression on Israel or the rights of Palestinians". Margaret Hodge, the Labour MP, said it represented "two steps forward and one step back" and accused Labour of "diluting" the adoption of the IHRA definition with the "unnecessary qualification".

this is about Zionism 

11. Defended Chris Williamson
This is about Zionism

12. Supported Ken Livingstone
This is about Zionism

13. Labour party 'cast in Corbyn's image'
WTF

14. 'Denial' in the party
As the anti-Semitism crisis escalated within Labour, the party has responded by "denying the problem at the highest levels", the submission says.

WTF

15. 'Hostile response' to calling out anti-Semitism
The submission says people who have called out anti-Semitism have faced a "hostile response" from the Labour party.

WTF
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on December 06, 2019, 12:40:35 PM
Seafoid in unsurprising response shocker
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on December 06, 2019, 12:43:19 PM
Will the current health crisis and strikes make any difference to how people vote in NI? Will SF or the DUP take a hit?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 06, 2019, 12:55:27 PM
Quote from: Kidder81 on December 06, 2019, 12:40:35 PM
Seafoid in unsurprising response shocker

This is typical of the campaign

Daily Telegraph editorial

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2019/12/05/jeremy-corbyn-anti-semite/
"The JLM's submission makes it abundantly clear that there is no equivalence between anti-Semitism in Labour and supposed Islamophobia among the Tories. The first is pervasive and institutionalised. The latter allegation is based upon a distortion of an article Boris Johnson wrote for this newspaper and a limited number of issues that could be found in any mass membership organisation – and while they should be taken seriously, there is no evidence that they are not being taken seriously by the Conservative Party."


Zionism is effectively in favour of privatising the NHS
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on December 06, 2019, 02:00:00 PM
Any rational person would see that there is a clear link between attacks on the labour party in relation to perceived anti Semitism and the moment that Jeremy Corbyn took power. The reality is that the billionaire media moguls and the Tory establishment are frightened of the thought of Corbyn getting into 10 Downing Street and began to embark on a relentless smear campaign against him as soon as he became Labour leader. The same media were slightly complacent before the last election and Labour's performance surprised a few people so they have ramped it up another level ahead of this election. Yet Labour's vote continues to hold up in the polls with a small increase in the most recent results.

There are plenty of people who still rely on newspapers to spoon feed them their news and set the agenda for them but equally social media has negated their influence somewhat in recent years and but for the fact that a lot more less powerful people are now able to get their opinion across, Corbyn would have been destroyed long ago.     
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 06, 2019, 02:03:30 PM
Tommy Robinson has endorsed the Tories.
John Major refuses to do so.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: magpie seanie on December 06, 2019, 05:28:39 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on December 06, 2019, 02:00:00 PM
Any rational person would see that there is a clear link between attacks on the labour party in relation to perceived anti Semitism and the moment that Jeremy Corbyn took power. The reality is that the billionaire media moguls and the Tory establishment are frightened of the thought of Corbyn getting into 10 Downing Street and began to embark on a relentless smear campaign against him as soon as he became Labour leader. The same media were slightly complacent before the last election and Labour's performance surprised a few people so they have ramped it up another level ahead of this election. Yet Labour's vote continues to hold up in the polls with a small increase in the most recent results.

There are plenty of people who still rely on newspapers to spoon feed them their news and set the agenda for them but equally social media has negated their influence somewhat in recent years and but for the fact that a lot more less powerful people are now able to get their opinion across, Corbyn would have been destroyed long ago.   

Absolutely.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on December 06, 2019, 05:33:14 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on December 06, 2019, 05:28:39 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on December 06, 2019, 02:00:00 PM
Any rational person would see that there is a clear link between attacks on the labour party in relation to perceived anti Semitism and the moment that Jeremy Corbyn took power. The reality is that the billionaire media moguls and the Tory establishment are frightened of the thought of Corbyn getting into 10 Downing Street and began to embark on a relentless smear campaign against him as soon as he became Labour leader. The same media were slightly complacent before the last election and Labour's performance surprised a few people so they have ramped it up another level ahead of this election. Yet Labour's vote continues to hold up in the polls with a small increase in the most recent results.

There are plenty of people who still rely on newspapers to spoon feed them their news and set the agenda for them but equally social media has negated their influence somewhat in recent years and but for the fact that a lot more less powerful people are now able to get their opinion across, Corbyn would have been destroyed long ago.   

Absolutely.

So the attacks on Corbyn from within his own party, didn't almost an entire shadow cabinet refuse to serve under him, hasn't he made it almost impossible to be deposed due to changes in how the leadership contests are decided? Are they down to this right wing press conspiracy? Some of you clowns would need to take a look at what you are typing. By the way press readership has never been lower, and Seafoids beloved guardian has take their fair share of cuts at Corbyn so your arguments unsurprisingly don't stack up
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: magpie seanie on December 06, 2019, 05:48:21 PM
Quote from: Kidder81 on December 06, 2019, 05:33:14 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on December 06, 2019, 05:28:39 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on December 06, 2019, 02:00:00 PM
Any rational person would see that there is a clear link between attacks on the labour party in relation to perceived anti Semitism and the moment that Jeremy Corbyn took power. The reality is that the billionaire media moguls and the Tory establishment are frightened of the thought of Corbyn getting into 10 Downing Street and began to embark on a relentless smear campaign against him as soon as he became Labour leader. The same media were slightly complacent before the last election and Labour's performance surprised a few people so they have ramped it up another level ahead of this election. Yet Labour's vote continues to hold up in the polls with a small increase in the most recent results.

There are plenty of people who still rely on newspapers to spoon feed them their news and set the agenda for them but equally social media has negated their influence somewhat in recent years and but for the fact that a lot more less powerful people are now able to get their opinion across, Corbyn would have been destroyed long ago.   

Absolutely.

So the attacks on Corbyn from within his own party, didn't almost an entire shadow cabinet refuse to serve under him, hasn't he made it almost impossible to be deposed due to changes in how the leadership contests are decided? Are they down to this right wing press conspiracy? Some of you clowns would need to take a look at what you are typing. By the way press readership has never been lower, and Seafoids beloved guardian has take their fair share of cuts at Corbyn so your arguments unsurprisingly don't stack up

I'm afraid it's the 2+2 = 479 logic you're using that doesn't add up.

You know full well that the Blairites did everything they possibly could to get rid of Corbyn and joined in this scandalous smearing to suit their own ends. Anyone who believes for a second that Corbyn has a discriminatory cell in his being is just flat out completely wrong.

Oh - and no need for the name calling.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on December 06, 2019, 05:54:02 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on December 06, 2019, 05:48:21 PM
Quote from: Kidder81 on December 06, 2019, 05:33:14 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on December 06, 2019, 05:28:39 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on December 06, 2019, 02:00:00 PM
Any rational person would see that there is a clear link between attacks on the labour party in relation to perceived anti Semitism and the moment that Jeremy Corbyn took power. The reality is that the billionaire media moguls and the Tory establishment are frightened of the thought of Corbyn getting into 10 Downing Street and began to embark on a relentless smear campaign against him as soon as he became Labour leader. The same media were slightly complacent before the last election and Labour's performance surprised a few people so they have ramped it up another level ahead of this election. Yet Labour's vote continues to hold up in the polls with a small increase in the most recent results.

There are plenty of people who still rely on newspapers to spoon feed them their news and set the agenda for them but equally social media has negated their influence somewhat in recent years and but for the fact that a lot more less powerful people are now able to get their opinion across, Corbyn would have been destroyed long ago.   

Absolutely.

So the attacks on Corbyn from within his own party, didn't almost an entire shadow cabinet refuse to serve under him, hasn't he made it almost impossible to be deposed due to changes in how the leadership contests are decided? Are they down to this right wing press conspiracy? Some of you clowns would need to take a look at what you are typing. By the way press readership has never been lower, and Seafoids beloved guardian has take their fair share of cuts at Corbyn so your arguments unsurprisingly don't stack up

I'm afraid it's the 2+2 = 479 logic you're using that doesn't add up.

You know full well that the Blairites did everything they possibly could to get rid of Corbyn and joined in this scandalous smearing to suit their own ends. Anyone who believes for a second that Corbyn has a discriminatory cell in his being is just flat out completely wrong.

Oh - and no need for the name calling.

Yeah there is no evidence to the contrary about Corbyns love of all religions and faiths, dear god
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 06, 2019, 06:21:28 PM
Quote from: Kidder81 on December 06, 2019, 05:33:14 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on December 06, 2019, 05:28:39 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on December 06, 2019, 02:00:00 PM
Any rational person would see that there is a clear link between attacks on the labour party in relation to perceived anti Semitism and the moment that Jeremy Corbyn took power. The reality is that the billionaire media moguls and the Tory establishment are frightened of the thought of Corbyn getting into 10 Downing Street and began to embark on a relentless smear campaign against him as soon as he became Labour leader. The same media were slightly complacent before the last election and Labour's performance surprised a few people so they have ramped it up another level ahead of this election. Yet Labour's vote continues to hold up in the polls with a small increase in the most recent results.

There are plenty of people who still rely on newspapers to spoon feed them their news and set the agenda for them but equally social media has negated their influence somewhat in recent years and but for the fact that a lot more less powerful people are now able to get their opinion across, Corbyn would have been destroyed long ago.   

Absolutely.

So the attacks on Corbyn from within his own party, didn't almost an entire shadow cabinet refuse to serve under him, hasn't he made it almost impossible to be deposed due to changes in how the leadership contests are decided? Are they down to this right wing press conspiracy? Some of you clowns would need to take a look at what you are typing. By the way press readership has never been lower, and Seafoids beloved guardian has take their fair share of cuts at Corbyn so your arguments unsurprisingly don't stack up
The Guardian went neoliberal a few years ago.
The anti-Semitism campaign is political. The Telegraph is driving it .
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 06, 2019, 06:28:23 PM
The anti-Semitism campaign is a real "boy who cried wolf" situation to weaponise the concept to topple Corbyn.
If Labour were to win or even get a hung Parliament it would be a real kick in the nuts for Zionism.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: bennydorano on December 06, 2019, 06:38:20 PM
Historian's will look back on this Election as one of the dirtiest ever, the treatment of Corbyn should be ringing alarm bells for anybody who believes we live in a democracy - with a free press.

If BJ was exposed to the rigours of a genuine free press the Tories wouldn't be in their current poll position. Dominic Cummins is playing a blinder for them (sc**bag and all that he is) - but the strategy is working - aided by the fact that little England doesn't give a shit how big of a charlatan BJ is, they want Brexit done and they fear Corbyn in power. Still don't see anything other than a Tory majority 30+ and possibly much worse.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 06, 2019, 07:11:53 PM
Last time the polling companies overestimate Tory support by 5% and got caught on election days. Polls are supposed to influence.

The Tories need to win about 40 Labour seats in Lancashire and hold on to seats in Surrey. It's quite ambitious.
It will probably come down to turnout and the NHS.



Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on December 06, 2019, 08:11:03 PM
Seaf you need to take a break from this Brit Election.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on December 06, 2019, 08:21:53 PM
Thankfully we all get a break from it next Friday.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on December 06, 2019, 09:34:24 PM
Corbyn won that leaders debate hands down tonight. Johnson full of the usual bluster about getting Brexit done but he is really poor on detail whilst I thought Corbyn performed admirably. What difference it makes is anyone's guess but if you'd just landed down from Mars and were asked who performed like a statesman then Boris would not be the one.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Lar Naparka on December 06, 2019, 09:59:23 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 06, 2019, 07:11:53 PM
Last time the polling companies overestimate Tory support by 5% and got caught on election days. Polls are supposed to influence.

The Tories need to win about 40 Labour seats in Lancashire and hold on to seats in Surrey. It's quite ambitious.
It will probably come down to turnout and the NHS.
Are there 40 Labour seats in Lancashire?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: bennydorano on December 06, 2019, 10:08:02 PM
Corbyn is the well meaning schoolmaster type, he debated well, very Marquis of Queensbury rules type debating, whereas BJ was all bluster and pre-planned soundbites but he probably landed more blows - he definitely has more natural charm and that matters a lot. I watched it with a sinking feeling that Labour are utterly doomed tbh.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: armaghniac on December 06, 2019, 10:15:25 PM
Interesting increase in the electorate in all NI constituencies.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELIOW1FXsAECNtA?format=jpg)
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 06, 2019, 10:29:23 PM
Interesting debate. I'm a Labour supporter and a Corbyn fan. I think he edged the debate rather than won it hands down when judged at a surface level. Corbyn didn't land a fatal blow on the NHS and Johnson didn't land one on Brexit.

In terms of meaningful answers with substance rather than bluster then yes Corbyn really did win. It's disheartening how much traction Johnson's bluster is allowed to get. He told a couple of barefaced lies tonight and maybe it was time for Corbyn to call him out as a liar
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on December 06, 2019, 10:49:18 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 06, 2019, 10:29:23 PM
Interesting debate. I'm a Labour supporter and a Corbyn fan. I think he edged the debate rather than won it hands down when judged at a surface level. Corbyn didn't land a fatal blow on the NHS and Johnson didn't land one on Brexit.

In terms of meaningful answers with substance rather than bluster then yes Corbyn really did win. It's disheartening how much traction Johnson's bluster is allowed to get. He told a couple of barefaced lies tonight and maybe it was time for Corbyn to call him out as a liar

It's not really Corbyn's debating style to land blows and I think he deliberately tried to avoid confrontation in order to try and hammer home the point about inequality, homelessness,poverty and failing public services.

It beggars belief how Johnson blustered his way to the top and apart from soundbites he offered nothing of substance. He was only saved by the format which meant relatively short answers with little time for hard questioning on detail.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Saffrongael on December 06, 2019, 11:08:06 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on December 06, 2019, 10:49:18 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 06, 2019, 10:29:23 PM
Interesting debate. I'm a Labour supporter and a Corbyn fan. I think he edged the debate rather than won it hands down when judged at a surface level. Corbyn didn't land a fatal blow on the NHS and Johnson didn't land one on Brexit.

In terms of meaningful answers with substance rather than bluster then yes Corbyn really did win. It's disheartening how much traction Johnson's bluster is allowed to get. He told a couple of barefaced lies tonight and maybe it was time for Corbyn to call him out as a liar

It's not really Corbyn's debating style to land blows and I think he deliberately tried to avoid confrontation in order to try and hammer home the point about inequality, homelessness,poverty and failing public services.

It beggars belief how Johnson blustered his way to the top and apart from soundbites he offered nothing of substance. He was only saved by the format which meant relatively short answers with little time for hard questioning on detail.

Homelessness was at its highest under Labour in the early noughties
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on December 06, 2019, 11:53:40 PM
boris won that debate easily....the electorate that count in the key constituencies heard a clear message from boris and more utopian bluster from jerry.

everytime dear old jerry is on the plinth, I simply think Venezuela and looks what socialism achieved in that country.

what shocks me even more is the posters on this forum who are in denial and think a miracle will happen next Thursday....afraid not, brexit stage one will be done and dusted by January.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 07, 2019, 06:34:36 AM
Jo Maugham QC's Tweets

Jo Maugham QC
@JolyonMaugham

Johnson on:
✖homosexuals: "tank topped bum boys"; like "dogs"
✖Working class men: "drunk, criminal, feckless"
✖Africans: "picanninies"
✖Muslims: "letter boxes", "bank robbers"
✖female MPs: "hot totty"
✖single mums: "uppity and irresponsible"
✖poor: "chavs, the losers
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 07, 2019, 08:12:59 AM
Quote from: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on December 06, 2019, 11:53:40 PM
boris won that debate easily....the electorate that count in the key constituencies heard a clear message from boris and more utopian bluster from jerry.

everytime dear old jerry is on the plinth, I simply think Venezuela and looks what socialism achieved in that country.

what shocks me even more is the posters on this forum who are in denial and think a miracle will happen next Thursday....afraid not, brexit stage one will be done and dusted by January.

If the media and commentators do their work Johnson will get pulled apart for that performance. You can't say someone won a debate if they lie their way through the answers. This has to be exposed. At one stage he claimed that "Labour would raise all their tax from 150 billionaires ". Surely there cannot be a single sane person who actually believes Labour have said that. Even Boris cannot believe it but he doesn't flinch when saying it.

The 50k new nurses was repeated. He did start by differentiating between "new" and "more" but then reverted to the "new" mantra. He repeated the 40 new hospitals and when called out he differentiated between new and refurb and between actual and seed capital. You can't get treated in a hospital that only has seed capital. It needs built. That costs money. That cost is not in their manifesto and not in their budget. The Tories claim is that hospitals will be built in unspecified locations without taxes or borrowing going up or spending elsewhere coming down. And Labour are accused of Utopian dreams? Johnson said the work had started on the new hospitals and he was "proud" of the work. Show me where this work is??
The 20k new police officers was repeated. Where are they. I do get that increasing police numbers cannot be done at the click of a finger and these increases can be done over the life of the parliament but Johnson has claimed to have met some of these officers. They don't yet exist. How can he have met them?

Labour would apparently abolish MI5. Is that in their manifesto?

Labour would apparently spend £1.2 trillion a year. The £1.2t figure must have been rattling around in his skull and he fired it out with "sheep as a lamb" style logic. This is how he appears to operate. It's a Tory figure. It relates to borrowing over the life of a 5 year parliament not spending in a single year and was dreamed up by the Tories based upon 100% of the Labour 2017 manifesto plus 100% of motions passed for consideration at the Labour 2019 Party conference being implemented on day 1 of a Labour government without the same government generating any additional tax revenue. The nationalisation costs are pure fiction and massively exceed all market expectations. It's raving nonsense. It's not mathematically correct. It's not based upon Labour's actual manifesto and it takes all ambitions to achieve something over the life of a parliament as being delivered on day 1 including nationalisations.
Labour's actual borrowing plans are for investment. The nation gets something in return. The IFS predict similar borrowing by the Tories if they don't get their EU trade agreement by January 2021. That won't be borrowing for investment. The realisation of an ERG wet dream is all the nation gets in return for that particular bucket of debt.

Johnson claims Labour' business tax rates would be the highest in Europe. Plenty of league tables have Been published on this. I'm sure even as he uttered the line he knew this was a whopper of a lie. It just doesn't stop him though.

Corbyn did repeat the line that his manifesto is fully costed. This was true when it was published. It may or may not still be true. After it was costed the WASPI commitment was made. At £56b it's a pretty chunky commitment. It falls due over a number of years and is to be funded from reserves and only borrowing if reserves prove insufficient. The breakdown of this hasn't been published.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on December 07, 2019, 08:13:29 AM
Quote from: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on December 06, 2019, 11:53:40 PM
ot, brexit stage one will be done and dusted by January.

Nothing like a Turkey looking forward to Chrustmas ;D
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 07, 2019, 10:45:33 AM
https://ft.com/content/932e1582-1875-11ea-8d73-6303645ac406...

"Privately some Conservative MPs believe the party is heading towards a significant victory next week, although Mr Johnson's camp is haunted by memories of how Theresa May's lead crumbled in the last days of the 2017 campaign."
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on December 07, 2019, 11:07:48 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 07, 2019, 08:12:59 AM
Quote from: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on December 06, 2019, 11:53:40 PM
boris won that debate easily....the electorate that count in the key constituencies heard a clear message from boris and more utopian bluster from jerry.

everytime dear old jerry is on the plinth, I simply think Venezuela and looks what socialism achieved in that country.

what shocks me even more is the posters on this forum who are in denial and think a miracle will happen next Thursday....afraid not, brexit stage one will be done and dusted by January.

If the media and commentators do their work Johnson will get pulled apart for that performance. You can't say someone won a debate if they lie their way through the answers. This has to be exposed. At one stage he claimed that "Labour would raise all their tax from 150 billionaires ". Surely there cannot be a single sane person who actually believes Labour have said that. Even Boris cannot believe it but he doesn't flinch when saying it.

The 50k new nurses was repeated. He did start by differentiating between "new" and "more" but then reverted to the "new" mantra. He repeated the 40 new hospitals and when called out he differentiated between new and refurb and between actual and seed capital. You can't get treated in a hospital that only has seed capital. It needs built. That costs money. That cost is not in their manifesto and not in their budget. The Tories claim is that hospitals will be built in unspecified locations without taxes or borrowing going up or spending elsewhere coming down. And Labour are accused of Utopian dreams? Johnson said the work had started on the new hospitals and he was "proud" of the work. Show me where this work is??
The 20k new police officers was repeated. Where are they. I do get that increasing police numbers cannot be done at the click of a finger and these increases can be done over the life of the parliament but Johnson has claimed to have met some of these officers. They don't yet exist. How can he have met them?

Labour would apparently abolish MI5. Is that in their manifesto?

Labour would apparently spend £1.2 trillion a year. The £1.2t figure must have been rattling around in his skull and he fired it out with "sheep as a lamb" style logic. This is how he appears to operate. It's a Tory figure. It relates to borrowing over the life of a 5 year parliament not spending in a single year and was dreamed up by the Tories based upon 100% of the Labour 2017 manifesto plus 100% of motions passed for consideration at the Labour 2019 Party conference being implemented on day 1 of a Labour government without the same government generating any additional tax revenue. The nationalisation costs are pure fiction and massively exceed all market expectations. It's raving nonsense. It's not mathematically correct. It's not based upon Labour's actual manifesto and it takes all ambitions to achieve something over the life of a parliament as being delivered on day 1 including nationalisations.
Labour's actual borrowing plans are for investment. The nation gets something in return. The IFS predict similar borrowing by the Tories if they don't get their EU trade agreement by January 2021. That won't be borrowing for investment. The realisation of an ERG wet dream is all the nation gets in return for that particular bucket of debt.

Johnson claims Labour' business tax rates would be the highest in Europe. Plenty of league tables have Been published on this. I'm sure even as he uttered the line he knew this was a whopper of a lie. It just doesn't stop him though.

Corbyn did repeat the line that his manifesto is fully costed. This was true when it was published. It may or may not still be true. After it was costed the WASPI commitment was made. At £56b it's a pretty chunky commitment. It falls due over a number of years and is to be funded from reserves and only borrowing if reserves prove insufficient. The breakdown of this hasn't been published.

Johnson SHOULD get pulled apart but he won't, or certainly to knowhere near the extent that he should. The right wing UK media do not want to see a party in government who will affect their own pockets and strip away some of their power. Even if it is only subconsciously, the thought of Corbyn in power scares the beejaysus out of the print and broadcast media. Corbyn could easily shift towards the centre, and he may or may not stand a better chance of getting elected but then he would be compromising his own socialist principles. I thought that what came across again last night was that here is a decent genuine bloke with admirable principles in seeking social justice for all citizens most particularly for those without a voice in society. And he has a plan to do it. Those who already seen him as useless, a loser or a racist will not have changed their minds because to a large degree they feel threatened by him and how it might affect their pockets. The anti semite, racist, terrorist loving smears are simply a smokescreen for that same fear.

Boris Johnson is not held to anywhere near the same standards because many individuals privately support his policies and those of his party. He might have more personal charisma but he is campaigning to be prime minister not some sort of cabaret act. If I want to watch a clown act, I'll go to the circus.

The main question is whether or not the conservative party get a workable majority in next weeks election. I don't believe it is anywhere near a foregone conclusion and that if he does it will be a very small majority. The pollsters got it badly wrong the last time as Labour surged in the last week and they could get it wrong again.               
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 07, 2019, 01:07:14 PM
The Tories called the election to avoid
Parliamentary scrutiny of Johnson's deal.
The UK is really at a crossroads.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: balladmaker on December 07, 2019, 03:05:00 PM
It's unreal how anti-Corbyn the press are in general.  Now attention on the papers Labour released about Boris putting the NHS on the negotiation table with the US has been diverted to Russian interference. 

The UK is heading for self-destruction next Thursday when Boris wins a majority, Scottish independence and Irish Reunification are now the most sensible ways forward.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 07, 2019, 09:39:44 PM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/07/general-election-poll-tories-eight-point-lead/

"The Conservatives' lead has fallen back down to eight points over the last week, according to a poll which puts the party on course for a majority of 14.

On Saturday the results of a separate Savanta ComRes survey, for Remain United, emerged which pointed to just a six point lead for the Conservatives. However it was begun two days before the separate survey for this newspaper. "

Below 7 is understood to mean a hung Parliament
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Ambrose on December 07, 2019, 09:46:05 PM
The Tories will have a very comfortable majority this time next week. Corbyn will resign.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 07, 2019, 10:03:46 PM
Another way of looking at it

Tories on 41. Labour on 33. LD on 12 is key.  Remain is thus 45. 45> 41



To guarantee Remain , a last minute surge to Labour would be necessary. All down to tactical voting now.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on December 08, 2019, 12:19:26 PM
Lucid Talk poll in todays Sunday Times:

Nationalists: 2% want to leave EU & 74% want to remain
Unionists: 38% want to leave EU & 41% want to remain

6% of Unionists & 7% of nationalists are in favour of Boris Johnsons deal.

The big take from this is that Unionists are now majority in favour of remain. How will this translate into election votes. Logically you would think that this would translate into a backlash against the DUP but I'm not sure that this will actually happen at all.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on December 08, 2019, 12:26:30 PM
You say they are now... were they not always or what said they weren't?

The dup weren't yes but that was the party not the voters surely?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 08, 2019, 12:32:51 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on December 08, 2019, 12:19:26 PM
Lucid Talk poll in todays Sunday Times:

Nationalists: 2% want to leave EU & 74% want to remain
Unionists: 38% want to leave EU & 41% want to remain

6% of Unionists & 7% of nationalists are in favour of Boris Johnsons deal.

The big take from this is that Unionists are now majority in favour of remain. How will this translate into election votes. Logically you would think that this would translate into a backlash against the DUP but I'm not sure that this will actually happen at all.
You might see last minute switching if the Tories are doing well in the polls.
A Tory pro Brexit majority would really hurt NI. The DUP made a horse's arse of Brexit before getting shafted. Normally you would expect the alternatives to benefit.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on December 08, 2019, 01:13:34 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 08, 2019, 12:26:30 PM
You say they are now... were they not always or what said they weren't?

The dup weren't yes but that was the party not the voters surely?

The Brexit referendum itself.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on December 08, 2019, 04:01:10 PM
Ni said no to brexit though? Were there polls or something to say this?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on December 08, 2019, 04:11:11 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 08, 2019, 04:01:10 PM
Ni said no to brexit though? Were there polls or something to say this?

Doesn't really matter. DUP wanted 'out' & 'out' it will be. EU, Treaty of Rome, ergo massive Papish plot, from the outset. That's democracy N Ireland style for ya.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on December 08, 2019, 04:15:47 PM
Yeah they say out but i never thought unionism ion the whole said out. They just say what their backers say.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on December 09, 2019, 12:06:59 AM
https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/when-jews-are-just-fodder-for-the-tory-propaganda-machine/ (https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/when-jews-are-just-fodder-for-the-tory-propaganda-machine/)

Excellent piece by Antony Lerman (former founding director of the Institute for Jewish Policy Research, Associate Editor of the international academic journal on racism Patterns of Prejudice)
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: bennydorano on December 09, 2019, 07:46:43 AM
Latest Survation poll
Con 45%
Lab 31%
Lib 11 %
Brex 4%
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 09, 2019, 08:17:54 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 09, 2019, 07:46:43 AM
Latest Survation poll
Con 45%
Lab 31%
Lib 11 %
Brex 4%
If the perceived Tory lead is too big Lib Dem voters will switch to Labour to stop Brexit.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: maddog on December 09, 2019, 08:22:08 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 09, 2019, 07:46:43 AM
Latest Survation poll
Con 45%
Lab 31%
Lib 11 %
Brex 4%

If that is anywhere near the result this place has lost it's marbles. Maybe time to get out.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 09, 2019, 08:42:48 AM
Quote from: maddog on December 09, 2019, 08:22:08 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 09, 2019, 07:46:43 AM
Latest Survation poll
Con 45%
Lab 31%
Lib 11 %
Brex 4%

If that is anywhere near the result this place has lost it's marbles. Maybe time to get out.

https://www.ft.com/content/4cc8e70c-0c4f-11ea-b2d6-9bf4d1957a67

"Yet the recent record of the pollsters is not strong. Blindsided by the Conservative majority in 2015, some polling companies overcorrected in 2017, resulting in an underestimation of the Labour vote share by five points. Add to that the mixed bag of results on the 2016 EU referendum, and it means that the stakes are also high for the polling industry."
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: LeoMc on December 09, 2019, 09:16:52 AM
Quote from: seafoid on December 09, 2019, 08:17:54 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 09, 2019, 07:46:43 AM
Latest Survation poll
Con 45%
Lab 31%
Lib 11 %
Brex 4%
If the perceived Tory lead is too big Lib Dem voters will switch to Labour to stop Brexit.

Quote from: seafoid on December 07, 2019, 10:03:46 PM
Another way of looking at it

Tories on 41. Labour on 33. LD on 12 is key.  Remain is thus 45. 45> 41



To guarantee Remain , a last minute surge to Labour would be necessary. All down to tactical voting now.

Why swing to Labour, why not swing to the LD's where they have the best chance of unseating the Tories?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on December 09, 2019, 09:54:08 AM
How will swinging to labour stop brexit??
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Saffrongael on December 09, 2019, 09:59:13 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 09, 2019, 09:54:08 AM
How will swinging to labour stop brexit??

It won't
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on December 09, 2019, 10:39:29 AM
Quote from: Saffrongael on December 09, 2019, 09:59:13 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 09, 2019, 09:54:08 AM
How will swinging to labour stop brexit??

It won't

Exactly. Basically what is SF talking about.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: bennydorano on December 09, 2019, 10:51:56 AM
It's Miracle of Istanbul territory now, everything has to fall into place perfectly for Labour to merely achieve a hung parliament- the best way to achieve a 2nd Referendum. Tactical voting has to be perfect, the margins of errors in the polls have to fall their way, the Brexit party taking Labour votes in targeted seats has to be ineffective, turnout because of weather / the season has to be in their favour, the youth vote has to fall favourably over targeted constituencies. That's a lot of variables that have to go their way
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 09, 2019, 11:24:25 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on December 09, 2019, 09:16:52 AM
Quote from: seafoid on December 09, 2019, 08:17:54 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 09, 2019, 07:46:43 AM
Latest Survation poll
Con 45%
Lab 31%
Lib 11 %
Brex 4%
If the perceived Tory lead is too big Lib Dem voters will switch to Labour to stop Brexit.

Quote from: seafoid on December 07, 2019, 10:03:46 PM
Another way of looking at it

Tories on 41. Labour on 33. LD on 12 is key.  Remain is thus 45. 45> 41



To guarantee Remain , a last minute surge to Labour would be necessary. All down to tactical voting now.

Why swing to Labour, why not swing to the LD's where they have the best chance of unseating the Tories?
Labout have 10x the seats thje LDs have
Tactical voting encourages voters to support whichever candidate is closest to winning.
For non tactical I would expect people to move from LD to Labour
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on December 09, 2019, 11:34:50 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 09, 2019, 10:51:56 AM
It's Miracle of Istanbul territory now, everything has to fall into place perfectly for Labour to merely achieve a hung parliament- the best way to achieve a 2nd Referendum. Tactical voting has to be perfect, the margins of errors in the polls have to fall their way, the Brexit party taking Labour votes in targeted seats has to be ineffective, turnout because of weather / the season has to be in their favour, the youth vote has to fall favourably over targeted constituencies. That's a lot of variables that have to go their way

Yeah it's not going to happen is it :(
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on December 09, 2019, 12:34:10 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 09, 2019, 10:51:56 AM
It's Miracle of Istanbul territory now, everything has to fall into place perfectly for Labour to merely achieve a hung parliament- the best way to achieve a 2nd Referendum. Tactical voting has to be perfect, the margins of errors in the polls have to fall their way, the Brexit party taking Labour votes in targeted seats has to be ineffective, turnout because of weather / the season has to be in their favour, the youth vote has to fall favourably over targeted constituencies. That's a lot of variables that have to go their way

Based on that latest poll where the Tories have regained ground despite their campaign based on a basic slogan and no substance, it is depressing to think that a UK electorate would mandate a far right Tory party with a workable majority back into government. What does it tell you about modern society and the UK electorate though? The Tories fought a campaign on a basic message of 'getting Brexit done' and it looks as though it has worked. Barring a miracle it appears as though the Tories will get back in with a majority to do as they see fit. Given the make up of this next cabinet with carte blanche to do whatever they want, I wouldn't even rule out a no deal Brexit at this point.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Jeepers Creepers on December 09, 2019, 12:41:58 PM
There are alot of people who do not read from credible media sources (few left) to see all poitical lies exposed. They take exactly at face value what they read on the dominant Tory backed papers. So it doesn't matter how many twitter campaigns there are highlighting all lies and injustices...
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: magpie seanie on December 09, 2019, 12:55:02 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on December 09, 2019, 12:34:10 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 09, 2019, 10:51:56 AM
It's Miracle of Istanbul territory now, everything has to fall into place perfectly for Labour to merely achieve a hung parliament- the best way to achieve a 2nd Referendum. Tactical voting has to be perfect, the margins of errors in the polls have to fall their way, the Brexit party taking Labour votes in targeted seats has to be ineffective, turnout because of weather / the season has to be in their favour, the youth vote has to fall favourably over targeted constituencies. That's a lot of variables that have to go their way

Based on that latest poll where the Tories have regained ground despite their campaign based on a basic slogan and no substance, it is depressing to think that a UK electorate would mandate a far right Tory party with a workable majority back into government. What does it tell you about modern society and the UK electorate though? The Tories fought a campaign on a basic message of 'getting Brexit done' and it looks as though it has worked. Barring a miracle it appears as though the Tories will get back in with a majority to do as they see fit. Given the make up of this next cabinet with carte blanche to do whatever they want, I wouldn't even rule out a no deal Brexit at this point.

Why so down over one poll which seems to be an outlier in the recent trend. And pools have been plain wrong in most British campaigns recently. A Labour majority seems unlikely at present but as regards Remain - the biggest obstacle to that is the fact that more than 50% of people in Britain want to leave the EU. Which is a bit of a problem. Jeremy Corbyn's fault obviously....
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on December 09, 2019, 01:14:22 PM
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on December 09, 2019, 12:41:58 PM
There are alot of people who do not read from credible media sources (few left) to see all poitical lies exposed. They take exactly at face value what they read on the dominant Tory backed papers. So it doesn't matter how many twitter campaigns there are highlighting all lies and injustices...

The circulations of the major newspapers in Britain are falling like a stone.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Tony Baloney on December 09, 2019, 01:48:24 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on December 09, 2019, 12:55:02 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on December 09, 2019, 12:34:10 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 09, 2019, 10:51:56 AM
It's Miracle of Istanbul territory now, everything has to fall into place perfectly for Labour to merely achieve a hung parliament- the best way to achieve a 2nd Referendum. Tactical voting has to be perfect, the margins of errors in the polls have to fall their way, the Brexit party taking Labour votes in targeted seats has to be ineffective, turnout because of weather / the season has to be in their favour, the youth vote has to fall favourably over targeted constituencies. That's a lot of variables that have to go their way

Based on that latest poll where the Tories have regained ground despite their campaign based on a basic slogan and no substance, it is depressing to think that a UK electorate would mandate a far right Tory party with a workable majority back into government. What does it tell you about modern society and the UK electorate though? The Tories fought a campaign on a basic message of 'getting Brexit done' and it looks as though it has worked. Barring a miracle it appears as though the Tories will get back in with a majority to do as they see fit. Given the make up of this next cabinet with carte blanche to do whatever they want, I wouldn't even rule out a no deal Brexit at this point.

Why so down over one poll which seems to be an outlier in the recent trend. And pools have been plain wrong in most British campaigns recently. A Labour majority seems unlikely at present but as regards Remain - the biggest obstacle to that is the fact that in 2016 more than 50% of people in Britain wanted to leave the EU. Which is a bit of a problem. Jeremy Corbyn's fault obviously....
Who knows what the percentage is now? A more popular Labour leader would significantly close the gap on, if not overhaul, any Conservative lead in the polls. He's simply not a popular option amongst floating voters. BJ DEFINITELY isn't either so it's rock and a hard place territory for those voters.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on December 09, 2019, 01:49:49 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on December 09, 2019, 12:55:02 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on December 09, 2019, 12:34:10 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 09, 2019, 10:51:56 AM
It's Miracle of Istanbul territory now, everything has to fall into place perfectly for Labour to merely achieve a hung parliament- the best way to achieve a 2nd Referendum. Tactical voting has to be perfect, the margins of errors in the polls have to fall their way, the Brexit party taking Labour votes in targeted seats has to be ineffective, turnout because of weather / the season has to be in their favour, the youth vote has to fall favourably over targeted constituencies. That's a lot of variables that have to go their way

Based on that latest poll where the Tories have regained ground despite their campaign based on a basic slogan and no substance, it is depressing to think that a UK electorate would mandate a far right Tory party with a workable majority back into government. What does it tell you about modern society and the UK electorate though? The Tories fought a campaign on a basic message of 'getting Brexit done' and it looks as though it has worked. Barring a miracle it appears as though the Tories will get back in with a majority to do as they see fit. Given the make up of this next cabinet with carte blanche to do whatever they want, I wouldn't even rule out a no deal Brexit at this point.

Why so down over one poll which seems to be an outlier in the recent trend.
And pools have been plain wrong in most British campaigns recently. A Labour majority seems unlikely at present but as regards Remain - the biggest obstacle to that is the fact that more than 50% of people in Britain want to leave the EU. Which is a bit of a problem. Jeremy Corbyn's fault obviously....

It's the fact that it is days out from the election when Labour should have really gained ground by now. Instead they have lost ground if the poll is to be taken at face value.

Labour were never going to get a majority anyway, the best that they could hope for was a hung parliament with a coalition between themselves and SNP. That now appears unlikely though unless there is a dramatic turnaround in the last few days. All based on the preface that the polls are indeed accurate.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 09, 2019, 02:17:34 PM
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on December 09, 2019, 12:41:58 PM
There are alot of people who do not read from credible media sources (few left) to see all poitical lies exposed. They take exactly at face value what they read on the dominant Tory backed papers. So it doesn't matter how many twitter campaigns there are highlighting all lies and injustices...
Newspaper sales now are a lot lower than before.
Young people get their news from social media where the Tories are weaker
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: bennydorano on December 09, 2019, 02:22:23 PM
One if the major problems is that for every individual that really thinks about their options, votes tactically there are 10 people who will lap up for any old shite.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on December 09, 2019, 02:44:27 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 09, 2019, 02:22:23 PM
One if the major problems is that for every individual that really thinks about their options, votes tactically there are 10 people who will lap up for any old shite.

See these Greeks & their fancy ideas, eh? Unfortunately, they didn't leave us a mechanism for disenfranchising the intellectually enfeebled, when they laid down their principles of democracy. A big oversight.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Jeepers Creepers on December 09, 2019, 03:22:14 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 09, 2019, 02:17:34 PM
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on December 09, 2019, 12:41:58 PM
There are alot of people who do not read from credible media sources (few left) to see all poitical lies exposed. They take exactly at face value what they read on the dominant Tory backed papers. So it doesn't matter how many twitter campaigns there are highlighting all lies and injustices...
Newspaper sales now are a lot lower than before.
Young people get their news from social media where the Tories are weaker
My point being young people and social media will not get Labour into power. You dont have to buy a paper, the headlines on most of the red tops (with their anti-labour Bias) you see standing in line at the shop are enough to persude the average Joe who does not sit on twitter all day to vote for the Torys.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Walter Cronc on December 09, 2019, 03:27:37 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on December 09, 2019, 01:49:49 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on December 09, 2019, 12:55:02 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on December 09, 2019, 12:34:10 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 09, 2019, 10:51:56 AM
It's Miracle of Istanbul territory now, everything has to fall into place perfectly for Labour to merely achieve a hung parliament- the best way to achieve a 2nd Referendum. Tactical voting has to be perfect, the margins of errors in the polls have to fall their way, the Brexit party taking Labour votes in targeted seats has to be ineffective, turnout because of weather / the season has to be in their favour, the youth vote has to fall favourably over targeted constituencies. That's a lot of variables that have to go their way

Based on that latest poll where the Tories have regained ground despite their campaign based on a basic slogan and no substance, it is depressing to think that a UK electorate would mandate a far right Tory party with a workable majority back into government. What does it tell you about modern society and the UK electorate though? The Tories fought a campaign on a basic message of 'getting Brexit done' and it looks as though it has worked. Barring a miracle it appears as though the Tories will get back in with a majority to do as they see fit. Given the make up of this next cabinet with carte blanche to do whatever they want, I wouldn't even rule out a no deal Brexit at this point.

Why so down over one poll which seems to be an outlier in the recent trend.
And pools have been plain wrong in most British campaigns recently. A Labour majority seems unlikely at present but as regards Remain - the biggest obstacle to that is the fact that more than 50% of people in Britain want to leave the EU. Which is a bit of a problem. Jeremy Corbyn's fault obviously....

It's the fact that it is days out from the election when Labour should have really gained ground by now. Instead they have lost ground if the poll is to be taken at face value.

Labour were never going to get a majority anyway, the best that they could hope for was a hung parliament with a coalition between themselves and SNP. That now appears unlikely though unless there is a dramatic turnaround in the last few days. All based on the preface that the polls are indeed accurate.

It tells me a good half of the Brits are horrible racist f*cks. Its only a few centuries ago the savaged half the world so its in them somewhere!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: bennydorano on December 09, 2019, 04:46:27 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on December 09, 2019, 02:44:27 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 09, 2019, 02:22:23 PM
One if the major problems is that for every individual that really thinks about their options, votes tactically there are 10 people who will lap up for any old shite.

See these Greeks & their fancy ideas, eh? Unfortunately, they didn't leave us a mechanism for disenfranchising the intellectually enfeebled, when they laid down their principles of democracy. A big oversight.

Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.
HL Mencken
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on December 09, 2019, 04:52:37 PM
Quote from: Walter Cronc on December 09, 2019, 03:27:37 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on December 09, 2019, 01:49:49 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on December 09, 2019, 12:55:02 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on December 09, 2019, 12:34:10 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 09, 2019, 10:51:56 AM
It's Miracle of Istanbul territory now, everything has to fall into place perfectly for Labour to merely achieve a hung parliament- the best way to achieve a 2nd Referendum. Tactical voting has to be perfect, the margins of errors in the polls have to fall their way, the Brexit party taking Labour votes in targeted seats has to be ineffective, turnout because of weather / the season has to be in their favour, the youth vote has to fall favourably over targeted constituencies. That's a lot of variables that have to go their way

Based on that latest poll where the Tories have regained ground despite their campaign based on a basic slogan and no substance, it is depressing to think that a UK electorate would mandate a far right Tory party with a workable majority back into government. What does it tell you about modern society and the UK electorate though? The Tories fought a campaign on a basic message of 'getting Brexit done' and it looks as though it has worked. Barring a miracle it appears as though the Tories will get back in with a majority to do as they see fit. Given the make up of this next cabinet with carte blanche to do whatever they want, I wouldn't even rule out a no deal Brexit at this point.

Why so down over one poll which seems to be an outlier in the recent trend.
And pools have been plain wrong in most British campaigns recently. A Labour majority seems unlikely at present but as regards Remain - the biggest obstacle to that is the fact that more than 50% of people in Britain want to leave the EU. Which is a bit of a problem. Jeremy Corbyn's fault obviously....

It's the fact that it is days out from the election when Labour should have really gained ground by now. Instead they have lost ground if the poll is to be taken at face value.

Labour were never going to get a majority anyway, the best that they could hope for was a hung parliament with a coalition between themselves and SNP. That now appears unlikely though unless there is a dramatic turnaround in the last few days. All based on the preface that the polls are indeed accurate.

It tells me a good half of the Brits are horrible racist f*cks. Its only a few centuries ago the savaged half the world so its in them somewhere!

I think the Brexit referendum itself confirmed that. They appear to be about to vote into power though the most far right government since the Thatcher days and who knows what type of further cuts they will try and implement at the expense of public services. It is a potentially very dangerous government and I suspect that a lot of their promises will go out the window the minute that they are elected.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: easytiger95 on December 09, 2019, 05:00:46 PM
Cheer up lads - Bojo might just have had his Gordon Brown "awful woman" moment. Did you not see this today?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/09/refuses-to-look-at-picture-of-boy-forced-to-sleep-on-hospital-floor

I think he is cracking under the pressure - might not be the time to exploit it for a hung parliament result, but a narrow Tory win makes Brexit of the kind that Boris wants extremely hard to achieve. He needs a landslide and a parliament full of swivel eyed loons to insure him against the remains of the centrist fringe rebelling - I'd say the odds of that are receding.

If he comes home with a ten or 15 seat majority, he doesn't look like the Heineken candidate that he was puffed up to be - and there should be enough relatively sane MPs in there to block him from no deal at the end of next year.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 09, 2019, 05:04:33 PM
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on December 09, 2019, 03:22:14 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 09, 2019, 02:17:34 PM
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on December 09, 2019, 12:41:58 PM
There are alot of people who do not read from credible media sources (few left) to see all poitical lies exposed. They take exactly at face value what they read on the dominant Tory backed papers. So it doesn't matter how many twitter campaigns there are highlighting all lies and injustices...
Newspaper sales now are a lot lower than before.
Young people get their news from social media where the Tories are weaker
My point being young people and social media will not get Labour into power. You dont have to buy a paper, the headlines on most of the red tops (with their anti-labour Bias) you see standing in line at the shop are enough to persude the average Joe who does not sit on twitter all day to vote for the Torys.
The Tories have to win. The others don't.
Brexit hasn't won an election since 2016
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 09, 2019, 05:06:14 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on December 09, 2019, 01:48:24 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on December 09, 2019, 12:55:02 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on December 09, 2019, 12:34:10 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 09, 2019, 10:51:56 AM
It's Miracle of Istanbul territory now, everything has to fall into place perfectly for Labour to merely achieve a hung parliament- the best way to achieve a 2nd Referendum. Tactical voting has to be perfect, the margins of errors in the polls have to fall their way, the Brexit party taking Labour votes in targeted seats has to be ineffective, turnout because of weather / the season has to be in their favour, the youth vote has to fall favourably over targeted constituencies. That's a lot of variables that have to go their way

Based on that latest poll where the Tories have regained ground despite their campaign based on a basic slogan and no substance, it is depressing to think that a UK electorate would mandate a far right Tory party with a workable majority back into government. What does it tell you about modern society and the UK electorate though? The Tories fought a campaign on a basic message of 'getting Brexit done' and it looks as though it has worked. Barring a miracle it appears as though the Tories will get back in with a majority to do as they see fit. Given the make up of this next cabinet with carte blanche to do whatever they want, I wouldn't even rule out a no deal Brexit at this point.

Why so down over one poll which seems to be an outlier in the recent trend. And pools have been plain wrong in most British campaigns recently. A Labour majority seems unlikely at present but as regards Remain - the biggest obstacle to that is the fact that in 2016 more than 50% of people in Britain wanted to leave the EU. Which is a bit of a problem. Jeremy Corbyn's fault obviously....
Who knows what the percentage is now? A more popular Labour leader would significantly close the gap on, if not overhaul, any Conservative lead in the polls. He's simply not a popular option amongst floating voters. BJ DEFINITELY isn't either so it's rock and a hard place territory for those voters.
I think it's different since the Scottish ref after which Labour collapsed in Scotland.
Labout plus the SNP are currently 20 seats behind the Tories .
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Saffrongael on December 09, 2019, 05:08:21 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 09, 2019, 02:17:34 PM
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on December 09, 2019, 12:41:58 PM
There are alot of people who do not read from credible media sources (few left) to see all poitical lies exposed. They take exactly at face value what they read on the dominant Tory backed papers. So it doesn't matter how many twitter campaigns there are highlighting all lies and injustices...
Newspaper sales now are a lot lower than before.
Young people get their news from social media where the Tories are weaker

What happened the right wing media conspiracy where everyone is being fed the Daily Mail every day and people can't make their own minds up on issues ? You have done quite the pivot
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on December 09, 2019, 06:10:28 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on December 09, 2019, 05:00:46 PM
Cheer up lads - Bojo might just have had his Gordon Brown "awful woman" moment. Did you not see this today?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/09/refuses-to-look-at-picture-of-boy-forced-to-sleep-on-hospital-floor

I think he is cracking under the pressure - might not be the time to exploit it for a hung parliament result, but a narrow Tory win makes Brexit of the kind that Boris wants extremely hard to achieve. He needs a landslide and a parliament full of swivel eyed loons to insure him against the remains of the centrist fringe rebelling - I'd say the odds of that are receding.

If he comes home with a ten or 15 seat majority, he doesn't look like the Heineken candidate that he was puffed up to be - and there should be enough relatively sane MPs in there to block him from no deal at the end of next year.

If people need to see this incident to know what kind of an individual Boris Johnson is, then they have been hiding under a rock for the last few years. There will be a fuss made of it for a few hours and tomorrow it will be yesterdays news. Most of the right wing newspapers will probably not even cover the story. 

I think you are right regarding the size of the majority, I don't think it will be a landslide by any means but it would require the polling to be way out of sync for there to be anything other than a 15+ seat Tory majority.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: balladmaker on December 09, 2019, 06:28:29 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 09, 2019, 05:06:14 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on December 09, 2019, 01:48:24 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on December 09, 2019, 12:55:02 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on December 09, 2019, 12:34:10 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 09, 2019, 10:51:56 AM
It's Miracle of Istanbul territory now, everything has to fall into place perfectly for Labour to merely achieve a hung parliament- the best way to achieve a 2nd Referendum. Tactical voting has to be perfect, the margins of errors in the polls have to fall their way, the Brexit party taking Labour votes in targeted seats has to be ineffective, turnout because of weather / the season has to be in their favour, the youth vote has to fall favourably over targeted constituencies. That's a lot of variables that have to go their way

Based on that latest poll where the Tories have regained ground despite their campaign based on a basic slogan and no substance, it is depressing to think that a UK electorate would mandate a far right Tory party with a workable majority back into government. What does it tell you about modern society and the UK electorate though? The Tories fought a campaign on a basic message of 'getting Brexit done' and it looks as though it has worked. Barring a miracle it appears as though the Tories will get back in with a majority to do as they see fit. Given the make up of this next cabinet with carte blanche to do whatever they want, I wouldn't even rule out a no deal Brexit at this point.

Why so down over one poll which seems to be an outlier in the recent trend. And pools have been plain wrong in most British campaigns recently. A Labour majority seems unlikely at present but as regards Remain - the biggest obstacle to that is the fact that in 2016 more than 50% of people in Britain wanted to leave the EU. Which is a bit of a problem. Jeremy Corbyn's fault obviously....
Who knows what the percentage is now? A more popular Labour leader would significantly close the gap on, if not overhaul, any Conservative lead in the polls. He's simply not a popular option amongst floating voters. BJ DEFINITELY isn't either so it's rock and a hard place territory for those voters.
I think it's different since the Scottish ref after which Labour collapsed in Scotland.
Labout plus the SNP are currently 20 seats behind the Tories .


Nail on head .... and that's the exact reason why Scottish Independence will ensure a continuous Tory government in the UK for generations to come.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 09, 2019, 06:42:24 PM
Quote from: Saffrongael on December 09, 2019, 05:08:21 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 09, 2019, 02:17:34 PM
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on December 09, 2019, 12:41:58 PM
There are alot of people who do not read from credible media sources (few left) to see all poitical lies exposed. They take exactly at face value what they read on the dominant Tory backed papers. So it doesn't matter how many twitter campaigns there are highlighting all lies and injustices...
Newspaper sales now are a lot lower than before.
Young people get their news from social media where the Tories are weaker

What happened the right wing media conspiracy where everyone is being fed the Daily Mail every day and people can't make their own minds up on issues ? You have done quite the pivot
I read the Torygraph and get the Mail on Sunday and most of the political
stuff in both is bollocks. People are being lied to. There isn't going to be a boom
after Brexit because there is a liquidity trap. Labour aren't any more anti Semitic than the Tories. The Tories purged their moderates but are portrayed as middle of the road. If the Tories did win a majority the UK would suffer.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on December 09, 2019, 07:16:54 PM
Hopefully it will disintegrate as soon as possible.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 09, 2019, 07:42:07 PM
The polling was well off last time. It's not a science.

Johnson needs to win enough seats to avoid Parliamentary scrutiny. That is the point of the election.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on December 09, 2019, 10:36:52 PM
https://inews.co.uk/news/general-election-2019-angela-rayner-vote-leave-eu-second-referendum-question-time-1336884


Angela Rayner, touted as a future Labour leadership contender, is likely to vote Leave if there is a second Brexit referendum under Jeremy Corbyn, she said on Monday night.

The shadow Education Secretary told a BBC Question Time special she would support a new Brexit deal as long as it "protects the economy and jobs".

Ms Rayner is now the most senior member of the shadow Cabinet to suggest she will support Leave in any rerun of the 2016 vote, after other front-runners for the leadership have committed to back Remain under any circumstances.


She told an audience of young people on Question Time: "People think we're trying to stop Brexit, that's not what we're trying to do."

Asked how she would vote in a second referendum, Ms Rayner said: "If we get a deal that protects the economy and jobs, then I would vote for it."

The 39-year-old is seen as one of the favourites to become Labour leader if Mr Corbyn steps down after an election defeat.

Other contenders including Emily Thornberry, Keir Starmer and John McDonnell are all in favour of staying in the EU - as are a large majority of Labour members.

'Dog-whistle racism'

During Monday night's debate Ms Rayner also clashed angrily with Brexit Party chief Nigel Farage over his role in the first referendum, telling him: "You were trying to dog-whistle racism and you're a disgrace."

He replied: "You've got an anti-Semitism problem, you have lowered British politics." Mr Farage told the audience he planned to spoil his ballot in Thursday's election, and insisted he will never accept a seat in the House of Lords.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Franko on December 09, 2019, 11:46:37 PM
Quote from: gallsman on November 28, 2019, 07:17:01 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 27, 2019, 09:41:39 AM
Quote from: gallsman on November 27, 2019, 08:48:22 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 27, 2019, 07:11:25 AM
The next 2 weeks will probably be vicious. The assaults on Labour will intensify especially if the gap in the polls continues to narrow. There is a huge amount at stake in this election.

Grow up and get a bit of thicker skin. "Assaults" ffs.

The moaning and whining and bitching from all sides is flat out embarrassing.

Labour and Corbyn in particular are the subject of a systematic, baseless smear campaign from the rich and powerful. They're scared of having to pay a fair share of tax. They're scared of the underclasses getting access to affordable education which might give them a leg up in society. They want to maintain the status quo.


This is, frankly, complete and utter bollox. Baseless? Pull the other one.

This evening's events have blown a few holes in this one gallsman.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Franko on December 09, 2019, 11:50:09 PM
Quote from: Kidder81 on December 09, 2019, 10:36:52 PM
https://inews.co.uk/news/general-election-2019-angela-rayner-vote-leave-eu-second-referendum-question-time-1336884


Angela Rayner, touted as a future Labour leadership contender, is likely to vote Leave if there is a second Brexit referendum under Jeremy Corbyn, she said on Monday night.

The shadow Education Secretary told a BBC Question Time special she would support a new Brexit deal as long as it "protects the economy and jobs".

Ms Rayner is now the most senior member of the shadow Cabinet to suggest she will support Leave in any rerun of the 2016 vote, after other front-runners for the leadership have committed to back Remain under any circumstances.


She told an audience of young people on Question Time: "People think we're trying to stop Brexit, that's not what we're trying to do."

Asked how she would vote in a second referendum, Ms Rayner said: "If we get a deal that protects the economy and jobs, then I would vote for it."

The 39-year-old is seen as one of the favourites to become Labour leader if Mr Corbyn steps down after an election defeat.

Other contenders including Emily Thornberry, Keir Starmer and John McDonnell are all in favour of staying in the EU - as are a large majority of Labour members.

'Dog-whistle racism'

During Monday night's debate Ms Rayner also clashed angrily with Brexit Party chief Nigel Farage over his role in the first referendum, telling him: "You were trying to dog-whistle racism and you're a disgrace."

He replied: "You've got an anti-Semitism problem, you have lowered British politics." Mr Farage told the audience he planned to spoil his ballot in Thursday's election, and insisted he will never accept a seat in the House of Lords.

;D

I love the way you think you've made a great point here.

Critical thought = Nil.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 10, 2019, 07:56:59 AM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/09/jeremy-corbyn-could-win-without-gaining-seat-say-tories-warn/

Jeremy Corbyn 'could win without gaining a seat', as Tories warned he is closer to election success than people think
Gordon Rayner, political editor
9 DECEMBER 2019 • 9:30PM


Jeremy Corbyn is "much closer" to becoming prime minister than voters think because he could get into Downing Street without winning a single extra seat, a Tory party memo has warned.

The memo, dated Dec 7, says the chances of a Corbyn-led coalition have been "seriously underestimated", as gains of just 12 seats by the SNP, Liberal Democrats and other minor parties would be enough to remove Boris Johnson from No 10.

Internal Tory polling says a hung parliament would be the result of "as little as a 1 to 2 per cent movement in the current vote in a handful of seats".

Remain campaigners have calculated that just 40,000 strategically targeted votes spread across marginal constituencies would be enough to swing the result in Mr Corbyn's favour.

The Prime Minister spent Monday touring Leave-supporting Labour constituencies, but his day was dominated by a row over a picture of a boy being treated on the floor of a hospital and a suggestion by Mr Johnson that the BBC licence fee could be abolished.

Mr Johnson will on Tuesday stress that another hung parliament is a "clear and present" danger because of "sophisticated and well-financed attempts under way to prevent a Conservative majority through tactical voting".

On Monday, John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, encouraged Labour voters to consider a Lib Dem vote to "prevent a Tory government".

With just two more days of campaigning to go, the Tory memo – circulated among Conservative Campaign Headquarters staff at the weekend – reflects the fear gripping Tory campaigners over the threat of tactical voting.

A poll of polls on Monday showed the Tories 11 percentage points ahead of Labour and set for a 46-seat majority. However, another poll by ComRes for Remain United, which is campaigning for tactical voting, claims the Tory lead has shrunk to 7 per cent, which would give them just a two-seat majority.

Tory party chiefs are hugely concerned about the danger of complacency setting in among Remain-backing Conservative voters who will look at the polls and think they can "make a consequence-free statement" by voting for another party as a protest.


The memo, sent by Tory pollster Michael Brooks to campaign director Isaac Levido and seen by The Telegraph, says the "major risk" to a Johnson majority is "the belief that the Conservatives are indeed on course to win a comfortable majority". It says "voters' high expectations of a Conservative victory leave open the possibility they may use their vote to make a statement, wrongly believing that doing so will not change the outcome".

It suggests traditional Conservative voters who also voted Remain could vote Lib Dem in St Albans, Cheltenham, Richmond Park and Winchester.


Richmond Park, held by Zac Goldsmith by just 45 votes, is a key Lib Dem target, but Winchester is held by Steve Brine with a majority of 9,999, showing the extent to which the Tories believe Remain-voting seats are vulnerable.

The memo says such voters "fear" a Corbyn government but "do not believe he is a credible threat because they cannot see his path to victory".

Mr Brooks also says the collapse of the Lib Dem vote in the Midlands and North, in seats such as Southport, Derby North, Northampton South, Copeland and Calder Valley, has "overwhelmingly benefited" Labour, making Tory seats vulnerable to Labour and Labour-held Conservative target seats harder to take. Calder Valley, where the incumbent Tory has a 609 majority, could swing to Labour if fewer than a third of 2017's Lib Dem supporters vote tactically.


The memo also identifies a potential loss in Guildford, where Anne Milton, a former Conservative minister, is running as an independent and defending a 17,040 majority. Finally, it names five Leave-backing seats where the Brexit Party could ruin Conservative chances of making gains by splitting the Leave vote: Gedling; Lincoln; High Peak; North West Durham; and Dewsbury.

Mr Brooks warns: "The reality is that Jeremy Corbyn is much closer to becoming prime minister ... than many voters realise.

"Between them, [opposition] parties only need to win 12 more seats and Jeremy Corbyn will be prime minister. The reality is that Labour do not need to gain a single seat, they can simply rely on the SNP to make gains in Scotland or the Liberal Democrats to make gains in southern Conservative seats, and Jeremy Corbyn will be in No 10."


Between them, Labour, the SNP, the Lib Dems, Plaid Cymru and the Greens won 314 seats in 2017, with 326 needed for an overall majority.

Mr Brooks says talk of tactical voting is starting to have an effect in the North, where Leavers "believe they need to vote for the Brexit Party to secure their preferred outcome with Boris Johnson as prime minister", even though voting Tory would be enough to defeat Labour in certain seats.

On a visit to Staffordshire on Tuesday Mr Johnson will hammer home the document's message by saying: "Jeremy Corbyn and his Lib Dem, nationalist and Green allies need only 12 more seats than last time to make Jeremy Corbyn prime minister and continue the chaos of a hung parliament.

"We'll be stuck in this limbo, this first circle of hell, for the foreseeable future ... on the other hand, the Conservatives need only nine more seats for a majority. We could finally get Brexit done, end the uncertainty and move on.

"That is the choice and it could go either way – 12 seats in one direction and the nightmare will continue indefinitely; nine seats in the other direction and we can break free."

Prime Minister Boris Johnson boards his plane, following a visit to a Grimsby Fish Market
Prime Minister Boris Johnson boards his plane, following a visit to a Grimsby Fish Market CREDIT: PA
Mr McDonnell predicted "surprising results right across the country" and an even greater "shock" than in 2017, when Theresa May lost her majority despite starting with a huge poll lead.

Asked on ITV if he would encourage people to vote tactically in marginal seats, the shadow chancellor said: "I always urge people to vote for Labour, but people will make up their own minds about how their vote will have the maximum effect of preventing a Tory government under Boris Johnson."

A poll of polls compiled by Electoral Calculus puts the Conservatives on 43.5 per cent, nearly 11 per cent ahead of Labour who are on 32.7 per cent.


The Liberal Democrats have been squeezed by Labour and crashed to 12.5 per cent, down from a peak of 19 per cent when the campaign started five weeks ago.

The figures would translate into a 46-seat Conservative majority, with the Lib Dems on course for 13 MPs, only one more than in 2017, meaning they would lose seven of the 20 seats they had at the end of the last parliament following defections.

Nigel Farage's Brexit Party has also been squeezed by Mr Johnson and are down to just 2.9 per cent with no seats predicted.

Martin Baxter, founder of Electoral Calculus, said the Conservative vote had "stabilised and consolidated" but warned: "There are still two well known factors of polling. One is polling error, and the second is tactical voting, both of which could take us back into hung parliament territory." 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: DuffleKing on December 10, 2019, 08:42:45 AM

Scaremongering propaganda much?

Memo 2: Foreigners are coming for your jobs
Memo 3: If we don't "get Brexit done" Brussels will invade
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 10, 2019, 08:57:28 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on December 09, 2019, 01:48:24 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on December 09, 2019, 12:55:02 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on December 09, 2019, 12:34:10 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 09, 2019, 10:51:56 AM
It's Miracle of Istanbul territory now, everything has to fall into place perfectly for Labour to merely achieve a hung parliament- the best way to achieve a 2nd Referendum. Tactical voting has to be perfect, the margins of errors in the polls have to fall their way, the Brexit party taking Labour votes in targeted seats has to be ineffective, turnout because of weather / the season has to be in their favour, the youth vote has to fall favourably over targeted constituencies. That's a lot of variables that have to go their way

Based on that latest poll where the Tories have regained ground despite their campaign based on a basic slogan and no substance, it is depressing to think that a UK electorate would mandate a far right Tory party with a workable majority back into government. What does it tell you about modern society and the UK electorate though? The Tories fought a campaign on a basic message of 'getting Brexit done' and it looks as though it has worked. Barring a miracle it appears as though the Tories will get back in with a majority to do as they see fit. Given the make up of this next cabinet with carte blanche to do whatever they want, I wouldn't even rule out a no deal Brexit at this point.

Why so down over one poll which seems to be an outlier in the recent trend. And pools have been plain wrong in most British campaigns recently. A Labour majority seems unlikely at present but as regards Remain - the biggest obstacle to that is the fact that in 2016 more than 50% of people in Britain wanted to leave the EU. Which is a bit of a problem. Jeremy Corbyn's fault obviously....
Who knows what the percentage is now? A more popular Labour leader would significantly close the gap on, if not overhaul, any Conservative lead in the polls. He's simply not a popular option amongst floating voters. BJ DEFINITELY isn't either so it's rock and a hard place territory for those voters.

What stance on  Brexit what this "more popular" Labour leader take? And also who is this individual?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 10, 2019, 09:00:44 AM
Quote from: easytiger95 on December 09, 2019, 05:00:46 PM
Cheer up lads - Bojo might just have had his Gordon Brown "awful woman" moment. Did you not see this today?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/09/refuses-to-look-at-picture-of-boy-forced-to-sleep-on-hospital-floor

I think he is cracking under the pressure - might not be the time to exploit it for a hung parliament result, but a narrow Tory win makes Brexit of the kind that Boris wants extremely hard to achieve. He needs a landslide and a parliament full of swivel eyed loons to insure him against the remains of the centrist fringe rebelling - I'd say the odds of that are receding.

If he comes home with a ten or 15 seat majority, he doesn't look like the Heineken candidate that he was puffed up to be - and there should be enough relatively sane MPs in there to block him from no deal at the end of next year.

He doesn't need a landslide. A majority of 1 will suffice as long ruthless discipline is maintained until the inevitable bi-election
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 10, 2019, 09:16:25 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on December 09, 2019, 10:36:52 PM
https://inews.co.uk/news/general-election-2019-angela-rayner-vote-leave-eu-second-referendum-question-time-1336884


Angela Rayner, touted as a future Labour leadership contender, is likely to vote Leave if there is a second Brexit referendum under Jeremy Corbyn, she said on Monday night.

The shadow Education Secretary told a BBC Question Time special she would support a new Brexit deal as long as it "protects the economy and jobs".

Ms Rayner is now the most senior member of the shadow Cabinet to suggest she will support Leave in any rerun of the 2016 vote, after other front-runners for the leadership have committed to back Remain under any circumstances.


She told an audience of young people on Question Time: "People think we're trying to stop Brexit, that's not what we're trying to do."

Asked how she would vote in a second referendum, Ms Rayner said: "If we get a deal that protects the economy and jobs, then I would vote for it."

The 39-year-old is seen as one of the favourites to become Labour leader if Mr Corbyn steps down after an election defeat.

Other contenders including Emily Thornberry, Keir Starmer and John McDonnell are all in favour of staying in the EU - as are a large majority of Labour members.

'Dog-whistle racism'

During Monday night's debate Ms Rayner also clashed angrily with Brexit Party chief Nigel Farage over his role in the first referendum, telling him: "You were trying to dog-whistle racism and you're a disgrace."

He replied: "You've got an anti-Semitism problem, you have lowered British politics." Mr Farage told the audience he planned to spoil his ballot in Thursday's election, and insisted he will never accept a seat in the House of Lords.

I think Raynor looks like the candidate that would lead any Leave campaign in a second referendum between Remain and a Labour negotiated Leave deal.

You have to remember that any second referendum would be very different than the first. It would be after the terms of the deal was agreed. You won't be able to promise the earth, the moon and the stars on the side of a bus and a different set of stars to another audience. The Labour Deal is likely to involve much more access to the EU market. To do that there will be free movement of people (no nasty breaking point poster), less freedom to negotiate deals with other countries/blocs (no silly promises of sunlit uplands) and greater alignment (nipping in the bud the inevitable drift to reduced worker, consumer and environmental protections). Raynor could lead a grown up campaign without becoming a hate figure on the Remain side. Raynor also has the ability to relate to the northern brexiteer and hopefully talk them back to a more sensible form of Brexit. Sensible is a relative term

Labour have been pushed on who would lead that campaign
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on December 10, 2019, 10:16:55 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on December 09, 2019, 06:10:28 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on December 09, 2019, 05:00:46 PM
Cheer up lads - Bojo might just have had his Gordon Brown "awful woman" moment. Did you not see this today?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/09/refuses-to-look-at-picture-of-boy-forced-to-sleep-on-hospital-floor

I think he is cracking under the pressure - might not be the time to exploit it for a hung parliament result, but a narrow Tory win makes Brexit of the kind that Boris wants extremely hard to achieve. He needs a landslide and a parliament full of swivel eyed loons to insure him against the remains of the centrist fringe rebelling - I'd say the odds of that are receding.

If he comes home with a ten or 15 seat majority, he doesn't look like the Heineken candidate that he was puffed up to be - and there should be enough relatively sane MPs in there to block him from no deal at the end of next year.

If people need to see this incident to know what kind of an individual Boris Johnson is, then they have been hiding under a rock for the last few years. There will be a fuss made of it for a few hours and tomorrow it will be yesterdays news. Most of the right wing newspapers will probably not even cover the story. 

I think you are right regarding the size of the majority, I don't think it will be a landslide by any means but it would require the polling to be way out of sync for there to be anything other than a 15+ seat Tory majority.

I'ts really bad when even Laura Knuessberg is pointing out his total lack of empathy.

But yes, the right wing media moved quickly on to TV licenses and some alleged assault on one of Matt Hancocks advisers in Leeds which was nothing of the sort.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on December 10, 2019, 10:44:11 AM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on December 10, 2019, 01:23:53 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on December 09, 2019, 10:36:52 PMHe replied: "You've got an anti-Semitism problem, you have lowered British politics." Mr Farage told the audience he planned to spoil his ballot in Thursday's election, and insisted he will never accept a seat in the House of Lords.

Considering past comments (https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/nigel-farage-condemned-over-jewish-lobby-comment-1.447010) Farage has made which have touched on anti-Semitic tropes (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/06/nigel-farage-under-fire-alleged-antisemitic-tropes-far-right-us-talkshow-alex-jones), not to mention whom he's been willing to associate with (https://www.timesofisrael.com/how-to-silence-ukips-nigel-farage/) in the European Parliament (as well as some other indirect associations), the pot here is blacker (https://antisemitism.uk/politics/brexit/nigel-farage/) than the kettle. And as for accusing others of having "...lowered British politics."  ::)

FFS "Globalist" isn't an anti-semitic trope. John Walsh's new biography of Peter Sutherland is titled "The Globalist". Because that's what he was.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Walter Cronc on December 10, 2019, 10:47:02 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on December 10, 2019, 10:16:55 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on December 09, 2019, 06:10:28 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on December 09, 2019, 05:00:46 PM
Cheer up lads - Bojo might just have had his Gordon Brown "awful woman" moment. Did you not see this today?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/09/refuses-to-look-at-picture-of-boy-forced-to-sleep-on-hospital-floor

I think he is cracking under the pressure - might not be the time to exploit it for a hung parliament result, but a narrow Tory win makes Brexit of the kind that Boris wants extremely hard to achieve. He needs a landslide and a parliament full of swivel eyed loons to insure him against the remains of the centrist fringe rebelling - I'd say the odds of that are receding.

If he comes home with a ten or 15 seat majority, he doesn't look like the Heineken candidate that he was puffed up to be - and there should be enough relatively sane MPs in there to block him from no deal at the end of next year.

If people need to see this incident to know what kind of an individual Boris Johnson is, then they have been hiding under a rock for the last few years. There will be a fuss made of it for a few hours and tomorrow it will be yesterdays news. Most of the right wing newspapers will probably not even cover the story. 

I think you are right regarding the size of the majority, I don't think it will be a landslide by any means but it would require the polling to be way out of sync for there to be anything other than a 15+ seat Tory majority.

I'ts really bad when even Laura Knuessberg is pointing out his total lack of empathy.

But yes, the right wing media moved quickly on to TV licenses and some alleged assault on one of Matt Hancocks advisers in Leeds which was nothing of the sort.

The woman is vile. Emily Maitlis another
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: BennyHarp on December 10, 2019, 11:00:39 AM
Quote from: Walter Cronc on December 10, 2019, 10:47:02 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on December 10, 2019, 10:16:55 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on December 09, 2019, 06:10:28 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on December 09, 2019, 05:00:46 PM
Cheer up lads - Bojo might just have had his Gordon Brown "awful woman" moment. Did you not see this today?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/09/refuses-to-look-at-picture-of-boy-forced-to-sleep-on-hospital-floor

I think he is cracking under the pressure - might not be the time to exploit it for a hung parliament result, but a narrow Tory win makes Brexit of the kind that Boris wants extremely hard to achieve. He needs a landslide and a parliament full of swivel eyed loons to insure him against the remains of the centrist fringe rebelling - I'd say the odds of that are receding.

If he comes home with a ten or 15 seat majority, he doesn't look like the Heineken candidate that he was puffed up to be - and there should be enough relatively sane MPs in there to block him from no deal at the end of next year.

If people need to see this incident to know what kind of an individual Boris Johnson is, then they have been hiding under a rock for the last few years. There will be a fuss made of it for a few hours and tomorrow it will be yesterdays news. Most of the right wing newspapers will probably not even cover the story. 

I think you are right regarding the size of the majority, I don't think it will be a landslide by any means but it would require the polling to be way out of sync for there to be anything other than a 15+ seat Tory majority.

I'ts really bad when even Laura Knuessberg is pointing out his total lack of empathy.

But yes, the right wing media moved quickly on to TV licenses and some alleged assault on one of Matt Hancocks advisers in Leeds which was nothing of the sort.

The woman is vile. Emily Maitlis another

Kuenssberg has been retweeting and giving credibility to Tory smear throughout this campaign. She has continually, without filter passed on Tory propaganda to the mainstream. Last nights reporting of the "punch" to deflect from the story about the 4 year old boy was a prime example. Exceptionally poor journalism.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Maroon Manc on December 10, 2019, 11:15:59 AM
My mates wife is a private secretary/assistant for a Labour MP, sounds like there's huge discontent amongst a lot of Labour Mp's with Corbyn's manifesto but for obvious reasons we won't hear too much about it until the coming weeks.

A huge missed opportunity appears to be the trail of thought.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Walter Cronc on December 10, 2019, 11:20:23 AM
Jonathan Ashworth caught in a sting. What a numpty!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/dec/10/general-election-swinson-says-johnsons-rhetoric-puts-eu-citizens-at-risk-of-hate-crimes-live
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on December 10, 2019, 11:21:54 AM
It is without doubt a huge missed opportunity IMO.

A complete charlatan who would be better of in prison is going to still be running the place. He has less care for people than I would say anyone ever in power.

I am assuming he'll get in but I would be shocked if he doesn't.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Walter Cronc on December 10, 2019, 11:32:03 AM
Its not beyond the realms of possibilities that Johnson could lose Uxbridge. He's only ahead by 5k in 2017, closing from 10k the previous election. If hes not an MP can he not be Prime Minister?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: LooseCannon on December 10, 2019, 12:35:41 PM
I see that there have been attempts to sabotage Eastwood in Foyle. Shameful stuff altogether.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 10, 2019, 01:10:49 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on December 10, 2019, 10:16:55 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on December 09, 2019, 06:10:28 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on December 09, 2019, 05:00:46 PM
Cheer up lads - Bojo might just have had his Gordon Brown "awful woman" moment. Did you not see this today?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/09/refuses-to-look-at-picture-of-boy-forced-to-sleep-on-hospital-floor

I think he is cracking under the pressure - might not be the time to exploit it for a hung parliament result, but a narrow Tory win makes Brexit of the kind that Boris wants extremely hard to achieve. He needs a landslide and a parliament full of swivel eyed loons to insure him against the remains of the centrist fringe rebelling - I'd say the odds of that are receding.

If he comes home with a ten or 15 seat majority, he doesn't look like the Heineken candidate that he was puffed up to be - and there should be enough relatively sane MPs in there to block him from no deal at the end of next year.

If people need to see this incident to know what kind of an individual Boris Johnson is, then they have been hiding under a rock for the last few years. There will be a fuss made of it for a few hours and tomorrow it will be yesterdays news. Most of the right wing newspapers will probably not even cover the story. 

I think you are right regarding the size of the majority, I don't think it will be a landslide by any means but it would require the polling to be way out of sync for there to be anything other than a 15+ seat Tory majority.

I'ts really bad when even Laura Knuessberg is pointing out his total lack of empathy.

But yes, the right wing media moved quickly on to TV licenses and some alleged assault on one of Matt Hancocks advisers in Leeds which was nothing of the sort.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Ms_Nichola/status/1204164443866828802
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on December 10, 2019, 01:17:30 PM
Quote from: Walter Cronc on December 10, 2019, 11:32:03 AM
Its not beyond the realms of possibilities that Johnson could lose Uxbridge. He's only ahead by 5k in 2017, closing from 10k the previous election. If hes not an MP can he not be Prime Minister?

It is though.

Ahead by 5k in 2017 with another 1,600 votes going to UKIP.

Tories have polled in or around 50% in each of the past 3 elections there.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on December 10, 2019, 02:40:13 PM
Good to see people are managing to restrain themselves when it comes to rhetoric come election time.

Kuenssberg and Maitlis are "vile" apparently.

Morons in 2019 appear to have an inability to distinguish between the fast paced, as near to live as possible action of Twitter and actual journalism.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: red hander on December 10, 2019, 03:06:24 PM
The BBC's obviously biased reporting of the election has everything to do with licking Johnson's hole to stop him ditching the licence fee... they're getting as bad as Fox News
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on December 10, 2019, 03:12:41 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 10, 2019, 02:40:13 PM
Good to see people are managing to restrain themselves when it comes to rhetoric come election time.

Kuenssberg and Maitlis are "vile" apparently.

Morons in 2019 appear to have an inability to distinguish between the fast paced, as near to live as possible action of Twitter and actual journalism.

Yeah as someone said the journalists are in a constant race to be first with "breaking news", and they will take a chance with being first and wrong as opposed to second and right.

Emily Maitlis would, in my mind, be one of the most respected journalists across any medium in the UK. Maybe some of you need to lay off following the Labour Momentum bot accounts for a while.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on December 10, 2019, 03:34:51 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 10, 2019, 02:40:13 PM
Good to see people are managing to restrain themselves when it comes to rhetoric come election time.

Kuenssberg and Maitlis are "vile" apparently.

Morons in 2019 appear to have an inability to distinguish between the fast paced, as near to live as possible action of Twitter and actual journalism.

There is no excuse for inaccurate reporting. It is as simple as that. If one person tells you it is raining outside and another says it is not then it is your job to look out the window and check for yourself. This was lazy journalism at best.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: mouview on December 10, 2019, 03:43:58 PM
Quote from: Walter Cronc on December 10, 2019, 11:32:03 AM
Its not beyond the realms of possibilities that Johnson could lose Uxbridge. He's only ahead by 5k in 2017, closing from 10k the previous election. If hes not an MP can he not be Prime Minister?

I think if he loses his seat he can only remain PM by being made a Lord.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on December 10, 2019, 03:52:57 PM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on December 10, 2019, 03:34:51 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 10, 2019, 02:40:13 PM
Good to see people are managing to restrain themselves when it comes to rhetoric come election time.

Kuenssberg and Maitlis are "vile" apparently.

Morons in 2019 appear to have an inability to distinguish between the fast paced, as near to live as possible action of Twitter and actual journalism.

There is no excuse for inaccurate reporting. It is as simple as that. If one person tells you it is raining outside and another says it is not then it is your job to look out the window and check for yourself. This was lazy journalism at best.

It wasn't lazy journalism. Paul Brand for example specifically said "Conservatives are saying X happened". What they're reporting is that the Tories said this, not that it actually happened. A tweet isn't the ten o'clock news ffs
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on December 10, 2019, 04:25:26 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 10, 2019, 03:52:57 PM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on December 10, 2019, 03:34:51 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 10, 2019, 02:40:13 PM
Good to see people are managing to restrain themselves when it comes to rhetoric come election time.

Kuenssberg and Maitlis are "vile" apparently.

Morons in 2019 appear to have an inability to distinguish between the fast paced, as near to live as possible action of Twitter and actual journalism.

There is no excuse for inaccurate reporting. It is as simple as that. If one person tells you it is raining outside and another says it is not then it is your job to look out the window and check for yourself. This was lazy journalism at best.

It wasn't lazy journalism. Paul Brand for example specifically said "Conservatives are saying X happened". What they're reporting is that the Tories said this, not that it actually happened. A tweet isn't the ten o'clock news ffs

Of course it was lazy journalism FFS. She is a BBC journalist who is a near daily fixture on the nightly news. How can it be anything else. You are basically saying she can say whatever she likes, true or not, and so long as it is on Twitter and not the TV then that is alright.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on December 10, 2019, 04:35:58 PM
Jesus Christ, Kuenssberg tweeted what she had heard. Just like Peston and even f**king Tom Newton Dunn. This is how Twitter works. They didn't report it as fact and when it was apparent that it wasn't true, I know Kuenssberg at least apologised.

Her job is not to be an investigative reporter and tell you the truth. Her job is to report on the politics going on around everything. The conservatives making false claims about someone getting punched is clearly politics.

Going back to your example of the weather, if it's raining outside, her job isn't to tell you it's raining outside. Her job is to tell you that there's a clampet who claims it isn't.

If people want live, rolling fast-paced Twitter style news they have to accept that tweets on live, unfolding events won't have had the benefit of editorial scrutiny. That's just simply the world we live in, not evidence of a pro Tory media conspiracy.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on December 10, 2019, 04:48:48 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 10, 2019, 04:35:58 PM
Jesus Christ, Kuenssberg tweeted what she had heard. Just like Peston and even f**king Tom Newton Dunn. This is how Twitter works. They didn't report it as fact and when it was apparent that it wasn't true, I know Kuenssberg at least apologised.

Her job is not to be an investigative reporter and tell you the truth. Her job is to report on the politics going on around everything. The conservatives making false claims about someone getting punched is clearly politics.

Going back to your example of the weather, if it's raining outside, her job isn't to tell you it's raining outside. Her job is to tell you that there's a clampet who claims it isn't.

If people want live, rolling fast-paced Twitter style news they have to accept that tweets on live, unfolding events won't have had the benefit of editorial scrutiny. That's just simply the world we live in, not evidence of a pro Tory media conspiracy.

I mentioned nothing on a conspiracy on any side. I simply said it was lazy journalism. It's her job like any impartial reporter to tell you the truth. Sadly these days the truth is merely an inconvenience. She didn't tweet the Queen was dead the other day. I'm sure she fact checked that first. This is no different.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on December 10, 2019, 04:56:52 PM
I imagine she didn't tweet that the Queen is dead because, as the BBC's political editor, she's generally used to having better sources across the board than a screenshot of Gibbo and his mates.

All this hysteria (not from you, I mean in general) demanding that Kuenssberg and Peston reveal their sources is indicative of the mindset of people these days. Everything has to be on the extreme, and there's no such thing as a mistake or something being incorrect. Instead it has to be calculated fake news from the dishonest mainstream media. The Tories and their ilk are a given but the hypocrisy from so many Labour cheerleaders who don't realise how Trumpian the way they behave is is lamentable.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Franko on December 10, 2019, 05:05:57 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 10, 2019, 04:56:52 PM
I imagine she didn't tweet that the Queen is dead because, as the BBC's political editor, she's generally used to having better sources across the board than a screenshot of Gibbo and his mates.

All this hysteria (not from you, I mean in general) demanding that Kuenssberg and Peston reveal their sources is indicative of the mindset of people these days. Everything has to be on the extreme, and there's no such thing as a mistake or something being incorrect. Instead it has to be calculated fake news from the dishonest mainstream media. The Tories and their ilk are a given but the hypocrisy from so many Labour cheerleaders who don't realise how Trumpian the way they behave is is lamentable.

I'm sorry.  You are wrong.  (and in another swearing frenzy it would seem)

Both she and Peston tweeted it as fact.  No qualification, no "sources tell me" - just fact.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on December 10, 2019, 05:12:13 PM
Eh, Kuenssberg didn't. See the part in her tweet where she says "hearing that...", that's the bit that gives it away that she's passing on third party information, not reporting facts
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on December 10, 2019, 05:16:33 PM
Are "we" going to take N Belfast and hold Fermanagh Sth Tyrone?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Walter Cronc on December 10, 2019, 05:18:23 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 10, 2019, 05:12:13 PM
Eh, Kuenssberg didn't. See the part in her tweet where she says "hearing that...", that's the bit that gives it away that she's passing on third party information, not reporting facts

"Why so serious, son?"
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on December 10, 2019, 05:23:34 PM
The irony of your username in the context of this particular conversation.

Wonder what he'd think of you calling women vile for trying to do their jobs.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on December 10, 2019, 05:32:21 PM
Some amount of dirty actions in the Foyle Constituency. So much for Integrity and Respect.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rois on December 10, 2019, 05:35:56 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 10, 2019, 05:16:33 PM
Are "we" going to take N Belfast and hold Fermanagh Sth Tyrone?
N Belfast is on a knife edge. The priest at mass on Sunday in St Therese on Somerton Rd wasn't encouraging a SF vote anyway!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: marty34 on December 10, 2019, 05:46:53 PM
Quote from: trailer on December 10, 2019, 05:32:21 PM
Some amount of dirty actions in the Foyle Constituency. So much for Integrity and Respect.

Just saw this 9n website - a letter? Loads of spin in elections these days.  It's nearly a full time job digging the dirt but does it make any difference?

Look at the campaign agsinst JF a few weeks ago: it has totally worked against what they had intended I think.  Anti PBP posters in west Belfast.  This is the way elections are going - look at the websites above the Labour one on the net - false sites: fake news.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Franko on December 10, 2019, 05:59:15 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 10, 2019, 05:12:13 PM
Eh, Kuenssberg didn't. See the part in her tweet where she says "hearing that...", that's the bit that gives it away that she's passing on third party information, not reporting facts

The wording of Kuenssberg's version is maybe debatable.  Peston regurgitated what Dom told him to as a fact.

Hardly the standard expected of two of the top political correspondents in the country.

The litany of 'mistakes' made by the BBC in the recent past (which have somehow ALL managed to be 'mistakes' which benefited the Tories) is just too much of a coincidence for me.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on December 10, 2019, 06:09:33 PM
Gildernew will do well to hold FST. NB is a toss of a coin. If SF hold what they have that'll be a very good election for them.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 10, 2019, 07:21:55 PM
If the PM makes untrue claims (ie states lies as facts) when standing on a major campaign platform is it the role of good journalists to expose those lies?? Especially the journalists claiming to cover the event.

The same applies to coverage of any other leading candidate
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on December 10, 2019, 07:30:23 PM
Quote from: Rois on December 10, 2019, 05:35:56 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 10, 2019, 05:16:33 PM
Are "we" going to take N Belfast and hold Fermanagh Sth Tyrone?
N Belfast is on a knife edge. The priest at mass on Sunday in St Therese on Somerton Rd wasn't encouraging a SF vote anyway!

Probably a DUP fan.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Franko on December 10, 2019, 08:36:31 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 10, 2019, 02:40:13 PM
Good to see people are managing to restrain themselves when it comes to rhetoric come election time.

Kuenssberg and Maitlis are "vile" apparently.

Morons in 2019 appear to have an inability to distinguish between the fast paced, as near to live as possible action of Twitter and actual journalism.

I'd venture that the 'morons' are the people in 2019 who don't realise that social media IS journalism.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on December 10, 2019, 09:31:20 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 10, 2019, 04:35:58 PM
Jesus Christ, Kuenssberg tweeted what she had heard. Just like Peston and even f**king Tom Newton Dunn. This is how Twitter works. They didn't report it as fact and when it was apparent that it wasn't true, I know Kuenssberg at least apologised.

Her job is not to be an investigative reporter and tell you the truth. Her job is to report on the politics going on around everything. The conservatives making false claims about someone getting punched is clearly politics.

Going back to your example of the weather, if it's raining outside, her job isn't to tell you it's raining outside. Her job is to tell you that there's a clampet who claims it isn't.

If people want live, rolling fast-paced Twitter style news they have to accept that tweets on live, unfolding events won't have had the benefit of editorial scrutiny. That's just simply the world we live in, not evidence of a pro Tory media conspiracy.

Jesus Christ, have people really been conditioned into accepting this? If it's not raining outside, a politicians says it is raining outside, a journalist's job is not to just tell you what the politician said. It's their job to look out the f***ing window and let you know if they're telling the truth or not.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: marty34 on December 10, 2019, 09:49:45 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on December 10, 2019, 07:30:23 PM
Quote from: Rois on December 10, 2019, 05:35:56 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 10, 2019, 05:16:33 PM
Are "we" going to take N Belfast and hold Fermanagh Sth Tyrone?
N Belfast is on a knife edge. The priest at mass on Sunday in St Therese on Somerton Rd wasn't encouraging a SF vote anyway!

Probably a DUP fan.

Our moral guardians!!!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on December 10, 2019, 10:09:20 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 10, 2019, 09:49:45 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on December 10, 2019, 07:30:23 PM
Quote from: Rois on December 10, 2019, 05:35:56 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 10, 2019, 05:16:33 PM
Are "we" going to take N Belfast and hold Fermanagh Sth Tyrone?
N Belfast is on a knife edge. The priest at mass on Sunday in St Therese on Somerton Rd wasn't encouraging a SF vote anyway!

Probably a DUP fan.

Our moral guardians!!!

Add in Danny O'Connor + Pat Buckley to that mixture & bingo.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on December 10, 2019, 10:20:43 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 10, 2019, 09:31:20 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 10, 2019, 04:35:58 PM
Jesus Christ, Kuenssberg tweeted what she had heard. Just like Peston and even f**king Tom Newton Dunn. This is how Twitter works. They didn't report it as fact and when it was apparent that it wasn't true, I know Kuenssberg at least apologised.

Her job is not to be an investigative reporter and tell you the truth. Her job is to report on the politics going on around everything. The conservatives making false claims about someone getting punched is clearly politics.

Going back to your example of the weather, if it's raining outside, her job isn't to tell you it's raining outside. Her job is to tell you that there's a clampet who claims it isn't.

If people want live, rolling fast-paced Twitter style news they have to accept that tweets on live, unfolding events won't have had the benefit of editorial scrutiny. That's just simply the world we live in, not evidence of a pro Tory media conspiracy.

Jesus Christ, have people really been conditioned into accepting this? If it's not raining outside, a politicians says it is raining outside, a journalist's job is not to just tell you what the politician said. It's their job to look out the f***ing window and let you know if they're telling the truth or not.

That false, clichéd analysis was attempted earlier. Try harder.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Franko on December 10, 2019, 10:32:44 PM
He's right though.  The whole function of political journalism in society is to provide truth and objective  analysis of the political landscape.  To use another cliche... to hold power to account.

You seem to think that it's to be little more than a gossip columnist.  Report what they said.  The fact that that is the level of political journalism which satisfies you is unsurprising.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on December 10, 2019, 11:05:16 PM
Ah, I see you're doing the thing where you put words in my mouth. Given the topic, how wonderfully ironic.

Political journalism appears to have been dragged down because the politics it has to cover is at an all time low, on both sides of the aisle.

Do people really, genuinely believe that the BBC and ITV political editors are simply shills for the Tories? Peston, Kuenssberg and Maitlis practically ridicule Johnson at times. BBC devotes an half an hour every Friday night with HIGNFY so Hislop and Merton can ridicule Johnson, and May before him, and Cameron before her. Jonny Mercer was on it about six months ago and sat there being dragged from pillar to post for 30 nearly the entire episode.

They, along with others, were fed a particular mistruth which they then shared with us via the majesty of Twitter. You're right that Peston didn't qualify it, which he absolutely should have. The others that I've seen certainly did. They all then immediately apologised and clarified that it absolutely hadn't happened. If people want their news wired directly into their brain via Twitter in a smartphone then this is the sort of thing that will happen from time to time.

The hysteria surrounding it is absolutely nonsense. There was a claim, it was shared perhaps a tad eagerly and embarrassingly and subsequently debunked. Demanding they reveal their sources etc is crazy. We're not talking state secrets and national security here
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on December 10, 2019, 11:09:12 PM
And just to be clear, Emily Maitlis is an absolutely exceptional journalist.

People running about calling people "vile" because they don't cheerlead in precisely the way they want them to is indicative of the direction society is heading. "Disagree with me? Well, f**k you Nazi/Commie pig."
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on December 10, 2019, 11:12:38 PM
Final YouGov poll gives the Tories a majority of 28, which is within the margin of error.

Tory 339
Labour 231
SNP 41
Lib Dem 15
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: BennyHarp on December 10, 2019, 11:28:15 PM
I don't think the whole BBC is biased, but I think certain reporters have let themselves down a little during this campaign. Laura Kuenssberg is generally a decent enough political journalist but she either has a clear Tory bias in this election or in an attempt to maintain close "sources" within the future (Tory) Government she is happy to pass on the spin that comes from Tory HQ. Either way it's not a good look for a BBC journalist.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 10, 2019, 11:41:00 PM
It's the failure to expose lies that needs to be challenged. It's so much wider than BBC and individual reporters but stuff like this doesn't help the BBC

https://evolvepolitics.com/bbc-chiefs-say-its-wrong-to-expose-boris-johnsons-lies-because-it-undermines-trust-in-democracy/
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Franko on December 10, 2019, 11:43:39 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 10, 2019, 11:05:16 PM
Ah, I see you're doing the thing where you put words in my mouth. Given the topic, how wonderfully ironic.

Political journalism appears to have been dragged down because the politics it has to cover is at an all time low, on both sides of the aisle.

Do people really, genuinely believe that the BBC and ITV political editors are simply shills for the Tories? Peston, Kuenssberg and Maitlis practically ridicule Johnson at times. BBC devotes an half an hour every Friday night with HIGNFY so Hislop and Merton can ridicule Johnson, and May before him, and Cameron before her. Jonny Mercer was on it about six months ago and sat there being dragged from pillar to post for 30 nearly the entire episode.

They, along with others, were fed a particular mistruth which they then shared with us via the majesty of Twitter. You're right that Peston didn't qualify it, which he absolutely should have. The others that I've seen certainly did. They all then immediately apologised and clarified that it absolutely hadn't happened. If people want their news wired directly into their brain via Twitter in a smartphone then this is the sort of thing that will happen from time to time.

The hysteria surrounding it is absolutely nonsense. There was a claim, it was shared perhaps a tad eagerly and embarrassingly and subsequently debunked. Demanding they reveal their sources etc is crazy. We're not talking state secrets and national security here

Not putting words into your mouth at all.  I've double checked my story.  I know it's not print media, but I was able to do that.  Took me less than a minute.

You said this today.

Going back to your example of the weather, if it's raining outside, her job isn't to tell you it's raining outside. Her job is to tell you that there's a clampet who claims it isn't.

If you want to retract that statement, well, that's obviously your choice.  But at the minute that is your clearly stated position.

Kuenssberg's qualification is highly debatable.  The latest in a long line of 'mistakes' by the BBC news team, all of which have been to the benefit of team BoJo.  Peston didn't qualify it at all.  Like a breathless child with a head full of tall tales, he picked up the phone and told a million people a total lie.  Do I believe these people are shills for the Tories?  Absolutely.  Do I believe they should reveal their sources?  It's up to them.  I do know that if someone had made an utter fool out of me in that fashion, I would be in no mood to protect them.  Also, what happens on HIGNFY is irrelevant to this.  Gary Lineker criticises the Tories regularly.  He's still on MOTD.  I don't see what either has to do with the News team?

Humour me here.  Do you think either would have retracted or changed their position even slightly had a video of the event not emerged irrefutably skewering their scoop?  Can you not see how irresponsible (at best) this is?  We are not talking about local hacks here, these two are supposedly the top political journalists in the country.  And you are defending them because apparently people demand the news immediately?  I've yet to hear anyone saying that they'll accept a lie if they get it quick?  Total nonsense.

And yes, the hysteria is too much.  Not sure you are in any position to criticise anyone who gets a little hysterical though.  Your posts are an angry mess at times.  Reminds me of that guy stew who used to post here years ago.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Franko on December 10, 2019, 11:48:33 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 10, 2019, 11:09:12 PM
And just to be clear, Emily Maitlis is an absolutely exceptional journalist.

People running about calling people "vile" because they don't cheerlead in precisely the way they want them to is indicative of the direction society is heading. "Disagree with me? Well, f**k you Nazi/Commie pig."

The lack of self awareness here is astounding.

And just to be clear, I didn't call anyone 'vile'.  I assume that (despite the 'and' tagging this to your post replying to me) you are responding to someone else here.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Dire Ear on December 11, 2019, 12:02:17 AM
Well played Franko
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on December 11, 2019, 02:47:20 AM
Clearly stated article making the case that the BBC "mistakes" are evidence of bias (Franko's already made this case quite succinctly, but here's a more detailed account).

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2019/12/bbc-media-bias-boris-johnson-uk (https://www.jacobinmag.com/2019/12/bbc-media-bias-boris-johnson-uk)
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 11, 2019, 05:00:21 AM
Quote from: gallsman on December 10, 2019, 11:12:38 PM
Final YouGov poll gives the Tories a majority of 28, which is within the margin of error.

Tory 339
Labour 231
SNP 41
Lib Dem 15

Polling comes with 2 health warnings

1. Polling error
2. Tactical voting
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on December 11, 2019, 08:03:55 AM
Some belated gains for Labour in the latest poll which indicate a possibility of a hung parliament. Projected Tory majority down from 68 to 28 and with so many marginal seats and no provision for tactical voting, it is too tight to call the result.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: bennydorano on December 11, 2019, 08:06:48 AM
That MRP Seat predictor didn't even mention the 18 NI seats. I know we're an irrelevance and irritant but I wonder were we even factored in.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on December 11, 2019, 08:13:57 AM
The nightmare scenario for everyone here would be the DUP holding the balance of power again with their 9/10 seats and this is a possibility. Arlene Foster when interviewed yesterday seemed to think that it was a possibility and reading between the lines they would jump back in with the Tories again if the numbers fell their way.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on December 11, 2019, 08:53:36 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on December 11, 2019, 08:13:57 AM
The nightmare scenario for everyone here would be the DUP holding the balance of power again with their 9/10 seats and this is a possibility. Arlene Foster when interviewed yesterday seemed to think that it was a possibility and reading between the lines they would jump back in with the Tories again if the numbers fell their way.

Well she is going to say that in order to cling to as many votes as possible. But it certainly isn't beyond the realms of possibilities.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on December 11, 2019, 08:58:41 AM
Quote from: seafoid on December 11, 2019, 05:00:21 AM
Quote from: gallsman on December 10, 2019, 11:12:38 PM
Final YouGov poll gives the Tories a majority of 28, which is within the margin of error.

Tory 339
Labour 231
SNP 41
Lib Dem 15

Polling comes with 2 health warnings

1. Polling error
2. Tactical voting

The tories are getting back in. It's going to happen SF. I don't want it, you dont want it but we didn't want brexit either.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Franko on December 11, 2019, 09:12:54 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 11, 2019, 08:58:41 AM
Quote from: seafoid on December 11, 2019, 05:00:21 AM
Quote from: gallsman on December 10, 2019, 11:12:38 PM
Final YouGov poll gives the Tories a majority of 28, which is within the margin of error.

Tory 339
Labour 231
SNP 41
Lib Dem 15

Polling comes with 2 health warnings

1. Polling error
2. Tactical voting

The tories are getting back in. It's going to happen SF. I don't want it, you dont want it but we didn't want brexit either.

I think you're right here.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on December 11, 2019, 09:48:30 AM
Quote from: marty34 on December 10, 2019, 09:49:45 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on December 10, 2019, 07:30:23 PM
Quote from: Rois on December 10, 2019, 05:35:56 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 10, 2019, 05:16:33 PM
Are "we" going to take N Belfast and hold Fermanagh Sth Tyrone?
N Belfast is on a knife edge. The priest at mass on Sunday in St Therese on Somerton Rd wasn't encouraging a SF vote anyway!

Probably a DUP fan.

Our moral guardians!!!

The Catholic Church has a long road to travel before they can consider themselves that.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on December 11, 2019, 09:51:08 AM
Quote from: Franko on December 11, 2019, 09:12:54 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 11, 2019, 08:58:41 AM
Quote from: seafoid on December 11, 2019, 05:00:21 AM
Quote from: gallsman on December 10, 2019, 11:12:38 PM
Final YouGov poll gives the Tories a majority of 28, which is within the margin of error.

Tory 339
Labour 231
SNP 41
Lib Dem 15

Polling comes with 2 health warnings

1. Polling error
2. Tactical voting

The tories are getting back in. It's going to happen SF. I don't want it, you dont want it but we didn't want brexit either.

I think you're right here.

I think you're right too but then the Brits are no better than the MAGA and KAGA yanks that they belittle so much along with the Trumpmeister.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on December 11, 2019, 10:26:13 AM
Quote from: seafoid on December 11, 2019, 05:00:21 AM
Quote from: gallsman on December 10, 2019, 11:12:38 PM
Final YouGov poll gives the Tories a majority of 28, which is within the margin of error.

Tory 339
Labour 231
SNP 41
Lib Dem 15

Polling comes with 2 health warnings

1. Polling error
2. Tactical voting

Of course taking polling numbers as gospel would be absolutely idiotic. Ignoring them altogether would be even more so.

The possibility of a hung parliament being within the margin of error is significant and grounds for some small optimism though.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 11, 2019, 11:32:05 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 11, 2019, 08:58:41 AM
Quote from: seafoid on December 11, 2019, 05:00:21 AM
Quote from: gallsman on December 10, 2019, 11:12:38 PM
Final YouGov poll gives the Tories a majority of 28, which is within the margin of error.

Tory 339
Labour 231
SNP 41
Lib Dem 15

Polling comes with 2 health warnings

1. Polling error
2. Tactical voting

The tories are getting back in. It's going to happen SF. I don't want it, you dont want it but we didn't want brexit either.

There is interesting stuff happening in places like Workington (8% Brexit Party expected to split the leave vote and keep the tory out and Putney (intensive Labour canvassing expected to keep the Tory out)
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 11, 2019, 11:33:37 AM
https://dorseteye.com/jonathan-pie-speaks-more-truth-in-5-minutes-than-laura-kuenssberg-and-robert-peston-have-in-their-whole-careers/
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on December 11, 2019, 11:52:15 AM
Hung parliament was 4/1 now moved into 2/1 so it is increasingly likely although a small Conservative majority is still most likely on the markets. 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on December 11, 2019, 12:44:17 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 11, 2019, 11:32:05 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 11, 2019, 08:58:41 AM
Quote from: seafoid on December 11, 2019, 05:00:21 AM
Quote from: gallsman on December 10, 2019, 11:12:38 PM
Final YouGov poll gives the Tories a majority of 28, which is within the margin of error.

Tory 339
Labour 231
SNP 41
Lib Dem 15

Polling comes with 2 health warnings

1. Polling error
2. Tactical voting

The tories are getting back in. It's going to happen SF. I don't want it, you dont want it but we didn't want brexit either.

There is interesting stuff happening in places like Workington (8% Brexit Party expected to split the leave vote and keep the tory out and Putney (intensive Labour canvassing expected to keep the Tory out)

The problem is that any Labour gains from the Tories are doing to be outnumbered by seats going the other direction by a factor of 10.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: bennydorano on December 11, 2019, 12:59:02 PM
Really shitty day weather wise forecast for the majority of England 2moro, could be a big factor.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 11, 2019, 01:19:12 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 10, 2019, 04:35:58 PM
Jesus Christ, Kuenssberg tweeted what she had heard. Just like Peston and even f**king Tom Newton Dunn. This is how Twitter works. They didn't report it as fact and when it was apparent that it wasn't true, I know Kuenssberg at least apologised.

Her job is not to be an investigative reporter and tell you the truth. Her job is to report on the politics going on around everything. The conservatives making false claims about someone getting punched is clearly politics.

Going back to your example of the weather, if it's raining outside, her job isn't to tell you it's raining outside. Her job is to tell you that there's a clampet who claims it isn't.

If people want live, rolling fast-paced Twitter style news they have to accept that tweets on live, unfolding events won't have had the benefit of editorial scrutiny. That's just simply the world we live in, not evidence of a pro Tory media conspiracy.

WISE UP FFS.

Its her job to report the truth. She cannot do the 2nd bolded bit without identifying what is the truth!

If she wants to just report what a political party tells her - then she needs to resign and join the PR dept of said party.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Hound on December 11, 2019, 01:30:06 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 11, 2019, 10:26:13 AM
Quote from: seafoid on December 11, 2019, 05:00:21 AM
Quote from: gallsman on December 10, 2019, 11:12:38 PM
Final YouGov poll gives the Tories a majority of 28, which is within the margin of error.

Tory 339
Labour 231
SNP 41
Lib Dem 15

Polling comes with 2 health warnings

1. Polling error
2. Tactical voting

Of course taking polling numbers as gospel would be absolutely idiotic. Ignoring them altogether would be even more so.

The possibility of a hung parliament being within the margin of error is significant and grounds for some small optimism though.
Very worst for Ireland is a hung parliament with DUP supporting BJ, with the caveat that Brexit border moves from Irish Sea to Ireland.

Tory small majority means current Brexit deal goes through.

Tory big majority could see BrINO as a runner. Taking business concerns on board and delaying implementation of WTO until a trade deal is done, and staying within customs union until the trade deal is signed and sealed. Aiming for it all to be done during the life of the government.

Hung parliament with Corbyn as leader of a rainbow coalition would be very interesting. New referendum. If Brexit wins again (likely) then current deal goes through IMO. If Remain wins, then all is well again in the world  :o

I'd love to see Corbyn win to see what happens to the UK economy.
   
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on December 11, 2019, 01:34:47 PM
QuoteHung parliament with Corbyn as leader of a rainbow coalition would be very interesting. New referendum. If Brexit wins again (likely) then current deal goes through IMO. If Remain wins, then all is well again in the world  :o

That's not the Labour position though - it's to go back to Europe (again) for another (I know) deal and then put that one to a referendum.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 11, 2019, 01:37:13 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 11, 2019, 01:34:47 PM
QuoteHung parliament with Corbyn as leader of a rainbow coalition would be very interesting. New referendum. If Brexit wins again (likely) then current deal goes through IMO. If Remain wins, then all is well again in the world  :o

That's not the Labour position though - it's to go back to Europe (again) for another (I know) deal and then put that one to a referendum.

Which to me is only logical.

You don't sign on the dotted line to buy a car 3 years ahead of knowing anything about what the car will be like.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on December 11, 2019, 01:51:01 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 11, 2019, 01:34:47 PM
QuoteHung parliament with Corbyn as leader of a rainbow coalition would be very interesting. New referendum. If Brexit wins again (likely) then current deal goes through IMO. If Remain wins, then all is well again in the world  :o

That's not the Labour position though - it's to go back to Europe (again) for another (I know) deal and then put that one to a referendum.

If Labour do get in a position then it'll be a far softer Brexit than what's currently on the table.

If there's a hung Parliament where Boris needs the DUP support, I still think he'll hammer on with his "oven ready" deal which got past the first phase last time without the DUP but he wanted it railroaded through in double quick time and that's where he came unstuck.
He'll appease the DUP with a few peerages later.

Boris with a slim majority same as above minus the DUP peerages.

Boris with a large majority I think the hoor might go full hard Brexit knowing that a few "one nation" Tories can be dropped off and he'll still get it through.

I really can't see a good outcome for the DUP on this one and TBH NI is pretty much shafted unless Labour get in.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Aristo 60 on December 11, 2019, 02:38:26 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 11, 2019, 01:37:13 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 11, 2019, 01:34:47 PM
QuoteHung parliament with Corbyn as leader of a rainbow coalition would be very interesting. New referendum. If Brexit wins again (likely) then current deal goes through IMO. If Remain wins, then all is well again in the world  :o

That's not the Labour position though - it's to go back to Europe (again) for another (I know) deal and then put that one to a referendum.

Which to me is only logical.

You don't sign on the dotted line to buy a car 3 years ahead of knowing anything about what the car will be like.

You do for really nice cars

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 11, 2019, 03:20:50 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 11, 2019, 12:44:17 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 11, 2019, 11:32:05 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 11, 2019, 08:58:41 AM
Quote from: seafoid on December 11, 2019, 05:00:21 AM
Quote from: gallsman on December 10, 2019, 11:12:38 PM
Final YouGov poll gives the Tories a majority of 28, which is within the margin of error.

Tory 339
Labour 231
SNP 41
Lib Dem 15

Polling comes with 2 health warnings

1. Polling error
2. Tactical voting

The tories are getting back in. It's going to happen SF. I don't want it, you dont want it but we didn't want brexit either.

There is interesting stuff happening in places like Workington (8% Brexit Party expected to split the leave vote and keep the tory out and Putney (intensive Labour canvassing expected to keep the Tory out)

The problem is that any Labour gains from the Tories are doing to be outnumbered by seats going the other direction by a factor of 10.

I  think the Tories took on a lot by rebranding as English Nationalists and targeting Labour seats in the North while ignoring Liberal tories in the South.
It's a risky strategy at a time when the economy is struggling.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 11, 2019, 03:30:44 PM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/11/revealed-49-seats-brexit-party-splitting-leave-vote-risking/

Revealed: The 49 seats where the Brexit Party is splitting the Leave vote and risking a hung parliament

Nigel Farage is under increasing pressure to stand down Brexit Party candidates


Camilla Tominey, associate editor  Jack Walters
11 DECEMBER 2019 • 11:18AM

The Telegraph has identified nearly 50 seats where the Brexit Party appears to be blocking a potential Tory victory, piling further pressure on Nigel Farage to stand candidates down after pollsters refused to rule out a hung parliament on Thursday.

The Brexit Party leader is already facing calls to put country before party after two of his prospective MPs stood down in Lincoln and Redcar - which are both on the list of viable Tory targets - to make way for the Conservatives.

Today, Brexit Party founder Catherine Blaiklock has revealed she is voting Tory and has described Mr Farage's strategy as a "disaster," saying: "Nigel has failed catastrophically, because you're not going to get a WTO Brexit. You have to compromise ... If you want Brexit, you must vote Tory now." It came after Reece Wilkes stood down in Lincoln and Jacqui Cummins said she would no longer be "actively contesting" Redcar.

Taking the projections of You Gov's latest MRP poll on Tuesday night, which predicts voting intention in every constituency in the UK, analysis suggests that there are a total of 49 seats where the Brexit Party appear to be playing into Labour's hands by splitting the Leave vote.

The constituencies - which are largely across the so-called 'Red Wall' of the Midlands and the North, include Tony Blair's old Sedgefield seat, Bolsover, which has been held by Labour's Dennis Skinner since 1970 and North West Durham which has never voted Conservative before.


The research comes after Mr Farage doubled down on Tuesday by urging Tory Brexit supporters to vote tactically for his party in more than 100 constituencies he said the Conservatives "have not won in living memory and are not going to win in this election".

The Brexit Party then published a list of 132 seats where they are standing candidates and the Conservatives have not won in 50 years, urging leavers "not to waste your vote".

But the Telegraph seat analysis suggests that the Tories do stand a chance of winning some of these seats if the Brexit Party was not running against them while Mr Farage's MPs appear to have no chance of being elected in any of the constituencies.

In North West Durham, for example, Labour are currently in the lead on 41 per cent, with the Conservatives trailing on 36 per cent. But if the Brexit Party's 11 per cent was taken out of the equation - and considering the fact that their supporters are leavers not remainers - the seat could feasibly swing to the Tories for the first time in half a century.

The list also shows that the Brexit Party is not in the lead in any of the constituencies. Even in Hartlepool, where Brexit Party chairman Richard Tice is the candidate, the party is on third place on 22 per cent compared to Labour on 39 per cent and the Conservatives on on 31 per cent.


Former Tory Party chairman Brandon Lewis told the Telegraph: "This election and latest polls show that if people want Brexit done there is only one way to ensure that, which is to vote Conservative. A vote for the Brexit Party will only lead to a hung parliament and a Labour victory."

This morning the Brexit Central website, set up Matthew Elliott, the former chief executive of Vote Leave, urged Brexit Party voters to support the Tories, saying it was the only way to avoid a hung parliament that would "kibosh Brexit entirely".

Writing on the website with editor Jonathan Isaby, a former Telegraph journalist, the pair of staunch Brexiteers said: "We now find ourselves at a watershed moment in which there are only two scenarios.

"The first is that Boris Johnson secures a Conservative majority at this election, puts his Withdrawal Agreement Bill in front of MPs before Christmas and then secures our withdrawal from the EU by the end of January.

"The second scenario is that Boris Johnson fails to get a Commons majority and an assembled hotpotch of Labour, SNP and Lib Dem MPs ensure that the Brexit we voted for in 2016 is blocked and a new referendum is held between Remain and a version of Remain they would call Brexit. And that referendum would in any case be rigged by giving the vote to 16-year-olds and EU nationals.


Lance Forman MEP

@LanceForman
All Brexit Party candidates should follow Reece Wilkes' honourable and brave decision to ensure Brexit happens and to stop an antisemitic Marxist coming to power.

Well done Reece. 👏👏https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7774035/Brexit-Party-election-candidate-vows-stand-avoid-splitting-Leave-vote.html ...


Brexit Party election candidate vows to stand down
Brexit Party candidate Reece Wilkes, who is standing in marginal Lincoln, urged voters to back the Tory hopeful to make sure Brexit happens.

dailymail.co.uk

"We are well aware that some of our readers are not totally enamoured of the Johnson deal. Of course it isn't perfect. But it is the only form of Brexit on offer. The only alternative to the Johnson deal is no Brexit at all.

"Tempting as a vote for them may be to Brexiteers, the Brexit Party are not in a position to form a government. In fact, every vote for the Brexit Party - or any party other than the Conservatives - is simply one more vote towards creating another hung parliament that would kibosh Brexit entirely."

A Brexit Party spokesman told the Telegraph the MRP seat projections "don't translate as you are suggesting", adding: "It doesn't work like that. The people who are voting for us are not Tory voters they are Labour voters.  If we don't stand those people either stay at home or switch back to Labour - they don't go and vote for the Tories. The Brexit Party isn't an entry drug for Conservatism. If the Tory party can't win against a discredited, profligate, anti-Semitic Marxist, it's not our fault."
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 11, 2019, 04:04:58 PM
Quote from: Aristo 60 on December 11, 2019, 02:38:26 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 11, 2019, 01:37:13 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 11, 2019, 01:34:47 PM
QuoteHung parliament with Corbyn as leader of a rainbow coalition would be very interesting. New referendum. If Brexit wins again (likely) then current deal goes through IMO. If Remain wins, then all is well again in the world  :o

That's not the Labour position though - it's to go back to Europe (again) for another (I know) deal and then put that one to a referendum.

Which to me is only logical.

You don't sign on the dotted line to buy a car 3 years ahead of knowing anything about what the car will be like.

You do for really nice cars

Thats the folks with more money than sense.


Which I suppose given who will stand to gain from Brexit, makes some sense that they think its rational.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on December 11, 2019, 07:59:57 PM
Predictions:
Tories narrow majority by around 10-15 seats
DUP 9 or 10 - Pengelly gone but they will win North Down from Sylvia Hermon - Dodds may lose out to Finucane will be very close
SF 6 or 7 - McCallion will lose her seat. Finucane v Dodds too close to call
SDLP 2 - Eastwood and Hanna to take a seat each from SF and DUP

So if Finucane wins North Belfast it would be 9 pro remain and 9 pro Brexit seats, otherwise pro Brexit will have a majority again.   
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: magpie seanie on December 11, 2019, 08:06:37 PM
Every seat the SDLP get reduces the DUP's potential "balance of power".
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: magpie seanie on December 11, 2019, 08:09:51 PM
We can argue that the polls are and have been inaccurate. What seems clear to me though is the direction of the momentum. Labour have undoubtedly closed the gap. Hopefully by enough and more.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: screenexile on December 11, 2019, 08:11:59 PM
Can't see Finucane winning NB they've gone all out with there with voter registration drives and townhall meetings to make sure it doesn't slip. Pissing on the street while very minor wouldn't have helped!!

I think the Torys get their majority by 20 or so then who the f**k knows what happens then??!!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: screenexile on December 11, 2019, 08:12:48 PM
PS. If Keir Starmer is leading that election Labour win by a landslide!!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Franko on December 11, 2019, 08:19:05 PM
Kuenssberg with another pro-Boris 'mistake' this afternoon.  Illegally discussing postal votes (which AFAIU, she shouldn't ever have been able to even see).

Also, this morning when GMB tried to get an interview with Boris, firstly his minder swears at the reporter (on live TV) and then his aides eventually shut Boris away IN A FRIDGE.

Kuenssberg tweeted and described the incident as 'a fuss'.  Seriously. A fuss.

Imagine that had been Corbyn, Swinson or Sturgeon?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 11, 2019, 08:58:13 PM
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2019/12/the-largest-vote-swings-in-british-general-election-history-censored-out-by-the-bbc-and-mainstream-media/amp/
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: HiMucker on December 11, 2019, 09:07:06 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 11, 2019, 08:12:48 PM
PS. If Keir Starmer is leading that election Labour win by a landslide!!
I just don't buy that. Around half the UK want Brexit to happen. Those people are not going to vote for a party that doesn't endorse brexit, no matter how charismatic the party leader is. This is a single issue election for the vast majority of UK voters.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 11, 2019, 09:09:18 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 11, 2019, 08:12:48 PM
PS. If Keir Starmer is leading that election Labour win by a landslide!!
If the Tories win there will be a tax on exclamation marks.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on December 11, 2019, 09:12:28 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on December 11, 2019, 09:07:06 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 11, 2019, 08:12:48 PM
PS. If Keir Starmer is leading that election Labour win by a landslide!!
I just don't buy that. Around half the UK want Brexit to happen. Those people are not going to vote for a party that doesn't endorse brexit, no matter how charismatic the party leader is. This is a single issue election for the vast majority of UK voters.

The problem for Labour is they have went to the hard left under Corbyn/McDonnell, people left of centre who have been Labour all their lives are told to f**k off to the Tories if any dissent was raised about the direction of the party and Labour expect those people to hold their nose and still vote Labour ?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: HiMucker on December 11, 2019, 09:16:34 PM
Quote from: Kidder81 on December 11, 2019, 09:12:28 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on December 11, 2019, 09:07:06 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 11, 2019, 08:12:48 PM
PS. If Keir Starmer is leading that election Labour win by a landslide!!
I just don't buy that. Around half the UK want Brexit to happen. Those people are not going to vote for a party that doesn't endorse brexit, no matter how charismatic the party leader is. This is a single issue election for the vast majority of UK voters.

The problem for Labour is they have went to the hard left under Corbyn/McDonnell, people left of centre who have been Labour all their lives are told to f**k off to the Tories if any dissent was raised about the direction of the party and Labour expect those people to hold their nose and still vote Labour ?
If you are left of centre and vote for the Tories you should be sectioned
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on December 11, 2019, 09:21:01 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on December 11, 2019, 09:16:34 PM
Quote from: Kidder81 on December 11, 2019, 09:12:28 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on December 11, 2019, 09:07:06 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 11, 2019, 08:12:48 PM
PS. If Keir Starmer is leading that election Labour win by a landslide!!
I just don't buy that. Around half the UK want Brexit to happen. Those people are not going to vote for a party that doesn't endorse brexit, no matter how charismatic the party leader is. This is a single issue election for the vast majority of UK voters.

The problem for Labour is they have went to the hard left under Corbyn/McDonnell, people left of centre who have been Labour all their lives are told to f**k off to the Tories if any dissent was raised about the direction of the party and Labour expect those people to hold their nose and still vote Labour ?
If you are left of centre and vote for the Tories you should be sectioned

They will more than likely not vote but they are votes Labour should have
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 11, 2019, 09:21:53 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on December 11, 2019, 09:07:06 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 11, 2019, 08:12:48 PM
PS. If Keir Starmer is leading that election Labour win by a landslide!!
I just don't buy that. Around half the UK want Brexit to happen. Those people are not going to vote for a party that doesn't endorse brexit, no matter how charismatic the party leader is. This is a single issue election for the vast majority of UK voters.

   https://www.ft.com/content/7a403354-1c33-11ea-97df-cc63de1d73f4

   "On Monday, Mr Johnson refused to look at a photo of the boy who had been forced to lie on a pile of coats in a Leeds hospital because of a lack of beds. The image served to highlight the state of the NHS, one of the few areas on which Labour is seen as somewhat more trusted than the Conservatives.

Most of the MRP survey was done before the NHS story broke. But Mr Roberts says: "Boris Johnson's actions here have done him no favours when it comes to the need to reassure Labour voters in northern marginals to back the Conservatives. Boris was on a mission to reassure Labour voters that it was OK to vote Tory. They may be reluctant to do so when seeing what they feel is his apparent heartlessness.""

Leave voters may not vote Tory because Johnson is an arsehole
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on December 11, 2019, 09:32:10 PM
Big gains for labour in latest poll just released up 3% points (only 5% behind Tories which is smallest gap since election was called) hung parliament is on the cards but who knows at this stage the polls bouncing all over the place.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: screenexile on December 11, 2019, 09:41:58 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on December 11, 2019, 09:32:10 PM
Big gains for labour in latest poll just released up 3% points (only 5% behind Tories which is smallest gap since election was called) hung parliament is on the cards but who knows at this stage the polls bouncing all over the place.

What polls are you reading???

I've seen anything from 13 to 8 haven't seen it as close as that though!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on December 11, 2019, 09:44:28 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 10, 2019, 10:20:43 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 10, 2019, 09:31:20 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 10, 2019, 04:35:58 PM
Jesus Christ, Kuenssberg tweeted what she had heard. Just like Peston and even f**king Tom Newton Dunn. This is how Twitter works. They didn't report it as fact and when it was apparent that it wasn't true, I know Kuenssberg at least apologised.

Her job is not to be an investigative reporter and tell you the truth. Her job is to report on the politics going on around everything. The conservatives making false claims about someone getting punched is clearly politics.

Going back to your example of the weather, if it's raining outside, her job isn't to tell you it's raining outside. Her job is to tell you that there's a clampet who claims it isn't.

If people want live, rolling fast-paced Twitter style news they have to accept that tweets on live, unfolding events won't have had the benefit of editorial scrutiny. That's just simply the world we live in, not evidence of a pro Tory media conspiracy.

Jesus Christ, have people really been conditioned into accepting this? If it's not raining outside, a politicians says it is raining outside, a journalist's job is not to just tell you what the politician said. It's their job to look out the f***ing window and let you know if they're telling the truth or not.

That false, clichéd analysis was attempted earlier. Try harder.

No. I won't try harder. It is absolutely correct.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on December 11, 2019, 10:11:22 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 11, 2019, 09:41:58 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on December 11, 2019, 09:32:10 PM
Big gains for labour in latest poll just released up 3% points (only 5% behind Tories which is smallest gap since election was called) hung parliament is on the cards but who knows at this stage the polls bouncing all over the place.

What polls are you reading???

I've seen anything from 13 to 8 haven't seen it as close as that though!

Savanna Comres

Tories 41% -
Labour 36% +3%
LibDem 12% -
Other 11% -3%

Released in the last hour.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Ambrose on December 11, 2019, 10:18:34 PM
How do we see things going in the six counties tomorrow?

I think the SDLP will retake Foyle, they should comfortably take south Belfast. I'm hoping SF take north Belfast, but it will be tight. Can't see any other upsets. Naomi Long has too much ground to make up on the DUPUDA in east Belfast. The DUP will take north Down.

Could Boris be in trouble in his 'home' constituency of Uxbridge?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RedHand88 on December 11, 2019, 10:42:23 PM
Quote from: Ambrose on December 11, 2019, 10:18:34 PM
How do we see things going in the six counties tomorrow?

I think the SDLP will retake Foyle, they should comfortably take south Belfast. I'm hoping SF take north Belfast, but it will be tight. Can't see any other upsets. Naomi Long has too much ground to make up on the DUPUDA in east Belfast. The DUP will take north Down.

Could Boris be in trouble in his 'home' constituency of Uxbridge?

Agree with all of that. God damn north belfast is going to be a squeaker though.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: bennydorano on December 11, 2019, 11:22:37 PM
Read an article today, think it was in the Irish News(might have been Twitter) stating roughly 3,500 - 4,000 voters added to the register in NB - vast majority supposedly of the Unionist persuasion, Shinners may have missed a trick by the looks of it. Something similar in SB but to a lesser extent and not expected to help Pengelley. See the Alliance party trying to claim EB & North Down are neck and neck - would doubt that very much.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 11, 2019, 11:32:54 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 11, 2019, 08:11:59 PM
Can't see Finucane winning NB they've gone all out with there with voter registration drives and townhall meetings to make sure it doesn't slip. Pissing on the street while very minor wouldn't have helped!!

I think the Torys get their majority by 20 or so then who the f**k knows what happens then??!!

Christ John has a piss in the street and Sammy can run about buck naked and get elected every time!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Walter Cronc on December 11, 2019, 11:41:17 PM
Is NB a changing demographic in the same way South Belfast is? Or has it always been pretty much 50/50? Does the rise of clubs like St Endas indicate more nationalists moving into the area?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Owenmoresider on December 11, 2019, 11:45:02 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on December 11, 2019, 10:11:22 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 11, 2019, 09:41:58 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on December 11, 2019, 09:32:10 PM
Big gains for labour in latest poll just released up 3% points (only 5% behind Tories which is smallest gap since election was called) hung parliament is on the cards but who knows at this stage the polls bouncing all over the place.

What polls are you reading???

I've seen anything from 13 to 8 haven't seen it as close as that though!

Savanna Comres

Tories 41% -
Labour 36% +3%
LibDem 12% -
Other 11% -3%

Released in the last hour.
Funny you ignored the other polls released this evening too, guess they don't quite suit your narrative.

CON: 45% (+1)
LAB: 35% (+2)
LDEM: 10% (-1)
BREX: 3% (-)
GRN: 3% (+1)
via
@DeltaPollUK
, 09 -11 Dec
Chgs. w/ 07 Dec

CON: 44% (-)
LAB: 32% (-)
LDEM: 13% (-2)
BREX: 3% (+1)
GRN: 3% (-)
via
@KantarTNS
, 09 -11 Dec
Chgs. w/ 02 Dec

CON: 43% (-)
LAB: 34% (-)
LDEM: 11% (-2)
BREX: 4% (+1)
GRN: 3% (+1)
via
@PanelbaseMD
, 10 - 11 Dec
Chgs. w/ 06 Dec

CON: 41% (-)
LAB: 32% (-)
LDEM: 14% (-)
GRN: 4% (-)
BREX: 3% (-1)
via
@BMGResearch
, 06 - 11 Dec
Chgs. w/ 06 Dec

CON: 45% (-1)
LAB: 33% (+2)
LDEM: 12% (-1)
via
@OpiniumResearch
, 10 - 11 Dec
Chgs. w/ 06 Dec
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Ambrose on December 11, 2019, 11:54:33 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 11, 2019, 11:22:37 PM
Read an article today, think it was in the Irish News(might have been Twitter) stating roughly 3,500 - 4,000 voters added to the register in NB - vast majority supposedly of the Unionist persuasion, Shinners may have missed a trick by the looks of it. Something similar in SB but to a lesser extent and not expected to help Pengelley. See the Alliance party trying to claim EB & North Down are neck and neck - would doubt that very much.

A VAST majority of new applicants to the electoral register in key Belfast battleground constituencies are believed to be from mainly unionist areas.

More than 1.25m people in Northern Ireland are eligible to vote in Thursday's general election, according to the Electoral Office.

The total eligible electorate is 1,293,971, an increase of 51,273 since the 2017 Westminster election.

While there has been a rise in the number of eligible voters in each of the 18 constituencies, the largest number of new voters are in areas where there is likely to be a close contest between rival parties.

There are 4,022 extra voters on the register in Foyle, where Sinn Féin is coming under pressure from the SDLP to hold onto the seat.

Sinn Féin won the long standing SDLP seat by just 169 votes in 2017.

The battle between the two parties is expected to be one of the closest of tomorrow's poll.

The battle between John Finucane and DUP deputy leader Nigel Dodds in North Belfast has proven controversial, with the SDLP standing aside to maximise Sinn Féin's vote.

In one of the most toxic contests, controversial banners attacking the Sinn Féin candidate and his family have appeared across the city.

An extra 3,976 voters have joined the electoral register in North Belfast. Sources have indicated that the majority of those have been in traditionally unionist areas.

Voter registrations had been taking place to coincide with meetings organised by loyalists, angry at a potential sea border if Boris Johnson gets his Brexit deal through Westminster.

In South Belfast an additional 3,879 have joined the electoral register since 2017.

More than half of those are believed to be from traditionally loyalist areas of the constituency, where the previous DUP MP Emma Little Pengelly is expected to lose her seat to the SDLP's Claire Hanna.

The smallest growth was in North Antrim, where 1,477 were added to the register.

Last month the Electoral Office said it had processed more than 235,000 applications from members of the public seeking to be placed on the register since the start of 2019.

The office said it had received 72,500 applications in the past three weeks alone.

The disparity in the figures, is partly attributed to the 34,000 people who could vote in the European election but are not eligible to vote in the Westminster contest.

Citizens of other EU countries living in the United Kingdom can vote in council, assembly and EU elections but not in General Elections.

Other factors may include duplicate applications from people unaware they were already on the register.

http://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2019/12/11/news/record-numbers-sign-up-for-electoral-register-1786915/
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 12, 2019, 05:49:49 AM
Quote from: Owenmoresider on December 11, 2019, 11:45:02 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on December 11, 2019, 10:11:22 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 11, 2019, 09:41:58 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on December 11, 2019, 09:32:10 PM
Big gains for labour in latest poll just released up 3% points (only 5% behind Tories which is smallest gap since election was called) hung parliament is on the cards but who knows at this stage the polls bouncing all over the place.

What polls are you reading???

I've seen anything from 13 to 8 haven't seen it as close as that though!

Savanna Comres

Tories 41% -
Labour 36% +3%
LibDem 12% -
Other 11% -3%

Released in the last hour.
Funny you ignored the other polls released this evening too, guess they don't quite suit your narrative.

CON: 45% (+1)
LAB: 35% (+2)
LDEM: 10% (-1)
BREX: 3% (-)
GRN: 3% (+1)
via
@DeltaPollUK
, 09 -11 Dec
Chgs. w/ 07 Dec

CON: 44% (-)
LAB: 32% (-)
LDEM: 13% (-2)
BREX: 3% (+1)
GRN: 3% (-)
via
@KantarTNS
, 09 -11 Dec
Chgs. w/ 02 Dec

CON: 43% (-)
LAB: 34% (-)
LDEM: 11% (-2)
BREX: 4% (+1)
GRN: 3% (+1)
via
@PanelbaseMD
, 10 - 11 Dec
Chgs. w/ 06 Dec

CON: 41% (-)
LAB: 32% (-)
LDEM: 14% (-)
GRN: 4% (-)
BREX: 3% (-1)
via
@BMGResearch
, 06 - 11 Dec
Chgs. w/ 06 Dec

CON: 45% (-1)
LAB: 33% (+2)
LDEM: 12% (-1)
via
@OpiniumResearch
, 10 - 11 Dec
Chgs. w/ 06 Dec

The Daily Telegraph is focusing on the Savanta poll
I think the Tories are worried about complacency
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 12, 2019, 06:44:56 AM
https://twitter.com/suey2y/status/1204698240941199360/photo/1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjUWX6S8iYU
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Franko on December 12, 2019, 07:11:13 AM
Christ would you look a that.  Another BBC 'mistake'.  But this time pro-Corbyn!*

https://twitter.com/socialistbloke/status/1204827659013898241

*Actually no, it's BoJo again.  ::)
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: magpie seanie on December 12, 2019, 09:01:29 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on December 11, 2019, 09:12:28 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on December 11, 2019, 09:07:06 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 11, 2019, 08:12:48 PM
PS. If Keir Starmer is leading that election Labour win by a landslide!!
I just don't buy that. Around half the UK want Brexit to happen. Those people are not going to vote for a party that doesn't endorse brexit, no matter how charismatic the party leader is. This is a single issue election for the vast majority of UK voters.

The problem for Labour is they have went to the hard left under Corbyn/McDonnell, people left of centre who have been Labour all their lives are told to f**k off to the Tories if any dissent was raised about the direction of the party and Labour expect those people to hold their nose and still vote Labour ?

It's absolutely nuts or a deliberate fabrication to suggest that Labour's policies and manifesto are "hard left". They are modern social democratic proposals the like of which you see in many European countries and more modest than in several - like the Scandanavian coutries where people seem to quite satisfied with their. Proposed Corporation Tax lower than France and Germany. Jeremy would want to get out his Karl Marx books again as if that's what he's supposed to be trying to achieve he's making a poor attempt at it!!!! The levels of accepted ridiculousness are unsurpassed. Did you hear all rich people are smarter and harder workers that the rest and they'll all leave with their money if they don't get their way? Yep. Shocking.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: TheOptimist on December 12, 2019, 09:26:29 AM
I see the Alliance and Lucid Talk had a public spat last night!

I'm in Foyle and am still undecided. The only way I would want Eastwood in is if it is a hung parliament that SDLP may play some small influence in, but it would pain me to lend him my vote, especially if the conservatives win a majority!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 12, 2019, 09:28:52 AM
Quote from: TheOptimist on December 12, 2019, 09:26:29 AM
I see the Alliance and Lucid Talk had a public spat last night!

I'm in Foyle and am still undecided. The only way I would want Eastwood in is if it is a hung parliament that SDLP may play some small influence in, but it would pain me to lend him my vote, especially if the conservatives win a majority!

What bad thing would he do with your vote?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 12, 2019, 09:33:49 AM
Quote from: HiMucker on December 11, 2019, 09:07:06 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 11, 2019, 08:12:48 PM
PS. If Keir Starmer is leading that election Labour win by a landslide!!
I just don't buy that. Around half the UK want Brexit to happen. Those people are not going to vote for a party that doesn't endorse brexit, no matter how charismatic the party leader is. This is a single issue election for the vast majority of UK voters.

I ask this question time and time again. Nobody here answers it or defends their own point.

Posters are quite prepared to say a different Labour leader would clean up but either fail to name the alternative leader or give a name that won't wash in the Leave north.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 12, 2019, 09:40:41 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on December 11, 2019, 09:12:28 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on December 11, 2019, 09:07:06 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 11, 2019, 08:12:48 PM
PS. If Keir Starmer is leading that election Labour win by a landslide!!
I just don't buy that. Around half the UK want Brexit to happen. Those people are not going to vote for a party that doesn't endorse brexit, no matter how charismatic the party leader is. This is a single issue election for the vast majority of UK voters.

The problem for Labour is they have went to the hard left under Corbyn/McDonnell, people left of centre who have been Labour all their lives are told to f**k off to the Tories if any dissent was raised about the direction of the party and Labour expect those people to hold their nose and still vote Labour ?

Hard left? We have "centre-right" parties and coalitions in major economies with higher levels of taxation and public ownership. What sort of benchmarking have you done on this "hard left" measure?

Who was told to "f**k off to the Tories? By whom? And when? Or have you made this up??

Who has been expelled for dissent? Anybody??

Your post reads like the outpouring of a deranged mind thats only talent is to regurgitate on demand bile it absorbs from partial media. I could be wrong
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 12, 2019, 09:42:37 AM
Quote from: Ambrose on December 11, 2019, 10:18:34 PM
How do we see things going in the six counties tomorrow?

I think the SDLP will retake Foyle, they should comfortably take south Belfast. I'm hoping SF take north Belfast, but it will be tight. Can't see any other upsets. Naomi Long has too much ground to make up on the DUPUDA in east Belfast. The DUP will take north Down.

Could Boris be in trouble in his 'home' constituency of Uxbridge?

Only a very coordinated tactical voting programme could unseat Boris. Possible but unlikely
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on December 12, 2019, 09:49:28 AM
Boris will be glad this election is over one way or another as that poor sod has spent so much time in factories and warehouses they were starting to offer him zero hours contracts...

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Maroon Manc on December 12, 2019, 09:49:58 AM
The Tories have drifted on betfair from 1.39 to 1.51 in the last half hour
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 12, 2019, 10:27:08 AM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/11/last-chance-save-brexit-even-democracy/

"To listen to Labour is to imagine we live in a dirt-poor, intolerant country run by a plutocracy intent on doing down the masses and closing the NHS."
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: mouview on December 12, 2019, 10:32:18 AM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on December 12, 2019, 09:49:58 AM
The Tories have drifted on betfair from 1.39 to 1.51 in the last half hour

Whas dat mean?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: TheOptimist on December 12, 2019, 10:32:41 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 12, 2019, 09:28:52 AM
Quote from: TheOptimist on December 12, 2019, 09:26:29 AM
I see the Alliance and Lucid Talk had a public spat last night!

I'm in Foyle and am still undecided. The only way I would want Eastwood in is if it is a hung parliament that SDLP may play some small influence in, but it would pain me to lend him my vote, especially if the conservatives win a majority!

What bad thing would he do with your vote?

He might not deliver on what he has promised. It could all be over at 10 o'clock tonight if the tories get a majority, yet he will be sitting on a comfy salary plus expenses for 5 years not delivering what he has promised. A strong Sinn Fein vote working outside Westminister could be more effective than SDLP and irrelevant votes in Westminister.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Smokin Joe on December 12, 2019, 10:51:43 AM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on December 12, 2019, 09:49:58 AM
The Tories have drifted on betfair from 1.39 to 1.51 in the last half hour

For what?  Tory Majority?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: manfromdelmonte on December 12, 2019, 10:59:25 AM
Quote from: seafoid on December 12, 2019, 10:27:08 AM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/11/last-chance-save-brexit-even-democracy/

"To listen to Labour is to imagine we live in a dirt-poor, intolerant country run by a plutocracy intent on doing down the masses and closing the NHS."
they don't do irony then?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: manfromdelmonte on December 12, 2019, 11:00:09 AM
Quote from: TheOptimist on December 12, 2019, 10:32:41 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 12, 2019, 09:28:52 AM
Quote from: TheOptimist on December 12, 2019, 09:26:29 AM
I see the Alliance and Lucid Talk had a public spat last night!

I'm in Foyle and am still undecided. The only way I would want Eastwood in is if it is a hung parliament that SDLP may play some small influence in, but it would pain me to lend him my vote, especially if the conservatives win a majority!

What bad thing would he do with your vote?

He might not deliver on what he has promised. It could all be over at 10 o'clock tonight if the tories get a majority, yet he will be sitting on a comfy salary plus expenses for 5 years not delivering what he has promised. A strong Sinn Fein vote working outside Westminister could be more effective than SDLP and irrelevant votes in Westminister.
a sinn fein vote, is a wasted vote for Westminster
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: TheOptimist on December 12, 2019, 11:15:34 AM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on December 12, 2019, 11:00:09 AM
Quote from: TheOptimist on December 12, 2019, 10:32:41 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 12, 2019, 09:28:52 AM
Quote from: TheOptimist on December 12, 2019, 09:26:29 AM
I see the Alliance and Lucid Talk had a public spat last night!

I'm in Foyle and am still undecided. The only way I would want Eastwood in is if it is a hung parliament that SDLP may play some small influence in, but it would pain me to lend him my vote, especially if the conservatives win a majority!

What bad thing would he do with your vote?

He might not deliver on what he has promised. It could all be over at 10 o'clock tonight if the tories get a majority, yet he will be sitting on a comfy salary plus expenses for 5 years not delivering what he has promised. A strong Sinn Fein vote working outside Westminister could be more effective than SDLP and irrelevant votes in Westminister.
a sinn fein vote, is a wasted vote for Westminster

Not sure I agree. And for all the SDLP years in Westminister, Derry is still an economic backwater!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: magpie seanie on December 12, 2019, 11:48:54 AM
Quote from: TheOptimist on December 12, 2019, 11:15:34 AM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on December 12, 2019, 11:00:09 AM
Quote from: TheOptimist on December 12, 2019, 10:32:41 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 12, 2019, 09:28:52 AM
Quote from: TheOptimist on December 12, 2019, 09:26:29 AM
I see the Alliance and Lucid Talk had a public spat last night!

I'm in Foyle and am still undecided. The only way I would want Eastwood in is if it is a hung parliament that SDLP may play some small influence in, but it would pain me to lend him my vote, especially if the conservatives win a majority!

What bad thing would he do with your vote?

He might not deliver on what he has promised. It could all be over at 10 o'clock tonight if the tories get a majority, yet he will be sitting on a comfy salary plus expenses for 5 years not delivering what he has promised. A strong Sinn Fein vote working outside Westminister could be more effective than SDLP and irrelevant votes in Westminister.
a sinn fein vote, is a wasted vote for Westminster

Not sure I agree. And for all the SDLP years in Westminister, Derry is still an economic backwater!

What a false equivalence if there was ever on! I'm pretty sure the SDLP are well down the list of people to blame for Derry's woes. There are many major reasons that had SFA to do with the SDLP and everyone knows it. It could be argued things would be worse but for them.

Honestly, if you're against Brexit, voting SF in a Westminster election is pointless if there's another nationalist remain option with a better chance of taking the seat. Unionists rarely make tactical voting errors like nationalist do.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: TheOptimist on December 12, 2019, 11:56:06 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on December 12, 2019, 11:48:54 AM
Quote from: TheOptimist on December 12, 2019, 11:15:34 AM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on December 12, 2019, 11:00:09 AM
Quote from: TheOptimist on December 12, 2019, 10:32:41 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 12, 2019, 09:28:52 AM
Quote from: TheOptimist on December 12, 2019, 09:26:29 AM
I see the Alliance and Lucid Talk had a public spat last night!

I'm in Foyle and am still undecided. The only way I would want Eastwood in is if it is a hung parliament that SDLP may play some small influence in, but it would pain me to lend him my vote, especially if the conservatives win a majority!

What bad thing would he do with your vote?

He might not deliver on what he has promised. It could all be over at 10 o'clock tonight if the tories get a majority, yet he will be sitting on a comfy salary plus expenses for 5 years not delivering what he has promised. A strong Sinn Fein vote working outside Westminister could be more effective than SDLP and irrelevant votes in Westminister.
a sinn fein vote, is a wasted vote for Westminster

Not sure I agree. And for all the SDLP years in Westminister, Derry is still an economic backwater!

What a false equivalence if there was ever on! I'm pretty sure the SDLP are well down the list of people to blame for Derry's woes. There are many major reasons that had SFA to do with the SDLP and everyone knows it. It could be argued things would be worse but for them.

Honestly, if you're against Brexit, voting SF in a Westminster election is pointless if there's another nationalist remain option with a better chance of taking the seat. Unionists rarely make tactical voting errors like nationalist do.

I don't doubt it, but it is not the way it is painted listening to Colum who wants me to vote for him so he can "stop Boris and stop brexit". SDLP are all over the place and have been for a long time, they don't know where they stand on a number of issues and are running this campaign aimed at voters like me based on the single promise they can make a big difference by taking their seat. I know there is a slim possibility this may be the case but other than that I wouldn't be considering them.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Maroon Manc on December 12, 2019, 12:09:36 PM
Quote from: Smokin Joe on December 12, 2019, 10:51:43 AM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on December 12, 2019, 09:49:58 AM
The Tories have drifted on betfair from 1.39 to 1.51 in the last half hour

For what?  Tory Majority?

Yes, back into 1.34 though.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 12, 2019, 12:10:01 PM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/11/last-chance-save-brexit-even-democracy/

10 Seats to Watch

Ashfield
This Nottinghamshire former mining seat has never voted for a Conservative in a general election. However, following a sharp swing to the Conservatives locally, Labour are defending a majority of just 441 seats, while the sitting Labour MP, Gloria De Piero, is standing down. Labour need to hang on to this strongly pro-Leave seat if they are to have much chance of denying Boris Johnson a majority.

Wrexham
The seat is at the centre of a clutch of crucial marginal seats in the north east of Wales. Although the Conservatives have never won here, it has often been closely contested. The swing to the Tories in 2017 was much smaller than in some other pro-Leave seats, so the constituency could prove a useful bellwether as to whether the Tory lead in the polls is being realised. Local polling suggested the prospects for the party are favourable.

Great Grimsby
This seat may have voted Labour ever since 1945, but it is a hive of Euroscepticism and swung towards the Conservatives in 2017. If the party picks it up this time, the Prime Minister could well be heading for a secure majority. The local Labour MP, Melanie Onn, will be hoping that her decision to vote in favour of Boris Johnson's deal will enable her to hang on to her seat despite the pro-Leave views of most of her constituents.

Workington
The constituency has lent his name to the most widely quoted polling stereotype of this election, 'Workington man' – a traditional working-class older Labour voter who disagrees with his party's stance on immigration and Brexit. Winning the seat would be particularly sweet for Boris Johnson. However, it has never returned a Conservative MP at a general election, while, at nearly 5 per cent, the swing required here for a Tory victory is towards the higher end of what the party is expected to achieve.

Battersea
Unlike many of the marginal Labour marginals in Boris Johnson's sights, this seat on the south side of the Thames voted heavily for Remain, and was captured by Labour from the Conservatives in 2017. If the Conservatives fail to reverse that loss, it could be a sign that whatever advances the party is making in pro-Leave areas, it could be suffering more modest performances in pro-Remain ones that might yet undermine hopes of a Tory majority.

Hastings & Rye
The news on election night in 2017 that the former Home Secretary, Amber Rudd, was struggling to defend this south coast seat was an early indication that Theresa May was unlikely to secure the big majority for which she hoped. In the event Ms Rudd narrowly hung on but has since fallen out with her party and is standing down. If the Tories end up struggling to hold the seat a second time around, it could be a sign that the election is not turning out as the Prime Minister hopes after all.

St Ives
This seat on the toe of Cornwall ought to be a plum target for the Liberal Democrats. The former Liberal Democrat MP, Andrew George, lost last time to his Conservative opponent by just 312 votes and is standing once again. But the seat voted Leave in 2016, while all the increase in Liberal Democrat support since the last election has occurred among Remain voters. It will be a key test of whether the Liberal Democrats are enjoying any kind of revival in the 'Celtic fringe'.

Stirling
Stephen Kerr was one of the dozen newly-elected Tory MPs returned in the wake of a Conservative revival two years ago north of the border. However, his majority of just 148 over the SNP is highly vulnerable to both any downturn in his own party's fortunes or any increase in the nationalist vote. Success for the Tories here would suggest that the Scots Tory revival has begun to put down roots.

Glasgow North East
One of the most deprived seats in the UK, the Labour vote here used to be weighed rather than counted. But in 2015 it fell to the SNP, along with almost every other constituency in Scotland. However, it was one of a half dozen seats that Labour managed to win back last time, though with a majority of just 242 the party still has the SNP breathing down its neck. Defeat for Labour here would signify that the party is still at square one in its attempts to reconnect with its former fiefdoms north of the border.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RedHand88 on December 12, 2019, 12:52:12 PM
Quote from: mouview on December 12, 2019, 10:32:18 AM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on December 12, 2019, 09:49:58 AM
The Tories have drifted on betfair from 1.39 to 1.51 in the last half hour

Whas dat mean?

Means it's less likely the Tories win, though the odds follow the betting so it could mean more people are getting on hung parliament and not actually a voting trend.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RedHand88 on December 12, 2019, 12:53:19 PM
When Colum and Claire go to westminister and don't stop Brexit for the north will westminister be exposed as a myth for nationalists?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Applesisapples on December 12, 2019, 01:06:55 PM
Nationalism has a problem and even though demographics are trending towards a nationalist majority neither SF nor the SDLP are making ground. Alliance seem to be mopping ups that younger vote, so a UI is fading. Michelle O'Neill is a vote loser, talks too fast and is incoherent at best. O'Dowd would have been a better bet. The SDLP on the other hand despite the obvious ability of Eastwood can't stop coming across as Uncle Tom's.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on December 12, 2019, 01:11:05 PM
I went out this morning & voted, for the first time in 20 years. Hanna got my vote, the only reason being that I want to see the bake on Little early tomorrow morning, when she gets some manners put on her.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: manfromdelmonte on December 12, 2019, 01:17:00 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 12, 2019, 12:10:01 PM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/11/last-chance-save-brexit-even-democracy/

10 Seats to Watch

Ashfield
This Nottinghamshire former mining seat has never voted for a Conservative in a general election. However, following a sharp swing to the Conservatives locally, Labour are defending a majority of just 441 seats, while the sitting Labour MP, Gloria De Piero, is standing down. Labour need to hang on to this strongly pro-Leave seat if they are to have much chance of denying Boris Johnson a majority.

Wrexham
The seat is at the centre of a clutch of crucial marginal seats in the north east of Wales. Although the Conservatives have never won here, it has often been closely contested. The swing to the Tories in 2017 was much smaller than in some other pro-Leave seats, so the constituency could prove a useful bellwether as to whether the Tory lead in the polls is being realised. Local polling suggested the prospects for the party are favourable.

Great Grimsby
This seat may have voted Labour ever since 1945, but it is a hive of Euroscepticism and swung towards the Conservatives in 2017. If the party picks it up this time, the Prime Minister could well be heading for a secure majority. The local Labour MP, Melanie Onn, will be hoping that her decision to vote in favour of Boris Johnson's deal will enable her to hang on to her seat despite the pro-Leave views of most of her constituents.

Workington
The constituency has lent his name to the most widely quoted polling stereotype of this election, 'Workington man' – a traditional working-class older Labour voter who disagrees with his party's stance on immigration and Brexit. Winning the seat would be particularly sweet for Boris Johnson. However, it has never returned a Conservative MP at a general election, while, at nearly 5 per cent, the swing required here for a Tory victory is towards the higher end of what the party is expected to achieve.

Battersea
Unlike many of the marginal Labour marginals in Boris Johnson's sights, this seat on the south side of the Thames voted heavily for Remain, and was captured by Labour from the Conservatives in 2017. If the Conservatives fail to reverse that loss, it could be a sign that whatever advances the party is making in pro-Leave areas, it could be suffering more modest performances in pro-Remain ones that might yet undermine hopes of a Tory majority.

Hastings & Rye
The news on election night in 2017 that the former Home Secretary, Amber Rudd, was struggling to defend this south coast seat was an early indication that Theresa May was unlikely to secure the big majority for which she hoped. In the event Ms Rudd narrowly hung on but has since fallen out with her party and is standing down. If the Tories end up struggling to hold the seat a second time around, it could be a sign that the election is not turning out as the Prime Minister hopes after all.

St Ives
This seat on the toe of Cornwall ought to be a plum target for the Liberal Democrats. The former Liberal Democrat MP, Andrew George, lost last time to his Conservative opponent by just 312 votes and is standing once again. But the seat voted Leave in 2016, while all the increase in Liberal Democrat support since the last election has occurred among Remain voters. It will be a key test of whether the Liberal Democrats are enjoying any kind of revival in the 'Celtic fringe'.

Stirling
Stephen Kerr was one of the dozen newly-elected Tory MPs returned in the wake of a Conservative revival two years ago north of the border. However, his majority of just 148 over the SNP is highly vulnerable to both any downturn in his own party's fortunes or any increase in the nationalist vote. Success for the Tories here would suggest that the Scots Tory revival has begun to put down roots.

Glasgow North East
One of the most deprived seats in the UK, the Labour vote here used to be weighed rather than counted. But in 2015 it fell to the SNP, along with almost every other constituency in Scotland. However, it was one of a half dozen seats that Labour managed to win back last time, though with a majority of just 242 the party still has the SNP breathing down its neck. Defeat for Labour here would signify that the party is still at square one in its attempts to reconnect with its former fiefdoms north of the border.
doesn't mention a lot of the constituencies the Tories are going to lose

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on December 12, 2019, 01:17:04 PM
Quote from: mouview on December 12, 2019, 10:32:18 AM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on December 12, 2019, 09:49:58 AM
The Tories have drifted on betfair from 1.39 to 1.51 in the last half hour

Whas dat mean?

They scored 12 points in the second half. Six from frees.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 12, 2019, 01:24:09 PM
Quote from: TheOptimist on December 12, 2019, 10:32:41 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 12, 2019, 09:28:52 AM
Quote from: TheOptimist on December 12, 2019, 09:26:29 AM
I see the Alliance and Lucid Talk had a public spat last night!

I'm in Foyle and am still undecided. The only way I would want Eastwood in is if it is a hung parliament that SDLP may play some small influence in, but it would pain me to lend him my vote, especially if the conservatives win a majority!

What bad thing would he do with your vote?

He might not deliver on what he has promised. It could all be over at 10 o'clock tonight if the tories get a majority, yet he will be sitting on a comfy salary plus expenses for 5 years not delivering what he has promised. A strong Sinn Fein vote working outside Westminister could be more effective than SDLP and irrelevant votes in Westminister.

I know this will read like a playing the man but the conclusions below are inescapable.

Your post is one of the most staggering exhibitions of outright stupidity ever witnessed on this forum.

You propose not voting for candidate A on the basis that votes elsewhere in a democracy might not leave candidate A in a position to deliver on their manifesto. So instead you contemplate voting for someone who doesn't promise to do anything and has an established track record (impressive for one so young) in doing nothing.

Can you outline the achievements of a strong Sinn Fein mandate operating outside Westminster?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 12, 2019, 01:33:00 PM
Quote from: TheOptimist on December 12, 2019, 11:56:06 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on December 12, 2019, 11:48:54 AM
Quote from: TheOptimist on December 12, 2019, 11:15:34 AM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on December 12, 2019, 11:00:09 AM
Quote from: TheOptimist on December 12, 2019, 10:32:41 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 12, 2019, 09:28:52 AM
Quote from: TheOptimist on December 12, 2019, 09:26:29 AM
I see the Alliance and Lucid Talk had a public spat last night!

I'm in Foyle and am still undecided. The only way I would want Eastwood in is if it is a hung parliament that SDLP may play some small influence in, but it would pain me to lend him my vote, especially if the conservatives win a majority!

What bad thing would he do with your vote?

He might not deliver on what he has promised. It could all be over at 10 o'clock tonight if the tories get a majority, yet he will be sitting on a comfy salary plus expenses for 5 years not delivering what he has promised. A strong Sinn Fein vote working outside Westminister could be more effective than SDLP and irrelevant votes in Westminister.
a sinn fein vote, is a wasted vote for Westminster

Not sure I agree. And for all the SDLP years in Westminister, Derry is still an economic backwater!

What a false equivalence if there was ever on! I'm pretty sure the SDLP are well down the list of people to blame for Derry's woes. There are many major reasons that had SFA to do with the SDLP and everyone knows it. It could be argued things would be worse but for them.

Honestly, if you're against Brexit, voting SF in a Westminster election is pointless if there's another nationalist remain option with a better chance of taking the seat. Unionists rarely make tactical voting errors like nationalist do.

I don't doubt it, but it is not the way it is painted listening to Colum who wants me to vote for him so he can "stop Boris and stop brexit". SDLP are all over the place and have been for a long time, they don't know where they stand on a number of issues and are running this campaign aimed at voters like me based on the single promise they can make a big difference by taking their seat. I know there is a slim possibility this may be the case but other than that I wouldn't be considering them.

What difference will SF make?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on December 12, 2019, 01:46:43 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on December 12, 2019, 01:06:55 PM
Nationalism has a problem and even though demographics are trending towards a nationalist majority neither SF nor the SDLP are making ground. Alliance seem to be mopping ups that younger vote, so a UI is fading. Michelle O'Neill is a vote loser, talks too fast and is incoherent at best. O'Dowd would have been a better bet. The SDLP on the other hand despite the obvious ability of Eastwood can't stop coming across as Uncle Tom's.

Slightly premature, lets wait until the votes have been counted. My gut instinct is that Unionists will come out in greater numbers than nationalists since they have made it all about the union and the threat of a border poll. Short term gain once again at the expense of any credible strategic vision from unionists.

Nationalism might not make any gains in terms of seats won or votes recorded but it is a much more positive, outward looking & progressive form of politics than unionism can ever be. The question Unionism will still have to answer the day after the election is, what next?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on December 12, 2019, 02:06:20 PM
You just have to mindful not to fall into the trap.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: HiMucker on December 12, 2019, 02:06:56 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on December 12, 2019, 01:46:43 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on December 12, 2019, 01:06:55 PM
Nationalism has a problem and even though demographics are trending towards a nationalist majority neither SF nor the SDLP are making ground. Alliance seem to be mopping ups that younger vote, so a UI is fading. Michelle O'Neill is a vote loser, talks too fast and is incoherent at best. O'Dowd would have been a better bet. The SDLP on the other hand despite the obvious ability of Eastwood can't stop coming across as Uncle Tom's.

Slightly premature, lets wait until the votes have been counted. My gut instinct is that Unionists will come out in greater numbers than nationalists since they have made it all about the union and the threat of a border poll. Short term gain once again at the expense of any credible strategic vision from unionists.

Nationalism might not make any gains in terms of seats won or votes recorded but it is a much more positive, outward looking & progressive form of politics than unionism can ever be. The question Unionism will still have to answer the day after the election is, what next?
That's a very good point. It might be a bit depressing not seeing the DUP take a hit, but they cant hold back the tide forever.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 12, 2019, 02:51:32 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on December 12, 2019, 02:06:56 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on December 12, 2019, 01:46:43 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on December 12, 2019, 01:06:55 PM
Nationalism has a problem and even though demographics are trending towards a nationalist majority neither SF nor the SDLP are making ground. Alliance seem to be mopping ups that younger vote, so a UI is fading. Michelle O'Neill is a vote loser, talks too fast and is incoherent at best. O'Dowd would have been a better bet. The SDLP on the other hand despite the obvious ability of Eastwood can't stop coming across as Uncle Tom's.

Slightly premature, lets wait until the votes have been counted. My gut instinct is that Unionists will come out in greater numbers than nationalists since they have made it all about the union and the threat of a border poll. Short term gain once again at the expense of any credible strategic vision from unionists.

Nationalism might not make any gains in terms of seats won or votes recorded but it is a much more positive, outward looking & progressive form of politics than unionism can ever be. The question Unionism will still have to answer the day after the election is, what next?
That's a very good point. It might be a bit depressing not seeing the DUP take a hit, but they cant hold back the tide forever.
They may hang on to North Belfast this time but
in the medium term they will lose it
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on December 12, 2019, 02:58:15 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on December 12, 2019, 01:06:55 PM
Nationalism has a problem and even though demographics are trending towards a nationalist majority neither SF nor the SDLP are making ground. Alliance seem to be mopping ups that younger vote, so a UI is fading. Michelle O'Neill is a vote loser, talks too fast and is incoherent at best. O'Dowd would have been a better bet. The SDLP on the other hand despite the obvious ability of Eastwood can't stop coming across as Uncle Tom's.

Wouldn't accept that at all. If a border poll is to be won it won't be by SF votes, those are a given. It will be won by convincing the moderate Alliance types and a UI is far from fading in my opinion, in fact it has never been higher on the agenda than it is right now. SF might not like it it but if a UI is to be achieved more quickly then they cannot be seen to be taking sole ownership of the process, it will have to involve more moderates from nationalist civic society and the mainstream parties in the south. 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on December 12, 2019, 03:34:23 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on December 12, 2019, 02:58:15 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on December 12, 2019, 01:06:55 PM
Nationalism has a problem and even though demographics are trending towards a nationalist majority neither SF nor the SDLP are making ground. Alliance seem to be mopping ups that younger vote, so a UI is fading. Michelle O'Neill is a vote loser, talks too fast and is incoherent at best. O'Dowd would have been a better bet. The SDLP on the other hand despite the obvious ability of Eastwood can't stop coming across as Uncle Tom's.

Wouldn't accept that at all. If a border poll is to be won it won't be by SF votes, those are a given. It will be won by convincing the moderate Alliance types and a UI is far from fading in my opinion, in fact it has never been higher on the agenda than it is right now. SF might not like it it but if a UI is to be achieved more quickly then they cannot be seen to be taking sole ownership of the process, it will have to involve more moderates from nationalist civic society and the mainstream parties in the south.

A UI is still reliant on the DUP to drive those moderate types into voting for a united Ireland by denying any vestiges of Irishness in the wee six.

They can vote strategically for Alliance all they want in a Westminster election (barring SB and NB obviously  ;D  )
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 12, 2019, 03:39:34 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on December 12, 2019, 01:06:55 PM
Michelle O'Neill is a vote loser, talks too fast and is incoherent at best.

She doesn't talk - she whines & whinges.

Which is absolutely the wrong thing to project.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Keyser soze on December 12, 2019, 03:54:34 PM
Michelle looks like she is about to burst out laughing every time she speaks. Which of course isn't her fault as it's the way she looks but i find it mildly disconcerting and it distracts from what she is saying.

She is the polar opposite of Ben Lowry in this regard as he looks* like he is perpetually on the verge of tears.

* Ben may indeed be perpetually on the verge of bursting into tears such is his frustration and rage that unionism is no longer the unchallenged top dog. 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on December 12, 2019, 04:09:43 PM
The twitterati are ranting about a #youthquake

Not entirely convinced by twitter as it's very much an echo chamber.

Is there any truth in this?

Some reported (young) people being turned away from #PollingStations because they didn't have ID.

That is bollocks.

YOU DO NOT NEED ANYTHING TO VOTE, NO ID OR EVEN POLLING CARD.

Make sure you go and #Vote. #GE2019


I needed photo ID, is this just a Norn Iron thing?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: naka on December 12, 2019, 04:14:28 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on December 12, 2019, 01:06:55 PM
Nationalism has a problem and even though demographics are trending towards a nationalist majority neither SF nor the SDLP are making ground. Alliance seem to be mopping ups that younger vote, so a UI is fading. Michelle O'Neill is a vote loser, talks too fast and is incoherent at best. O'Dowd would have been a better bet. The SDLP on the other hand despite the obvious ability of Eastwood can't stop coming across as Uncle Tom's.
tbf conor murphy is the natural leader of the shinners but for whatever reason he has been sidelined.
they need him leading as he is articulate and can easily defend his position without resorting the rancour.
sdlp might do better than we think in this election purely as a wake up call to the shinners not to take their electorate or granted
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on December 12, 2019, 04:24:33 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on December 12, 2019, 04:09:43 PM
The twitterati are ranting about a #youthquake

Not entirely convinced by twitter as it's very much an echo chamber.

Is there any truth in this?

Some reported (young) people being turned away from #PollingStations because they didn't have ID.

That is bollocks.

YOU DO NOT NEED ANYTHING TO VOTE, NO ID OR EVEN POLLING CARD.

Make sure you go and #Vote. #GE2019


I needed photo ID, is this just a Norn Iron thing?

You need ID. End of story.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: bennydorano on December 12, 2019, 04:27:58 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on December 12, 2019, 04:09:43 PM
The twitterati are ranting about a #youthquake

Not entirely convinced by twitter as it's very much an echo chamber.

Is there any truth in this?

Some reported (young) people being turned away from #PollingStations because they didn't have ID.

That is bollocks.

YOU DO NOT NEED ANYTHING TO VOTE, NO ID OR EVEN POLLING CARD.

Make sure you go and #Vote. #GE2019


I needed photo ID, is this just a Norn Iron thing?
Photo id is an NI thing ok, heard gurns about the Tories planning to introduce it UK wide back in the Autumn. You actually don't need id to vote in GB, mad!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: bennydorano on December 12, 2019, 04:32:12 PM
Quote from: naka on December 12, 2019, 04:14:28 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on December 12, 2019, 01:06:55 PM
Nationalism has a problem and even though demographics are trending towards a nationalist majority neither SF nor the SDLP are making ground. Alliance seem to be mopping ups that younger vote, so a UI is fading. Michelle O'Neill is a vote loser, talks too fast and is incoherent at best. O'Dowd would have been a better bet. The SDLP on the other hand despite the obvious ability of Eastwood can't stop coming across as Uncle Tom's.
tbf conor murphy is the natural leader of the shinners but for whatever reason he has been sidelined.
they need him leading as he is articulate and can easily defend his position without resorting the rancour.
sdlp might do better than we think in this election purely as a wake up call to the shinners not to take their electorate or granted

He was found guilty of discrimination in 2012 in choosing a new Chair for NI Water while a minister. I remember thinking he was destined for the top myself, but i think he was starting to get sidelined a bit even before this.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on December 12, 2019, 04:44:51 PM
Quote from: naka on December 12, 2019, 04:14:28 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on December 12, 2019, 01:06:55 PM
Nationalism has a problem and even though demographics are trending towards a nationalist majority neither SF nor the SDLP are making ground. Alliance seem to be mopping ups that younger vote, so a UI is fading. Michelle O'Neill is a vote loser, talks too fast and is incoherent at best. O'Dowd would have been a better bet. The SDLP on the other hand despite the obvious ability of Eastwood can't stop coming across as Uncle Tom's.
tbf conor murphy is the natural leader of the shinners but for whatever reason he has been sidelined.
they need him leading as he is articulate and can easily defend his position without resorting the rancour.
sdlp might do better than we think in this election purely as a wake up call to the shinners not to take their electorate or granted

I certainly get the feeling the that SF in some constituencies will get a hit. If SF hold or even only lose one seat I think that can be called a very good election for them.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 12, 2019, 05:09:15 PM
This is the core Tory strategy

Win about 50 Labour seats in the North of England and the English Midlands

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/11/11/brexit-partys-decision-could-do-polls/
"The case for the Tories winning a landslide on Dec 12 is that Brexit trumps party loyalty as the main driver of voter motivation by a ratio of two to one, and that 63 per cent of constituencies voted to leave the EU in 2016."

But Labour have been fighting back

https://twitter.com/hatsandbackchat/status/1204771837055508485
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on December 12, 2019, 05:30:26 PM
Odds on a hung parliament shortening all the time today, could the polls have been wrong again.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 12, 2019, 05:49:44 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on December 12, 2019, 05:30:26 PM
Odds on a hung parliament shortening all the time today, could the polls have been wrong again.
The polls were manipulated again
A hung Parliament would reflect the status of the country 3 and a half years after the referendum.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: weareros on December 12, 2019, 06:00:28 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on December 12, 2019, 01:06:55 PM
Nationalism has a problem and even though demographics are trending towards a nationalist majority neither SF nor the SDLP are making ground. Alliance seem to be mopping ups that younger vote, so a UI is fading. Michelle O'Neill is a vote loser, talks too fast and is incoherent at best. O'Dowd would have been a better bet. The SDLP on the other hand despite the obvious ability of Eastwood can't stop coming across as Uncle Tom's.

Nationalism could do with a more centrist party, a FG type party if you will (the social democrat wing). The younger generations are not interested so much in Marxist ideology and the like. SF were every bit as anti EU as the Unionists. Need something a bit more modern, pro-business, pro-global, that reflects the modern world. Probably will never happen but there's an opportunity for nationalism to step into that space but it won't happen with SF and SDLP and now risk ceding it to Alliance.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: AZOffaly on December 12, 2019, 06:06:49 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 12, 2019, 04:27:58 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on December 12, 2019, 04:09:43 PM
The twitterati are ranting about a #youthquake

Not entirely convinced by twitter as it's very much an echo chamber.

Is there any truth in this?

Some reported (young) people being turned away from #PollingStations because they didn't have ID.

That is bollocks.

YOU DO NOT NEED ANYTHING TO VOTE, NO ID OR EVEN POLLING CARD.

Make sure you go and #Vote. #GE2019


I needed photo ID, is this just a Norn Iron thing?
Photo id is an NI thing ok, heard gurns about the Tories planning to introduce it UK wide back in the Autumn. You actually don't need id to vote in GB, mad!

You don't need ID to vote in GB? Surely you at least need a voting card? Jaysus if not, Sinn Fein could have won an overall majority in GB just running candidates and bringing buses around the country :)
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: marty34 on December 12, 2019, 06:11:26 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on December 12, 2019, 12:53:19 PM
When Colum and Claire go to westminister and don't stop Brexit for the north will westminister be exposed as a myth for nationalists?

That's the point I would have - Colm always talking about he will stop Brexit.  If elected, and I think he'll win and Brexit goes ahead in whatever form, he'll have egg on his face.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 12, 2019, 06:30:58 PM
If it's a hung Parliament 2 Remainers could be the difference between a Hard Brexit with chlorinated chicken for everyone in NI and no Brexit at all. 2 Shinners abstaining would not be as effective. 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on December 12, 2019, 07:10:29 PM
Sf brexit is going to happen. You may get used to it.

More than happy to be wrong but see no possible way I will be.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 12, 2019, 07:13:58 PM
Higher turn out at my polling station, purely going on previous two elections
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on December 12, 2019, 07:59:27 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 12, 2019, 07:13:58 PM
Higher turn out at my polling station, purely going on previous two elections

62% turnout at 5pm at stranmillis. That's ridiculous. My parents were queuing at 11am. It's going to be an interesting night ahead of us
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RedHand88 on December 12, 2019, 08:19:35 PM
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on December 12, 2019, 07:59:27 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 12, 2019, 07:13:58 PM
Higher turn out at my polling station, purely going on previous two elections

62% turnout at 5pm at stranmillis. That's ridiculous. My parents were queuing at 11am. It's going to be an interesting night ahead of us

I vote in a staunch unionist area of South belfast, it was less than 31% at 5pm. Pengelly is gone.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 12, 2019, 08:20:07 PM
Quote from: trailer on December 12, 2019, 04:24:33 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on December 12, 2019, 04:09:43 PM
The twitterati are ranting about a #youthquake

Not entirely convinced by twitter as it's very much an echo chamber.

Is there any truth in this?

Some reported (young) people being turned away from #PollingStations because they didn't have ID.

That is bollocks.

YOU DO NOT NEED ANYTHING TO VOTE, NO ID OR EVEN POLLING CARD.

Make sure you go and #Vote. #GE2019


I needed photo ID, is this just a Norn Iron thing?

You need ID. End of story.

Ignorance is bliss
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 12, 2019, 08:27:28 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 12, 2019, 06:11:26 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on December 12, 2019, 12:53:19 PM
When Colum and Claire go to westminister and don't stop Brexit for the north will westminister be exposed as a myth for nationalists?

That's the point I would have - Colm always talking about he will stop Brexit.  If elected, and I think he'll win and Brexit goes ahead in whatever form, he'll have egg on his face.

So if Eastwood is elected and Boris wins with a handsome majority there will be egg on Eastwood's face. Do you have the slightest clue how parliamentary democracy works?? Maybe best all round if you don't answer that
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rois on December 12, 2019, 08:46:49 PM
Just got a knock on the door from SF with 1hr 15 mins to go to ask if I'd been out to vote yet. Working very hard in North Belfast.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on December 12, 2019, 08:53:39 PM
Quote from: Rois on December 12, 2019, 08:46:49 PM
Just got a knock on the door from SF with 1hr 15 mins to go to ask if I'd been out to vote yet. Working very hard in North Belfast.

(https://theentertainmentnut.files.wordpress.com/2016/10/peanutslinus7.jpg?w=584)
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 12, 2019, 08:55:59 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 12, 2019, 08:27:28 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 12, 2019, 06:11:26 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on December 12, 2019, 12:53:19 PM
When Colum and Claire go to westminister and don't stop Brexit for the north will westminister be exposed as a myth for nationalists?

That's the point I would have - Colm always talking about he will stop Brexit.  If elected, and I think he'll win and Brexit goes ahead in whatever form, he'll have egg on his face.

So if Eastwood is elected and Boris wins with a handsome majority there will be egg on Eastwood's face. Do you have the slightest clue how parliamentary democracy works?? Maybe best all round if you don't answer that

8:37pm
"Pound gets the jitters in final hour
With time ticking until voting hours are over (10pm), the pound has started to fall against the dollar and the euro,"

Pound down means no Tory landslide expected
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Orior on December 12, 2019, 08:57:58 PM
DUP offering people lifts to the polling station in North Belfast. I got them to take me to the local Spar where I got a loaf.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Square Ball on December 12, 2019, 09:06:25 PM
Voted in Cooke polling station in South Belfast, must have been 40 or so people queueing outside. First time I have ever seen that.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on December 12, 2019, 09:08:50 PM
Suzanne Breen saying bookies have Finucane at 4/6 with Dodds at 11/10!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on December 12, 2019, 09:09:30 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on December 12, 2019, 08:19:35 PM
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on December 12, 2019, 07:59:27 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 12, 2019, 07:13:58 PM
Higher turn out at my polling station, purely going on previous two elections

62% turnout at 5pm at stranmillis. That's ridiculous. My parents were queuing at 11am. It's going to be an interesting night ahead of us

I vote in a staunch unionist area of South belfast, it was less than 31% at 5pm. Pengelly is gone.

I really really hope you are right.

Gees if finucane wins I could actually see some trouble up there.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 12, 2019, 09:16:54 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 12, 2019, 09:08:50 PM
Suzanne Breen saying bookies have Finucane at 4/6 with Dodds at 11/10!
From Twitter
pinkmiss Retweeted

Sniffer 72
@Weller64
·
2h
The turnout figures in Nationalist areas of North Belfast at 5pm are off the scale.  Whatever happens tonight, John Finucane has mobilised the electorate here in a way unseen since the 1980's.  He appeals to all classes and is getting votes right across the divide.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Square Ball on December 12, 2019, 09:17:22 PM
North Belfast odds from Odds checker
SF 4/5
DUP 11/10
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Itchy on December 12, 2019, 09:20:36 PM
When would you expect votes to be counted in the north?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Square Ball on December 12, 2019, 09:22:03 PM
South Belfast
SDLP 1/6
Alliance 13/2
DUP 7/1
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RedHand88 on December 12, 2019, 09:24:28 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 12, 2019, 09:20:36 PM
When would you expect votes to be counted in the north?

Late on. Think West belfast is usually first round 2am.

The main event is North/South Belfast at 3am.

It takes a while to drive ballot boxes from the Moy and Teemore to Omagh leisure centre so Fermanagh South Tyrone usually last at 4am.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: marty34 on December 12, 2019, 09:25:35 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 12, 2019, 08:27:28 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 12, 2019, 06:11:26 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on December 12, 2019, 12:53:19 PM
When Colum and Claire go to westminister and don't stop Brexit for the north will westminister be exposed as a myth for nationalists?

That's the point I would have - Colm always talking about he will stop Brexit.  If elected, and I think he'll win and Brexit goes ahead in whatever form, he'll have egg on his face.

So if Eastwood is elected and Boris wins with a handsome majority there will be egg on Eastwood's face. Do you have the slightest clue how parliamentary democracy works?? Maybe best all round if you don't answer that

That's what he said - vote for me (Eastwood) and I'll stop Brexit. 

Do you have the slightest clue?  You mean...wait...he's telling porkies!!!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RedHand88 on December 12, 2019, 09:26:11 PM
Quote from: Square Ball on December 12, 2019, 09:22:03 PM
South Belfast
SDLP 1/6
Alliance 13/2
DUP 7/1

If she finishes 3rd it really will be a disaster for the Doops in the south of the city.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on December 12, 2019, 09:33:44 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 12, 2019, 09:16:54 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 12, 2019, 09:08:50 PM
Suzanne Breen saying bookies have Finucane at 4/6 with Dodds at 11/10!
From Twitter
pinkmiss Retweeted

Sniffer 72
@Weller64
·
2h
The turnout figures in Nationalist areas of North Belfast at 5pm are off the scale.  Whatever happens tonight, John Finucane has mobilised the electorate here in a way unseen since the 1980's.  He appeals to all classes and is getting votes right across the divide.

If Finucane unseated Dodds I think you could be potentially looking at the next leader of SF.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 12, 2019, 09:35:05 PM
Suzanne Breen was saying the DUP could lose 3 seats and win 1
That would be something .

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/suzanne-breen-the-many-factors-at-play-in-a-general-election-thats-just-too-difficult-to-call-38776693.html
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RedHand88 on December 12, 2019, 09:37:19 PM
Final predictions.

North down - DUP
FST - SF
Foyle - SDLP
South Belfast - SDLP
North Belfast - SF, just.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Ambrose on December 12, 2019, 09:38:18 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on December 12, 2019, 09:24:28 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 12, 2019, 09:20:36 PM
When would you expect votes to be counted in the north?

Late on. Think West belfast is usually first round 2am.

The main event is North/South Belfast at 3am.

It takes a while to drive ballot boxes from the Moy and Teemore to Omagh leisure centre so Fermanagh South Tyrone usually last at 4am.

Do they count overnight in the north? I assumed they wouldn't be counted until the morning. This could be a long night.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on December 12, 2019, 09:39:27 PM
They're counting tonight in the north, aye.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on December 12, 2019, 09:40:15 PM
Labour flooding activists into Golders Green to keep Luciana Berger out, Labour can't win and if Berger doesent get in it will be the Tories, she is a bit too Jewish I would say for the brown shirts of Labour
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on December 12, 2019, 09:41:12 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 12, 2019, 09:35:05 PM
Suzanne Breen was saying the DUP could lose 3 seats and win 1
That would be something .

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/suzanne-breen-the-many-factors-at-play-in-a-general-election-thats-just-too-difficult-to-call-38776693.html

If only hermon had stayed on too :-(
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Square Ball on December 12, 2019, 09:44:30 PM
Interesting to see what the BBC will predict form the exit polls. Very accurate last time out.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 12, 2019, 09:45:00 PM
Quote from: Ambrose on December 12, 2019, 09:38:18 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on December 12, 2019, 09:24:28 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 12, 2019, 09:20:36 PM
When would you expect votes to be counted in the north?

Late on. Think West belfast is usually first round 2am.

The main event is North/South Belfast at 3am.

It takes a while to drive ballot boxes from the Moy and Teemore to Omagh leisure centre so Fermanagh South Tyrone usually last at 4am.

Do they count overnight in the north? I assumed they wouldn't be counted until the morning. This could be a long night.
East Derry is 2am
Lagan Valley is around the same time
The Protestant counters must be very efficient
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: PMG1 on December 12, 2019, 09:46:48 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on December 12, 2019, 08:19:35 PM
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on December 12, 2019, 07:59:27 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 12, 2019, 07:13:58 PM
Higher turn out at my polling station, purely going on previous two elections

62% turnout at 5pm at stranmillis. That's ridiculous. My parents were queuing at 11am. It's going to be an interesting night ahead of us

I vote in a staunch unionist area of South belfast, it was less than 31% at 5pm. Pengelly is gone.

Give them time to get out of bed
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Square Ball on December 12, 2019, 10:00:56 PM
f**k me, a hammering of the exit polls are correct
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on December 12, 2019, 10:01:08 PM
Tory massacre
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rois on December 12, 2019, 10:01:16 PM
Holy shit, exit polls out! Currency jumps
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on December 12, 2019, 10:02:20 PM
Sweet Jesus.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Gabriel_Hurl on December 12, 2019, 10:02:28 PM
What a hammering
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Square Ball on December 12, 2019, 10:03:32 PM
Corbyn has to go
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on December 12, 2019, 10:04:12 PM
Quote from: Square Ball on December 12, 2019, 10:03:32 PM
Corbyn has to go

Yeah and will be replaced by a bigger loon, McDonnell
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on December 12, 2019, 10:04:29 PM
Must be end of the line for Corbyn now. And the "Remain" campaign will have to change its name to "Rejoin."
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Jeepers Creepers on December 12, 2019, 10:04:33 PM
Brexit full speed ahead. Christ.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 12, 2019, 10:04:51 PM
That's embarrassing if it gets close to the exit polls, wonder will the DUP be happy?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: OgraAnDun on December 12, 2019, 10:05:01 PM
At least that's the end of the U.K. in its current form - Scots to go next year
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on December 12, 2019, 10:05:22 PM
Hope the Scottish figure is right.
Time for them to leave the vile Union.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on December 12, 2019, 10:05:33 PM
Full hard Brexit ahead, Boris has licence to do what he wants, I despair.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: screenexile on December 12, 2019, 10:06:10 PM
It's been coming... tell me again how Keir Starmer wouldn't have done any better??!!

Buckle up folks!!!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 12, 2019, 10:06:33 PM
https://ft.com/content/07250e1d-a51a-333f-9609-13bf9b6777f9...

The broadcasters' exit poll is predicting a thumping majority for Boris Johnson, and the party's best performance since under Margaret Thatcher in 1987.

Conservative: 368

Labour: 191

SNP: 55

Lib Dem: 13

Brexit Party: 0
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on December 12, 2019, 10:06:53 PM
MPs in the north will be irrelevant this time.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RedHand88 on December 12, 2019, 10:07:04 PM
If it's anywhere near that exit poll it's some achievement for BoJo.

At least the DUP are out on their hole now.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: AZOffaly on December 12, 2019, 10:07:27 PM
#YouthQuake me bollix.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on December 12, 2019, 10:08:11 PM
@bbcJonSopel If correct, the famous Kaufman quote about the '83 Labour manifesto being the 'longest suicide note in history' will need to be updated #GE2019 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on December 12, 2019, 10:08:16 PM
NI's departure from the UK was always inevitable. Now it's the same for Scotland.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Ambrose on December 12, 2019, 10:08:22 PM
Quote from: Kidder81 on December 12, 2019, 10:01:08 PM
Tory massacre

Not quite the type of Tory massacre we were hoping for.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on December 12, 2019, 10:08:37 PM
Potentially looking at the end of Labour as we know it? Don't know how they can be so divided and stay together in the face of such a hammering if the numbers hold true.

Only slight hope now is Boris losing his own seat.

And Dodds losing would cheer me massively, even if irrelevant in the overall scheme of things.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 12, 2019, 10:09:54 PM
If people want their Brexit let them have it. An extremist Government will hurt them.

HL Mencken said that democracy is the art of giving the common people what they want, good and hard.

They will suffer
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on December 12, 2019, 10:10:09 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 12, 2019, 10:05:22 PM
Hope the Scottish figure is right.
Time for them to leave the vile Union.

Yeah that massive projected Tory majority will be so keen to give them their referendum, won't they?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: bennydorano on December 12, 2019, 10:12:17 PM
Miracle of Istanbul not happening I see. The Exit poll might be a few out but not remotely enough.

Labour have to return to the centre ground. Corbyn will go 2moro, hopefully they'll take their time and do it right. McDonnell might go too, there's a push for the next leader to be female.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: square_ball on December 12, 2019, 10:12:42 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 12, 2019, 10:08:37 PM
Potentially looking at the end of Labour as we know it? Don't know how they can be so divided and stay together in the face of such a hammering if the numbers hold true.

Only slight hope now is Boris losing his own seat.

And Dodds losing would cheer me massively, even if irrelevant in the overall scheme of things.

Yeah all NI seats are irrelevant now. Quite funny seeing Edwin Poots on BBC now still thinking they'll have any influence with the government.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on December 12, 2019, 10:13:59 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 12, 2019, 10:10:09 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 12, 2019, 10:05:22 PM
Hope the Scottish figure is right.
Time for them to leave the vile Union.

Yeah that massive projected Tory majority will be so keen to give them their referendum, won't they?

Scots Court will decide that.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on December 12, 2019, 10:16:48 PM
Binding referendum needs UK government approval.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on December 12, 2019, 10:20:24 PM
Scots people are Sovereign ;)
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: screenexile on December 12, 2019, 10:21:12 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 12, 2019, 10:13:59 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 12, 2019, 10:10:09 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 12, 2019, 10:05:22 PM
Hope the Scottish figure is right.
Time for them to leave the vile Union.

Yeah that massive projected Tory majority will be so keen to give them their referendum, won't they?

Scots Court will decide that.

No referendum without Government say so!!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on December 12, 2019, 10:21:44 PM
Last night I saw a friend share a video on FB of some people who looked like immigrants picking up clothes that were left out for the homeless. Some girl with a Belfast accent was berating them for it. There was no context, no other side of the story, no mention of whether or not the people picking the clothes needed them, just an assumption that they were "immigrants stealing from honest local people."

I've seen that kind of video shared by him before. It had a caption saying "Unbelievable! Stealing water from marathon runners!" It showed some black women gathering up water bottles from some tables at the side of the road. It was obvious from the background that the marathon was over, the road was empty, the water was no longer needed by any runners, and the stewards were standing around and letting them have at it. They were obviously low income people who were happy to avail of some free stuff that was being given to them, but some video editor with an agenda decided to repurpose it for his own racist ends knowing that he'd get plenty of shares.

The point I'm making is that in the next few weeks we're probably going to see evidence of the election being "tampered with" in the form of targeted social media content distributed in marginal constituencies, produced and funded by unknown parties (potentially from outside the country) and designed to whip up as much xenophobia, fear, bitterness, and all the other emotions on which the Tories thrive. And of course, like the day of the Brexit vote, once the election is past it'll be too late to do anything about it.

There are people in this world who are determined to prove that democracy doesn't work, and that their autocratic systems are superior. They're exploiting weak spots in western democratic systems, like the UK's first-past-the-post system and the US electoral college. And for now they seem to be winning.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on December 12, 2019, 10:22:35 PM
Corbynism/Momentum will go down as one of the biggest disasters in British Politics, totally self indulgent and as I said the "f**k off to the Tories you ****" approach to Labour voters if you disagree with them in the slightest approach didn't work, imagine that.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on December 12, 2019, 10:24:25 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 12, 2019, 10:20:24 PM
Scots people are Sovereign ;)

I don't think winking emojis of people from Roscommon have much sway when it comes to the constitutional status of countries within the UK.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 12, 2019, 10:25:03 PM
The Scots had their chance, and decided not too. Be interesting to see a UI referendum, would they learn from the Scots mistakes ?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Armagh18 on December 12, 2019, 10:31:06 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on December 12, 2019, 09:33:44 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 12, 2019, 09:16:54 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 12, 2019, 09:08:50 PM
Suzanne Breen saying bookies have Finucane at 4/6 with Dodds at 11/10!
From Twitter
pinkmiss Retweeted

Sniffer 72
@Weller64
·
2h
The turnout figures in Nationalist areas of North Belfast at 5pm are off the scale.  Whatever happens tonight, John Finucane has mobilised the electorate here in a way unseen since the 1980's.  He appeals to all classes and is getting votes right across the divide.

If Finucane unseated Dodds I think you could be potentially looking at the next leader of SF.
Would be brilliant. Far sooner see Doherty/Finucane than Mary Lou and Michelle.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: dec on December 12, 2019, 10:31:55 PM
Quote from: Kidder81 on December 12, 2019, 10:22:35 PM
Corbynism/Momentum will go down as one of the biggest disasters in British Politics, totally self indulgent and as I said the "f**k off to the Tories you ****" approach to Labour voters if you disagree with them in the slightest approach didn't work, imagine that.

When Corbyn won the leadership he didn't have enough supporters among Labour MPs to get nominated so some MPs nominated him even though they did not intend to vote for him just to ensure he got on the ballot. I imagine they thought he had no chance of winning.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-33127323
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Captain Obvious on December 12, 2019, 10:32:07 PM
A buffoon like Boris Johnson having a such a landslide victory just highlights how awful weak Corbyn and his party are.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Itchy on December 12, 2019, 10:33:51 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on December 12, 2019, 10:32:07 PM
A buffoon like Boris Johnson having a such a landslide victory just highlights how awful weak Corbyn and his party are.

No ot highlights how f**king stupid the general english man is
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Armagh18 on December 12, 2019, 10:35:57 PM
British people really are idiots. Imagine even considering voting for the party that has completely fucked your country for the last 10 years and will sell the nhs to Trump and his buddies.

Needs to be a UI within the next 3 years. Scotland to go within 2.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 12, 2019, 10:36:41 PM


Carole Cadwalladr
@carolecadwalla
America, wondering what UK election means for 2020? Think: zero idea what is going on in real time. Zero idea who is being targeted with what data. Zero idea who is placing 1/3 ads. Mainstream media still being gamed. Lies absolutelyfuckingeverywhere. Like Britain except worse



Edward Luce
@EdwardGLuce
·
16m
Not feeling massively bullish about the future of liberal democracy tonight.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: bennydorano on December 12, 2019, 10:37:26 PM
SNP will be on a sticky wicket now, they could go down the route of having a Referendum without UK approval, it could get very dirty & nasty.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on December 12, 2019, 10:38:22 PM
One thing this result will hopefully force people to realise is that social media, especially Twitter is not the real world. The likes of Owen Jones and Ash Sarkar have been tweeting flat out over the last few hours about major Tories (BoJo, IDS, Raab etc) were at risk. If they all come back with comfortable majorities, people might start to think that there's more to things than what like-minded people say on the interweb.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RedHand88 on December 12, 2019, 10:43:04 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 12, 2019, 10:38:22 PM
One thing this result will hopefully force people to realise is that social media, especially Twitter is not the real world. The likes of Owen Jones and Ash Sarkar have been tweeting flat out over the last few hours about major Tories (BoJo, IDS, Raab etc) were at risk. If they all come back with comfortable majorities, people might start to think that there's more to things than what like-minded people say on the interweb.

Agree completely. Wouldn't get my hopes up though.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: HiMucker on December 12, 2019, 10:50:02 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 12, 2019, 10:16:48 PM
Binding referendum needs UK government approval.
If they don't grant them one and they have one themselves, they can hardly stop it. It won't be like Catalonia thats for sure. It's in the Scots hands no matter what Westminster say about it.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on December 12, 2019, 10:52:16 PM
What's this I hear about Jo Swinson being in a bit of trouble in her own seat?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on December 12, 2019, 10:52:58 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 12, 2019, 10:25:03 PM
The Scots had their chance, and decided not too. (sic) Be interesting to see a UI referendum, would they learn from the Scots mistakes ?

That was before the Brexit vote. All is changed, and changed utterly.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: screenexile on December 12, 2019, 10:53:41 PM
2 big takeaways for me from this.

1. Social Media is massively over rated in an election. Judging by social media you thought Labour had huge momentum and would make a difference. Reality is that the numbers who meaningfully engage in social media regularly is not as high as we believe.

2. Brexit was not an anomaly that would have been fixed by another referendum. The stupid c***ts actually want it so there's absolutely zero point arguing about it anymore!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 12, 2019, 10:56:42 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 12, 2019, 10:52:58 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 12, 2019, 10:25:03 PM
The Scots had their chance, and decided not too. (sic) Be interesting to see a UI referendum, would they learn from the Scots mistakes ?

That was before the Brexit vote. All is changed, and changed utterly.

The polls before that referendum had them winning a referendum .

Uk is telling us that if they did another referendum on brexit it would be a bigger result
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: HiMucker on December 12, 2019, 10:56:59 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 12, 2019, 10:53:41 PM
2 big takeaways for me from this.

1. Social Media is massively over rated in an election. Judging by social media you thought Labour had huge momentum and would make a difference. Reality is that the numbers who meaningfully engage in social media regularly is not as high as we believe.

2. Brexit was not an anomaly that would have been fixed by another referendum. The stupid c***ts actually want it so there's absolutely zero point arguing about it anymore!
Yip I agree with all that, and Keir Starmer wouldn't have changed their mind  ;)
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: JohnDenver on December 12, 2019, 11:00:35 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 12, 2019, 10:53:41 PM
2 big takeaways for me from this.

1. Social Media is massively over rated in an election. Judging by social media you thought Labour had huge momentum and would make a difference. Reality is that the numbers who meaningfully engage in social media regularly is not as high as we believe.

2. Brexit was not an anomaly that would have been fixed by another referendum. The stupid c***ts actually want it so there's absolutely zero point arguing about it anymore!

On your first point - could be a factor that your own beliefs and who your follow etc showing you a greater labour momentum, which would be similar to myself. They say you should follow as many people as possible who you disagree with, even though it would infuriate you at times.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RedHand88 on December 12, 2019, 11:03:03 PM
SF sources say they will lose Foyle to the SDLP.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on December 12, 2019, 11:04:58 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on December 12, 2019, 11:03:03 PM
SF sources say they will lose Foyle to the SDLP.

In fairness eastwood is light years better than mccallion. Really hope finucane sneaks it in NB. Would love to see dodds' face if he loses
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: TheOptimist on December 12, 2019, 11:06:48 PM
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on December 12, 2019, 11:04:58 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on December 12, 2019, 11:03:03 PM
SF sources say they will lose Foyle to the SDLP.

In fairness eastwood is light years better than mccallion. Really hope finucane sneaks it in NB. Would love to see dodds' face if he loses

Wonder  how he'll get on stopping Boris and Brrxit  ::) ::)
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 12, 2019, 11:09:29 PM
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on December 12, 2019, 11:04:58 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on December 12, 2019, 11:03:03 PM
SF sources say they will lose Foyle to the SDLP.

In fairness eastwood is light years better than mccallion. Really hope finucane sneaks it in NB. Would love to see dodds' face if he loses

He'll take a leadership role and go into Stormont once it's up and running
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on December 12, 2019, 11:10:06 PM
RTÉ has set up a results page for NI:

https://www.rte.ie/news/uk-election-2019/results/
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on December 12, 2019, 11:11:31 PM
Quote from: JohnDenver on December 12, 2019, 11:00:35 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 12, 2019, 10:53:41 PM
2 big takeaways for me from this.

1. Social Media is massively over rated in an election. Judging by social media you thought Labour had huge momentum and would make a difference. Reality is that the numbers who meaningfully engage in social media regularly is not as high as we believe.

2. Brexit was not an anomaly that would have been fixed by another referendum. The stupid c***ts actually want it so there's absolutely zero point arguing about it anymore!

On your first point - could be a factor that your own beliefs and who your follow etc showing you a greater labour momentum, which would be similar to myself. They say you should follow as many people as possible who you disagree with, even though it would infuriate you at times.

This is absolutely the case. Twitter and how its consumed is everyone's own private echo chamber. It's just not reflective of the wider world.

Whether McCallion or Eastwood wins Foyle is completely irrelevant.

The tiniest of silver linings is that Boris certainly doesn't need the DUP so you'd imagine he'll just ratify his deal rather then reverse it and go full no deal Brexit.

And Dodds out, let's go.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rois on December 12, 2019, 11:12:55 PM
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on December 12, 2019, 11:04:58 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on December 12, 2019, 11:03:03 PM
SF sources say they will lose Foyle to the SDLP.

In fairness eastwood is light years better than mccallion. Really hope finucane sneaks it in NB. Would love to see dodds' face if he loses
Not all that usual for me to be shouting for SF, but since I pass Dodds's (shuttered) office every day, I would absolutely love to be there when they take down the MP sign from it.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Square Ball on December 12, 2019, 11:13:39 PM
Odds checker showing SF 1/50 in North Belfast. Can someone else check as well
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on December 12, 2019, 11:14:48 PM
Quote from: Square Ball on December 12, 2019, 11:13:39 PM
Odds checker showing SF 1/50 in North Belfast. Can someone else check as well

SF 4/9

DUP 9/10
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on December 12, 2019, 11:16:48 PM
Quote from: Square Ball on December 12, 2019, 11:13:39 PM
Odds checker showing SF 1/50 in North Belfast. Can someone else check as well

Looks like 4/9 so not 1/50 but still bookies have him as favourite
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: under the bar on December 12, 2019, 11:20:25 PM
Early results suggest that Dodds and Foster are still a pair of cnuts!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 12, 2019, 11:22:09 PM
If Jeremy goes so most Swiston. LD look like they have been hammered also. And she thought they had a chance  ;D
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Targetman on December 12, 2019, 11:22:54 PM
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on December 12, 2019, 11:16:48 PM
Quote from: Square Ball on December 12, 2019, 11:13:39 PM
Odds checker showing SF 1/50 in North Belfast. Can someone else check as well

Looks like 4/9 so not 1/50 but still bookies have him as favourite
Feck I hope the bookies have this one right!!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on December 12, 2019, 11:23:58 PM
Finucane drifting to 4/5. Hang in there John, give us something!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: GJL on December 12, 2019, 11:25:14 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 12, 2019, 11:22:09 PM
If Jeremy goes so most Swiston. LD look like they have been hammered also. And she thought they had a chance  ;D

Swinston has lost her seat by the looks of it.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 12, 2019, 11:30:32 PM
Quote from: GJL on December 12, 2019, 11:25:14 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 12, 2019, 11:22:09 PM
If Jeremy goes so most Swiston. LD look like they have been hammered also. And she thought they had a chance  ;D

Swinston has lost her seat by the looks of it.

Wasn't convincing anytime I heard her speak
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: balladmaker on December 12, 2019, 11:56:06 PM
Whenever Irish reunification takes place, and it will, Dec 12th 2019 will be looked on as as a key date in laying the foundations for a United Ireland.  Bring it on.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: weareros on December 12, 2019, 11:56:32 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 12, 2019, 11:23:58 PM
Finucane drifting to 4/5. Hang in there John, give us something!

Has there ever been a more tense seat - one minute it's Finucane, another Dodd's. Hopefully the combover is gone.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on December 12, 2019, 11:58:00 PM
Quote from: weareros on December 12, 2019, 11:56:32 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 12, 2019, 11:23:58 PM
Finucane drifting to 4/5. Hang in there John, give us something!

Has there ever been a more tense seat - one minute it's Finucane, another Dodd's. Hopefully the combover is gone.

Didn't see alliance doing so well in North Down. Fingers crossed
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on December 13, 2019, 12:00:20 AM
SF North Belfast confirmed in to 1/50 in oddschecker via Betfair.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on December 13, 2019, 12:02:33 AM
Quote from: gallsman on December 13, 2019, 12:00:20 AM
SF North Belfast confirmed in to 1/50 in oddschecker via Betfair.

I have seen DUP at 1/50 in SB which is bullshit I think it just does it when they are adjusting the odds
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 12:03:14 AM
Some brilliant tweets about DUP from conservative MP's saying they were king makers at one of the votes for brexit and now they'll get a worse deal now with Boris with a majority
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: mouview on December 13, 2019, 12:07:37 AM
Quote from: balladmaker on December 12, 2019, 11:56:06 PM
Whenever Irish reunification takes place, and it will, Dec 12th 2019 will be looked on as as a key date in laying the foundations for a United Ireland.  Bring it on.

Will it be Varadkar's legacy? To repeat one again, he should never have thrown that lifebuoy to Johnson, a 2nd ref. would surely have come.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on December 13, 2019, 12:10:53 AM
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on December 13, 2019, 12:02:33 AM
Quote from: gallsman on December 13, 2019, 12:00:20 AM
SF North Belfast confirmed in to 1/50 in oddschecker via Betfair.

I have seen DUP at 1/50 in SB which is bullshit I think it just does it when they are adjusting the odds

Think you're right. Still, Finucane in to 2/5, Dodds at 5/6. Super close.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RedHand88 on December 13, 2019, 12:12:09 AM
Looking possible that DUP could lose north belfast and may not even gain north down now.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 12:15:19 AM
North Down should still be DUP but only by a few hundred votes
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Ambrose on December 13, 2019, 12:16:33 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 12:15:19 AM
North Down should still be DUP but only by a few hundred votes

Congrats MR2, sounds like you've had a great election.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Ambrose on December 13, 2019, 12:24:09 AM
BBC O6C reporting DUP looking worried in north Down. just under 61% turnout.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 12:29:42 AM
Quote from: Ambrose on December 13, 2019, 12:16:33 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 12:15:19 AM
North Down should still be DUP but only by a few hundred votes

Congrats MR2, sounds like you've had a great election.

County Down ones are unionists. I'm from Antrim  8)
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on December 13, 2019, 12:33:07 AM
Some saying south down is tighter than first thought
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Ambrose on December 13, 2019, 12:35:08 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 12:29:42 AM
County Down ones are unionists. I'm from Antrim  8)

Sammy Wilson is also from Antrim. 8)
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RedHand88 on December 13, 2019, 12:44:40 AM

Paul Reilly
@Paul_UTV
Alliance sources "quietly confident" of taking North Down - and suggesting Stephen Farry's majority could be slightly bigger than Lady Hermon's in 2017.
12:42 AM · Dec 13, 2019·Twitter Web App
2
Retweets
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 12:50:23 AM
Potts face on tv is something else!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 01:00:17 AM
Superb in North Down!! Alliance sound to be doing well can Naomi do something??
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 01:02:29 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 12:50:23 AM
Potts face on tv is something else!

He's f**king livid brilliant!!!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Square Ball on December 13, 2019, 01:09:24 AM
BBC online reporting alliance to win North Down
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: weareros on December 13, 2019, 01:16:20 AM
Quote from: Square Ball on December 13, 2019, 01:09:24 AM
BBC online reporting alliance to win North Down

Fantastic. Farry good supporter of ILA. Big kick in the gob to DUP that.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Ambrose on December 13, 2019, 01:17:10 AM
RTE reporting SDLP will take Foyle.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 01:17:15 AM
Anybody watching Channel 4s coverage?? f**king bonkers!!!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on December 13, 2019, 01:17:19 AM
DUP losing North Down which few people seen coming. If Finucane takes North Belfast it will send tremors through Unionism. Arlene Fosters leadership must be in doubt were that to happen.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 01:23:33 AM
DUP at this stage odds on to lose one seat and fairly close in NB and EB. God if they lost 3 seats along with North Down which they would have expected to walk that could not have been a better result for the North as a whole!

Foster would have to go!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: weareros on December 13, 2019, 01:24:24 AM
Sounds like  SDLP could take South Down.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: GJL on December 13, 2019, 01:26:26 AM
Bryson's MP is Allaince. He is having a complete breakdown on Twitter.  ;D
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on December 13, 2019, 01:28:50 AM
Quote from: GJL on December 13, 2019, 01:26:26 AM
Bryson's MP is Allaince. He is having a complete breakdown on Twitter.  ;D

I know it's hilarious. Someone should call him an ambulance ;D
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RedHand88 on December 13, 2019, 01:30:34 AM

Jayne McCormack
@BBCJayneMcC
Hearing from sources here in Titanic that Sinn Féin's John Finucane could take North Belfast by just under 1,000 votes - all according to tallies obviously so big health warning but doing the rounds here in Belfast count #GE19
1:26 AM · Dec 13, 2019·Twitter for iPhone
38
Retweets
47
Likes
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on December 13, 2019, 01:36:06 AM
Quote from: GJL on December 13, 2019, 01:26:26 AM
Bryson's MP is Allaince. He is having a complete breakdown on Twitter.  ;D

He is a godsend for nationalism but he can't see it.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: weareros on December 13, 2019, 01:37:28 AM
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on December 13, 2019, 01:28:50 AM
Quote from: GJL on December 13, 2019, 01:26:26 AM
Bryson's MP is Allaince. He is having a complete breakdown on Twitter.  ;D

I know it's hilarious. Someone should call him an ambulance ;D

Nationalists could not invent a clown like that, a coke sniffing, English challenged, grammar challenged banner maker.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on December 13, 2019, 01:38:56 AM
68.4% turnout in N Belfast
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 01:40:26 AM
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on December 12, 2019, 10:02:28 PM
What a hammering

It's not looking good. Big swing of Labour Leave vote to Brexit party opening up a lot seats to Tories
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on December 13, 2019, 01:40:43 AM
Nesbitt thoroughly enjoying himself beside Poots there.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 01:43:25 AM
Quote from: OgraAnDun on December 12, 2019, 10:05:01 PM
At least that's the end of the U.K. in its current form - Scots to go next year

Hi so.

Scotland can't leave without a referendum.

A referendum is in the sole gift of the Prime minister.

What has happened tonight that indicates the PM will grant it?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Ambrose on December 13, 2019, 01:44:15 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 13, 2019, 01:38:56 AM
68.4% turnout in N Belfast

Cautiously optimistic of a win for Finucane now.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 01:45:22 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 12, 2019, 10:06:10 PM
It's been coming... tell me again how Keir Starmer wouldn't have done any better??!!

Buckle up folks!!!

Because he isn't in a position to stop the swing to the Brexit party
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 01:48:16 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 12, 2019, 10:08:16 PM
NI's departure from the UK was always inevitable. Now it's the same for Scotland.

How?

Boris needs no Scottish votes in or out of parliament. Explain your thinking
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 01:51:21 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on December 12, 2019, 10:22:35 PM
Corbynism/Momentum will go down as one of the biggest disasters in British Politics, totally self indulgent and as I said the "f**k off to the Tories you ****" approach to Labour voters if you disagree with them in the slightest approach didn't work, imagine that.

You were asked to back this up with actual names told to f**k off. No response to date.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Harold Disgracey on December 13, 2019, 01:51:55 AM
Farry wins North Down.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Ambrose on December 13, 2019, 01:52:09 AM
Pootsy confirms Alliance win north Down by 3000ish

Confirmed now Alliance 18358    Dup 15390


Yeooooooooo
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Ambrose on December 13, 2019, 01:54:05 AM
Robinson holds east Belfast by 2500 ish over Naomi Long.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RedHand88 on December 13, 2019, 01:57:04 AM
Poots has the look of someone who has found a shite in his shoe.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on December 13, 2019, 02:02:55 AM
Reports that Hanna has won by a landslide
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 02:04:16 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 01:45:22 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 12, 2019, 10:06:10 PM
It's been coming... tell me again how Keir Starmer wouldn't have done any better??!!

Buckle up folks!!!

Because he isn't in a position to stop the swing to the Brexit party

I think it's fair to say Labours fence sitting/anti-semitism/Corbyns past/"freedom fighter" sympathies/nationalisation of everything under the sun all contributed to the defeat at least as much as the Brexit party.

Starmer would have sorted out most of the above!

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Ambrose on December 13, 2019, 02:09:13 AM
BBC reporting Finucane could be ahead by as much as 2000 votes.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 02:10:00 AM
Quote from: TheOptimist on December 12, 2019, 11:06:48 PM
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on December 12, 2019, 11:04:58 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on December 12, 2019, 11:03:03 PM
SF sources say they will lose Foyle to the SDLP.

In fairness eastwood is light years better than mccallion. Really hope finucane sneaks it in NB. Would love to see dodds' face if he loses

Wonder  how he'll get on stopping Boris and Brrxit  ::) ::)

I think he will at least try, it would hard to disagree with the statement that McCallion didn't even bother to try.

Her achievements as an MP were zero. A total non entity
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 02:12:13 AM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on December 12, 2019, 10:32:07 PM
A buffoon like Boris Johnson having a such a landslide victory just highlights how awful weak Corbyn and his party are.

Vote has leaked to Brexit Party. Looks like Labour needed a stronger Leave proposition
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 02:12:24 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 02:10:00 AM
Quote from: TheOptimist on December 12, 2019, 11:06:48 PM
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on December 12, 2019, 11:04:58 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on December 12, 2019, 11:03:03 PM
SF sources say they will lose Foyle to the SDLP.

In fairness eastwood is light years better than mccallion. Really hope finucane sneaks it in NB. Would love to see dodds' face if he loses

Wonder  how he'll get on stopping Boris and Brrxit  ::) ::)

I think he will at least try, it would hard to disagree with the statement that McCallion didn't even bother to try.

Her achievements as an MP were zero. A total non entity

You're forgetting all the work behind the scenes that you didn't see though!!

Lol
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RedHand88 on December 13, 2019, 02:14:44 AM
North belfast expected to be about 23.5k v 21.5k in favour of Finucane.

Unbelievable stuff. This is a historic night.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: GJL on December 13, 2019, 02:20:09 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on December 13, 2019, 02:14:44 AM
North belfast expected to be about 23.5k v 21.5k in favour of Finucane.

Unbelievable stuff. This is a historic night.

Fantastic. Taking Dodds' seat from him sends out a serious message.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Ambrose on December 13, 2019, 02:21:09 AM
SF hold west Tyrone
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 02:22:58 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 02:04:16 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 01:45:22 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 12, 2019, 10:06:10 PM
It's been coming... tell me again how Keir Starmer wouldn't have done any better??!!

Buckle up folks!!!

Because he isn't in a position to stop the swing to the Brexit party

I think it's fair to say Labours fence sitting/anti-semitism/Corbyns past/"freedom fighter" sympathies/nationalisation of everything under the sun all contributed to the defeat at least as much as the Brexit party.

Starmer would have sorted out most of the above!

Swing to Brexit party. Remember that in your "analysis"
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Ambrose on December 13, 2019, 02:24:23 AM
BBC reporting Claire Hanna has taken south Belfast by more than 9000 votes
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 02:28:32 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 02:22:58 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 02:04:16 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 01:45:22 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 12, 2019, 10:06:10 PM
It's been coming... tell me again how Keir Starmer wouldn't have done any better??!!

Buckle up folks!!!

Because he isn't in a position to stop the swing to the Brexit party

I think it's fair to say Labours fence sitting/anti-semitism/Corbyns past/"freedom fighter" sympathies/nationalisation of everything under the sun all contributed to the defeat at least as much as the Brexit party.

Starmer would have sorted out most of the above!

Swing to Brexit party. Remember that in your "analysis"

Keep towing the Momentum line!!

https://twitter.com/jonnygeller/status/1205294406498181120
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 02:36:44 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 02:28:32 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 02:22:58 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 02:04:16 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 01:45:22 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 12, 2019, 10:06:10 PM
It's been coming... tell me again how Keir Starmer wouldn't have done any better??!!

Buckle up folks!!!

Because he isn't in a position to stop the swing to the Brexit party

I think it's fair to say Labours fence sitting/anti-semitism/Corbyns past/"freedom fighter" sympathies/nationalisation of everything under the sun all contributed to the defeat at least as much as the Brexit party.

Starmer would have sorted out most of the above!

Swing to Brexit party. Remember that in your "analysis"

Keep towing the Momentum line!!

https://twitter.com/jonnygeller/status/1205294406498181120

My point is valid. What is the swing to Tories? What is the swing to Brexit party? What is the swing to others?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rois on December 13, 2019, 02:40:26 AM
Michelle and Mary Lou smirking beyond belief now on bbc  ;)
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 02:49:00 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 02:36:44 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 02:28:32 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 02:22:58 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 02:04:16 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 01:45:22 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 12, 2019, 10:06:10 PM
It's been coming... tell me again how Keir Starmer wouldn't have done any better??!!

Buckle up folks!!!

Because he isn't in a position to stop the swing to the Brexit party

I think it's fair to say Labours fence sitting/anti-semitism/Corbyns past/"freedom fighter" sympathies/nationalisation of everything under the sun all contributed to the defeat at least as much as the Brexit party.

Starmer would have sorted out most of the above!

Swing to Brexit party. Remember that in your "analysis"

Keep towing the Momentum line!!

https://twitter.com/jonnygeller/status/1205294406498181120

My point is valid. What is the swing to Tories? What is the swing to Brexit party? What is the swing to others?

We'll know in the morning and while it may be the case Corbyns leadership is a much bigger factor I would contend.

Given what the Tories have done to the country for the last 9 years it's madness to suggest that someone other than Corbyn could not have performed any better. Blaming the Brexit Party for the result is a small part of the overall failure!!!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RedHand88 on December 13, 2019, 02:56:21 AM
Quote from: Rois on December 13, 2019, 02:40:26 AM
Michelle and Mary Lou smirking beyond belief now on bbc  ;)

They put all their eggs into the north belfast basket and it's paid off.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Ambrose on December 13, 2019, 02:57:32 AM
North Belfast  John Finucane (SF) 23078   Nigel Dodds (DUP) 21135
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Harold Disgracey on December 13, 2019, 02:58:44 AM
Get in, well done John Finucane.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rois on December 13, 2019, 03:00:32 AM
Yeoooooo!!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: whitey on December 13, 2019, 03:00:39 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 02:49:00 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 02:36:44 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 02:28:32 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 02:22:58 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 02:04:16 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 01:45:22 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 12, 2019, 10:06:10 PM
It's been coming... tell me again how Keir Starmer wouldn't have done any better??!!

Buckle up folks!!!

Because he isn't in a position to stop the swing to the Brexit party

I think it's fair to say Labours fence sitting/anti-semitism/Corbyns past/"freedom fighter" sympathies/nationalisation of everything under the sun all contributed to the defeat at least as much as the Brexit party.

Starmer would have sorted out most of the above!

Swing to Brexit party. Remember that in your "analysis"

Keep towing the Momentum line!!

https://twitter.com/jonnygeller/status/1205294406498181120

My point is valid. What is the swing to Tories? What is the swing to Brexit party? What is the swing to others?

We'll know in the morning and while it may be the case Corbyns leadership is a much bigger factor I would contend.

Given what the Tories have done to the country for the last 9 years it's madness to suggest that someone other than Corbyn could not have performed any better. Blaming the Brexit Party for the result is a small part of the overall failure!!!

Screenexile.....maybe the Tories arent as bad as the media would have you believe. 

Youre implying that people who voted for the Tories are stupid

Thats exactly the elitist dismissive obnoxious attitude that has led to this battering
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Square Ball on December 13, 2019, 03:01:00 AM
Brilliant result, ran a good campaign despite the abuse he got.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RedHand88 on December 13, 2019, 03:02:43 AM
Dodds looks gutted.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Ambrose on December 13, 2019, 03:02:56 AM
Quote from: Rois on December 13, 2019, 03:00:32 AM
Yeoooooo!!

You wouldn't be sitting up tonight if you'd moved to Lurgan.  8)
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Harold Disgracey on December 13, 2019, 03:06:17 AM
Absolutely delighted for the Finucane family. The union is fucked!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Boycey on December 13, 2019, 03:07:38 AM
Mary Lou and Michelle look completely surplus to requirements?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Ambrose on December 13, 2019, 03:09:13 AM
Quote from: Boycey on December 13, 2019, 03:07:38 AM
Mary Lou and Michelle look completely surplus to requirements?

They've looked like that for some time now.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rois on December 13, 2019, 03:13:57 AM
Quote from: Ambrose on December 13, 2019, 03:02:56 AM
Quote from: Rois on December 13, 2019, 03:00:32 AM
Yeoooooo!!

You wouldn't be sitting up tonight if you'd moved to Lurgan.  8)
Ha. My family (myself, sisters and bro in law) represent 5 of the loaned votes in NB, motivated by the desire to remove Nigel Dodds. Good to see they weren't wasted. Finucane is the same age as me and we have mutual friends. For me as an SDLP member and supporter, he was the best possible option. I would have found it much harder/impossible  with Gerry Kelly. 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: weareros on December 13, 2019, 03:14:16 AM
Could FST screw it all up. Tom Elliott could win.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 03:18:30 AM
Quote from: weareros on December 13, 2019, 03:14:16 AM
Could FST screw it all up. Tom Elliott could win.

Why would it?? As long as the DUP are fucked Sinn Fein's vote doesn't particularly matter!!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: weareros on December 13, 2019, 03:24:02 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 03:18:30 AM
Quote from: weareros on December 13, 2019, 03:14:16 AM
Could FST screw it all up. Tom Elliott could win.

Why would it?? As long as the DUP are fucked Sinn Fein's vote doesn't particularly matter!!

If nationalists win more seats, sends a big signal. So hoping FST does not turn that.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 03:27:09 AM
Quote from: whitey on December 13, 2019, 03:00:39 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 02:49:00 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 02:36:44 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 02:28:32 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 02:22:58 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 02:04:16 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 01:45:22 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 12, 2019, 10:06:10 PM
It's been coming... tell me again how Keir Starmer wouldn't have done any better??!!

Buckle up folks!!!

Because he isn't in a position to stop the swing to the Brexit party

I think it's fair to say Labours fence sitting/anti-semitism/Corbyns past/"freedom fighter" sympathies/nationalisation of everything under the sun all contributed to the defeat at least as much as the Brexit party.

Starmer would have sorted out most of the above!

Swing to Brexit party. Remember that in your "analysis"

Keep towing the Momentum line!!

https://twitter.com/jonnygeller/status/1205294406498181120

My point is valid. What is the swing to Tories? What is the swing to Brexit party? What is the swing to others?

We'll know in the morning and while it may be the case Corbyns leadership is a much bigger factor I would contend.

Given what the Tories have done to the country for the last 9 years it's madness to suggest that someone other than Corbyn could not have performed any better. Blaming the Brexit Party for the result is a small part of the overall failure!!!

Screenexile.....maybe the Tories arent as bad as the media would have you believe. 

Youre implying that people who voted for the Tories are stupid

Thats exactly the elitist dismissive obnoxious attitude that has led to this battering

Put it this way... there were less homeless people on the streets 10 years ago... I got a knee operation in 6 months 10 years ago where it's now over a 2 year wait... my local primary school are about to go into the red for the first time in their history.

The Tories are every bit as bad as the media/factual and anecdotal evidence would have you believe!!!

You're misunderstanding my point. I think people know how bad the Tories are yet Labour were so totally inept in this election, that they were unable to offer the public a credible alternative to one of the worst periods of government in UK history!!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 03:28:27 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 02:49:00 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 02:36:44 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 02:28:32 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 02:22:58 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 02:04:16 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 01:45:22 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 12, 2019, 10:06:10 PM
It's been coming... tell me again how Keir Starmer wouldn't have done any better??!!

Buckle up folks!!!

Because he isn't in a position to stop the swing to the Brexit party

I think it's fair to say Labours fence sitting/anti-semitism/Corbyns past/"freedom fighter" sympathies/nationalisation of everything under the sun all contributed to the defeat at least as much as the Brexit party.

Starmer would have sorted out most of the above!

Swing to Brexit party. Remember that in your "analysis"

Keep towing the Momentum line!!

https://twitter.com/jonnygeller/status/1205294406498181120

My point is valid. What is the swing to Tories? What is the swing to Brexit party? What is the swing to others?

We'll know in the morning and while it may be the case Corbyns leadership is a much bigger factor I would contend.

Given what the Tories have done to the country for the last 9 years it's madness to suggest that someone other than Corbyn could not have performed any better. Blaming the Brexit Party for the result is a small part of the overall failure!!!

Yes we will know more in the morning but you will at least accept that in the seats declared to date that the swing that resulted in the the seat being lost by Labour has been the swing to the Brexit Party?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Windmill abu on December 13, 2019, 03:31:17 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 03:18:30 AM
Quote from: weareros on December 13, 2019, 03:14:16 AM
Could FST screw it all up. Tom Elliott could win.

Why would it?? As long as the DUP are fucked Sinn Fein's vote doesn't particularly matter!!

W*nker. DUP were not standing in FST. The days of Nationalist votes not mattering are in the past.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 03:38:39 AM
Quote from: Windmill abu on December 13, 2019, 03:31:17 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 03:18:30 AM
Quote from: weareros on December 13, 2019, 03:14:16 AM
Could FST screw it all up. Tom Elliott could win.

Why would it?? As long as the DUP are fucked Sinn Fein's vote doesn't particularly matter!!

W*nker. DUP were not standing in FST. The days of Nationalist votes not mattering are in the past.

::) ::)
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RedHand88 on December 13, 2019, 03:39:23 AM
SFs abortion policy is costing them in Fermanagh South Tyrone.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 03:39:37 AM
20 votes!!! f**k that's close!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on December 13, 2019, 03:39:58 AM
Don't know how the unionists keep getting the vote out in FST. That seat shouldn't have been competitive for about 10 yrs
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: whitey on December 13, 2019, 03:40:10 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 03:27:09 AM
Quote from: whitey on December 13, 2019, 03:00:39 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 02:49:00 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 02:36:44 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 02:28:32 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 02:22:58 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 02:04:16 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 01:45:22 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 12, 2019, 10:06:10 PM
It's been coming... tell me again how Keir Starmer wouldn't have done any better??!!

Buckle up folks!!!

Because he isn't in a position to stop the swing to the Brexit party

I think it's fair to say Labours fence sitting/anti-semitism/Corbyns past/"freedom fighter" sympathies/nationalisation of everything under the sun all contributed to the defeat at least as much as the Brexit party.

Starmer would have sorted out most of the above!

Swing to Brexit party. Remember that in your "analysis"

Keep towing the Momentum line!!

https://twitter.com/jonnygeller/status/1205294406498181120

My point is valid. What is the swing to Tories? What is the swing to Brexit party? What is the swing to others?

We'll know in the morning and while it may be the case Corbyns leadership is a much bigger factor I would contend.

Given what the Tories have done to the country for the last 9 years it's madness to suggest that someone other than Corbyn could not have performed any better. Blaming the Brexit Party for the result is a small part of the overall failure!!!

Screenexile.....maybe the Tories arent as bad as the media would have you believe. 

Youre implying that people who voted for the Tories are stupid

Thats exactly the elitist dismissive obnoxious attitude that has led to this battering

Put it this way... there were less homeless people on the streets 10 years ago... I got a knee operation in 6 months 10 years ago where it's now over a 2 year wait... my local primary school are about to go into the red for the first time in their history.

The Tories are every bit as bad as the media/factual and anecdotal evidence would have you believe!!!

You're misunderstanding my point. I think people know how bad the Tories are yet Labour were so totally inept in this election, that they were unable to offer the public a credible alternative to one of the worst periods of government in UK history!!

Wow...so lifetime Labour voters in working class districts, that bore the brunt of Tory policies over the past decade, for the first time in their lives, voted Conservative this time out? 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 03:44:28 AM
Yes - a fair chunk of Lib Dem too!

https://twitter.com/samcoatessky/status/1205326821371322369
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on December 13, 2019, 04:14:08 AM
Gildernew has never lost when it's a straight fight against a unionist, can hopefully keep the record up.

Pengelly is absolutely useless. DUP line all night has been about still being relevant and having to fight Johnson's deal for the people of norn iron. She stands there going on about how 33,000 people in South Belfast voted for remain despite spending campaign talking about your she represents all of them. Then says tough shit, Boris is in power with a huge majority and his deal is going through and we need to get used to it.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on December 13, 2019, 04:15:46 AM
Just back in from working on the count at Titanic. Couple of spectacular results, in North & South Belfast.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RedHand88 on December 13, 2019, 04:16:28 AM
McCallion has done SF untold damage in Derry.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Sportacus on December 13, 2019, 04:24:49 AM
My God, Sinn Fein destroyed by SDLP in Derry.  How much is that about McCallion, and how much is it a message that people did want a Brexit voice in Westminster?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 13, 2019, 04:55:56 AM
Bad night for the Union

England votes for Brexit. Scotland and NI don't.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Sportacus on December 13, 2019, 05:01:56 AM
It's the beginning of the end for the Union.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on December 13, 2019, 05:14:22 AM
FST is taking its time declaring. Oddschecker has SF as the favourites there though.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: omochain on December 13, 2019, 05:55:53 AM
I am shocked. The Brits are not as smart as they think they are.... and as usual, their neighbors will be responsible for picking up the pieces.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 13, 2019, 06:09:33 AM
Quote from: Sportacus on December 13, 2019, 05:01:56 AM
It's the beginning of the end for the Union.
The Scottish referendum was 2014. At the time the Unionists barely won by assuring voters that the Union was the rational choice. And 2 years later England lost the plot.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: TheOptimist on December 13, 2019, 06:15:41 AM
 Not a bad night locally in end up. Some win for Eastwood, he got the message across well obviously. Have seen Dodds face yet, should be good to see  ;D
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 13, 2019, 06:23:51 AM
FT in Derbyshire

"He said the Conservatives must now prove they are the party of the working class by investing in the NHS and improving public transport outside London."

The Tories haven't got a notion.
All we can expect is more chaos
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: FermGael on December 13, 2019, 07:10:01 AM
Michelle wins FST by 57 votes.
More nationalist Mps now than unionist.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 13, 2019, 07:42:50 AM
Quote from: TheOptimist on December 13, 2019, 06:15:41 AM
Not a bad night locally in end up. Some win for Eastwood, he got the message across well obviously. Have seen Dodds face yet, should be good to see  ;D

I told yous weeks ago on here Elisha do little was snookered, Derry people very indepentent and free thinking, jesus like who even are Paul Maskey and francie Malloy
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: pbat on December 13, 2019, 07:47:01 AM
Really looking forward to the callers to fathead Nolan this morning.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: bennydorano on December 13, 2019, 07:49:02 AM
SF vote seems well down % wise constituency by constituency (bar NB), not great either for the DUP. With knuckles firmly wrapped for both parties and influence gone in the UK the return of Stormont is a certainty.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 07:51:06 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 13, 2019, 07:49:02 AM
SF vote seems well down % wise constituency by constituency (bar NB), not great either for the DUP. With knuckles firmly wrapped for both parties and influence gone in the UK the return of Stormont is a certainty.

Is it well down because of the pact?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: sensethetone on December 13, 2019, 08:05:43 AM
Nigel Dodds is replacing Jim Wells on the Nolan show. Good luck with your next venture Jim.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: MoChara on December 13, 2019, 08:11:56 AM
Quote from: FermGael on December 13, 2019, 07:10:01 AM
Michelle wins FST by 57 votes.
More nationalist Mps now than unionist.

Only if you don't consider Alliance "small u" unioinist
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on December 13, 2019, 08:21:49 AM
SF and The DUP routed. A clear message sent. Get back to work.
More nationalist MPs yes, but a broad spectrum. Claire Hanna isn't in the same circles as Mickey Brady. But a good night for progressive positive politics.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 13, 2019, 08:25:42 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 13, 2019, 07:49:02 AM
SF vote seems well down % wise constituency by constituency (bar NB), not great either for the DUP. With knuckles firmly wrapped for both parties and influence gone in the UK the return of Stormont is a certainty.

Stormont will be up and going again very soon, SF and DUP have no influence whatsoever now with Tory majority.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Aristo 60 on December 13, 2019, 08:56:41 AM
Would love to see SF and SDLP step aside in Lagan Valley next time out to see if Alliance could steal in on Sir Jeffrey.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on December 13, 2019, 09:03:02 AM
Good result for Nationalists seat wise due to the Brit 1st past the post system but still behind on votes (36% to 41%).
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on December 13, 2019, 09:03:18 AM
Woeful day for Unionism, they need to reevaluate and reform but I don't think they are capable of either. No strategic plan or vision for the future but unionism by its very nature is negative, defensive and fearful so I'm not sure what they can do to stem the tide. Huge win for Finucane who fought a very good campaign, never took the bait in getting involved in the dirty politics and was rewarded at the polling booths, he is the future of SF. Eastwood has probably been SDLP's best leader since Hume and if Irish unity is to be realised it will need a strong SDLP to sell it to middle ground voters. 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Applesisapples on December 13, 2019, 09:11:43 AM
Quote from: naka on December 12, 2019, 04:14:28 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on December 12, 2019, 01:06:55 PM
Nationalism has a problem and even though demographics are trending towards a nationalist majority neither SF nor the SDLP are making ground. Alliance seem to be mopping ups that younger vote, so a UI is fading. Michelle O'Neill is a vote loser, talks too fast and is incoherent at best. O'Dowd would have been a better bet. The SDLP on the other hand despite the obvious ability of Eastwood can't stop coming across as Uncle Tom's.
tbf conor murphy is the natural leader of the shinners but for whatever reason he has been sidelined.
they need him leading as he is articulate and can easily defend his position without resorting the rancour.
sdlp might do better than we think in this election purely as a wake up call to the shinners not to take their electorate or granted
Got it from a good source that Conor Murphy turned the leadership down. John O'Dowd or John Finucanne are probably the future. O'Neill puts me off SF, though I voted for them but that was more to do with not wanting to vote for Dolores Kelly who is worse than O'Neill. Colum Eastwood impresses me but he is alone in the SDLP.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: TheOptimist on December 13, 2019, 09:15:29 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on December 13, 2019, 09:11:43 AM
Quote from: naka on December 12, 2019, 04:14:28 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on December 12, 2019, 01:06:55 PM
Nationalism has a problem and even though demographics are trending towards a nationalist majority neither SF nor the SDLP are making ground. Alliance seem to be mopping ups that younger vote, so a UI is fading. Michelle O'Neill is a vote loser, talks too fast and is incoherent at best. O'Dowd would have been a better bet. The SDLP on the other hand despite the obvious ability of Eastwood can't stop coming across as Uncle Tom's.
tbf conor murphy is the natural leader of the shinners but for whatever reason he has been sidelined.
they need him leading as he is articulate and can easily defend his position without resorting the rancour.
sdlp might do better than we think in this election purely as a wake up call to the shinners not to take their electorate or granted
Got it from a good source that Conor Murphy turned the leadership down. John O'Dowd or John Finucanne are probably the future. O'Neill puts me off SF, though I voted for them but that was more to do with not wanting to vote for Dolores Kelly who is worse than O'Neill. Colum Eastwood impresses me but he is alone in the SDLP.

Colum is yet to win me over, he is a good speaker, but he needs to sort SDLP out policy wise and prove he can deliver. I didn't vote for him this time but will keep a close eye on him and would never rule out voting for anybody.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: bennydorano on December 13, 2019, 09:19:04 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 13, 2019, 08:25:42 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 13, 2019, 07:49:02 AM
SF vote seems well down % wise constituency by constituency (bar NB), not great either for the DUP. With knuckles firmly wrapped for both parties and influence gone in the UK the return of Stormont is a certainty.

Stormont will be up and going again very soon, SF and DUP have no influence whatsoever now with Tory majority.
Could see a bit of DUP stalling to force an Election (due by end of January if Stormont is not up and running) so they can parachute in Dodds & Pengelley as MLAs.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on December 13, 2019, 09:20:03 AM
Arlene Foster wasn't long in stating that she was going nowhere when asked about her leadership. Jeffrey Donaldson on the other hand gave a slightly different answer when he refused to emplatically back her when given the chance to do so. I think it's only a matter of time before she is gone. 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 09:23:47 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on December 13, 2019, 09:20:03 AM
Arlene Foster wasn't long in stating that she was going nowhere when asked about her leadership. Jeffrey Donaldson on the other hand gave a slightly different answer when he refused to emplatically back her when given the chance to do so. I think it's only a matter of time before she is gone.

She has a f**king brass neck and is probably the sole reason that the DUP are struggling at the minute. A more progressive leader after Robins could have seen them maintain their vote but nobody's buying the "don't feed the crocodile" politics she's selling.

Jesus the stunt they pulled about Finucane having to condemn the attack on Dodds 23 years ago was desperation stuff!!!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Applesisapples on December 13, 2019, 09:26:57 AM
Quote from: Sportacus on December 13, 2019, 04:24:49 AM
My God, Sinn Fein destroyed by SDLP in Derry.  How much is that about McCallion, and how much is it a message that people did want a Brexit voice in Westminster?
McCallion is O'Neill lite and that's not good, but Anty Martina's Tiocfaidh Ar La's don't help.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Tyrone Dreamer on December 13, 2019, 09:32:27 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 13, 2019, 09:03:02 AM
Good result for Nationalists seat wise due to the Brit 1st past the post system but still behind on votes (36% to 41%).

Think the two main unionist parties got 42.3% to 38.9% for Sinn Fein SDLP and aontu. The bigger thing is well over 50 per cent of people didn't vote for unionist parties. The traditional dominance is well gone.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Tyrone Dreamer on December 13, 2019, 09:35:27 AM
Over 55 per cent of voters didn't vote for unionist parties (counting alliance as neutral). That's a serious turnaround.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on December 13, 2019, 09:39:52 AM
The tide is turning with the demographics, soon be 40/40/20.
SF/SDLP and the 26 Co Parties need to be seriously engaging with the 20 and "civic unionism" from now on.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: ardtole on December 13, 2019, 09:40:41 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on December 13, 2019, 09:03:18 AM
Woeful day for Unionism, they need to reevaluate and reform but I don't think they are capable of either. No strategic plan or vision for the future but unionism by its very nature is negative, defensive and fearful so I'm not sure what they can do to stem the tide. Huge win for Finucane who fought a very good campaign, never took the bait in getting involved in the dirty politics and was rewarded at the polling booths, he is the future of SF. Eastwood has probably been SDLP's best leader since Hume and if Irish unity is to be realised it will need a strong SDLP to sell it to middle ground voters.

I'd have to agree with all of that yellow card. I thought Mike Nesbitt was very impressive last night, and reasonable with his commentary. It's a pity that unionists didn't back him when he was the uup leader.

John Finucane and Claire Hanna both spoke very well last night, Finucane in particular looks leadership material, Sinn Fein have a lot of work to do and north Belfast probably papers over a few cracks. In my opinion Mary Lou and Oneill need replaced at the top table.

Her hardcore stance regarding the abortion referendum in particular, nearly cost them in Fermanagh/south tyrone. I get the impression she hasn't learned any lessons though after a disaster showing in the council elections in the south.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on December 13, 2019, 09:43:15 AM
Quote from: hardstation on December 13, 2019, 09:33:29 AM
Quote from: trailer on December 13, 2019, 08:21:49 AM
SF and The DUP routed. A clear message sent. Get back to work.
More nationalist MPs yes, but a broad spectrum. Claire Hanna isn't in the same circles as Mickey Brady. But a good night for progressive positive politics.
It was a very good election for Sinn Féin.

It was a very good election for John Finucane and broader nationalism. It wasn't a very good election for SF overall although it is clear that their objective of a UI is gaining growing support. If it is to be achieved then SF will have to be prepared to cede ownership of the campaign to a more moderate approach and to take a hit vote wise because the argument will be won or lost by the middle 20%. 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 09:46:22 AM
Quote from: hardstation on December 13, 2019, 09:33:29 AM
Quote from: trailer on December 13, 2019, 08:21:49 AM
SF and The DUP routed. A clear message sent. Get back to work.
More nationalist MPs yes, but a broad spectrum. Claire Hanna isn't in the same circles as Mickey Brady. But a good night for progressive positive politics.
It was a very good election for Sinn Féin.

Eh?? The only real success they had was Finucane who needed everyone else to withdraw from the race so he could win.

Otherwise they've seen their vote share drop across the board (more than the DUP actually) and a complete annihilation in Derry. . . hardly what you'd call a good election. It's not a catastrophe like the DUP but describing it as a good election is a stretch!!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: cornerback on December 13, 2019, 09:47:54 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 13, 2019, 09:19:04 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 13, 2019, 08:25:42 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 13, 2019, 07:49:02 AM
SF vote seems well down % wise constituency by constituency (bar NB), not great either for the DUP. With knuckles firmly wrapped for both parties and influence gone in the UK the return of Stormont is a certainty.

Stormont will be up and going again very soon, SF and DUP have no influence whatsoever now with Tory majority.
Could see a bit of DUP stalling to force an Election (due by end of January if Stormont is not up and running) so they can parachute in Dodds & Pengelley as MLAs.

One will be parachuted in in place of Carla Lockhart
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on December 13, 2019, 09:49:12 AM
Quote from: hardstation on December 13, 2019, 09:33:29 AM
Quote from: trailer on December 13, 2019, 08:21:49 AM
SF and The DUP routed. A clear message sent. Get back to work.
More nationalist MPs yes, but a broad spectrum. Claire Hanna isn't in the same circles as Mickey Brady. But a good night for progressive positive politics.
It was a very good election for Sinn Féin.

I'd agree with that summation but that was purely based on Brexit and bloodying the nose of the DUP and their UDA lapdogs.
The Shinners will need more than that the next time there's an election which could be sooner rather than later.

Arlene will be thrown under the bus just after Christmas and before the RHI enquiry reports to allow the new DUP leadership to wash their hands of that particular scandal in that happened under the old regime and we're now so much better without them.


In England you gotta fear for the Northern vote that's taken Boris into No10 with such a huge majority.

IMO the voted for Brexit during Tory austerity as a way of kicking the ruling elite when none of their issues were anything to do with the EU and a lot of right wing shit stirring.

Kate Howie who I think is a horrible human being is probably right that Corbyn did OK in 2017 as he was still pro Brexit and then failed to understand his Northern electorate when they changed tack to second referendum and that obviously didn't wash in the face of Boris's focus group developed Get Brexit Done.
In all fairness to Corbyn was pushed down that route by his colleagues.

The UK will sneeze in economic terms and we'll catch the cold as they say, the wee six especially and the 26 won't go without impact either.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 09:59:24 AM
If only trailer were the final arbiter of what a good election result is.

It's semantics I suppose I agree FST and North Belfast were a success but Derry and the drop in vote share of 6.7% would make it an OK election I guess.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Sportacus on December 13, 2019, 09:59:45 AM
Hanna and Eastwood will be articulate MPs who will explain the nationalist position in London very well.  All necessary to keep progressing towards a New Ireland.  In contrast, what is the point of MPs like Micky Brady and Francie Molloy.  I literally couldn't tell you what they do from one week to the next.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: LeoMc on December 13, 2019, 10:01:33 AM
Quote from: cornerback on December 13, 2019, 09:47:54 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 13, 2019, 09:19:04 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 13, 2019, 08:25:42 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 13, 2019, 07:49:02 AM
SF vote seems well down % wise constituency by constituency (bar NB), not great either for the DUP. With knuckles firmly wrapped for both parties and influence gone in the UK the return of Stormont is a certainty.

Stormont will be up and going again very soon, SF and DUP have no influence whatsoever now with Tory majority.
Could see a bit of DUP stalling to force an Election (due by end of January if Stormont is not up and running) so they can parachute in Dodds & Pengelley as MLAs.

One will be parachuted in in place of Carla Lockhart
That will be a good indicator of whether Dodds or the UDA lead the party.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on December 13, 2019, 10:01:40 AM
Quote from: hardstation on December 13, 2019, 09:33:29 AM
Quote from: trailer on December 13, 2019, 08:21:49 AM
SF and The DUP routed. A clear message sent. Get back to work.
More nationalist MPs yes, but a broad spectrum. Claire Hanna isn't in the same circles as Mickey Brady. But a good night for progressive positive politics.
It was a very good election for Sinn Féin.

Not even SF think this was a good election for them.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on December 13, 2019, 10:06:35 AM
Quote from: hardstation on December 13, 2019, 09:49:52 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 09:46:22 AM
Quote from: hardstation on December 13, 2019, 09:33:29 AM
Quote from: trailer on December 13, 2019, 08:21:49 AM
SF and The DUP routed. A clear message sent. Get back to work.
More nationalist MPs yes, but a broad spectrum. Claire Hanna isn't in the same circles as Mickey Brady. But a good night for progressive positive politics.
It was a very good election for Sinn Féin.

Eh?? The only real success they had was Finucane who needed everyone else to withdraw from the race so he could win.

Otherwise they've seen their vote share drop across the board (more than the DUP actually) and a complete annihilation in Derry. . . hardly what you'd call a good election. It's not a catastrophe like the DUP but describing it as a good election is a stretch!!

Trailer set the criteria here...

Quote from: trailer on December 12, 2019, 04:44:51 PM
Quote from: naka on December 12, 2019, 04:14:28 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on December 12, 2019, 01:06:55 PM
Nationalism has a problem and even though demographics are trending towards a nationalist majority neither SF nor the SDLP are making ground. Alliance seem to be mopping ups that younger vote, so a UI is fading. Michelle O'Neill is a vote loser, talks too fast and is incoherent at best. O'Dowd would have been a better bet. The SDLP on the other hand despite the obvious ability of Eastwood can't stop coming across as Uncle Tom's.
tbf conor murphy is the natural leader of the shinners but for whatever reason he has been sidelined.
they need him leading as he is articulate and can easily defend his position without resorting the rancour.
sdlp might do better than we think in this election purely as a wake up call to the shinners not to take their electorate or granted

I certainly get the feeling the that SF in some constituencies will get a hit. If SF hold or even only lose one seat I think that can be called a very good election for them.

Even I didn't see the hammering in Derry and their vote share down across NI. It's a booting for their leadership, abstentionism and lack of work ethic.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on December 13, 2019, 10:07:34 AM
Quote from: Sportacus on December 13, 2019, 09:59:45 AM
Hanna and Eastwood will be articulate MPs who will explain the nationalist position in London very well.  All necessary to keep progressing towards a New Ireland.  In contrast, what is the point of MPs like Micky Brady and Francie Molloy.  I literally couldn't tell you what they do from one week to the next.

Who's going to be listening though?

Boris won't give a shit.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on December 13, 2019, 10:11:25 AM
Quote from: hardstation on December 13, 2019, 10:05:04 AM
Quote from: trailer on December 13, 2019, 10:01:40 AM
Quote from: hardstation on December 13, 2019, 09:33:29 AM
Quote from: trailer on December 13, 2019, 08:21:49 AM
SF and The DUP routed. A clear message sent. Get back to work.
More nationalist MPs yes, but a broad spectrum. Claire Hanna isn't in the same circles as Mickey Brady. But a good night for progressive positive politics.
It was a very good election for Sinn Féin.

Not even SF think this was a good election for them.
But you do. You said it twice.

Vote share down 6.7%

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 13, 2019, 10:13:04 AM
Abstentionism during the negotiations for a UI would be unforgivable
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on December 13, 2019, 10:13:09 AM
Quote from: hardstation on December 13, 2019, 10:09:25 AM
Quote from: trailer on December 13, 2019, 10:06:35 AM
Quote from: hardstation on December 13, 2019, 09:49:52 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 09:46:22 AM
Quote from: hardstation on December 13, 2019, 09:33:29 AM
Quote from: trailer on December 13, 2019, 08:21:49 AM
SF and The DUP routed. A clear message sent. Get back to work.
More nationalist MPs yes, but a broad spectrum. Claire Hanna isn't in the same circles as Mickey Brady. But a good night for progressive positive politics.
It was a very good election for Sinn Féin.

Eh?? The only real success they had was Finucane who needed everyone else to withdraw from the race so he could win.

Otherwise they've seen their vote share drop across the board (more than the DUP actually) and a complete annihilation in Derry. . . hardly what you'd call a good election. It's not a catastrophe like the DUP but describing it as a good election is a stretch!!

Trailer set the criteria here...

Quote from: trailer on December 12, 2019, 04:44:51 PM
Quote from: naka on December 12, 2019, 04:14:28 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on December 12, 2019, 01:06:55 PM
Nationalism has a problem and even though demographics are trending towards a nationalist majority neither SF nor the SDLP are making ground. Alliance seem to be mopping ups that younger vote, so a UI is fading. Michelle O'Neill is a vote loser, talks too fast and is incoherent at best. O'Dowd would have been a better bet. The SDLP on the other hand despite the obvious ability of Eastwood can't stop coming across as Uncle Tom's.
tbf conor murphy is the natural leader of the shinners but for whatever reason he has been sidelined.
they need him leading as he is articulate and can easily defend his position without resorting the rancour.
sdlp might do better than we think in this election purely as a wake up call to the shinners not to take their electorate or granted

I certainly get the feeling the that SF in some constituencies will get a hit. If SF hold or even only lose one seat I think that can be called a very good election for them.

Even I didn't see the hammering in Derry and their vote share down across NI. It's a booting for their leadership, abstentionism and lack of work ethic.
You set the criteria. They met them. Put the goalposts down.

There'll be some meeting in the felons club over this....
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Mourne Red on December 13, 2019, 10:18:18 AM
Normally a Shinner voter myself but changed to Alliance this election. I have found there's a lot of talk and not a lot of action from them these past few years. Also it's pretty hard to stomach some of the people they have standing for the party nowadays. Michelle is party leader in the North but Mary Lou clearly doesn;t trust her as she's holding her hand at every party event, if there are Assembly elections I'd expect a disaster for Sinn Fein vote sharewise.. Expect Finucane to replace Michelle in the next 5 years, party is stagnating and needs an overhaul 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 13, 2019, 10:25:12 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on December 13, 2019, 09:11:43 AM
Quote from: naka on December 12, 2019, 04:14:28 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on December 12, 2019, 01:06:55 PM
Nationalism has a problem and even though demographics are trending towards a nationalist majority neither SF nor the SDLP are making ground. Alliance seem to be mopping ups that younger vote, so a UI is fading. Michelle O'Neill is a vote loser, talks too fast and is incoherent at best. O'Dowd would have been a better bet. The SDLP on the other hand despite the obvious ability of Eastwood can't stop coming across as Uncle Tom's.
tbf conor murphy is the natural leader of the shinners but for whatever reason he has been sidelined.
they need him leading as he is articulate and can easily defend his position without resorting the rancour.
sdlp might do better than we think in this election purely as a wake up call to the shinners not to take their electorate or granted
Got it from a good source that Conor Murphy turned the leadership down. John O'Dowd or John Finucanne are probably the future. O'Neill puts me off SF, though I voted for them but that was more to do with not wanting to vote for Dolores Kelly who is worse than O'Neill. Colum Eastwood impresses me but he is alone in the SDLP.

Claire Hanna?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 13, 2019, 10:28:53 AM
Quote from: the_daddy on December 13, 2019, 09:42:59 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 07:51:06 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 13, 2019, 07:49:02 AM
SF vote seems well down % wise constituency by constituency (bar NB), not great either for the DUP. With knuckles firmly wrapped for both parties and influence gone in the UK the return of Stormont is a certainty.

Is it well down because of the pact?

The basic analysis would be the abortion issue as well as SF being bankers in most of the west led to a suppression of their core vote. There's also an issue of overall candidate quality which stems from nepotism within the party. Bar Finucane and Gildernew, the decent candidates are in Stormont rather than WM.
The kicking Eastwood gave McCallion was way beyond anything I ever expected though, there must have been a collective rolling of the eyes in Derry when she told them they were "going te party" after beating Durkan last time out.

White powder all the shop by all accounts
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Ambrose on December 13, 2019, 10:40:26 AM
Arlene Foster has said last night's election results have set the DUP back 'ten years' to 1680.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rois on December 13, 2019, 10:41:40 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on December 13, 2019, 10:07:34 AM
Quote from: Sportacus on December 13, 2019, 09:59:45 AM
Hanna and Eastwood will be articulate MPs who will explain the nationalist position in London very well.  All necessary to keep progressing towards a New Ireland.  In contrast, what is the point of MPs like Micky Brady and Francie Molloy.  I literally couldn't tell you what they do from one week to the next.

Who's going to be listening though?

Boris won't give a shit.
The Irish govt now hold *some" of the cards and the DUP are no longer in a position to stop whatever concession is needed on Ireland.  The link btw Varadkar/Coveney and the SDLP could be important.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on December 13, 2019, 10:46:12 AM
Quote from: trailer on November 29, 2019, 01:00:23 PM
The Tory campaign is well run and organised. Similar to the Leave.EU campaign. They're keeping Johnston out of the clutches of other leaders especially Sturgeon who would tear him another him. They are also keeping him away from the good interviewers, Neil, and others on Ch4. They've honed in on a few weaknesses in the Labour party policy and rammed it down the throats of the electorate. Brexit. Corbyn can't be trusted. Over and over and over again.

Labour on the other hand with their spending plans and wishy washy Brexit policy as well as Corbyn appear toxic.
Corbyn is a good man. Well meaning. But he has no charisma. And that is everything in this game. You have to be able to carry a crowd. I am no fan of Nigel Farage but their is no doubt that he has pushed the anti EU message in the UK for well over 20 years despite never having been elected to the HOC. He is box office and attracts a following. Corbyn attracts that studenty protesty type, grand people but not gonna get you elected.

This is the truth.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Sportacus on December 13, 2019, 10:49:44 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 13, 2019, 10:25:12 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on December 13, 2019, 09:11:43 AM
Quote from: naka on December 12, 2019, 04:14:28 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on December 12, 2019, 01:06:55 PM
Nationalism has a problem and even though demographics are trending towards a nationalist majority neither SF nor the SDLP are making ground. Alliance seem to be mopping ups that younger vote, so a UI is fading. Michelle O'Neill is a vote loser, talks too fast and is incoherent at best. O'Dowd would have been a better bet. The SDLP on the other hand despite the obvious ability of Eastwood can't stop coming across as Uncle Tom's.
tbf conor murphy is the natural leader of the shinners but for whatever reason he has been sidelined.
they need him leading as he is articulate and can easily defend his position without resorting the rancour.
sdlp might do better than we think in this election purely as a wake up call to the shinners not to take their electorate or granted
Got it from a good source that Conor Murphy turned the leadership down. John O'Dowd or John Finucanne are probably the future. O'Neill puts me off SF, though I voted for them but that was more to do with not wanting to vote for Dolores Kelly who is worse than O'Neill. Colum Eastwood impresses me but he is alone in the SDLP.

Claire Hanna?
Nichola Mallon?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: thewobbler on December 13, 2019, 10:51:29 AM
Corbyn's personality might have been an issue. But it's his politics that really hindered Labour.

It's arriving on me that England's deep culture is neither socialist nor liberal, and the only way for Tory opposition to compete is to largely mirror Tory policy, and make it a personality contest.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 11:05:08 AM
Anyone heard the girl from Momentum on Piers Morgan this morning??

https://twitter.com/TheSun/status/1205401731988959233?s=20

Astonishing levels of ignorance on display and if this is the theme in the Labour Party they're fucked for a long long time. Contrary to belief there are real Labour voters who voted Conservative this time and it was much more than just Brexit!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Applesisapples on December 13, 2019, 11:06:46 AM
Quote from: Sportacus on December 13, 2019, 09:59:45 AM
Hanna and Eastwood will be articulate MPs who will explain the nationalist position in London very well.  All necessary to keep progressing towards a New Ireland.  In contrast, what is the point of MPs like Micky Brady and Francie Molloy.  I literally couldn't tell you what they do from one week to the next.
Eastwood yes, Hanna is ropey on detail, she has been nailed on Nolan more than once on Brexit.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on December 13, 2019, 11:07:27 AM
Quote from: Mourne Red on December 13, 2019, 10:18:18 AM
Normally a Shinner voter myself but changed to Alliance this election. I have found there's a lot of talk and not a lot of action from them these past few years. Also it's pretty hard to stomach some of the people they have standing for the party nowadays. Michelle is party leader in the North but Mary Lou clearly doesn;t trust her as she's holding her hand at every party event, if there are Assembly elections I'd expect a disaster for Sinn Fein vote sharewise.. Expect Finucane to replace Michelle in the next 5 years, party is stagnating and needs an overhaul
They need to dump Maryloo and O'Neill pronto and appoint proper leaders like Pearse Doherty and John Finucane.
Otherwise their  lá has imithe in the 26 and sloganeering won't be enough to hold their numbers in the 6.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Solo_run on December 13, 2019, 11:14:22 AM
I take it there will still be a border down the Irish sea?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 13, 2019, 11:18:15 AM
Quote from: Ambrose on December 13, 2019, 10:40:26 AM
Arlene Foster has said last night's election results have set the DUP back 'ten years' to 1680.

hahaha, very good.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 13, 2019, 11:26:48 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 13, 2019, 11:07:27 AM
Quote from: Mourne Red on December 13, 2019, 10:18:18 AM
Normally a Shinner voter myself but changed to Alliance this election. I have found there's a lot of talk and not a lot of action from them these past few years. Also it's pretty hard to stomach some of the people they have standing for the party nowadays. Michelle is party leader in the North but Mary Lou clearly doesn;t trust her as she's holding her hand at every party event, if there are Assembly elections I'd expect a disaster for Sinn Fein vote sharewise.. Expect Finucane to replace Michelle in the next 5 years, party is stagnating and needs an overhaul
They need to dump Maryloo and O'Neill pronto and appoint proper leaders like Pearse Doherty and John Finucane.
Otherwise their  lá has imithe in the 26 and sloganeering won't be enough to hold their numbers in the 6.


Sinn Fein badly need to evolve beyond being a protest party to a party of governance - they really are struggling. "Fight for your rights" sounds all good when your under the heel of an oppressor - but when your supposed to be the decision makers - then it is no longer relevant.


Those two clowns "in charge" are simply protestors with microphones unfortunately shoved in front of them too frequently.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on December 13, 2019, 11:30:02 AM
Quote from: trailer on December 13, 2019, 10:13:09 AM
Quote from: hardstation on December 13, 2019, 10:09:25 AM
Quote from: trailer on December 13, 2019, 10:06:35 AM
Quote from: hardstation on December 13, 2019, 09:49:52 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 09:46:22 AM
Quote from: hardstation on December 13, 2019, 09:33:29 AM
Quote from: trailer on December 13, 2019, 08:21:49 AM
SF and The DUP routed. A clear message sent. Get back to work.
More nationalist MPs yes, but a broad spectrum. Claire Hanna isn't in the same circles as Mickey Brady. But a good night for progressive positive politics.
It was a very good election for Sinn Féin.

Eh?? The only real success they had was Finucane who needed everyone else to withdraw from the race so he could win.

Otherwise they've seen their vote share drop across the board (more than the DUP actually) and a complete annihilation in Derry. . . hardly what you'd call a good election. It's not a catastrophe like the DUP but describing it as a good election is a stretch!!

Trailer set the criteria here...

Quote from: trailer on December 12, 2019, 04:44:51 PM
Quote from: naka on December 12, 2019, 04:14:28 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on December 12, 2019, 01:06:55 PM
Nationalism has a problem and even though demographics are trending towards a nationalist majority neither SF nor the SDLP are making ground. Alliance seem to be mopping ups that younger vote, so a UI is fading. Michelle O'Neill is a vote loser, talks too fast and is incoherent at best. O'Dowd would have been a better bet. The SDLP on the other hand despite the obvious ability of Eastwood can't stop coming across as Uncle Tom's.
tbf conor murphy is the natural leader of the shinners but for whatever reason he has been sidelined.
they need him leading as he is articulate and can easily defend his position without resorting the rancour.
sdlp might do better than we think in this election purely as a wake up call to the shinners not to take their electorate or granted

I certainly get the feeling the that SF in some constituencies will get a hit. If SF hold or even only lose one seat I think that can be called a very good election for them.

Even I didn't see the hammering in Derry and their vote share down across NI. It's a booting for their leadership, abstentionism and lack of work ethic.
You set the criteria. They met them. Put the goalposts down.

There'll be some meeting in the felons club over this....

not as famous as Eddies in the Welly park when he won WB back in the day.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on December 13, 2019, 11:31:52 AM
Quote from: Rois on December 13, 2019, 10:41:40 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on December 13, 2019, 10:07:34 AM
Quote from: Sportacus on December 13, 2019, 09:59:45 AM
Hanna and Eastwood will be articulate MPs who will explain the nationalist position in London very well.  All necessary to keep progressing towards a New Ireland.  In contrast, what is the point of MPs like Micky Brady and Francie Molloy.  I literally couldn't tell you what they do from one week to the next.

Who's going to be listening though?

Boris won't give a shit.
The Irish govt now hold *some" of the cards and the DUP are no longer in a position to stop whatever concession is needed on Ireland.  The link btw Varadkar/Coveney and the SDLP could be important.

Claire isn't a big fan of that as we all know.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Frank_The_Tank on December 13, 2019, 11:42:25 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on December 13, 2019, 11:31:52 AM
Quote from: Rois on December 13, 2019, 10:41:40 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on December 13, 2019, 10:07:34 AM
Quote from: Sportacus on December 13, 2019, 09:59:45 AM
Hanna and Eastwood will be articulate MPs who will explain the nationalist position in London very well.  All necessary to keep progressing towards a New Ireland.  In contrast, what is the point of MPs like Micky Brady and Francie Molloy.  I literally couldn't tell you what they do from one week to the next.

Who's going to be listening though?

Boris won't give a shit.
The Irish govt now hold *some" of the cards and the DUP are no longer in a position to stop whatever concession is needed on Ireland.  The link btw Varadkar/Coveney and the SDLP could be important.

Claire isn't a big fan of that as we all know.

Isn't the link between Fianna Fail (Michael Martin) and the SDLP - not Fine Gael (Varadkar/Coveney)
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rois on December 13, 2019, 11:54:00 AM
Quote from: Frank_The_Tank on December 13, 2019, 11:42:25 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on December 13, 2019, 11:31:52 AM
Quote from: Rois on December 13, 2019, 10:41:40 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on December 13, 2019, 10:07:34 AM
Quote from: Sportacus on December 13, 2019, 09:59:45 AM
Hanna and Eastwood will be articulate MPs who will explain the nationalist position in London very well.  All necessary to keep progressing towards a New Ireland.  In contrast, what is the point of MPs like Micky Brady and Francie Molloy.  I literally couldn't tell you what they do from one week to the next.

Who's going to be listening though?

Boris won't give a shit.
The Irish govt now hold *some" of the cards and the DUP are no longer in a position to stop whatever concession is needed on Ireland.  The link btw Varadkar/Coveney and the SDLP could be important.

Claire isn't a big fan of that as we all know.

Isn't the link between Fianna Fail (Michael Martin) and the SDLP - not Fine Gael (Varadkar/Coveney)
Big support for Claire Hanna from FG over her canvassing period, but I'm refer to Varadkar and Coveney in their roles as ministers in government and part of the negotiating team for the EU.  DUP had no motivation to interact and consult - the SDLP will. 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on December 13, 2019, 12:00:56 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 13, 2019, 09:03:02 AM
Good result for Nationalists seat wise due to the Brit 1st past the post system but still behind on votes (36% to 41%).
Aontu and Pbp want a UI so that will bring you up to the 40%  nationalism has been stick on for about 20 years. Its the unionist vote that is in a downward spiral plus Alliance are a totally differnt party now. 20 yrs ago they were defacto unionist now with brexit they will be open to anything.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on December 13, 2019, 12:05:00 PM
Quote from: Frank_The_Tank on December 13, 2019, 11:42:25 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on December 13, 2019, 11:31:52 AM
Quote from: Rois on December 13, 2019, 10:41:40 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on December 13, 2019, 10:07:34 AM
Quote from: Sportacus on December 13, 2019, 09:59:45 AM
Hanna and Eastwood will be articulate MPs who will explain the nationalist position in London very well.  All necessary to keep progressing towards a New Ireland.  In contrast, what is the point of MPs like Micky Brady and Francie Molloy.  I literally couldn't tell you what they do from one week to the next.

Who's going to be listening though?

Boris won't give a shit.
The Irish govt now hold *some" of the cards and the DUP are no longer in a position to stop whatever concession is needed on Ireland.  The link btw Varadkar/Coveney and the SDLP could be important.

Claire isn't a big fan of that as we all know.

Isn't the link between Fianna Fail (Michael Martin) and the SDLP - not Fine Gael (Varadkar/Coveney)

Apologies, it was Mark Durkan and his EU standings that threw me.

Need to do more homework.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Solo_run on December 13, 2019, 12:07:44 PM
Is Boris still going for a border down the Irish sea or can this be changed?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on December 13, 2019, 12:10:30 PM
Quote from: JPGJOHNNYG on December 13, 2019, 12:00:56 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 13, 2019, 09:03:02 AM
Good result for Nationalists seat wise due to the Brit 1st past the post system but still behind on votes (36% to 41%).
Aontu and Pbp want a UI so that will bring you up to the 40%  nationalism has been stick on for about 20 years. Its the unionist vote that is in a downward spiral plus Alliance are a totally differnt party now. 20 yrs ago they were defacto unionist now with brexit they will be open to anything.
That middle 20 needs to be encouraged towards  an All Ireland view of things.
Now that Johnson has got his big majority  how capable is he of going beyond sloganeering and actually running a State?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 12:11:03 PM
Quote from: Solo_run on December 13, 2019, 12:07:44 PM
Is Boris still going for a border down the Irish sea or can this be changed?

Has it not been written in law? Why rock the boat go with what was agreed as being the best deal?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 13, 2019, 12:26:22 PM
Quote from: Solo_run on December 13, 2019, 12:07:44 PM
Is Boris still going for a border down the Irish sea or can this be changed?

It can be changed - but if anything it'll become a harder border down the Irish sea so he can take England off in a different direction easier.

Ceding to the EU on Irish integration will mean a win for him somewhere else in the negotiations... and the EU are attaching far more weight to the Irish problem than pretty much anything else.


------------------------
I can see the following happening

#1. Q1 2020 - Exit declaration passed. UK leaves EU.


#2.
If Boris wants to:
- meet his 12 month deadline,
- keep ERG happy
- retain independence from EU for future negotiations with others for trade deals
That means the future relationship negotiations between UK and EU will be brutal. With very little harmony in rights, standards and policies.


#3.
That will lead to an economic slump in the UK. With a corresponding savaging of public services.


#4.
Which will be further exacerbated by desperately bad trade deals done elsewhere (i.e. with US) leaving UK public services open to manipulation by these outside parties.


#5.
With infrastructure and services crumbling in NI, the majority will seek a border poll. It will pass easily and with relatively little violence. The EU will pump money into Ireland like Germany at unification to stabilise the economic hangover from Brexit.


#6.
Scotland will seek independence and will seek to join the EU.




It largely hinges on #2 - but I've explained my rationale for that conclusion... but he is that big a liar and acts in self-interest only, so its hard to know what he'd do.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: magpie seanie on December 13, 2019, 12:27:04 PM
Personally quite gutted at the results in England and Wales. It's clear this was about Brexit and the people in those areas are steadfastly determined to jump off the cliff. I find it astonishing but I can understand it given the wall to wall coverage it has received.

As usual some unfair and inaccurate comment on Corbyn. I think he has done a tremendous job in making Labour stand for something again. I believe completely in the policies put forward and I know they are the only solution to growing wealth inequality, the jobs timebomb and the climate crisis. Eventually the people will realise this - hopefully before it's too late. I don't think he lost the election on his policy platform - the policies are popular. Brexit meant all bets were off. The Tories, like Trump in 2016, worked out what had to be said to win and the did it relentlessly. A winning strategy perhaps but that's a sad reflection on where we're at I'd say. Corbyn will go but Labour must stay the course with a modern social democratic alternative. Nothing worse than a country with two main parties offering the same.

The silver lining to the cloud is that a United Ireland is closer. I only hope and pray when it comes about we've moved away from the Varadkar/Murphy Tory style politics on this island and our kids get the United Ireland that brave people a century ago envisioned. 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 12:34:37 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on December 13, 2019, 12:27:04 PM
Personally quite gutted at the results in England and Wales. It's clear this was about Brexit and the people in those areas are steadfastly determined to jump off the cliff. I find it astonishing but I can understand it given the wall to wall coverage it has received.

As usual some unfair and inaccurate comment on Corbyn. I think he has done a tremendous job in making Labour stand for something again. I believe completely in the policies put forward and I know they are the only solution to growing wealth inequality, the jobs timebomb and the climate crisis. Eventually the people will realise this - hopefully before it's too late. I don't think he lost the election on his policy platform - the policies are popular. Brexit meant all bets were off. The Tories, like Trump in 2016, worked out what had to be said to win and the did it relentlessly. A winning strategy perhaps but that's a sad reflection on where we're at I'd say. Corbyn will go but Labour must stay the course with a modern social democratic alternative. Nothing worse than a country with two main parties offering the same.

The silver lining to the cloud is that a United Ireland is closer. I only hope and pray when it comes about we've moved away from the Varadkar/Murphy Tory style politics on this island and our kids get the United Ireland that brave people a century ago envisioned. 

It's not inaccurate seanie Corbyn was/is a disaster and if the Labour party blame this defeat solely on Brexit they will never recover. Corbyn may well stand for something (Farage and Tommy Robinson stand for plenty too) and that's fine but the public don't want it so either they package up the same policies but get somebody better to sell them to the public or they need to change tack altogether!!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on December 13, 2019, 12:40:51 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on December 13, 2019, 12:27:04 PM
The silver lining to the cloud is that a United Ireland is closer. I only hope and pray when it comes about we've moved away from the Varadkar/Murphy Tory style politics on this island and our kids get the United Ireland that brave people a century ago envisioned.

Sorry, I can't ever see North Down voting for a united Ireland.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Mourne Red on December 13, 2019, 12:44:13 PM
Quote from: five points on December 13, 2019, 12:40:51 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on December 13, 2019, 12:27:04 PM
The silver lining to the cloud is that a United Ireland is closer. I only hope and pray when it comes about we've moved away from the Varadkar/Murphy Tory style politics on this island and our kids get the United Ireland that brave people a century ago envisioned.

Sorry, I can't ever see North Down voting for a united Ireland.

Just as well there is more than North Down in the 6 Counties then....
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 12:46:49 PM
Quote from: five points on December 13, 2019, 12:40:51 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on December 13, 2019, 12:27:04 PM
The silver lining to the cloud is that a United Ireland is closer. I only hope and pray when it comes about we've moved away from the Varadkar/Murphy Tory style politics on this island and our kids get the United Ireland that brave people a century ago envisioned.

Sorry, I can't ever see North Down voting for a united Ireland.

Nor Ballymena or east Belfast but I'd imagine it'll be a a straight poll and anything over 50% will be enough. Though it's at least 10 years away in my opinion
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on December 13, 2019, 12:52:50 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on December 13, 2019, 12:27:04 PM
Personally quite gutted at the results in England and Wales. It's clear this was about Brexit and the people in those areas are steadfastly determined to jump off the cliff. I find it astonishing but I can understand it given the wall to wall coverage it has received.

As usual some unfair and inaccurate comment on Corbyn. I think he has done a tremendous job in making Labour stand for something again. I believe completely in the policies put forward and I know they are the only solution to growing wealth inequality, the jobs timebomb and the climate crisis. Eventually the people will realise this - hopefully before it's too late. I don't think he lost the election on his policy platform - the policies are popular. Brexit meant all bets were off. The Tories, like Trump in 2016, worked out what had to be said to win and the did it relentlessly. A winning strategy perhaps but that's a sad reflection on where we're at I'd say. Corbyn will go but Labour must stay the course with a modern social democratic alternative. Nothing worse than a country with two main parties offering the same.

The silver lining to the cloud is that a United Ireland is closer. I only hope and pray when it comes about we've moved away from the Varadkar/Murphy Tory style politics on this island and our kids get the United Ireland that brave people a century ago envisioned.

Is this satire ?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on December 13, 2019, 12:54:34 PM
A fantastic result for democracy and Brexit will be complete and the start of the collapse of the EU commences.

A great day for English Nationalism and Scottish Nationalism.

reading this board and other media feed, it appears the "Irish" Nationalists up north are not happy.....if a United Ireland is to materialise it will come as a cost and there will be victims along the way.....trouble is I think the "Nationists" in the north are Me Feiners as opposed to Sinn Feiners...in that they only want a smooth transition to a UI and anything the involves pain, count them out.

The UK ballot box has put the champagne socialists, the multi culturalists, the open border campaigners and the anti-nation staters out on their arses.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on December 13, 2019, 01:12:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 12:46:49 PM
Nor Ballymena or east Belfast but I'd imagine it'll be a a straight poll and anything over 50% will be enough. Though it's at least 10 years away in my opinion
You can add a zero to that, in my opinion. In the meantime, DUP voters switching to Alliance doesn't change anything.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Maroon Manc on December 13, 2019, 01:12:38 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 12:34:37 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on December 13, 2019, 12:27:04 PM
Personally quite gutted at the results in England and Wales. It's clear this was about Brexit and the people in those areas are steadfastly determined to jump off the cliff. I find it astonishing but I can understand it given the wall to wall coverage it has received.

As usual some unfair and inaccurate comment on Corbyn. I think he has done a tremendous job in making Labour stand for something again. I believe completely in the policies put forward and I know they are the only solution to growing wealth inequality, the jobs timebomb and the climate crisis. Eventually the people will realise this - hopefully before it's too late. I don't think he lost the election on his policy platform - the policies are popular. Brexit meant all bets were off. The Tories, like Trump in 2016, worked out what had to be said to win and the did it relentlessly. A winning strategy perhaps but that's a sad reflection on where we're at I'd say. Corbyn will go but Labour must stay the course with a modern social democratic alternative. Nothing worse than a country with two main parties offering the same.

The silver lining to the cloud is that a United Ireland is closer. I only hope and pray when it comes about we've moved away from the Varadkar/Murphy Tory style politics on this island and our kids get the United Ireland that brave people a century ago envisioned. 

It's not inaccurate seanie Corbyn was/is a disaster and if the Labour party blame this defeat solely on Brexit they will never recover. Corbyn may well stand for something (Farage and Tommy Robinson stand for plenty too) and that's fine but the public don't want it so either they package up the same policies but get somebody better to sell them to the public or they need to change tack altogether!!

Correct, would be very arrogant to think its solely about Brexit. Interesting times ahead for the Labour party, the powers that be will want Corbyn to hang around whilst they maintain control.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on December 13, 2019, 01:21:36 PM
Anyone able to say when Labour last won a majority of English seats ?
There are 99 in Scotland and Wales 60-70 of which used to go to Labour in the old days enabling them to win a GE without having to win in England.
As for the blue collar workers voting for the party who put them in the excrement in the first place.....🙄
Obviously think Brexit is a magic bullet that will make them all great again.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Maroon Manc on December 13, 2019, 01:26:31 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 13, 2019, 01:21:36 PM
Anyone able to say when Labour last won a majority of English seats ?
There are 99 in Scotland and Wales 60-70 of which used to go to Labour in the old days enabling them to win a GE without having to win in England.
As for the blue collar workers voting for the party who put them in the excrement in the first place.....🙄
Obviously think Brexit is a magic bullet that will make them all great again.

Labour won over 400 seats in both 97 and 2001 whilst the Tories were around 160 in both elections so would have been then.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 13, 2019, 01:30:45 PM
Quote from: five points on December 13, 2019, 12:40:51 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on December 13, 2019, 12:27:04 PM
The silver lining to the cloud is that a United Ireland is closer. I only hope and pray when it comes about we've moved away from the Varadkar/Murphy Tory style politics on this island and our kids get the United Ireland that brave people a century ago envisioned.

Sorry, I can't ever see North Down voting for a united Ireland.
IRFU areas would be more likely to agree than IFA areas, surely
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on December 13, 2019, 01:38:40 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 13, 2019, 01:30:45 PM
Quote from: five points on December 13, 2019, 12:40:51 PM
Sorry, I can't ever see North Down voting for a united Ireland.
IRFU areas would be more likely to agree than IFA areas, surely

In theory, yes. In practice, when push comes to shove, hard to see it happening.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on December 13, 2019, 01:40:15 PM
Quote from: Solo_run on December 13, 2019, 12:07:44 PM
Is Boris still going for a border down the Irish sea or can this be changed?

Will Douglas become the new Crossmaglen?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 01:46:39 PM
Quote from: five points on December 13, 2019, 01:12:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 12:46:49 PM
Nor Ballymena or east Belfast but I'd imagine it'll be a a straight poll and anything over 50% will be enough. Though it's at least 10 years away in my opinion
You can add a zero to that, in my opinion. In the meantime, DUP voters switching to Alliance doesn't change anything.

Sorry what I meant to say, was that was just to have a poll, I can't see it being passed first or second time around
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 13, 2019, 01:50:40 PM
Quote from: five points on December 13, 2019, 12:40:51 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on December 13, 2019, 12:27:04 PM
The silver lining to the cloud is that a United Ireland is closer. I only hope and pray when it comes about we've moved away from the Varadkar/Murphy Tory style politics on this island and our kids get the United Ireland that brave people a century ago envisioned.

Sorry, I can't ever see North Down voting for a united Ireland.

You don't know your history very well.

Where did the* United Irishmen come from?

*ok, a significant proportion of.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 13, 2019, 01:52:11 PM
Quote from: five points on December 13, 2019, 01:38:40 PM
In theory, yes. In practice, when push comes to shove, hard to see it happening.

In practice - when it comes to putting food on the table - it is easy to see it happening.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Denn Forever on December 13, 2019, 01:56:43 PM
Iv all the non tories voted as a single bloc. would they have enough to vote down a gov. bill?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 02:00:32 PM
Quote from: Denn Forever on December 13, 2019, 01:56:43 PM
Iv all the non tories voted as a single bloc. would they have enough to vote down a gov. bill?

Sure there are Tories that are pro remain
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Mourne Red on December 13, 2019, 02:02:42 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 01:46:39 PM
Quote from: five points on December 13, 2019, 01:12:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 12:46:49 PM
Nor Ballymena or east Belfast but I'd imagine it'll be a a straight poll and anything over 50% will be enough. Though it's at least 10 years away in my opinion
You can add a zero to that, in my opinion. In the meantime, DUP voters switching to Alliance doesn't change anything.

Sorry what I meant to say, was that was just to have a poll, I can't see it being passed first or second time around

Milltown out of curiosity what do you think the % would be in a border poll??
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 02:05:22 PM
Saw a great tweet earlier:

YET MORE ANIT CORBYN BIAS FROM THE ELECTORATE

Sums it up fairly well.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Itchy on December 13, 2019, 02:05:28 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on December 13, 2019, 12:27:04 PM
Personally quite gutted at the results in England and Wales. It's clear this was about Brexit and the people in those areas are steadfastly determined to jump off the cliff. I find it astonishing but I can understand it given the wall to wall coverage it has received.

As usual some unfair and inaccurate comment on Corbyn. I think he has done a tremendous job in making Labour stand for something again. I believe completely in the policies put forward and I know they are the only solution to growing wealth inequality, the jobs timebomb and the climate crisis. Eventually the people will realise this - hopefully before it's too late. I don't think he lost the election on his policy platform - the policies are popular. Brexit meant all bets were off. The Tories, like Trump in 2016, worked out what had to be said to win and the did it relentlessly. A winning strategy perhaps but that's a sad reflection on where we're at I'd say. Corbyn will go but Labour must stay the course with a modern social democratic alternative. Nothing worse than a country with two main parties offering the same.

The silver lining to the cloud is that a United Ireland is closer. I only hope and pray when it comes about we've moved away from the Varadkar/Murphy Tory style politics on this island and our kids get the United Ireland that brave people a century ago envisioned.

Its not about Brexit, its about racism and the uneducated little englander blaming Johnny Foreigner for all his woes.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 02:05:51 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 02:00:32 PM
Quote from: Denn Forever on December 13, 2019, 01:56:43 PM
Iv all the non tories voted as a single bloc. would they have enough to vote down a gov. bill?

Sure there are Tories that are pro remain

Not anymore!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 02:08:49 PM
Quote from: Mourne Red on December 13, 2019, 02:02:42 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 01:46:39 PM
Quote from: five points on December 13, 2019, 01:12:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 12:46:49 PM
Nor Ballymena or east Belfast but I'd imagine it'll be a a straight poll and anything over 50% will be enough. Though it's at least 10 years away in my opinion
You can add a zero to that, in my opinion. In the meantime, DUP voters switching to Alliance doesn't change anything.

Sorry what I meant to say, was that was just to have a poll, I can't see it being passed first or second time around

Milltown out of curiosity what do you think the % would be in a border poll??

Difficult to predict, you are in the reality of a sectarian head count and who'll win those middle ground unionists votes and happy where they are catholic's !

The first poll could be as bad as 60/40.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Mourne Red on December 13, 2019, 02:11:18 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 02:08:49 PM
Quote from: Mourne Red on December 13, 2019, 02:02:42 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 01:46:39 PM
Quote from: five points on December 13, 2019, 01:12:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 12:46:49 PM
Nor Ballymena or east Belfast but I'd imagine it'll be a a straight poll and anything over 50% will be enough. Though it's at least 10 years away in my opinion
You can add a zero to that, in my opinion. In the meantime, DUP voters switching to Alliance doesn't change anything.

Sorry what I meant to say, was that was just to have a poll, I can't see it being passed first or second time around

Milltown out of curiosity what do you think the % would be in a border poll??

Difficult to predict, you are in the reality of a sectarian head count and who'll win those middle ground unionists votes and happy where they are catholic's !

The first poll could be as bad as 60/40.


I was thinking around those figures myself, if that's the case could be a couple of generations before a United Ireland would be good odds to happen - Probably comes down too where people are going to get the most money from?

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 02:16:13 PM
Quote from: Mourne Red on December 13, 2019, 02:11:18 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 02:08:49 PM
Quote from: Mourne Red on December 13, 2019, 02:02:42 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 01:46:39 PM
Quote from: five points on December 13, 2019, 01:12:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 12:46:49 PM
Nor Ballymena or east Belfast but I'd imagine it'll be a a straight poll and anything over 50% will be enough. Though it's at least 10 years away in my opinion
You can add a zero to that, in my opinion. In the meantime, DUP voters switching to Alliance doesn't change anything.

Sorry what I meant to say, was that was just to have a poll, I can't see it being passed first or second time around

Milltown out of curiosity what do you think the % would be in a border poll??

Difficult to predict, you are in the reality of a sectarian head count and who'll win those middle ground unionists votes and happy where they are catholic's !

The first poll could be as bad as 60/40.


I was thinking around those figures myself, if that's the case could be a couple of generations before a United Ireland would be good odds to happen - Probably comes down too where people are going to get the most money from?

I think money is a factor, but can you imagine being an Irishman, going to the polling station and placing that x in they stay box? There's no way you can look at yourself in the mirror after that without feeling a little ashamed, so there would be some last minute decisions on the day
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Tony Baloney on December 13, 2019, 02:18:18 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 13, 2019, 02:05:28 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on December 13, 2019, 12:27:04 PM
Personally quite gutted at the results in England and Wales. It's clear this was about Brexit and the people in those areas are steadfastly determined to jump off the cliff. I find it astonishing but I can understand it given the wall to wall coverage it has received.

As usual some unfair and inaccurate comment on Corbyn. I think he has done a tremendous job in making Labour stand for something again. I believe completely in the policies put forward and I know they are the only solution to growing wealth inequality, the jobs timebomb and the climate crisis. Eventually the people will realise this - hopefully before it's too late. I don't think he lost the election on his policy platform - the policies are popular. Brexit meant all bets were off. The Tories, like Trump in 2016, worked out what had to be said to win and the did it relentlessly. A winning strategy perhaps but that's a sad reflection on where we're at I'd say. Corbyn will go but Labour must stay the course with a modern social democratic alternative. Nothing worse than a country with two main parties offering the same.

The silver lining to the cloud is that a United Ireland is closer. I only hope and pray when it comes about we've moved away from the Varadkar/Murphy Tory style politics on this island and our kids get the United Ireland that brave people a century ago envisioned.

Its not about Brexit, its about racism and the uneducated little englander blaming Johnny Foreigner for all his woes.
Corbyn's policies were so popular he lost the election by a massive margin! A hard left Labour is going nowhere fast. Only a centre left Labour will be returned to power anytime soon. They should write this off as a failed experiment.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 13, 2019, 02:19:00 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 02:08:49 PM
Quote from: Mourne Red on December 13, 2019, 02:02:42 PM
Milltown out of curiosity what do you think the % would be in a border poll??

Difficult to predict, you are in the reality of a sectarian head count and who'll win those middle ground unionists votes and happy where they are catholic's !

The first poll could be as bad as 60/40.

I think the main obstacles to swing voters UI in any border poll right now would be:

1 NHS
2 Cost of living increase
3 Fear of job security for private sector
4 Fear of job security for public sector

Are there any others?  [I've split 3 & 4 as they are driven by different factors]


Conceivably:
1. Boris could be about to sell the NHS out to the yanks. That'll f**k the NHS before taking into account tory cuts (especially tory cuts to areas that are not tory voting england)
2. He could be about to fire up tariffs and trade borders which will increase the cost of living.
3. Those tariffs and borders will lead to job losses in private sector.
4. They had on the side of a bus "We send £10 billion a year to the EU, lets fund our NHS instead" - how hard is it to paint out EU and write up NI on the same bus? The starting point to that would be public sector job cuts.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on December 13, 2019, 02:20:21 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 13, 2019, 01:52:11 PM
Quote from: five points on December 13, 2019, 01:38:40 PM
In theory, yes. In practice, when push comes to shove, hard to see it happening.

In practice - when it comes to putting food on the table - it is easy to see it happening.

Rugby types rarely have to worry about putting food on the table.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 13, 2019, 02:21:52 PM
Quote from: five points on December 13, 2019, 02:20:21 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 13, 2019, 01:52:11 PM
Quote from: five points on December 13, 2019, 01:38:40 PM
In theory, yes. In practice, when push comes to shove, hard to see it happening.

In practice - when it comes to putting food on the table - it is easy to see it happening.

Rugby types rarely have to worry about putting food on the table.

Are you for real?

Get your head out of your hole.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on December 13, 2019, 02:26:27 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 13, 2019, 02:21:52 PM
Are you for real?

Get your head out of your hole.

:o
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 02:27:14 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 13, 2019, 02:19:00 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 02:08:49 PM
Quote from: Mourne Red on December 13, 2019, 02:02:42 PM
Milltown out of curiosity what do you think the % would be in a border poll??

Difficult to predict, you are in the reality of a sectarian head count and who'll win those middle ground unionists votes and happy where they are catholic's !

The first poll could be as bad as 60/40.

I think the main obstacles to swing voters UI in any border poll right now would be:

1 NHS
2 Cost of living increase
3 Fear of job security for private sector
4 Fear of job security for public sector

Are there any others?  [I've split 3 & 4 as they are driven by different factors]


Conceivably:
1. Boris could be about to sell the NHS out to the yanks. That'll f**k the NHS before taking into account tory cuts (especially tory cuts to areas that are not tory voting england)
2. He could be about to fire up tariffs and trade borders which will increase the cost of living.
3. Those tariffs and borders will lead to job losses in private sector.
4. They had on the side of a bus "We send £10 billion a year to the EU, lets fund our NHS instead" - how hard is it to paint out EU and write up NI on the same bus? The starting point to that would be public sector job cuts.

You've left out ones who are reliant on benefits, free housing, pensions and so on.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 13, 2019, 02:27:46 PM
Quote from: five points on December 13, 2019, 02:26:27 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 13, 2019, 02:21:52 PM
Are you for real?

Get your head out of your hole.

:o

Do you honestly think folks that go along to rugby matches don't have the same living problems everyone else does?

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on December 13, 2019, 02:29:58 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 13, 2019, 02:19:00 PM

I think the main obstacles to swing voters UI in any border poll right now would be:

1 NHS
2 Cost of living increase
3 Fear of job security for private sector
4 Fear of job security for public sector

Are there any others?  [I've split 3 & 4 as they are driven by different factors]
All good points. The NHS one particularly, the southern health service is in rag order and won't be getting better anytime soon.

Quote

Conceivably:
1. Boris could be about to sell the NHS out to the yanks. That'll f**k the NHS before taking into account tory cuts (especially tory cuts to areas that are not tory voting england)
2. He could be about to fire up tariffs and trade borders which will increase the cost of living.
3. Those tariffs and borders will lead to job losses in private sector.
4. They had on the side of a bus "We send £10 billion a year to the EU, lets fund our NHS instead" - how hard is it to paint out EU and write up NI on the same bus? The starting point to that would be public sector job cuts.

Nos. 1 to 3 would all be irrational actions. No rational leader goes out deliberately to screw the people who put him there.

No. 4 is possible in theory but in practice GB exiting NI would cost them a fortune.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 13, 2019, 02:30:45 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 02:27:14 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 13, 2019, 02:19:00 PM
I think the main obstacles to swing voters UI in any border poll right now would be:

1 NHS
2 Cost of living increase
3 Fear of job security for private sector
4 Fear of job security for public sector

Are there any others?  [I've split 3 & 4 as they are driven by different factors]


Conceivably:
1. Boris could be about to sell the NHS out to the yanks. That'll f**k the NHS before taking into account tory cuts (especially tory cuts to areas that are not tory voting england)
2. He could be about to fire up tariffs and trade borders which will increase the cost of living.
3. Those tariffs and borders will lead to job losses in private sector.
4. They had on the side of a bus "We send £10 billion a year to the EU, lets fund our NHS instead" - how hard is it to paint out EU and write up NI on the same bus? The starting point to that would be public sector job cuts.

You've left out ones who are reliant on benefits, free housing, pensions and so on.

Good point.

But I think that probably would be dealt with under the same as (4). If Johnson is getting it tight at home, he ain't gonna be pandering to folks in NI for benefits.


Regarding public sector pensions - any deal for a UI will involve the UK continuing to remain responsible for public sector pension accrued during service to the UK. If you emigrate to another country after working in your original country's public sector - your pension isn't funded by where you arrive at.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on December 13, 2019, 02:33:23 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 13, 2019, 02:27:46 PM
Quote from: five points on December 13, 2019, 02:26:27 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 13, 2019, 02:21:52 PM
Are you for real?

Get your head out of your hole.

:o

Do you honestly think folks that go along to rugby matches don't have the same living problems everyone else does?

Calm down. It wasnt me who introduced the distinction here between "IRFU areas" and "IFA areas".
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: weareros on December 13, 2019, 02:34:26 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 02:08:49 PM
Quote from: Mourne Red on December 13, 2019, 02:02:42 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 01:46:39 PM
Quote from: five points on December 13, 2019, 01:12:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 12:46:49 PM
Nor Ballymena or east Belfast but I'd imagine it'll be a a straight poll and anything over 50% will be enough. Though it's at least 10 years away in my opinion
You can add a zero to that, in my opinion. In the meantime, DUP voters switching to Alliance doesn't change anything.

Sorry what I meant to say, was that was just to have a poll, I can't see it being passed first or second time around

Milltown out of curiosity what do you think the % would be in a border poll??

Difficult to predict, you are in the reality of a sectarian head count and who'll win those middle ground unionists votes and happy where they are catholic's !

The first poll could be as bad as 60/40.

Have to say I doubt that. With all the rallies the Unionists/Loyalists did in their town halls and their Ulster halls for this election, and still failed fairly miserably, it is hard to see how a Pro-UK vote would exceed 50%. While the overall nationalist vote is down, much of that can be attributed to conservative Catholics in rural areas not voting for the liberal nationalist parties. They came out in droves in the only two areas where they needed to do that: North Belfast and South Belfast. They would do the same for a border poll. The Unionist vote was not able to pull that off. Add to that the percentage of Alliance voters that would see a border poll as the only route back to EU. Then there's a few other factors, most notably that England and Scotland are going in their own separate nationalistic directions. I think a pro-UI vote would be as high as 55% if held in the morning and would match close enough the Brexit vote.But practically, the vote is 5-10 years away.




Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 13, 2019, 02:35:27 PM
Quote from: five points on December 13, 2019, 02:29:58 PM

All good points. The NHS one particularly, the southern health service is in rag order and won't be getting better anytime soon.

Quote

Conceivably:
1. Boris could be about to sell the NHS out to the yanks. That'll f**k the NHS before taking into account tory cuts (especially tory cuts to areas that are not tory voting england)
2. He could be about to fire up tariffs and trade borders which will increase the cost of living.
3. Those tariffs and borders will lead to job losses in private sector.
4. They had on the side of a bus "We send £10 billion a year to the EU, lets fund our NHS instead" - how hard is it to paint out EU and write up NI on the same bus? The starting point to that would be public sector job cuts.

Nos. 1 to 3 would all be irrational actions. No rational leader goes out deliberately to screw the people who put him there.

No. 4 is possible in theory but in practice GB exiting NI would cost them a fortune.

Leaving aside any questions over the rationality of Boris...

Tariffs are an inevitable consequence of Brexit. That is fundamentally the case.

They (the UK) are also in an incredibly weak negotiating position - and will be desperate to get off WTO schedules.

There will be tariffs and they will be sizeable. To deny this is to deny the rationale for the existence of the common market in the first place.


To negotiate otherwise means they are mirroring EU regulations (including freedom of movement) which is what the ERG etc don't want. 2 & 3 are unavoidable at this point. 1 depends on any deal with the USA and how traditional tory policies on healthcare bear out.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on December 13, 2019, 02:35:39 PM
SF need to stand back and have a serious look at themselves as well. As long as Mary-Lou and esp. Michelle O'Neill are leading the party I think they will continue to shed votes. I have wanted to see a UI all my life but long runs the fox. Michelle beating on every 2 minutes about a border poll is not helping SF win voters in the middle ground. She needs to wind her neck in and play the game instead of trying to shortcut everything. John Finucane would IMO be an excellent leader for SF in the North.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on December 13, 2019, 02:42:10 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 13, 2019, 02:35:27 PM

Tariffs are an inevitable consequence of Brexit. That is fundamentally the case.

They (the UK) are also in an incredibly weak negotiating position - and will be desperate to get off WTO schedules.
...
1 depends on any deal with the USA and how traditional tory policies on healthcare bear out.
Places like Switzerland don't suffer crippling tariffs in trade with the EU.

The traditional tory policy on healthcare has been the NHS.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 13, 2019, 02:54:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 02:27:14 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 13, 2019, 02:19:00 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 02:08:49 PM
Quote from: Mourne Red on December 13, 2019, 02:02:42 PM
Milltown out of curiosity what do you think the % would be in a border poll??

Difficult to predict, you are in the reality of a sectarian head count and who'll win those middle ground unionists votes and happy where they are catholic's !

The first poll could be as bad as 60/40.

I think the main obstacles to swing voters UI in any border poll right now would be:

1 NHS
2 Cost of living increase
3 Fear of job security for private sector
4 Fear of job security for public sector

Are there any others?  [I've split 3 & 4 as they are driven by different factors]


Conceivably:
1. Boris could be about to sell the NHS out to the yanks. That'll f**k the NHS before taking into account tory cuts (especially tory cuts to areas that are not tory voting england)
2. He could be about to fire up tariffs and trade borders which will increase the cost of living.
3. Those tariffs and borders will lead to job losses in private sector.
4. They had on the side of a bus "We send £10 billion a year to the EU, lets fund our NHS instead" - how hard is it to paint out EU and write up NI on the same bus? The starting point to that would be public sector job cuts.

You've left out ones who are reliant on benefits, free housing, pensions and so on.
The NHS will be run down well below the level of the HSE over the next 5 years.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 13, 2019, 02:56:47 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on December 13, 2019, 02:18:18 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 13, 2019, 02:05:28 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on December 13, 2019, 12:27:04 PM
Personally quite gutted at the results in England and Wales. It's clear this was about Brexit and the people in those areas are steadfastly determined to jump off the cliff. I find it astonishing but I can understand it given the wall to wall coverage it has received.

As usual some unfair and inaccurate comment on Corbyn. I think he has done a tremendous job in making Labour stand for something again. I believe completely in the policies put forward and I know they are the only solution to growing wealth inequality, the jobs timebomb and the climate crisis. Eventually the people will realise this - hopefully before it's too late. I don't think he lost the election on his policy platform - the policies are popular. Brexit meant all bets were off. The Tories, like Trump in 2016, worked out what had to be said to win and the did it relentlessly. A winning strategy perhaps but that's a sad reflection on where we're at I'd say. Corbyn will go but Labour must stay the course with a modern social democratic alternative. Nothing worse than a country with two main parties offering the same.

The silver lining to the cloud is that a United Ireland is closer. I only hope and pray when it comes about we've moved away from the Varadkar/Murphy Tory style politics on this island and our kids get the United Ireland that brave people a century ago envisioned.

Its not about Brexit, its about racism and the uneducated little englander blaming Johnny Foreigner for all his woes.
Corbyn's policies were so popular he lost the election by a massive margin! A hard left Labour is going nowhere fast. Only a centre left Labour will be returned to power anytime soon. They should write this off as a failed experiment.
In 2008 nobody had any political answers to what was going on.
The next crash will be worse. It will involve most people losing their pensions.
I bet Labour would win then.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 13, 2019, 02:59:58 PM
Quote from: five points on December 13, 2019, 02:42:10 PM
Places like Switzerland don't suffer crippling tariffs in trade with the EU.

https://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/switzerland/index_en.htm

QuoteThe cornerstone of EU-Swiss relations is the Free Trade Agreement of 1972.

As a consequence of the rejection of the EEA membership in 1992, Switzerland and the EU agreed on a package of seven sectoral agreements signed in 1999 (known in Switzerland as "Bilaterals I"). These include: free movement of persons, technical trade barriers, public procurement, agriculture and air and land transport. In addition, a scientific research agreement fully associated Switzerland into the EU's framework research programmes.

Thats what I'm saying.

For the tories to go for that close an alignment is a significant U-turn. Its fundamentally against what the ERG want.


Quote from: five points on December 13, 2019, 02:42:10 PM
The traditional tory policy on healthcare has been the NHS.

There was a great BBC chart comparing historical investment in the NHS with the new conservatives.

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/12BE7/production/_109657767_nhsspending-nc.png

With an ageing population, that level of growth isn't going to work.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on December 13, 2019, 03:33:20 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 13, 2019, 02:19:00 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 02:08:49 PM
Quote from: Mourne Red on December 13, 2019, 02:02:42 PM
Milltown out of curiosity what do you think the % would be in a border poll??

Difficult to predict, you are in the reality of a sectarian head count and who'll win those middle ground unionists votes and happy where they are catholic's !

The first poll could be as bad as 60/40.

I think the main obstacles to swing voters UI in any border poll right now would be:

1 NHS
2 Cost of living increase
3 Fear of job security for private sector
4 Fear of job security for public sector

Are there any others?  [I've split 3 & 4 as they are driven by different factors]


Conceivably:
1. Boris could be about to sell the NHS out to the yanks. That'll f**k the NHS before taking into account tory cuts (especially tory cuts to areas that are not tory voting england)
2. He could be about to fire up tariffs and trade borders which will increase the cost of living.
3. Those tariffs and borders will lead to job losses in private sector.
4. They had on the side of a bus "We send £10 billion a year to the EU, lets fund our NHS instead" - how hard is it to paint out EU and write up NI on the same bus? The starting point to that would be public sector job cuts.

Those will all be important factors in winning a border poll. Now that the Tories have a fairly large majority the block grant will be curtailed or reduced and who knows what will happen with the NHS in the north but I can't see it improving very much anytime soon. The northern economy will continue to disintegrate further since Boris Johnson's deal is not a good one for the business community in hte north either generally speaking. The gap between wealth north and south will continue to grow. Costs of living are undoubtedly much higher in the south but this is more than offset by the amount of FDI and high tech jobs in and around Dublin and the NE corridor. Can the north NOT afford to reduce it's increasing dependency on a welfare based public sector economy. Will Westminster continue to fund it to it's current level to prop it up, it is a flawed economic model as it stands and at some point it must begin to stand on it's own two feet.     
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on December 13, 2019, 03:37:55 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on December 13, 2019, 03:33:20 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 13, 2019, 02:19:00 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 02:08:49 PM
Quote from: Mourne Red on December 13, 2019, 02:02:42 PM
Milltown out of curiosity what do you think the % would be in a border poll??

Difficult to predict, you are in the reality of a sectarian head count and who'll win those middle ground unionists votes and happy where they are catholic's !

The first poll could be as bad as 60/40.

I think the main obstacles to swing voters UI in any border poll right now would be:

1 NHS
2 Cost of living increase
3 Fear of job security for private sector
4 Fear of job security for public sector

Are there any others?  [I've split 3 & 4 as they are driven by different factors]


Conceivably:
1. Boris could be about to sell the NHS out to the yanks. That'll f**k the NHS before taking into account tory cuts (especially tory cuts to areas that are not tory voting england)
2. He could be about to fire up tariffs and trade borders which will increase the cost of living.
3. Those tariffs and borders will lead to job losses in private sector.
4. They had on the side of a bus "We send £10 billion a year to the EU, lets fund our NHS instead" - how hard is it to paint out EU and write up NI on the same bus? The starting point to that would be public sector job cuts.

Those will all be important factors in winning a border poll. Now that the Tories have a fairly large majority the block grant will be curtailed or reduced and who knows what will happen with the NHS in the north but I can't see it improving very much anytime soon. The northern economy will continue to disintegrate further since Boris Johnson's deal is not a good one for the business community in hte north either generally speaking. The gap between wealth north and south will continue to grow. Costs of living are undoubtedly much higher in the south but this is more than offset by the amount of FDI and high tech jobs in and around Dublin and the NE corridor. Can the north NOT afford to reduce it's increasing dependency on a welfare based public sector economy. Will Westminster continue to fund it to it's current level to prop it up, it is a flawed economic model as it stands and at some point it must begin to stand on it's own two feet.   

Austerity didn't hit here as hard as it did in the UK
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Armagh18 on December 13, 2019, 04:13:55 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on December 13, 2019, 09:59:45 AM
Hanna and Eastwood will be articulate MPs who will explain the nationalist position in London very well.  All necessary to keep progressing towards a New Ireland.  In contrast, what is the point of MPs like Micky Brady and Francie Molloy.  I literally couldn't tell you what they do from one week to the next.
Don't know Francie but Mickey a superb representative couldn't do enough for you.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on December 13, 2019, 04:19:52 PM
https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2019/1213/1098998-brexit-ireland/
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Crete Boom on December 13, 2019, 04:34:55 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 13, 2019, 04:19:52 PM
https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2019/1213/1098998-brexit-ireland/

DUP won't be happy!!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: thewobbler on December 13, 2019, 04:38:36 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on December 13, 2019, 04:13:55 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on December 13, 2019, 09:59:45 AM
Hanna and Eastwood will be articulate MPs who will explain the nationalist position in London very well.  All necessary to keep progressing towards a New Ireland.  In contrast, what is the point of MPs like Micky Brady and Francie Molloy.  I literally couldn't tell you what they do from one week to the next.
Don't know Francie but Mickey a superb representative couldn't do enough for you.

Representation is for local councillors.

MPs should lead.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on December 13, 2019, 04:46:31 PM
Corbyn has got his wish, we will be leaving the EU in January
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Solo_run on December 13, 2019, 05:28:01 PM
I wasn't born before the UK joining the EU so after Brexit result I wanted to learn about what it was like. My only real understanding of it was through how the media portrayed it - but lets face it, they can be trusted. So I took to the internet and read a few things on it. Afterwards, I thought there would be no chance of Britain leaving the UK but now it seems almost certain.

Anyway, if this is the future I am packing my bags.


Taken from Quora:

The UK was way behind other bigger European countries in terms of economical development. Reasons for that were damages of the war and huge political struggles within the UK, because UK had a socialist administration after the war, which was opposed by the industry. Big parts of the British economy were declining, for example the car industry which was one of the largest in Europe.

On the other hand UK was relying on its dominant role in the commonwealth, importing cheap agricultural products from Australia and New Zealand and exporting industrial goods to these countries. However, many crown colonies became independent after WW II.

Soon after the foundation of the EC in 1957 UK realized that hey would be better off as a EC member, so they tried hard to join the EC. In fact it was French president Charles de Gaulle who used his political weight to block these attempts. He did not want to have UK play an important role in the EC - and the German administrations in the 60's did not want to disturb the relationship with France (The whole EC idea is based on the Montan-Union, a plan to put together German and French coal and steel industry in order to overcome the German-French hatred of the past centuries. Initially the EC was a French idea, and de Gaulle wanted it to stay that way.

Situation changed at the end of the 60's, when de Gaulle left office in France and Germany got a new social-democrat chancellor Willy Brandt.

tldnr: UK had serious economical troubles in the 60's and 70's and would have joined the EC earlier, but France refused to accept them.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on December 13, 2019, 05:46:01 PM
Quote from: Solo_run on December 13, 2019, 05:28:01 PM
I wasn't born before the UK joining the EU so after Brexit result I wanted to learn about what it was like. My only real understanding of it was through how the media portrayed it - but lets face it, they can be trusted. So I took to the internet and read a few things on it. Afterwards, I thought there would be no chance of Britain leaving the UK but now it seems almost certain.

Anyway, if this is the future I am packing my bags.


Taken from Quora:

The UK was way behind other bigger European countries in terms of economical development. Reasons for that were damages of the war and huge political struggles within the UK, because UK had a socialist administration after the war, which was opposed by the industry. Big parts of the British economy were declining, for example the car industry which was one of the largest in Europe.

On the other hand UK was relying on its dominant role in the commonwealth, importing cheap agricultural products from Australia and New Zealand and exporting industrial goods to these countries. However, many crown colonies became independent after WW II.

Soon after the foundation of the EC in 1957 UK realized that hey would be better off as a EC member, so they tried hard to join the EC. In fact it was French president Charles de Gaulle who used his political weight to block these attempts. He did not want to have UK play an important role in the EC - and the German administrations in the 60's did not want to disturb the relationship with France (The whole EC idea is based on the Montan-Union, a plan to put together German and French coal and steel industry in order to overcome the German-French hatred of the past centuries. Initially the EC was a French idea, and de Gaulle wanted it to stay that way.

Situation changed at the end of the 60's, when de Gaulle left office in France and Germany got a new social-democrat chancellor Willy Brandt.

tldnr: UK had serious economical troubles in the 60's and 70's and would have joined the EC earlier, but France refused to accept them.


I wouldn't be packing my bags on foot of a Quora article. Britain, in common with the major continental economies, did very well in the 1950 and 1960s.  When Prime Minister Harold Macmillan told them "You've never had it so good' in 1957, he wasn't far wrong. That was the era when huge numbers of destitute Irish did well for themselves in England.

The British car industry remained in good shape til the 70s and ironically EEC membership from 1973 was one of the factors that hastened its decline. The wheels only came off the economy in the 1970s when high costs, shoddy production and poor industrial relations did for its industrial base.

It's modern economy, based largely on services, is unrecognisable from then.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rudi on December 13, 2019, 05:54:28 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 02:05:22 PM
Saw a great tweet earlier:

YET MORE ANIT CORBYN BIAS FROM THE ELECTORATE

Sums it up fairly well.

Brilliant, the weakest leader of men ever. Sat on the fence time and time again.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Boycey on December 13, 2019, 06:27:25 PM
Does Wee Jamie ever sleep? His Twitter seems to operate around the clock.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 13, 2019, 06:29:16 PM
Quote from: Boycey on December 13, 2019, 06:27:25 PM
Does Wee Jamie ever sleep? His Twitter seems to operate around the clock.

The power of Buckfast my man.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on December 13, 2019, 06:39:36 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on December 13, 2019, 04:38:36 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on December 13, 2019, 04:13:55 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on December 13, 2019, 09:59:45 AM
Hanna and Eastwood will be articulate MPs who will explain the nationalist position in London very well.  All necessary to keep progressing towards a New Ireland.  In contrast, what is the point of MPs like Micky Brady and Francie Molloy.  I literally couldn't tell you what they do from one week to the next.
Don't know Francie but Mickey a superb representative couldn't do enough for you.

Representation is for local councillors.

MPs should lead.

Yes, Brady might be a good worker on the ground but he should not be standing as MP imo. A progressive candidate in the mould of Finucane would connect much better with younger voters, a statue could get elected under the SF banner in Newry and Armagh constituency.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: ardtole on December 13, 2019, 06:58:11 PM
I thought both Claire Hanna and John Finucane spoke very well after being elected. No triumphalism, humble as if they were on the beginning of a journey. Hanna was questioned if she was thankful for being the recipient of "borrowed votes", and she replied, "every vote is borrowed". I thought it was a great answer on the spot.

John Finucane was statesmanlike, didnt mention the dreadful poster campaign that his family was dragged into, he rose above the sectarian slandering that the dup tried to drag him into. He spoke of wanting to represent all of north Belfast, and sounded genuine. He has real leadership qualities and its surely only a matter of time before he replaces Oneill.

During the last leaders debate ( I actually thought she performed well) but at times I thought she was trying to control herself from laughing, did anyone else notice that?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: marty34 on December 13, 2019, 07:06:34 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 13, 2019, 07:42:50 AM
Quote from: TheOptimist on December 13, 2019, 06:15:41 AM
Not a bad night locally in end up. Some win for Eastwood, he got the message across well obviously. Have seen Dodds face yet, should be good to see  ;D

I told yous weeks ago on here Elisha do little was snookered, Derry people very indepentent and free thinking, jesus like who even are Paul Maskey and francie Malloy

Yous voted her in in the first place...lol.  She's a very poor candidate - Eastwood said he'll stop Brexit if elected: another waffler.

SDLP will be happy - back in the game with a free run in sth. Belfast and an open goal in Foyle with Mc Calllion taking selfies in hotel rooms and knocking doors mentioning debt collectors.  They'll take the oath and sit on the green benches and do nothing in fairness.

Generally, SF will publically be happy in saying they had a good election re: keeping seats except Derry/Strabane. Privately, they'll be saying, they got off lightly - vote down in places like sth. Down and west Belfast.  Could have been worse but they've got a boot in the backside and that should focus minds.  JF the one bright light - a genuinely good candidate but in the north, there are very few of them about - clever, well spoken and genuine.

DUP will be having meetings in the back rooms - led by their team in London and failed to read the mood in the wee 6.  Then when they knew the game was up, they still kept up with the little englander policy.  Very poor judgement by their leadership.

Alliance bouncing along nicely - some result by Farry, who comes across as a nice guy.  They be looking to make gains in west in council and assembly elections after this.  They've taken over the UU party as the soft unionist vote takers.  Have they a future?

Are Aontú finished? Abortion didn't seem to be an issue this election - will it be in the future?  Is the TUV finished as a party after pulling out and will we see just 1 unionist party from now on?

Was there 'vote lending' this election and will they go back in an assembly election and how it's a PR election could see a different set up in the final seats.  The times are a changing!

Belfast is now a nationalist city and that's a big blow for unionists who are now in the minorty mp wise for the first time - that's a huge blow for them for sure.  How will they react - will the treat us as equals or dig the trenches deeper?

What struck me, apart from John F, was the lack of quality candidates in all the parties - very weak in my opinion.  Not many in my opinion.  If I was in leadership, I'd go headhunting candidates from now on!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on December 13, 2019, 07:08:11 PM
Politicians ought to be magnanimous in victory & dignified in defeat. Very rarely that you could say that the DUP display either quality.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: marty34 on December 13, 2019, 07:17:45 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on December 13, 2019, 09:59:45 AM
Hanna and Eastwood will be articulate MPs who will explain the nationalist position in London very well.  All necessary to keep progressing towards a New Ireland.  In contrast, what is the point of MPs like Micky Brady and Francie Molloy.  I literally couldn't tell you what they do from one week to the next.

Hanna and Eastwood will make no difference in London - Eastwood said he'll stop Brexit, if elected. Good luck with that a chara! 

Hanna, on the other hand, is likeable but as they were saying on the radio today, she is too nice - full of general soundbites but where does she stand on a re-united Ireland etc.  Won't commit or rock the boat.  Be neutral and bei g everybody's friend won't go on forever.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on December 13, 2019, 07:20:37 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on December 13, 2019, 02:18:18 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 13, 2019, 02:05:28 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on December 13, 2019, 12:27:04 PM
Personally quite gutted at the results in England and Wales. It's clear this was about Brexit and the people in those areas are steadfastly determined to jump off the cliff. I find it astonishing but I can understand it given the wall to wall coverage it has received.

As usual some unfair and inaccurate comment on Corbyn. I think he has done a tremendous job in making Labour stand for something again. I believe completely in the policies put forward and I know they are the only solution to growing wealth inequality, the jobs timebomb and the climate crisis. Eventually the people will realise this - hopefully before it's too late. I don't think he lost the election on his policy platform - the policies are popular. Brexit meant all bets were off. The Tories, like Trump in 2016, worked out what had to be said to win and the did it relentlessly. A winning strategy perhaps but that's a sad reflection on where we're at I'd say. Corbyn will go but Labour must stay the course with a modern social democratic alternative. Nothing worse than a country with two main parties offering the same.

The silver lining to the cloud is that a United Ireland is closer. I only hope and pray when it comes about we've moved away from the Varadkar/Murphy Tory style politics on this island and our kids get the United Ireland that brave people a century ago envisioned.

Its not about Brexit, its about racism and the uneducated little englander blaming Johnny Foreigner for all his woes.
Corbyn's policies were so popular he lost the election by a massive margin! A hard left Labour is going nowhere fast. Only a centre left Labour will be returned to power anytime soon. They should write this off as a failed experiment.

Spot on. If Labour doesn't learn from this they'll be in the wilderness until another Blair-like figure emerges.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: marty34 on December 13, 2019, 08:23:25 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on December 13, 2019, 11:31:52 AM
Quote from: Rois on December 13, 2019, 10:41:40 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on December 13, 2019, 10:07:34 AM
Quote from: Sportacus on December 13, 2019, 09:59:45 AM
Hanna and Eastwood will be articulate MPs who will explain the nationalist position in London very well.  All necessary to keep progressing towards a New Ireland.  In contrast, what is the point of MPs like Micky Brady and Francie Molloy.  I literally couldn't tell you what they do from one week to the next.

Who's going to be listening though?

Boris won't give a shit.
The Irish govt now hold *some" of the cards and the DUP are no longer in a position to stop whatever concession is needed on Ireland.  The link btw Varadkar/Coveney and the SDLP could be important.

Claire isn't a big fan of that as we all know.

True, she said she had SDLP, FF and FG canvassing for her this past few weeks - was waiting on the question "which party do you support?" but the question never came.  Glad she's elected but very general in her comments and doesn't want to annoy anybody.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on December 13, 2019, 08:24:43 PM
Read earlier in the week that Corbyn and his closest allies knew they were fucked from the start and they have been busy making plans for Corbyns (like minded) successor
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 13, 2019, 08:27:32 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 13, 2019, 07:20:37 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on December 13, 2019, 02:18:18 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 13, 2019, 02:05:28 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on December 13, 2019, 12:27:04 PM
Personally quite gutted at the results in England and Wales. It's clear this was about Brexit and the people in those areas are steadfastly determined to jump off the cliff. I find it astonishing but I can understand it given the wall to wall coverage it has received.

As usual some unfair and inaccurate comment on Corbyn. I think he has done a tremendous job in making Labour stand for something again. I believe completely in the policies put forward and I know they are the only solution to growing wealth inequality, the jobs timebomb and the climate crisis. Eventually the people will realise this - hopefully before it's too late. I don't think he lost the election on his policy platform - the policies are popular. Brexit meant all bets were off. The Tories, like Trump in 2016, worked out what had to be said to win and the did it relentlessly. A winning strategy perhaps but that's a sad reflection on where we're at I'd say. Corbyn will go but Labour must stay the course with a modern social democratic alternative. Nothing worse than a country with two main parties offering the same.

The silver lining to the cloud is that a United Ireland is closer. I only hope and pray when it comes about we've moved away from the Varadkar/Murphy Tory style politics on this island and our kids get the United Ireland that brave people a century ago envisioned.

Its not about Brexit, its about racism and the uneducated little englander blaming Johnny Foreigner for all his woes.
Corbyn's policies were so popular he lost the election by a massive margin! A hard left Labour is going nowhere fast. Only a centre left Labour will be returned to power anytime soon. They should write this off as a failed experiment.

Spot on. If Labour doesn't learn from this they'll be in the wilderness until another Blair-like figure emerges.

The UK economy is close to collapse. The current account deficit is 5% of GDP. This is a sign of an economy in trouble.
Fianna Fáil won an election in 2007. Within 2 years the people turned against them. Politics are different under economic chaos.
When the UK economy collapses so will the Tories.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: dec on December 13, 2019, 08:34:31 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 13, 2019, 07:20:37 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on December 13, 2019, 02:18:18 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 13, 2019, 02:05:28 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on December 13, 2019, 12:27:04 PM
Personally quite gutted at the results in England and Wales. It's clear this was about Brexit and the people in those areas are steadfastly determined to jump off the cliff. I find it astonishing but I can understand it given the wall to wall coverage it has received.

As usual some unfair and inaccurate comment on Corbyn. I think he has done a tremendous job in making Labour stand for something again. I believe completely in the policies put forward and I know they are the only solution to growing wealth inequality, the jobs timebomb and the climate crisis. Eventually the people will realise this - hopefully before it's too late. I don't think he lost the election on his policy platform - the policies are popular. Brexit meant all bets were off. The Tories, like Trump in 2016, worked out what had to be said to win and the did it relentlessly. A winning strategy perhaps but that's a sad reflection on where we're at I'd say. Corbyn will go but Labour must stay the course with a modern social democratic alternative. Nothing worse than a country with two main parties offering the same.

The silver lining to the cloud is that a United Ireland is closer. I only hope and pray when it comes about we've moved away from the Varadkar/Murphy Tory style politics on this island and our kids get the United Ireland that brave people a century ago envisioned.

Its not about Brexit, its about racism and the uneducated little englander blaming Johnny Foreigner for all his woes.
Corbyn's policies were so popular he lost the election by a massive margin! A hard left Labour is going nowhere fast. Only a centre left Labour will be returned to power anytime soon. They should write this off as a failed experiment.

Spot on. If Labour doesn't learn from this they'll be in the wilderness until another Blair-like figure emerges.

After they lost to Thatcher in 1979 they moved even further to the left by choosing Michael Foot as leader.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 13, 2019, 09:04:17 PM
Quote from: dec on December 13, 2019, 08:34:31 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 13, 2019, 07:20:37 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on December 13, 2019, 02:18:18 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 13, 2019, 02:05:28 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on December 13, 2019, 12:27:04 PM
Personally quite gutted at the results in England and Wales. It's clear this was about Brexit and the people in those areas are steadfastly determined to jump off the cliff. I find it astonishing but I can understand it given the wall to wall coverage it has received.

As usual some unfair and inaccurate comment on Corbyn. I think he has done a tremendous job in making Labour stand for something again. I believe completely in the policies put forward and I know they are the only solution to growing wealth inequality, the jobs timebomb and the climate crisis. Eventually the people will realise this - hopefully before it's too late. I don't think he lost the election on his policy platform - the policies are popular. Brexit meant all bets were off. The Tories, like Trump in 2016, worked out what had to be said to win and the did it relentlessly. A winning strategy perhaps but that's a sad reflection on where we're at I'd say. Corbyn will go but Labour must stay the course with a modern social democratic alternative. Nothing worse than a country with two main parties offering the same.

The silver lining to the cloud is that a United Ireland is closer. I only hope and pray when it comes about we've moved away from the Varadkar/Murphy Tory style politics on this island and our kids get the United Ireland that brave people a century ago envisioned.

Its not about Brexit, its about racism and the uneducated little englander blaming Johnny Foreigner for all his woes.
Corbyn's policies were so popular he lost the election by a massive margin! A hard left Labour is going nowhere fast. Only a centre left Labour will be returned to power anytime soon. They should write this off as a failed experiment.

Spot on. If Labour doesn't learn from this they'll be in the wilderness until another Blair-like figure emerges.

After they lost to Thatcher in 1979 they moved even further to the left by choosing Michael Foot as leader.
That is true but it was at the beginning of Thatcherism. Thatcher won the 1983 election and the economy performed well for a few years. Now is close to the end of Thatcherism. The economy has been performing poorly for a decade. Brexit won't help.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on December 13, 2019, 09:47:30 PM
Labour could become extinct if they aren't careful, there are further seats that were once Labour strongholds that Labour won this time but are now marginals
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 13, 2019, 09:58:03 PM
The Tories have to deliver in Bolsover and Stoke Central. In a lot of cases the Labour vote collapsed.
It could return if the Tories f**k up the next few years.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 13, 2019, 10:00:16 PM
Listening to 5 live tonight most commentators and voters in those strong labour seats that changed hands will be voting back labour next time, purely a brexit and protest voting strategy
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Main Street on December 13, 2019, 10:02:57 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on December 13, 2019, 02:18:18 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 13, 2019, 02:05:28 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on December 13, 2019, 12:27:04 PM
Personally quite gutted at the results in England and Wales. It's clear this was about Brexit and the people in those areas are steadfastly determined to jump off the cliff. I find it astonishing but I can understand it given the wall to wall coverage it has received.

As usual some unfair and inaccurate comment on Corbyn. I think he has done a tremendous job in making Labour stand for something again. I believe completely in the policies put forward and I know they are the only solution to growing wealth inequality, the jobs timebomb and the climate crisis. Eventually the people will realise this - hopefully before it's too late. I don't think he lost the election on his policy platform - the policies are popular. Brexit meant all bets were off. The Tories, like Trump in 2016, worked out what had to be said to win and the did it relentlessly. A winning strategy perhaps but that's a sad reflection on where we're at I'd say. Corbyn will go but Labour must stay the course with a modern social democratic alternative. Nothing worse than a country with two main parties offering the same.

The silver lining to the cloud is that a United Ireland is closer. I only hope and pray when it comes about we've moved away from the Varadkar/Murphy Tory style politics on this island and our kids get the United Ireland that brave people a century ago envisioned.

Its not about Brexit, its about racism and the uneducated little englander blaming Johnny Foreigner for all his woes.
Corbyn's policies were so popular he lost the election by a massive margin! A hard left LabCorbyns policies how can you be so sure about what type ofour is going nowhere fast. Only a centre left Labour will be returned to power anytime soon. They should write this off as a failed experiment.
Johnson's carefully engineered  perception of being a typical sneering anti-muslimite enhanced his profile somewhat among all strata of the English.
Re Labour's economic policy,  was that a major issue of concern which explains why possible Labour voters did not vote Labour this time? I think not. The main issue in this election was brexit, get brexit done and there will be bliss. Pre election, Labour had already walked into a trap sabotaging the process of parliament by opposing everything brexit. The Conservative party would eventually be able to call a general election, could then go to the electorate solely on the brexit isssue, win the election hands down with their fix brexit platform.  Labour had  floundered when opposing everything brexit in parliament and efffectively ignored the main issue of the election after it was called, vainly tried to switch the focus on the sociol & economic platform.
That's mainly where the perception of mistrust in Corbyn came from, his endless dithering over Brexit, not Labours economic platform.

Just my impression.


Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 10:18:08 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on December 13, 2019, 01:12:38 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 13, 2019, 12:34:37 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on December 13, 2019, 12:27:04 PM
Personally quite gutted at the results in England and Wales. It's clear this was about Brexit and the people in those areas are steadfastly determined to jump off the cliff. I find it astonishing but I can understand it given the wall to wall coverage it has received.

As usual some unfair and inaccurate comment on Corbyn. I think he has done a tremendous job in making Labour stand for something again. I believe completely in the policies put forward and I know they are the only solution to growing wealth inequality, the jobs timebomb and the climate crisis. Eventually the people will realise this - hopefully before it's too late. I don't think he lost the election on his policy platform - the policies are popular. Brexit meant all bets were off. The Tories, like Trump in 2016, worked out what had to be said to win and the did it relentlessly. A winning strategy perhaps but that's a sad reflection on where we're at I'd say. Corbyn will go but Labour must stay the course with a modern social democratic alternative. Nothing worse than a country with two main parties offering the same.

The silver lining to the cloud is that a United Ireland is closer. I only hope and pray when it comes about we've moved away from the Varadkar/Murphy Tory style politics on this island and our kids get the United Ireland that brave people a century ago envisioned. 

It's not inaccurate seanie Corbyn was/is a disaster and if the Labour party blame this defeat solely on Brexit they will never recover. Corbyn may well stand for something (Farage and Tommy Robinson stand for plenty too) and that's fine but the public don't want it so either they package up the same policies but get somebody better to sell them to the public or they need to change tack altogether!!

Correct, would be very arrogant to think its solely about Brexit. Interesting times ahead for the Labour party, the powers that be will want Corbyn to hang around whilst they maintain control.

In the seats Labour lost they were down 13%. 2% lost to Tories. 11% lost to Brexit Party. Hard to substantiate any argument that Brexit is not the overwhelmingly dominant issue
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 10:20:03 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on December 13, 2019, 10:51:29 AM
Corbyn's personality might have been an issue. But it's his politics that really hindered Labour.

It's arriving on me that England's deep culture is neither socialist nor liberal, and the only way for Tory opposition to compete is to largely mirror Tory policy, and make it a personality contest.

Gawd help us
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: thewobbler on December 13, 2019, 10:21:58 PM
When you consider that the only Labour politician, since the 1960s, to come to office with a majority of more than 3 is New Labour's Tony Blair, Brexit is basically an easy excuse for those in denial.

England doesn't like to go beyond the centre in its politics. Go left, and you gift elections to the right.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 10:25:07 PM
Quote from: Denn Forever on December 13, 2019, 01:56:43 PM
Iv all the non tories voted as a single bloc. would they have enough to vote down a gov. bill?

Tories have a majority
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 10:30:24 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on December 13, 2019, 02:18:18 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 13, 2019, 02:05:28 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on December 13, 2019, 12:27:04 PM
Personally quite gutted at the results in England and Wales. It's clear this was about Brexit and the people in those areas are steadfastly determined to jump off the cliff. I find it astonishing but I can understand it given the wall to wall coverage it has received.

As usual some unfair and inaccurate comment on Corbyn. I think he has done a tremendous job in making Labour stand for something again. I believe completely in the policies put forward and I know they are the only solution to growing wealth inequality, the jobs timebomb and the climate crisis. Eventually the people will realise this - hopefully before it's too late. I don't think he lost the election on his policy platform - the policies are popular. Brexit meant all bets were off. The Tories, like Trump in 2016, worked out what had to be said to win and the did it relentlessly. A winning strategy perhaps but that's a sad reflection on where we're at I'd say. Corbyn will go but Labour must stay the course with a modern social democratic alternative. Nothing worse than a country with two main parties offering the same.

The silver lining to the cloud is that a United Ireland is closer. I only hope and pray when it comes about we've moved away from the Varadkar/Murphy Tory style politics on this island and our kids get the United Ireland that brave people a century ago envisioned.

Its not about Brexit, its about racism and the uneducated little englander blaming Johnny Foreigner for all his woes.
Corbyn's policies were so popular he lost the election by a massive margin! A hard left Labour is going nowhere fast. Only a centre left Labour will be returned to power anytime soon. They should write this off as a failed experiment.

Election was lost in the north. Lost votes to the Brexit Party. In the south the vote held up.

The only thing that was going to win those northern seats was a hard leave, anti immigration position. A killer in the south
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on December 13, 2019, 10:37:08 PM
Blair 1.0: Deregulate the private sector, tax the resulting economic growth, and use the revenue to fund better public services.
Blair 2.0: Start a war in Iraq because it worked fine with the Kosovo business. What could possibly go wrong?

Blair 1.0 had a winning strategy which is why Labour never lost an election with him as their leader.
Blair 2.0 had developed a God complex, was convinced of his invincibility, blundered into GW Bush's foreign policy clusterf***k, and undermined any trust that the Brits had in politics, which played no small part in fueling Brexit. He may even have fueled Scottish separatism with his devolution work, John Major swore he'd never touch that with a ten-foot pole. In hindsight Major might have been right from a unionist point of view. If there were no Scottish Parliament then Nicola Sturgeon would still be back at Square 1 at this point and clamouring for devolution, instead of standing on Square 2 and calling for the next step which is full independence. Cameron showed that if you go around making short term political moves by making big constitutional gambles, it can come back to bite you in ways you never predicted.

What Labour needs now is a Blair 1.0-type figure, but the memory of Blair 2.0 means that "New Labour" is as damaged a brand as the Michael Foot / Corbynista variety. It's hard to see how Labour can get out of this mess. It took Neil Kinnock and John Smith the best part of a decade to turn the party around to lay the foundations of Blairism.

And you can forget about the Lib Dems restoring their reputation for a while, they probably peaked under Clegg. The first-past-the-post system doesn't lend itself to small parties coming from nowhere to dominate the scene.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on December 13, 2019, 10:52:35 PM
Won't there be a messy divorce if Scotland leave the UK, akin to Brexit?

What would be the deal regarding shipping with imports/exports in and out of Scotland? Where would goods go in and out from? Is there major ports to deal with that like there is in England?

What about goods to and from NI to Stranraer? If Scotland leave, would a bigger/quicker route from Belfast to England be needed to avoid goods being checked twice?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 10:58:54 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 13, 2019, 07:17:45 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on December 13, 2019, 09:59:45 AM
Hanna and Eastwood will be articulate MPs who will explain the nationalist position in London very well.  All necessary to keep progressing towards a New Ireland.  In contrast, what is the point of MPs like Micky Brady and Francie Molloy.  I literally couldn't tell you what they do from one week to the next.

Hanna and Eastwood will make no difference in London - Eastwood said he'll stop Brexit, if elected. Good luck with that a chara! 

Hanna, on the other hand, is likeable but as they were saying on the radio today, she is too nice - full of general soundbites but where does she stand on a re-united Ireland etc.  Won't commit or rock the boat.  Be neutral and bei g everybody's friend won't go on forever.
what difference do SF MLAs make?
What difference do SF MPs make?
What difference do SF TDs make?

Are they fraudsters ?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 11:06:11 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 13, 2019, 07:20:37 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on December 13, 2019, 02:18:18 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 13, 2019, 02:05:28 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on December 13, 2019, 12:27:04 PM
Personally quite gutted at the results in England and Wales. It's clear this was about Brexit and the people in those areas are steadfastly determined to jump off the cliff. I find it astonishing but I can understand it given the wall to wall coverage it has received.

As usual some unfair and inaccurate comment on Corbyn. I think he has done a tremendous job in making Labour stand for something again. I believe completely in the policies put forward and I know they are the only solution to growing wealth inequality, the jobs timebomb and the climate crisis. Eventually the people will realise this - hopefully before it's too late. I don't think he lost the election on his policy platform - the policies are popular. Brexit meant all bets were off. The Tories, like Trump in 2016, worked out what had to be said to win and the did it relentlessly. A winning strategy perhaps but that's a sad reflection on where we're at I'd say. Corbyn will go but Labour must stay the course with a modern social democratic alternative. Nothing worse than a country with two main parties offering the same.

The silver lining to the cloud is that a United Ireland is closer. I only hope and pray when it comes about we've moved away from the Varadkar/Murphy Tory style politics on this island and our kids get the United Ireland that brave people a century ago envisioned.

Its not about Brexit, its about racism and the uneducated little englander blaming Johnny Foreigner for all his woes.
Corbyn's policies were so popular he lost the election by a massive margin! A hard left Labour is going nowhere fast. Only a centre left Labour will be returned to power anytime soon. They should write this off as a failed experiment.

Spot on. If Labour doesn't learn from this they'll be in the wilderness until another Blair-like figure emerges.

Massive decision for Labour. There isn't a simple answer that resonates with the (post) industrial north and the southern youth that did turn out and vote
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on December 14, 2019, 01:20:06 AM
Good work, Fionn.

All this talk about SF's vote being down on before. Most of their losses were in uncompetitive seats where they were either guaranteed to win or guaranteed not to. Jamie Bwyson shouldn't read too much into it. Votes in PR elections are more relevant if you want to start making predictions about future border polls.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: whitey on December 14, 2019, 02:58:22 AM
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/boris-johnson-would-struggle-prime-17415156?fbclid=IwAR37yopPxj_p28zxNHsqCC7ipJ7UgI78zckp4xrbq6L1lxAqcr-WE5BxOao

LOL
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 14, 2019, 07:12:02 AM
What is likely to be the next Unionist seat to fall to Nationalists ?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: naka on December 14, 2019, 07:39:18 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 14, 2019, 01:20:06 AM
Good work, Fionn.

All this talk about SF's vote being down on before. Most of their losses were in uncompetitive seats where they were either guaranteed to win or guaranteed not to. Jamie Bwyson shouldn't read too much into it. Votes in PR elections are more relevant if you want to start making predictions about future border polls.
Tbf Sinn Fein lost a  Fair few votes throughout the six counties.
My view is that they were complacent and the kick isn't a bad thing at this stage .
Alliance are selling a message which resonates with younger people(post gfa) so They are only going to get stronger.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on December 14, 2019, 08:34:31 AM
How many less candidates did they run though? I think with finucane getting in they will be happy enough.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Tony Baloney on December 14, 2019, 09:05:58 AM
Good work Fionn. Comprehensive as always.

I'd love to see a 3 way pact in East Derry to get rid of that absolute cnut Campbell.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on December 14, 2019, 09:24:29 AM
Finucane's great win will leave them smiling for Christmas but
They've dropped their share of the vote in the 6 and got a pasting in the Locals and Euros in the 26.
New leaders, new direction, new ideas badly needed by them as "Border poll now" will only take you so far.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: marty34 on December 14, 2019, 10:07:28 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 10:58:54 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 13, 2019, 07:17:45 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on December 13, 2019, 09:59:45 AM
Hanna and Eastwood will be articulate MPs who will explain the nationalist position in London very well.  All necessary to keep progressing towards a New Ireland.  In contrast, what is the point of MPs like Micky Brady and Francie Molloy.  I literally couldn't tell you what they do from one week to the next.

Hanna and Eastwood will make no difference in London - Eastwood said he'll stop Brexit, if elected. Good luck with that a chara! 

Hanna, on the other hand, is likeable but as they were saying on the radio today, she is too nice - full of general soundbites but where does she stand on a re-united Ireland etc.  Won't commit or rock the boat.  Be neutral and bei g everybody's friend won't go on forever.
what difference do SF MLAs make?
What difference do SF MPs make?
What difference do SF TDs make?

Are they fraudsters ?

Eastwood's pledge was "he'll stop Brexit", if elected.

A day later, he's re-evaluating his statement.

They'll make no difference in London - simple as.  You should read some of my other messages re: SF.

Pearse Doherty the best of the T.D.'s.  Doing great works on the mortgage crisis/banks and only this week, super work on car insurance.

As I stated before, cllrs. do more work for local people than MLAs or MPs - they make a difference locally. 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: marty34 on December 14, 2019, 10:25:49 AM
Quote from: naka on December 14, 2019, 07:39:18 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 14, 2019, 01:20:06 AM
Good work, Fionn.

All this talk about SF's vote being down on before. Most of their losses were in uncompetitive seats where they were either guaranteed to win or guaranteed not to. Jamie Bwyson shouldn't read too much into it. Votes in PR elections are more relevant if you want to start making predictions about future border polls.
Tbf Sinn Fein lost a  Fair few votes throughout the six counties.
My view is that they were complacent and the kick isn't a bad thing at this stage .
Alliance are selling a message which resonates with younger people(post gfa) so They are only going to get stronger.

True - interesting thing nowwill be assembly elections.  It'll be a free for all with parties standing in every area.  It'll be cut throat and it'll be interesting the outworkings of the PR system in who get the final seat in a lot of areas.

As I stated, SF will be publically happy saying they held their own and got their main aim - JF elected.  They must have put everything in to that area, to the detriment of other 'safer' areas.  Privately, they'll be worried I'd say.

Re: east Derry. I heard a lot of unsatisfaction with people and the treatment of the Kevin Lynch band and they'd have lost a lot of votes.  This seems to be true.

They got a lad elected in Dublin west a few weeks ago so they'll be happy but they need to change course asap.  Whether they will or not will be a different story!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 14, 2019, 10:28:46 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on December 13, 2019, 10:21:58 PM
When you consider that the only Labour politician, since the 1960s, to come to office with a majority of more than 3 is New Labour's Tony Blair, Brexit is basically an easy excuse for those in denial.

England doesn't like to go beyond the centre in its politics. Go left, and you gift elections to the right.
The Tories are altRight now. In Government. Tommy Robinson Yaxley Lennon and Katie Hopkins have been providing outriding services on social media. The U.K. is a basket case.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Denn Forever on December 14, 2019, 11:31:49 AM
Katie has now troubles of her own.

https://www.irishmirror.ie/showbiz/celebrity-news/katie-hopkins-forced-sell-1m-20899499
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on December 14, 2019, 11:46:23 AM
The dup did not gain votes in any constituency. Even the ones with the pacts. That is somewhat reassuring.

Sf down more than I thought.

Interesting to see the alliance swing in east Belfast despite not winning and in north down and even north Belfast.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 14, 2019, 12:31:45 PM
A very bad result for the DUP, losing 2 and missing out on North Down. Dodds is a big loss. The big picture is that the DUP's big Brexit adventure failed. Now England is nuts. And Arlene isn't really strategic.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on December 14, 2019, 12:49:04 PM
Had a hunch SF and DUP would suffer this time. Not enough to really matter though, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Solo_run on December 14, 2019, 01:18:44 PM
Normal service will be resumed in next election.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on December 14, 2019, 01:36:18 PM
Quote from: Solo_run on December 14, 2019, 01:18:44 PM
Normal service will be resumed in next election.

Not really sure it will. There appears to be a certain degree of volatility abroad amongst the electorate at the minute. Whether that's here to stay or not is another matter. I think it's clear that people voted in ways that maybe they haven't before, but perhaps it was more to get rid of certain people, rather than actively being for the politician you were voting for. Maybe that's the shape of things to come....know what you're against & then see what's your best option, in terms of turfing them out.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: In hiding on December 14, 2019, 02:01:31 PM
Quote from: Solo_run on December 14, 2019, 01:18:44 PM
Normal service will be resumed in next election.

No it won't.
People who were afraid to vote Alliance before in case it was a waste of their vote now see that this will not be the case, especially in a PR scenario. Sinn Fein and DUP will have to start getting results to maintain their vote (I hope)
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 14, 2019, 02:36:43 PM
SF only had 22% vote share according to RTE.
In a PR system I saw that they would only win 3 seats.
FPTP is a joke at this stage. The DUP got 8 seats with 30% of the vote.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on December 14, 2019, 04:03:51 PM
Voting boundaries help them. The map is interesting viewing. It's purely coastal and nowhere near border counties they have seats in.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: whitey on December 14, 2019, 05:17:20 PM
All my family in England are hardcore Labour supporters-just pulled this comment of my cousins page

"Let us all revolt against this evil regime start marching against there political issues let's kick the f**k out of every tory cvnt sc**bag bastards"

LOL
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Mikhailov on December 14, 2019, 05:46:07 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 14, 2019, 04:03:51 PM
Voting boundaries help them. The map is interesting viewing. It's purely coastal and nowhere near border counties they have seats in.

Sure coastal is the new border. The DUP now hold all the areas close to the new sea border - complete bunch of fools. No leader(s) whatsoever in that party at all. Arlene our, Jeffrey too weak so where do they go from here
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 14, 2019, 07:07:30 PM
Corbyn was given as the reason why Labour lost seats in traditional Labour areas but it doesn't make sense unless there is something behind it like a culture war.

@steveTbone
·
I'm northern, working class, I've seen the disaffection up here Michael. It's a feeling of abandonment mixed with rage. We know something is wrong, but we are not encouraged to delve into politics. That's for the political class. That's what political class tell us.

@Luke Pagarani
... so it has taken four years for low engagement voters to absorb it fully. The real charge against Corbyn is that he fundamentally believes that British/white lives are of equal value with the lives of others.

@LukePagarani

Our opponents wouldn't put it so bluntly but that is what it has always been about. That prioritisation of British lives must always be assumed, never justified, taken for granted as the ground the state is built on, never officially avowed except through ritual.



@LukePagarani
·
The cenotaph. Gerry Adams. Prosecutions of historic crimes in N.I. Laying wreaths in foreign cemeteries. Poppies. Diane Abbott. Pushing the button. Watching the Queen at Christmas.



@LukePagarani

It is impossible to defend Corbyn against this unspoken charge because it is clearly true.

@LukePagarani

What is particularly strange about all this is how it has moved away from primarily a concern about immigration itself, to a broader set of questions of patriotism, fiscal constraint, Brexit for its own sake rather than to end free movement, and deference to authority. 14/

Liberty
@libertyhq

𝗪𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝘄𝗲'𝗿𝗲 𝗳𝗮𝗰𝗶𝗻𝗴:

Edits to the Human Rights Act.
More surveillance.
More discriminatory policing.
Racist hostile environment.
Government that wants to put itself above the law.

George Eaton
@georgeeaton

What a Conservative majority means:

- Brexit.
- End of free movement.
- Potential abolition of Human Rights Act.
- Voter ID law.
- Judiciary curbed.
- Boundary reforms.


@GabrielleKent
My brother is a personal trainer in Newcastle. This morning he was training a British Asian client from Darras Hall area. Her neighbour knocked on her door this morning and said, "Just to let you know, the Conservatives won. So we won't have to put up with you lot much longer."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/13/cataclysmic-election-confirms-realignment-british-politics-almost/
"The realignment of politics in England and Wales, which began with the rise of Ukip after 2010, is now almost complete.
We are now in a new political settlement in which the main division over politics is not so much economics as national identity and cultural politics, although economic issues still play a part."

This is English Nationalism. It's a distraction from income inequality and is really scary for Unionists. 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on December 14, 2019, 08:29:43 PM
Quote from: whitey on December 14, 2019, 05:17:20 PM
All my family in England are hardcore Labour supporters-just pulled this comment of my cousins page

"Let us all revolt against this evil regime start marching against there political issues let's kick the f**k out of every tory cvnt sc**bag b**tards"

LOL

No you didn't.

LOL
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on December 15, 2019, 04:31:17 AM
Quote from: marty34 on December 14, 2019, 10:07:28 AM
Eastwood's pledge was "he'll stop Brexit", if elected.

That was on the assumption of a hung parliament.

Quote
Pearse Doherty the best of the T.D.'s.  Doing great works on the mortgage crisis/banks and only this week, super work on car insurance.

Agreed. An underrated character. The likes of him and Máirtín Ó Muilleoir are excellent leadership material.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on December 15, 2019, 04:37:10 AM
Okay, is it just me or is nobody talking about the fact that the Tories did not win the popular vote? They got 43.6% of the vote. In a PR voting system the pro-Remain vote would have been even stronger and this would have been a hung parliament.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: screenexile on December 15, 2019, 06:13:04 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 15, 2019, 04:37:10 AM
Okay, is it just me or is nobody talking about the fact that the Tories did not win the popular vote? They got 43.6% of the vote. In a PR voting system the pro-Remain vote would have been even stronger and this would have been a hung parliament.

If your Granny had balls she'd be your grandad!

Labour lost and instead of changing the rules they need to figure out how they haven't won an election agains the worst incumbent Govt in history.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on December 15, 2019, 10:11:46 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 15, 2019, 06:13:04 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 15, 2019, 04:37:10 AM
Okay, is it just me or is nobody talking about the fact that the Tories did not win the popular vote? They got 43.6% of the vote. In a PR voting system the pro-Remain vote would have been even stronger and this would have been a hung parliament.

If your Granny had balls she'd be your grandad!

Labour lost and instead of changing the rules they need to figure out how they haven't won an election agains the worst incumbent Govt in history.

Exactly. I like Corbyn but if you can not oust what is probably the most unscrupulous of prime ministers in the history of prime ministers, and that is saying something, then you have no chance. Yes media smear etc etc but a leader needs conviction in his beliefs and he did not display this in his campaign.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: manfromdelmonte on December 15, 2019, 10:18:34 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 15, 2019, 10:11:46 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 15, 2019, 06:13:04 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 15, 2019, 04:37:10 AM
Okay, is it just me or is nobody talking about the fact that the Tories did not win the popular vote? They got 43.6% of the vote. In a PR voting system the pro-Remain vote would have been even stronger and this would have been a hung parliament.

If your Granny had balls she'd be your grandad!

Labour lost and instead of changing the rules they need to figure out how they haven't won an election agains the worst incumbent Govt in history.

Exactly. I like Corbyn but if you can not oust what is probably the most unscrupulous of prime ministers in the history of prime ministers, and that is saying something, then you have no chance. Yes media smear etc etc but a leader needs conviction in his beliefs and he did not display this in his campaign.
Labour went all left wing

They needed to move to a centrist position with a very simple message.
People don't read manifestos
They will only remember slogans and dirt on the opponents

Labour should have been attacking the clearly racist Tories and what they have done with their 9 years in power
How many billions already wasted on brexit?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 15, 2019, 10:25:23 AM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on December 15, 2019, 10:18:34 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 15, 2019, 10:11:46 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 15, 2019, 06:13:04 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 15, 2019, 04:37:10 AM
Okay, is it just me or is nobody talking about the fact that the Tories did not win the popular vote? They got 43.6% of the vote. In a PR voting system the pro-Remain vote would have been even stronger and this would have been a hung parliament.

If your Granny had balls she'd be your grandad!

Labour lost and instead of changing the rules they need to figure out how they haven't won an election agains the worst incumbent Govt in history.

Exactly. I like Corbyn but if you can not oust what is probably the most unscrupulous of prime ministers in the history of prime ministers, and that is saying something, then you have no chance. Yes media smear etc etc but a leader needs conviction in his beliefs and he did not display this in his campaign.
Labour went all left wing

They needed to move to a centrist position with a very simple message.
People don't read manifestos
They will only remember slogans and dirt on the opponents

Labour should have been attacking the clearly racist Tories and what they have done with their 9 years in power
How many billions already wasted on brexit?

They didn't understand what was going on in the working class seats they lost in the North of England. The election was basically a transfer of 60 Labour seats to the Tories and some Tory losses.

Racism won seats for the Tories in working class areas. It's a culture war.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 15, 2019, 10:52:26 AM
England is basically middle class in much of the South and certain areas elsewhere and poor in the deindustrialised areas of the Midlands and the North. Enough of the people who live in these areas are desperate enough to follow the Tories and deliver them a majority. They won them the Leave vote and they won them this election The UK needs a  Marshall Plan to fix this problem.

http://shura.shu.ac.uk/14603/1/cresr30th-jobs-welfare-austerity_Final%20published%20Report.pdf
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on December 15, 2019, 11:00:34 AM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on December 15, 2019, 10:18:34 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 15, 2019, 10:11:46 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 15, 2019, 06:13:04 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 15, 2019, 04:37:10 AM
Okay, is it just me or is nobody talking about the fact that the Tories did not win the popular vote? They got 43.6% of the vote. In a PR voting system the pro-Remain vote would have been even stronger and this would have been a hung parliament.

If your Granny had balls she'd be your grandad!

Labour lost and instead of changing the rules they need to figure out how they haven't won an election agains the worst incumbent Govt in history.

Exactly. I like Corbyn but if you can not oust what is probably the most unscrupulous of prime ministers in the history of prime ministers, and that is saying something, then you have no chance. Yes media smear etc etc but a leader needs conviction in his beliefs and he did not display this in his campaign.
Labour went all left wing

They needed to move to a centrist position with a very simple message.
People don't read manifestos
They will only remember slogans and dirt on the opponents

Labour should have been attacking the clearly racist Tories and what they have done with their 9 years in power
How many billions already wasted on brexit?

Exactly. It was a really weak campaign.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: LCohen on December 15, 2019, 11:10:56 AM
Where to next for the UUP voter. FST is a case apart as the reported UUP vote includes DUP supporters. But in a number of constituencies (East Belfast, south Antrim and Lagan Valley) they can roll in behind Alliance and dislodge DUP. In a few more a similar give from say SDLP (East Antrim) or SDLP + Green (Strangford) will dislodge DUP. The move in moderate unionism is well underway. Moderate nationalism could well do the same. Tactical voting by natural SF supporters would accelerate all of this
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: whitey on December 15, 2019, 11:37:43 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 15, 2019, 04:37:10 AM
Okay, is it just me or is nobody talking about the fact that the Tories did not win the popular vote? They got 43.6% of the vote. In a PR voting system the pro-Remain vote would have been even stronger and this would have been a hung parliament.

Time to move the goalposts
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: marty34 on December 15, 2019, 11:42:57 AM
Quote from: LCohen on December 15, 2019, 11:10:56 AM
Where to next for the UUP voter. FST is a case apart as the reported UUP vote includes DUP supporters. But in a number of constituencies (East Belfast, south Antrim and Lagan Valley) they can roll in behind Alliance and dislodge DUP. In a few more a similar give from say SDLP (East Antrim) or SDLP + Green (Strangford) will dislodge DUP. The move in moderate unionism is well underway. Moderate nationalism could well do the same. Tactical voting by natural SF supporters would accelerate all of this

All well and good LC, but what difference will it make if there are 5 SDLP, 5 Al and 5 SF mps to 3 unionist mps for example.  It'll make no difference in London with 650 odd mps.

Only time will be a hung parliament but parties lose run of themselves when this happens e.g. DUP.

Wales have 40 mps with 3m population but north has 18 mps with 1.8 m of population.  How are they worked out?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Main Street on December 15, 2019, 11:50:51 AM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on December 15, 2019, 10:18:34 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 15, 2019, 10:11:46 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 15, 2019, 06:13:04 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 15, 2019, 04:37:10 AM
Okay, is it just me or is nobody talking about the fact that the Tories did not win the popular vote? They got 43.6% of the vote. In a PR voting system the pro-Remain vote would have been even stronger and this would have been a hung parliament.

If your Granny had balls she'd be your grandad!

Labour lost and instead of changing the rules they need to figure out how they haven't won an election agains the worst incumbent Govt in history.

Exactly. I like Corbyn but if you can not oust what is probably the most unscrupulous of prime ministers in the history of prime ministers, and that is saying something, then you have no chance. Yes media smear etc etc but a leader needs conviction in his beliefs and he did not display this in his campaign.
Labour went all left wing

They needed to move to a centrist position with a very simple message.
People don't read manifestos
They will only remember slogans and dirt on the opponents

Labour should have been attacking the clearly racist Tories and what they have done with their 9 years in power
How many billions already wasted on brexit?
Left wing?? Have you read the Labour manifesto?  It's about as radical as the conservative social democrat manifesto in Scandanavia. England and Ireland for that matter, are both so socially and economically backward  that a basic political policy on social and economic issues is regarded with horror

Min wage - at least GBP10/ph 
Share in company profit, max GBP 500 p/a dividend.The French have a more progresssive dividend system in law since 2011.

Free childcare -  no means test, is more expansive than other countries

Increase worker security
Ban zero hour contract along with a long list of other worker related, basic bog standards civil rights.
Dump the punitive universal credit
Left wing my hole,  thats basic  common sense.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Mikhail Prokhorov on December 15, 2019, 12:08:56 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 15, 2019, 11:42:57 AM
Quote from: LCohen on December 15, 2019, 11:10:56 AM
Where to next for the UUP voter. FST is a case apart as the reported UUP vote includes DUP supporters. But in a number of constituencies (East Belfast, south Antrim and Lagan Valley) they can roll in behind Alliance and dislodge DUP. In a few more a similar give from say SDLP (East Antrim) or SDLP + Green (Strangford) will dislodge DUP. The move in moderate unionism is well underway. Moderate nationalism could well do the same. Tactical voting by natural SF supporters would accelerate all of this

All well and good LC, but what difference will it make if there are 5 SDLP, 5 Al and 5 SF mps to 3 unionist mps for example.  It'll make no difference in London with 650 odd mps.

Only time will be a hung parliament but parties lose run of themselves when this happens e.g. DUP.

Wales have 40 mps with 3m population but north has 18 mps with 1.8 m of population.  How are they worked out?

if that happens, they won't be going to london  ;)
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: manfromdelmonte on December 15, 2019, 12:21:39 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 15, 2019, 10:25:23 AM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on December 15, 2019, 10:18:34 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 15, 2019, 10:11:46 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 15, 2019, 06:13:04 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 15, 2019, 04:37:10 AM
Okay, is it just me or is nobody talking about the fact that the Tories did not win the popular vote? They got 43.6% of the vote. In a PR voting system the pro-Remain vote would have been even stronger and this would have been a hung parliament.

If your Granny had balls she'd be your grandad!

Labour lost and instead of changing the rules they need to figure out how they haven't won an election agains the worst incumbent Govt in history.

Exactly. I like Corbyn but if you can not oust what is probably the most unscrupulous of prime ministers in the history of prime ministers, and that is saying something, then you have no chance. Yes media smear etc etc but a leader needs conviction in his beliefs and he did not display this in his campaign.
Labour went all left wing

They needed to move to a centrist position with a very simple message.
People don't read manifestos
They will only remember slogans and dirt on the opponents

Labour should have been attacking the clearly racist Tories and what they have done with their 9 years in power
How many billions already wasted on brexit?

They didn't understand what was going on in the working class seats they lost in the North of England. The election was basically a transfer of 60 Labour seats to the Tories and some Tory losses.

Racism won seats for the Tories in working class areas. It's a culture war.
Yep.

been amazed at the average voter blaming labour held councils for the poor state of local services

Give the Tories a chance some of them even said
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on December 15, 2019, 12:30:59 PM
Heard 1 English bolx on the News saying he didn't vote Labour because Corbyn wouldn't sing the National Anthem or bow to the Queen.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on December 15, 2019, 12:50:06 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 15, 2019, 10:25:23 AM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on December 15, 2019, 10:18:34 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 15, 2019, 10:11:46 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 15, 2019, 06:13:04 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 15, 2019, 04:37:10 AM
Okay, is it just me or is nobody talking about the fact that the Tories did not win the popular vote? They got 43.6% of the vote. In a PR voting system the pro-Remain vote would have been even stronger and this would have been a hung parliament.

If your Granny had balls she'd be your grandad!

Labour lost and instead of changing the rules they need to figure out how they haven't won an election agains the worst incumbent Govt in history.

Exactly. I like Corbyn but if you can not oust what is probably the most unscrupulous of prime ministers in the history of prime ministers, and that is saying something, then you have no chance. Yes media smear etc etc but a leader needs conviction in his beliefs and he did not display this in his campaign.
Labour went all left wing

They needed to move to a centrist position with a very simple message.
People don't read manifestos
They will only remember slogans and dirt on the opponents

Labour should have been attacking the clearly racist Tories and what they have done with their 9 years in power
How many billions already wasted on brexit?

They didn't understand what was going on in the working class seats they lost in the North of England. The election was basically a transfer of 60 Labour seats to the Tories and some Tory losses.

Racism won seats for the Tories in working class areas. It's a culture war.

Not really true and if you have been paying attention about polling and evidence from Labour canvassers and journalists who were on the ground you probably know that but it's the type of attitude of ignoring the reasons for being obliterated will lead to Labour remaining out of power for the foreseeable

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Armagh18 on December 15, 2019, 12:59:26 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 15, 2019, 04:31:17 AM
Quote from: marty34 on December 14, 2019, 10:07:28 AM
Eastwood's pledge was "he'll stop Brexit", if elected.

That was on the assumption of a hung parliament.

Quote
Pearse Doherty the best of the T.D.'s.  Doing great works on the mortgage crisis/banks and only this week, super work on car insurance.

Agreed. An underrated character. The likes of him and Máirtín Ó Muilleoir are excellent leadership material.
Mary Lou and Michelle out, Pearse and John in if we want to get anywhere.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: balladmaker on December 15, 2019, 01:03:44 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on December 15, 2019, 12:59:26 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 15, 2019, 04:31:17 AM
Quote from: marty34 on December 14, 2019, 10:07:28 AM
Eastwood's pledge was "he'll stop Brexit", if elected.

That was on the assumption of a hung parliament.

Quote
Pearse Doherty the best of the T.D.'s.  Doing great works on the mortgage crisis/banks and only this week, super work on car insurance.

Agreed. An underrated character. The likes of him and Máirtín Ó Muilleoir are excellent leadership material.
Mary Lou and Michelle out, Pearse and John in if we want to get anywhere.

Michelle should be moved off centre stage, communication is everything and unfortunately she struggles in that regard imo.  When watching JF's victory speech it came to mind there is a future leader of Republicanism .... smart, articulate and very likeable.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 15, 2019, 01:30:39 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on December 15, 2019, 12:21:39 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 15, 2019, 10:25:23 AM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on December 15, 2019, 10:18:34 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 15, 2019, 10:11:46 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 15, 2019, 06:13:04 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 15, 2019, 04:37:10 AM
Okay, is it just me or is nobody talking about the fact that the Tories did not win the popular vote? They got 43.6% of the vote. In a PR voting system the pro-Remain vote would have been even stronger and this would have been a hung parliament.

If your Granny had balls she'd be your grandad!

Labour lost and instead of changing the rules they need to figure out how they haven't won an election agains the worst incumbent Govt in history.

Exactly. I like Corbyn but if you can not oust what is probably the most unscrupulous of prime ministers in the history of prime ministers, and that is saying something, then you have no chance. Yes media smear etc etc but a leader needs conviction in his beliefs and he did not display this in his campaign.
Labour went all left wing

They needed to move to a centrist position with a very simple message.
People don't read manifestos
They will only remember slogans and dirt on the opponents

Labour should have been attacking the clearly racist Tories and what they have done with their 9 years in power
How many billions already wasted on brexit?

They didn't understand what was going on in the working class seats they lost in the North of England. The election was basically a transfer of 60 Labour seats to the Tories and some Tory losses.

Racism won seats for the Tories in working class areas. It's a culture war.
Yep.

been amazed at the average voter blaming labour held councils for the poor state of local services

Give the Tories a chance some of them even said
We don't seem to know much about the ads the Tories used in those Labour seats.

Overall it  reminds me of the 2007 election in the South. Fianna Fail and the Greens went into coalition and were delighted. The country had a current account deficit of 5% of GDP and a property bubble. It was living beyond its means. Foreigners were funding the spending. FF didn't have a notion. Then there was a crash. FF haven't been in government since.

The UK has a current account deficit and a property bubble.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Armagh18 on December 15, 2019, 01:37:22 PM
Quote from: balladmaker on December 15, 2019, 01:03:44 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on December 15, 2019, 12:59:26 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 15, 2019, 04:31:17 AM
Quote from: marty34 on December 14, 2019, 10:07:28 AM
Eastwood's pledge was "he'll stop Brexit", if elected.

That was on the assumption of a hung parliament.

Quote
Pearse Doherty the best of the T.D.'s.  Doing great works on the mortgage crisis/banks and only this week, super work on car insurance.

Agreed. An underrated character. The likes of him and Máirtín Ó Muilleoir are excellent leadership material.
Mary Lou and Michelle out, Pearse and John in if we want to get anywhere.

Michelle should be moved off centre stage, communication is everything and unfortunately she struggles in that regard imo.  When watching JF's victory speech it came to mind there is a future leader of Republicanism .... smart, articulate and very likeable.
Yeah think he's going to go to the top. Excellent politician.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 15, 2019, 01:48:55 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 14, 2019, 10:07:28 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 10:58:54 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 13, 2019, 07:17:45 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on December 13, 2019, 09:59:45 AM
Hanna and Eastwood will be articulate MPs who will explain the nationalist position in London very well.  All necessary to keep progressing towards a New Ireland.  In contrast, what is the point of MPs like Micky Brady and Francie Molloy.  I literally couldn't tell you what they do from one week to the next.

Hanna and Eastwood will make no difference in London - Eastwood said he'll stop Brexit, if elected. Good luck with that a chara! 

Hanna, on the other hand, is likeable but as they were saying on the radio today, she is too nice - full of general soundbites but where does she stand on a re-united Ireland etc.  Won't commit or rock the boat.  Be neutral and bei g everybody's friend won't go on forever.
what difference do SF MLAs make?
What difference do SF MPs make?
What difference do SF TDs make?

Are they fraudsters ?

Eastwood's pledge was "he'll stop Brexit", if elected.

A day later, he's re-evaluating his statement.

They'll make no difference in London - simple as.  You should read some of my other messages re: SF.

Pearse Doherty the best of the T.D.'s.  Doing great works on the mortgage crisis/banks and only this week, super work on car insurance.

As I stated before, cllrs. do more work for local people than MLAs or MPs - they make a difference locally.

Are you seriously suggesting that the people of Foyle believed that Eastwood was claiming he would stop Brexit even if Johnson had an majority of 80? They didn't believe that. You don't believe that. Your line of reasoning is daft beyond measure.

I'll have to plead ignorance on Doherty. I don't doubt he has talent but I'm unaware what he has delivered? Happy to illuminated
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on December 15, 2019, 01:50:10 PM
Quote from: Kidder81 on December 15, 2019, 12:50:06 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 15, 2019, 10:25:23 AM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on December 15, 2019, 10:18:34 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 15, 2019, 10:11:46 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 15, 2019, 06:13:04 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 15, 2019, 04:37:10 AM
Okay, is it just me or is nobody talking about the fact that the Tories did not win the popular vote? They got 43.6% of the vote. In a PR voting system the pro-Remain vote would have been even stronger and this would have been a hung parliament.

If your Granny had balls she'd be your grandad!

Labour lost and instead of changing the rules they need to figure out how they haven't won an election agains the worst incumbent Govt in history.

Exactly. I like Corbyn but if you can not oust what is probably the most unscrupulous of prime ministers in the history of prime ministers, and that is saying something, then you have no chance. Yes media smear etc etc but a leader needs conviction in his beliefs and he did not display this in his campaign.
Labour went all left wing

They needed to move to a centrist position with a very simple message.
People don't read manifestos
They will only remember slogans and dirt on the opponents

Labour should have been attacking the clearly racist Tories and what they have done with their 9 years in power
How many billions already wasted on brexit?

They didn't understand what was going on in the working class seats they lost in the North of England. The election was basically a transfer of 60 Labour seats to the Tories and some Tory losses.

Racism won seats for the Tories in working class areas. It's a culture war.

Not really true and if you have been paying attention about polling and evidence from Labour canvassers and journalists who were on the ground you probably know that but it's the type of attitude of ignoring the reasons for being obliterated will lead to Labour remaining out of power for the foreseeable

Exactly. It's like parties here. Accountability needs to be taken for losing votes. It's the easiest thing in the world for the dup to say it was due to a pan nationalist front and for labour to say it was brexit or little englander mentality. That may have played a part but there are many reasons for the obliteration of these parties - a lot of which fall at their own doorstep.(sf and brexit too)

The dup will crank up the divisive rhetoric I expect but have their head in the sand. Labour firmly have their head buried in the sand .
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 15, 2019, 01:53:17 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 15, 2019, 10:11:46 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 15, 2019, 06:13:04 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 15, 2019, 04:37:10 AM
Okay, is it just me or is nobody talking about the fact that the Tories did not win the popular vote? They got 43.6% of the vote. In a PR voting system the pro-Remain vote would have been even stronger and this would have been a hung parliament.

If your Granny had balls she'd be your grandad!

Labour lost and instead of changing the rules they need to figure out how they haven't won an election agains the worst incumbent Govt in history.

Exactly. I like Corbyn but if you can not oust what is probably the most unscrupulous of prime ministers in the history of prime ministers, and that is saying something, then you have no chance. Yes media smear etc etc but a leader needs conviction in his beliefs and he did not display this in his campaign.

What Brexit position should he have taken in this election?

Labour has 2 constituencies. They have polarised views on the leading issue. Any view of Corbyn, the manifesto, the campaign or next steps needs to address the key issue
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 15, 2019, 01:54:19 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on December 15, 2019, 10:18:34 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 15, 2019, 10:11:46 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 15, 2019, 06:13:04 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 15, 2019, 04:37:10 AM
Okay, is it just me or is nobody talking about the fact that the Tories did not win the popular vote? They got 43.6% of the vote. In a PR voting system the pro-Remain vote would have been even stronger and this would have been a hung parliament.

If your Granny had balls she'd be your grandad!

Labour lost and instead of changing the rules they need to figure out how they haven't won an election agains the worst incumbent Govt in history.

Exactly. I like Corbyn but if you can not oust what is probably the most unscrupulous of prime ministers in the history of prime ministers, and that is saying something, then you have no chance. Yes media smear etc etc but a leader needs conviction in his beliefs and he did not display this in his campaign.
Labour went all left wing

They needed to move to a centrist position with a very simple message.
People don't read manifestos
They will only remember slogans and dirt on the opponents

Labour should have been attacking the clearly racist Tories and what they have done with their 9 years in power
How many billions already wasted on brexit?

Left wing my arse.

Is Angela Merkel hard left?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 15, 2019, 02:01:44 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 15, 2019, 11:42:57 AM
Quote from: LCohen on December 15, 2019, 11:10:56 AM
Where to next for the UUP voter. FST is a case apart as the reported UUP vote includes DUP supporters. But in a number of constituencies (East Belfast, south Antrim and Lagan Valley) they can roll in behind Alliance and dislodge DUP. In a few more a similar give from say SDLP (East Antrim) or SDLP + Green (Strangford) will dislodge DUP. The move in moderate unionism is well underway. Moderate nationalism could well do the same. Tactical voting by natural SF supporters would accelerate all of this

All well and good LC, but what difference will it make if there are 5 SDLP, 5 Al and 5 SF mps to 3 unionist mps for example.  It'll make no difference in London with 650 odd mps.

Only time will be a hung parliament but parties lose run of themselves when this happens e.g. DUP.

Wales have 40 mps with 3m population but north has 18 mps with 1.8 m of population.  How are they worked out?

I heard the same view in Roscommon during the last Dail election. What was the point of sending Roscommon lads up to that there Dublin? Sure they were never going to be a majority. I guess it's just one of the unfairnesses in representative democracy
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 15, 2019, 02:02:26 PM
Quote from: Mikhail Prokhorov on December 15, 2019, 12:08:56 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 15, 2019, 11:42:57 AM
Quote from: LCohen on December 15, 2019, 11:10:56 AM
Where to next for the UUP voter. FST is a case apart as the reported UUP vote includes DUP supporters. But in a number of constituencies (East Belfast, south Antrim and Lagan Valley) they can roll in behind Alliance and dislodge DUP. In a few more a similar give from say SDLP (East Antrim) or SDLP + Green (Strangford) will dislodge DUP. The move in moderate unionism is well underway. Moderate nationalism could well do the same. Tactical voting by natural SF supporters would accelerate all of this

All well and good LC, but what difference will it make if there are 5 SDLP, 5 Al and 5 SF mps to 3 unionist mps for example.  It'll make no difference in London with 650 odd mps.

Only time will be a hung parliament but parties lose run of themselves when this happens e.g. DUP.

Wales have 40 mps with 3m population but north has 18 mps with 1.8 m of population.  How are they worked out?

if that happens, they won't be going to london  ;)

Don't bet on it.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 15, 2019, 02:56:13 PM
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/establishment-journalists-have-betrayed-ideals-fourth-estate/

One of the tragedies of this election result is that many senior journalists who always despised Corbyn and the policies he stood for will now attempt to use it as a tool to berate him with, beat back criticism with and vindicate themselves. Together with those centrist and right-wing politicians and commentators, they will say that Corbyn and his supporters are to blame, that they should 'own their defeat', and that they should, furthermore, stop blaming the media and journalists. While it's certainly true that the Labour Party and its activists have some long, hard self-reflecting to do (particularly over the cultural issue of Brexit), that the British media and its senior journalists have nothing to do with the outcome of this election is bollocks.

In many ways, journalists have now become their own worst enemies: their refusal to accept their failures will almost certainly continue to erode what little is left of their already tarnished reputations and public trust levels. Moreover, for all the good they do serve, there is no avoiding the perception amongst much of the public that the media and politicians are 'all the same', because, to a large extent, this is correct.

Will Davies has recently commented recently on the 'Berlusconification' of British politics, where the once separate domains of politics and media have become indistinguishable: Johnson and Michael Gove are both former journalists, George Osborne now heads the Evening Standard, and so on. The failure of journalists to keep these domains separate goes a long way to explaining the current crisis of legitimacy befalling the media, and the result of this election. Journalists and politicians who ignore this are placing us all in deeper jeopardy as the principle of an independent 'Fourth Estate' falls further from sight. Given the scarcity of truth during this general election, one thing can be known for certain: the British media is in desperate need of radical democratic reforms.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: whitey on December 15, 2019, 02:58:21 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 15, 2019, 01:54:19 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on December 15, 2019, 10:18:34 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 15, 2019, 10:11:46 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 15, 2019, 06:13:04 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 15, 2019, 04:37:10 AM
Okay, is it just me or is nobody talking about the fact that the Tories did not win the popular vote? They got 43.6% of the vote. In a PR voting system the pro-Remain vote would have been even stronger and this would have been a hung parliament.

If your Granny had balls she'd be your grandad!

Labour lost and instead of changing the rules they need to figure out how they haven't won an election agains the worst incumbent Govt in history.

Exactly. I like Corbyn but if you can not oust what is probably the most unscrupulous of prime ministers in the history of prime ministers, and that is saying something, then you have no chance. Yes media smear etc etc but a leader needs conviction in his beliefs and he did not display this in his campaign.
Labour went all left wing

They needed to move to a centrist position with a very simple message.
People don't read manifestos
They will only remember slogans and dirt on the opponents

Labour should have been attacking the clearly racist Tories and what they have done with their 9 years in power
How many billions already wasted on brexit?

Left wing my arse.

Is Angela Merkel hard left?

Bang on.....thats just a right wing talking point......they need to go even further to the left to win their base back

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: whitey on December 15, 2019, 03:01:25 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 15, 2019, 02:56:13 PM
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/establishment-journalists-have-betrayed-ideals-fourth-estate/

One of the tragedies of this election result is that many senior journalists who always despised Corbyn and the policies he stood for will now attempt to use it as a tool to berate him with, beat back criticism with and vindicate themselves. Together with those centrist and right-wing politicians and commentators, they will say that Corbyn and his supporters are to blame, that they should 'own their defeat', and that they should, furthermore, stop blaming the media and journalists. While it's certainly true that the Labour Party and its activists have some long, hard self-reflecting to do (particularly over the cultural issue of Brexit), that the British media and its senior journalists have nothing to do with the outcome of this election is bollocks.

In many ways, journalists have now become their own worst enemies: their refusal to accept their failures will almost certainly continue to erode what little is left of their already tarnished reputations and public trust levels. Moreover, for all the good they do serve, there is no avoiding the perception amongst much of the public that the media and politicians are 'all the same', because, to a large extent, this is correct.

Will Davies has recently commented recently on the 'Berlusconification' of British politics, where the once separate domains of politics and media have become indistinguishable: Johnson and Michael Gove are both former journalists, George Osborne now heads the Evening Standard, and so on. The failure of journalists to keep these domains separate goes a long way to explaining the current crisis of legitimacy befalling the media, and the result of this election. Journalists and politicians who ignore this are placing us all in deeper jeopardy as the principle of an independent 'Fourth Estate' falls further from sight. Given the scarcity of truth during this general election, one thing can be known for certain: the British media is in desperate need of radical democratic reforms.

Completely agree. If the media had treated Corbyn fairly, it would be Labour with the overwhelming majority . Their supporters got duped by the media into voting Tory
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: thewobbler on December 15, 2019, 03:22:13 PM
"Duped".

You should sit down and ponder what you're saying here, which is basically that anyone who doesn't vote like you is incapable of rational thought.

Which, frankly, makes you a bell-end.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: marty34 on December 15, 2019, 03:28:38 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 15, 2019, 01:48:55 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 14, 2019, 10:07:28 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 10:58:54 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 13, 2019, 07:17:45 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on December 13, 2019, 09:59:45 AM
Hanna and Eastwood will be articulate MPs who will explain the nationalist position in London very well.  All necessary to keep progressing towards a New Ireland.  In contrast, what is the point of MPs like Micky Brady and Francie Molloy.  I literally couldn't tell you what they do from one week to the next.

Hanna and Eastwood will make no difference in London - Eastwood said he'll stop Brexit, if elected. Good luck with that a chara! 

Hanna, on the other hand, is likeable but as they were saying on the radio today, she is too nice - full of general soundbites but where does she stand on a re-united Ireland etc.  Won't commit or rock the boat.  Be neutral and bei g everybody's friend won't go on forever.
what difference do SF MLAs make?
What difference do SF MPs make?
What difference do SF TDs make?

Are they fraudsters ?

Eastwood's pledge was "he'll stop Brexit", if elected.

A day later, he's re-evaluating his statement.

They'll make no difference in London - simple as.  You should read some of my other messages re: SF.

Pearse Doherty the best of the T.D.'s.  Doing great works on the mortgage crisis/banks and only this week, super work on car insurance.

As I stated before, cllrs. do more work for local people than MLAs or MPs - they make a difference locally.

Are you seriously suggesting that the people of Foyle believed that Eastwood was claiming he would stop Brexit even if Johnson had an majority of 80? They didn't believe that. You don't believe that. Your line of reasoning is daft beyond measure.

I'll have to plead ignorance on Doherty. I don't doubt he has talent but I'm unaware what he has delivered? Happy to illuminated

Imagine a politician telling porkies...who'd have thought it?

#movethegoalposts

Do some research yourself re: Doherty. You claim ignorance but, in the same sentence, say he has talent.  Strange.

P.S. When is Colum stopping Brexit - any timeline mentioned??
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: marty34 on December 15, 2019, 03:31:34 PM
Quote from: Mikhail Prokhorov on December 15, 2019, 12:08:56 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 15, 2019, 11:42:57 AM
Quote from: LCohen on December 15, 2019, 11:10:56 AM
Where to next for the UUP voter. FST is a case apart as the reported UUP vote includes DUP supporters. But in a number of constituencies (East Belfast, south Antrim and Lagan Valley) they can roll in behind Alliance and dislodge DUP. In a few more a similar give from say SDLP (East Antrim) or SDLP + Green (Strangford) will dislodge DUP. The move in moderate unionism is well underway. Moderate nationalism could well do the same. Tactical voting by natural SF supporters would accelerate all of this

All well and good LC, but what difference will it make if there are 5 SDLP, 5 Al and 5 SF mps to 3 unionist mps for example.  It'll make no difference in London with 650 odd mps.

Only time will be a hung parliament but parties lose run of themselves when this happens e.g. DUP.

Wales have 40 mps with 3m population but north has 18 mps with 1.8 m of population.  How are they worked out?

if that happens, they won't be going to london  ;)

No , just discussing the 'pacr' situation in future - if there's a carve up between SDLP, SF and Alliance etc., and they win, say 15 seats, I'm asking what difference will it make?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Armagh18 on December 15, 2019, 03:55:51 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on December 15, 2019, 03:22:13 PM
"Duped".

You should sit down and ponder what you're saying here, which is basically that anyone who doesn't vote like you is incapable of rational thought.

Which, frankly, makes you a bell-end.
Rational thinking and voting Tory? Two polar opposites.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 15, 2019, 04:18:38 PM
What should a centrist position for Labour have looked like ?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on December 15, 2019, 04:19:30 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 15, 2019, 01:53:17 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 15, 2019, 10:11:46 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 15, 2019, 06:13:04 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 15, 2019, 04:37:10 AM
Okay, is it just me or is nobody talking about the fact that the Tories did not win the popular vote? They got 43.6% of the vote. In a PR voting system the pro-Remain vote would have been even stronger and this would have been a hung parliament.

If your Granny had balls she'd be your grandad!

Labour lost and instead of changing the rules they need to figure out how they haven't won an election agains the worst incumbent Govt in history.

Exactly. I like Corbyn but if you can not oust what is probably the most unscrupulous of prime ministers in the history of prime ministers, and that is saying something, then you have no chance. Yes media smear etc etc but a leader needs conviction in his beliefs and he did not display this in his campaign.

What Brexit position should he have taken in this election?

Labour has 2 constituencies. They have polarised views on the leading issue. Any view of Corbyn, the manifesto, the campaign or next steps needs to address the key issue

Any one. Pick one. Have some conviction.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: thewobbler on December 15, 2019, 04:30:39 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on December 15, 2019, 03:55:51 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on December 15, 2019, 03:22:13 PM
"Duped".

You should sit down and ponder what you're saying here, which is basically that anyone who doesn't vote like you is incapable of rational thought.

Which, frankly, makes you a bell-end.
Rational thinking and voting Tory? Two polar opposites.

It's entirely rational to choose what you perceive to be the lesser evil, when faced with two evils.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on December 15, 2019, 04:31:43 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 15, 2019, 03:28:38 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 15, 2019, 01:48:55 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 14, 2019, 10:07:28 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 10:58:54 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 13, 2019, 07:17:45 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on December 13, 2019, 09:59:45 AM
Hanna and Eastwood will be articulate MPs who will explain the nationalist position in London very well.  All necessary to keep progressing towards a New Ireland.  In contrast, what is the point of MPs like Micky Brady and Francie Molloy.  I literally couldn't tell you what they do from one week to the next.

Hanna and Eastwood will make no difference in London - Eastwood said he'll stop Brexit, if elected. Good luck with that a chara! 

Hanna, on the other hand, is likeable but as they were saying on the radio today, she is too nice - full of general soundbites but where does she stand on a re-united Ireland etc.  Won't commit or rock the boat.  Be neutral and bei g everybody's friend won't go on forever.
what difference do SF MLAs make?
What difference do SF MPs make?
What difference do SF TDs make?

Are they fraudsters ?

Eastwood's pledge was "he'll stop Brexit", if elected.

A day later, he's re-evaluating his statement.

They'll make no difference in London - simple as.  You should read some of my other messages re: SF.

Pearse Doherty the best of the T.D.'s.  Doing great works on the mortgage crisis/banks and only this week, super work on car insurance.

As I stated before, cllrs. do more work for local people than MLAs or MPs - they make a difference locally.

Are you seriously suggesting that the people of Foyle believed that Eastwood was claiming he would stop Brexit even if Johnson had an majority of 80? They didn't believe that. You don't believe that. Your line of reasoning is daft beyond measure.

I'll have to plead ignorance on Doherty. I don't doubt he has talent but I'm unaware what he has delivered? Happy to illuminated

Imagine a politician telling porkies...who'd have thought it?

#movethegoalposts

Do some research yourself re: Doherty. You claim ignorance but, in the same sentence, say he has talent.  Strange.

P.S. When is Colum stopping Brexit - any timeline mentioned??

Shinnerbots! Assemble!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 15, 2019, 04:33:52 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on December 15, 2019, 03:55:51 PM
Rational thinking and voting Tory? Two polar opposites.

If you believe that spending more money than tax income is a bad thing, then you'd tend to the fiscal policies of the conservatives.

If you believe that a loan invested in infrastructure will pay itself back in improved GDP and tax takes, then labour makes more sense.

Both are equally valid and rational views. In some cases, the former is definitely better, in other cases, the latter.


Unfortunately, the two parties policies differ on so many things beyond this. Which is why representative democracy in a digital age is a load of utter balls to me.

Voters could easily provide much higher fidelity answers on their wishes for the country than voting for bullshit manifestos which are usually lies anyway.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: marty34 on December 15, 2019, 04:46:22 PM
Quote from: trailer on December 15, 2019, 04:31:43 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 15, 2019, 03:28:38 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 15, 2019, 01:48:55 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 14, 2019, 10:07:28 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 10:58:54 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 13, 2019, 07:17:45 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on December 13, 2019, 09:59:45 AM
Hanna and Eastwood will be articulate MPs who will explain the nationalist position in London very well.  All necessary to keep progressing towards a New Ireland.  In contrast, what is the point of MPs like Micky Brady and Francie Molloy.  I literally couldn't tell you what they do from one week to the next.

Hanna and Eastwood will make no difference in London - Eastwood said he'll stop Brexit, if elected. Good luck with that a chara! 

Hanna, on the other hand, is likeable but as they were saying on the radio today, she is too nice - full of general soundbites but where does she stand on a re-united Ireland etc.  Won't commit or rock the boat.  Be neutral and bei g everybody's friend won't go on forever.
what difference do SF MLAs make?
What difference do SF MPs make?
What difference do SF TDs make?

Are they fraudsters ?

Eastwood's pledge was "he'll stop Brexit", if elected.

A day later, he's re-evaluating his statement.

They'll make no difference in London - simple as.  You should read some of my other messages re: SF.

Pearse Doherty the best of the T.D.'s.  Doing great works on the mortgage crisis/banks and only this week, super work on car insurance.

As I stated before, cllrs. do more work for local people than MLAs or MPs - they make a difference locally.

Are you seriously suggesting that the people of Foyle believed that Eastwood was claiming he would stop Brexit even if Johnson had an majority of 80? They didn't believe that. You don't believe that. Your line of reasoning is daft beyond measure.

I'll have to plead ignorance on Doherty. I don't doubt he has talent but I'm unaware what he has delivered? Happy to illuminated

Imagine a politician telling porkies...who'd have thought it?

#movethegoalposts

Do some research yourself re: Doherty. You claim ignorance but, in the same sentence, say he has talent.  Strange.

P.S. When is Colum stopping Brexit - any timeline mentioned??

Shinnerbots! Assemble!

How's things Colum?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 15, 2019, 04:54:23 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 15, 2019, 04:18:38 PM
What should a centrist position for Labour have looked like ?

Tony Blair?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: bennydorano on December 15, 2019, 05:37:55 PM
Labour's current problems started with  the election of Ed rather than David Milliband. David would have gotten a Blairite Labour Government back in power. Ed was elected by momentum entryists. The gate was closed too late with the change of Leadership election rules. Labour are unelectable as a hard left party, if they don't return to the centre they will rot in opposition.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 15, 2019, 05:45:11 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 15, 2019, 03:28:38 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 15, 2019, 01:48:55 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 14, 2019, 10:07:28 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 10:58:54 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 13, 2019, 07:17:45 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on December 13, 2019, 09:59:45 AM
Hanna and Eastwood will be articulate MPs who will explain the nationalist position in London very well.  All necessary to keep progressing towards a New Ireland.  In contrast, what is the point of MPs like Micky Brady and Francie Molloy.  I literally couldn't tell you what they do from one week to the next.

Hanna and Eastwood will make no difference in London - Eastwood said he'll stop Brexit, if elected. Good luck with that a chara! 

Hanna, on the other hand, is likeable but as they were saying on the radio today, she is too nice - full of general soundbites but where does she stand on a re-united Ireland etc.  Won't commit or rock the boat.  Be neutral and bei g everybody's friend won't go on forever.
what difference do SF MLAs make?
What difference do SF MPs make?
What difference do SF TDs make?

Are they fraudsters ?

Eastwood's pledge was "he'll stop Brexit", if elected.

A day later, he's re-evaluating his statement.

They'll make no difference in London - simple as.  You should read some of my other messages re: SF.

Pearse Doherty the best of the T.D.'s.  Doing great works on the mortgage crisis/banks and only this week, super work on car insurance.

As I stated before, cllrs. do more work for local people than MLAs or MPs - they make a difference locally.

Are you seriously suggesting that the people of Foyle believed that Eastwood was claiming he would stop Brexit even if Johnson had an majority of 80? They didn't believe that. You don't believe that. Your line of reasoning is daft beyond measure.

I'll have to plead ignorance on Doherty. I don't doubt he has talent but I'm unaware what he has delivered? Happy to illuminated

Imagine a politician telling porkies...who'd have thought it?

#movethegoalposts

Do some research yourself re: Doherty. You claim ignorance but, in the same sentence, say he has talent.  Strange.

P.S. When is Colum stopping Brexit - any timeline mentioned??

That is just brainless stuff.

Porkies and moving goal posts. Francis Molliy stood on a United Ireland manifesto. I'll give him to Christmas or I'll expect him to resign. If he doesn't I will get him to talk to you

I've done some research on Doherty. Decent speaker. You might even say he had a talent for it. But I didn't see any evidence of delivery on the issues you mentioned
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 15, 2019, 05:52:10 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 15, 2019, 04:19:30 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 15, 2019, 01:53:17 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 15, 2019, 10:11:46 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 15, 2019, 06:13:04 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 15, 2019, 04:37:10 AM
Okay, is it just me or is nobody talking about the fact that the Tories did not win the popular vote? They got 43.6% of the vote. In a PR voting system the pro-Remain vote would have been even stronger and this would have been a hung parliament.

If your Granny had balls she'd be your grandad!

Labour lost and instead of changing the rules they need to figure out how they haven't won an election agains the worst incumbent Govt in history.

Exactly. I like Corbyn but if you can not oust what is probably the most unscrupulous of prime ministers in the history of prime ministers, and that is saying something, then you have no chance. Yes media smear etc etc but a leader needs conviction in his beliefs and he did not display this in his campaign.

What Brexit position should he have taken in this election?

Labour has 2 constituencies. They have polarised views on the leading issue. Any view of Corbyn, the manifesto, the campaign or next steps needs to address the key issue

Any one. Pick one. Have some conviction.

Ok pick Leave. You lose the vote in the South and fight it out with Tories, Brexit party and UKIP for who is the purest form of Leave.

Pick Remain. What it have turned out very different?

The alternative was to adopt a grown up position. Get a sensible Leave option to run off against Remain.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 15, 2019, 05:55:57 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 15, 2019, 05:37:55 PM
Labour's current problems started with  the election of Ed rather than David Milliband. David would have gotten a Blairite Labour Government back in power. Ed was elected momentum entryists. The gate was closed too late with the change of Leadership election rules. Labour are unelectable as a hard left party, if they don't return to the centre they will rot in opposition.

David Miliband couldn't win a vote when only people called Miliband could stand. Don't think he would have faired much better in the country

Labour are not a hard left party. So your point is redundant
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: bennydorano on December 15, 2019, 06:10:17 PM
Nonsense and if Labour continue to move forward believing Brexit was the sole reason for their catastrophic defeat they will repeat their mistakes and rot in opposition. A JC anointed successor will be electoral poision from the get go as well.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 15, 2019, 06:13:47 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 15, 2019, 06:10:17 PM
Nonsense and if Labour continue to move forward believing Brexit was the sole reason for their catastrophic defeat they will repeat their mistakes and rot in opposition. A JC anointed successor will be electoral poision from the get go as well.

Can you address the Angela Merkel point then.

She is a centre-right politician. Corbyn advocates lower taxes and lower rates of public ownership than a recognised centre right politician. Show me how that is hard left?

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 15, 2019, 06:25:39 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 15, 2019, 06:13:47 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 15, 2019, 06:10:17 PM
Nonsense and if Labour continue to move forward believing Brexit was the sole reason for their catastrophic defeat they will repeat their mistakes and rot in opposition. A JC anointed successor will be electoral poision from the get go as well.

Can you address the Angela Merkel point then.

She is a centre-right politician. Corbyn advocates lower taxes and lower rates of public ownership than a recognised centre right politician. Show me how that is hard left?

Lower taxes? Had he got in I'd have been taxed more!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 15, 2019, 06:27:07 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 15, 2019, 06:25:39 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 15, 2019, 06:13:47 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 15, 2019, 06:10:17 PM
Nonsense and if Labour continue to move forward believing Brexit was the sole reason for their catastrophic defeat they will repeat their mistakes and rot in opposition. A JC anointed successor will be electoral poision from the get go as well.

Can you address the Angela Merkel point then.

She is a centre-right politician. Corbyn advocates lower taxes and lower rates of public ownership than a recognised centre right politician. Show me how that is hard left?

Lower taxes? Had he got in I'd have been taxed more!

Corbyn advocates lower taxes than Angela Merkel is what he said.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 15, 2019, 06:32:09 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 15, 2019, 06:27:07 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 15, 2019, 06:25:39 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 15, 2019, 06:13:47 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 15, 2019, 06:10:17 PM
Nonsense and if Labour continue to move forward believing Brexit was the sole reason for their catastrophic defeat they will repeat their mistakes and rot in opposition. A JC anointed successor will be electoral poision from the get go as well.

Can you address the Angela Merkel point then.

She is a centre-right politician. Corbyn advocates lower taxes and lower rates of public ownership than a recognised centre right politician. Show me how that is hard left?

Lower taxes? Had he got in I'd have been taxed more!

Corbyn advocates lower taxes than Angela Merkel is what he said.

That seems to be the problem with Labour, lots of stuff didn't seem to add up
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 15, 2019, 06:54:53 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 15, 2019, 06:32:09 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 15, 2019, 06:27:07 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 15, 2019, 06:25:39 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 15, 2019, 06:13:47 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 15, 2019, 06:10:17 PM
Nonsense and if Labour continue to move forward believing Brexit was the sole reason for their catastrophic defeat they will repeat their mistakes and rot in opposition. A JC anointed successor will be electoral poision from the get go as well.

Can you address the Angela Merkel point then.

She is a centre-right politician. Corbyn advocates lower taxes and lower rates of public ownership than a recognised centre right politician. Show me how that is hard left?

Lower taxes? Had he got in I'd have been taxed more!

Corbyn advocates lower taxes than Angela Merkel is what he said.

That seems to be the problem with Labour, lots of stuff didn't seem to add up

List them
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 15, 2019, 06:55:58 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on December 15, 2019, 06:35:35 PM
IIRC income tax only makes up about 1/3rd of UK Government revenue in a fiscal year and has done so for the last few decades, it has traditionally been more reliant on indirect taxation to make up for it compared to many of its European neighbours. It's one reason why simply judging taxation in countries simply through income tax rules is flawed.

German VAT is 1% lower than UK.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: marty34 on December 15, 2019, 07:04:48 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 15, 2019, 05:45:11 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 15, 2019, 03:28:38 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 15, 2019, 01:48:55 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 14, 2019, 10:07:28 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 10:58:54 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 13, 2019, 07:17:45 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on December 13, 2019, 09:59:45 AM
Hanna and Eastwood will be articulate MPs who will explain the nationalist position in London very well.  All necessary to keep progressing towards a New Ireland.  In contrast, what is the point of MPs like Micky Brady and Francie Molloy.  I literally couldn't tell you what they do from one week to the next.

Hanna and Eastwood will make no difference in London - Eastwood said he'll stop Brexit, if elected. Good luck with that a chara! 

Hanna, on the other hand, is likeable but as they were saying on the radio today, she is too nice - full of general soundbites but where does she stand on a re-united Ireland etc.  Won't commit or rock the boat.  Be neutral and bei g everybody's friend won't go on forever.
what difference do SF MLAs make?
What difference do SF MPs make?
What difference do SF TDs make?

Are they fraudsters ?

Eastwood's pledge was "he'll stop Brexit", if elected.

A day later, he's re-evaluating his statement.

They'll make no difference in London - simple as.  You should read some of my other messages re: SF.

Pearse Doherty the best of the T.D.'s.  Doing great works on the mortgage crisis/banks and only this week, super work on car insurance.

As I stated before, cllrs. do more work for local people than MLAs or MPs - they make a difference locally.

Are you seriously suggesting that the people of Foyle believed that Eastwood was claiming he would stop Brexit even if Johnson had an majority of 80? They didn't believe that. You don't believe that. Your line of reasoning is daft beyond measure.

I'll have to plead ignorance on Doherty. I don't doubt he has talent but I'm unaware what he has delivered? Happy to illuminated

Imagine a politician telling porkies...who'd have thought it?

#movethegoalposts

Do some research yourself re: Doherty. You claim ignorance but, in the same sentence, say he has talent.  Strange.

P.S. When is Colum stopping Brexit - any timeline mentioned??

That is just brainless stuff.

Porkies and moving goal posts. Francis Molliy stood on a United Ireland manifesto. I'll give him to Christmas or I'll expect him to resign. If he doesn't I will get him to talk to you

I've done some research on Doherty. Decent speaker. You might even say he had a talent for it. But I didn't see any evidence of delivery on the issues you mentioned

Brainless stuff indeed...I'll stop Brexit if elected...lol.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 15, 2019, 08:02:17 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 15, 2019, 05:37:55 PM
Labour's current problems started with  the election of Ed rather than David Milliband. David would have gotten a Blairite Labour Government back in power. Ed was elected by momentum entryists. The gate was closed too late with the change of Leadership election rules. Labour are unelectable as a hard left party, if they don't return to the centre they will rot in opposition.

Wait until the next crash and the collapse of house prices in Surrey accompanied by  the vaporisation of pensions
The Tories won a time bomb.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 15, 2019, 08:05:25 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 15, 2019, 06:32:09 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 15, 2019, 06:27:07 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 15, 2019, 06:25:39 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 15, 2019, 06:13:47 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 15, 2019, 06:10:17 PM
Nonsense and if Labour continue to move forward believing Brexit was the sole reason for their catastrophic defeat they will repeat their mistakes and rot in opposition. A JC anointed successor will be electoral poision from the get go as well.

Can you address the Angela Merkel point then.

She is a centre-right politician. Corbyn advocates lower taxes and lower rates of public ownership than a recognised centre right politician. Show me how that is hard left?

Lower taxes? Had he got in I'd have been taxed more!

Corbyn advocates lower taxes than Angela Merkel is what he said.

That seems to be the problem with Labour, lots of stuff didn't seem to add up
You are going to get your Brexit now
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 15, 2019, 08:36:47 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 15, 2019, 04:54:23 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 15, 2019, 04:18:38 PM
What should a centrist position for Labour have looked like ?

Tony Blair?
New Labour
"believed in the use of markets to deliver economic efficiency and social justice."

So they taxed markets to pay for stuff
That model collapsed in 2008.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 15, 2019, 08:42:06 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 15, 2019, 07:04:48 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 15, 2019, 05:45:11 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 15, 2019, 03:28:38 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 15, 2019, 01:48:55 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 14, 2019, 10:07:28 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 10:58:54 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 13, 2019, 07:17:45 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on December 13, 2019, 09:59:45 AM
Hanna and Eastwood will be articulate MPs who will explain the nationalist position in London very well.  All necessary to keep progressing towards a New Ireland.  In contrast, what is the point of MPs like Micky Brady and Francie Molloy.  I literally couldn't tell you what they do from one week to the next.

Hanna and Eastwood will make no difference in London - Eastwood said he'll stop Brexit, if elected. Good luck with that a chara! 

Hanna, on the other hand, is likeable but as they were saying on the radio today, she is too nice - full of general soundbites but where does she stand on a re-united Ireland etc.  Won't commit or rock the boat.  Be neutral and bei g everybody's friend won't go on forever.
what difference do SF MLAs make?
What difference do SF MPs make?
What difference do SF TDs make?

Are they fraudsters ?

Eastwood's pledge was "he'll stop Brexit", if elected.

A day later, he's re-evaluating his statement.

They'll make no difference in London - simple as.  You should read some of my other messages re: SF.

Pearse Doherty the best of the T.D.'s.  Doing great works on the mortgage crisis/banks and only this week, super work on car insurance.

As I stated before, cllrs. do more work for local people than MLAs or MPs - they make a difference locally.

Are you seriously suggesting that the people of Foyle believed that Eastwood was claiming he would stop Brexit even if Johnson had an majority of 80? They didn't believe that. You don't believe that. Your line of reasoning is daft beyond measure.

I'll have to plead ignorance on Doherty. I don't doubt he has talent but I'm unaware what he has delivered? Happy to illuminated

Imagine a politician telling porkies...who'd have thought it?

#movethegoalposts

Do some research yourself re: Doherty. You claim ignorance but, in the same sentence, say he has talent.  Strange.

P.S. When is Colum stopping Brexit - any timeline mentioned??

That is just brainless stuff.

Porkies and moving goal posts. Francis Molliy stood on a United Ireland manifesto. I'll give him to Christmas or I'll expect him to resign. If he doesn't I will get him to talk to you

I've done some research on Doherty. Decent speaker. You might even say he had a talent for it. But I didn't see any evidence of delivery on the issues you mentioned

Brainless stuff indeed...I'll stop Brexit if elected...lol.

Doherty a disgrace. Gaoth Dobhair in tatters
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 15, 2019, 08:53:39 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 15, 2019, 06:54:53 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 15, 2019, 06:32:09 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 15, 2019, 06:27:07 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 15, 2019, 06:25:39 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 15, 2019, 06:13:47 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 15, 2019, 06:10:17 PM
Nonsense and if Labour continue to move forward believing Brexit was the sole reason for their catastrophic defeat they will repeat their mistakes and rot in opposition. A JC anointed successor will be electoral poision from the get go as well.

Can you address the Angela Merkel point then.

She is a centre-right politician. Corbyn advocates lower taxes and lower rates of public ownership than a recognised centre right politician. Show me how that is hard left?

Lower taxes? Had he got in I'd have been taxed more!

Corbyn advocates lower taxes than Angela Merkel is what he said.

That seems to be the problem with Labour, lots of stuff didn't seem to add up

List them

The shadow chancellor listed them earlier on tv.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 15, 2019, 08:54:41 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 15, 2019, 08:05:25 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 15, 2019, 06:32:09 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 15, 2019, 06:27:07 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 15, 2019, 06:25:39 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 15, 2019, 06:13:47 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 15, 2019, 06:10:17 PM
Nonsense and if Labour continue to move forward believing Brexit was the sole reason for their catastrophic defeat they will repeat their mistakes and rot in opposition. A JC anointed successor will be electoral poision from the get go as well.

Can you address the Angela Merkel point then.

She is a centre-right politician. Corbyn advocates lower taxes and lower rates of public ownership than a recognised centre right politician. Show me how that is hard left?

Lower taxes? Had he got in I'd have been taxed more!

Corbyn advocates lower taxes than Angela Merkel is what he said.

That seems to be the problem with Labour, lots of stuff didn't seem to add up
You are going to get your Brexit now

Well I know where to go when it all goes tits up, halfpenny bridge
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on December 15, 2019, 09:07:33 PM
 Well folks it's all over now as Bozo with 43% of the vote gets nearly 60% of the seats and the 11 MPs taking their seats from the 6 Cos become an irrelevance.
Hopefully this election has speeded up the process of dismantling the Vile Union aka "United Kingdom of Great Britain and North(east)ern Ireland.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on December 15, 2019, 09:15:04 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 15, 2019, 08:53:39 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 15, 2019, 06:54:53 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 15, 2019, 06:32:09 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 15, 2019, 06:27:07 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 15, 2019, 06:25:39 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 15, 2019, 06:13:47 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 15, 2019, 06:10:17 PM
Nonsense and if Labour continue to move forward believing Brexit was the sole reason for their catastrophic defeat they will repeat their mistakes and rot in opposition. A JC anointed successor will be electoral poision from the get go as well.

Can you address the Angela Merkel point then.

She is a centre-right politician. Corbyn advocates lower taxes and lower rates of public ownership than a recognised centre right politician. Show me how that is hard left?

Lower taxes? Had he got in I'd have been taxed more!

Corbyn advocates lower taxes than Angela Merkel is what he said.

That seems to be the problem with Labour, lots of stuff didn't seem to add up

List them

The shadow chancellor listed them earlier on tv.

John McDonnell himself told Labour figures he didn't want to spend another day defending figures on public spending from the manifesto

"I don't want to spend another day fielding legitimate (alongside the usual illegitimate) questions about numbers I am not comfortable with and wouldn't have put out."
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 15, 2019, 09:20:47 PM
Quote from: Kidder81 on December 15, 2019, 09:15:04 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 15, 2019, 08:53:39 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 15, 2019, 06:54:53 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 15, 2019, 06:32:09 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 15, 2019, 06:27:07 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 15, 2019, 06:25:39 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 15, 2019, 06:13:47 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 15, 2019, 06:10:17 PM
Nonsense and if Labour continue to move forward believing Brexit was the sole reason for their catastrophic defeat they will repeat their mistakes and rot in opposition. A JC anointed successor will be electoral poision from the get go as well.

Can you address the Angela Merkel point then.

She is a centre-right politician. Corbyn advocates lower taxes and lower rates of public ownership than a recognised centre right politician. Show me how that is hard left?

Lower taxes? Had he got in I'd have been taxed more!

Corbyn advocates lower taxes than Angela Merkel is what he said.

That seems to be the problem with Labour, lots of stuff didn't seem to add up

List them

The shadow chancellor listed them earlier on tv.

John McDonnell himself told Labour figures he didn't want to spend another day defending figures on public spending from the manifesto

"I don't want to spend another day fielding legitimate (alongside the usual illegitimate) questions about numbers I am not comfortable with and wouldn't have put out."

He took full blame for the whole thing, so whatever he produced obviously was a piss of shit if he went with that statement. Either way it's done, that type of Labour has done nothing. JC didn't seem to want to remain in the EU and list any momentum from the last election.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 15, 2019, 09:24:38 PM
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/dont-blame-corbyn-or-brexit-labour-failed-to-fight-our-broken-politics/
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: whitey on December 15, 2019, 10:47:05 PM
If Labour is upset at being branded "far left" by the media, maybe they shouldn't have picked a fvckin Stalinist as their Head of Strategy-Seamus Milne
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 06:37:29 AM
Do you mind? Adults talking.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: screenexile on December 16, 2019, 09:51:20 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 06:37:29 AM
Do you mind? Adults talking.

Whitey's right this time... just because a lot of staunch Labour people love Corbyn means f**k all the electorate don't and that's all that matters!!

Labour fucked up on Brexit by not having a clear stance on it, this in turn fucked up any chance they had of forming electoral pacts with Lib Dems/Greens around the place. Along with not apologising for the handling of Anti Semitism within the party and then dealing with it properly (Which I agree has been blown out of proportion but it needed to be seen to be handled a lot better than it was). Then you have the Corbyn "terrorist sympathiser" narrative which from a lot of voter opinion I've seen in the last few days was a very real thing.

All this nonsense about how "popular their policies are" is a misnomer they've just had their asses kicked the policies couldn't have been that popular!

They need a major look at how they can appeal to the masses again and appealing to a crowd of wing nuts in Momentum isn't going to work!!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Applesisapples on December 16, 2019, 10:01:22 AM
Quote from: Armagh18 on December 13, 2019, 04:13:55 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on December 13, 2019, 09:59:45 AM
Hanna and Eastwood will be articulate MPs who will explain the nationalist position in London very well.  All necessary to keep progressing towards a New Ireland.  In contrast, what is the point of MPs like Micky Brady and Francie Molloy.  I literally couldn't tell you what they do from one week to the next.
Don't know Francie but Mickey a superb representative couldn't do enough for you.
This is a naive comment, the two English MP's remaining in the Chamber to listen to Colum and Claire will be asleep and the Tory press in the UK won't give them a paragraph. The electorate has given SF a wake up call on the issue of O'Neill's leadership. If she is not replaced they will lose more votes.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on December 16, 2019, 10:12:45 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on December 16, 2019, 10:01:22 AM
Quote from: Armagh18 on December 13, 2019, 04:13:55 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on December 13, 2019, 09:59:45 AM
Hanna and Eastwood will be articulate MPs who will explain the nationalist position in London very well.  All necessary to keep progressing towards a New Ireland.  In contrast, what is the point of MPs like Micky Brady and Francie Molloy.  I literally couldn't tell you what they do from one week to the next.
Don't know Francie but Mickey a superb representative couldn't do enough for you.
This is a naive comment, the two English MP's remaining in the Chamber to listen to Colum and Claire will be asleep and the Tory press in the UK won't give them a paragraph. The electorate has given SF a wake up call on the issue of O'Neill's leadership. If she is not replaced they will lose more votes.

It's not O'Neill's leadership. It's not going to work. Either in Stormont or Westminster. Replacing O'Neill and not turning up won't make any difference. You have to go to your work and sort Education and Health and Infrastructure and Agriculture. SF aren't doing that and they will continue to be punished by the electorate.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 16, 2019, 10:18:49 AM
belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/ruth-dudley-edwards/ruth-dudley-edwards-my-euphoria-at-seeing-the-uk-rescued-from-extremists-who-would-have-destroyed-it-38787183.html...

"English voters .. will always choose moderation.
Culturally, they are sensible, patriotic (in the best sense of the word), suspicious of ideology, pragmatic and opposed to extremism of any kind. "
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Applesisapples on December 16, 2019, 10:20:45 AM
Quote from: trailer on December 16, 2019, 10:12:45 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on December 16, 2019, 10:01:22 AM
Quote from: Armagh18 on December 13, 2019, 04:13:55 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on December 13, 2019, 09:59:45 AM
Hanna and Eastwood will be articulate MPs who will explain the nationalist position in London very well.  All necessary to keep progressing towards a New Ireland.  In contrast, what is the point of MPs like Micky Brady and Francie Molloy.  I literally couldn't tell you what they do from one week to the next.
Don't know Francie but Mickey a superb representative couldn't do enough for you.
This is a naive comment, the two English MP's remaining in the Chamber to listen to Colum and Claire will be asleep and the Tory press in the UK won't give them a paragraph. The electorate has given SF a wake up call on the issue of O'Neill's leadership. If she is not replaced they will lose more votes.

It's not O'Neill's leadership. It's not going to work. Either in Stormont or Westminster. Replacing O'Neill and not turning up won't make any difference. You have to go to your work and sort Education and Health and Infrastructure and Agriculture. SF aren't doing that and they will continue to be punished by the electorate.
That won't be changed at Westminster, the big change in Nationalist politics in recent months has been pressure on health and education which can only be sorted at Stormont. But O'Neill is an issue.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Applesisapples on December 16, 2019, 10:23:08 AM
On the border poll, as a nationalists I'm sick to death of SF bringing this up with out any idea of a plan to deliver it, they wouldn't deliver a majority within their own community let alone NI.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 16, 2019, 10:30:24 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on December 16, 2019, 10:23:08 AM
On the border poll, as a nationalists I'm sick to death of SF bringing this up with out any idea of a plan to deliver it, they wouldn't deliver a majority within their own community let alone NI.

The numbers are not there unfortunately. We would lose it 60/40 at the minute. Far too many nationalists would vote to stay within the UK. Maybe 5 years of Boris and non EU membership will change that.
SF need to concentrate on actually appearing to do some work. A protest party at the very best at the minute. The correct calibre of politician is not there at the minute or at least  are not allowed to progress within the party.
Listened to Eoin O'Broin there on Thursday, why isn't he on more instead of Maskey, McCallion, Anderson et al, fishwives and balloon heads thon
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 16, 2019, 10:38:22 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 16, 2019, 10:30:24 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on December 16, 2019, 10:23:08 AM
On the border poll, as a nationalists I'm sick to death of SF bringing this up with out any idea of a plan to deliver it, they wouldn't deliver a majority within their own community let alone NI.

The numbers are not there unfortunately. We would lose it 60/40 at the minute. Far too many nationalists would vote to stay within the UK. Maybe 5 years of Boris and non EU membership will change that.
SF need to concentrate on actually appearing to do some work. A protest party at the very best at the minute. The correct calibre of politician is not there at the minute or at least  are not allowed to progress within the party.
Listened to Eoin O'Broin there on Thursday, why isn't he on more instead of Maskey, McCallion, Anderson et al, fishwives and balloon heads thon

I think the strategy is to get one done soon, look at the results from it and then in ten years be better prepared. There's no chance it'll happen soon.

Like I said earlier you'd really need to question yourself if you ballot to remain part of the UK if you're a nationalist, the stats for everyone to look at have to be perfect, and the Irish government would need to bend over backwards to appeal to the soft unionists that financially it's s great choice, and for a good period be able to self govern so things can be bed in.

Are there any models they can look at that have worked well?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on December 16, 2019, 10:52:32 AM
Really scotland need to go first.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on December 16, 2019, 11:01:16 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 16, 2019, 10:38:22 AM

Like I said earlier you'd really need to question yourself if you ballot to remain part of the UK if you're a nationalist, the stats for everyone to look at have to be perfect, and the Irish government would need to bend over backwards to appeal to the soft unionists that financially it's s great choice, and for a good period be able to self govern so things can be bed in.

Hardly. The Irish economy tends to collapse every 20-30 years or so. 11 years ago we ended up coming within a hair's breadth of having neither dole paid nor money in ATM machines. In addition our tax burden is much heavier than up north and ain't getting any lighter.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on December 16, 2019, 11:02:43 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 16, 2019, 10:52:32 AM
Really scotland need to go first.

Salmond's upcoming rape trial and finding out who or did or didn't know of the allegations against him while he enjoyed high office might well set that timetable back quite a bit.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 16, 2019, 11:04:42 AM
Quote from: trailer on December 16, 2019, 10:12:45 AM
It's not O'Neill's leadership. It's not going to work. Either in Stormont or Westminster. Replacing O'Neill and not turning up won't make any difference. You have to go to your work and sort Education and Health and Infrastructure and Agriculture. SF aren't doing that and they will continue to be punished by the electorate.

It is O'Neill.

If you asked me to name the biggest obstruction to a United Ireland right now - I'd say its Michelle O'Neill.

They should not be talking about a border poll.

They should instead be
- constantly pointing out what would become better in the North if there was a United Ireland.
- publishing studies on how a transition might be managed.
- publishing frameworks for protecting Ulster-Scots culture.
- publishing forecasts on economic growth as a result of unification.

... and I don't mean get their own to draw up the above. I mean inviting academics and experts from across the world (I'm sure the EU and ROI would be interested in funding some of it anyway) to compile studies, recommendations and projections.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: ned on December 16, 2019, 11:06:42 AM
Quote from: five points on December 16, 2019, 11:02:43 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 16, 2019, 10:52:32 AM
Really scotland need to go first.

Salmond's upcoming rape trial and finding out who or did or didn't know of the allegations against him while he enjoyed high office might well set that timetable back quite a bit.

Allegations, remember! (not suggesting innocence or guilt, by the way). That trial will have no bearing. It's his reputation that will be damaged not the Independence movement's.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on December 16, 2019, 11:21:30 AM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 16, 2019, 11:04:42 AM
Quote from: trailer on December 16, 2019, 10:12:45 AM
It's not O'Neill's leadership. It's not going to work. Either in Stormont or Westminster. Replacing O'Neill and not turning up won't make any difference. You have to go to your work and sort Education and Health and Infrastructure and Agriculture. SF aren't doing that and they will continue to be punished by the electorate.

It is O'Neill.

If you asked me to name the biggest obstruction to a United Ireland right now - I'd say its Michelle O'Neill.

They should not be talking about a border poll.

They should instead be
- constantly pointing out what would become better in the North if there was a United Ireland.
- publishing studies on how a transition might be managed.
- publishing frameworks for protecting Ulster-Scots culture.
- publishing forecasts on economic growth as a result of unification.

... and I don't mean get their own to draw up the above. I mean inviting academics and experts from across the world (I'm sure the EU and ROI would be interested in funding some of it anyway) to compile studies, recommendations and projections.

Good post and spot on.
Also need to dump Maryloo and Michelle and appoint proper leadership.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 16, 2019, 11:25:26 AM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 16, 2019, 11:04:42 AM
Quote from: trailer on December 16, 2019, 10:12:45 AM
It's not O'Neill's leadership. It's not going to work. Either in Stormont or Westminster. Replacing O'Neill and not turning up won't make any difference. You have to go to your work and sort Education and Health and Infrastructure and Agriculture. SF aren't doing that and they will continue to be punished by the electorate.

It is O'Neill.

If you asked me to name the biggest obstruction to a United Ireland right now - I'd say its Michelle O'Neill.

They should not be talking about a border poll.

They should instead be
- constantly pointing out what would become better in the North if there was a United Ireland.
- publishing studies on how a transition might be managed.
- publishing frameworks for protecting Ulster-Scots culture.
- publishing forecasts on economic growth as a result of unification.

... and I don't mean get their own to draw up the above. I mean inviting academics and experts from across the world (I'm sure the EU and ROI would be interested in funding some of it anyway) to compile studies, recommendations and projections.

There are bigger obstacles than her including cost, the views of Irish/Sunday  Independent readers and the competence of the Irish Civil Service
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 16, 2019, 11:27:49 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 16, 2019, 10:38:22 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 16, 2019, 10:30:24 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on December 16, 2019, 10:23:08 AM
On the border poll, as a nationalists I'm sick to death of SF bringing this up with out any idea of a plan to deliver it, they wouldn't deliver a majority within their own community let alone NI.

The numbers are not there unfortunately. We would lose it 60/40 at the minute. Far too many nationalists would vote to stay within the UK. Maybe 5 years of Boris and non EU membership will change that.
SF need to concentrate on actually appearing to do some work. A protest party at the very best at the minute. The correct calibre of politician is not there at the minute or at least  are not allowed to progress within the party.
Listened to Eoin O'Broin there on Thursday, why isn't he on more instead of Maskey, McCallion, Anderson et al, fishwives and balloon heads thon

I think the strategy is to get one done soon, look at the results from it and then in ten years be better prepared. There's no chance it'll happen soon.

Like I said earlier you'd really need to question yourself if you ballot to remain part of the UK if you're a nationalist, the stats for everyone to look at have to be perfect, and the Irish government would need to bend over backwards to appeal to the soft unionists that financially it's s great choice, and for a good period be able to self govern so things can be bed in.

Are there any models they can look at that have worked well?

Agreed on all points
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on December 16, 2019, 11:32:37 AM
Quote from: ned on December 16, 2019, 11:06:42 AM
Quote from: five points on December 16, 2019, 11:02:43 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 16, 2019, 10:52:32 AM
Really scotland need to go first.

Salmond's upcoming rape trial and finding out who or did or didn't know of the allegations against him while he enjoyed high office might well set that timetable back quite a bit.

Allegations, remember! (not suggesting innocence or guilt, by the way). That trial will have no bearing. It's his reputation that will be damaged not the Independence movement's.

Allegations indeed but even if he is acquitted (and I expect he probably will), there will be questions to answer about who knew of them and when. 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 16, 2019, 11:33:49 AM
Quote from: seafoid on December 16, 2019, 11:25:26 AM
There are bigger obstacles than her including cost, the views of Irish/Sunday  Independent readers and the competence of the Irish Civil Service

Yes. Because those are going to be solved by her addressing them whining for a border poll without any forethought whatsoever.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 16, 2019, 12:00:03 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 15, 2019, 07:04:48 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 15, 2019, 05:45:11 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 15, 2019, 03:28:38 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 15, 2019, 01:48:55 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 14, 2019, 10:07:28 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 13, 2019, 10:58:54 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 13, 2019, 07:17:45 PM
Quote from: Sportacus on December 13, 2019, 09:59:45 AM
Hanna and Eastwood will be articulate MPs who will explain the nationalist position in London very well.  All necessary to keep progressing towards a New Ireland.  In contrast, what is the point of MPs like Micky Brady and Francie Molloy.  I literally couldn't tell you what they do from one week to the next.

Hanna and Eastwood will make no difference in London - Eastwood said he'll stop Brexit, if elected. Good luck with that a chara! 

Hanna, on the other hand, is likeable but as they were saying on the radio today, she is too nice - full of general soundbites but where does she stand on a re-united Ireland etc.  Won't commit or rock the boat.  Be neutral and bei g everybody's friend won't go on forever.
what difference do SF MLAs make?
What difference do SF MPs make?
What difference do SF TDs make?

Are they fraudsters ?

Eastwood's pledge was "he'll stop Brexit", if elected.

A day later, he's re-evaluating his statement.

They'll make no difference in London - simple as.  You should read some of my other messages re: SF.

Pearse Doherty the best of the T.D.'s.  Doing great works on the mortgage crisis/banks and only this week, super work on car insurance.

As I stated before, cllrs. do more work for local people than MLAs or MPs - they make a difference locally.

Are you seriously suggesting that the people of Foyle believed that Eastwood was claiming he would stop Brexit even if Johnson had an majority of 80? They didn't believe that. You don't believe that. Your line of reasoning is daft beyond measure.

I'll have to plead ignorance on Doherty. I don't doubt he has talent but I'm unaware what he has delivered? Happy to illuminated

Imagine a politician telling porkies...who'd have thought it?

#movethegoalposts

Do some research yourself re: Doherty. You claim ignorance but, in the same sentence, say he has talent.  Strange.

P.S. When is Colum stopping Brexit - any timeline mentioned??

That is just brainless stuff.

Porkies and moving goal posts. Francis Molliy stood on a United Ireland manifesto. I'll give him to Christmas or I'll expect him to resign. If he doesn't I will get him to talk to you

I've done some research on Doherty. Decent speaker. You might even say he had a talent for it. But I didn't see any evidence of delivery on the issues you mentioned

Brainless stuff indeed...I'll stop Brexit if elected...lol.

Eastwood would have trusted the Foyle electorate to know that if all the people elected to stop Brexit are outnumbered by all the people elected to prosecute Brexit that Brexit will happen.

You seem to be of the opinion that the good people of Foyle were uniquely stupid enough to not work this out. What evidence have you for this?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 16, 2019, 12:06:52 PM
Quote from: screenexile on December 16, 2019, 09:51:20 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 06:37:29 AM
Do you mind? Adults talking.

Whitey's right this time... just because a lot of staunch Labour people love Corbyn means f**k all the electorate don't and that's all that matters!!

Labour fucked up on Brexit by not having a clear stance on it, this in turn fucked up any chance they had of forming electoral pacts with Lib Dems/Greens around the place. Along with not apologising for the handling of Anti Semitism within the party and then dealing with it properly (Which I agree has been blown out of proportion but it needed to be seen to be handled a lot better than it was). Then you have the Corbyn "terrorist sympathiser" narrative which from a lot of voter opinion I've seen in the last few days was a very real thing.

All this nonsense about how "popular their policies are" is a misnomer they've just had their asses kicked the policies couldn't have been that popular!

They need a major look at how they can appeal to the masses again and appealing to a crowd of wing nuts in Momentum isn't going to work!!

Labour have 2 electorates. Their suite policies appealed to one and not the other. An about turn could amount to little more than musical chairs swapping 1 vote for another. The solution isn't easy.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 16, 2019, 12:08:23 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 16, 2019, 11:04:42 AM
Quote from: trailer on December 16, 2019, 10:12:45 AM
It's not O'Neill's leadership. It's not going to work. Either in Stormont or Westminster. Replacing O'Neill and not turning up won't make any difference. You have to go to your work and sort Education and Health and Infrastructure and Agriculture. SF aren't doing that and they will continue to be punished by the electorate.

It is O'Neill.

If you asked me to name the biggest obstruction to a United Ireland right now - I'd say its Michelle O'Neill.

They should not be talking about a border poll.

They should instead be
- constantly pointing out what would become better in the North if there was a United Ireland.
- publishing studies on how a transition might be managed.
- publishing frameworks for protecting Ulster-Scots culture.
- publishing forecasts on economic growth as a result of unification.

... and I don't mean get their own to draw up the above. I mean inviting academics and experts from across the world (I'm sure the EU and ROI would be interested in funding some of it anyway) to compile studies, recommendations and projections.

That is the only route to a UI.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on December 16, 2019, 12:25:44 PM
Quote from: five points on December 13, 2019, 12:40:51 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on December 13, 2019, 12:27:04 PM
The silver lining to the cloud is that a United Ireland is closer. I only hope and pray when it comes about we've moved away from the Varadkar/Murphy Tory style politics on this island and our kids get the United Ireland that brave people a century ago envisioned.

Sorry, I can't ever see North Down voting for a united Ireland.

North Down and MR2 will vote for a UI when the prices for Prosecco and wine start going through the roof  ;)

Seriously though I think the will for a united Ireland will be tested by what impact Brexit has to the pockets of the inhabitants here.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on December 16, 2019, 12:28:27 PM
It's an absolute game changer. Brexit has put it from not in my lifetime(I'm 40) to this could happen before I retire.

It is not remotely imminent and I get that but definitely goalposts have shifted significantly.

Who was the main party here behind it as well... the DUP. You couldn't make it up.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on December 16, 2019, 12:40:22 PM
There'll be a statue of Dodds and Foster in Crossmaglen one day ;D
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: balladmaker on December 16, 2019, 12:40:54 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 16, 2019, 12:28:27 PM
It's an absolute game changer. Brexit has put it from not in my lifetime(I'm 40) to this could happen before I retire.

It is not remotely imminent and I get that but definitely goalposts have shifted significantly.

Who was the main party here behind it as well... the DUP. You couldn't make it up.

Someone earlier said that a border poll tomorrow would yield a 60/40 result in favour of remaining in the UK.  I think it would be much closer than that currently, but with the same outcome.  The GFA allows for a border poll every 7 years to test the water, but only after an initial border poll has been granted by the SoS.  So whether nationalism will win the first border poll seems to be irrelevant to SF at present, so long as they get a poll in the first place.  Personally, I'd prefer to see the groundwork being done and secure the win at the first poll, should that take the next 10 years to complete.

But one thing is for certain imo, a UI is now inevitable, and has been brought forward by a generation due to Brexit.  It is a matter of when, and not if. 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Applesisapples on December 16, 2019, 12:41:33 PM
Question for those in Derry, why did Eastwood win so well. From a distance Anderson is a turn off, was McCallion tarred with that brush? Or does Derry really believe Westminister is the place to be.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Ambrose on December 16, 2019, 12:49:00 PM
Let's not get ahead of ourselves there are a lot of bridges to cross before we can even think about a UI. Speaking of bridges, we have to consider the people who want to build a bridge to Scotland as a way of strengthening the union. As warped as they are, they need to realise that they would have much more clout in Dáil Éireann than they ever will in the House of Commons. That won't be an easy task.
I don't think we will see a UI for at least another generation, probably two. I'm 52 now, I doubt I will see it, but it is definitely closer now than it ever has been at any time in my lifetime.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: HiMucker on December 16, 2019, 12:55:12 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on December 16, 2019, 12:41:33 PM
Question for those in Derry, why did Eastwood win so well. From a distance Anderson is a turn off, was McCallion tarred with that brush? Or does Derry really believe Westminister is the place to be.
McCallion was a terrible candidate. Numerous blunders. Plus the amount of people in Derry connected to or have relatives and friends in front line services would be fairly high. SF was always going to struggle to get their vote considering the strain they have been under.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Ambrose on December 16, 2019, 01:26:33 PM
@sinnfeinireland vote share swings by constituency.

Foyle -19%
W.Belfast -12.9%
E.Derry -10.9%
W.Tyrone -10.6%
Mid Ulster -8.6%
Newry/Armagh -8%
S.Down -7.5%
S.Antrim -6.7%
N.Belfast +5.4%
FST-3.9%
N.Antrim -3.5%
E.Antrim -3.5%
U.Bann -3.4%
Strangford -1.3%
LV -1.1%
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: tbrick18 on December 16, 2019, 02:10:34 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 16, 2019, 11:04:42 AM
Quote from: trailer on December 16, 2019, 10:12:45 AM
It's not O'Neill's leadership. It's not going to work. Either in Stormont or Westminster. Replacing O'Neill and not turning up won't make any difference. You have to go to your work and sort Education and Health and Infrastructure and Agriculture. SF aren't doing that and they will continue to be punished by the electorate.

It is O'Neill.

If you asked me to name the biggest obstruction to a United Ireland right now - I'd say its Michelle O'Neill.

They should not be talking about a border poll.

They should instead be
- constantly pointing out what would become better in the North if there was a United Ireland.
- publishing studies on how a transition might be managed.
- publishing frameworks for protecting Ulster-Scots culture.
- publishing forecasts on economic growth as a result of unification.

... and I don't mean get their own to draw up the above. I mean inviting academics and experts from across the world (I'm sure the EU and ROI would be interested in funding some of it anyway) to compile studies, recommendations and projections.

I think O'Neill is an issue. She's too confrontational, especially when you compare her against Martin.
However, I don't think she'd be enough to put people off a UI.

I agree on all the points you say they should be talking about. I think some of this has already been done in terms of studies by academia. There was a article a few weeks ago about the perceived bias QUB have towards nationalism as in the studies they have done there have been more positive aspects to re-unification than negative ones.

I believe, there are plenty in ROI who would not want re-unification. I believe there are some nationalists who would not vote for a united Ireland as they believe it would hit them in the pocket. I also believe that after Brexit if the economy in NI is hit as hard as has been predicted there would be a substantial traditional unionist demographic who would vote for a united Ireland - in my experience unionist values are all very important unless it's costing them money, then the priorities change. Look how keen the DUP are to get Stormont up and running all of a sudden!

I'm not 100% on this, but I think I can remember reading somewhere that in the Good Friday Agreement, it says a border poll can only be called by UK government and they would only do so if it was felt there was a change in the will of the people towards a united Ireland and a good chance of it winning. Then, after that border poll, even if it was rejected, a further border poll must be held every 7 years. (I might have made this all up, but it's knocking around in the back of my head somewhere).
So part of me thinks, SF are calling for a poll as soon as possible even if they know it will fail as perhaps then next one 7 years later could win due to the effects of Brexit having hit home.

SF haven't helped themselves, as they just don't have a very high calibre of politician at the moment.

One thing I know for sure, I've been telling my kids to stick at school and get a qualification of some sort as I can't see that there are going to be many opportunities for them in this country given Brexit and some of bigotry that just seems to keep dragging on. Depressing times as a parent wondering how your kids are going to survive. Mrs. Tbrick and I have actually had some conversations about moving over the border (we'll probably never do it), such is the feeling of uncertainty for the future.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on December 16, 2019, 02:14:52 PM
Quote from: Ambrose on December 16, 2019, 01:26:33 PM
@sinnfeinireland vote share swings by constituency.

Foyle -19%
W.Belfast -12.9%
E.Derry -10.9%
W.Tyrone -10.6%
Mid Ulster -8.6%
Newry/Armagh -8%
S.Down -7.5%
S.Antrim -6.7%
N.Belfast +5.4%
FST-3.9%
N.Antrim -3.5%
E.Antrim -3.5%
U.Bann -3.4%
Strangford -1.3%
LV -1.1%

A poor election all round then for SF. And winning the Dodds seat was irrelevant anyway, as the Tories no longer need the DUP's support anyway.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 16, 2019, 02:52:30 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on December 16, 2019, 12:55:12 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on December 16, 2019, 12:41:33 PM
Question for those in Derry, why did Eastwood win so well. From a distance Anderson is a turn off, was McCallion tarred with that brush? Or does Derry really believe Westminister is the place to be.
McCallion was a terrible candidate. Numerous blunders. Plus the amount of people in Derry connected to or have relatives and friends in front line services would be fairly high. SF was always going to struggle to get their vote considering the strain they have been under.

Having been very close to canvasser at the doors the scale of the dissatisfaction with Elisha and SF was very very high. This is West of the Bann, which is far removed from Belfast in economics and services, there is no us v them headcount needed either which allows people to be honest in their voting.
Elisha was very poor throughout her tenure, she came across like she was more interested in make -up and hotel rooms than anything else. Blunders which involved major gaffs on hotel rooms in London, poor judgment on her husband's prosecution, the debt collector gaff, sherbet at the volunteer's dance in Ballybofey, James McClean begging letters, silly xmas cards. The whole town was making fun of it.
On top of all of that she made no inroads in any of the important issues in Derry-jobs, health, infrastructure, Magee etc.
Derry has a lot of  poor SF staff who are setting themselves up to run the communities through Peace IV and SIF backhanders. Abortion took 2k votes away also, and maybe more if people had have known before that  Colum would beat her easily. Aontú could have hit 4k if the scale of gap was known the week before, but people played it safe to get her out.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Jeepers Creepers on December 16, 2019, 03:28:04 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 16, 2019, 02:52:30 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on December 16, 2019, 12:55:12 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on December 16, 2019, 12:41:33 PM
Question for those in Derry, why did Eastwood win so well. From a distance Anderson is a turn off, was McCallion tarred with that brush? Or does Derry really believe Westminister is the place to be.
McCallion was a terrible candidate. Numerous blunders. Plus the amount of people in Derry connected to or have relatives and friends in front line services would be fairly high. SF was always going to struggle to get their vote considering the strain they have been under.

Having been very close to canvasser at the doors the scale of the dissatisfaction with Elisha and SF was very very high. This is West of the Bann, which is far removed from Belfast in economics and services, there is no us v them headcount needed either which allows people to be honest in their voting.
Elisha was very poor throughout her tenure, she came across like she was more interested in make -up and hotel rooms than anything else. Blunders which involved major gaffs on hotel rooms in London, poor judgment on her husband's prosecution, the debt collector gaff, sherbet at the volunteer's dance in Ballybofey, James McClean begging letters, silly xmas cards. The whole town was making fun of it.
On top of all of that she made no inroads in any of the important issues in Derry-jobs, health, infrastructure, Magee etc.
Derry has a lot of  poor SF staff who are setting themselves up to run the communities through Peace IV and SIF backhanders. Abortion took 2k votes away also, and maybe more if people had have known before that  Colum would beat her easily. Aontú could have hit 4k if the scale of gap was known the week before, but people played it safe to get her out.

For us non Derry wans , can you elaborate more on these blunders/gaffs. Genuine question by the way.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 16, 2019, 03:35:40 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on December 16, 2019, 02:10:34 PM
I think O'Neill is an issue. She's too confrontational, especially when you compare her against Martin.
However, I don't think she'd be enough to put people off a UI.

Oh its not that she'd put people off - but I suppose thats a part of it too.

Its more that she is utterly ineffective at pointing everyone in the right direction to make it happen. If anything, she is moving in the wrong direction. Until she is gone, I don't see SF ever actually working toward what will help achieve a UI.


SF need to be taking a back seat in terms of the public face of the issue (due to baggage) - but they need to be quietly directing matters behind the scenes
- getting the studies initiated (via MEPs for instance, or their TDs) - but those studies must be neutral 3rd party.
- getting frameworks established (via cross-party working groups in the Dail for example)
- quietly talking with loyalists behind the scenes - seeing what needs to happen for everyones economic best interest (they've done these on the QT before and could do so again)

Basically, right now SF need to be coaxing the matter by presenting factual information on the positives of a UI - and do no more than that (as that is ramming it down the moderate unionist throat). Get the information compiled, put it out there and let it largely speak for itself. SF have too much historical baggage to ever persuade many.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 16, 2019, 03:38:35 PM
Quote from: balladmaker on December 16, 2019, 12:40:54 PM
Someone earlier said that a border poll tomorrow would yield a 60/40 result in favour of remaining in the UK.  I think it would be much closer than that currently, but with the same outcome.  The GFA allows for a border poll every 7 years to test the water, but only after an initial border poll has been granted by the SoS.  So whether nationalism will win the first border poll seems to be irrelevant to SF at present, so long as they get a poll in the first place.  Personally, I'd prefer to see the groundwork being done and secure the win at the first poll, should that take the next 10 years to complete.

Yeah, I agree. A 50% + 1 win is not a win at all. Its far too divisive and will cause as much trouble as it solves.

Unless this place goes to the dung heap altogether over the 12-24 months, then a 5 year campaign of information, coaxing on the positives and looking for a 70+% win is the way to go IMO.


Quote from: balladmaker on December 16, 2019, 12:40:54 PM
But one thing is for certain imo, a UI is now inevitable, and has been brought forward by a generation due to Brexit.  It is a matter of when, and not if.

Agreed. Thanks Arlene!  ;D
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on December 16, 2019, 03:43:19 PM
Quote from: Ambrose on December 16, 2019, 12:49:00 PM
Let's not get ahead of ourselves there are a lot of bridges to cross before we can even think about a UI. Speaking of bridges, we have to consider the people who want to build a bridge to Scotland as a way of strengthening the union. As warped as they are, they need to realise that they would have much more clout in Dáil Éireann than they ever will in the House of Commons. That won't be an easy task.
I don't think we will see a UI for at least another generation, probably two. I'm 52 now, I doubt I will see it, but it is definitely closer now than it ever has been at any time in my lifetime.

The funny thing about the bridge is that if there is going to be a sea border then there'd need to be a border between NI and Scotland on that bridge I would expect so in the highly(highly highly highly highly etc) unlikely scenario they got their bridge they'd get a border too and wouldn't like that)
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on December 16, 2019, 03:50:07 PM
Quote from: balladmaker on December 16, 2019, 12:40:54 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 16, 2019, 12:28:27 PM
It's an absolute game changer. Brexit has put it from not in my lifetime(I'm 40) to this could happen before I retire.

It is not remotely imminent and I get that but definitely goalposts have shifted significantly.

Who was the main party here behind it as well... the DUP. You couldn't make it up.

Someone earlier said that a border poll tomorrow would yield a 60/40 result in favour of remaining in the UK.  I think it would be much closer than that currently, but with the same outcome.  The GFA allows for a border poll every 7 years to test the water, but only after an initial border poll has been granted by the SoS.  So whether nationalism will win the first border poll seems to be irrelevant to SF at present, so long as they get a poll in the first place.  Personally, I'd prefer to see the groundwork being done and secure the win at the first poll, should that take the next 10 years to complete.

But one thing is for certain imo, a UI is now inevitable, and has been brought forward by a generation due to Brexit.  It is a matter of when, and not if.

This isn't correct. What the GFA says is that you cannot have another border poll until at least 7 years after the initial one. So if one is called and lost, it does not mean another will be called automatically 7 years later. It's in the gift of the British SOS to call it.

The nationalist community has a long way to travel before a border poll should be called. I mentioned I think in a different thread about British government paying their way and some of the responses were scary. "Britain shouldn't be involved" etc. Real silly immature stuff. So we need leadership on both sides but especially Nationalism. SF banging the unity now drum just plays to their base, but has no substance. The conversation should be opened up, but we're a good wile off poss 10 years +

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 16, 2019, 04:14:30 PM
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on December 16, 2019, 03:28:04 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 16, 2019, 02:52:30 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on December 16, 2019, 12:55:12 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on December 16, 2019, 12:41:33 PM
Question for those in Derry, why did Eastwood win so well. From a distance Anderson is a turn off, was McCallion tarred with that brush? Or does Derry really believe Westminister is the place to be.
McCallion was a terrible candidate. Numerous blunders. Plus the amount of people in Derry connected to or have relatives and friends in front line services would be fairly high. SF was always going to struggle to get their vote considering the strain they have been under.

Having been very close to canvasser at the doors the scale of the dissatisfaction with Elisha and SF was very very high. This is West of the Bann, which is far removed from Belfast in economics and services, there is no us v them headcount needed either which allows people to be honest in their voting.
Elisha was very poor throughout her tenure, she came across like she was more interested in make -up and hotel rooms than anything else. Blunders which involved major gaffs on hotel rooms in London, poor judgment on her husband's prosecution, the debt collector gaff, sherbet at the volunteer's dance in Ballybofey, James McClean begging letters, silly xmas cards. The whole town was making fun of it.
On top of all of that she made no inroads in any of the important issues in Derry-jobs, health, infrastructure, Magee etc.
Derry has a lot of  poor SF staff who are setting themselves up to run the communities through Peace IV and SIF backhanders. Abortion took 2k votes away also, and maybe more if people had have known before that  Colum would beat her easily. Aontú could have hit 4k if the scale of gap was known the week before, but people played it safe to get her out.

For us non Derry wans , can you elaborate more on these blunders/gaffs. Genuine question by the way.

She posted a pic on social media complaining about the hardships of having a tiny room on one of her Westminster trips(whilst SF ushered in welfare reforms-they apparently don't go to Westminster). It got widespread social media attention in Derry
Her husband attacked 2 pensioners(not her fault), but she approached them looking charges dropped.
She posted a video last week telling the people of Cornshell(working class area in Shantallow) to open their doors as it wasn't "debt collectors" it was SF. Boo Boo!
She sent letters to people's houses from James McClaen which more or less said, we know yous are not doing well in Derry at the minute but look who is one of my muckers.
2 very close associates in Galliagh SF(where she is from) sent pic out from volunteer's dinner in Ballybofey(they forgot there was Columbian party powder on table in pic).

A new age disaster of a politician.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Walter Cronc on December 16, 2019, 04:42:02 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 16, 2019, 04:14:30 PM
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on December 16, 2019, 03:28:04 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 16, 2019, 02:52:30 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on December 16, 2019, 12:55:12 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on December 16, 2019, 12:41:33 PM
Question for those in Derry, why did Eastwood win so well. From a distance Anderson is a turn off, was McCallion tarred with that brush? Or does Derry really believe Westminister is the place to be.
McCallion was a terrible candidate. Numerous blunders. Plus the amount of people in Derry connected to or have relatives and friends in front line services would be fairly high. SF was always going to struggle to get their vote considering the strain they have been under.

Having been very close to canvasser at the doors the scale of the dissatisfaction with Elisha and SF was very very high. This is West of the Bann, which is far removed from Belfast in economics and services, there is no us v them headcount needed either which allows people to be honest in their voting.
Elisha was very poor throughout her tenure, she came across like she was more interested in make -up and hotel rooms than anything else. Blunders which involved major gaffs on hotel rooms in London, poor judgment on her husband's prosecution, the debt collector gaff, sherbet at the volunteer's dance in Ballybofey, James McClean begging letters, silly xmas cards. The whole town was making fun of it.
On top of all of that she made no inroads in any of the important issues in Derry-jobs, health, infrastructure, Magee etc.
Derry has a lot of  poor SF staff who are setting themselves up to run the communities through Peace IV and SIF backhanders. Abortion took 2k votes away also, and maybe more if people had have known before that  Colum would beat her easily. Aontú could have hit 4k if the scale of gap was known the week before, but people played it safe to get her out.

For us non Derry wans , can you elaborate more on these blunders/gaffs. Genuine question by the way.

She posted a pic on social media complaining about the hardships of having a tiny room on one of her Westminster trips(whilst SF ushered in welfare reforms-they apparently don't go to Westminster). It got widespread social media attention in Derry
Her husband attacked 2 pensioners(not her fault), but she approached them looking charges dropped.
She posted a video last week telling the people of Cornshell(working class area in Shantallow) to open their doors as it wasn't "debt collectors" it was SF. Boo Boo!
She sent letters to people's houses from James McClaen which more or less said, we know yous are not doing well in Derry at the minute but look who is one of my muckers.
2 very close associates in Galliagh SF(where she is from) sent pic out from volunteer's dinner in Ballybofey(they forgot there was Columbian party powder on table in pic).

A new age disaster of a politician.

What is it with certain women in SF at the minute - O'Neill, Anderson, McCallion, Hardy - all absolute melts!!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 16, 2019, 05:03:10 PM
... and Michelle Gildernew is one of the best people they have.

Unfortunately is the eejits getting the airtime.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 05:14:59 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 16, 2019, 10:18:49 AM
belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/ruth-dudley-edwards/ruth-dudley-edwards-my-euphoria-at-seeing-the-uk-rescued-from-extremists-who-would-have-destroyed-it-38787183.html...

"English voters .. will always choose moderation.
Culturally, they are sensible, patriotic (in the best sense of the word), suspicious of ideology, pragmatic and opposed to extremism of any kind. "

I'll have some of what she's having.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 05:17:10 PM
Quote from: five points on December 16, 2019, 11:01:16 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 16, 2019, 10:38:22 AM

Like I said earlier you'd really need to question yourself if you ballot to remain part of the UK if you're a nationalist, the stats for everyone to look at have to be perfect, and the Irish government would need to bend over backwards to appeal to the soft unionists that financially it's s great choice, and for a good period be able to self govern so things can be bed in.

Hardly. The Irish economy tends to collapse every 20-30 years or so. 11 years ago we ended up coming within a hair's breadth of having neither dole paid nor money in ATM machines. In addition our tax burden is much heavier than up north and ain't getting any lighter.

That was also true in every country on the planet. It was a global financial collapse that was averted, not a local one.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 05:19:56 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 16, 2019, 11:04:42 AM
Quote from: trailer on December 16, 2019, 10:12:45 AM
It's not O'Neill's leadership. It's not going to work. Either in Stormont or Westminster. Replacing O'Neill and not turning up won't make any difference. You have to go to your work and sort Education and Health and Infrastructure and Agriculture. SF aren't doing that and they will continue to be punished by the electorate.

It is O'Neill.

If you asked me to name the biggest obstruction to a United Ireland right now - I'd say its Michelle O'Neill.

They should not be talking about a border poll.

I agree.

QuoteThey should instead be
- constantly pointing out what would become better in the North if there was a United Ireland.
- publishing studies on how a transition might be managed.
- publishing frameworks for protecting Ulster-Scots culture.
- publishing forecasts on economic growth as a result of unification.

... and I don't mean get their own to draw up the above. I mean inviting academics and experts from across the world (I'm sure the EU and ROI would be interested in funding some of it anyway) to compile studies, recommendations and projections.

They actually did this already, and they "launched" it twice in an attempt to give it some publicity. They got independent experts to assess it and they found that reunification would boost GDP through the elimination of duplicated public services. That was before Brexit, mind you.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 16, 2019, 05:28:39 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 05:17:10 PM
Quote from: five points on December 16, 2019, 11:01:16 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 16, 2019, 10:38:22 AM

Like I said earlier you'd really need to question yourself if you ballot to remain part of the UK if you're a nationalist, the stats for everyone to look at have to be perfect, and the Irish government would need to bend over backwards to appeal to the soft unionists that financially it's s great choice, and for a good period be able to self govern so things can be bed in.

Hardly. The Irish economy tends to collapse every 20-30 years or so. 11 years ago we ended up coming within a hair's breadth of having neither dole paid nor money in ATM machines. In addition our tax burden is much heavier than up north and ain't getting any lighter.

That was also true in every country on the planet. It was a global financial collapse that was averted, not a local one.

Greece and Italy were in similar debts
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 05:44:41 PM
A border poll is far down the list of things that need to happen between now an Irish reunification. Higher on the list is the desegregation of society in the north along religious lines, but I don't see a whole lot of progress being made on that front. SF have had the education portfolio for years and were able to scrap the grammar school system over the objections of recalcitrant people who wanted to retain selection, but don't seem to have the same eagerness for scrapping the unacceptable practice of keeping school kids segregated by religion until they go to the tech or go to Uni.

In fact SF's business model seems to be "complain about how unfairly treated we are by the evil Brits and that should keep the votes coming in." They'll probably spend the next decade banging on about why we need a border poll now and how unreasonable the Brits are for not providing one.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 16, 2019, 05:47:47 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 05:44:41 PM
A border poll is far down the list of things that need to happen between now an Irish reunification. Higher on the list is the desegregation of society in the north along religious lines, but I don't see a whole lot of progress being made on that front. SF have had the education portfolio for years and were able to scrap the grammar school system over the objections of recalcitrant people who wanted to retain selection, but don't seem to have the same eagerness for scrapping the unacceptable practice of keeping school kids segregated by religion until they go to the tech or go to Uni.

In fact SF's business model seems to be "complain about how unfairly treated we are by the evil Brits and that should keep the votes coming in." They'll probably spend the next decade banging on about why we need a border poll now and how unreasonable the Brits are for not providing one.

Scrapping the grammar schools? When did this happen?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on December 16, 2019, 06:22:01 PM
Yeah, would be very interested in knowing when that happened.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 16, 2019, 06:31:06 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 05:17:10 PM
Quote from: five points on December 16, 2019, 11:01:16 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 16, 2019, 10:38:22 AM

Like I said earlier you'd really need to question yourself if you ballot to remain part of the UK if you're a nationalist, the stats for everyone to look at have to be perfect, and the Irish government would need to bend over backwards to appeal to the soft unionists that financially it's s great choice, and for a good period be able to self govern so things can be bed in.

Hardly. The Irish economy tends to collapse every 20-30 years or so. 11 years ago we ended up coming within a hair's breadth of having neither dole paid nor money in ATM machines. In addition our tax burden is much heavier than up north and ain't getting any lighter.

That was also true in every country on the planet. It was a global financial collapse that was averted, not a local one.
The Irish economy is low corporate tax and extremely open so when there is a crisis it tends to be extremely volatile
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on December 16, 2019, 06:39:57 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 05:44:41 PM
A border poll is far down the list of things that need to happen between now an Irish reunification. Higher on the list is the desegregation of society in the north along religious lines, but I don't see a whole lot of progress being made on that front. SF have had the education portfolio for years and were able to scrap the grammar school system over the objections of recalcitrant people who wanted to retain selection, but don't seem to have the same eagerness for scrapping the unacceptable practice of keeping school kids segregated by religion until they go to the tech or go to Uni.

In fact SF's business model seems to be "complain about how unfairly treated we are by the evil Brits and that should keep the votes coming in." They'll probably spend the next decade banging on about why we need a border poll now and how unreasonable the Brits are for not providing one.
Ahh the magic bullet of integrated education.
Will these schools teach Irish history, Gaelige, do gaelic games?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 16, 2019, 06:55:11 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 16, 2019, 06:39:57 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 05:44:41 PM
A border poll is far down the list of things that need to happen between now an Irish reunification. Higher on the list is the desegregation of society in the north along religious lines, but I don't see a whole lot of progress being made on that front. SF have had the education portfolio for years and were able to scrap the grammar school system over the objections of recalcitrant people who wanted to retain selection, but don't seem to have the same eagerness for scrapping the unacceptable practice of keeping school kids segregated by religion until they go to the tech or go to Uni.

In fact SF's business model seems to be "complain about how unfairly treated we are by the evil Brits and that should keep the votes coming in." They'll probably spend the next decade banging on about why we need a border poll now and how unreasonable the Brits are for not providing one.
Ahh the magic bullet of integrated education.
Will these schools teach Irish history, Gaelige, do gaelic games?

Yes
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 16, 2019, 06:57:12 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 16, 2019, 03:43:19 PM
Quote from: Ambrose on December 16, 2019, 12:49:00 PM
Let's not get ahead of ourselves there are a lot of bridges to cross before we can even think about a UI. Speaking of bridges, we have to consider the people who want to build a bridge to Scotland as a way of strengthening the union. As warped as they are, they need to realise that they would have much more clout in Dáil Éireann than they ever will in the House of Commons. That won't be an easy task.
I don't think we will see a UI for at least another generation, probably two. I'm 52 now, I doubt I will see it, but it is definitely closer now than it ever has been at any time in my lifetime.

The funny thing about the bridge is that if there is going to be a sea border then there'd need to be a border between NI and Scotland on that bridge I would expect so in the highly(highly highly highly highly etc) unlikely scenario they got their bridge they'd get a border too and wouldn't like that)

Chances of there ever being a bridge is zero
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on December 16, 2019, 07:03:23 PM
Why not? Makes it far easier for them to get to & from Ibrox & various LOL marches in Glasgow, where they can spit on priests & celebrate their culture to their heart's content.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 07:06:57 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 16, 2019, 06:22:01 PM
Yeah, would be very interested in knowing when that happened.

I stand corrected. Seems like it was a local thing in North Armagh.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on December 16, 2019, 07:32:06 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 07:06:57 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 16, 2019, 06:22:01 PM
Yeah, would be very interested in knowing when that happened.

I stand corrected. Seems like it was a local thing in North Armagh.

St. Ronan's? It's still a grammar school.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 16, 2019, 07:42:11 PM
https://www.ft.com/content/628bfd48-2029-11ea-b8a1-584213ee7b2b

The negotiations at Stormont, the regional parliament building outside Belfast, follow last week's general election in which the Democratic Unionists and Sinn Féin, the largest pro-British and Irish nationalist parties, respectively, both saw their share of the vote fall. The outcome has raised the stakes for the talks because Julian Smith, secretary of state for Northern Ireland, has threatened to invoke his powers to call new regional elections if there is no deal by January 13, an unappealing prospect for both the DUP and Sinn Féin after losing support.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 16, 2019, 07:58:14 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on December 16, 2019, 07:03:23 PM
Why not? Makes it far easier for them to get to & from Ibrox & various LOL marches in Glasgow, where they can spit on priests & celebrate their culture to their heart's content.

From an engineering perspective a bridge to Scotland is more likely than a bridge from Ballintoy to Saturn. But only marginally.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 08:18:25 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 16, 2019, 07:32:06 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 07:06:57 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 16, 2019, 06:22:01 PM
Yeah, would be very interested in knowing when that happened.

I stand corrected. Seems like it was a local thing in North Armagh.

St. Ronan's? It's still a grammar school.

Are you sure?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: gallsman on December 16, 2019, 08:28:21 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 08:18:25 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 16, 2019, 07:32:06 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 07:06:57 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 16, 2019, 06:22:01 PM
Yeah, would be very interested in knowing when that happened.

I stand corrected. Seems like it was a local thing in North Armagh.

St. Ronan's? It's still a grammar school.

Are you sure?

Yes, it's a non-selective grammar.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: dec on December 16, 2019, 08:33:51 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 08:18:25 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 16, 2019, 07:32:06 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 07:06:57 PM
Quote from: gallsman on December 16, 2019, 06:22:01 PM
Yeah, would be very interested in knowing when that happened.

I stand corrected. Seems like it was a local thing in North Armagh.

St. Ronan's? It's still a grammar school.

Are you sure?

St Ronan's is an all ability school, it is a merger of a grammar school and 2 secondary schools.

Sinn Fein did not abolish grammar schools, they got rid of the state run 11 plus/transfer test.

The grammar schools then simply created their own transfer test as a replacement. It being Northern Ireland there are now 2 tests.

https://www.thetransfertest.com/schools

AQE mostly Protestant schools
GL mostly Catholic schools

The North Armagh thing you are thinking of is probably the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dickson_Plan
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 16, 2019, 08:42:43 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 05:19:56 PM
They actually did this already, and they "launched" it twice in an attempt to give it some publicity. They got independent experts to assess it and they found that reunification would boost GDP through the elimination of duplicated public services. That was before Brexit, mind you.

I know the one you are talking about. Was done by German academics who had studied German reunification.

But they need to be getting new studies along these lines released every 6 months. The releases must be done without Sinn Fein involvement. It has to be seen as independent - at least in presentation of findings.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: tbrick18 on December 16, 2019, 09:07:41 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 16, 2019, 06:55:11 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 16, 2019, 06:39:57 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 05:44:41 PM
A border poll is far down the list of things that need to happen between now an Irish reunification. Higher on the list is the desegregation of society in the north along religious lines, but I don't see a whole lot of progress being made on that front. SF have had the education portfolio for years and were able to scrap the grammar school system over the objections of recalcitrant people who wanted to retain selection, but don't seem to have the same eagerness for scrapping the unacceptable practice of keeping school kids segregated by religion until they go to the tech or go to Uni.

In fact SF's business model seems to be "complain about how unfairly treated we are by the evil Brits and that should keep the votes coming in." They'll probably spend the next decade banging on about why we need a border poll now and how unreasonable the Brits are for not providing one.
Ahh the magic bullet of integrated education.
Will these schools teach Irish history, Gaelige, do gaelic games?

Yes

No.
Integrated education is a fantastic idea, however, it is not universally implemented in the same way.
In my experience of it, there was no irish history, Irish language or gaelic games. However, there were Ulster Scotts classes, Badminton, soccer and table tennis.
In a school primarily staffed by Catholic Staff, with Protestant management. A primarily catholic intake at that time - and kids not getting places as there were too many catholics. Quite a few Protestant families complaining about the lack of Gaelic/Irish as they wanted there kids to experience something they felt they couldn't get elsewhere and also quite a few protestant families complaining when a teacher wore a gaelic top to a sponsored walk fund raiser.
The quality of education was also not what either the state or catholic schools (primary schools) as hardly anyone sat or had the ability to sit the transfer test.
No-one was happy with the level of integration, or lack thereof, in the integrated school I have experience of.

From what I have seen of it, Integrated education will only work if the management, staff and families who send their kids to these schools live and breath and integrated ethos. Staff, IMO, integrated schools are only there as they couldn't get a job in a school from their respective tradition. In many cases, kids in the schools are the same, though, there is a sizeable number of mixed marriages with kids in integrated schools.

I know I've gone on a bit of a rant there on Integrated Education, but it galls me to hear so much spouted about the virtues of Integrated Education when the realities don't really live up to the expectations.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 16, 2019, 09:16:17 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on December 16, 2019, 09:07:41 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 16, 2019, 06:55:11 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 16, 2019, 06:39:57 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 05:44:41 PM
A border poll is far down the list of things that need to happen between now an Irish reunification. Higher on the list is the desegregation of society in the north along religious lines, but I don't see a whole lot of progress being made on that front. SF have had the education portfolio for years and were able to scrap the grammar school system over the objections of recalcitrant people who wanted to retain selection, but don't seem to have the same eagerness for scrapping the unacceptable practice of keeping school kids segregated by religion until they go to the tech or go to Uni.

In fact SF's business model seems to be "complain about how unfairly treated we are by the evil Brits and that should keep the votes coming in." They'll probably spend the next decade banging on about why we need a border poll now and how unreasonable the Brits are for not providing one.
Ahh the magic bullet of integrated education.
Will these schools teach Irish history, Gaelige, do gaelic games?

Yes

No.
Integrated education is a fantastic idea, however, it is not universally implemented in the same way.
In my experience of it, there was no irish history, Irish language or gaelic games. However, there were Ulster Scotts classes, Badminton, soccer and table tennis.
In a school primarily staffed by Catholic Staff, with Protestant management. A primarily catholic intake at that time - and kids not getting places as there were too many catholics. Quite a few Protestant families complaining about the lack of Gaelic/Irish as they wanted there kids to experience something they felt they couldn't get elsewhere and also quite a few protestant families complaining when a teacher wore a gaelic top to a sponsored walk fund raiser.
The quality of education was also not what either the state or catholic schools (primary schools) as hardly anyone sat or had the ability to sit the transfer test.
No-one was happy with the level of integration, or lack thereof, in the integrated school I have experience of.

From what I have seen of it, Integrated education will only work if the management, staff and families who send their kids to these schools live and breath and integrated ethos. Staff, IMO, integrated schools are only there as they couldn't get a job in a school from their respective tradition. In many cases, kids in the schools are the same, though, there is a sizeable number of mixed marriages with kids in integrated schools.

I know I've gone on a bit of a rant there on Integrated Education, but it galls me to hear so much spouted about the virtues of Integrated Education when the realities don't really live up to the expectations.

My experience would be the polar opposite.

What we need to do is remove segregated education and simply have education.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: michaelg on December 16, 2019, 09:23:48 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on December 16, 2019, 09:07:41 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 16, 2019, 06:55:11 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 16, 2019, 06:39:57 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 05:44:41 PM
A border poll is far down the list of things that need to happen between now an Irish reunification. Higher on the list is the desegregation of society in the north along religious lines, but I don't see a whole lot of progress being made on that front. SF have had the education portfolio for years and were able to scrap the grammar school system over the objections of recalcitrant people who wanted to retain selection, but don't seem to have the same eagerness for scrapping the unacceptable practice of keeping school kids segregated by religion until they go to the tech or go to Uni.

In fact SF's business model seems to be "complain about how unfairly treated we are by the evil Brits and that should keep the votes coming in." They'll probably spend the next decade banging on about why we need a border poll now and how unreasonable the Brits are for not providing one.
Ahh the magic bullet of integrated education.
Will these schools teach Irish history, Gaelige, do gaelic games?

Yes

No.
Integrated education is a fantastic idea, however, it is not universally implemented in the same way.
In my experience of it, there was no irish history, Irish language or gaelic games. However, there were Ulster Scotts classes, Badminton, soccer and table tennis.
In a school primarily staffed by Catholic Staff, with Protestant management. A primarily catholic intake at that time - and kids not getting places as there were too many catholics. Quite a few Protestant families complaining about the lack of Gaelic/Irish as they wanted there kids to experience something they felt they couldn't get elsewhere and also quite a few protestant families complaining when a teacher wore a gaelic top to a sponsored walk fund raiser.
The quality of education was also not what either the state or catholic schools (primary schools) as hardly anyone sat or had the ability to sit the transfer test.
No-one was happy with the level of integration, or lack thereof, in the integrated school I have experience of.

From what I have seen of it, Integrated education will only work if the management, staff and families who send their kids to these schools live and breath and integrated ethos. Staff, IMO, integrated schools are only there as they couldn't get a job in a school from their respective tradition. In many cases, kids in the schools are the same, though, there is a sizeable number of mixed marriages with kids in integrated schools.

I know I've gone on a bit of a rant there on Integrated Education, but it galls me to hear so much spouted about the virtues of Integrated Education when the realities don't really live up to the expectations.
Can't believe you could get so irked about a  spot of badmington and table tennis!  Surely the main virtue of integrated is that young people are being educated together from an early age, building life long friendships and realising that the folk from the other "community" don't have two heads.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on December 16, 2019, 09:44:30 PM
St Mary's has a lot to answer for regarding the teachers in the current education system. They are unwilling to share or integrate at all. It's has a very conservative Irish ethos.
Integrated Education is a brilliant idea. Unfortunately it's being implemented by people used to segregation and getting their own way, who then see everything as a concession.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Armagh18 on December 16, 2019, 09:50:10 PM
Quote from: trailer on December 16, 2019, 09:44:30 PM
St Mary's has a lot to answer for regarding the teachers in the current education system. They are unwilling to share or integrate at all. It's has a very conservative Irish ethos.
Integrated Education is a brilliant idea. Unfortunately it's being implemented by people used to segregation and getting their own way, who then see everything as a concession.
So we should now apologise for being too Irish. Ffs
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on December 16, 2019, 09:56:47 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on December 16, 2019, 09:50:10 PM
Quote from: trailer on December 16, 2019, 09:44:30 PM
St Mary's has a lot to answer for regarding the teachers in the current education system. They are unwilling to share or integrate at all. It's has a very conservative Irish ethos.
Integrated Education is a brilliant idea. Unfortunately it's being implemented by people used to segregation and getting their own way, who then see everything as a concession.
So we should now apologise for being too Irish. Ffs

I didn't say that.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: marty34 on December 16, 2019, 09:57:48 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on December 16, 2019, 09:07:41 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 16, 2019, 06:55:11 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 16, 2019, 06:39:57 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 05:44:41 PM
A border poll is far down the list of things that need to happen between now an Irish reunification. Higher on the list is the desegregation of society in the north along religious lines, but I don't see a whole lot of progress being made on that front. SF have had the education portfolio for years and were able to scrap the grammar school system over the objections of recalcitrant people who wanted to retain selection, but don't seem to have the same eagerness for scrapping the unacceptable practice of keeping school kids segregated by religion until they go to the tech or go to Uni.

In fact SF's business model seems to be "complain about how unfairly treated we are by the evil Brits and that should keep the votes coming in." They'll probably spend the next decade banging on about why we need a border poll now and how unreasonable the Brits are for not providing one.
Ahh the magic bullet of integrated education.
Will these schools teach Irish history, Gaelige, do gaelic games?

Yes

No.
Integrated education is a fantastic idea, however, it is not universally implemented in the same way.
In my experience of it, there was no irish history, Irish language or gaelic games. However, there were Ulster Scotts classes, Badminton, soccer and table tennis.
In a school primarily staffed by Catholic Staff, with Protestant management. A primarily catholic intake at that time - and kids not getting places as there were too many catholics. Quite a few Protestant families complaining about the lack of Gaelic/Irish as they wanted there kids to experience something they felt they couldn't get elsewhere and also quite a few protestant families complaining when a teacher wore a gaelic top to a sponsored walk fund raiser.
The quality of education was also not what either the state or catholic schools (primary schools) as hardly anyone sat or had the ability to sit the transfer test.
No-one was happy with the level of integration, or lack thereof, in the integrated school I have experience of.

From what I have seen of it, Integrated education will only work if the management, staff and families who send their kids to these schools live and breath and integrated ethos. Staff, IMO, integrated schools are only there as they couldn't get a job in a school from their respective tradition. In many cases, kids in the schools are the same, though, there is a sizeable number of mixed marriages with kids in integrated schools.

I know I've gone on a bit of a rant there on Integrated Education, but it galls me to hear so much spouted about the virtues of Integrated Education when the realities don't really live up to the expectations.

True - go to school and then back to their own 'areas'.  It's fantasy schooling.  Not the demand for it.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on December 16, 2019, 10:05:41 PM
f**k it. Lets just keep on going the way we always have then ram unification down everyones throats in a take it or leave it 50+1 vote. It'll be grand.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Walter Cronc on December 16, 2019, 10:57:02 PM
Another point, since the results we have clowns in SF some how attacking both Alliance and SDLP. Just accept you got your arses handed to you in Foyle and quit the slabbering on social media.

There's a reason SF vote was down in most constituencies, they take us for granted and have done sweet FA in working class areas.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Snapchap on December 16, 2019, 11:01:57 PM
Quote from: trailer on December 16, 2019, 10:05:41 PM
f**k it. Lets just keep on going the way we always have then ram unification down everyones throats in a take it or leave it 50+1 vote. It'll be grand.

In other words, lets ram it down people's throat by sticking to the very guidelines set out in the GFA that those same people voted overwhelmingly in favour of?

So what % do you suggest it should be for a vote in favour of reunification to be valid? Or to put that another way, exactly how much more valuable is a unionist's vote be over a nationalist's vote, in your eyes?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 11:07:37 PM
Only in NI do people think it's physically impossible for catholics and protestants to be given a decent quality education in the same school. This is the kind of thing I have a hard time explaining to my wife. Being American, she sees everyone in NI as white and doesn't know what the difference is between a catholic and a protestant. When she went to school religion didn't get a look in. Schools in California are civic institutions that reflect the diversity of society, and religion is something you do on your own time. What a concept.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 11:10:12 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on December 16, 2019, 11:01:57 PM
Quote from: trailer on December 16, 2019, 10:05:41 PM
f**k it. Lets just keep on going the way we always have then ram unification down everyones throats in a take it or leave it 50+1 vote. It'll be grand.

In other words, lets ram it down people's throat by sticking to the very guidelines set out in the GFA that those same people voted overwhelmingly in favour of?

So what % do you suggest it should be for a vote in favour of reunification to be valid? Or to put that another way, exactly how much more valuable is a unionist's vote be over a nationalist's vote, in your eyes?

It's not a question of being "valid." It's a question of achieving unity when there's a good consensus for it and when it's not such a bitterly divisive issue. It's about reunification happening peacefully and with less likelihood of a violent loyalist backlash or even civil war. But you try explaining that to the "integrated education will never happen so we should just keep them separate" crowd.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 11:26:19 PM
Quote from: trailer on December 16, 2019, 09:44:30 PM
St Mary's has a lot to answer for regarding the teachers in the current education system. They are unwilling to share or integrate at all. It's has a very conservative Irish ethos.
Integrated Education is a brilliant idea. Unfortunately it's being implemented by people used to segregation and getting their own way, who then see everything as a concession.

If I had my way the state sector would be the integrated sector. Anybody wanting to run catholic schools should fund it out of the church coffers, not exchequer funds. People shouldn't be paying tithes in this day and age.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: thebuzz on December 16, 2019, 11:47:56 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 11:10:12 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on December 16, 2019, 11:01:57 PM
Quote from: trailer on December 16, 2019, 10:05:41 PM
f**k it. Lets just keep on going the way we always have then ram unification down everyones throats in a take it or leave it 50+1 vote. It'll be grand.

In other words, lets ram it down people's throat by sticking to the very guidelines set out in the GFA that those same people voted overwhelmingly in favour of?

So what % do you suggest it should be for a vote in favour of reunification to be valid? Or to put that another way, exactly how much more valuable is a unionist's vote be over a nationalist's vote, in your eyes?

It's not a question of being "valid." It's a question of achieving unity when there's a good consensus for it and when it's not such a bitterly divisive issue. It's about reunification happening peacefully and with less likelihood of a violent loyalist backlash or even civil war. But you try explaining that to the "integrated education will never happen so we should just keep them separate" crowd.

Everyone has been talking about economics being the main issue. All I can see is a bunch of loyalist nutters who would never accept it even if it was 70 - 30 in favour of a UI. Moderate loyalists will never be the problem.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on December 17, 2019, 12:03:05 AM
Quote from: Walter Cronc on December 16, 2019, 10:57:02 PM
Another point, since the results we have clowns in SF some how attacking both Alliance and SDLP. Just accept you got your arses handed to you in Foyle and quit the slabbering on social media.

There's a reason SF vote was down in most constituencies, they take us for granted and have done sweet FA in working class areas.

I think one of the key differences this time, was that people have finally woken up to them. Health, jobs, education, economy in the gutter and all they're doing is ranting about a border poll. Useless shower of bastards.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: dec on December 17, 2019, 12:24:15 AM
Quote from: thebuzz on December 16, 2019, 11:47:56 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 11:10:12 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on December 16, 2019, 11:01:57 PM
Quote from: trailer on December 16, 2019, 10:05:41 PM
f**k it. Lets just keep on going the way we always have then ram unification down everyones throats in a take it or leave it 50+1 vote. It'll be grand.

In other words, lets ram it down people's throat by sticking to the very guidelines set out in the GFA that those same people voted overwhelmingly in favour of?

So what % do you suggest it should be for a vote in favour of reunification to be valid? Or to put that another way, exactly how much more valuable is a unionist's vote be over a nationalist's vote, in your eyes?

It's not a question of being "valid." It's a question of achieving unity when there's a good consensus for it and when it's not such a bitterly divisive issue. It's about reunification happening peacefully and with less likelihood of a violent loyalist backlash or even civil war. But you try explaining that to the "integrated education will never happen so we should just keep them separate" crowd.

Everyone has been talking about economics being the main issue. All I can see is a bunch of loyalist nutters who would never accept it even if it was 70 - 30 in favour of a UI. Moderate loyalists will never be the problem.

The Irish Free State/Republic of Ireland was an economic basket-case for a good chunk of it's history. So much so that there was huge emigration and the population didn't recover to it's 1922 level until the 70s. Yet in all that time there was never any push to rejoin the UK. Economics won't override identity/nationality etc.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 17, 2019, 08:36:06 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 11:07:37 PM
Only in NI do people think it's physically impossible for catholics and protestants to be given a decent quality education in the same school. This is the kind of thing I have a hard time explaining to my wife. Being American, she sees everyone in NI as white and doesn't know what the difference is between a catholic and a protestant. When she went to school religion didn't get a look in. Schools in California are civic institutions that reflect the diversity of society, and religion is something you do on your own time. What a concept.

Religious affiliation has never been linked to oppression and war and hunger in USA. How would she understand with the greatest respect without a good knowledge of our history, but I can see how it must look mad for people from outside this island
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trueblue1234 on December 17, 2019, 08:49:53 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 11:10:12 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on December 16, 2019, 11:01:57 PM
Quote from: trailer on December 16, 2019, 10:05:41 PM
f**k it. Lets just keep on going the way we always have then ram unification down everyones throats in a take it or leave it 50+1 vote. It'll be grand.

In other words, lets ram it down people's throat by sticking to the very guidelines set out in the GFA that those same people voted overwhelmingly in favour of?

So what % do you suggest it should be for a vote in favour of reunification to be valid? Or to put that another way, exactly how much more valuable is a unionist's vote be over a nationalist's vote, in your eyes?

It's not a question of being "valid." It's a question of achieving unity when there's a good consensus for it and when it's not such a bitterly divisive issue. It's about reunification happening peacefully and with less likelihood of a violent loyalist backlash or even civil war. But you try explaining that to the "integrated education will never happen so we should just keep them separate" crowd.

So if there was a 55-45 majority you think the status quo should be kept? Let's say it stays at that level for 20 years, do we continue to ignore the democratic change? As someone else alluded to earlier. It's a small % that will cause the backlash, and that will happen whether it's 80% 20%. It will never be accepted by them. I complete agree that we should work towards bringing as high a % as possible along with the process but I don't believe that democracy should be held back by a violent minority. 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Walter Cronc on December 17, 2019, 09:05:35 AM
Lads you are talking like some Monday we'll wake up to green post boxes. That won't happen. It'll be a phased transition which will start when we economically become one island in the next year or so. Surely then a phased federated all Ireland with two states is the sensible way to go to begin with. During this time our unionist neighbors will see the benefits.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 17, 2019, 09:28:54 AM
There are 2 main dynamics at play. Demographics are reducing the Unionist share of population. English nationalism is destroying Britishness
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: tbrick18 on December 17, 2019, 09:52:10 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 16, 2019, 09:16:17 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on December 16, 2019, 09:07:41 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 16, 2019, 06:55:11 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 16, 2019, 06:39:57 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 05:44:41 PM
A border poll is far down the list of things that need to happen between now an Irish reunification. Higher on the list is the desegregation of society in the north along religious lines, but I don't see a whole lot of progress being made on that front. SF have had the education portfolio for years and were able to scrap the grammar school system over the objections of recalcitrant people who wanted to retain selection, but don't seem to have the same eagerness for scrapping the unacceptable practice of keeping school kids segregated by religion until they go to the tech or go to Uni.

In fact SF's business model seems to be "complain about how unfairly treated we are by the evil Brits and that should keep the votes coming in." They'll probably spend the next decade banging on about why we need a border poll now and how unreasonable the Brits are for not providing one.
Ahh the magic bullet of integrated education.
Will these schools teach Irish history, Gaelige, do gaelic games?

Yes

No.
Integrated education is a fantastic idea, however, it is not universally implemented in the same way.
In my experience of it, there was no irish history, Irish language or gaelic games. However, there were Ulster Scotts classes, Badminton, soccer and table tennis.
In a school primarily staffed by Catholic Staff, with Protestant management. A primarily catholic intake at that time - and kids not getting places as there were too many catholics. Quite a few Protestant families complaining about the lack of Gaelic/Irish as they wanted there kids to experience something they felt they couldn't get elsewhere and also quite a few protestant families complaining when a teacher wore a gaelic top to a sponsored walk fund raiser.
The quality of education was also not what either the state or catholic schools (primary schools) as hardly anyone sat or had the ability to sit the transfer test.
No-one was happy with the level of integration, or lack thereof, in the integrated school I have experience of.

From what I have seen of it, Integrated education will only work if the management, staff and families who send their kids to these schools live and breath and integrated ethos. Staff, IMO, integrated schools are only there as they couldn't get a job in a school from their respective tradition. In many cases, kids in the schools are the same, though, there is a sizeable number of mixed marriages with kids in integrated schools.

I know I've gone on a bit of a rant there on Integrated Education, but it galls me to hear so much spouted about the virtues of Integrated Education when the realities don't really live up to the expectations.

My experience would be the polar opposite.

What we need to do is remove segregated education and simply have education.

I wouldn't dispute that at all, as I know others who have had your experience.
I'm specifically talking about the primary sector here. To give some more background, my wife is on staff in this specific school, my kids attended the school (until we removed them, as did about 8 other families for similar reasons), and I was on the board of governors.
I've seen first hand what was going on and how non-integrated it actually was.
I appreciate this may be an isolated case, but I have had similar stories from others in different schools.

In an ideal world, yes it would just be education. Not Catholic, State, Integrated, Irish....just education. Kids don't need to be burdened with the prejudices of the past IMO. We completely bought into the Integrated Ethos, but were unfortunately feel completely duped by the experience we had.

The point I'm trying to make about Integrated education is that it's not the magic solution it's sometimes touted as. Mainly because the prejudices of staff and parents are coming with them into that integrated setting. In my opinion, there is a sizeable majority of people here not ready or willing to be "integrated", certainly in terms of education. Until that changes, everything is lip service.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on December 17, 2019, 09:56:04 AM
SF are the largest Nationalist/Republican party, but have they shown any maturity or made any sensible discussion on how a UI is achievable, other than shouting "border poll" at every opportunity?

As recent election results show, their behaviour would struggle to convince many nationalists of a UI, never mind unionists.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: tbrick18 on December 17, 2019, 09:56:15 AM
Quote from: michaelg on December 16, 2019, 09:23:48 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on December 16, 2019, 09:07:41 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 16, 2019, 06:55:11 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 16, 2019, 06:39:57 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 05:44:41 PM
A border poll is far down the list of things that need to happen between now an Irish reunification. Higher on the list is the desegregation of society in the north along religious lines, but I don't see a whole lot of progress being made on that front. SF have had the education portfolio for years and were able to scrap the grammar school system over the objections of recalcitrant people who wanted to retain selection, but don't seem to have the same eagerness for scrapping the unacceptable practice of keeping school kids segregated by religion until they go to the tech or go to Uni.

In fact SF's business model seems to be "complain about how unfairly treated we are by the evil Brits and that should keep the votes coming in." They'll probably spend the next decade banging on about why we need a border poll now and how unreasonable the Brits are for not providing one.
Ahh the magic bullet of integrated education.
Will these schools teach Irish history, Gaelige, do gaelic games?

Yes

No.
Integrated education is a fantastic idea, however, it is not universally implemented in the same way.
In my experience of it, there was no irish history, Irish language or gaelic games. However, there were Ulster Scotts classes, Badminton, soccer and table tennis.
In a school primarily staffed by Catholic Staff, with Protestant management. A primarily catholic intake at that time - and kids not getting places as there were too many catholics. Quite a few Protestant families complaining about the lack of Gaelic/Irish as they wanted there kids to experience something they felt they couldn't get elsewhere and also quite a few protestant families complaining when a teacher wore a gaelic top to a sponsored walk fund raiser.
The quality of education was also not what either the state or catholic schools (primary schools) as hardly anyone sat or had the ability to sit the transfer test.
No-one was happy with the level of integration, or lack thereof, in the integrated school I have experience of.

From what I have seen of it, Integrated education will only work if the management, staff and families who send their kids to these schools live and breath and integrated ethos. Staff, IMO, integrated schools are only there as they couldn't get a job in a school from their respective tradition. In many cases, kids in the schools are the same, though, there is a sizeable number of mixed marriages with kids in integrated schools.

I know I've gone on a bit of a rant there on Integrated Education, but it galls me to hear so much spouted about the virtues of Integrated Education when the realities don't really live up to the expectations.
Can't believe you could get so irked about a  spot of badmington and table tennis!  Surely the main virtue of integrated is that young people are being educated together from an early age, building life long friendships and realising that the folk from the other "community" don't have two heads.

;D
The point that I was trying to make with the sport, was that it seemed to be any sport but Gaelic games.
I had once asked the question about why they hadn't entered the Cumann na mBunscol, to be told by the principal they didn't know anything about it. So I contacted the offices of Comann na mBunscol for info, only to be told the school was registered by never attended. On further investigation, they had actually go funding for Gaelic Games coaching, but used it for "other" activities.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on December 17, 2019, 10:25:36 AM
Quote from: seafoid on December 17, 2019, 09:28:54 AM
English nationalism is destroying Britishness
Only in the heads of those who hate Britishness.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: TheOptimist on December 17, 2019, 10:32:10 AM
Quote from: tbrick18 on December 17, 2019, 09:56:15 AM
Quote from: michaelg on December 16, 2019, 09:23:48 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on December 16, 2019, 09:07:41 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 16, 2019, 06:55:11 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 16, 2019, 06:39:57 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 05:44:41 PM
A border poll is far down the list of things that need to happen between now an Irish reunification. Higher on the list is the desegregation of society in the north along religious lines, but I don't see a whole lot of progress being made on that front. SF have had the education portfolio for years and were able to scrap the grammar school system over the objections of recalcitrant people who wanted to retain selection, but don't seem to have the same eagerness for scrapping the unacceptable practice of keeping school kids segregated by religion until they go to the tech or go to Uni.

In fact SF's business model seems to be "complain about how unfairly treated we are by the evil Brits and that should keep the votes coming in." They'll probably spend the next decade banging on about why we need a border poll now and how unreasonable the Brits are for not providing one.
Ahh the magic bullet of integrated education.
Will these schools teach Irish history, Gaelige, do gaelic games?

Yes

No.
Integrated education is a fantastic idea, however, it is not universally implemented in the same way.
In my experience of it, there was no irish history, Irish language or gaelic games. However, there were Ulster Scotts classes, Badminton, soccer and table tennis.
In a school primarily staffed by Catholic Staff, with Protestant management. A primarily catholic intake at that time - and kids not getting places as there were too many catholics. Quite a few Protestant families complaining about the lack of Gaelic/Irish as they wanted there kids to experience something they felt they couldn't get elsewhere and also quite a few protestant families complaining when a teacher wore a gaelic top to a sponsored walk fund raiser.
The quality of education was also not what either the state or catholic schools (primary schools) as hardly anyone sat or had the ability to sit the transfer test.
No-one was happy with the level of integration, or lack thereof, in the integrated school I have experience of.

From what I have seen of it, Integrated education will only work if the management, staff and families who send their kids to these schools live and breath and integrated ethos. Staff, IMO, integrated schools are only there as they couldn't get a job in a school from their respective tradition. In many cases, kids in the schools are the same, though, there is a sizeable number of mixed marriages with kids in integrated schools.

I know I've gone on a bit of a rant there on Integrated Education, but it galls me to hear so much spouted about the virtues of Integrated Education when the realities don't really live up to the expectations.
Can't believe you could get so irked about a  spot of badmington and table tennis!  Surely the main virtue of integrated is that young people are being educated together from an early age, building life long friendships and realising that the folk from the other "community" don't have two heads.

;D
The point that I was trying to make with the sport, was that it seemed to be any sport but Gaelic games.
I had once asked the question about why they hadn't entered the Cumann na mBunscol, to be told by the principal they didn't know anything about it. So I contacted the offices of Comann na mBunscol for info, only to be told the school was registered by never attended. On further investigation, they had actually go funding for Gaelic Games coaching, but used it for "other" activities.

My two go to integrated and my experience to date has not been this. In fact their U6 coach at the club teaches at the school and runs the school GAA activities.

The biggest surprise I had is that football tops such as Republic or Northern Ireland are actually encouraged. The ethos is about accepting differences and not hiding or being ashamed of them. They are learning more about Diversity than they would at a Catholic school.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on December 17, 2019, 11:13:34 AM
Are they encouraged to wear County or GAA Club jerseys though?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 17, 2019, 11:22:21 AM
CCMS for me all day.

And I think people vote with their feet certainly here in Derry in that respect. Great schools, nothing to be learnt from integrated schools in Derry at the minute anyhow. Oakgrove poor school. Sorry for being blunt but there would be massive resistance to integrated schools here, and even though religion is in decline, parents still want that ethos certainly within the school system.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on December 17, 2019, 11:27:19 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on December 16, 2019, 11:01:57 PM
Quote from: trailer on December 16, 2019, 10:05:41 PM
f**k it. Lets just keep on going the way we always have then ram unification down everyones throats in a take it or leave it 50+1 vote. It'll be grand.

In other words, lets ram it down people's throat by sticking to the very guidelines set out in the GFA that those same people voted overwhelmingly in favour of?

So what % do you suggest it should be for a vote in favour of reunification to be valid? Or to put that another way, exactly how much more valuable is a unionist's vote be over a nationalist's vote, in your eyes?

It's about uniting a people not a land. Come back to me when you wake up to that realisation.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: TheOptimist on December 17, 2019, 11:35:28 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 17, 2019, 11:13:34 AM
Are they encouraged to wear County or GAA Club jerseys though?

The point was made regarding the soccer jerseys but it was more a general point, so yes, there would be no issues.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Franko on December 17, 2019, 11:43:23 AM
Quote from: michaelg on December 16, 2019, 09:23:48 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on December 16, 2019, 09:07:41 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 16, 2019, 06:55:11 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 16, 2019, 06:39:57 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 05:44:41 PM
A border poll is far down the list of things that need to happen between now an Irish reunification. Higher on the list is the desegregation of society in the north along religious lines, but I don't see a whole lot of progress being made on that front. SF have had the education portfolio for years and were able to scrap the grammar school system over the objections of recalcitrant people who wanted to retain selection, but don't seem to have the same eagerness for scrapping the unacceptable practice of keeping school kids segregated by religion until they go to the tech or go to Uni.

In fact SF's business model seems to be "complain about how unfairly treated we are by the evil Brits and that should keep the votes coming in." They'll probably spend the next decade banging on about why we need a border poll now and how unreasonable the Brits are for not providing one.
Ahh the magic bullet of integrated education.
Will these schools teach Irish history, Gaelige, do gaelic games?

Yes

No.
Integrated education is a fantastic idea, however, it is not universally implemented in the same way.
In my experience of it, there was no irish history, Irish language or gaelic games. However, there were Ulster Scotts classes, Badminton, soccer and table tennis.
In a school primarily staffed by Catholic Staff, with Protestant management. A primarily catholic intake at that time - and kids not getting places as there were too many catholics. Quite a few Protestant families complaining about the lack of Gaelic/Irish as they wanted there kids to experience something they felt they couldn't get elsewhere and also quite a few protestant families complaining when a teacher wore a gaelic top to a sponsored walk fund raiser.
The quality of education was also not what either the state or catholic schools (primary schools) as hardly anyone sat or had the ability to sit the transfer test.
No-one was happy with the level of integration, or lack thereof, in the integrated school I have experience of.

From what I have seen of it, Integrated education will only work if the management, staff and families who send their kids to these schools live and breath and integrated ethos. Staff, IMO, integrated schools are only there as they couldn't get a job in a school from their respective tradition. In many cases, kids in the schools are the same, though, there is a sizeable number of mixed marriages with kids in integrated schools.

I know I've gone on a bit of a rant there on Integrated Education, but it galls me to hear so much spouted about the virtues of Integrated Education when the realities don't really live up to the expectations.
Can't believe you could get so irked about a  spot of badmington and table tennis!  Surely the main virtue of integrated is that young people are being educated together from an early age, building life long friendships and realising that the folk from the other "community" don't have two heads.

Good point.  Clearly he has an issue with Badminton and Table Tennis.

In fact, you know what would be a good idea.  We should ignore everything else he has said and focus on his irrational hatred for these sports.

::)
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Keyser soze on December 17, 2019, 11:51:52 AM
My knowledge of Integrated school is based on one school in Northwest. There is no place for GAA in their curriculum, it is a state school in all but name, I can only assume their teaching of history and culture are the same.

A teacher I know well felt unwelcome in the school after trying to introduce GAA in the school and left as a direct result of the resistance encountered from other staff and from parents. I am not saying there was physical intimidation but there was such a vitriolic reaction to the suggestion that the person felt so uncomfortable that they sought another position.

Integrated education is seen as a more lucrative funding stream to replace the diminishing numbers attending state schools, it has got zero to do with taking a balanced approach to learning about Irishness, the ethos is entirely British.

I accept that in other areas and other schools there may be a more even handed approach. 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: HiMucker on December 17, 2019, 11:53:23 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 17, 2019, 11:22:21 AM
CCMS for me all day.

And I think people vote with their feet certainly here in Derry in that respect. Great schools, nothing to be learnt from integrated schools in Derry at the minute anyhow. Oakgrove poor school. Sorry for being blunt but there would be massive resistance to integrated schools here, and even though religion is in decline, parents still want that ethos certainly within the school system.
Im from Derry and I dont think that is entirely accurate. My kids go to an Irish school and majority of parents I speak to either don't want or dont care if religion is part of their education. Sure mass attendances would tell you the vast majority are disengaged when it comes to religion.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: HiMucker on December 17, 2019, 12:00:02 PM
Integrated education in its current guise is certainly not the silver bullet. Im not sure who even thinks it is? But if we are to live in a shared society then I think there needs to be a lot of work done around integration, and that integration needs to start with education and education reform. It might not make much difference initially in somewhere like the city side of Derry, but christ the first protestants I ever spoke to in any capacity was when I went to Uni. Thats the same case for a lot of friends and family. That is madness.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on December 17, 2019, 12:04:07 PM
I think integrated housing needs added to that list and we can see how well that's going in certain areas of Belfast.

No point integrating education and the kids go back to their ghetto's at the end of the day!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: HiMucker on December 17, 2019, 12:14:07 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on December 17, 2019, 12:04:07 PM
I think integrated housing needs added to that list and we can see how well that's going in certain areas of Belfast.

No point integrating education and the kids go back to their ghetto's at the end of the day!
Thats a fair point. But which do you think is easier to do? For example loads of new houses being built in the affluent Culmore rd area of Derry. How many protestant families would be encouraged to move there when their isn't a school for their kids to go to? Its a bit of chicken and egg.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Keyser soze on December 17, 2019, 12:14:58 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on December 17, 2019, 12:04:07 PM
I think integrated housing needs added to that list and we can see how well that's going in certain areas of Belfast.

No point integrating education and the kids go back to their ghetto's at the end of the day!

Integrated housing projects so far seem to work okay as long as the catholics keep their head down when the UVF flags are erected so in that respect it is quite similar to Integrated Education.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on December 17, 2019, 12:26:05 PM
Wasn't sure were to put this. Eamonn is never far away...

https://eamonnmallie.com/2019/12/the-unacceptable-faces-of-the-dup-and-sinn-fein-by-eamonn-mallie/ (https://eamonnmallie.com/2019/12/the-unacceptable-faces-of-the-dup-and-sinn-fein-by-eamonn-mallie/)
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: TheOptimist on December 17, 2019, 12:37:52 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on December 17, 2019, 12:04:07 PM
I think integrated housing needs added to that list and we can see how well that's going in certain areas of Belfast.

No point integrating education and the kids go back to their ghetto's at the end of the day!

I genuinely think they should go in some night and tear down the "peace walls" in Belfast. The only thing they are good for is division.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on December 17, 2019, 12:39:33 PM
Quote from: TheOptimist on December 17, 2019, 12:37:52 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on December 17, 2019, 12:04:07 PM
I think integrated housing needs added to that list and we can see how well that's going in certain areas of Belfast.

No point integrating education and the kids go back to their ghetto's at the end of the day!

I genuinely think they should go in some night and tear down the "peace walls" in Belfast. The only thing they are good for is division.

Do you live beside one?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 17, 2019, 01:01:30 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on December 17, 2019, 11:53:23 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 17, 2019, 11:22:21 AM
CCMS for me all day.

And I think people vote with their feet certainly here in Derry in that respect. Great schools, nothing to be learnt from integrated schools in Derry at the minute anyhow. Oakgrove poor school. Sorry for being blunt but there would be massive resistance to integrated schools here, and even though religion is in decline, parents still want that ethos certainly within the school system.
Im from Derry and I dont think that is entirely accurate. My kids go to an Irish school and majority of parents I speak to either don't want or dont care if religion is part of their education. Sure mass attendances would tell you the vast majority are disengaged when it comes to religion.

My point is really that there are very few primary or secondary schools which offer the same standard of education as CCMS. The Irish language sector in Derry is different and is a bit of a mess. My children also attend. The 2 non CCMS Irish schools are not integrated in the true sense of the word and I know of only 1 child from mixed background in the 3 schools. The only reason they were set up as integrated schools  was to give control to SF. They talk about an irish language act(most cant speak a word) yet we have 3 schools in huts(one since 1983), as SF facilitated a petty kingdom building exercise. Id love to see the uproar if we told the parents at Gaelscoil Éadoin Mhóir or Gaelscoil na Daróige that the schools would not facilitate first communion and confirmation preparation, in fact I think GEM tried this a few years back and lets say it was like a lead balloon being dropped
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: tbrick18 on December 17, 2019, 02:23:01 PM
Quote from: TheOptimist on December 17, 2019, 10:32:10 AM
Quote from: tbrick18 on December 17, 2019, 09:56:15 AM
Quote from: michaelg on December 16, 2019, 09:23:48 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on December 16, 2019, 09:07:41 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 16, 2019, 06:55:11 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 16, 2019, 06:39:57 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 05:44:41 PM
A border poll is far down the list of things that need to happen between now an Irish reunification. Higher on the list is the desegregation of society in the north along religious lines, but I don't see a whole lot of progress being made on that front. SF have had the education portfolio for years and were able to scrap the grammar school system over the objections of recalcitrant people who wanted to retain selection, but don't seem to have the same eagerness for scrapping the unacceptable practice of keeping school kids segregated by religion until they go to the tech or go to Uni.

In fact SF's business model seems to be "complain about how unfairly treated we are by the evil Brits and that should keep the votes coming in." They'll probably spend the next decade banging on about why we need a border poll now and how unreasonable the Brits are for not providing one.
Ahh the magic bullet of integrated education.
Will these schools teach Irish history, Gaelige, do gaelic games?

Yes

No.
Integrated education is a fantastic idea, however, it is not universally implemented in the same way.
In my experience of it, there was no irish history, Irish language or gaelic games. However, there were Ulster Scotts classes, Badminton, soccer and table tennis.
In a school primarily staffed by Catholic Staff, with Protestant management. A primarily catholic intake at that time - and kids not getting places as there were too many catholics. Quite a few Protestant families complaining about the lack of Gaelic/Irish as they wanted there kids to experience something they felt they couldn't get elsewhere and also quite a few protestant families complaining when a teacher wore a gaelic top to a sponsored walk fund raiser.
The quality of education was also not what either the state or catholic schools (primary schools) as hardly anyone sat or had the ability to sit the transfer test.
No-one was happy with the level of integration, or lack thereof, in the integrated school I have experience of.

From what I have seen of it, Integrated education will only work if the management, staff and families who send their kids to these schools live and breath and integrated ethos. Staff, IMO, integrated schools are only there as they couldn't get a job in a school from their respective tradition. In many cases, kids in the schools are the same, though, there is a sizeable number of mixed marriages with kids in integrated schools.

I know I've gone on a bit of a rant there on Integrated Education, but it galls me to hear so much spouted about the virtues of Integrated Education when the realities don't really live up to the expectations.
Can't believe you could get so irked about a  spot of badmington and table tennis!  Surely the main virtue of integrated is that young people are being educated together from an early age, building life long friendships and realising that the folk from the other "community" don't have two heads.

;D
The point that I was trying to make with the sport, was that it seemed to be any sport but Gaelic games.
I had once asked the question about why they hadn't entered the Cumann na mBunscol, to be told by the principal they didn't know anything about it. So I contacted the offices of Comann na mBunscol for info, only to be told the school was registered by never attended. On further investigation, they had actually go funding for Gaelic Games coaching, but used it for "other" activities.

My two go to integrated and my experience to date has not been this. In fact their U6 coach at the club teaches at the school and runs the school GAA activities.

The biggest surprise I had is that football tops such as Republic or Northern Ireland are actually encouraged. The ethos is about accepting differences and not hiding or being ashamed of them. They are learning more about Diversity than they would at a Catholic school.

That's the way it should be, but it also demonstrates that staff are key to it being successful.
When we were first considering Primary schools I was actually against sending mine to the integrated, but went to an open night were the Principle at the time gave a speech. He said that you expect to be asked for permission to allow your child to learn about Irish, the Queen, the 12th, St. Patrick or Gaelic...or if you have issues with things like Gaelic tops or poppies, then you should not send your child to the school. He said everyone would learn about everything....and I was sold on it.
However, as tends to happen, staff and management change and so did the approach to integration. Perhaps its the exception and not the norm.

I think we need in integrated education thread. :)
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: tbrick18 on December 17, 2019, 02:25:58 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 17, 2019, 11:22:21 AM
CCMS for me all day.

And I think people vote with their feet certainly here in Derry in that respect. Great schools, nothing to be learnt from integrated schools in Derry at the minute anyhow. Oakgrove poor school. Sorry for being blunt but there would be massive resistance to integrated schools here, and even though religion is in decline, parents still want that ethos certainly within the school system.

I think you've hit the nail on the head here. The quality of education in a CCMS school is way beyond what I have experienced in an integrated school.
And indeed, in quite a few places in our area way beyond what is happening in the state schools (at least based on grammar school numbers in the area).
I think these days, parents are more likely to choose a school on the quality of education.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on December 17, 2019, 04:32:34 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on December 17, 2019, 08:49:53 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 11:10:12 PM
Quote from: Snapchap on December 16, 2019, 11:01:57 PM
Quote from: trailer on December 16, 2019, 10:05:41 PM
f**k it. Lets just keep on going the way we always have then ram unification down everyones throats in a take it or leave it 50+1 vote. It'll be grand.

In other words, lets ram it down people's throat by sticking to the very guidelines set out in the GFA that those same people voted overwhelmingly in favour of?

So what % do you suggest it should be for a vote in favour of reunification to be valid? Or to put that another way, exactly how much more valuable is a unionist's vote be over a nationalist's vote, in your eyes?

It's not a question of being "valid." It's a question of achieving unity when there's a good consensus for it and when it's not such a bitterly divisive issue. It's about reunification happening peacefully and with less likelihood of a violent loyalist backlash or even civil war. But you try explaining that to the "integrated education will never happen so we should just keep them separate" crowd.

So if there was a 55-45 majority you think the status quo should be kept? Let's say it stays at that level for 20 years, do we continue to ignore the democratic change? As someone else alluded to earlier. It's a small % that will cause the backlash, and that will happen whether it's 80% 20%. It will never be accepted by them. I complete agree that we should work towards bringing as high a % as possible along with the process but I don't believe that democracy should be held back by a violent minority.

My preferred solution would be to hold off on holding a referendum until we're sure we can get a decent percentage, say 60%, in favour. If we get to that point then the size of the loyalist backlash would be akin to the scale of the dissident republican threat at the minute, i.e. small enough that it can be contained. But holding a border poll right now when the result is on a knife-edge is just ridiculous.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on December 17, 2019, 04:34:04 PM
Quote from: Walter Cronc on December 17, 2019, 09:05:35 AM
Lads you are talking like some Monday we'll wake up to green post boxes. That won't happen. It'll be a phased transition which will start when we economically become one island in the next year or so. Surely then a phased federated all Ireland with two states is the sensible way to go to begin with. During this time our unionist neighbors will see the benefits.

I agree. When Hong Kong and Macau were handed back to China by Britain and Portugal they retained the status of Special Administrative Regions. It made for a smooth transition. There's a lesson there.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on December 17, 2019, 04:46:48 PM
My response to the old "integrated education is not a panacea" trope is as follows:

Segregated education is not a panacea either.

If integrated schools are providing lower quality education then that's an argument for giving them more funding so they can attract better management and better teachers. The work they do is too important to be relegated to the bottom of the priority list. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't CCMS schools funded partly by the state? If that's the case then it represents a large transfer of public money to a private institution to further its private goals of brainwashing children into a particular belief system, as well as deepening divisions. Utter madness.

You can't take down the peace walls until kids go to school together.

Another old cop-out I used to hear all the time was that CCMS schools "teach children to respect people of different faiths." What a load of cobblers. The ones lobbing petrol bombs in Kilwilkee over the years all went to CCMS schools. Respect for people is not something you learn in lessons from a book. You learn it between lessons. In the corridors. In the playground. Waiting for the school bus. On the school bus. In the cafeteria. You build relationships and grow up together with people from diverse backgrounds, that's where you learn the most, not by listening to some nun droning on for half an hour about how we should be nice to them "up to no good" protestants.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: JoG2 on December 17, 2019, 04:49:37 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on December 17, 2019, 12:14:07 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on December 17, 2019, 12:04:07 PM
I think integrated housing needs added to that list and we can see how well that's going in certain areas of Belfast.

No point integrating education and the kids go back to their ghetto's at the end of the day!
Thats a fair point. But which do you think is easier to do? For example loads of new houses being built in the affluent Culmore rd area of Derry. How many protestant families would be encouraged to move there when their isn't a school for their kids to go to? Its a bit of chicken and egg.

Culmore PS?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: michaelg on December 17, 2019, 04:59:01 PM
Quote from: Franko on December 17, 2019, 11:43:23 AM
Quote from: michaelg on December 16, 2019, 09:23:48 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on December 16, 2019, 09:07:41 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 16, 2019, 06:55:11 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 16, 2019, 06:39:57 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 05:44:41 PM
A border poll is far down the list of things that need to happen between now an Irish reunification. Higher on the list is the desegregation of society in the north along religious lines, but I don't see a whole lot of progress being made on that front. SF have had the education portfolio for years and were able to scrap the grammar school system over the objections of recalcitrant people who wanted to retain selection, but don't seem to have the same eagerness for scrapping the unacceptable practice of keeping school kids segregated by religion until they go to the tech or go to Uni.

In fact SF's business model seems to be "complain about how unfairly treated we are by the evil Brits and that should keep the votes coming in." They'll probably spend the next decade banging on about why we need a border poll now and how unreasonable the Brits are for not providing one.
Ahh the magic bullet of integrated education.
Will these schools teach Irish history, Gaelige, do gaelic games?

Yes

No.
Integrated education is a fantastic idea, however, it is not universally implemented in the same way.
In my experience of it, there was no irish history, Irish language or gaelic games. However, there were Ulster Scotts classes, Badminton, soccer and table tennis.
In a school primarily staffed by Catholic Staff, with Protestant management. A primarily catholic intake at that time - and kids not getting places as there were too many catholics. Quite a few Protestant families complaining about the lack of Gaelic/Irish as they wanted there kids to experience something they felt they couldn't get elsewhere and also quite a few protestant families complaining when a teacher wore a gaelic top to a sponsored walk fund raiser.
The quality of education was also not what either the state or catholic schools (primary schools) as hardly anyone sat or had the ability to sit the transfer test.
No-one was happy with the level of integration, or lack thereof, in the integrated school I have experience of.

From what I have seen of it, Integrated education will only work if the management, staff and families who send their kids to these schools live and breath and integrated ethos. Staff, IMO, integrated schools are only there as they couldn't get a job in a school from their respective tradition. In many cases, kids in the schools are the same, though, there is a sizeable number of mixed marriages with kids in integrated schools.

I know I've gone on a bit of a rant there on Integrated Education, but it galls me to hear so much spouted about the virtues of Integrated Education when the realities don't really live up to the expectations.
Can't believe you could get so irked about a  spot of badmington and table tennis!  Surely the main virtue of integrated is that young people are being educated together from an early age, building life long friendships and realising that the folk from the other "community" don't have two heads.

Good point.  Clearly he has an issue with Badminton and Table Tennis.

In fact, you know what would be a good idea.  We should ignore everything else he has said and focus on his irrational hatred for these sports.

::)
The sports young people play at school is not the be all and end all.  I was merely pointing out that sharing a classroom from an early age with people from a different background is the main benefit of integrated education. 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: 6th sam on December 17, 2019, 05:55:19 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 17, 2019, 04:46:48 PM
My response to the old "integrated education is not a panacea" trope is as follows:

Segregated education is not a panacea either.

If integrated schools are providing lower quality education then that's an argument for giving them more funding so they can attract better management and better teachers. The work they do is too important to be relegated to the bottom of the priority list. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't CCMS schools funded partly by the state? If that's the case then it represents a large transfer of public money to a private institution to further its private goals of brainwashing children into a particular belief system, as well as deepening divisions. Utter madness.

You can't take down the peace walls until kids go to school together.

Another old cop-out I used to hear all the time was that CCMS schools "teach children to respect people of different faiths." What a load of cobblers. The ones lobbing petrol bombs in Kilwilkee over the years all went to CCMS schools. Respect for people is not something you learn in lessons from a book. You learn it between lessons. In the corridors. In the playground. Waiting for the school bus. On the school bus. In the cafeteria. You build relationships and grow up together with people from diverse backgrounds, that's where you learn the most, not by listening to some nun droning on for half an hour about how we should be nice to them "up to no good" protestants.

I hesitate to defend Catholic Education  for fear of insulting those who have suffered in the CCMS system (particularly related to cover-up of child abuse) . I recognise the negatives surrounding Catholic education but I have to say most of my family have been educated in CCMS schools and We never witnessed antagonism towards Protestants. And to be fair the only 'indoctrination " I witnessed was promoting charity, Christian values and positive social awareness.
Catholic's in the North were second class citizens in this state , yet in CCMS schools they were assured equal access to quality education , and Irish culture eg history, Gaelic  games, music , Irish language , which was not provided in state schools. Most CCMS schools are top notch educationally , and catholic schools in England are often over subscribed , probably as they promote positive human values including respect for others and work ethic . There are now very very few religious ( priests, brothers nuns) working in CCMS schools.
Cynics would say that Catholic education was unchallenged by the establishment for years but ever since these schools are dominating the league tables and state schools are under pressure educationally and enrolment wise, unionist politicians and others are all of a sudden making integrated education a cause celebre.
It's interesting that despite the decreasing influence of the Catholic Church , CCMS schools remain in high demand- I suspect because parents recognise the benefit of catholic education .

Having said all that I totally agree that strategically we should be moving towards a fully integrated education and housing system over the next 25 years.
Everybody should have access to the very best education system possible. Rather than denigrate Catholic education we should be exploring why it is so successful educationally and give everyone the opportunity to benefit from
The positive values and ethos which exists in these CCMS schools.
A few points of constructive criticism re "integrated" education:
1. If state schools were doing their job and providing equality then there would be no need for an integrated sector
2. Cynics would say that some state schools are moving towards integrated sector for survival as numbers drop
3. Anecdotally There is sectarian bullying within integrated schools
4. Many integrated schools do not promote gaa on an equal level, and don't place Irish culture on an equal footing with British culture or neutral culture
5. The grammar system often means that integrated schools will find it hard to compete with grammar schools educationally .
6. CCMS and Historical faith schools should be given the opportunity to contribute to a new model for education .
A potential long term solution :
A vision for education in the North ( and South ) going forward that promotes equal educational and cultural opportunity , educational And vocational excellence , true integration, positive social values. Review the current educational estate and only fund future school infrastructure development that meets the above ideals.
As well as promoting full social inclusion , it would be more economically efficient . The current education system and estate is not sustainable , and those that espouse integrated education as the panacea should recognise the weaknesses of the current state and integrated sectors as opposed to blaming everything on Catholic education
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: marty34 on December 17, 2019, 05:58:25 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on December 17, 2019, 11:53:23 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 17, 2019, 11:22:21 AM
CCMS for me all day.

And I think people vote with their feet certainly here in Derry in that respect. Great schools, nothing to be learnt from integrated schools in Derry at the minute anyhow. Oakgrove poor school. Sorry for being blunt but there would be massive resistance to integrated schools here, and even though religion is in decline, parents still want that ethos certainly within the school system.
Im from Derry and I dont think that is entirely accurate. My kids go to an Irish school and majority of parents I speak to either don't want or dont care if religion is part of their education. Sure mass attendances would tell you the vast majority are disengaged when it comes to religion.

CC has still too much control on schools in north - priest even sits in on job interviews!!!!

Church and schools should be seperate, like the way they are going in the south. 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 17, 2019, 06:24:36 PM
CCMS at grammar level out perform most schools, even some of the secondary schools have out performed some state grammar schools at GCSE level, but surely it's the work ethic of the principle, teachers, parents and pupils that achieve that?

I went to secondary and school left with zero education at 16 years old, as did 90% of that year (and most years tbh) group, all the kids went to CCMS primary schools then secondary. Why didn't the CCMS system not make us better students?

Simple, the work ethic was missing from all of the things I've mentioned.

Put your kids in the local school and base it on their standard, while we still have segregated housing estates you'll always have schools for that type, my kids have grown up in a mixed area, so go to the local school, they do well because they are encouraged to do well by everyone through school and home life. They aren't taught Irish ( I wasn't either at a CCMS) and played GAA briefly at the club but not bothered, again neither am I, as it's not a necessity in life or will it improve their day to day.

Looking to ram Gaelic culture down people's throats won't win hearts and minds, having it as an option and promoting to those that want to play is the way to go.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 17, 2019, 06:29:19 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 17, 2019, 05:58:25 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on December 17, 2019, 11:53:23 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 17, 2019, 11:22:21 AM
CCMS for me all day.

And I think people vote with their feet certainly here in Derry in that respect. Great schools, nothing to be learnt from integrated schools in Derry at the minute anyhow. Oakgrove poor school. Sorry for being blunt but there would be massive resistance to integrated schools here, and even though religion is in decline, parents still want that ethos certainly within the school system.
Im from Derry and I dont think that is entirely accurate. My kids go to an Irish school and majority of parents I speak to either don't want or dont care if religion is part of their education. Sure mass attendances would tell you the vast majority are disengaged when it comes to religion.

CC has still too much control on schools in north - priest even sits in on job interviews!!!!

Church and schools should be seperate, like the way they are going in the south.

Nothing wrong with that.. The evidence is there in the performance, and I don't even go to mass. The values and education levels received are just far too good to criticise them.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RedHand88 on December 17, 2019, 06:53:19 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 17, 2019, 06:29:19 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 17, 2019, 05:58:25 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on December 17, 2019, 11:53:23 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 17, 2019, 11:22:21 AM
CCMS for me all day.

And I think people vote with their feet certainly here in Derry in that respect. Great schools, nothing to be learnt from integrated schools in Derry at the minute anyhow. Oakgrove poor school. Sorry for being blunt but there would be massive resistance to integrated schools here, and even though religion is in decline, parents still want that ethos certainly within the school system.
Im from Derry and I dont think that is entirely accurate. My kids go to an Irish school and majority of parents I speak to either don't want or dont care if religion is part of their education. Sure mass attendances would tell you the vast majority are disengaged when it comes to religion.

CC has still too much control on schools in north - priest even sits in on job interviews!!!!

Church and schools should be seperate, like the way they are going in the south.

Nothing wrong with that.. The evidence is there in the performance, and I don't even go to mass. The values and education levels received are just far too good to criticise them.

+1
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on December 17, 2019, 06:56:53 PM
I can remember going to my local primary school & a new school building was going up.  I was being sent to school with a half a crown every Monday. Reason? The Unionist government only funded 90% of the building's costs. The so called Catholic Church was to raise the other 10%. That was inevitably passed on to the parents of the pupils attending at the time, for future generations to benefit. Church contributed feck all, as usual, but claimed all the glory.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: armaghniac on December 17, 2019, 07:49:04 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 17, 2019, 06:24:36 PM
CCMS at grammar level out perform most schools, even some of the secondary schools have out performed some state grammar schools at GCSE level, but surely it's the work ethic of the principle, teachers, parents and pupils that achieve that?

I went to secondary and school left with zero education at 16 years old, as did 90% of that year (and most years tbh) group, all the kids went to CCMS primary schools then secondary. Why didn't the CCMS system not make us better students?

Simple, the work ethic was missing from all of the things I've mentioned.

Put your kids in the local school and base it on their standard, while we still have segregated housing estates you'll always have schools for that type, my kids have grown up in a mixed area, so go to the local school, they do well because they are encouraged to do well by everyone through school and home life. They aren't taught Irish ( I wasn't either at a CCMS) and played GAA briefly at the club but not bothered, again neither am I, as it's not a necessity in life or will it improve their day to day.

Looking to ram Gaelic culture down people's throats won't win hearts and minds, having it as an option and promoting to those that want to play is the way to go.

It isn't a question of "ramming" anything, it is a question of not allowing prejudiced people to exclude Ireland's language or popular sports from schools.

However, the comment above about integrating teacher training seems the most obvious place to start.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: delgany on December 17, 2019, 08:46:44 PM
All grammar schools are classified as voluntary grammars. CCMS had no input into their management. All grammar schools are funded directly by DENI. Although CCMS  have input into non selective post primaries hence their attempts to merge the three post primary schools in Downpatrick.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on December 17, 2019, 09:13:56 PM
Education in NI is a mess. Duplication, selection, replication and of course intimidation. Poorly trained teachers punching time for a pension. Another department that needs completely overhauled.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 17, 2019, 09:42:02 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on December 17, 2019, 07:49:04 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 17, 2019, 06:24:36 PM
CCMS at grammar level out perform most schools, even some of the secondary schools have out performed some state grammar schools at GCSE level, but surely it's the work ethic of the principle, teachers, parents and pupils that achieve that?

I went to secondary and school left with zero education at 16 years old, as did 90% of that year (and most years tbh) group, all the kids went to CCMS primary schools then secondary. Why didn't the CCMS system not make us better students?

Simple, the work ethic was missing from all of the things I've mentioned.

Put your kids in the local school and base it on their standard, while we still have segregated housing estates you'll always have schools for that type, my kids have grown up in a mixed area, so go to the local school, they do well because they are encouraged to do well by everyone through school and home life. They aren't taught Irish ( I wasn't either at a CCMS) and played GAA briefly at the club but not bothered, again neither am I, as it's not a necessity in life or will it improve their day to day.

Looking to ram Gaelic culture down people's throats won't win hearts and minds, having it as an option and promoting to those that want to play is the way to go.

It isn't a question of "ramming" anything, it is a question of not allowing prejudiced people to exclude Ireland's language or popular sports from schools.

However, the comment above about integrating teacher training seems the most obvious place to start.

I didn't say that it shouldn't be available or not allowed, a school in Monkstown won't have Irish language or play GAA games as there is no interest in it. I went to a school that only played Gaelic games, when we would have had a decent soccer team, we weren't allowed to have a team
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: marty34 on December 17, 2019, 09:51:31 PM
Quote from: trailer on December 17, 2019, 09:13:56 PM
Education in NI is a mess. Duplication, selection, replication and of course intimidation. Poorly trained teachers punching time for a pension. Another department that needs completely overhauled.

Bit harsh!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 17, 2019, 10:27:42 PM
Quote from: trailer on December 17, 2019, 09:13:56 PM
Education in NI is a mess. Duplication, selection, replication and of course intimidation. Poorly trained teachers punching time for a pension. Another department that needs completely overhauled.

More like teachers getting punched by brats and the education board allowing f**k all to be done about it.

But yes, duplication is a waste.

Selection is grand. You have to streamline at some point - better to have a test where you make the gap between top and bottom within any individual school a bit smaller.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: tbrick18 on December 18, 2019, 10:29:53 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 17, 2019, 04:46:48 PM
My response to the old "integrated education is not a panacea" trope is as follows:

Segregated education is not a panacea either.

If integrated schools are providing lower quality education then that's an argument for giving them more funding so they can attract better management and better teachers. The work they do is too important to be relegated to the bottom of the priority list. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't CCMS schools funded partly by the state? If that's the case then it represents a large transfer of public money to a private institution to further its private goals of brainwashing children into a particular belief system, as well as deepening divisions. Utter madness.

You can't take down the peace walls until kids go to school together.

Another old cop-out I used to hear all the time was that CCMS schools "teach children to respect people of different faiths." What a load of cobblers. The ones lobbing petrol bombs in Kilwilkee over the years all went to CCMS schools. Respect for people is not something you learn in lessons from a book. You learn it between lessons. In the corridors. In the playground. Waiting for the school bus. On the school bus. In the cafeteria. You build relationships and grow up together with people from diverse backgrounds, that's where you learn the most, not by listening to some nun droning on for half an hour about how we should be nice to them "up to no good" protestants.

That's a very narrow view, in my opinion. Respect for people has to be taught at home, school shouldn't bear the full responsibility. You reference Kilwilkee in a way that almost suggests the CCMS schools were responsible, I'd argue that it was more likely the responsibility lay with the parents and families who were probably out doing the same thing.
Were I grew up was a rural area and I attended a CCMS school. In that area it was predominantly Catholic, but there was a sizeable Protestant minority. In my memory, I never once remember any issues between the two communities. Farming was the priority, not politics. Farmers of one persuasion regularly helped farmers of the other persuasion, and still do. In fact, a cross community group was set up and did a lot for the area.
Integrated education is an ideal. It cannot work without the same ethos being applied in the homes of staff and students.

CCMS do get funding from the education authority, but so does the Integrated sector through NICIE, and the Irish Medium schools through an organisation that I can't remember the name of.
In terms of setup, there may not be much difference between the two (though I'm no expert here).

In terms of attracting higher quality staff by giving them more funding....that's not possible. As all teachers and Principles here are civil servants and get paid on a scale. The same scale across all schools. The only way it can be increased is by government, and if its increased for one sector its increased to all.
One of the big issues I've seen in staffing in integrated schools is that once in the integrated system, it is very difficult for a teacher to gain employment in CCMS or state schools at a later point. Not impossible, but certainly there seems to be very few teachers moving out of the integrated sector.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: tbrick18 on December 18, 2019, 10:59:25 AM
On the topic of border polls, I think there will be one eventually. And I think the single biggest driver for it will not be Sinn Fein, I think it will be fallout from Brexit.
I can see NI really hitting rock bottom economically after Brexit and if that happens, our education sector, health sector, security and everything associated will all suffer, so we will all suffer on a daily basis. Costs will go up, but salaries will not.
In that scenario, regardless of political persuasion, if we were to have on offer a scenario where we could re-join Europe and have all the same benefits our neighbours in ROI have I think it would be very difficult to argue against.

In a simplified hypothetical view of what a UI would look like, replace the British government with ROI government and retain Stormont as a devolved government. The principles of the Good Friday Agreement are retained to give everyone their right to be British/Irish/Both. Would that much actually change in terms of governance for anyone? Nationalist or Unionist? I don't know what a UI would look like, but I think we could describe it in that simplified nature, then perhaps it would remove some of the fear that many Unionists and some Nationalists have.
In that world, I must admit, I would have a bit of a laugh to myself at seeing Gregory Campbell or wee Sammy travelling down to Dublin to take their seats in government.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Maiden1 on December 18, 2019, 11:12:30 AM
We went to an open day in Lagan College a few years ago as my oldest was doing the transfer test and we wanted to see our options on which school to send to.  Of all the schools we saw I thought Lagan was the best.  Firstly they have a grammar stream and a non grammar and had flexibility between the 2, so a child who is excelling in the non grammar stream after a couple of years could switch to the grammar and vise versa.  I think they might also have flexibility with pupils attending more advanced classes for subjects that they have an aptitude for.  They have a Gaelic team, Irish classes ..  In general I thought the atmosphere in the school was fantastic.  I believe it is 1 of the most over subscribed schools in NI.  I haven't practiced what I preached when it came to it, the Catholic Grammar schools are out performing other schools so it hard to look past that but it is kind of BS that most of NI are still splitting there kids into religions when sending them to school.

https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/belfast-news/lagan-integrated-colleges-popularity-sparks-15541036 (https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/belfast-news/lagan-integrated-colleges-popularity-sparks-15541036)
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Walter Cronc on December 18, 2019, 11:14:41 AM
Quote from: tbrick18 on December 18, 2019, 10:59:25 AM
On the topic of border polls, I think there will be one eventually. And I think the single biggest driver for it will not be Sinn Fein, I think it will be fallout from Brexit.
I can see NI really hitting rock bottom economically after Brexit and if that happens, our education sector, health sector, security and everything associated will all suffer, so we will all suffer on a daily basis. Costs will go up, but salaries will not.
In that scenario, regardless of political persuasion, if we were to have on offer a scenario where we could re-join Europe and have all the same benefits our neighbours in ROI have I think it would be very difficult to argue against.

In a simplified hypothetical view of what a UI would look like, replace the British government with ROI government and retain Stormont as a devolved government. The principles of the Good Friday Agreement are retained to give everyone their right to be British/Irish/Both. Would that much actually change in terms of governance for anyone? Nationalist or Unionist? I don't know what a UI would look like, but I think we could describe it in that simplified nature, then perhaps it would remove some of the fear that many Unionists and some Nationalists have.
In that world, I must admit, I would have a bit of a laugh to myself at seeing Gregory Campbell or wee Sammy travelling down to Dublin to take their seats in government.

Is this not what Boris' deal entails? Economic unity?!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on December 18, 2019, 11:33:31 AM

Quote from: tbrick18 on December 18, 2019, 10:59:25 AM
In that scenario, regardless of political persuasion, if we were to have on offer a scenario where we could re-join Europe and have all the same benefits our neighbours in ROI have I think it would be very difficult to argue against.

I'm amazed by this view that EU citizens enjoy huge benefits that are the envy of everyone else. The EU is essentially a bloated bureaucratic middleman that levies taxes on member states and, in the case of both Ireland and the UK, pays out substantially less than they pay in.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on December 18, 2019, 11:39:01 AM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 17, 2019, 10:27:42 PM
Quote from: trailer on December 17, 2019, 09:13:56 PM
Education in NI is a mess. Duplication, selection, replication and of course intimidation. Poorly trained teachers punching time for a pension. Another department that needs completely overhauled.

More like teachers getting punched by brats and the education board allowing f**k all to be done about it.

But yes, duplication is a waste.

Selection is grand. You have to streamline at some point - better to have a test where you make the gap between top and bottom within any individual school a bit smaller.

No it isn't. It is completely unfair to put that pressure on a 10 year old. And lets be straight, what the Grammar system is doing is taking the best and easiest taught students and to f**k with the rest. It's laziness on behalf of the school and the teachers. It's dividing society on basis of intelligence and in some cases money, when it is already divided here on religion.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 18, 2019, 11:39:15 AM
Quote from: five points on December 18, 2019, 11:33:31 AM

Quote from: tbrick18 on December 18, 2019, 10:59:25 AM
In that scenario, regardless of political persuasion, if we were to have on offer a scenario where we could re-join Europe and have all the same benefits our neighbours in ROI have I think it would be very difficult to argue against.

I'm amazed by this view that EU citizens enjoy huge benefits that are the envy of everyone else. The EU is essentially a bloated bureaucratic middleman that levies taxes on member states and, in the case of both Ireland and the UK, pays out substantially less than they pay in.

You do understand the benefits of the common market?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on December 18, 2019, 11:40:11 AM
Richer Countries helping poorer Countries.
We were happy to get loads of Cohesion and Structural funds in the 1990s.
Now we help others.
If/when Stormont gets going again will it have a presence/office of any sort in Brussels??
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 18, 2019, 11:40:42 AM
Quote from: trailer on December 18, 2019, 11:39:01 AM
No it isn't. It is completely unfair to put that pressure on a 10 year old. And lets be straight, what the Grammar system is doing is taking the best and easiest taught students and to f**k with the rest. It's laziness on behalf of the school and the teachers. It's dividing society on basis of intelligence and in some cases money, when it is already divided here on religion.

Name an alternative that works better.

Splitting up classes on the basis of intelligence is the sensible thing to do - otherwise the pace is too quick for the stupidest, and too slow for the smartest - meaning both are disadvantaged. Its a global economy. Wee Paddy from down the road isn't competing with wee Sammy from up the road. They are both competing with Chuck in the USA, Jian in China and Arhun from India.


Society already is divided on the basis of intelligence! What percent of idiots who can barely spell their own name do you think are in the top 5% of salaries?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Franko on December 18, 2019, 11:51:54 AM
Quote from: michaelg on December 17, 2019, 04:59:01 PM
Quote from: Franko on December 17, 2019, 11:43:23 AM
Quote from: michaelg on December 16, 2019, 09:23:48 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on December 16, 2019, 09:07:41 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 16, 2019, 06:55:11 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 16, 2019, 06:39:57 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 05:44:41 PM
A border poll is far down the list of things that need to happen between now an Irish reunification. Higher on the list is the desegregation of society in the north along religious lines, but I don't see a whole lot of progress being made on that front. SF have had the education portfolio for years and were able to scrap the grammar school system over the objections of recalcitrant people who wanted to retain selection, but don't seem to have the same eagerness for scrapping the unacceptable practice of keeping school kids segregated by religion until they go to the tech or go to Uni.

In fact SF's business model seems to be "complain about how unfairly treated we are by the evil Brits and that should keep the votes coming in." They'll probably spend the next decade banging on about why we need a border poll now and how unreasonable the Brits are for not providing one.
Ahh the magic bullet of integrated education.
Will these schools teach Irish history, Gaelige, do gaelic games?

Yes

No.
Integrated education is a fantastic idea, however, it is not universally implemented in the same way.
In my experience of it, there was no irish history, Irish language or gaelic games. However, there were Ulster Scotts classes, Badminton, soccer and table tennis.
In a school primarily staffed by Catholic Staff, with Protestant management. A primarily catholic intake at that time - and kids not getting places as there were too many catholics. Quite a few Protestant families complaining about the lack of Gaelic/Irish as they wanted there kids to experience something they felt they couldn't get elsewhere and also quite a few protestant families complaining when a teacher wore a gaelic top to a sponsored walk fund raiser.
The quality of education was also not what either the state or catholic schools (primary schools) as hardly anyone sat or had the ability to sit the transfer test.
No-one was happy with the level of integration, or lack thereof, in the integrated school I have experience of.

From what I have seen of it, Integrated education will only work if the management, staff and families who send their kids to these schools live and breath and integrated ethos. Staff, IMO, integrated schools are only there as they couldn't get a job in a school from their respective tradition. In many cases, kids in the schools are the same, though, there is a sizeable number of mixed marriages with kids in integrated schools.

I know I've gone on a bit of a rant there on Integrated Education, but it galls me to hear so much spouted about the virtues of Integrated Education when the realities don't really live up to the expectations.
Can't believe you could get so irked about a  spot of badmington and table tennis!  Surely the main virtue of integrated is that young people are being educated together from an early age, building life long friendships and realising that the folk from the other "community" don't have two heads.

Good point.  Clearly he has an issue with Badminton and Table Tennis.

In fact, you know what would be a good idea.  We should ignore everything else he has said and focus on his irrational hatred for these sports.

::)
The sports young people play at school is not the be all and end all.  I was merely pointing out that sharing a classroom from an early age with people from a different background is the main benefit of integrated education.


Please drop the pretence that you were being genuine.  Below is the list of issues he had with the school.  You said it was 'badmington' and tennis.

No Irish history

No Irish language

No Gaelic Games

Protestant families complaining about the lack of Gaelic/Irish as they wanted there kids to experience something they felt they couldn't get elsewhere

Kids not getting places as there were too many catholics

Protestant families complaining when a teacher wore a gaelic top to a sponsored walk fund raiser

The quality of education was not what either the state or catholic schools (primary schools) provided

Hardly anyone sat or had the ability to sit the transfer test

No-one was happy with the level of integration


Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on December 18, 2019, 11:56:24 AM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 18, 2019, 11:40:42 AM
Quote from: trailer on December 18, 2019, 11:39:01 AM
No it isn't. It is completely unfair to put that pressure on a 10 year old. And lets be straight, what the Grammar system is doing is taking the best and easiest taught students and to f**k with the rest. It's laziness on behalf of the school and the teachers. It's dividing society on basis of intelligence and in some cases money, when it is already divided here on religion.

Name an alternative that works better.

Splitting up classes on the basis of intelligence is the sensible thing to do - otherwise the pace is too quick for the stupidest, and too slow for the smartest - meaning both are disadvantaged. Its a global economy. Wee Paddy from down the road isn't competing with wee Sammy from up the road. They are both competing with Chuck in the USA, Jian in China and Arhun from India.


Society already is divided on the basis of intelligence! What percent of idiots who can barely spell their own name do you think are in the top 5% of salaries?

Just teach the kids, like they do in primary school. Splitting kids on academic ability is the easiest and laziest way out. If your child turned up to u-10 training and there was two groups. One for the best and one for the worst you'd be pissed or at least you should be. Kids learn by example and they learn from each other. Taking the highest achievers out actually limits their ability to learn.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 18, 2019, 12:01:57 PM
Quote from: trailer on December 18, 2019, 11:56:24 AM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 18, 2019, 11:40:42 AM
Quote from: trailer on December 18, 2019, 11:39:01 AM
No it isn't. It is completely unfair to put that pressure on a 10 year old. And lets be straight, what the Grammar system is doing is taking the best and easiest taught students and to f**k with the rest. It's laziness on behalf of the school and the teachers. It's dividing society on basis of intelligence and in some cases money, when it is already divided here on religion.

Name an alternative that works better.

Splitting up classes on the basis of intelligence is the sensible thing to do - otherwise the pace is too quick for the stupidest, and too slow for the smartest - meaning both are disadvantaged. Its a global economy. Wee Paddy from down the road isn't competing with wee Sammy from up the road. They are both competing with Chuck in the USA, Jian in China and Arhun from India.


Society already is divided on the basis of intelligence! What percent of idiots who can barely spell their own name do you think are in the top 5% of salaries?

Just teach the kids, like they do in primary school.

I have outlined in that very post why that won't work!

Name an alternative that does work.


Quote from: trailer on December 18, 2019, 11:56:24 AM
Splitting kids on academic ability is the easiest and laziest way out.

No - it is the logical solution to pacing lessons.


Quote from: trailer on December 18, 2019, 11:56:24 AM
If your child turned up to u-10 training and there was two groups. One for the best and one for the worst you'd be pissed or at least you should be. Kids learn by example and they learn from each other.

... and do you think the team would be better or worse?

Quote from: trailer on December 18, 2019, 11:56:24 AMTaking the highest achievers out actually limits their ability to learn.

Limits whose ability to learn? The smartest?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Franko on December 18, 2019, 12:07:46 PM
Quote from: trailer on December 18, 2019, 11:56:24 AM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 18, 2019, 11:40:42 AM
Quote from: trailer on December 18, 2019, 11:39:01 AM
No it isn't. It is completely unfair to put that pressure on a 10 year old. And lets be straight, what the Grammar system is doing is taking the best and easiest taught students and to f**k with the rest. It's laziness on behalf of the school and the teachers. It's dividing society on basis of intelligence and in some cases money, when it is already divided here on religion.

Name an alternative that works better.

Splitting up classes on the basis of intelligence is the sensible thing to do - otherwise the pace is too quick for the stupidest, and too slow for the smartest - meaning both are disadvantaged. Its a global economy. Wee Paddy from down the road isn't competing with wee Sammy from up the road. They are both competing with Chuck in the USA, Jian in China and Arhun from India.


Society already is divided on the basis of intelligence! What percent of idiots who can barely spell their own name do you think are in the top 5% of salaries?

Just teach the kids, like they do in primary school. Splitting kids on academic ability is the easiest and laziest way out. If your child turned up to u-10 training and there was two groups. One for the best and one for the worst you'd be pissed or at least you should be. Kids learn by example and they learn from each other. Taking the highest achievers out actually limits their ability to learn.

Another well thought out post by our resident expert.

::)
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Applesisapples on December 18, 2019, 12:14:52 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 17, 2019, 09:28:54 AM
There are 2 main dynamics at play. Demographics are reducing the Unionist share of population. English nationalism is destroying Britishness
NI was created to give a state to a single identity British population. Irrespective of the union or a UI what happens when the majority of elected reps are from a catholic nationalist background? In that scenario what do unionists do? They are already in a minority albeit the balance of power rests with the liberal unionist Alliance party. Tough days ahead for unionism and that's not related to continued membership of the UK. A UI is not inevitable but could be achieved. However unlike the NI state to succeed it must be based on inclusiveness of a British identity. We are a ways of that as yet.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Applesisapples on December 18, 2019, 12:18:50 PM
It's easy to forget that there was a point in time when only for the catholic education sector catholics in NI would not have been educated and they weren't fully funded to the 70's.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on December 18, 2019, 12:28:18 PM
Interestingly the newest education powerhouse, Estonia, do not stream children

https://www.bbc.com/news/education-50590581
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on December 18, 2019, 12:30:47 PM
Quote from: Franko on December 18, 2019, 12:07:46 PM
Quote from: trailer on December 18, 2019, 11:56:24 AM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 18, 2019, 11:40:42 AM
Quote from: trailer on December 18, 2019, 11:39:01 AM
No it isn't. It is completely unfair to put that pressure on a 10 year old. And lets be straight, what the Grammar system is doing is taking the best and easiest taught students and to f**k with the rest. It's laziness on behalf of the school and the teachers. It's dividing society on basis of intelligence and in some cases money, when it is already divided here on religion.

Name an alternative that works better.

Splitting up classes on the basis of intelligence is the sensible thing to do - otherwise the pace is too quick for the stupidest, and too slow for the smartest - meaning both are disadvantaged. Its a global economy. Wee Paddy from down the road isn't competing with wee Sammy from up the road. They are both competing with Chuck in the USA, Jian in China and Arhun from India.


Society already is divided on the basis of intelligence! What percent of idiots who can barely spell their own name do you think are in the top 5% of salaries?

Just teach the kids, like they do in primary school. Splitting kids on academic ability is the easiest and laziest way out. If your child turned up to u-10 training and there was two groups. One for the best and one for the worst you'd be pissed or at least you should be. Kids learn by example and they learn from each other. Taking the highest achievers out actually limits their ability to learn.

Another well thought out post by our resident expert.

::)

Jesus I must start following you around the board rolling my eyes at every contribution you make.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on December 18, 2019, 01:02:11 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 18, 2019, 11:39:15 AM
Quote from: five points on December 18, 2019, 11:33:31 AM

Quote from: tbrick18 on December 18, 2019, 10:59:25 AM
In that scenario, regardless of political persuasion, if we were to have on offer a scenario where we could re-join Europe and have all the same benefits our neighbours in ROI have I think it would be very difficult to argue against.

I'm amazed by this view that EU citizens enjoy huge benefits that are the envy of everyone else. The EU is essentially a bloated bureaucratic middleman that levies taxes on member states and, in the case of both Ireland and the UK, pays out substantially less than they pay in.

You do understand the benefits of the common market?

Of course I do. But countries outside the EU tend to do ok too. The Swiss and Norwegians aren't exactly beating down the door to join.

Quote from: Rossfan on December 18, 2019, 11:40:11 AM
Richer Countries helping poorer Countries.
We were happy to get loads of Cohesion and Structural funds in the 1990s.
Now we help others.

Yeah but those transfers have nothing do with the alleged benefits of the EU to ROI residents that their counterparts up north are set to lose.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 18, 2019, 01:14:57 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on December 18, 2019, 12:14:52 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 17, 2019, 09:28:54 AM
There are 2 main dynamics at play. Demographics are reducing the Unionist share of population. English nationalism is destroying Britishness
NI was created to give a state to a single identity British population. Irrespective of the union or a UI what happens when the majority of elected reps are from a catholic nationalist background? In that scenario what do unionists do? They are already in a minority albeit the balance of power rests with the liberal unionist Alliance party. Tough days ahead for unionism and that's not related to continued membership of the UK. A UI is not inevitable but could be achieved. However unlike the NI state to succeed it must be based on inclusiveness of a British identity. We are a ways of that as yet.

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/how-was-the-irish-border-drawn-in-the-first-place-1.3789571

How was the Irish Border drawn in the first place?
Three civil servants produced different options for temporary 'exclusion zone' in 1914

Conor Mulvagh


Nearing a century in existence the Irish Border has become the defining feature of Ireland's political geography. The Border was established in law in December 1920 but as an exclusion zone between two parts of the United Kingdom chalked for devolution, not independence. When the Anglo-Irish Treaty was ratified in 1922, the boundary line became an international border. But who drew the line in the first place and what thinking lay behind the decision to go for full six-county exclusion? In the spring of 1914, the British government secured secret approval for a strictly time-limited exclusion of an undetermined portion of Ulster from the leaders of nationalist Ireland – John Redmond, John Dillon, T P O'Connor, and Joseph Devlin.
Once the leadership of the Irish Parliamentary Party had been locked in, the British government began in earnest to draw up possible schemes for the exclusion of Ulster. The Chief Secretary for Ireland, Augustine Birrell, called upon three senior Irish civil servants to draw up a boundary for an Ulster exclusion zone. These were Birrell's undersecretary, Sir James B Dougherty; W F Bailey of the Estates Commissioners Office; and Sir Henry Augustus Robinson, vice-president of the Local Government Board for Ireland. Birrell set May 6th as the deadline for receipt of proposals from his three advisers. When submitted, each scheme included a justification for why certain communities were left north or south of the dividing line.
Ultimately it was Dougherty whose boundary scheme was adopted. On the eve of the first World War, Redmond and Edward Carson faced each other down for their claim to Fermanagh and Tyrone but following the 1916 Rising, Redmond abandoned his claim to what would become Northern Ireland's two Catholic-majority counties. Historian Roy Foster has described Redmond as "desperate . . . to achieve any settlement going" after the Rising.

Blue Billywig Video PlayerOf Crossmaglen nationalists, Robinson opined that they "are about the warmest lot I know"
Returning to 1914, the texts for the three exclusion schemes give unparalleled insight into the conceptual underpinnings of the modern Irish Border. Two stark points emerge. Firstly, decisions unsympathetic to large borderland communities were taken in the name of administrative efficiency. Secondly, the Border's architects explicitly bowed to force and the threat of violence. Decisions were made to leave substantial communities on the "wrong" side of the exclusion line because of the perceived strength of minority paramilitaries and agitators in their midst.
The Bailey scheme
Taking Bailey first, his was the most disruptive scheme and it paid the least heed to existing administrative boundaries. Instead, Bailey relied on physical geography to craft a more visible border. In Fermanagh, Bailey cut straight through both of the county's parliamentary divisions, running his boundary line directly up the middle of the Erne waterways system. Of the three schemes, Bailey's was the only one in which his accompanying notes made no acknowledgement to the scheme's temporary nature. Bailey's use of physical geography to create a visible and less permeable boundary line further suggests he had a permanent settlement in mind.
A reconstruction of W F Bailey's proposed borderline
Further down his boundary line, Bailey proposed the inclusion of the entire parliamentary division of North Monaghan within the unionist area. Monaghan was a county nobody else was even considering and North Monaghan had a two-thirds Catholic majority. Because his boundary line sliced through existing administrative units, it was impossible for Bailey to accurately estimate how many of the almost 1.2 million people he planned to exclude from the jurisdiction of the Home Rule parliament were Catholics and Protestants.
•   Brexit Borderlands: The Irish Times maps Ireland's border crossings
•   Brexit: An idiot's guide to the United Kingdom leaving the European Union
•   Wicklow shipping company 'had no contract' with UK no-deal Brexit firm


The Robinson scheme
By far the most thorough of the three exclusion schemes was that devised by Robinson. In drawing his boundary line, Robinson took local government boundaries as his operational unit: a method his undersecretary would later dismiss as unworkable. The Robinson scheme proposed the exclusion of 26.85 per cent of the population of Ireland and 28.58 per cent of Ireland's land by valuation. Robinson's exclusion zone was two-thirds Protestant and one-third Catholic. Of the three, Robinson's boundary line was the only one which explicitly considered infrastructure such as road and rail connections. Even though Robinson's line was not ultimately adopted, his justifications are highly instructive in explaining the thinking underpinning the final shape of the Irish Border, especially the inclusion of the two Catholic majority counties, Tyrone and Fermanagh, and the majority Catholic city of Derry.

On the eastern end of the boundary line, the Robinson scheme showed considerably more sympathy to Catholics than simple six-county exclusion. Robinson left south Armagh and south Down, including the heavily Catholic town of Newry, within Home Rule jurisdiction. One can only imagine how differently subsequent Irish history might have played out had south Armagh been under Dublin rule from the outset. In the western half of Ulster, Robinson made a number of sweeping decisions regarding large swathes of territory with solid Catholic majorities.
In drawing his line, Robinson factored in "the degrees of obstreperousness in the rival sectarian factions on the border line". In terms of appeasing volatile sectarian communities, Robinson bent to both nationalist and unionist extremists. Of Crossmaglen nationalists, he opined that they "are about the warmest lot I know". In Fermanagh, Robinson's justification was even more illuminating. Here he justified the inclusion of an area with a 3,000-strong Catholic majority because "there has been more money spent on armament and drilling here than in any part of the county and these Enniskillen and Lisnaskea protestant farmers are the most blood-thirsty set of ruffians I know". Fearing a contagion effect in Cavan and Monaghan, Robinson defended the exclusion of these districts as "there would be no peace or settlement along the whole border line if these people were left out". Bailey had applied the same logic to justify the inclusion of North Monaghan and the whole of Tyrone, the Protestant minorities of which he described as being "very strong and . . . better drilled and armed than in almost any part of the Province".
Despite all of his careful work and calculations, Robinson all but threw away all his careful cartography at the end of his letter to Birrell stating: "I expect you will find that the Ulstermen's minimum will be six entire counties in and no option . . . Personally, I agree about no option [putting the matter to a plebiscite]. It will indeed mean riots when this crucial issue is announced."

The Dougherty scheme
The third and final scheme to be submitted was that of Dougherty, the highest-ranking civil servant in Ireland. Dougherty first wrote on May 7th explaining that it would be "a difficult, if not impossible job to construct these pens" and that "the policy of exclusion, whatever plan may be adopted, bristles with difficulties and . . . I do not see how they are to be surmounted."
Dougherty's full memorandum was submitted on May 11th. It considered the merits and demerits of dividing the province by local government areas, parliamentary divisions, and full counties. Of these, Dougherty's preference was for the scheme which was ultimately adopted: county option. Dougherty's rationale focused largely on the administrative headache he foresaw in dealing with an otherwise excluded area in which local government boards, county councils, and existing parliamentary constituencies would be split across two jurisdictions.
All three schemes recommended that Ulster's second city, Derry, which had a 56 per cent Catholic majority, be put into the exclusion zone. Robinson argued that it was "impossible to keep the maiden city out of the parent county". Dougherty reminded his chief secretary that "the city of Derry has strong sentimental attractions for the Ulster Protestant, and it is the headquarters of the county administration" adding that "it is unlikely the 'Covenanters' will now consent to see the city excluded from Protestant Ulster."

Despite declaring for the whole-county option, Dougherty fudged his answer to the question of whether four or six counties should be excluded. His rationale for four-county exclusion was based on the fact that such a scheme would create "a tolerably compact area" but he seems on balance to have conceded that six counties would be the more realistic outcome due to the fact that "it is difficult to see how the Ulster Covenanters in the four included counties can abandon their brethren in Tyrone or Fermanagh"
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 18, 2019, 01:16:54 PM
Quote from: Kidder81 on December 18, 2019, 12:28:18 PM
Interestingly the newest education powerhouse, Estonia, do not stream children

https://www.bbc.com/news/education-50590581

Because the kids are self-motivated:

https://estonianworld.com/knowledge/pisa-study-estonian-pupils-are-the-best-in-europe/

QuoteAccording to the study, majority (77%) of Estonian students exhibit growth mindset – they believe they are capable of improving their intelligence and are willing to put effort into their own development in order to secure a better future. This is the highest among the OECD countries. 70% of students plan to attain higher education; the most popular professions are ICT specialist, doctor, CEO, architect and psychologist.

Our lot are anything but.

Its even more difficult when some parents don't give two flying fukks about their kid's education either.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 18, 2019, 01:19:00 PM
Quote from: five points on December 18, 2019, 01:02:11 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 18, 2019, 11:39:15 AM
Quote from: five points on December 18, 2019, 11:33:31 AM

Quote from: tbrick18 on December 18, 2019, 10:59:25 AM
In that scenario, regardless of political persuasion, if we were to have on offer a scenario where we could re-join Europe and have all the same benefits our neighbours in ROI have I think it would be very difficult to argue against.

I'm amazed by this view that EU citizens enjoy huge benefits that are the envy of everyone else. The EU is essentially a bloated bureaucratic middleman that levies taxes on member states and, in the case of both Ireland and the UK, pays out substantially less than they pay in.

You do understand the benefits of the common market?

Of course I do. But countries outside the EU tend to do ok too. The Swiss and Norwegians aren't exactly beating down the door to join.

Both of those countries have access (or as good as) to the common market.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on December 18, 2019, 01:24:12 PM
Dont they have special deals and pay for that privilege?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on December 18, 2019, 01:24:34 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 18, 2019, 01:19:00 PM
Both of those countries have access (or as good as) to the common market.

As will the UK, if they want it.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 18, 2019, 01:25:53 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 18, 2019, 01:24:12 PM
Dont they have special deals and pay for that privilege?

Yep.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 18, 2019, 01:26:43 PM
Quote from: five points on December 18, 2019, 01:24:34 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 18, 2019, 01:19:00 PM
Both of those countries have access (or as good as) to the common market.

As will the UK, if they want it.

That's the big question though isn't it.

By all appearances - Bozo and the ERJ want to move closer to the US.

They won't be able to have common market access and a FTA with the USA. The two are too incompatible.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on December 18, 2019, 01:29:21 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 18, 2019, 01:26:43 PM
Quote from: five points on December 18, 2019, 01:24:34 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 18, 2019, 01:19:00 PM
Both of those countries have access (or as good as) to the common market.

As will the UK, if they want it.

That's the big question though isn't it.

By all appearances - Bozo and the ERJ want to move closer to the US.

They won't be able to have common market access and a FTA with the USA. The two are too incompatible.
I suspect they'll do whatever they think will benefit the UK the most. Meanwhile as someone who is absolutely crippled with taxes here in ROI I'm still wondering where are these wonderful EU benefits that we're supposed to be enjoying.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on December 18, 2019, 01:44:49 PM
Quote from: five points on December 18, 2019, 01:29:21 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 18, 2019, 01:26:43 PM
Quote from: five points on December 18, 2019, 01:24:34 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 18, 2019, 01:19:00 PM
Both of those countries have access (or as good as) to the common market.

As will the UK, if they want it.

That's the big question though isn't it.

By all appearances - Bozo and the ERJ want to move closer to the US.

They won't be able to have common market access and a FTA with the USA. The two are too incompatible.
I suspect they'll do whatever they think will benefit the UK the most. Meanwhile as someone who is absolutely crippled with taxes here in ROI I'm still wondering where are these wonderful EU benefits that we're supposed to be enjoying.

Do you drive at all?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 18, 2019, 02:13:09 PM
Quote from: five points on December 18, 2019, 01:29:21 PM
Meanwhile as someone who is absolutely crippled with taxes here in ROI I'm still wondering where are these wonderful EU benefits that we're supposed to be enjoying.

I genuinely don't know how to respond to this.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: tbrick18 on December 18, 2019, 02:33:22 PM
Quote from: five points on December 18, 2019, 11:33:31 AM

Quote from: tbrick18 on December 18, 2019, 10:59:25 AM
In that scenario, regardless of political persuasion, if we were to have on offer a scenario where we could re-join Europe and have all the same benefits our neighbours in ROI have I think it would be very difficult to argue against.

I'm amazed by this view that EU citizens enjoy huge benefits that are the envy of everyone else. The EU is essentially a bloated bureaucratic middleman that levies taxes on member states and, in the case of both Ireland and the UK, pays out substantially less than they pay in.

In any of the fiscal studies carried out, and indeed in the leaked reports from government, all have pointed out that NI will be substantially worse off than it currently is with any form of Brexit. So regardless of what you think of the EU and it's benefits or lack thereof, for NI it seems it would benefit us more to be in the EU than outside it.
I think people don't really believe the studies or perhaps they haven't been explained well enough for there to be mass outrage at this, though we did vote remain in NI. But, as time goes on if this proves to be the case it could become apparent to everyone that we would be better off in Europe.
The easiest route for NI to be a member of the EU, is a UI.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 18, 2019, 02:36:20 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 18, 2019, 11:40:42 AM
Quote from: trailer on December 18, 2019, 11:39:01 AM
No it isn't. It is completely unfair to put that pressure on a 10 year old. And lets be straight, what the Grammar system is doing is taking the best and easiest taught students and to f**k with the rest. It's laziness on behalf of the school and the teachers. It's dividing society on basis of intelligence and in some cases money, when it is already divided here on religion.

Name an alternative that works better.

Splitting up classes on the basis of intelligence is the sensible thing to do - otherwise the pace is too quick for the stupidest, and too slow for the smartest - meaning both are disadvantaged. Its a global economy. Wee Paddy from down the road isn't competing with wee Sammy from up the road. They are both competing with Chuck in the USA, Jian in China and Arhun from India.


Society already is divided on the basis of intelligence! What percent of idiots who can barely spell their own name do you think are in the top 5% of salaries?

Splitting classes based on ability can work. Matching the pace of work to the ability of the child in the subject can work. Name 1 outright grammar school that does either?

In the global economy what skills does NI need to compete? Do grammar schools provide these skills?

Outline the benefits as you see them of doing a single exam at 10 years old, hinging everything on the result and putting the child in school A where they are taught at a "grammar pace" but don't have the ability at say 15 of the kid that didn't do the test or didn't perform to their ability in it or was sick on the day but then exhibited or developed the ability after the age of 10?

Are you saying that you have thought about it and cannot think of a better system that grammar schools?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 18, 2019, 02:37:10 PM
With the benefit of hindsight the Unionists should have left Derry city, Throne and Fermanagh in the Free State if they wanted the thing to last.
And it was stupid not to make concessions to Nationalists in the early 60s.

  http://virtualmethodist.blogspot.com/2009/09/coasters.html

You coasted along
To larger houses, gadgets, more machines
To golf and weekend bungalows,
Caravans when the children were small,
the Mediterranean, later, with the wife.

You did not go to Church often,
Weddings were special;
But you kept your name on the books
Against eventualities;
And the parson called, or the curate.

You showed a sense of responsibility,
With subscriptions to worthwhile causes
And service in voluntary organisations;
And, anyhow, this did the business no harm,
No harm at all.
Relations were improving. A good
useful life. You coasted along.

You even had a friend of two of the other sort,
Coasting too: your ways ran parallel.
Their children and yours seldom met, though,
Being at different schools.
You visited each other, decent folk with a sense
Of humour. Introduced, even, to
One of their clergy. And then you smiled
In the looking-glass, admiring, a
Little moved by, your broadmindedness.
Your father would never have known
One of them. Come to think of it,
When you were young, your own home was never
Visited by one of the other sort.

Relations were improving. The annual processions
began to look rather like folk-festivals.

When that noisy preacher started,
he seemed old-fashioned, a survival.
Later you remarked on his vehemence,
a bit on the rough side.
But you said, admit, you said in the club,
'You know, there's something in what he says'.


And you who seldom had time to read a book,
what with reports and the colour-supplements,
denounced censorship.
And you who never had an adventurous thought
were positive that the church of the other sort
vetoes thought.
And you who simply put up with marriage
for the children's sake, deplored
the attitude of the other sort
to divorce.
You coasted along.

And all the time, though you never noticed,
The old lies festered;
the ignorant became more thoroughly infected;
there were gains, of course;
you never saw any go barefoot.

The government permanent, sustained
by the regular plebiscites of loyalty.
You always voted but never
put a sticker on your car;
a card in the window
would not have been seen from the street.
Faces changed on posters, names too, often,
but the same families, the same class of people.
A Minister once called you by your first name.
You coasted along
and the sores supperated and spread.


Now the fever is high and raging;
Who would have guessed it, coasting along?
The ignorant-sick thresh about in delirium
And tear at the scabs with dirty finger-nails.
The cloud of infection hangs over the city,
A quick change of wind and it
Might spill over the leafy suburbs.
You coasted along.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 18, 2019, 02:39:49 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on December 18, 2019, 12:18:50 PM
It's easy to forget that there was a point in time when only for the catholic education sector catholics in NI would not have been educated and they weren't fully funded to the 70's.

An interesting point of history but of zero relevance to how best to educate and look after our society today
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 18, 2019, 02:41:06 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on December 18, 2019, 12:14:52 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 17, 2019, 09:28:54 AM
There are 2 main dynamics at play. Demographics are reducing the Unionist share of population. English nationalism is destroying Britishness
NI was created to give a state to a single identity British population. Irrespective of the union or a UI what happens when the majority of elected reps are from a catholic nationalist background? In that scenario what do unionists do? They are already in a minority albeit the balance of power rests with the liberal unionist Alliance party. Tough days ahead for unionism and that's not related to continued membership of the UK. A UI is not inevitable but could be achieved. However unlike the NI state to succeed it must be based on inclusiveness of a British identity. We are a ways of that as yet.

Are Alliance a unionist party?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: tbrick18 on December 18, 2019, 02:43:01 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on December 18, 2019, 12:18:50 PM
It's easy to forget that there was a point in time when only for the catholic education sector catholics in NI would not have been educated and they weren't fully funded to the 70's.

+1
Education was (and I hesitate to use the word) weaponised within Nationalism. It was seen as a way of climbing out from under the boot of Unionist oppression and largely it has worked.
CCMS facilitated the education of Catholics to a level not previously seen here and now generally speaking the Catholic education system provides an education to a higher level than the State system.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on December 18, 2019, 03:03:22 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on December 18, 2019, 02:33:22 PM
Quote from: five points on December 18, 2019, 11:33:31 AM

Quote from: tbrick18 on December 18, 2019, 10:59:25 AM
In that scenario, regardless of political persuasion, if we were to have on offer a scenario where we could re-join Europe and have all the same benefits our neighbours in ROI have I think it would be very difficult to argue against.

I'm amazed by this view that EU citizens enjoy huge benefits that are the envy of everyone else. The EU is essentially a bloated bureaucratic middleman that levies taxes on member states and, in the case of both Ireland and the UK, pays out substantially less than they pay in.

In any of the fiscal studies carried out, and indeed in the leaked reports from government, all have pointed out that NI will be substantially worse off than it currently is with any form of Brexit. So regardless of what you think of the EU and it's benefits or lack thereof, for NI it seems it would benefit us more to be in the EU than outside it.
I think people don't really believe the studies or perhaps they haven't been explained well enough for there to be mass outrage at this, though we did vote remain in NI. But, as time goes on if this proves to be the case it could become apparent to everyone that we would be better off in Europe.
The easiest route for NI to be a member of the EU, is a UI.

Over many decades I have seen enough government and govt agency studies to be very suspicious of what they conclude and advise.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Franko on December 18, 2019, 03:09:02 PM
Quote from: trailer on December 18, 2019, 12:30:47 PM
Quote from: Franko on December 18, 2019, 12:07:46 PM
Quote from: trailer on December 18, 2019, 11:56:24 AM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 18, 2019, 11:40:42 AM
Quote from: trailer on December 18, 2019, 11:39:01 AM
No it isn't. It is completely unfair to put that pressure on a 10 year old. And lets be straight, what the Grammar system is doing is taking the best and easiest taught students and to f**k with the rest. It's laziness on behalf of the school and the teachers. It's dividing society on basis of intelligence and in some cases money, when it is already divided here on religion.

Name an alternative that works better.

Splitting up classes on the basis of intelligence is the sensible thing to do - otherwise the pace is too quick for the stupidest, and too slow for the smartest - meaning both are disadvantaged. Its a global economy. Wee Paddy from down the road isn't competing with wee Sammy from up the road. They are both competing with Chuck in the USA, Jian in China and Arhun from India.


Society already is divided on the basis of intelligence! What percent of idiots who can barely spell their own name do you think are in the top 5% of salaries?

Just teach the kids, like they do in primary school. Splitting kids on academic ability is the easiest and laziest way out. If your child turned up to u-10 training and there was two groups. One for the best and one for the worst you'd be pissed or at least you should be. Kids learn by example and they learn from each other. Taking the highest achievers out actually limits their ability to learn.

Another well thought out post by our resident expert.

::)

Jesus I must start following you around the board rolling my eyes at every contribution you make.

To reference an intellectual peer of yours, "Chat shit, get banged"
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Applesisapples on December 18, 2019, 03:34:05 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 18, 2019, 02:41:06 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on December 18, 2019, 12:14:52 PM
Quote from: seafoid on December 17, 2019, 09:28:54 AM
There are 2 main dynamics at play. Demographics are reducing the Unionist share of population. English nationalism is destroying Britishness
NI was created to give a state to a single identity British population. Irrespective of the union or a UI what happens when the majority of elected reps are from a catholic nationalist background? In that scenario what do unionists do? They are already in a minority albeit the balance of power rests with the liberal unionist Alliance party. Tough days ahead for unionism and that's not related to continued membership of the UK. A UI is not inevitable but could be achieved. However unlike the NI state to succeed it must be based on inclusiveness of a British identity. We are a ways of that as yet.

Are Alliance a unionist party?
They say not but opting for the status quo is opting to maintain the union, you can't be agnostic on the union.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Applesisapples on December 18, 2019, 03:35:54 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 18, 2019, 02:39:49 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on December 18, 2019, 12:18:50 PM
It's easy to forget that there was a point in time when only for the catholic education sector catholics in NI would not have been educated and they weren't fully funded to the 70's.

An interesting point of history but of zero relevance to how best to educate and look after our society today
Not saying that but in the midst of all the criticism on here re that sector we need to remember that was it not for it many like myself would never have been able to go to University.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: michaelg on December 18, 2019, 04:48:02 PM
Quote from: Franko on December 18, 2019, 11:51:54 AM
Quote from: michaelg on December 17, 2019, 04:59:01 PM
Quote from: Franko on December 17, 2019, 11:43:23 AM
Quote from: michaelg on December 16, 2019, 09:23:48 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on December 16, 2019, 09:07:41 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 16, 2019, 06:55:11 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 16, 2019, 06:39:57 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 05:44:41 PM
A border poll is far down the list of things that need to happen between now an Irish reunification. Higher on the list is the desegregation of society in the north along religious lines, but I don't see a whole lot of progress being made on that front. SF have had the education portfolio for years and were able to scrap the grammar school system over the objections of recalcitrant people who wanted to retain selection, but don't seem to have the same eagerness for scrapping the unacceptable practice of keeping school kids segregated by religion until they go to the tech or go to Uni.

In fact SF's business model seems to be "complain about how unfairly treated we are by the evil Brits and that should keep the votes coming in." They'll probably spend the next decade banging on about why we need a border poll now and how unreasonable the Brits are for not providing one.
Ahh the magic bullet of integrated education.
Will these schools teach Irish history, Gaelige, do gaelic games?

Yes

No.
Integrated education is a fantastic idea, however, it is not universally implemented in the same way.
In my experience of it, there was no irish history, Irish language or gaelic games. However, there were Ulster Scotts classes, Badminton, soccer and table tennis.
In a school primarily staffed by Catholic Staff, with Protestant management. A primarily catholic intake at that time - and kids not getting places as there were too many catholics. Quite a few Protestant families complaining about the lack of Gaelic/Irish as they wanted there kids to experience something they felt they couldn't get elsewhere and also quite a few protestant families complaining when a teacher wore a gaelic top to a sponsored walk fund raiser.
The quality of education was also not what either the state or catholic schools (primary schools) as hardly anyone sat or had the ability to sit the transfer test.
No-one was happy with the level of integration, or lack thereof, in the integrated school I have experience of.

From what I have seen of it, Integrated education will only work if the management, staff and families who send their kids to these schools live and breath and integrated ethos. Staff, IMO, integrated schools are only there as they couldn't get a job in a school from their respective tradition. In many cases, kids in the schools are the same, though, there is a sizeable number of mixed marriages with kids in integrated schools.

I know I've gone on a bit of a rant there on Integrated Education, but it galls me to hear so much spouted about the virtues of Integrated Education when the realities don't really live up to the expectations.
Can't believe you could get so irked about a  spot of badmington and table tennis!  Surely the main virtue of integrated is that young people are being educated together from an early age, building life long friendships and realising that the folk from the other "community" don't have two heads.

Good point.  Clearly he has an issue with Badminton and Table Tennis.

In fact, you know what would be a good idea.  We should ignore everything else he has said and focus on his irrational hatred for these sports.

::)
The sports young people play at school is not the be all and end all.  I was merely pointing out that sharing a classroom from an early age with people from a different background is the main benefit of integrated education.


Please drop the pretence that you were being genuine.  Below is the list of issues he had with the school.  You said it was 'badmington' and tennis.

No Irish history

No Irish language

No Gaelic Games

Protestant families complaining about the lack of Gaelic/Irish as they wanted there kids to experience something they felt they couldn't get elsewhere

Kids not getting places as there were too many catholics

Protestant families complaining when a teacher wore a gaelic top to a sponsored walk fund raiser

The quality of education was not what either the state or catholic schools (primary schools) provided

Hardly anyone sat or had the ability to sit the transfer test

No-one was happy with the level of integration
Do you think that the list above is representative of all integrated schools?  The point that I made (twice) is that there is huge benefit in young people in this country being educated together.  Not sure why you would accuse of me of not being genuine in making the fairly obvious point above.   
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on December 18, 2019, 04:49:40 PM
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/ff-td-united-ireland-could-celebrate-the-twelfth-and-rejoin-commonwealth-38795028.html

Shameful reaction from the Blueshirt Bolx.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 18, 2019, 04:56:39 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 18, 2019, 02:36:20 PM
Splitting classes based on ability can work. Matching the pace of work to the ability of the child in the subject can work. Name 1 outright grammar school that does either?

They don't necessarily have to as the 11+ has already done much of the splitting for them.

Remove the 11+ and suddenly you are faced with a much wider gap between top and bottom within the one class. With the result that many at the upper end will be slowed to a speed nearer the slowest in the "herd".


Quote from: smelmoth on December 18, 2019, 02:36:20 PM
In the global economy what skills does NI need to compete? Do grammar schools provide these skills?

Are you f**king serious?

I suppose all those engineering jobs in Bombardier or those IT jobs are given to folks that can't add.

You aren't fit for an engineer degree if you cannot tackle sums.


Quote from: smelmoth on December 18, 2019, 02:36:20 PM
Outline the benefits as you see them of doing a single exam at 10 years old, hinging everything on the result

Everything doesn't hinge on the result. They still have the opportunity to do their GCSEs and A-levels.

If you believe everything hinges on the result then you are acknowledging that the presence of stupider kids in the same class slows the development of said smarter kid.


Quote from: smelmoth on December 18, 2019, 02:36:20 PM
and putting the child in school A where they are taught at a "grammar pace" but don't have the ability at say 15 of the kid that didn't do the test or didn't perform to their ability in it or was sick on the day but then exhibited or developed the ability after the age of 10?

You railing against the performance of kids within secondary schools is acknowledging the impact that a slower pace of lesson has on said kid.


Quote from: smelmoth on December 18, 2019, 02:36:20 PM
Are you saying that you have thought about it and cannot think of a better system that grammar schools?

If I had my way - it would be quite a substantial departure from now - which is not realistic as no-one in charge wants to grasp the nettle.


I would suggest breaking up second level education into lower and upper schools - and have them exclusively deal within each age band (separated sites).


Lower runs from 12-14 years old (inclusive) - key stage 3 essentially. The number of kids within each year of the school (given that it is only 3 years) is large enough to allow effective streamlining and preserving a high pace for the smarter children.  i.e. you might have 8-10 classes per year.


Upper "school" runs from 15-18 - and is not purely academic.
Those that are more practical than academic would go to technical colleges (where they would do a few GCSEs, including maths & english alongside more practical subjects - i.e. plumbing/sparking/etc)
Those that are more academic than practical would go to a more conventional school, where they would sit a high number of GCSEs & then on to A-levels.



So there would be no 11+, there is sufficient pacing given to lessons across the ability range of children - and kids aren't wasting their time at 15-16 years old doing stuff they have no interest in or need to know.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on December 18, 2019, 04:56:45 PM
Don't knock an extra days leave on the twelfth. Sure you can join the rest of us in bundoran!  ;D
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 18, 2019, 04:59:39 PM
Quote from: five points on December 18, 2019, 03:03:22 PM
Over many decades I have seen enough government and govt agency studies to be very suspicious of what they conclude and advise.

Have you been able to conclude that the presence of a motorway has reduced the journey time from Dublin to Belfast to less than 2 hours rather than 5?

Or are you suspicious of your watch?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 18, 2019, 05:02:28 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 18, 2019, 04:49:40 PM
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/ff-td-united-ireland-could-celebrate-the-twelfth-and-rejoin-commonwealth-38795028.html

Shameful reaction from the Bkushirt Bolx.

I can only see the first few lines of it - but that is the kind of conversation that needs to be had.

Having the 12th as a public holiday is not a problem for me if it means a peaceful and prosperous UI... indeed I'd be amazed if anyone had objections to it. Like it or not - the Battle of the Boyne is one of enormous significance to the history of this island.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Denn Forever on December 18, 2019, 05:23:31 PM
Choc ices 3 for a pound
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on December 18, 2019, 05:29:18 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 18, 2019, 05:02:28 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 18, 2019, 04:49:40 PM
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/ff-td-united-ireland-could-celebrate-the-twelfth-and-rejoin-commonwealth-38795028.html

Shameful reaction from the Bkushirt Bolx.

I can only see the first few lines of it - but that is the kind of conversation that needs to be had.

Having the 12th as a public holiday is not a problem for me if it means a peaceful and prosperous UI... indeed I'd be amazed if anyone had objections to it. Like it or not - the Battle of the Boyne is one of enormous significance to the history of this island.
He resurrected an old comment by Albert Reynolds about reserving 30% of cabinet posts for Unionists.
Also that the Irish Government should be preparing plans for what a UI might look like.
FG Senator Richmond said the comments were reckless given the uncertainty caused by Brexit.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on December 18, 2019, 06:02:44 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on December 18, 2019, 10:29:53 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 17, 2019, 04:46:48 PM
My response to the old "integrated education is not a panacea" trope is as follows:

Segregated education is not a panacea either.

If integrated schools are providing lower quality education then that's an argument for giving them more funding so they can attract better management and better teachers. The work they do is too important to be relegated to the bottom of the priority list. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't CCMS schools funded partly by the state? If that's the case then it represents a large transfer of public money to a private institution to further its private goals of brainwashing children into a particular belief system, as well as deepening divisions. Utter madness.

You can't take down the peace walls until kids go to school together.

Another old cop-out I used to hear all the time was that CCMS schools "teach children to respect people of different faiths." What a load of cobblers. The ones lobbing petrol bombs in Kilwilkee over the years all went to CCMS schools. Respect for people is not something you learn in lessons from a book. You learn it between lessons. In the corridors. In the playground. Waiting for the school bus. On the school bus. In the cafeteria. You build relationships and grow up together with people from diverse backgrounds, that's where you learn the most, not by listening to some nun droning on for half an hour about how we should be nice to them "up to no good" protestants.

That's a very narrow view, in my opinion. Respect for people has to be taught at home, school shouldn't bear the full responsibility. You reference Kilwilkee in a way that almost suggests the CCMS schools were responsible, I'd argue that it was more likely the responsibility lay with the parents and families who were probably out doing the same thing.
Were I grew up was a rural area and I attended a CCMS school. In that area it was predominantly Catholic, but there was a sizeable Protestant minority. In my memory, I never once remember any issues between the two communities. Farming was the priority, not politics. Farmers of one persuasion regularly helped farmers of the other persuasion, and still do. In fact, a cross community group was set up and did a lot for the area.
Integrated education is an ideal. It cannot work without the same ethos being applied in the homes of staff and students.

CCMS do get funding from the education authority, but so does the Integrated sector through NICIE, and the Irish Medium schools through an organisation that I can't remember the name of.
In terms of setup, there may not be much difference between the two (though I'm no expert here).

In terms of attracting higher quality staff by giving them more funding....that's not possible. As all teachers and Principles here are civil servants and get paid on a scale. The same scale across all schools. The only way it can be increased is by government, and if its increased for one sector its increased to all.
One of the big issues I've seen in staffing in integrated schools is that once in the integrated system, it is very difficult for a teacher to gain employment in CCMS or state schools at a later point. Not impossible, but certainly there seems to be very few teachers moving out of the integrated sector.

This reminds me of conservative arguments against sex education in schools. "It should be taught in the home!" they say. Great. What if it's not taught in the home?  In that case if it's not taught in the schools then it's not taught at all. Same goes for respect for people from different backgrounds.

The segregation of society in the north is hardly the poster child for community relations. Segregated education has been a failure. It's long past time to move on past it.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on December 18, 2019, 06:24:02 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 18, 2019, 04:59:39 PM
Quote from: five points on December 18, 2019, 03:03:22 PM
Over many decades I have seen enough government and govt agency studies to be very suspicious of what they conclude and advise.

Have you been able to conclude that the presence of a motorway has reduced the journey time from Dublin to Belfast to less than 2 hours rather than 5?

Or are you suspicious of your watch?

If those are the best analogies you can come up with, you don't know the meaning of the word.

If you want to believe every bit of self-serving balderdash you read in an official report, that ain't my problem.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on December 18, 2019, 07:01:11 PM
Quote from: five points on December 18, 2019, 06:24:02 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 18, 2019, 04:59:39 PM
Quote from: five points on December 18, 2019, 03:03:22 PM
Over many decades I have seen enough government and govt agency studies to be very suspicious of what they conclude and advise.

Have you been able to conclude that the presence of a motorway has reduced the journey time from Dublin to Belfast to less than 2 hours rather than 5?

Or are you suspicious of your watch?

If those are the best analogies you can come up with, you don't know the meaning of the word.

If you want to believe every bit of self-serving balderdash you read in an official report, that ain't my problem.

Great bit of point-missing. Thanks to the EU there's now a motorway from Newry to Dublin. That's kind of a big deal. Unless you're too young to remember what a laborious journey it used to be, driving to Dublin from the north.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Franko on December 18, 2019, 08:04:50 PM
Quote from: michaelg on December 18, 2019, 04:48:02 PM
Quote from: Franko on December 18, 2019, 11:51:54 AM
Quote from: michaelg on December 17, 2019, 04:59:01 PM
Quote from: Franko on December 17, 2019, 11:43:23 AM
Quote from: michaelg on December 16, 2019, 09:23:48 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on December 16, 2019, 09:07:41 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 16, 2019, 06:55:11 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 16, 2019, 06:39:57 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 05:44:41 PM
A border poll is far down the list of things that need to happen between now an Irish reunification. Higher on the list is the desegregation of society in the north along religious lines, but I don't see a whole lot of progress being made on that front. SF have had the education portfolio for years and were able to scrap the grammar school system over the objections of recalcitrant people who wanted to retain selection, but don't seem to have the same eagerness for scrapping the unacceptable practice of keeping school kids segregated by religion until they go to the tech or go to Uni.

In fact SF's business model seems to be "complain about how unfairly treated we are by the evil Brits and that should keep the votes coming in." They'll probably spend the next decade banging on about why we need a border poll now and how unreasonable the Brits are for not providing one.
Ahh the magic bullet of integrated education.
Will these schools teach Irish history, Gaelige, do gaelic games?

Yes

No.
Integrated education is a fantastic idea, however, it is not universally implemented in the same way.
In my experience of it, there was no irish history, Irish language or gaelic games. However, there were Ulster Scotts classes, Badminton, soccer and table tennis.
In a school primarily staffed by Catholic Staff, with Protestant management. A primarily catholic intake at that time - and kids not getting places as there were too many catholics. Quite a few Protestant families complaining about the lack of Gaelic/Irish as they wanted there kids to experience something they felt they couldn't get elsewhere and also quite a few protestant families complaining when a teacher wore a gaelic top to a sponsored walk fund raiser.
The quality of education was also not what either the state or catholic schools (primary schools) as hardly anyone sat or had the ability to sit the transfer test.
No-one was happy with the level of integration, or lack thereof, in the integrated school I have experience of.

From what I have seen of it, Integrated education will only work if the management, staff and families who send their kids to these schools live and breath and integrated ethos. Staff, IMO, integrated schools are only there as they couldn't get a job in a school from their respective tradition. In many cases, kids in the schools are the same, though, there is a sizeable number of mixed marriages with kids in integrated schools.

I know I've gone on a bit of a rant there on Integrated Education, but it galls me to hear so much spouted about the virtues of Integrated Education when the realities don't really live up to the expectations.
Can't believe you could get so irked about a  spot of badmington and table tennis!  Surely the main virtue of integrated is that young people are being educated together from an early age, building life long friendships and realising that the folk from the other "community" don't have two heads.

Good point.  Clearly he has an issue with Badminton and Table Tennis.

In fact, you know what would be a good idea.  We should ignore everything else he has said and focus on his irrational hatred for these sports.

::)
The sports young people play at school is not the be all and end all.  I was merely pointing out that sharing a classroom from an early age with people from a different background is the main benefit of integrated education.


Please drop the pretence that you were being genuine.  Below is the list of issues he had with the school.  You said it was 'badmington' and tennis.

No Irish history

No Irish language

No Gaelic Games

Protestant families complaining about the lack of Gaelic/Irish as they wanted there kids to experience something they felt they couldn't get elsewhere

Kids not getting places as there were too many catholics

Protestant families complaining when a teacher wore a gaelic top to a sponsored walk fund raiser

The quality of education was not what either the state or catholic schools (primary schools) provided

Hardly anyone sat or had the ability to sit the transfer test

No-one was happy with the level of integration
Do you think that the list above is representative of all integrated schools?  The point that I made (twice) is that there is huge benefit in young people in this country being educated together.  Not sure why you would accuse of me of not being genuine in making the fairly obvious point above.   

Three reasons;

You started your post with a snide remark.

You didn't acknowledge any of the genuine points he had brought up and attempted to belittle the concerns

He literally started his post by saying that integrated education was a fantastic idea (which I also happen to agree with), so not sure why a genuine person would have felt the need to agree (twice) but in a curiously confrontational manner.

Cheers
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: michaelg on December 18, 2019, 10:20:42 PM
Quote from: Franko on December 18, 2019, 08:04:50 PM
Quote from: michaelg on December 18, 2019, 04:48:02 PM
Quote from: Franko on December 18, 2019, 11:51:54 AM
Quote from: michaelg on December 17, 2019, 04:59:01 PM
Quote from: Franko on December 17, 2019, 11:43:23 AM
Quote from: michaelg on December 16, 2019, 09:23:48 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on December 16, 2019, 09:07:41 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 16, 2019, 06:55:11 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 16, 2019, 06:39:57 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 16, 2019, 05:44:41 PM
A border poll is far down the list of things that need to happen between now an Irish reunification. Higher on the list is the desegregation of society in the north along religious lines, but I don't see a whole lot of progress being made on that front. SF have had the education portfolio for years and were able to scrap the grammar school system over the objections of recalcitrant people who wanted to retain selection, but don't seem to have the same eagerness for scrapping the unacceptable practice of keeping school kids segregated by religion until they go to the tech or go to Uni.

In fact SF's business model seems to be "complain about how unfairly treated we are by the evil Brits and that should keep the votes coming in." They'll probably spend the next decade banging on about why we need a border poll now and how unreasonable the Brits are for not providing one.
Ahh the magic bullet of integrated education.
Will these schools teach Irish history, Gaelige, do gaelic games?

Yes

No.
Integrated education is a fantastic idea, however, it is not universally implemented in the same way.
In my experience of it, there was no irish history, Irish language or gaelic games. However, there were Ulster Scotts classes, Badminton, soccer and table tennis.
In a school primarily staffed by Catholic Staff, with Protestant management. A primarily catholic intake at that time - and kids not getting places as there were too many catholics. Quite a few Protestant families complaining about the lack of Gaelic/Irish as they wanted there kids to experience something they felt they couldn't get elsewhere and also quite a few protestant families complaining when a teacher wore a gaelic top to a sponsored walk fund raiser.
The quality of education was also not what either the state or catholic schools (primary schools) as hardly anyone sat or had the ability to sit the transfer test.
No-one was happy with the level of integration, or lack thereof, in the integrated school I have experience of.

From what I have seen of it, Integrated education will only work if the management, staff and families who send their kids to these schools live and breath and integrated ethos. Staff, IMO, integrated schools are only there as they couldn't get a job in a school from their respective tradition. In many cases, kids in the schools are the same, though, there is a sizeable number of mixed marriages with kids in integrated schools.

I know I've gone on a bit of a rant there on Integrated Education, but it galls me to hear so much spouted about the virtues of Integrated Education when the realities don't really live up to the expectations.
Can't believe you could get so irked about a  spot of badmington and table tennis!  Surely the main virtue of integrated is that young people are being educated together from an early age, building life long friendships and realising that the folk from the other "community" don't have two heads.

Good point.  Clearly he has an issue with Badminton and Table Tennis.

In fact, you know what would be a good idea.  We should ignore everything else he has said and focus on his irrational hatred for these sports.

::)
The sports young people play at school is not the be all and end all.  I was merely pointing out that sharing a classroom from an early age with people from a different background is the main benefit of integrated education.


Please drop the pretence that you were being genuine.  Below is the list of issues he had with the school.  You said it was 'badmington' and tennis.

No Irish history

No Irish language

No Gaelic Games

Protestant families complaining about the lack of Gaelic/Irish as they wanted there kids to experience something they felt they couldn't get elsewhere

Kids not getting places as there were too many catholics

Protestant families complaining when a teacher wore a gaelic top to a sponsored walk fund raiser

The quality of education was not what either the state or catholic schools (primary schools) provided

Hardly anyone sat or had the ability to sit the transfer test

No-one was happy with the level of integration
Do you think that the list above is representative of all integrated schools?  The point that I made (twice) is that there is huge benefit in young people in this country being educated together.  Not sure why you would accuse of me of not being genuine in making the fairly obvious point above.   

Three reasons;

You started your post with a snide remark.

You didn't acknowledge any of the genuine points he had brought up and attempted to belittle the concerns

He literally started his post by saying that integrated education was a fantastic idea (which I also happen to agree with), so not sure why a genuine person would have felt the need to agree (twice) but in a curiously confrontational manner.

Cheers
Great stuff. At least we are all in agreement.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Franko on December 18, 2019, 11:19:30 PM
Apology accepted.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: thewobbler on December 18, 2019, 11:45:51 PM
For the life of me I'll never understand how standards of education can be evaluated actress countries.

Do we wait 5 / 10 / 15 / 20 years and see if there has been an economic impact?

Do we take a s sample and measure IQs before and after education?

Do we take a sample just before university and ask them if they're happy? Surely we can't ask them anything else as they can't compare it with anything else?

Do we ask the teachers? But surely their opinions are influenced entirely by either the socio-economic make-up of their catchment area, and b) whether their salary can attain a satisfactory standard of living close to their workplace?

Or maybe we just look at Twitter and see who's making the most noise in either direction?

——

I just can't help believing that the assessors/researchers, regardless of their pedagogical background, are more likely to observe/manufacture improvements when reviewing unusual educational structures.

Basically, bias.


Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: michaelg on December 19, 2019, 07:32:59 AM
Quote from: Franko on December 18, 2019, 11:19:30 PM
Apology accepted.
Someone was up late for a school night.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: thewobbler on December 19, 2019, 08:18:23 AM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on December 19, 2019, 12:46:01 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on December 18, 2019, 11:45:51 PM
For the life of me I'll never understand how standards of education can be evaluated actress countries.

Wobbler, just because yourself and probably quite a few other people can't understand how it can be evaluated doesn't mean that no one can.


Basically, experts.

(P.S. No, I'm not one)

Fionn. I've got very little expertise in anything in this world, but I can generally accept, and understand comparison tables across subjects.

That some experts have "proved" to other experts that they can measure the immeasurable just doesn't sit well with me. I believe it's a method for delivering educated bias rather than a comparison system.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Franko on December 19, 2019, 09:02:21 AM
Quote from: michaelg on December 19, 2019, 07:32:59 AM
Quote from: Franko on December 18, 2019, 11:19:30 PM
Apology accepted.
Someone was up late for a school night.

Weak.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 19, 2019, 09:04:23 AM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on December 18, 2019, 11:19:57 PM
Repeated PISA assessments over the years haven't shown NI students to be well ahead of their counterparts south of the border or over in Britain - England in particular.

The the PISA assessments are consistently out of kilter with results. NI is significantly ahead of England in most metrics.

If your assertion is true - then it serves to undermine either the Key Stage 4 & Key Stage 5 exam system or the PISA assessments.


GCSE
https://www.naht.org.uk/news-and-opinion/news/curriculum-and-assessment-news/2019-gcse-results-statistics-england-wales-and-northern-ireland/

20.7% results in England were 7/A or better
67.1% of results in England were 4/C or better

30.5% of results in NI were 7/A or better
82.2% of results in NI were 4/C or better.


A-level
https://www.naht.org.uk/news-and-opinion/news/curriculum-and-assessment-news/statistics-published-2019-as-and-a-level-results-england-wales-and-northern-ireland/

25.2% of results in England were A or better
97.5% of results in England were A*-E

30.9% of results in NI were A or better
98.3% of results in NI were A*-E


I don't know about comparisons outside the system (i.e. across Europe) - it becomes a more difficult and less accurate comparison to make.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 19, 2019, 09:07:20 AM
Quote from: five points on December 18, 2019, 06:24:02 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 18, 2019, 04:59:39 PM
Quote from: five points on December 18, 2019, 03:03:22 PM
Over many decades I have seen enough government and govt agency studies to be very suspicious of what they conclude and advise.

Have you been able to conclude that the presence of a motorway has reduced the journey time from Dublin to Belfast to less than 2 hours rather than 5?

Or are you suspicious of your watch?

If those are the best analogies you can come up with, you don't know the meaning of the word.

If you want to believe every bit of self-serving balderdash you read in an official report, that ain't my problem.

I suspect it is not myself that has the problem.

Are you denying the existence of the motorway network?
Or are you denying that they are of great help to the country?
Or are you denying the EU was deeply involved in the construction of the motorways?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on December 19, 2019, 10:44:29 AM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 19, 2019, 09:07:20 AM
Quote from: five points on December 18, 2019, 06:24:02 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 18, 2019, 04:59:39 PM
Quote from: five points on December 18, 2019, 03:03:22 PM
Over many decades I have seen enough government and govt agency studies to be very suspicious of what they conclude and advise.

Have you been able to conclude that the presence of a motorway has reduced the journey time from Dublin to Belfast to less than 2 hours rather than 5?

Or are you suspicious of your watch?

If those are the best analogies you can come up with, you don't know the meaning of the word.

If you want to believe every bit of self-serving balderdash you read in an official report, that ain't my problem.

I suspect it is not myself that has the problem.

Are you denying the existence of the motorway network?
Or are you denying that they are of great help to the country?
Or are you denying the EU was deeply involved in the construction of the motorways?


Yes I'm denying no. 3. 

Most of the motorway network was built in the past 15 years with very little help from the EU. "Free" EU money for Irish motorways more or less dried up in 2002.  The later funding for recent motorway projects was done on the basis that we'd soon be a net contributor so in effect we were spending our own money via a middleman.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/brakes-go-on-eu-money-for-motorway-projects-1.1103127
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 19, 2019, 11:35:34 AM
So of the contributions to motorways between 1994 and 2006, the funding breakdown was approximately:

EU: 19%
Govt: 67
Private: 14%

~20% of contribution is not deeply involved?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: armaghniac on December 19, 2019, 11:37:21 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on December 18, 2019, 11:45:51 PM
For the life of me I'll never understand how standards of education can be evaluated actress countries.

Do we wait 5 / 10 / 15 / 20 years and see if there has been an economic impact?

Do we take a s sample and measure IQs before and after education?

Do we take a sample just before university and ask them if they're happy? Surely we can't ask them anything else as they can't compare it with anything else?

Do we ask the teachers? But surely their opinions are influenced entirely by either the socio-economic make-up of their catchment area, and b) whether their salary can attain a satisfactory standard of living close to their workplace?

Or maybe we just look at Twitter and see who's making the most noise in either direction?

——

I just can't help believing that the assessors/researchers, regardless of their pedagogical background, are more likely to observe/manufacture improvements when reviewing unusual educational structures.

Basically, bias.

I don't see why it is impossible to measure whether people can read and do maths.
There is a broader education agenda, and this might be harder to measure.

Quote from: five points on December 19, 2019, 10:44:29 AM

Yes I'm denying no. 3. 

Most of the motorway network was built in the past 15 years with very little help from the EU. "Free" EU money for Irish motorways more or less dried up in 2002.  The later funding for recent motorway projects was done on the basis that we'd soon be a net contributor so in effect we were spending our own money via a middleman.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/brakes-go-on-eu-money-for-motorway-projects-1.1103127

You are both right, the EU money was very helpful for the most needed motorways, while the later expanded programme was mainly funded from Irish sources.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: tbrick18 on December 19, 2019, 01:40:56 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 18, 2019, 06:02:44 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on December 18, 2019, 10:29:53 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 17, 2019, 04:46:48 PM
My response to the old "integrated education is not a panacea" trope is as follows:

Segregated education is not a panacea either.

If integrated schools are providing lower quality education then that's an argument for giving them more funding so they can attract better management and better teachers. The work they do is too important to be relegated to the bottom of the priority list. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't CCMS schools funded partly by the state? If that's the case then it represents a large transfer of public money to a private institution to further its private goals of brainwashing children into a particular belief system, as well as deepening divisions. Utter madness.

You can't take down the peace walls until kids go to school together.

Another old cop-out I used to hear all the time was that CCMS schools "teach children to respect people of different faiths." What a load of cobblers. The ones lobbing petrol bombs in Kilwilkee over the years all went to CCMS schools. Respect for people is not something you learn in lessons from a book. You learn it between lessons. In the corridors. In the playground. Waiting for the school bus. On the school bus. In the cafeteria. You build relationships and grow up together with people from diverse backgrounds, that's where you learn the most, not by listening to some nun droning on for half an hour about how we should be nice to them "up to no good" protestants.

That's a very narrow view, in my opinion. Respect for people has to be taught at home, school shouldn't bear the full responsibility. You reference Kilwilkee in a way that almost suggests the CCMS schools were responsible, I'd argue that it was more likely the responsibility lay with the parents and families who were probably out doing the same thing.
Were I grew up was a rural area and I attended a CCMS school. In that area it was predominantly Catholic, but there was a sizeable Protestant minority. In my memory, I never once remember any issues between the two communities. Farming was the priority, not politics. Farmers of one persuasion regularly helped farmers of the other persuasion, and still do. In fact, a cross community group was set up and did a lot for the area.
Integrated education is an ideal. It cannot work without the same ethos being applied in the homes of staff and students.

CCMS do get funding from the education authority, but so does the Integrated sector through NICIE, and the Irish Medium schools through an organisation that I can't remember the name of.
In terms of setup, there may not be much difference between the two (though I'm no expert here).

In terms of attracting higher quality staff by giving them more funding....that's not possible. As all teachers and Principles here are civil servants and get paid on a scale. The same scale across all schools. The only way it can be increased is by government, and if its increased for one sector its increased to all.
One of the big issues I've seen in staffing in integrated schools is that once in the integrated system, it is very difficult for a teacher to gain employment in CCMS or state schools at a later point. Not impossible, but certainly there seems to be very few teachers moving out of the integrated sector.

This reminds me of conservative arguments against sex education in schools. "It should be taught in the home!" they say. Great. What if it's not taught in the home?  In that case if it's not taught in the schools then it's not taught at all. Same goes for respect for people from different backgrounds.

The segregation of society in the north is hardly the poster child for community relations. Segregated education has been a failure. It's long past time to move on past it.

That's not what I said. I said full responsibility shouldn't lie with a school. It needs to start at home for any hope of the integrated school to have a chance of having an impact on the child.
Completely different argument than sex education, where I agree it 100% should be taught in schools.  But as far as I'm aware there are no sex education education sectors. I'd also doubt very much that kids will get a conflicting view of sex Ed at home than they would in school.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: tbrick18 on December 19, 2019, 01:46:25 PM
Quote from: five points on December 18, 2019, 06:24:02 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 18, 2019, 04:59:39 PM
Quote from: five points on December 18, 2019, 03:03:22 PM
Over many decades I have seen enough government and govt agency studies to be very suspicious of what they conclude and advise.

Have you been able to conclude that the presence of a motorway has reduced the journey time from Dublin to Belfast to less than 2 hours rather than 5?

Or are you suspicious of your watch?

If those are the best analogies you can come up with, you don't know the meaning of the word.

If you want to believe every bit of self-serving balderdash you read in an official report, that ain't my problem.

The point is that both Independant and government studies have said we will be considerably worse off after studying the data available.
Whereas the tory government have a vague notion of brexit being good for everyone.

If we can't be guided in our opinions by multiple studies by different bodies coming up with broadly the same analysis then we probably shouldn't take medical advice or sail off on a ship for fear of sailing off tne edge of the earth. Lol.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 21, 2019, 10:15:32 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on December 18, 2019, 03:35:54 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 18, 2019, 02:39:49 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on December 18, 2019, 12:18:50 PM
It's easy to forget that there was a point in time when only for the catholic education sector catholics in NI would not have been educated and they weren't fully funded to the 70's.

An interesting point of history but of zero relevance to how best to educate and look after our society today
Not saying that but in the midst of all the criticism on here re that sector we need to remember that was it not for it many like myself would never have been able to go to University.

An interesting point of history but of zero relevance to how best to educate and look after our society today
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on December 21, 2019, 10:56:21 AM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 18, 2019, 04:56:39 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 18, 2019, 02:36:20 PM
Splitting classes based on ability can work. Matching the pace of work to the ability of the child in the subject can work. Name 1 outright grammar school that does either?

They don't necessarily have to as the 11+ has already done much of the splitting for them.

Remove the 11+ and suddenly you are faced with a much wider gap between top and bottom within the one class. With the result that many at the upper end will be slowed to a speed nearer the slowest in the "herd".

So what do the Grammar schools do with a kid who isn't so good at say languages or science? What speed are they taught at in those subjects?

All ability classes are an alternative but there are other alternatives - ongoing streaming (i.e. comprehensive education) which can stream kids at different levels in different subjects according to their academic ability. I would be very interested in the basis on which you build your seeming claim that the best way to run education is to 1 exam aged 10/11 and stick them in different buildings, never the twain shall meet and plough on with the "pass" kids at a single speed in all subjects. Your overly simplistic approach to this comes across as dogmatic wrongheadedness. 

Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 18, 2019, 04:56:39 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 18, 2019, 02:36:20 PM
In the global economy what skills does NI need to compete? Do grammar schools provide these skills?

Are you f**king serious?

I suppose all those engineering jobs in Bombardier or those IT jobs are given to folks that can't add.

You aren't fit for an engineer degree if you cannot tackle sums.

I am going to give the benefit of the non inconsiderable doubt here. I do not think you posted that because you believe it. However you justified it to yourself it is easily dismissed as at best inane and otherwise ignorant drivel.   

the idea that non-grammar school can't do sums or that the 11+ is the barometer of what would make a good employee of Bombardier is complete nonsense.

Your failure to address the point of what skills the modern economy requires and whether the grammar school best delivers these skills could be described as complete and utter.


Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 18, 2019, 04:56:39 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 18, 2019, 02:36:20 PM
Outline the benefits as you see them of doing a single exam at 10 years old, hinging everything on the result

Everything doesn't hinge on the result. They still have the opportunity to do their GCSEs and A-levels.

If you believe everything hinges on the result then you are acknowledging that the presence of stupider kids in the same class slows the development of said smarter kid.

You are outlining the supposed benefits of  grammar school education. That system is predicated on a singe exam aged 10/11. For the grammar system to work that exam and its results have to be right. So how does it cope with late development for example? What does it do for great music student? what does it do for the great linguist who does get the maths bit? What des it do for the great future scientist who struggles with the language bit?

Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 18, 2019, 04:56:39 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 18, 2019, 02:36:20 PM
and putting the child in school A where they are taught at a "grammar pace" but don't have the ability at say 15 of the kid that didn't do the test or didn't perform to their ability in it or was sick on the day but then exhibited or developed the ability after the age of 10?

You railing against the performance of kids within secondary schools is acknowledging the impact that a slower pace of lesson has on said kid.
What is happening here is that you are failing to address the point

Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 18, 2019, 04:56:39 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 18, 2019, 02:36:20 PM
Are you saying that you have thought about it and cannot think of a better system that grammar schools?

If I had my way - it would be quite a substantial departure from now - which is not realistic as no-one in charge wants to grasp the nettle.

I would suggest breaking up second level education into lower and upper schools - and have them exclusively deal within each age band (separated sites).

Lower runs from 12-14 years old (inclusive) - key stage 3 essentially. The number of kids within each year of the school (given that it is only 3 years) is large enough to allow effective streamlining and preserving a high pace for the smarter children.  i.e. you might have 8-10 classes per year.

Upper "school" runs from 15-18 - and is not purely academic.
Those that are more practical than academic would go to technical colleges (where they would do a few GCSEs, including maths & english alongside more practical subjects - i.e. plumbing/sparking/etc)
Those that are more academic than practical would go to a more conventional school, where they would sit a high number of GCSEs & then on to A-levels.

So there would be no 11+, there is sufficient pacing given to lessons across the ability range of children - and kids aren't wasting their time at 15-16 years old doing stuff they have no interest in or need to know.
What is this based on? Genuine question and open to examining the response.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on January 09, 2020, 11:19:57 PM
Looks like a deal has been brokered that could see Stormont back up and functioning by tomorrow. Seems to be plenty of financial support in the deal and if parties reject this I think they will have major questions to answer.

Bad day for Jamie Bryson. Irish Sea border approved in Westminster, Irish Language commissioner proposed as part of Stormont deal and Wolfe Tones number 1 in the UK charts!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Snapchap on January 10, 2020, 12:00:29 AM
Quote from: trailer on December 17, 2019, 11:27:19 AM
Quote from: Snapchap on December 16, 2019, 11:01:57 PM
Quote from: trailer on December 16, 2019, 10:05:41 PM
f**k it. Lets just keep on going the way we always have then ram unification down everyones throats in a take it or leave it 50+1 vote. It'll be grand.

In other words, lets ram it down people's throat by sticking to the very guidelines set out in the GFA that those same people voted overwhelmingly in favour of?

So what % do you suggest it should be for a vote in favour of reunification to be valid? Or to put that another way, exactly how much more valuable is a unionist's vote be over a nationalist's vote, in your eyes?

It's about uniting a people not a land. Come back to me when you wake up to that realisation.

Missed this reply. Tell me trailer, do you think you could answer my questions with specifics, rather than avoiding them entirely in favour of trotting out a cliched soundbite? If 51%+1 shouldn't be enough to carry a vote on reunification, then what percentage should it have to be? i.e. How much more valuable should a unionist's vote be over that of a nationalist's?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on January 10, 2020, 12:01:32 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on January 09, 2020, 11:19:57 PM
Looks like a deal has been brokered that could see Stormont back up and functioning by tomorrow. Seems to be plenty of financial support in the deal and if parties reject this I think they will have major questions to answer.

Bad day for Jamie Bryson. Irish Sea border approved in Westminster, Irish Language commissioner proposed as part of Stormont deal and Wolfe Tones number 1 in the UK charts!

It's like Jamie's worst nightmare!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on January 10, 2020, 07:45:38 AM
I would say an Irish Language commissioner will have as much clout as I do, will be interesting to see how things go when they get back in, can they effectively govern. They have plenty to be getting on with
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on January 10, 2020, 09:21:23 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on January 10, 2020, 07:45:38 AM
I would say an Irish Language commissioner will have as much clout as I do, will be interesting to see how things go when they get back in, can they effectively govern. They have plenty to be getting on with

They're not back in yet. Stephen Nolan has cut short his holiday to stoke things up enough and gives the fringes enough oxygen to help try and kill the deal.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Applesisapples on January 10, 2020, 09:32:04 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on January 10, 2020, 09:21:23 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on January 10, 2020, 07:45:38 AM
I would say an Irish Language commissioner will have as much clout as I do, will be interesting to see how things go when they get back in, can they effectively govern. They have plenty to be getting on with

They're not back in yet. Stephen Nolan has cut short his holiday to stoke things up enough and gives the fringes enough oxygen to help try and kill the deal.
Dondaldson making life difficult for SF. How can they sell this as anything other than bowing the knee to the DUP.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on January 10, 2020, 10:14:24 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 10, 2020, 09:32:04 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on January 10, 2020, 09:21:23 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on January 10, 2020, 07:45:38 AM
I would say an Irish Language commissioner will have as much clout as I do, will be interesting to see how things go when they get back in, can they effectively govern. They have plenty to be getting on with

They're not back in yet. Stephen Nolan has cut short his holiday to stoke things up enough and gives the fringes enough oxygen to help try and kill the deal.
Dondaldson making life difficult for SF. How can they sell this as anything other than bowing the knee to the DUP.

Really ? Most commentators I have seen I've said SF have got the majority of what they wanted
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Applesisapples on January 10, 2020, 10:17:48 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on January 10, 2020, 10:14:24 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 10, 2020, 09:32:04 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on January 10, 2020, 09:21:23 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on January 10, 2020, 07:45:38 AM
I would say an Irish Language commissioner will have as much clout as I do, will be interesting to see how things go when they get back in, can they effectively govern. They have plenty to be getting on with

They're not back in yet. Stephen Nolan has cut short his holiday to stoke things up enough and gives the fringes enough oxygen to help try and kill the deal.
Dondaldson making life difficult for SF. How can they sell this as anything other than bowing the knee to the DUP.

Really ? Most commentators I have seen I've said SF have got the majority of what they wanted
Dondaldson on Nolan, nothing can be done on Irish language without agreement from First and First Minister...a veto... Oh and more promotion of British Culture, coz you know there is no expression of the currently!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Pub Bore on January 10, 2020, 10:31:51 AM
DUP c**k-a-hoop.  Irish Language Commissioner with as much power as a parish committee chair.  DUP veto.  PoC back virtually intact. SF eyes wiped again.  They'll sign up as there's an election coming in the South and they can't go in to that as wreckers of Stormont.  The whole shebang will come tumbling down again at some stage in the future.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on January 10, 2020, 10:42:47 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 21, 2019, 10:56:21 AM
All ability classes are an alternative but there are other alternatives - ongoing streaming (i.e. comprehensive education) which can stream kids at different levels in different subjects according to their academic ability.

I don't have time right now for a detailed reply - but you are advocating the comprehensive system which has already been shown in multiple comparisons* across a long time scale to the 11+/grammar system to be delivering lower grades. If that is not "dogmatic wrongheadedness" I don't know what is.

*about as good a comparison as you will get.


As for what the postulation at the end was based on - nothing much beyond instinct and I suppose some limited knowledge of how the systems work (or don't work). You have kids sitting in school wasting their time (and sometimes everyone else's time) doing subjects for which they have neither the need or aptitude. That time could be better spent having them in areas of interest and usefulness.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RedHand88 on January 10, 2020, 01:05:58 PM
Quote from: Pub Bore on January 10, 2020, 10:31:51 AM
DUP c**k-a-hoop.  Irish Language Commissioner with as much power as a parish committee chair.  DUP veto.  PoC back virtually intact. SF eyes wiped again.  They'll sign up as there's an election coming in the South and they can't go in to that as wreckers of Stormont.  The whole shebang will come tumbling down again at some stage in the future.

Brian feeney and Newton Emerson, two very respected political pundits disagree with pretty much everything you just said.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Applesisapples on January 10, 2020, 01:48:25 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on January 10, 2020, 01:05:58 PM
Quote from: Pub Bore on January 10, 2020, 10:31:51 AM
DUP c**k-a-hoop.  Irish Language Commissioner with as much power as a parish committee chair.  DUP veto.  PoC back virtually intact. SF eyes wiped again.  They'll sign up as there's an election coming in the South and they can't go in to that as wreckers of Stormont.  The whole shebang will come tumbling down again at some stage in the future.

Brian feeney and Newton Emerson, two very respected political pundits disagree with pretty much everything you just said.

Newton I take with a pinch of salt, Brian I respect and broadly agree with most of his analysis, and he is right about Jeffery. my point was that Wee Jeff was making it hard for SF to sign up. If it turns out the DUP have changed or don't veto Irish interests then happy days. But history tells a different story. Irishness should be on par with Britishness but that still is not the case.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on January 11, 2020, 02:01:04 PM
So the SF DUP carve up begins immediately, DUP will vote for Alex Maskey as speaker
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on January 11, 2020, 03:32:18 PM
Arlene Foster nominates Diane Dodds for Minister of the Department of the Economy.

Anything available for Nigelín?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on January 11, 2020, 03:58:15 PM
Department for Health the second last pick, says it all, the old firm didn't fancy it
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: bennydorano on January 12, 2020, 08:11:23 AM
Tony Blair on Labour & Leadership

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/11/labour-task-not-make-itself-feel-better-its-about-winning?__twitter_impression=true
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Applesisapples on January 13, 2020, 09:53:15 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on January 11, 2020, 03:58:15 PM
Department for Health the second last pick, says it all, the old firm didn't fancy it
SDLP for all their bleating avoided it like the plague. Also can't help but wonder why the Shinners had their feet held to the fire on Irish and the SDLP didn't.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 13, 2020, 10:24:15 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 13, 2020, 09:53:15 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on January 11, 2020, 03:58:15 PM
Department for Health the second last pick, says it all, the old firm didn't fancy it
SDLP for all their bleating avoided it like the plague. Also can't help but wonder why the Shinners had their feet held to the fire on Irish and the SDLP didn't.

Because as the largest nationalist party they held the power on the decisions. Patsy McGlone should have been speaker's job(as the best gaeilgeoir in assembly) instead of that handbag stealer Maskey.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: JohnDenver on January 13, 2020, 10:51:21 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 13, 2020, 10:24:15 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 13, 2020, 09:53:15 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on January 11, 2020, 03:58:15 PM
Department for Health the second last pick, says it all, the old firm didn't fancy it
SDLP for all their bleating avoided it like the plague. Also can't help but wonder why the Shinners had their feet held to the fire on Irish and the SDLP didn't.

Because as the largest nationalist party they held the power on the decisions. Patsy McGlone should have been speaker's job(as the best gaeilgeoir in assembly) instead of that handbag stealer Maskey.

Do proceed to provide any evidence to backup this claim?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Applesisapples on January 13, 2020, 11:17:21 AM
Quote from: JohnDenver on January 13, 2020, 10:51:21 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 13, 2020, 10:24:15 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 13, 2020, 09:53:15 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on January 11, 2020, 03:58:15 PM
Department for Health the second last pick, says it all, the old firm didn't fancy it
SDLP for all their bleating avoided it like the plague. Also can't help but wonder why the Shinners had their feet held to the fire on Irish and the SDLP didn't.

Because as the largest nationalist party they held the power on the decisions. Patsy McGlone should have been speaker's job(as the best gaeilgeoir in assembly) instead of that handbag stealer Maskey.

Do proceed to provide any evidence to backup this claim?

Naomi Long has just said that there was no agreement as Eastwood has claimed. Much as I want to have an alternative to SF on the nationalist side this constant taking of positions just to get at SF e.g. we should go back now (no mention of Irish etc) as opposed to articulating a policy that actually puts pressure on SF to deliver is a turn off. It smacks of Trumpian politics of making statements with little correlation to the truth. That said I personally wouldn't have chosen Maskey but it is SF's right to do so. Naomi Long was complimentary in relation to his ability to do the job. Much as I want to see Irish promoted I don't believe that a lack of fluency should preclude you from any role.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 13, 2020, 11:53:23 AM
Quote from: JohnDenver on January 13, 2020, 10:51:21 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 13, 2020, 10:24:15 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 13, 2020, 09:53:15 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on January 11, 2020, 03:58:15 PM
Department for Health the second last pick, says it all, the old firm didn't fancy it
SDLP for all their bleating avoided it like the plague. Also can't help but wonder why the Shinners had their feet held to the fire on Irish and the SDLP didn't.

Because as the largest nationalist party they held the power on the decisions. Patsy McGlone should have been speaker's job(as the best gaeilgeoir in assembly) instead of that handbag stealer Maskey.

Do proceed to provide any evidence to backup this claim?

Yeah its well known, he is first class. The only other fluent speaker is Maolisa McHugh. After that you have Mark H Durkan who is not bad and I think Kearney has a wee bit. Patsy is top notch though with a real grá for the language
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 13, 2020, 12:01:14 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 13, 2020, 11:17:21 AM
Quote from: JohnDenver on January 13, 2020, 10:51:21 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 13, 2020, 10:24:15 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 13, 2020, 09:53:15 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on January 11, 2020, 03:58:15 PM
Department for Health the second last pick, says it all, the old firm didn't fancy it
SDLP for all their bleating avoided it like the plague. Also can't help but wonder why the Shinners had their feet held to the fire on Irish and the SDLP didn't.

Because as the largest nationalist party they held the power on the decisions. Patsy McGlone should have been speaker's job(as the best gaeilgeoir in assembly) instead of that handbag stealer Maskey.

Do proceed to provide any evidence to backup this claim?

Naomi Long has just said that there was no agreement as Eastwood has claimed. Much as I want to have an alternative to SF on the nationalist side this constant taking of positions just to get at SF e.g. we should go back now (no mention of Irish etc) as opposed to articulating a policy that actually puts pressure on SF to deliver is a turn off. It smacks of Trumpian politics of making statements with little correlation to the truth. That said I personally wouldn't have chosen Maskey but it is SF's right to do so. Naomi Long was complimentary in relation to his ability to do the job. Much as I want to see Irish promoted I don't believe that a lack of fluency should preclude you from any role.

This is one of the things that SF have been doing for years. I have been calling for SF to get back, I just wonder what was it all about when we haven't got any of the concessions we set out to get 3 years ago. I hopefully can be corrected on this



It should not but I thought it was a golden opportunity in the light of the last 3 years, to actually promote the spoken tongue in a very practical and public manner.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on January 13, 2020, 05:07:27 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 13, 2020, 12:01:14 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 13, 2020, 11:17:21 AM
Quote from: JohnDenver on January 13, 2020, 10:51:21 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 13, 2020, 10:24:15 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 13, 2020, 09:53:15 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on January 11, 2020, 03:58:15 PM
Department for Health the second last pick, says it all, the old firm didn't fancy it
SDLP for all their bleating avoided it like the plague. Also can't help but wonder why the Shinners had their feet held to the fire on Irish and the SDLP didn't.

Because as the largest nationalist party they held the power on the decisions. Patsy McGlone should have been speaker's job(as the best gaeilgeoir in assembly) instead of that handbag stealer Maskey.

Do proceed to provide any evidence to backup this claim?

Naomi Long has just said that there was no agreement as Eastwood has claimed. Much as I want to have an alternative to SF on the nationalist side this constant taking of positions just to get at SF e.g. we should go back now (no mention of Irish etc) as opposed to articulating a policy that actually puts pressure on SF to deliver is a turn off. It smacks of Trumpian politics of making statements with little correlation to the truth. That said I personally wouldn't have chosen Maskey but it is SF's right to do so. Naomi Long was complimentary in relation to his ability to do the job. Much as I want to see Irish promoted I don't believe that a lack of fluency should preclude you from any role.

This is one of the things that SF have been doing for years. I have been calling for SF to get back, I just wonder what was it all about when we haven't got any of the concessions we set out to get 3 years ago. I hopefully can be corrected on this



It should not but I thought it was a golden opportunity in the light of the last 3 years, to actually promote the spoken tongue in a very practical and public manner.

Agreed
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on January 13, 2020, 05:25:14 PM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/01/13/anti-semitism-election-row-stoked-israel-labour-report-says/
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: bennydorano on December 16, 2021, 03:31:31 PM
Significant by election in North Shropshire today, an extremely safe Tory seat under threat from the Liberals. Labour's participation will likely save Bojo tho.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Armagh18 on December 16, 2021, 04:01:55 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 16, 2021, 03:31:31 PM
Significant by election in North Shropshire today, an extremely safe Tory seat under threat from the Liberals. Labour's participation will likely save Bojo tho.
Only another 500 or so seats needed then? Lol
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: maddog on December 16, 2021, 04:06:23 PM
Bookies has Tories and Libs roughly same price this morning. If the Tories lose it i guess the significance is in the talk that the letters will be allowed into the 1922 committee, which could result in vote of no confidence. In one way Labour might prefer Worzel stays there as Sunak/Gove or dare i say it Truss might be hard beat at an election.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: bennydorano on December 16, 2021, 04:13:53 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on December 16, 2021, 04:01:55 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 16, 2021, 03:31:31 PM
Significant by election in North Shropshire today, an extremely safe Tory seat under threat from the Liberals. Labour's participation will likely save Bojo tho.
Only another 500 or so seats needed then? Lol
If they lose Bojo is toast.

Quote from: maddog on December 16, 2021, 04:06:23 PM
Bookies has Tories and Libs roughly same price this morning. If the Tories lose it i guess the significance is in the talk that the letters will be allowed into the 1922 committee, which could result in vote of no confidence. In one way Labour might prefer Worzel stays there as Sunak/Gove or dare i say it Truss might be hard beat at an election.
Tories will go into meltdown mode if they lose, with the right wing already going bonkers over Covid all bets are off, anything could happen.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: maddog on December 16, 2021, 04:35:23 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 16, 2021, 04:13:53 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on December 16, 2021, 04:01:55 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 16, 2021, 03:31:31 PM
Significant by election in North Shropshire today, an extremely safe Tory seat under threat from the Liberals. Labour's participation will likely save Bojo tho.
Only another 500 or so seats needed then? Lol
If they lose Bojo is toast.

Quote from: maddog on December 16, 2021, 04:06:23 PM
Bookies has Tories and Libs roughly same price this morning. If the Tories lose it i guess the significance is in the talk that the letters will be allowed into the 1922 committee, which could result in vote of no confidence. In one way Labour might prefer Worzel stays there as Sunak/Gove or dare i say it Truss might be hard beat at an election.
Tories will go into meltdown mode if they lose, with the right wing already going bonkers over Covid all bets are off, anything could happen.

Interesting that the right wing media started to turn couple of months ago. Guess it was always the plan, get Brexit "done" and then get someone else in.
I remember when Major was in thinking the Tories couldnt get any worse.  ;D
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: screenexile on December 17, 2021, 03:49:21 AM
Boris is toast!!!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on December 17, 2021, 07:21:46 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 17, 2021, 03:49:21 AM
Boris is toast!!!

It'll be good to see the chunt squirm anyway.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on December 17, 2021, 07:38:01 AM
I will believe it when I see it. The Tory wagons do seem to be circling mind you.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: tiempo on December 17, 2021, 09:26:41 AM
There won't be a Llama milked in Market Drayton this weekend
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on December 17, 2021, 10:16:02 AM
Quote from: tiempo on December 17, 2021, 09:26:41 AM
There won't be a Llama milked in Market Drayton this weekend

A very safe Tory seat of 23K majority in the last election to losing by 6K votes, that's some swing..

By Elections are traditionally a time when various governments get a bit of a bloody nose but that is something else.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Armagh18 on December 17, 2021, 10:17:08 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on December 17, 2021, 10:16:02 AM
Quote from: tiempo on December 17, 2021, 09:26:41 AM
There won't be a Llama milked in Market Drayton this weekend

A very safe Tory seat of 23K majority in the last election to losing by 6K votes, that's some swing..

By Elections are traditionally a time when various governments get a bit of a bloody nose but that is something else.
That is some swing alright.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: bigarsedkeeper on December 17, 2021, 10:21:39 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on December 17, 2021, 10:16:02 AM
Quote from: tiempo on December 17, 2021, 09:26:41 AM
There won't be a Llama milked in Market Drayton this weekend

A very safe Tory seat of 23K majority in the last election to losing by 6K votes, that's some swing..

By Elections are traditionally a time when various governments get a bit of a bloody nose but that is something else.

Labour took a hit as well so unless the whole country is going to go lib dem it's hard to see how they will be shifted in a general election
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: armaghniac on December 17, 2021, 10:59:39 AM
Quote from: bigarsedkeeper on December 17, 2021, 10:21:39 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on December 17, 2021, 10:16:02 AM
Quote from: tiempo on December 17, 2021, 09:26:41 AM
There won't be a Llama milked in Market Drayton this weekend

A very safe Tory seat of 23K majority in the last election to losing by 6K votes, that's some swing..

By Elections are traditionally a time when various governments get a bit of a bloody nose but that is something else.

Labour took a hit as well so unless the whole country is going to go lib dem it's hard to see how they will be shifted in a general election

A willingness to tactical vote, i.e. support the candidate most likely to see them out, would shift them in a general election.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Armagh18 on December 17, 2021, 11:11:23 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on December 17, 2021, 10:59:39 AM
Quote from: bigarsedkeeper on December 17, 2021, 10:21:39 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on December 17, 2021, 10:16:02 AM
Quote from: tiempo on December 17, 2021, 09:26:41 AM
There won't be a Llama milked in Market Drayton this weekend

A very safe Tory seat of 23K majority in the last election to losing by 6K votes, that's some swing..

By Elections are traditionally a time when various governments get a bit of a bloody nose but that is something else.

Labour took a hit as well so unless the whole country is going to go lib dem it's hard to see how they will be shifted in a general election

A willingness to tactical vote, i.e. support the candidate most likely to see them out, would shift them in a general election.
Ah now you're asking English people to show a whiff of intelligence? Come on
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: mouview on December 17, 2021, 11:38:25 AM
Labour may prefer to play the longer game in this. For as long as BJ is leader, it's likely Tory support will whittle away. Rather like ABUs with Solskjaer as MU manager, better for them for Johnson to remain in place as a lame duck PM.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Armagh18 on December 17, 2021, 11:41:55 AM
Quote from: mouview on December 17, 2021, 11:38:25 AM
Labour may prefer to play the longer game in this. For as long as BJ is leader, it's likely Tory support will whittle away. Rather like ABUs with Solskjaer as MU manager, better for them for Johnson to remain in place as a lame duck PM.
He can appeal to the ordinary thick Englishman though with his bumbling clown act and fool them into thinking he's one of the lads rather than a Tory snob. Who would replace him that could do that?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: dec on December 17, 2021, 01:38:52 PM
Quote from: mouview on December 17, 2021, 11:38:25 AM
Labour may prefer to play the longer game in this. For as long as BJ is leader, it's likely Tory support will whittle away. Rather like ABUs with Solskjaer as MU manager, better for them for Johnson to remain in place as a lame duck PM.

Boris at the wheel
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: bigarsedkeeper on December 17, 2021, 01:49:39 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on December 17, 2021, 11:41:55 AM
Quote from: mouview on December 17, 2021, 11:38:25 AM
Labour may prefer to play the longer game in this. For as long as BJ is leader, it's likely Tory support will whittle away. Rather like ABUs with Solskjaer as MU manager, better for them for Johnson to remain in place as a lame duck PM.
He can appeal to the ordinary thick Englishman though with his bumbling clown act and fool them into thinking he's one of the lads rather than a Tory snob. Who would replace him that could do that?
Labour's leader at the minute is closer to what you would think of as the typical tory man. Gary Neville has went after the torys more in the last few weeks than starmer has over the last 18 months. With everything going on with Brexit and the handling of Covid he should of never had his boot out of Boris's hole.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Armagh18 on December 17, 2021, 02:13:33 PM
Quote from: bigarsedkeeper on December 17, 2021, 01:49:39 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on December 17, 2021, 11:41:55 AM
Quote from: mouview on December 17, 2021, 11:38:25 AM
Labour may prefer to play the longer game in this. For as long as BJ is leader, it's likely Tory support will whittle away. Rather like ABUs with Solskjaer as MU manager, better for them for Johnson to remain in place as a lame duck PM.
He can appeal to the ordinary thick Englishman though with his bumbling clown act and fool them into thinking he's one of the lads rather than a Tory snob. Who would replace him that could do that?
Labour's leader at the minute is closer to what you would think of as the typical tory man. Gary Neville has went after the torys more in the last few weeks than starmer has over the last 18 months. With everything going on with Brexit and the handling of Covid he should of never had his boot out of Boris's hole.
There's a reason the Tory press haven't hounded him out like they did Corbyn...
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on December 17, 2021, 03:31:09 PM
Quote from: bigarsedkeeper on December 17, 2021, 01:49:39 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on December 17, 2021, 11:41:55 AM
Quote from: mouview on December 17, 2021, 11:38:25 AM
Labour may prefer to play the longer game in this. For as long as BJ is leader, it's likely Tory support will whittle away. Rather like ABUs with Solskjaer as MU manager, better for them for Johnson to remain in place as a lame duck PM.
He can appeal to the ordinary thick Englishman though with his bumbling clown act and fool them into thinking he's one of the lads rather than a Tory snob. Who would replace him that could do that?
Labour's leader at the minute is closer to what you would think of as the typical tory man. Gary Neville has went after the torys more in the last few weeks than starmer has over the last 18 months. With everything going on with Brexit and the handling of Covid he should of never had his boot out of Boris's hole.
HAS GONE
SHOULD HAVE
2 yellow cards for you me lad!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: bennydorano on December 17, 2021, 05:39:25 PM
Starmer is playing the long game and I commend him for it, he's not a big personality but Bojo's cult of personality is on the way out and someone of Starmer's personality (& intellect) is what the UK will be crying out for as the Tories Government of imbeciles bumbles towards the next GE. Sunak coming in is his big danger, Truss would be a gift for him

Read a few good articles today, the most interesting was by Spectator commentator James Forsythe (who didn't know the by election result), he reckoned no one is interested in taking over the current tory shit show mid melt down and a putsch was more likely after the local elections in England in May.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Bord na Mona man on December 17, 2021, 08:59:20 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 17, 2021, 05:39:25 PM
Read a few good articles today, the most interesting was by Spectator commentator James Forsythe (who didn't know the by election result), he reckoned no one is interested in taking over the current tory shit show mid melt down and a putsch was more likely after the local elections in England in May.
There is merit in that argument. Very few of them want to own the Brexit fiasco especially the ones who didn't even support it, or certainly not the hard version they have brought on themselves.

Most Tories are pragmatists and hard nosed business folk who realise the value of single markets and barrier free trade.
On the other hand, part of being a Tory means engaging in flag shagging and jingoistic posturing to impress the gammon voter base.
Blaming Brussels was part of that playbook, though I doubt they expected it to come back to bite them in such a fashion.

The next leader would need to be someone with a super brass neck - willing to keep proclaiming victory and success when all evidence points to the very opposite.
This was no problem to someone who could lie and bluff as easily as Johnson could. Does someone else want to assume that role or should they keep Johnno as Troll-In-Chief.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on December 18, 2021, 07:27:34 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 17, 2021, 05:39:25 PM
Starmer is playing the long game and I commend him for it, he's not a big personality but Bojo's cult of personality is on the way out and someone of Starmer's personality (& intellect) is what the UK will be crying out for as the Tories Government of imbeciles bumbles towards the next GE. Sunak coming in is his big danger, Truss would be a gift for him

Read a few good articles today, the most interesting was by Spectator commentator James Forsythe (who didn't know the by election result), he reckoned no one is interested in taking over the current tory shit show mid melt down and a putsch was more likely after the local elections in England in May.


Forsythe is married to Stratton who Boris threw to the wolves in the hope that the party scandals would go away.
Whilst he might be right, he's got the knives out for Boris...
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on December 19, 2021, 03:52:45 PM
https://www.ft.com/content/3eefa1cb-416e-47d5-8dfb-eb902e4c2953

Lord Gavin Barwell, May's former chief of staff, tweeted: "The tragedy of David Frost and those who think like him is that they can't see that the high tax burden they dislike is in part the result of the hard Brexit they chose."

"You can enjoy an 80-seat majority, including the red wall or you can pursue Singapore-on-Thames. You can't do both for long."