Should An Glenn object?

[Milltown Row2]

Reffing must be bad in Antrim if your the standard! Your old dislike of anything Derry badly rolling through here.

I'm behind Glen getting a replay, I never said anything different. Judging my refereeing is fine, your criticism of it means nothing.

[David McKeown]

Ah Christ of almighty

It's like talking to a door.  A stupid door

They broke the rule that says you can only have a max of 15 players on the field

How they broke it or why they broke it or whose fault it was that they broke it is only relevant in mitigation

And no, I don't think they did it on purpose at all

But they were very careless

I'm not sure I agree with that. Does the doctorine of actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea not apply here. That is to say an act alone does not make a man guilty unless his mind be also guilty.

I think what has to happen is a proper investigation needs to take place. I potentially have a lot of sympathy for all involved but I think the CCCC need as far as possible to conclude exactly what happened here before the appropriate punishment if any can be levied.

That may be difficult to do and it may not depending on the evidence available but there are lots of potential ways this could have arisen. For example and I want to be clear these are hypothetical examples.

The CCCC might have evidence that KC management acted deliberately and chanced their arm in the hope it wouldn't be noticed. In such case a replay is likely the minimum sanction.

Instead they might conclude the KC management did no such thing but the players involved knowing they had been substituted took it upon themselves in which case I think again a replay is the likely minimum sanction.

The CCCC might conclude it was all a big mistake and the player wasn't aware he had been substituted in which case I have considerable sympathy for KC and the players involve and feel that even a fine would be harsh.

Of course the CCCC might reach different conclusions entirely but I think they need to hold an investigation and we need to know the outcome of it first before we can really establish what the best way forward is.

I will also reiterate that this farce once again shows to me the game is now too big, too fast, too important and too professional for one ameatur official or set of officials. I have sympathy for them in the circumstances

[Franko]

Ah Christ of almighty

It's like talking to a door.  A stupid door

They broke the rule that says you can only have a max of 15 players on the field

How they broke it or why they broke it or whose fault it was that they broke it is only relevant in mitigation

And no, I don't think they did it on purpose at all

But they were very careless

So you haven't found the rule?

I've said there is a rule break and there are procedures that a forfeit, fine or replay will be determined by Croke.

You can bleat all you want

You're making a fool of yourself here

They broke Rule 2.1

I paraphrased for you, but evidently I need to spell it out

[whitey]

Should the first order of business for the incoming player not be to tell the guy he's replacing that he's off.

Someone obviously told Mannion he was being replaced because you can see him react to the news (looked surprised)

While it may have been unintentional Dublin teams  have form when it comes to this type of shenanigans.

Costello's against Mayo, throwing 3 keepers tees away (and David Clark sending the resultant kick out over the sideline)

Jason Sherlock's constant "incursions" as Major Foirne we're so outrageous, they actually abolished the role

Let's remove all doubt and replay the game

[Milltown Row2]

Ah Christ of almighty

It's like talking to a door.  A stupid door

They broke the rule that says you can only have a max of 15 players on the field

How they broke it or why they broke it or whose fault it was that they broke it is only relevant in mitigation

And no, I don't think they did it on purpose at all

But they were very careless

So you haven't found the rule?

I've said there is a rule break and there are procedures that a forfeit, fine or replay will be determined by Croke.

You can bleat all you want

You're making a fool of yourself here

They broke Rule 2.1

I paraphrased for you, but evidently I need to spell it out

Aye dead on,

1.7 SUBSTITUTION ZONE.
An area of the sideline, extending 5m. on either side of the centre-line, shall be marked as the Substitution Zone, and all the players coming off/going on to the field of play in acts of substitution/temporary substitution shall go through this point, when given permission by the Referee.

This didn't happen

[Franko]

Ah Christ of almighty

It's like talking to a door.  A stupid door

They broke the rule that says you can only have a max of 15 players on the field

How they broke it or why they broke it or whose fault it was that they broke it is only relevant in mitigation

And no, I don't think they did it on purpose at all

But they were very careless

So you haven't found the rule?

I've said there is a rule break and there are procedures that a forfeit, fine or replay will be determined by Croke.

You can bleat all you want

You're making a fool of yourself here

They broke Rule 2.1

I paraphrased for you, but evidently I need to spell it out

Aye dead on,

1.7 SUBSTITUTION ZONE.
An area of the sideline, extending 5m. on either side of the centre-line, shall be marked as the Substitution Zone, and all the players coming off/going on to the field of play in acts of substitution/temporary substitution shall go through this point, when given permission by the Referee.

This didn't happen

And?

[Milltown Row2]

Ah Christ of almighty

It's like talking to a door.  A stupid door

They broke the rule that says you can only have a max of 15 players on the field

How they broke it or why they broke it or whose fault it was that they broke it is only relevant in mitigation

And no, I don't think they did it on purpose at all

But they were very careless

So you haven't found the rule?

I've said there is a rule break and there are procedures that a forfeit, fine or replay will be determined by Croke.

You can bleat all you want

You're making a fool of yourself here

They broke Rule 2.1

I paraphrased for you, but evidently I need to spell it out

Aye dead on,

1.7 SUBSTITUTION ZONE.
An area of the sideline, extending 5m. on either side of the centre-line, shall be marked as the Substitution Zone, and all the players coming off/going on to the field of play in acts of substitution/temporary substitution shall go through this point, when given permission by the Referee.

This didn't happen

And?

I've looked at your rule 2-1 and states a team shall consist of 15 players...

It doesn't say the onus is on the team to ensure when making a substitution that he has to come off, the rule above states (I've highlighted for you) when given permission by the ref, so the onus is with the officials.

[ONeill]

I haven't read any of this thread, so sorry if it has been mentioned. If Crokes were 12+ points up at the time, what would be the honest consensus on here?

[Franko]

Ah Christ of almighty

It's like talking to a door.  A stupid door

They broke the rule that says you can only have a max of 15 players on the field

How they broke it or why they broke it or whose fault it was that they broke it is only relevant in mitigation

And no, I don't think they did it on purpose at all

But they were very careless

So you haven't found the rule?

I've said there is a rule break and there are procedures that a forfeit, fine or replay will be determined by Croke.

You can bleat all you want

You're making a fool of yourself here

They broke Rule 2.1

I paraphrased for you, but evidently I need to spell it out

Aye dead on,

1.7 SUBSTITUTION ZONE.
An area of the sideline, extending 5m. on either side of the centre-line, shall be marked as the Substitution Zone, and all the players coming off/going on to the field of play in acts of substitution/temporary substitution shall go through this point, when given permission by the Referee.

This didn't happen

And?

I've looked at your rule 2-1 and states a team shall consist of 15 players...

It doesn't say the onus is on the team to ensure when making a substitution that he has to come off, the rule above states (I've highlighted for you) when given permission by the ref, so the onus is with the officials.

And?

Is there a point coming?

[Look-Up!]

Ah Christ of almighty

It's like talking to a door.  A stupid door

They broke the rule that says you can only have a max of 15 players on the field

How they broke it or why they broke it or whose fault it was that they broke it is only relevant in mitigation

And no, I don't think they did it on purpose at all

But they were very careless

So you haven't found the rule?

I've said there is a rule break and there are procedures that a forfeit, fine or replay will be determined by Croke.

You can bleat all you want

You're making a fool of yourself here

They broke Rule 2.1

I paraphrased for you, but evidently I need to spell it out

Aye dead on,

1.7 SUBSTITUTION ZONE.
An area of the sideline, extending 5m. on either side of the centre-line, shall be marked as the Substitution Zone, and all the players coming off/going on to the field of play in acts of substitution/temporary substitution shall go through this point, when given permission by the Referee.

This didn't happen

And?

I've looked at your rule 2-1 and states a team shall consist of 15 players...

It doesn't say the onus is on the team to ensure when making a substitution that he has to come off, the rule above states (I've highlighted for you) when given permission by the ref, so the onus is with the officials.

Don't agree with your interpretation.

If the onus was not on the team, why would there be a provision for punishing a team and team only when rule broken. If referee is fully responsible rule would be obsolete.

Regarding the highlighted bit, substitution process cannot begin until referee gives permission i.e halts play and signals to line. Nothing in that to suggest referee must manage everything or hold hands with he players through this (self managed) zone. I guess there's a certain level of assumption here that players and management know the rules and are responsible adults.

But sure, grey area now. Going forward rule will likely have to be dumbed down to make it fool proof.

[Look-Up!]

I haven't read any of this thread, so sorry if it has been mentioned. If Crokes were 12+ points up at the time, what would be the honest consensus on here?

I doubt anyone would care. If Glenn objected and looked for replay they'd be the laughing stock. I'd imagine GAA would have to go through the process and issue KC minimum fine.

[Gael85]

In Fairness  if it was a Tyrone team in place of Dubs,  we would already have decided that they did it on purpose and  a replay would already be ordered a or the game would be awarded to the opposition

But they definitely would have done it on purpose!

It would have made the decision easier I guess, but the Dubs are no angels  , One all Ireland finished the Dubs one point ahead Mayo , Mayo Goalkeeper trying to kick the ball out and four sets of players grappling on the ground , No remarks past   ""they were all at it "" 

I believe the keepers tee was also thrown into the Hill and the spare ball behind the goal was booted away for good measure

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-20470478.html

Comment at the time was that the ref could have issued 4 Black Cards to the Dubs, but of course he bottled it



(That might have been another game though)

Mad that so many swallow the lies fed by the Mayo and the media!

There was enormous whinging and lies by Mayo and the media over this incident (2017 final).  Maybe to deflect they'd bottled it, or to avoid Lee Keegan getting a ban for the most blatant piece of cheating even seen in an All Ireland final!

Rock had a last gasp free to win the match after the majestic Connolly was fouled for the umpteenth time. Ciaran Kilkenny was to pick up Keegan for the resulting kickout so had his eyes on Keegan when the threw the GPS at Rock (who didn't flinch and calmly slotted over the winning point) so Kilkenny went for Keegan and wrestled him to the ground. That was the only Dublin player who pulled an opposing player on the ground. Despite there being video proof of this (see 1.42.15 of this video), the outright lie that 4 or 5 Dublin players had wrestled opponents to the ground is still is taken as fact and often referred to in analysis (some even praise the Dubs for it as "doing all it takes to win a game" - morons, as the only impact it had was for the Dubs to fack thne kickout with a man less!).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYBFoI-fznE

Costello did throw the kicking tee. But the ref dealt with those two incidents appropriately, black for Kilkenny, yellow for Costello.

So it actually couldn't have worked out worse for the Dubs. Rock took his kick exactly on 76 minutes (there was 6 mins injury time), the initial kickout by Clarke was kicked to an area where there 3 Dubs v 2 Mayo, so Dubs were favs to win it. But the kickout had to be retaken, Dublin were thus a man down, and the ref added on another 3 minutes! (blew up at 78.55 when a Dub would have been clean through on goal). All Clarke had to do was find a Mayo man with his kickout and it's pretty certain that Mayo would have worked a scoring opportunity. But Clarke blazed it over the sideline!!

Anyway, sorry for the digression, but it's a game I love reminiscing about!

100% correct Hound. This story of 2017 is one GAA great myths. Paul Kimmage made up the story at the time. Kilkenny and Costello were disciplined in accordance with the rules.

[PMG1]

For those that are saying the additional player didn't matter, have a look at the last seconds of the semi against Kerin's O'Rahilly's, Kerin's needed a last second goal to win (or maybe it was to equalise), high ball dropped into the box was flicked on and who was on the goal line to catch the ball and prevent the goal, only the boul Mullin.

[Gold]

Penalty was well outside the box.

Totally changed the game yet its lost in all this

As David said the Officials are substandard. They are amateur in a game that is in reality, professional

[naka]

I haven't read any of this thread, so sorry if it has been mentioned. If Crokes were 12+ points up at the time, what would be the honest consensus on here?

If they were 12 points up they wouldn't be rushing two subs on in injury time