http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/gaa-event-cancelled-over-psni-involvement-16150873.html
(http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/gaa-event-cancelled-over-psni-involvement-16150873.html)
A GAA road safety event had to be cancelled when members objected to the involvement of the police.
The 'Live to Play' event in Co Tyrone was called off when some host club members threatened to hold a picket when the PSNI was due to take part in the Ulster Council Scheme.
The scheme was set up following the deaths of a number of road deaths involving GAA members and aims to encourage young players to drive safely.
The road safety drive involves the Fire and Rescue Service and the PSNI and was to take place at the grounds of the Derrydresk GAC near Coalisland on Monday.
The decision to cancel the event comes amid a unprecedented period of close links between the GAA and the police.
The former arch enemies came together publicly last year for the funeral of murdered PSNI officer Ronan Kerr, a member of the Beragh Red Knights.
His coffin had been carried through his home town by a joint cortege of GAA and PSNI members.
A senior GAA officer, Ryan Feeney, is now also an independent member of the Policing Board after being appointed last May.
Derrytresk chairman Barney Campbell confirmed some local people were opposed to the police's involvement at the event.
"As it turned out, the PSNI were coming to it and we were never informed about that and there were a few people in the club not very happy about that we just called it off," he told the Irish News.
Tyrone county board spokesman Damien Harvey said the GAA's decision should be respected: "At the end of the day it's not something Tyrone GAA are forcing on clubs and if clubs take it on then that's good and if they decide it's not for them we have to respect that decision.
"We don't want it make into a political issue," added Mr Harvey.
A spokesman for the Ulster Council said it organises road safety events "in partnership with the NI Fire service, An Garda Siochana, the PSNI and the relevent county committee".
"The club in question request to host a Live to Play education event but have cancelled and are reviewing arrangements."
/Jim.
Sad state of affairs. They should have went ahead with it and let them have their picket.
And the Belfast Telegraph's "former arch enemies" comment is pathetic.
Derrydresk could have done with the good publicity after their riot a few months ago.
This campaign is about saving lives I would not care if the British army was running it.
If it saves one persons life it is well worth the effort and funds The ulster Council and the PSNI have contributed towards this
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on April 28, 2012, 11:11:10 AM
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/gaa-event-cancelled-over-psni-involvement-16150873.html
(http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/gaa-event-cancelled-over-psni-involvement-16150873.html)
A GAA road safety event had to be cancelled when members objected to the involvement of the police.
The 'Live to Play' event in Co Tyrone was called off when some host club members threatened to hold a picket when the PSNI was due to take part in the Ulster Council Scheme.
The scheme was set up following the deaths of a number of road deaths involving GAA members and aims to encourage young players to drive safely.
The road safety drive involves the Fire and Rescue Service and the PSNI and was to take place at the grounds of the Derrydresk GAC near Coalisland on Monday.
The decision to cancel the event comes amid a unprecedented period of close links between the GAA and the police.
The former arch enemies came together publicly last year for the funeral of murdered PSNI officer Ronan Kerr, a member of the Beragh Red Knights.
His coffin had been carried through his home town by a joint cortege of GAA and PSNI members.
A senior GAA officer, Ryan Feeney, is now also an independent member of the Policing Board after being appointed last May.
Derrytresk chairman Barney Campbell confirmed some local people were opposed to the police's involvement at the event.
"As it turned out, the PSNI were coming to it and we were never informed about that and there were a few people in the club not very happy about that we just called it off," he told the Irish News.
Tyrone county board spokesman Damien Harvey said the GAA's decision should be respected: "At the end of the day it's not something Tyrone GAA are forcing on clubs and if clubs take it on then that's good and if they decide it's not for them we have to respect that decision.
"We don't want it make into a political issue," added Mr Harvey.
A spokesman for the Ulster Council said it organises road safety events "in partnership with the NI Fire service, An Garda Siochana, the PSNI and the relevent county committee".
"The club in question request to host a Live to Play education event but have cancelled and are reviewing arrangements."
/Jim.
The Tele now reduced to reporting on the Irish News. ;D
If someone in Derrytresk gets their house burgled,car stolen etc, who do they contact to sort it out ?. The PSNI of course.
But it doesn't mean that people still accept them. Old habits die hard and the memories are maybe just that longer and the people that bit less forgiving ( some of them, not all of them of course as coud be said for most places ) around the Hill, having perhaps suffered more than most. Completely innocent lads were still getting jip from the PSNI even recently.
So some people have moved on - some others have not and it will just take a bit more time and a bit more of the choreography that is the "peace process" to fall into place. But I'm sure those in government have planned for this eventuality and will make the Derrytresk club look like dinosaurs. It's already happening even now.
One could be forgiven for thinking that the GAA who are supposed to be a non political organisation are being used ( knowingly or unknowingly ) as a vehicle to create a sense of normality where both sides in Northern Ireland are being forged together united against the violent men of the past. Apparently it's called politics.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-17873678
The Armagh All-Ireland winning footballer Oisin McConville said the Live to Play events were a "great initiative" but the involvment of the police was still a "very, very sensitive issue". He told BBC Radio Ulster that the club authorities had probably taken the decision in order to avoid any confrontation. Mr McConville said the last thing Derrytresk needed was more controversy.
Oisin gets it about right.
Quote from: AQMP on April 28, 2012, 02:26:10 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-17873678
The Armagh All-Ireland winning footballer Oisin McConville said the Live to Play events were a "great initiative" but the involvment of the police was still a "very, very sensitive issue". He told BBC Radio Ulster that the club authorities had probably taken the decision in order to avoid any confrontation. Mr McConville said the last thing Derrytresk needed was more controversy.
Oisin gets it about right.
Well that strategy has worked a treat.
Involvement of the police, whether some like it or not, is still a very raw issue. A lot rawer than many people living outside rural republican areas realise. I'd imagine a this scheme won't run at a lot of Tyrone clubs for the same reasons. I know I would be far from comfortable with it.
Quote from: Nally Stand on April 28, 2012, 06:22:24 PM
Involvement of the police, whether some like it or not, is still a very raw issue. A lot rawer than many people living outside rural republican areas realise. I'd imagine a this scheme won't run at a lot of Tyrone clubs for the same reasons. I know I would be far from comfortable with it.
I find it depressing that some people think making a stand against the police is more important than trying to tackle death on our roads.
Nothing the fire brigade couldn't manage by themselves where there are sensitivities around involvement of the police. Understandably, a lot of people, myself included, are still uncomfortable with them. No amount of passing judgement on such people for being uncomfortable will change that.
QuoteUnderstandably, a lot of people, myself included, are still uncomfortable with them. No amount of passing judgement on such people for being uncomfortable will change that.
The issue is not your being uncomfortable, that is your right. But the question is whether people should prevent a road safety event largely directed at children born after the GFA going ahead. I think that given the progression of events of recent years, it should be possible to simply not go to such an event rather than trying to stop others going to it.
Quote from: Nally Stand on April 28, 2012, 07:40:35 PM
Nothing the fire brigade couldn't manage by themselves where there are sensitivities around involvement of the police. Understandably, a lot of people, myself included, are still uncomfortable with them. No amount of passing judgement on such people for being uncomfortable will change that.
Then maybe you should just be uncomfortable and get on with it. Look at the bigger picture. Moves like this help legitimise the dissident position, dissuade young nationalists from joining the PSNI, make the GAA look as progressive as the OO... who benefits?
Quote from: armaghniac on April 28, 2012, 09:30:16 PM
QuoteUnderstandably, a lot of people, myself included, are still uncomfortable with them. No amount of passing judgement on such people for being uncomfortable will change that.
The issue is not your being uncomfortable, that is your right. But the question is whether people should prevent a road safety event largely directed at children born after the GFA going ahead. I think that given the progression of events of recent years, it should be possible to simply not go to such an event rather than trying to stop others going to it.
Nobody stopped it. The club decided it didn't want a protest. People have the right to protest.
ErIng
Quote from: Maguire01 on April 28, 2012, 09:46:37 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on April 28, 2012, 07:40:35 PM
Nothing the fire brigade couldn't manage by themselves where there are sensitivities around involvement of the police. Understandably, a lot of people, myself included, are still uncomfortable with them. No amount of passing judgement on such people for being uncomfortable will change that.
Then maybe you should just be uncomfortable and get on with it. Look at the bigger picture. Moves like this help legitimise the dissident position, dissuade young nationalists from joining the PSNI, make the GAA look as progressive as the OO... who benefits?
Legitimise dissidents?? It's possible to be uncomfortable with the PSNI and not be legitimisimg dissident activity you know. Claiming otherwise is one step away from blindly slapping the label of "dissident" on every person who still, understandably, feels uneasy with the police. Things are still raw.
Only seeing this thread now.
First of all - this event was set up by Derrylaughan GFC. They decided that they couldn't possibly have it at their end of the parish (rather conveniently) and asked the Hill could they use their facilities.
Secondly, Derrytresk patrons experienced some unsavoury behaviour by the PSNI on the night of the AI final. Feelings are still a bit raw.
That Washingbay centre - what was wrong with that?
Should have gone ahead and ran the event. Give the dinosaurs a box of tissues.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on April 29, 2012, 05:17:09 AM
Should have gone ahead and ran the event. Give the dinosaurs a box of tissues.
::)
The bad publicity that comes with this doesn't get attached to the individual club - most people outside the GAA community who read the article won't be able to name the club 5 minutes later. It's the GAA's reputation which will suffer.
Quote from: ONeill on April 28, 2012, 10:38:26 PM
Only seeing this thread now.
First of all - this event was set up by Derrylaughan GFC. They decided that they couldn't possibly have it at their end of the parish (rather conveniently) and asked the Hill could they use their facilities.
Secondly, Derrytresk patrons experienced some unsavoury behaviour by the PSNI on the night of the AI final. Feelings are still a bit raw.
What happened here?
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on April 29, 2012, 05:17:09 AM
Should have gone ahead and ran the event. Give the dinosaurs a box of tissues.
Exactly, they should dry their eyes. The same way that the families of IRA victims, the Paedophile Priest's victims etc should dry their eyes too and get on with it, right?
Quote from: Archie Mitchell on April 29, 2012, 01:14:05 PM
Quote from: ONeill on April 28, 2012, 10:38:26 PM
Only seeing this thread now.
First of all - this event was set up by Derrylaughan GFC. They decided that they couldn't possibly have it at their end of the parish (rather conveniently) and asked the Hill could they use their facilities.
Secondly, Derrytresk patrons experienced some unsavoury behaviour by the PSNI on the night of the AI final. Feelings are still a bit raw.
What happened here?
there was a derrytresk woman in the local papers recently who was done for being over the limit close to derrytresk's pitch on the night of the ai junior final. it seems like the police deliberately targeted hill supporters that night.
Quotethere was a derrytresk woman in the local papers recently who was done for being over the limit close to derrytresk's pitch on the night of the ai junior final. it seems like the police deliberately targeted hill supporters that night.
Targeting drunk drivers leads to road safety campaign being excluded from the club? That's even worse than the political excuse. It is hardly unacceptable to have a drink driving checkpoint where a lot of people are drinking.
Quote from: clarshack on April 29, 2012, 01:42:32 PM
Quote from: Archie Mitchell on April 29, 2012, 01:14:05 PM
Quote from: ONeill on April 28, 2012, 10:38:26 PM
Only seeing this thread now.
First of all - this event was set up by Derrylaughan GFC. They decided that they couldn't possibly have it at their end of the parish (rather conveniently) and asked the Hill could they use their facilities.
Secondly, Derrytresk patrons experienced some unsavoury behaviour by the PSNI on the night of the AI final. Feelings are still a bit raw.
What happened here?
there was a derrytresk woman in the local papers recently who was done for being over the limit close to derrytresk's pitch on the night of the ai junior final. it seems like the police deliberately targeted hill supporters that night.
Ah so putting other road users lives at risk is ok if your club has just won something? If she was over the limit she deserved to be done. If that's the only unsavoury behaviour that happened then it's a load of bollocks.
Quote from: clarshack on April 29, 2012, 01:42:32 PM
Quote from: Archie Mitchell on April 29, 2012, 01:14:05 PM
Quote from: ONeill on April 28, 2012, 10:38:26 PM
Only seeing this thread now.
First of all - this event was set up by Derrylaughan GFC. They decided that they couldn't possibly have it at their end of the parish (rather conveniently) and asked the Hill could they use their facilities.
Secondly, Derrytresk patrons experienced some unsavoury behaviour by the PSNI on the night of the AI final. Feelings are still a bit raw.
What happened here?
there was a derrytresk woman in the local papers recently who was done for being over the limit close to derrytresk's pitch on the night of the ai junior final. it seems like the police deliberately targeted hill supporters that night.
Christ Almighty!
drink drving is of course unacceptable and should be condemned. anybody who does it is an idiot.
however, it would also be interesting to see statistics on drink driving arrests around the 12th in loyalist areas and also when the likes of linfield, glentoran etc have done well - just for comparison.
Quote from: clarshack on April 29, 2012, 03:12:49 PM
drink drving is of course unacceptable and should be condemned. anybody who does it is an idiot.
however, it would also be interesting to see statistics on drink driving arrests around the 12th in loyalist areas and also when the likes of linfield, glentoran etc have done well - just for comparison.
Oh ffs, you are pathetic now.
Quote from: thebigfella on April 29, 2012, 03:30:18 PM
Quote from: clarshack on April 29, 2012, 03:12:49 PM
drink drving is of course unacceptable and should be condemned. anybody who does it is an idiot.
however, it would also be interesting to see statistics on drink driving arrests around the 12th in loyalist areas and also when the likes of linfield, glentoran etc have done well - just for comparison.
Oh ffs, you are pathetic now.
er pathetic how?
pathetic for saying drink driving is wrong and should be condemned and anyone who does it is an idiot?
pathetic to ask if all sides of society are treated the same in police operations?
catch a grip ffs!
Nothing to do with a drink driving check point. If you drink and drive, you've no excuse and it really doesn't matter if you're caught in Derrytresk on 17th March or in Portadown on 12th July.
But some totally inncoent lads were getting jip last year from some very, very heavy handed cops.
Jesus wept! So now for every one of ours that gets done for drunk driving there should be a prod who gets done as well, anything less is a civil rights abuse?
Get the f**k over yourselves. I've never met such professional moaners in all my life.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on April 29, 2012, 04:52:30 PM
Jesus wept! So now for every one of ours that gets done for drunk driving there should be a prod who gets done as well, anything less is a civil rights abuse?
Get the f**k over yourselves. I've never met such professional moaners sad cnuts in all my life.
Fixed that for you.
Quote from: clarshack on April 29, 2012, 04:22:34 PM
Quote from: thebigfella on April 29, 2012, 03:30:18 PM
Quote from: clarshack on April 29, 2012, 03:12:49 PM
drink drving is of course unacceptable and should be condemned. anybody who does it is an idiot.
however, it would also be interesting to see statistics on drink driving arrests around the 12th in loyalist areas and also when the likes of linfield, glentoran etc have done well - just for comparison.
Oh ffs, you are pathetic now.
er pathetic how?
pathetic for saying drink driving is wrong and should be condemned and anyone who does it is an idiot?
pathetic to ask if all sides of society are treated the same in police operations?
catch a grip ffs!
Whatabouterry, nothing more to say.
Quote from: pintsofguinness on April 29, 2012, 01:24:14 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on April 29, 2012, 05:17:09 AM
Should have gone ahead and ran the event. Give the dinosaurs a box of tissues.
Exactly, they should dry their eyes. The same way that the families of IRA victims, the Paedophile Priest's victims etc should dry their eyes too and get on with it, right?
And what, pray tell, does that have to do with a PSNI road safety campaign, hmm?
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on April 29, 2012, 05:28:25 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on April 29, 2012, 01:24:14 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on April 29, 2012, 05:17:09 AM
Should have gone ahead and ran the event. Give the dinosaurs a box of tissues.
Exactly, they should dry their eyes. The same way that the families of IRA victims, the Paedophile Priest's victims etc should dry their eyes too and get on with it, right?
And what, pray tell, does that have to do with a PSNI road safety campaign, hmm?
I'm interested in whether all victims should dry their eyes and move on or is it just police/army victims that should?
The PSNI has "victims"?
(http://i.istockimg.com/file_thumbview_approve/7465950/2/stock-illustration-7465950-smiling-brontosaurus.jpg)
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on April 29, 2012, 05:51:01 PM
The PSNI has "victims"?
Is your understanding of the situation lacking that much?
There's me thinking you were a smart fella, with your degree and all...
Come on Einstein, name me a victim of the PSNI.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on April 29, 2012, 05:54:18 PM
Come on Einstein, name me a victim of the PSNI.
See my post of 5.52pm.
Quote from: clarshack on April 29, 2012, 01:42:32 PM
Quote from: Archie Mitchell on April 29, 2012, 01:14:05 PM
Quote from: ONeill on April 28, 2012, 10:38:26 PM
Only seeing this thread now.
First of all - this event was set up by Derrylaughan GFC. They decided that they couldn't possibly have it at their end of the parish (rather conveniently) and asked the Hill could they use their facilities.
Secondly, Derrytresk patrons experienced some unsavoury behaviour by the PSNI on the night of the AI final. Feelings are still a bit raw.
What happened here?
there was a derrytresk woman in the local papers recently who was done for being over the limit close to derrytresk's pitch on the night of the ai junior final. it seems like the police deliberately targeted hill supporters that night.
:o :o
Fair dues to Derrytresk.
The PSNI are using the vehicle of the GAA to normalise policing. East Tyrone is a Republican heartland and fair dues to them for not hiding their colours, they shouldn't be ashamed of it one bit and be proud. The PSNI, hard to believe to some people , are still not welcome in areas here and as they enforce the powers of the state they never will be acceptable.
Quote from: theticklemister on April 29, 2012, 06:17:53 PM
Fair dues to Derrytresk.
The PSNI are using the vehicle of the GAA to normalise policing. East Tyrone is a Republican heartland and fair dues to them for not hiding their colours, they shouldn't be ashamed of it one bit and be proud. The PSNI, hard to believe to some people , are still not welcome in areas here and as they enforce the powers of the state they never will be acceptable.
I think you'll find that it's bigger than this - I think you'll find that the entire association ( GAA ) is being used ( knowingly or unknowingly, my view for what it matters is knowingly ) by the "government" to normalise policing and create a sense of normality which is all part of the choreography. More choreographics to follow. There can be no "no go" areas for the PSNI not even in "Republican" East Tyrone which is now a bit of an irony given the subject matter and given that there are members of the PSNI from all parts of Northern Ireland and the "Republic" now thanks to "governement" initiatives.
despite what alot of people on this thread think the truth of the matter is that the PSNI still isnt accepted in many parts of the north. the surprising thing is that some people are surprised at this.
Quote from: SHEEDY on April 29, 2012, 06:45:18 PM
despite what alot of people on this thread think the truth of the matter is that the PSNI still isnt accepted in many parts of the north. the surprising thing is that some people are surprised at this.
Sorry the PSNI are not accepted by some people in the north. Who the fcuk are you or anyone to say what a individual should and should not accept, just because they live in a certain area?
Quote from: orangeman on April 29, 2012, 06:26:06 PM
Quote from: theticklemister on April 29, 2012, 06:17:53 PM
Fair dues to Derrytresk.
The PSNI are using the vehicle of the GAA to normalise policing. East Tyrone is a Republican heartland and fair dues to them for not hiding their colours, they shouldn't be ashamed of it one bit and be proud. The PSNI, hard to believe to some people , are still not welcome in areas here and as they enforce the powers of the state they never will be acceptable.
I think you'll find that it's bigger than this - I think you'll find that the entire association ( GAA ) is being used ( knowingly or unknowingly, my view for what it matters is knowingly ) by the "government" to normalise policing and create a sense of normality which is all part of the choreography. More choreographics to follow. There can be no "no go" areas for the PSNI not even in "Republican" East Tyrone which is now a bit of an irony given the subject matter and given that there are members of the PSNI from all parts of Northern Ireland and the "Republic" now thanks to "governement" initiatives.
(http://www.gly.bristol.ac.uk/admissions/PhDprojects/pterosaur.png)
Ronan Kerr accepted the PSNI. Shame certain knuckle-dragging neanderthals didn't accept him.
Quote from: SHEEDY on April 29, 2012, 06:45:18 PM
despite what alot of people on this thread think the truth of the matter is that the PSNI still isnt accepted in many parts of the north. the surprising thing is that some people are surprised at this.
The guards are not accepted in parts of the republic as well. Tough. They are still the duly constituted police force by the will of the people.
I'm intrigued by the latest suggested definition of victimhood - "I'm 'uncomfortable', therefore I am a victim." And I have a right to protest. Of course you have. But that doesn't mean you're right to protest.
And again the GAA gets hijacked and abused by extremists who insist on dragging their politics into the GAA and the GAA into their politics. And ill served by its officials who lie down under it.
Normalisation my arse.
In other news, Alex Salmond today refused to report his car as stolen to the local police because to do so would "normalise" policing and add legitimacy to the British state that he's trying to break up.
Quote from: Hardy on April 29, 2012, 06:57:15 PM
Quote from: SHEEDY on April 29, 2012, 06:45:18 PM
despite what alot of people on this thread think the truth of the matter is that the PSNI still isnt accepted in many parts of the north. the surprising thing is that some people are surprised at this.
The guards are not accepted in parts of the republic as well. Tough. They are still the duly constituted police force by the will of the people.
I'm intrigued by the latest suggested definition of victimhood - "I'm 'uncomfortable', therefore I am a victim." And I have a right to protest. Of course you have. But that doesn't mean you're right to protest.
And again the GAA gets hijacked and abused by extremists who insist on dragging their politics into the GAA and the GAA into their politics. And ill served by its officials who lie down under it.
Normalisation my arse.
And again the GAA gets hijacked and abused by GAA members who insist that the PSNI who serve the policies of the state are welcome. And ill served by the lackies who wish to 'throw' them upon us.
Normailisation.
I fixed that last bit there for ye.
Believe it or not, there are Republicans out there who follow their beliefs and they are getting constantly slated for this. I for one make no apology for members who will follow these actions. Republicans (those who support military action or don't against British forces) are constantly targeted again and again by the Pro-British media and fair play to them for not going a long with these actions of the GAA who support the role of the PSNI at senior administrative level.
What business of "Republicans" is it to interfere in the activities of the GAA? What other group of GAA members takes its politics into GAA meeting rooms? What other group drags the GAA into its politics?
By the way, what is your proposal for policing the no-go areas you seem to want to set up?
Quote from: orangeman on April 29, 2012, 06:26:06 PM
Quote from: theticklemister on April 29, 2012, 06:17:53 PM
Fair dues to Derrytresk.
The PSNI are using the vehicle of the GAA to normalise policing. East Tyrone is a Republican heartland and fair dues to them for not hiding their colours, they shouldn't be ashamed of it one bit and be proud. The PSNI, hard to believe to some people , are still not welcome in areas here and as they enforce the powers of the state they never will be acceptable.
I think you'll find that it's bigger than this - I think you'll find that the entire association ( GAA ) is being used ( knowingly or unknowingly, my view for what it matters is knowingly ) by the "government" to normalise policing and create a sense of normality which is all part of the choreography. More choreographics to follow. There can be no "no go" areas for the PSNI not even in "Republican" East Tyrone which is now a bit of an irony given the subject matter and given that there are members of the PSNI from all parts of Northern Ireland and the "Republic" now thanks to "governement" initiatives.
You make "normalisation" of policing sound like a bad thing?! The fact they aren't ambushing people and harassing them (or worse) must be a constant source of disappointment
Quotefor not going a long with these actions of the GAA who support the role of the PSNI for not going a long with these actions of the GAA who support the role of the PSNI at senior administrative level.
Are you saying that the GAA senior administrative level does not represent the association in general? Or are the opinions of some people worth more than others?
Quote from: Hardy on April 29, 2012, 06:57:15 PM
Quote from: SHEEDY on April 29, 2012, 06:45:18 PM
despite what alot of people on this thread think the truth of the matter is that the PSNI still isnt accepted in many parts of the north. the surprising thing is that some people are surprised at this.
The guards are not accepted in parts of the republic as well. Tough. They are still the duly constituted police force by the will of the people.
Precisely. Law and order doesn't suit some people, no matter where you are. The 'political' angle is just another means of justifying that in the north.
Quote from: clarshack on April 29, 2012, 03:12:49 PM
drink drving is of course unacceptable and should be condemned. anybody who does it is an idiot.
however, it would also be interesting to see statistics on drink driving arrests around the 12th in loyalist areas and also when the likes of linfield, glentoran etc have done well - just for comparison.
The drink driving conviction angle really is ridiculous. And if the police didn't take action around loyalist areas - and I note that this is nothing more than an assumtion on your part - then all they're doing is failing to protect those communities. If the police arrest/convict drink drivers in Derrytresk, or any other areas, they're ultimately protecting the people in that area.
Quote from: Hardy on April 29, 2012, 07:27:23 PM
What business of "Republicans" is it to interfere in the activities of the GAA? What other group of GAA members takes its politics into GAA meeting rooms? What other group drags the GAA into its politics?
By the way, what is your proposal for policing the no-go areas you seem to want to set up?
Yer first point is somehow mind boggling, as there are Republicans who are members of the GAA they should have their view as much as anyone else. Yer Republicans in inverted comas is laughable, ye make out out as if these are gremlins or creatures; a lot of these people kept the GAA alive in areas.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on April 29, 2012, 07:32:30 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 29, 2012, 06:26:06 PM
Quote from: theticklemister on April 29, 2012, 06:17:53 PM
Fair dues to Derrytresk.
The PSNI are using the vehicle of the GAA to normalise policing. East Tyrone is a Republican heartland and fair dues to them for not hiding their colours, they shouldn't be ashamed of it one bit and be proud. The PSNI, hard to believe to some people , are still not welcome in areas here and as they enforce the powers of the state they never will be acceptable.
I think you'll find that it's bigger than this - I think you'll find that the entire association ( GAA ) is being used ( knowingly or unknowingly, my view for what it matters is knowingly ) by the "government" to normalise policing and create a sense of normality which is all part of the choreography. More choreographics to follow. There can be no "no go" areas for the PSNI not even in "Republican" East Tyrone which is now a bit of an irony given the subject matter and given that there are members of the PSNI from all parts of Northern Ireland and the "Republic" now thanks to "governement" initiatives.
You make "normalisation" of policing sound like a bad thing?! The fact they aren't ambushing people and harassing them (or worse) must be a constant source of disappointment
Normalisation of British rule, yes that does worry me. Your second point about ambushing people is very sickening indeed and the harrassment issue happens constantly still; even though they don't report it in the RTE news.
Quote from: armaghniac on April 29, 2012, 07:56:27 PM
Quotefor not going a long with these actions of the GAA who support the role of the PSNI for not going a long with these actions of the GAA who support the role of the PSNI at senior administrative level.
Are you saying that the GAA senior administrative level does not represent the association in general? Or are the opinions of some people worth more than others?
Ill put it to ye about Derrytresk not taking apart in this event; in yer own contradictory words- ' are the opinions of some people worth more than others?' So the other people should put pressure on a certain club for making a stand?
Overall every club can do what it wishes in any particular facet. My own club held this event recently, I objected and let it be known; but overall the majority of members wanted it to take place so I had to accept by it.
QuoteMy own club held this event recently, I objected and let it be known; but overall the majority of members wanted it to take place so I had to accept by it
.
That's fair enough. Choosing to picket the event if you lost the vote would have been an anti GAA measure. I am not concerned with people being anti PSNI, but object to people who are anti GAA.
Quote from: armaghniac on April 29, 2012, 09:13:24 PM
QuoteMy own club held this event recently, I objected and let it be known; but overall the majority of members wanted it to take place so I had to accept by it
.
That's fair enough. Choosing to picket the event if you lost the vote would have been an anti GAA measure. I am not concerned with people being anti PSNI, but object to people who are anti GAA.
I Love the GAA and think it does wonders for us. There are certain things however which grinds my gears that the GAA does; I would not follow the GAA (or anything else for that matter) blindly and make my mind up on certain decisions as they happen.
Amazing how someone can throw a red herring (or is it a white elephant) into a discussion and it then takes a life of its own - all based on an inaccurate statement. I never mentioned anything about drink driving.
Quote from: theticklemister on April 29, 2012, 09:06:38 PM
Quote from: Hardy on April 29, 2012, 07:27:23 PM
What business of "Republicans" is it to interfere in the activities of the GAA? What other group of GAA members takes its politics into GAA meeting rooms? What other group drags the GAA into its politics?
By the way, what is your proposal for policing the no-go areas you seem to want to set up?
Yer first point is somehow mind boggling, as there are Republicans who are members of the GAA they should have their view as much as anyone else. Yer Republicans in inverted comas is laughable, ye make out out as if these are gremlins or creatures; a lot of these people kept the GAA alive in areas.
I don't know where to start with this. Maybe I'll just ask you to address the salient point of my post, which you seem to have overlooked.
What is your "Republican" proposal for policing these no-go areas for the PSNI that you're advocating?
This was not a protest by republicans. It's a reaction to recent events in the area that have left feelings a little raw between the locals and the PSNI. I'd imagine 6 months ago this would've passed off without mention. I'd also imagine that in 6 months it might be calm.
If the church/local Lithuanians had anger the locals in one way or another and had then asked to use the GAA grounds a couple of months later there'd probably be a protest of sort (or a request to postpone the event) to vent the anger caused by the initial incident.
Derrytresk is definitely not a no-go area for PSNI.
Quote from: Hardy on April 29, 2012, 07:27:23 PM
What business of "Republicans" is it to interfere in the activities of the GAA? What other group of GAA members takes its politics into GAA meeting rooms? What other group drags the GAA into its politics?
Basic Aim
The Association is a National Organisation which has as its basic aim the strengthening of the National Identity in a 32 County Ireland through the preservation and promotion of Gaelic Games and pastimes.
QuoteThe Association is a National Organisation which has as its basic aim the strengthening of the National Identity in a 32 County Ireland through the preservation and promotion of Gaelic Games and pastimes.
has this episode assisted in the preservation and promotion of Gaelic Games and pastimes?
Quote from: armaghniac on April 30, 2012, 01:08:41 AM
QuoteThe Association is a National Organisation which has as its basic aim the strengthening of the National Identity in a 32 County Ireland through the preservation and promotion of Gaelic Games and pastimes.
has this episode assisted in the preservation and promotion of Gaelic Games and pastimes?
Bloody good question. This incident has hampered the effort to promote Gaelic sports by bringing unwelcome negative publicity to the organization and undermining its efforts to reach out to the unionist community.
Quote from: theticklemister on April 29, 2012, 09:06:38 PM
Normalisation of British rule, yes that does worry me.
Perhaps you yearn for the good old days when the news every night was one bomb alert and shooting after another.
People like you make me sick.
(http://dinosaurvalleyinn.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Dino_hunter.jpg)
Quote from: armaghniac on April 30, 2012, 01:08:41 AM
QuoteThe Association is a National Organisation which has as its basic aim the strengthening of the National Identity in a 32 County Ireland through the preservation and promotion of Gaelic Games and pastimes.
has this episode assisted in the preservation and promotion of Gaelic Games and pastimes?
All I'm doing is highlighting the inextricable link between the GAA and politics in its own rule book.
O'Neill is correct. The GAA is hugely political, especially in the North.
I would even go as far as to say Ulster GAA is being deliberately political. What those politics are you can make your own mind up on. There's alot of agendas at play here.
Go to the Ulster GAA website and look at the six most recent news items
http://ulster.gaa.ie/news/
Feile Uladh 2012 Update
Reduced Ticket Prices for Championship
Cúchulainn Cup improves Relations
DSD Minister launches Funding Boost
Local Churches and GAA Join in Garvagh
Handball O'Neill's Irish Nationals
50% of them are completely political. I'm not saying they aren't positive, quite the opposite. I'm just making the point that it is the GAA who are being political and pushing their own agenda.
So to answer Hardy's question around which group brings politics into the GAA, the answer is the major trafficker of politics is the GAA itself. And not just into the meeting rooms. Into every media outlet in Ulster and beyond.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on April 30, 2012, 01:45:46 AM
Quote from: theticklemister on April 29, 2012, 09:06:38 PM
Normalisation of British rule, yes that does worry me.
Perhaps you yearn for the good old days when the news every night was one bomb alert and shooting after another.
People like you make me sick.
(http://dinosaurvalleyinn.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Dino_hunter.jpg)
Yet again I will say I did not say anything of the sort and you are the second person to bring this up so I say to you 'why are YOU thinking these things?'
Why do people believe that being Republican minded is being supportive of an armed struggle?
Quote from: Hardy on April 30, 2012, 12:22:14 AM
Quote from: theticklemister on April 29, 2012, 09:06:38 PM
Quote from: Hardy on April 29, 2012, 07:27:23 PM
What business of "Republicans" is it to interfere in the activities of the GAA? What other group of GAA members takes its politics into GAA meeting rooms? What other group drags the GAA into its politics?
By the way, what is your proposal for policing the no-go areas you seem to want to set up?
Yer first point is somehow mind boggling, as there are Republicans who are members of the GAA they should have their view as much as anyone else. Yer Republicans in inverted comas is laughable, ye make out out as if these are gremlins or creatures; a lot of these people kept the GAA alive in areas.
I don't know where to start with this. Maybe I'll just ask you to address the salient point of my post, which you seem to have overlooked.
What is your "Republican" proposal for policing these no-go areas for the PSNI that you're advocating?
Sorry I missed this; that is a very good question and something that is never going to happen due to the poor support that Republicans enjoy in the vast majority of areas. This would take a huge overhaul and a sysytem that could undermine the police force by getting local people in place to implement republican principles. It happened to a fair degree of success during the War of Independence when a lot more people were in favour of the Republican position than it is now. If you don't have the will of the vast the majority of people this huge initative would never work; plus the non help of the Free State for finance and such into the 6 counties would also be a huge negative.
Quote from: theticklemister on April 30, 2012, 08:31:53 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on April 30, 2012, 01:45:46 AM
Quote from: theticklemister on April 29, 2012, 09:06:38 PM
Normalisation of British rule, yes that does worry me.
Perhaps you yearn for the good old days when the news every night was one bomb alert and shooting after another.
People like you make me sick.
(http://dinosaurvalleyinn.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Dino_hunter.jpg)
Yet again I will say I did not say anything of the sort and you are the second person to bring this up so I say to you 'why are YOU thinking these things?'
Why do people believe that being Republican minded is being supportive of an armed struggle?
Quote from: Hardy on April 30, 2012, 12:22:14 AM
Quote from: theticklemister on April 29, 2012, 09:06:38 PM
Quote from: Hardy on April 29, 2012, 07:27:23 PM
What business of "Republicans" is it to interfere in the activities of the GAA? What other group of GAA members takes its politics into GAA meeting rooms? What other group drags the GAA into its politics?
By the way, what is your proposal for policing the no-go areas you seem to want to set up?
Yer first point is somehow mind boggling, as there are Republicans who are members of the GAA they should have their view as much as anyone else. Yer Republicans in inverted comas is laughable, ye make out out as if these are gremlins or creatures; a lot of these people kept the GAA alive in areas.
I don't know where to start with this. Maybe I'll just ask you to address the salient point of my post, which you seem to have overlooked.
What is your "Republican" proposal for policing these no-go areas for the PSNI that you're advocating?
Sorry I missed this; that is a very good question and something that is never going to happen due to the poor support that Republicans enjoy in the vast majority of areas. This would take a huge overhaul and a sysytem that could undermine the police force by getting local people in place to implement republican principles. It happened to a fair degree of success during the War of Independence when a lot more people were in favour of the Republican position than it is now. If you don't have the will of the vast the majority of people this huge initative would never work; plus the non help of the Free State for finance and such into the 6 counties would also be a huge negative.
So you dont support an armed republican conflict though you think the republicans should police themself.
The only policing I have ever seen Republicans do was punishment beatings and shootings.
Do people here really want to drag the country back 25 years.
If the PSNI prevent some of our younger patrons from losing there life on the road then everyone should be supporting this
Quote from: theticklemister on April 30, 2012, 08:31:53 AM
to implement republican principles.
So what are these principles. Even just a quite oversight as to what they are.
I always understood the word republic to relate to the will of the people?
At the risk of enatcing Godwin's law.
Forcing
your ideals on people is more akin to fascism. Wouldn't u agree tickle?
And a solid back hand played up the line by Thatcher ;D can Tickle manage a return or will it be an unforced error!
Quote from: oisinog on April 30, 2012, 09:55:56 AM
So you dont support an armed republican conflict though you think the republicans should police themself.
The only policing I have ever seen Republicans do was punishment beatings and shootings.
Do people here really want to drag the country back 25 years.
If the PSNI prevent some of our younger patrons from losing there life on the road then everyone should be supporting this
Stephen Nolan has a new show on BBC some night during the week - think its Tuesdays or Wednesdays. Last week they had a text poll with the question along the lines of "Do you support punishment beatings?" - if I remember correctly 57% voted Yes.
Quote from: take_yer_points on April 30, 2012, 11:15:57 AM
Quote from: oisinog on April 30, 2012, 09:55:56 AM
So you dont support an armed republican conflict though you think the republicans should police themself.
The only policing I have ever seen Republicans do was punishment beatings and shootings.
Do people here really want to drag the country back 25 years.
If the PSNI prevent some of our younger patrons from losing there life on the road then everyone should be supporting this
Stephen Nolan has a new show on BBC some night during the week - think its Tuesdays or Wednesdays. Last week they had a text poll with the question along the lines of "Do you support punishment beatings?" - if I remember correctly 57% voted Yes.
I was thinking that when I wrote this.
There was less that 6000 votes. It would be intresting if there was a bigger cross setion of people voting on this would it be the same result.
Quote from: oisinog on April 30, 2012, 11:17:52 AM
Quote from: take_yer_points on April 30, 2012, 11:15:57 AM
Quote from: oisinog on April 30, 2012, 09:55:56 AM
So you dont support an armed republican conflict though you think the republicans should police themself.
The only policing I have ever seen Republicans do was punishment beatings and shootings.
Do people here really want to drag the country back 25 years.
If the PSNI prevent some of our younger patrons from losing there life on the road then everyone should be supporting this
Stephen Nolan has a new show on BBC some night during the week - think its Tuesdays or Wednesdays. Last week they had a text poll with the question along the lines of "Do you support punishment beatings?" - if I remember correctly 57% voted Yes.
I was thinking that when I wrote this.
There was less that 6000 votes. It would be intresting if there was a bigger cross setion of people voting on this would it be the same result.
I thought the same myself. I thought at the time that Nolan would be praying for a majority voting Yes - extra material for the "biggest show in the country" the following morning - just the type of statistic he'd love
Quote from: take_yer_points on April 30, 2012, 11:24:36 AM
Quote from: oisinog on April 30, 2012, 11:17:52 AM
Quote from: take_yer_points on April 30, 2012, 11:15:57 AM
Quote from: oisinog on April 30, 2012, 09:55:56 AM
So you dont support an armed republican conflict though you think the republicans should police themself.
The only policing I have ever seen Republicans do was punishment beatings and shootings.
Do people here really want to drag the country back 25 years.
If the PSNI prevent some of our younger patrons from losing there life on the road then everyone should be supporting this
Stephen Nolan has a new show on BBC some night during the week - think its Tuesdays or Wednesdays. Last week they had a text poll with the question along the lines of "Do you support punishment beatings?" - if I remember correctly 57% voted Yes.
I was thinking that when I wrote this.
There was less that 6000 votes. It would be intresting if there was a bigger cross setion of people voting on this would it be the same result.
I thought the same myself. I thought at the time that Nolan would be praying for a majority voting Yes - extra material for the "biggest show in the country" the following morning - just the type of statistic he'd love
A friend of mine said that if the people are in favour of punsihment beatings let the police carry it out.
To poll people from nice sub urban areas who are largely unaffected by anti social behaviour would tell you nothing. Watched the Nolan show last week. Thought he consistenlty overlooked the main point of why it happens and why do decent people support it. FFS at the weekend in derry some mother drove her son up for his "appointment". Saying, and I quote "i know its wrong but hopefully he will get help now"
I would have my doubts about the motives of those who carry out these attacks and whether they are actually doing it for the greater good of their community or is it just to protect their own rackets. I suspect the latter. However most people who get tortured by wee hoods dont really give a toss when one them gets knee capped or when a drug dealer or sex offender gets shot. Nolan constantly banged on about the cops poor confiction rate of 3% on these incidents of punishmnet beatings and shootings. But in fairness to the cops there isnt exactly wealth of invidence to go on. Generally zero relation between victim and perpetrator and zero witnesses (well anyone who will say anything other than "it was two masked men"). IMO more blame lie at the courts than the cops. Sentencing is a joke.
Quote from: HiMucker on April 30, 2012, 11:35:36 AM
Watched the Nolan show last week....
Just goes to show...people will watch anything. If there's a more sensationalist mouthpiece/slabber anywhere on this earth than the self-proclaimed champion of the people that is Stephen Nolan, I've yet to come across him/her.
Quote from: Nally Stand on April 30, 2012, 11:42:10 AM
Quote from: HiMucker on April 30, 2012, 11:35:36 AM
Watched the Nolan show last week....
Just goes to show...people will watch anything. If there's a more sensationalist mouthpiece/slabber anywhere on this earth than the self-proclaimed champion of the people that is Stephen Nolan, I've yet to come across him/her.
Dont judge me! :D I was just interested to see how he would react when it didnt go his way. He was expecting majority condemnation but it was never going to be forthcoming.
Quote from: HiMucker on April 30, 2012, 11:49:43 AM
Quote from: Nally Stand on April 30, 2012, 11:42:10 AM
Quote from: HiMucker on April 30, 2012, 11:35:36 AM
Watched the Nolan show last week....
Just goes to show...people will watch anything. If there's a more sensationalist mouthpiece/slabber anywhere on this earth than the self-proclaimed champion of the people that is Stephen Nolan, I've yet to come across him/her.
Dont judge me! :D I was just interested to see how he would react when it didnt go his way. He was expecting majority condemnation but it was never going to be forthcoming.
You still watched him though...it's people like who who keep that man in work!!!!
Quote from: Nally Stand on April 30, 2012, 11:54:30 AM
Quote from: HiMucker on April 30, 2012, 11:49:43 AM
Quote from: Nally Stand on April 30, 2012, 11:42:10 AM
Quote from: HiMucker on April 30, 2012, 11:35:36 AM
Watched the Nolan show last week....
Just goes to show...people will watch anything. If there's a more sensationalist mouthpiece/slabber anywhere on this earth than the self-proclaimed champion of the people that is Stephen Nolan, I've yet to come across him/her.
Dont judge me! :D I was just interested to see how he would react when it didnt go his way. He was expecting majority condemnation but it was never going to be forthcoming.
You still watched him though...it's people like who who keep that man in work!!!!
HiMucker, - Dont you see? your "Normalising british rule" but watching the bbc!!
I watched it through my chipped sky box whilst wearing a gaa jersey to counter that affect
Quote from: HiMucker on April 30, 2012, 10:37:23 AM
And a solid back hand played up the line by Thatcher ;D can Tickle manage a return or will it be an unforced error!
;D
Quote from: Nally Stand on April 30, 2012, 11:42:10 AM
Quote from: HiMucker on April 30, 2012, 11:35:36 AM
Watched the Nolan show last week....
Just goes to show...people will watch anything. If there's a more sensationalist mouthpiece/slabber anywhere on this earth than the self-proclaimed champion of the people that is Stephen Nolan, I've yet to come across him/her.
You are just as big a mouthpiece/slabber
Quote from: thebigfella on April 30, 2012, 01:19:33 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on April 30, 2012, 11:42:10 AM
Quote from: HiMucker on April 30, 2012, 11:35:36 AM
Watched the Nolan show last week....
Just goes to show...people will watch anything. If there's a more sensationalist mouthpiece/slabber anywhere on this earth than the self-proclaimed champion of the people that is Stephen Nolan, I've yet to come across him/her.
You are just as big a mouthpiece/slabber
OHHHH GOOD ONE!!!! A man with your level of wit belongs on stage..... Just marvelous!!!!
::)
Quote from: theticklemister on April 30, 2012, 08:31:53 AM
Yet again I will say I did not say anything of the sort
Yes you did. You said you have a problem with normalisation. What's that supposed to mean other than you don't want the place operating like a normal civilised society?
Your proposal for a vigilante system in place of policing is pie in the sky.
Quote from: take_yer_points on April 30, 2012, 11:15:57 AM
Quote from: oisinog on April 30, 2012, 09:55:56 AM
So you dont support an armed republican conflict though you think the republicans should police themself.
The only policing I have ever seen Republicans do was punishment beatings and shootings.
Do people here really want to drag the country back 25 years.
If the PSNI prevent some of our younger patrons from losing there life on the road then everyone should be supporting this
Stephen Nolan has a new show on BBC some night during the week - think its Tuesdays or Wednesdays. Last week they had a text poll with the question along the lines of "Do you support punishment beatings?" - if I remember correctly 57% voted Yes.
How likely is it that Nolan's audience reflects the general population?
Quote from: Maguire01 on April 30, 2012, 06:03:55 PM
Quote from: take_yer_points on April 30, 2012, 11:15:57 AM
Quote from: oisinog on April 30, 2012, 09:55:56 AM
So you dont support an armed republican conflict though you think the republicans should police themself.
The only policing I have ever seen Republicans do was punishment beatings and shootings.
Do people here really want to drag the country back 25 years.
If the PSNI prevent some of our younger patrons from losing there life on the road then everyone should be supporting this
Stephen Nolan has a new show on BBC some night during the week - think its Tuesdays or Wednesdays. Last week they had a text poll with the question along the lines of "Do you support punishment beatings?" - if I remember correctly 57% voted Yes.
How likely is it that Nolan's audience reflects the general population?
I don't think I suggested they did.
The fact that 57% of any sample of 6000 support punishment beatings is hard to believe - no matter who they watch on TV
Quote from: take_yer_points on April 30, 2012, 06:41:22 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on April 30, 2012, 06:03:55 PM
Quote from: take_yer_points on April 30, 2012, 11:15:57 AM
Quote from: oisinog on April 30, 2012, 09:55:56 AM
So you dont support an armed republican conflict though you think the republicans should police themself.
The only policing I have ever seen Republicans do was punishment beatings and shootings.
Do people here really want to drag the country back 25 years.
If the PSNI prevent some of our younger patrons from losing there life on the road then everyone should be supporting this
Stephen Nolan has a new show on BBC some night during the week - think its Tuesdays or Wednesdays. Last week they had a text poll with the question along the lines of "Do you support punishment beatings?" - if I remember correctly 57% voted Yes.
How likely is it that Nolan's audience reflects the general population?
I don't think I suggested they did.
The fact that 57% of any sample of 6000 support punishment beatings is hard to believe - no matter who they watch on TV
How likely is it that a proportion of those people were taking the piss?
Quote from: Nally Stand on April 30, 2012, 11:42:10 AM
Quote from: HiMucker on April 30, 2012, 11:35:36 AM
Watched the Nolan show last week....
Just goes to show...people will watch anything. If there's a more sensationalist mouthpiece/slabber anywhere on this earth than the self-proclaimed champion of the people that is Stephen Nolan, I've yet to come across him/her.
I think I may be in agreement with Nally. I'm going to have to have a lie down.
Quote from: Maguire01 on April 30, 2012, 07:20:57 PM
Quote from: take_yer_points on April 30, 2012, 06:41:22 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on April 30, 2012, 06:03:55 PM
Quote from: take_yer_points on April 30, 2012, 11:15:57 AM
Quote from: oisinog on April 30, 2012, 09:55:56 AM
So you dont support an armed republican conflict though you think the republicans should police themself.
The only policing I have ever seen Republicans do was punishment beatings and shootings.
Do people here really want to drag the country back 25 years.
If the PSNI prevent some of our younger patrons from losing there life on the road then everyone should be supporting this
Stephen Nolan has a new show on BBC some night during the week - think its Tuesdays or Wednesdays. Last week they had a text poll with the question along the lines of "Do you support punishment beatings?" - if I remember correctly 57% voted Yes.
How likely is it that Nolan's audience reflects the general population?
I don't think I suggested they did.
The fact that 57% of any sample of 6000 support punishment beatings is hard to believe - no matter who they watch on TV
How likely is it that a proportion of those people were taking the piss?
I have no idea what type of person voted but I'd be surprised if anything other than a small minority voted to take the piss.
If I had to have a guess I'd say the type of person to vote would be people with strong opinions on the matter. That's only opinion though and I have nothing to back it up