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Christ lads thats a sad event that has taken place in Co Cavan. Its hard to believe that your that far gone and see the only option is to kill yourself and your family.
May they rest in peace

Quote from: Hereiam on August 30, 2016, 10:35:46 AM
Christ lads thats a sad event that has taken place in Co Cavan. Its hard to believe that your that far gone and see the only option is to kill yourself and your family.
May they rest in peace

It is happening fairly regularly these days. The kids get killed which is awful

Awful case.
RIP all of them.

Knife attack, God knows how much those kids suffered.

One of the people interviewed described it as bewildering, which it is to me.

A cowardly act. RIP to the innocent victims.

Terrible, what goes through peoples minds when they are carrying out these attacks I will never know!

I get depression and how it can affect your mind and cause you to self harm and kill yourself, but these type of attacks take it to another level of god knows what

Shocking story. Agree with all the sentiments above. Actually taking a knife and stabbing your kids to death is beyond any comprehension. It seems outside any normal parameters of what the man in the street calls "depression".

Quote from: Tony Baloney on August 30, 2016, 01:41:40 PM
Shocking story. Agree with all the sentiments above. Actually taking a knife and stabbing your kids to death is beyond any comprehension. It seems outside any normal parameters of what the man in the street calls "depression".

Listening to a few radio phone in shows here and some people would make you sick listening to them.
Ah sure he had mental health issues the poor craythur....
How can anyone feel sorry for him?
He went and stuck a knife into his wife and 3 kids. It was murder nothing else.
When do we stop excusing crimes like this because he may or may not have been depressed.
Do we start excusing paedophiles and rapists now also because they may have had depression or other mental health issues?
He put a note on the back door to tell the next person who called to the house to ring the Guards ffs. He knew what he was doing.
If someone shoots up a school in America we are all shocked and have no sympathy  for the attacker. This yesterday was the same thing yet there are some feeling sorry for the person who did the act. I don't get it.
I hope he rots in hell.

Well said Laoislad.  My first reaction with these type of events is confusement as to how people tend to see the murderer as less evil/bad because he killed his family and himself.  At the end of the day, he murdered his wife and children, if anything their last few moments would have been all the more horrific as he was the last person in the world that should expose them to so much pain and fear and ultimately, death. 

Stabbing is so personal and intense, is mental health the only factor in play?

I'd be inclined to be unsympathetic myself, kill yourself and be done with it.

Quote from: laoislad on August 30, 2016, 01:48:48 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on August 30, 2016, 01:41:40 PM
Shocking story. Agree with all the sentiments above. Actually taking a knife and stabbing your kids to death is beyond any comprehension. It seems outside any normal parameters of what the man in the street calls "depression".

Listening to a few radio phone in shows here and some people would make you sick listening to them.
Ah sure he had mental health issues the poor craythur....
How can anyone feel sorry for him?
He went and stuck a knife into his wife and 3 kids. It was murder nothing else.
When do we stop excusing crimes like this because he may or may not have been depressed.
Do we start excusing paedophiles and rapists now also because they may have had depression or other mental health issues?
He put a note on the back door to tell the next person who called to the house to ring the Guards ffs. He knew what he was doing.
If someone shoots up a school in America we are all shocked and have no sympathy  for the attacker. This yesterday was the same thing yet there are some feeling sorry for the person who did the act. I don't get it.
I hope he rots in hell.

I reckon that none of us have any idea what was going through the man's mind. The difference is that nobody else has felt that they're in any position to comment on it.

If you assume that he loved his wife and kids (or at least his kids) then how could any of us in our right mind comprehend how he could kill them? My view is that we cannot and so posts such as yours lacking any knowledge of the situation should be withheld.

Quote from: mrdeeds on August 30, 2016, 03:19:55 PM
It hasn't being officialy said it was the husband so quit with the speculation.

RTE 9.00 news last night said it was the husband. Have they retracted that?

Quote from: mrdeeds on August 30, 2016, 03:28:16 PM

Quote from: Hound on August 30, 2016, 03:26:09 PM

Quote from: mrdeeds on August 30, 2016, 03:19:55 PM
It hasn't being officialy said it was the husband so quit with the speculation.

RTE 9.00 news last night said it was the husband. Have they retracted that?

Was said but then in next instance said a person so obviously a slip up. Gutter papers such as the Sun and Mirror hoped on the father angle straight away. But there has being no official statement from the Guards confriming it was him.

Assistant Garda Commissioner John O'Driscoll described the scene as "a grim discovery". The alarm was raised at about 10.45am when someone, believed to be a relative, called to the house and became suspicious
"We can confirm that we are not looking for anybody else. We believe all the answers are within that house so therefore the most likely scenario that one person in that house may have caused the death of others," he said.

It's hardly likely to be a kid or the wife.

Quote from: Esmarelda on August 30, 2016, 02:52:10 PM

Quote from: laoislad on August 30, 2016, 01:48:48 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on August 30, 2016, 01:41:40 PM
Shocking story. Agree with all the sentiments above. Actually taking a knife and stabbing your kids to death is beyond any comprehension. It seems outside any normal parameters of what the man in the street calls "depression".

Listening to a few radio phone in shows here and some people would make you sick listening to them.
Ah sure he had mental health issues the poor craythur....
How can anyone feel sorry for him?
He went and stuck a knife into his wife and 3 kids. It was murder nothing else.
When do we stop excusing crimes like this because he may or may not have been depressed.
Do we start excusing paedophiles and rapists now also because they may have had depression or other mental health issues?
He put a note on the back door to tell the next person who called to the house to ring the Guards ffs. He knew what he was doing.
If someone shoots up a school in America we are all shocked and have no sympathy  for the attacker. This yesterday was the same thing yet there are some feeling sorry for the person who did the act. I don't get it.
I hope he rots in hell.

I reckon that none of us have any idea what was going through the man's mind. The difference is that nobody else has felt that they're in any position to comment on it.

If you assume that he loved his wife and kids (or at least his kids) then how could any of us in our right mind comprehend how he could kill them? My view is that we cannot and so posts such as yours lacking any knowledge of the situation should be withheld.

Exactly. I seriously doubt there was any evil motive for these killings. If that turns out to be the case then I'll gladly retract but my initial suspicion is that there are some serious mental health issues at play here

No matter how this panned out, there are at least 3 innocent victims.

I agree with those who see this as a mass murder rather than a mere unfortunate mental health event. A single death resulting from a mental health issue is a tragedy, imho this is far worse.

These things can be contagious and soft language and tributes at funerals, towards perpetrators, can inadvertently give 'social permission' to the next mass murderer. Sometimes it is really important to call it as it is. This may turn out to be one of them.

RIP to the victims.

The people who jump onto a forum straight after a tragic event such as this to spout their opinion, knowing nothing other than what's reported would make you sick. Who gives a fcuk what your opinion of the situation is?    The same bollockses are probably contributing to the depression thread posting their opinion as gospel too. 

Quote from: muppet on August 30, 2016, 03:48:34 PM
No matter how this panned out, there are at least 3 innocent victims.

I agree with those who see this as a mass murder rather than a mere unfortunate mental health event. A single death resulting from a mental health issue is a tragedy, imho this is far worse.

These things can be contagious and soft language and tributes at funerals, towards perpetrators, can inadvertently give 'social permission' to the next mass murderer. Sometimes it is really important to call it as it is. This may turn out to be one of them.

RIP to the victims.

Well put.
The Irish Times cited a study which counted 19 of these incidents over the last decade or so . That is a lot for 4.5 m people. Does the UK have 15x the incidence ?
There is a sizeable risk for Irish kids that they will die in a family bloodbath. And there must be links with one case being encouraged by the succesful completion of another. I wonder if they should even be reported.
Does the general public need to know ?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/murder-suicide-now-a-regular-phenomenon-1.2772334
Murder-suicide appears to have become a regular phenomenon of recent years, said Deputy State Pathologist Michael Curtis in 2013 when a study on dyadic deaths was published.
The study, carried out by Ciara Byrne, then a student of Forensic Analysis and Investigation at Sligo IT, found the majority of people who killed others before taking their own lives did not suffer from a previous psychiatric illness, and that neither drink nor drugs were major factors.
The study found there were 19 cases in the 12½ years to June 2013.

Una Butler lost her family in 2010

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/murder-suicide-cases-being-brushed-under-carpet-in-ireland-1.2772960
"Murder-suicide, people seem to think they're rare, but they're not - there have been 27 cases since 2000. I've researched it myself because there aren't any official statistics here in Ireland on murder-suicides," she said.
"Of those 27 cases, 20 involved children, 29 children have been murdered and ten adults. I was campaigning for changes to the Mental Health Act because my husband was suffering with depression at the time - I am campaigning to involve family members because patient confidentiality is being put ahead.
"I'm not saying that all these cases involved people suffering with their mental health."
Ms Butler said there is not enough investigation into murder-suicides in Ireland and the Garda investigation concludes at the inquest.
"These cases are being brushed under the carpet. Family should involved in treatment."
Speaking about her own experience, she said: "It's very had to live without my children. I just had to learn and to do the best I can every day.

Quote from: seafoid on August 30, 2016, 04:26:45 PM

Quote from: muppet on August 30, 2016, 03:48:34 PM
No matter how this panned out, there are at least 3 innocent victims.

I agree with those who see this as a mass murder rather than a mere unfortunate mental health event. A single death resulting from a mental health issue is a tragedy, imho this is far worse.

These things can be contagious and soft language and tributes at funerals, towards perpetrators, can inadvertently give 'social permission' to the next mass murderer. Sometimes it is really important to call it as it is. This may turn out to be one of them.

RIP to the victims.

Well put.
The Irish Times cited a study which counted 19 of these incidents over the last decade or so . That is a lot for 4.5 m people. Does the UK have 15x the incidence ?
There is a sizeable risk for Irish kids that they will die in a family bloodbath. And there must be links with one case being encouraged by the succesful completion of another. I wonder if they should even be reported.
Does the general public need to know ?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/murder-suicide-now-a-regular-phenomenon-1.2772334
Murder-suicide appears to have become a regular phenomenon of recent years, said Deputy State Pathologist Michael Curtis in 2013 when a study on dyadic deaths was published.
The study, carried out by Ciara Byrne, then a student of Forensic Analysis and Investigation at Sligo IT, found the majority of people who killed others before taking their own lives did not suffer from a previous psychiatric illness, and that neither drink nor drugs were major factors.
The study found there were 19 cases in the 12½ years to June 2013.

With regards to the first part in bold, why would you say this?

On the second part, I'd have thought that the word "known" should be in there.

I'm suppressing my rage at most of the posts but I will state that I agree with StGallsGAA.

Quote from: Esmarelda on August 30, 2016, 04:59:57 PM

Quote from: seafoid on August 30, 2016, 04:26:45 PM

Quote from: muppet on August 30, 2016, 03:48:34 PM
No matter how this panned out, there are at least 3 innocent victims.

I agree with those who see this as a mass murder rather than a mere unfortunate mental health event. A single death resulting from a mental health issue is a tragedy, imho this is far worse.

These things can be contagious and soft language and tributes at funerals, towards perpetrators, can inadvertently give 'social permission' to the next mass murderer. Sometimes it is really important to call it as it is. This may turn out to be one of them.

RIP to the victims.

Well put.
The Irish Times cited a study which counted 19 of these incidents over the last decade or so . That is a lot for 4.5 m people. Does the UK have 15x the incidence ?
There is a sizeable risk for Irish kids that they will die in a family bloodbath. And there must be links with one case being encouraged by the succesful completion of another. I wonder if they should even be reported.
Does the general public need to know ?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/murder-suicide-now-a-regular-phenomenon-1.2772334
Murder-suicide appears to have become a regular phenomenon of recent years, said Deputy State Pathologist Michael Curtis in 2013 when a study on dyadic deaths was published.
The study, carried out by Ciara Byrne, then a student of Forensic Analysis and Investigation at Sligo IT, found the majority of people who killed others before taking their own lives did not suffer from a previous psychiatric illness, and that neither drink nor drugs were major factors.
The study found there were 19 cases in the 12½ years to June 2013.

With regards to the first part in bold, why would you say this?

On the second part, I'd have thought that the word "known" should be in there.

I'm suppressing my rage at most of the posts but I will state that I agree with StGallsGAA.

Because when people are suicidal they tend to think about how other suicides were carried out.
For example driving a car into the traffic on the other side. And if there is a precedent they may replicate it.

I just cannot comprehend the devastation that there must be in the wider families, communities, schools etc

Quote from: manfromdelmonte on August 30, 2016, 05:07:01 PM
I just cannot comprehend the devastation that there must be in the wider families, communities, schools etc

Imagine the aunts, uncles and cousins

Awful tragedy, brings back terrible memories of a similar incident in Omagh a few years back. RIP

The topic that has come up tho is an interesting one which we have to tackle and wether or not it applies to this case or not we will soon find out.

On the one hand Freedom of choice and responsibility of that choice is the basis of the justice system and rightly or wrongly the mental health defence completely undermines this. This paradigm has infiltrated our opinion and thought on the matter, to be sympathetic to people with psychological issues rather than attach blame to them.

Someone can de deemed devoid or responsibility based on their actions and behaviour without actually anything physically wrong with them. Its completely subjective and the opens a can of worms. Whats the difference between a sociopath and a schizophrenic for example? Why does one deserve to be treated differently in the justice system than the other? What about a fit of rage, drunk etc none of these cases you are thinking straight.


On the other side if you are drawing an unsympathetic line in the sand to those that are depressed that commit acts like this you would have to apply it across the board including those who take their own lives.

Mental Health has no simple answers.

Quote from: seafoid on August 30, 2016, 04:26:45 PM

Quote from: muppet on August 30, 2016, 03:48:34 PM
No matter how this panned out, there are at least 3 innocent victims.

I agree with those who see this as a mass murder rather than a mere unfortunate mental health event. A single death resulting from a mental health issue is a tragedy, imho this is far worse.

These things can be contagious and soft language and tributes at funerals, towards perpetrators, can inadvertently give 'social permission' to the next mass murderer. Sometimes it is really important to call it as it is. This may turn out to be one of them.

RIP to the victims.

Well put.
The Irish Times cited a study which counted 19 of these incidents over the last decade or so . That is a lot for 4.5 m people. Does the UK have 15x the incidence ?
There is a sizeable risk for Irish kids that they will die in a family bloodbath. And there must be links with one case being encouraged by the succesful completion of another. I wonder if they should even be reported.
Does the general public need to know ?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/murder-suicide-now-a-regular-phenomenon-1.2772334
Murder-suicide appears to have become a regular phenomenon of recent years, said Deputy State Pathologist Michael Curtis in 2013 when a study on dyadic deaths was published.
The study, carried out by Ciara Byrne, then a student of Forensic Analysis and Investigation at Sligo IT, found the majority of people who killed others before taking their own lives did not suffer from a previous psychiatric illness, and that neither drink nor drugs were major factors.
The study found there were 19 cases in the 12½ years to June 2013.

There was a lady on Drivetime earlier who said that in the vast majority of these cases, the people who committed these crimes had mental illnesses and that ~80% had recently had a negative life changing event e.g. Losing a job.

She also said that the details of the murders and the motives for them shouldn't be "glamourised" too much in the media for fear of copycats; rather that the focus should be on the victims and the consequences on those left behind.

Terrible tragedy for the family

I tell u one thing, the headline on yesterdays irish news where they claimed the father done it is why i don't buy this paper any more, gutter journalism at its best.

Quote from: Hereiam on August 31, 2016, 12:22:18 AM
I tell u one thing, the headline on yesterdays irish news where they claimed the father done it is why i don't buy this paper any more, gutter journalism at its best.

So who did it then? As I said earlier the Guards said someone in the house did this. Statistically speaking it's unlikely to be the children (considering the eldest was 13) or the wife. That leaves the husband/da.

It was the Garda statement that kicked off the speculation and its very easy to conclude (maybe wrongly) that the father (especially if knives were used) was the only murderer. There must be a high level of certainty given the garda statement that there was no outside involvement I presume. Can 'the disgusted' help the rest of us understand what is wrong with the conclusions being drawn? Are there wrong assumptions being made? If so what are they?

Some gunk to any community all the same when you consider the positive contribution they were making in it ... hard to fathom

Gardai say the father hanged himself after murdering his wife and children with a number of different knives.

No known history of mental illness. A sealed envelope was found which is thought to contain a detailed letter written by the father.

How many on here have suffered a mental breakdown or supported someone who has either as a lay person or a medical professional?  I'd say very few. I have and what I can say is that there are times when you are depressed that all rationale and reasoning goes out through the gate. No one knows what precipitated this terrible event. We can speculate, condemn, sympathise, whatever, but no one knows what went on in the minutes, hours, days or even years leading up to this apart from the people involved. It was murder full stop but that does not mean there were not mental health issues. We are not in a court here trying to win a case. You can call something wrong but still realise and accept that there were horrible reasons before an event that contributed significantly to it. Mental health problems are rife in our country and if you look at the majority of crimes committed they are carried out by people with either mental health problems or poor education or both, with the mental health being untreated for years because of domestic circumstances, societal attitudes or simply ignorance on the part of the person.

A lot of people believe its healthier for wider society to focus solely on the abhorrence of the crime as they are fearful that there's a minuscule level of justification when mental health issues are brought up to explain why they might happen and that future occurrences might be more likely as a result of that rationale.

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 31, 2016, 07:52:16 AM
How many on here have suffered a mental breakdown or supported someone who has either as a lay person or a medical professional?  I'd say very few. I have and what I can say is that there are times when you are depressed that all rationale and reasoning goes out through the gate. No one knows what precipitated this terrible event. We can speculate, condemn, sympathise, whatever, but no one knows what went on in the minutes, hours, days or even years leading up to this apart from the people involved. It was murder full stop but that does not mean there were not mental health issues. We are not in a court here trying to win a case. You can call something wrong but still realise and accept that there were horrible reasons before an event that contributed significantly to it. Mental health problems are rife in our country and if you look at the majority of crimes committed they are carried out by people with either mental health problems or poor education or both, with the mental health being untreated for years because of domestic circumstances, societal attitudes or simply ignorance on the part of the person.

That's fair enough, but people are allowed to be sicken/disgusted by such an event and express their views (as you have) as you have said and others no one really knows what lead to this, he could have suffered a mental breakdown or was a psychopath ...

Not talking about these things is bad and talking about them seems to be bad (depending on your point of view)

These things will always stir up bad reactions due to children being killed especially in the manner like this, as in the Omagh incident a few years ago... So asking, have people suffered depression won't be enough for people to think about his issues, most I'd imagine are thinking of what that family suffered during that attack!

I hope that depression and other mental issues get the treatment and attention required to prevent incidences like this ever happen again but not when most of the resources for this is limited

I work in the area of mental health so have met many seriously unwell people in the darkest depths of depression or deeply lost in a world of detached reality. What I just can't wrap my head around is that If he was suffering from some sort of mental health issue that lead him commit this heinous crime then how the hell did he hide it so well? If you were unwell enough to commit such a desperate act then surely there would have been huge earning signs. Did I read they had attended a GAA match in the hours before? It really doesn't make sense. Gif rest those poor kids and mum, such a tragic end of innocent lives.

This is based on the presumption that Hounds post above is correct.

Quote from: omagh_gael on August 31, 2016, 08:32:50 AM
This is based on the presumption that Hounds post above is correct.

As reported by Irish Times this morning

the fact that he probably planned the whole thing, is what gets me

he didn't just snap

the mind boggles

I think there is just so much pressure on people nowadays. In everything.

I know people on this forum have made fun of teachers and the holidays etc, but I know some teachers who genuinely hate the job and I don't how they come into school everyday.

Quote from: omagh_gael on August 31, 2016, 08:32:50 AM
I work in the area of mental health so have met many seriously unwell people in the darkest depths of depression or deeply lost in a world of detached reality. What I just can't wrap my head around is that If he was suffering from some sort of mental health issue that lead him commit this heinous crime then how the hell did he hide it so well? If you were unwell enough to commit such a desperate act then surely there would have been huge earning signs. Did I read they had attended a GAA match in the hours before? It really doesn't make sense. Gif rest those poor kids and mum, such a tragic end of innocent lives.

This is based on the presumption that Hounds post above is correct.

He had a history of mental illness. Maybe the last time he got so down that he thought of suicide and taking the family with him. Say he had some bad news that tipped him over recently. The thought patterns would have returned.

Quote from: seafoid on August 31, 2016, 10:11:40 AM

Quote from: omagh_gael on August 31, 2016, 08:32:50 AM
I work in the area of mental health so have met many seriously unwell people in the darkest depths of depression or deeply lost in a world of detached reality. What I just can't wrap my head around is that If he was suffering from some sort of mental health issue that lead him commit this heinous crime then how the hell did he hide it so well? If you were unwell enough to commit such a desperate act then surely there would have been huge earning signs. Did I read they had attended a GAA match in the hours before? It really doesn't make sense. Gif rest those poor kids and mum, such a tragic end of innocent lives.

This is based on the presumption that Hounds post above is correct.

He had a history of mental illness. Maybe the last time he got so down that he thought of suicide and taking the family with him. Say he had some bad news that tipped him over recently. The thought patterns would have returned.

He didn't have a history of mental illness.

Also he was collecting money at the gate for the club that afternoon. The whole thing is so unreal.

Quote from: manfromdelmonte on August 31, 2016, 09:24:19 AM
I know people on this forum have made fun of teachers and the holidays etc, but I know some teachers who genuinely hate the job and I don't how they come into school everyday.

Genuinely puzzled at what you've typed there

Quote from: mrdeeds on August 31, 2016, 10:19:42 AM

Quote from: seafoid on August 31, 2016, 10:11:40 AM

Quote from: omagh_gael on August 31, 2016, 08:32:50 AM
I work in the area of mental health so have met many seriously unwell people in the darkest depths of depression or deeply lost in a world of detached reality. What I just can't wrap my head around is that If he was suffering from some sort of mental health issue that lead him commit this heinous crime then how the hell did he hide it so well? If you were unwell enough to commit such a desperate act then surely there would have been huge earning signs. Did I read they had attended a GAA match in the hours before? It really doesn't make sense. Gif rest those poor kids and mum, such a tragic end of innocent lives.

This is based on the presumption that Hounds post above is correct.

He had a history of mental illness. Maybe the last time he got so down that he thought of suicide and taking the family with him. Say he had some bad news that tipped him over recently. The thought patterns would have returned.

He didn't have a history of mental illness.

Also he was collecting money at the gate for the club that afternoon. The whole thing is so unreal.

I read yesterday that he had.
He could still be suicidal and helping out the club.

Just because someone is feeling suicidal it doesn't mean they sulk around moping all day with a long face on them

Quote from: general_lee on August 31, 2016, 11:12:47 AM
Just because someone is feeling suicidal it doesn't mean they sulk around moping all day with a long face on them

True... I read a diary of a guy who attempted suicide recently who said that once he had decided he was going to do the deed he felt a calmness and serenity about him that finally it would be over and he was happy with that...

I haven't commented because I don't know what to feel about the whole thing. It's a heartbreaking atrocity I mean to murder your whole family... Why? What is wrong with you to do something like that.

On the other hand I know people who have gone through mental health issues and I want to understand that it's not the person it's the illness but for this man to take his whole family with him is just something I can't comprehend.

Anyway I feel for the family left behind on both sides I have no idea how they can come to terms with this but I hope they are able to and they can get past it somehow.

I think I read somewhere about someone who killed his kids and then attempted suicide. The logic was that he didn't want the kids to be without their father

A concerned parent no doubt  :-\

Whatever the rationale of these murderers, their actions have to be vigorously decried so as to in some way offer an alternative perspective to the perverted thoughts of potential future perpetrators.

Quote from: screenexile on August 31, 2016, 11:49:37 AM

Quote from: general_lee on August 31, 2016, 11:12:47 AM
Just because someone is feeling suicidal it doesn't mean they sulk around moping all day with a long face on them

On the other hand I know people who have gone through mental health issues and I want to understand that it's not the person it's the illness but for this man to take his whole family with him is just something I can't comprehend.

It's not an isolated case though. Surely if someone is willing to take their own life; it won't take much to go that extra bit further to kill their family (with the help of additional underlying mental condition(s)). It's probably a whole more complex than that but that would be my thinking on it.

Quote from: theskull1 on August 31, 2016, 12:30:29 PM
A concerned parent no doubt  :-\

Whatever the rationale of these murderers, their actions have to be vigorously decried so as to in some way offer an alternative perspective to the perverted thoughts of potential future perpetrators.

Are you suggesting that murder-suicide involving one's wife and kids is something that is NOT seen as abhorrent or is seen as even acceptable?

This type of act is not rational. Whether the man had ongoing mental illness issues or had some kind of psychotic episode, I seriously doubt if the thought of society tut-tutting would have overwhelmed any destructive thoughts or urges or twisted logic he was experiencing.

Are you suggesting that murder-suicide involving one's wife and kids is something that is NOT seen as abhorrent or is seen as even acceptable?

Not by society in general. But I'm saying that by society explaining away the reasoning of such individuals in a small way 'could' provide another troubled individual with the rational to think he was valid in his warped thought process. Safer to represent such individuals as totally heinous in the hope that that 100% abhorrent sentiment toward such people 'might' stop someone acting in such a manner in future. Just my thoughts on the matter. I could be totally wrong

This type of act is not rational. Whether the man had ongoing mental illness issues or had some kind of psychotic episode, I seriously doubt if the thought of society tut-tutting would have overwhelmed any destructive thoughts or urges or twisted logic he was experiencing.


As I say ... I don't know, but have a suspicion that memetics could play a part especially if these murder/suicide rate are higher than average in one country over another similar population.

This was a case from the UK. I wonder how the incidence rates compare by country

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/20/mother-killed-children-love-messages-car-park-suffolk-inquest

From the previous story----"In her words: a mother never abandons her children."  This could explain alot

Quote from: J70 on August 31, 2016, 12:52:54 PM

Quote from: theskull1 on August 31, 2016, 12:30:29 PM
A concerned parent no doubt  :-\

Whatever the rationale of these murderers, their actions have to be vigorously decried so as to in some way offer an alternative perspective to the perverted thoughts of potential future perpetrators.

Are you suggesting that murder-suicide involving one's wife and kids is something that is NOT seen as abhorrent or is seen as even acceptable?

This type of act is not rational. Whether the man had ongoing mental illness issues or had some kind of psychotic episode, I seriously doubt if the thought of society tut-tutting would have overwhelmed any destructive thoughts or urges or twisted logic he was experiencing.

Suicide is not rational

I fail to see what's not rational about it? Very logical step in certain circumstances.

Quote from: bennydorano on August 31, 2016, 09:12:48 PM
I fail to see what's not rational about it? Very logical step in certain circumstances.

The brain isn't rational when people are suicidal. Problems other people can get out of drag certain people down.
There is usually a solution to even the worst stuff.

Quote from: seafoid on August 31, 2016, 09:37:06 PM

Quote from: bennydorano on August 31, 2016, 09:12:48 PM
I fail to see what's not rational about it? Very logical step in certain circumstances.

The brain isn't rational when people are suicidal. Problems other people can get out of drag certain people down.
There is usually a solution to even the worst stuff.

Its not that its not rational, its a different way of thinking to the conventional.

We usually innately feel usually that preservation of our lives is the most important thing to us, but what if its not, what if you dont have that feeling that your life is important...?

If someone feels that life is not worth living its a perfectly logical action.

Regardless of the motive, mental illness or whatever, the murders were simply wrong on all levels. We can't begin to comprehend the mindset of the person who carried out these deeds. There are five people dead and the thought of someone killing the children as they lay in their bedrooms is sickening and revolting. You couldn't or wouldn't do what was done here to a dog.

Speculating on motives and who done it is a waste of time.
RIP.

I always found this TED talk to be an incredibly powerful insight into the mind of someone who was actively suicidal. The shrunken field of perception is a useful metaphor to describe the so-called 'selfish' nature of suicide.

https://youtu.be/D1QoyTmeAYw

I haven't commented on this to now - and wasn't going to but in my mind the dressing up of this tradgedy is unbelievable by some press and posters. I get depression and suicide on a certain level but what happen here was a man was a psychopath that killed his young children and wife and was controlled to the end of his own life. Disgusting!

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/cavan-murder-suicide-hernamewasclodagh-trends-on-social-media-418960.html

Meanwhile, the head of Women's Aid, Margaret Martin, says that some users of its helpline have been triggered by the tragic event in Cavan.

"A couple of women mentioned the case in Cavan when they phoned our helpline. They found it triggering. We are really aware of the amount of women who are afraid because of this case," said Ms Martin.

Disgrace that the da was buried with the family

The mother and kids didn't deserve to die. The State won't do anything about this issue. So more innocent people will be killed.

this was a barbaric and evil act and shouldn't be dressed up as anything else.

Quote from: mrdeeds on September 04, 2016, 06:17:05 PM

Quote from: seafoid on September 04, 2016, 06:12:51 PM
The mother and kids didn't deserve to die. The State won't do anything about this issue. So more innocent people will be killed.

Out of curiosity what could the state have done?

There has to be action on media reporting of these tragedies.
Support of mental illness is still quite hit and miss. A lot of people won't get help and of these a certain proportion will
be at risk of murdering their families

If it had've happened in inner city Dublin I'd dare say there'd have been a different approach as well.

Quote from: mrdeeds on September 04, 2016, 06:17:05 PM

Quote from: seafoid on September 04, 2016, 06:12:51 PM
The mother and kids didn't deserve to die. The State won't do anything about this issue. So more innocent people will be killed.

Out of curiosity what could the state have done?

Just as confused as you are. Sure it's the states fault. An Irish solution to an Irish problem. It's always someone's else's fault. When people realise we are collectively responsible for mental health issues, we might actually get somewhere.

It doesn't do any good either to simply demonise the man as an evil monster and close the book on it. It has to be analysed.

For all we know, he could have been a loving and caring father and husband for 15 years and simply lost all reason within a short period of time, lost control of rational thinking that ended in this tragedy. We don't know who it could happen to and when. It needs to be dissected so that anyone might possibly recognise the early stages of this mental disintegration within them before it's too late.

An apparent pillar of the community who was middle class can be evil too. Not as many excuses made for random murderers in this country or the countless number of paedophiles, when surely there could be a mental health issue at play in these cases too.

Women's Aid could provide safety planning for such women but said in a statement "what we need is domestic violence homicide reviews".
"We need to learn from that. There are examples of this in the UK where there's a whole practise of domestic violence homicide reviews. We don't know what happened in that house but what we do know is there was someone who took control of four people and decided whether they would live or die, and decided they would die. That sparks real fear in women."
Minister for Children, Katherine Zappone, visiting Women's Aid, said she would welcome any proposals to conduct such research.

Good piece in Belfast Telegraph worth a read.  There would be many people out there with fragile mental health issues, but to do this is something else. 
Agree with ONeil in that until this tragedy is fully analysed from all angles it would be unfair to speculate what caused this

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/stop-making-excuses-for-alan-hawe-he-killed-three-sons-and-wife-with-hatchet-and-knives-35024458.html

Quote from: Ethan Tremblay on September 06, 2016, 09:45:32 AM
Good piece in Belfast Telegraph worth a read.  There would be many people out there with fragile mental health issues, but to do this is something else. 
Agree with ONeil in that until this tragedy is fully analysed from all angles it would be unfair to speculate what caused this

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/stop-making-excuses-for-alan-hawe-he-killed-three-sons-and-wife-with-hatchet-and-knives-35024458.html

That is a super article. Imagine the terror of the mother when she realised what was happening.

Suzanne Breen hits the nail on the head again there, for me she is stand out journalist in the North and her opinion pieces like this are always honest and insightful.

That is a great article.  I heard one of the boys had lots of defensive wounds, but I thought it was the oldest.  To think of what that 6 year old or his mother was feeling in their last minutes is unbearable. 

I don't buy the mental health angle at all, if you are unwell enough to carry out an act as heinous as this then you would not be able to hide it to the level seen here. If you are suffering from a delusional based disorder you can't turn it off and on when required. If you are in the darkest depths of depression that lead you to murder your entire family in cold blood then you couldn't maintain the façade across all settings in your life. Someone would have spotted something or the mask would have slipped. I say this from 14 plus years of experience working within the mental health field.

Every eulogy/ 'let's not judge' about this man should be made in the context of the below...

Using a hatchet and knives does not offer your victims a swift or gentle death. Media reports of the post mortems record that Clodagh suffered defensive injuries suggesting that she fought like a tigress to save her own and her children's lives.

Six-year-old Ryan is also believed to have struggled valiantly to fight off his father. The torment in that house for the last living child - seeing what had happened to his mother and two brothers and knowing he was next - is unimaginable.

The only conceivable defence I could stomach would be somewhere along the lines of Charles Whitman (http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/07/the-brain-on-trial/308520/ ) who murdered 13 people in 1966. His defence was that his brain was fundamentally compromised by a tumour on his Amygdala. Even then his actions didn't come as a bolt from the blue, there were clear warning signs. I am all for increasing societies awareness of mental health issues and as part of my job I deliver training to many people were I passionately advocate on their behalf. However, this whole thing leaves a sour taste in my mouth and Alan Hawe should be remembered for what he was, a cold blooded child/wife killer not someone who should be pitied.

It makes me sick to the pit of my stomach that this evil bastard was afforded a funeral and burial along with the wife and children that he BRUTALLY murdered. I know that if my father had done this I wouldn't want to have shared a funeral or especially be buried with him, mental illness or not!

It also makes me sick that he'll never face justice. I feel nothing but anger towards this 'man' and can't get my head around the whole aftermath, funeral and kind words from the priest.

I read the article above and I've no idea why people think it's good.

Is it not the case that most of the coverage has centred on trying to find an explanation for what happened? If it has been stated that Alan Hawe was a good man in the community etc., surely it's only to highlight how utterly incomprehensible the act was, and not to make him out to be a great fella.

The journalist (ironically given how she' criticising the other coverage) has decided, with no evidence, that Alan Hawe was misogynistic, backed up by the "fact" that it was difficult to get a photo of Clodagh.

Where's the evidence that he was misogynistic?

I have no idea why he did what he did. I cannot comprehend a father hacking his kids to death and I doubt I ever will. But as far as I can see this is a journalist criticising what she perceives as the defending of a killer and at the same time painting a picture of the man based on...............well I don't know what.

Quote from: Esmarelda on September 06, 2016, 12:46:55 PM
I read the article above and I've no idea why people think it's good.

Is it not the case that most of the coverage has centred on trying to find an explanation for what happened? If it has been stated that Alan Hawe was a good man in the community etc., surely it's only to highlight how utterly incomprehensible the act was, and not to make him out to be a great fella.

The journalist (ironically given how she' criticising the other coverage) has decided, with no evidence, that Alan Hawe was misogynistic, backed up by the "fact" that it was difficult to get a photo of Clodagh.

Where's the evidence that he was misogynistic?

I have no idea why he did what he did. I cannot comprehend a father hacking his kids to death and I doubt I ever will. But as far as I can see this is a journalist criticising what she perceives as the defending of a killer and at the same time painting a picture of the man based on...............well I don't know what.

I think her article is good in so far as we judge someone like this Alan Hawe in a one dimensional manner and she's questioning that.

He collected at mass, the priest visited the home, done the gate at the local GAA ground and was a school VP, so he has to be a good husband, father and so forth when really we don't have a clue as he could still do this and be a violent thug.

She is also right to point out that we seem to be looking to explain away his evilness as a one off act of madness, driven by mental illness, but why him and why do we not consider him an evil f**ker who hacked his wife and three children to death and how do we not consider that he may not be a good person to his own family?

We are socially conditioned to an extent to think like this, Breen is right to point out our own failings in this regard.

Quote from: johnneycool on September 06, 2016, 01:12:53 PM

Quote from: Esmarelda on September 06, 2016, 12:46:55 PM
I read the article above and I've no idea why people think it's good.

Is it not the case that most of the coverage has centred on trying to find an explanation for what happened? If it has been stated that Alan Hawe was a good man in the community etc., surely it's only to highlight how utterly incomprehensible the act was, and not to make him out to be a great fella.

The journalist (ironically given how she' criticising the other coverage) has decided, with no evidence, that Alan Hawe was misogynistic, backed up by the "fact" that it was difficult to get a photo of Clodagh.

Where's the evidence that he was misogynistic?

I have no idea why he did what he did. I cannot comprehend a father hacking his kids to death and I doubt I ever will. But as far as I can see this is a journalist criticising what she perceives as the defending of a killer and at the same time painting a picture of the man based on...............well I don't know what.

I think her article is good in so far as we judge someone like this Alan Hawe in a one dimensional manner and she's questioning that.

He collected at mass, the priest visited the home, done the gate at the local GAA ground and was a school VP, so he has to be a good husband, father and so forth when really we don't have a clue as he could still do this and be a violent thug.

She is also right to point out that we seem to be looking to explain away his evilness as a one off act of madness, driven by mental illness, but why him and why do we not consider him an evil f**ker who hacked his wife and three children to death and how do we not consider that he may not be a good person to his own family?

We are socially conditioned to an extent to think like this, Breen is right to point out our own failings in this regard.

If she thinks that people are saying that he must be a good husband, then fair enough. Maybe he was a good husband up until this point. Why would she say he wasn't? Like I said above, any mention of this normality that I've read is to show that this act was completely unexpected as he appeared to be an average man. If there was any indication that this might have happened then this line wouldn't be used. I think she's confusing this with people defending him which I don't think is the case.

As you say, we don't really know why this happened but the journalist throws misogyny into the equation. So it's wrong to suggest that he may have been a normal husband but it's ok to use your platform as journalist to imply that he hated women? And where does the murdering of his children fall into this theory.

If he disliked women then why kill himself?

I think it's a highly irresponsible piece and I'd wonder what she hoped to achieve with it.

Quote from: Ethan Tremblay on September 06, 2016, 09:45:32 AM
Good piece in Belfast Telegraph worth a read.  There would be many people out there with fragile mental health issues, but to do this is something else. 
Agree with ONeil in that until this tragedy is fully analysed from all angles it would be unfair to speculate what caused this

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/stop-making-excuses-for-alan-hawe-he-killed-three-sons-and-wife-with-hatchet-and-knives-35024458.html

Great article.

Quote from: laoislad on September 06, 2016, 02:14:32 PM

Quote from: Ethan Tremblay on September 06, 2016, 09:45:32 AM
Good piece in Belfast Telegraph worth a read.  There would be many people out there with fragile mental health issues, but to do this is something else. 
Agree with ONeil in that until this tragedy is fully analysed from all angles it would be unfair to speculate what caused this

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/stop-making-excuses-for-alan-hawe-he-killed-three-sons-and-wife-with-hatchet-and-knives-35024458.html

Great article.

Don't agree. Over-sensationalist, using language like 'she fought like a tigress to save her own and her children's lives', when she actually had defensive injuries and may not have known that he also intended killing their children. How did the youngest child know the fate of the others, as she suggests? I'm not misogynistic but the journo does seem like she is fitting the story to an agenda of her own.

Quote from: Esmarelda on September 06, 2016, 02:07:51 PM

Quote from: johnneycool on September 06, 2016, 01:12:53 PM

Quote from: Esmarelda on September 06, 2016, 12:46:55 PM
I read the article above and I've no idea why people think it's good.

Is it not the case that most of the coverage has centred on trying to find an explanation for what happened? If it has been stated that Alan Hawe was a good man in the community etc., surely it's only to highlight how utterly incomprehensible the act was, and not to make him out to be a great fella.

The journalist (ironically given how she' criticising the other coverage) has decided, with no evidence, that Alan Hawe was misogynistic, backed up by the "fact" that it was difficult to get a photo of Clodagh.

Where's the evidence that he was misogynistic?

I have no idea why he did what he did. I cannot comprehend a father hacking his kids to death and I doubt I ever will. But as far as I can see this is a journalist criticising what she perceives as the defending of a killer and at the same time painting a picture of the man based on...............well I don't know what.

I think her article is good in so far as we judge someone like this Alan Hawe in a one dimensional manner and she's questioning that.

He collected at mass, the priest visited the home, done the gate at the local GAA ground and was a school VP, so he has to be a good husband, father and so forth when really we don't have a clue as he could still do this and be a violent thug.

She is also right to point out that we seem to be looking to explain away his evilness as a one off act of madness, driven by mental illness, but why him and why do we not consider him an evil f**ker who hacked his wife and three children to death and how do we not consider that he may not be a good person to his own family?

We are socially conditioned to an extent to think like this, Breen is right to point out our own failings in this regard.

If she thinks that people are saying that he must be a good husband, then fair enough. Maybe he was a good husband up until this point. Why would she say he wasn't? Like I said above, any mention of this normality that I've read is to show that this act was completely unexpected as he appeared to be an average man. If there was any indication that this might have happened then this line wouldn't be used. I think she's confusing this with people defending him which I don't think is the case.

As you say, we don't really know why this happened but the journalist throws misogyny into the equation. So it's wrong to suggest that he may have been a normal husband but it's ok to use your platform as journalist to imply that he hated women? And where does the murdering of his children fall into this theory.

If he disliked women then why kill himself?

I think it's a highly irresponsible piece and I'd wonder what she hoped to achieve with it.

Why would he kill his wife ? Breen said he must have thought of her as a possession. That would qualify as misogyny
Like he was some sort of Viking that had to go to the next world with his chattels.

Quote from: mouview on September 06, 2016, 02:41:05 PM

Quote from: laoislad on September 06, 2016, 02:14:32 PM

Quote from: Ethan Tremblay on September 06, 2016, 09:45:32 AM
Good piece in Belfast Telegraph worth a read.  There would be many people out there with fragile mental health issues, but to do this is something else. 
Agree with ONeil in that until this tragedy is fully analysed from all angles it would be unfair to speculate what caused this

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/stop-making-excuses-for-alan-hawe-he-killed-three-sons-and-wife-with-hatchet-and-knives-35024458.html

Great article.

Don't agree. Over-sensationalist, using language like 'she fought like a tigress to save her own and her children's lives', when she actually had defensive injuries and may not have known that he also intended killing their children. How did the youngest child know the fate of the others, as she suggests? I'm not misogynistic but the journo does seem like she is fitting the story to an agenda of her own.

Agree.

I see Hawe as a murderer of 4 innocent victims. As an aside he was also a victim of suicide and obviously had mental health issues, but the latter doesn't, in any minuscule way, forgive the murders imho.

As for the article, it is way too sensationalist and tabloid in style for me.

E.G.: "The eulogising reached such dizzy heights last weekend, that I wondered if Alan Hawe was being canonised along with Mother Teresa."

Really? Did the journalist really confuse Irish people's strong tendency to avoid speaking ill of the dead, with canonisation? Daft hyperbole like that read ridiculously in an article on such a serious and sensitive matter.

Quote from: seafoid on September 06, 2016, 02:58:55 PM

Quote from: Esmarelda on September 06, 2016, 02:07:51 PM

Quote from: johnneycool on September 06, 2016, 01:12:53 PM

Quote from: Esmarelda on September 06, 2016, 12:46:55 PM
I read the article above and I've no idea why people think it's good.

Is it not the case that most of the coverage has centred on trying to find an explanation for what happened? If it has been stated that Alan Hawe was a good man in the community etc., surely it's only to highlight how utterly incomprehensible the act was, and not to make him out to be a great fella.

The journalist (ironically given how she' criticising the other coverage) has decided, with no evidence, that Alan Hawe was misogynistic, backed up by the "fact" that it was difficult to get a photo of Clodagh.

Where's the evidence that he was misogynistic?

I have no idea why he did what he did. I cannot comprehend a father hacking his kids to death and I doubt I ever will. But as far as I can see this is a journalist criticising what she perceives as the defending of a killer and at the same time painting a picture of the man based on...............well I don't know what.

I think her article is good in so far as we judge someone like this Alan Hawe in a one dimensional manner and she's questioning that.

He collected at mass, the priest visited the home, done the gate at the local GAA ground and was a school VP, so he has to be a good husband, father and so forth when really we don't have a clue as he could still do this and be a violent thug.

She is also right to point out that we seem to be looking to explain away his evilness as a one off act of madness, driven by mental illness, but why him and why do we not consider him an evil f**ker who hacked his wife and three children to death and how do we not consider that he may not be a good person to his own family?

We are socially conditioned to an extent to think like this, Breen is right to point out our own failings in this regard.

If she thinks that people are saying that he must be a good husband, then fair enough. Maybe he was a good husband up until this point. Why would she say he wasn't? Like I said above, any mention of this normality that I've read is to show that this act was completely unexpected as he appeared to be an average man. If there was any indication that this might have happened then this line wouldn't be used. I think she's confusing this with people defending him which I don't think is the case.

As you say, we don't really know why this happened but the journalist throws misogyny into the equation. So it's wrong to suggest that he may have been a normal husband but it's ok to use your platform as journalist to imply that he hated women? And where does the murdering of his children fall into this theory.

If he disliked women then why kill himself?

I think it's a highly irresponsible piece and I'd wonder what she hoped to achieve with it.

Why would he kill his wife ? Breen said he must have thought of her as a possession. That would qualify as misogyny
Like he was some sort of Viking that had to go to the next world with his chattels.

He must have? Based on what? We can all have a guess at why he did it. Is it worthy of print?

Quote from: Esmarelda on September 06, 2016, 03:51:25 PM

Quote from: seafoid on September 06, 2016, 02:58:55 PM

Quote from: Esmarelda on September 06, 2016, 02:07:51 PM

Quote from: johnneycool on September 06, 2016, 01:12:53 PM

Quote from: Esmarelda on September 06, 2016, 12:46:55 PM
I read the article above and I've no idea why people think it's good.

Is it not the case that most of the coverage has centred on trying to find an explanation for what happened? If it has been stated that Alan Hawe was a good man in the community etc., surely it's only to highlight how utterly incomprehensible the act was, and not to make him out to be a great fella.

The journalist (ironically given how she' criticising the other coverage) has decided, with no evidence, that Alan Hawe was misogynistic, backed up by the "fact" that it was difficult to get a photo of Clodagh.

Where's the evidence that he was misogynistic?

I have no idea why he did what he did. I cannot comprehend a father hacking his kids to death and I doubt I ever will. But as far as I can see this is a journalist criticising what she perceives as the defending of a killer and at the same time painting a picture of the man based on...............well I don't know what.

I think her article is good in so far as we judge someone like this Alan Hawe in a one dimensional manner and she's questioning that.

He collected at mass, the priest visited the home, done the gate at the local GAA ground and was a school VP, so he has to be a good husband, father and so forth when really we don't have a clue as he could still do this and be a violent thug.

She is also right to point out that we seem to be looking to explain away his evilness as a one off act of madness, driven by mental illness, but why him and why do we not consider him an evil f**ker who hacked his wife and three children to death and how do we not consider that he may not be a good person to his own family?

We are socially conditioned to an extent to think like this, Breen is right to point out our own failings in this regard.

If she thinks that people are saying that he must be a good husband, then fair enough. Maybe he was a good husband up until this point. Why would she say he wasn't? Like I said above, any mention of this normality that I've read is to show that this act was completely unexpected as he appeared to be an average man. If there was any indication that this might have happened then this line wouldn't be used. I think she's confusing this with people defending him which I don't think is the case.

As you say, we don't really know why this happened but the journalist throws misogyny into the equation. So it's wrong to suggest that he may have been a normal husband but it's ok to use your platform as journalist to imply that he hated women? And where does the murdering of his children fall into this theory.

If he disliked women then why kill himself?

I think it's a highly irresponsible piece and I'd wonder what she hoped to achieve with it.

Why would he kill his wife ? Breen said he must have thought of her as a possession. That would qualify as misogyny
Like he was some sort of Viking that had to go to the next world with his chattels.

He must have? Based on what? We can all have a guess at why he did it. Is it worthy of print?

The fact that he killed her. Why didn't he kill himself and leave it at that ? I think there are 400 suicides a year. The vast majority don't murder their family.

[/quote]

Why would he kill his wife ? Breen said he must have thought of her as a possession. That would qualify as misogyny
Like he was some sort of Viking that had to go to the next world with his chattels.
[/quote]
He must have? Based on what? We can all have a guess at why he did it. Is it worthy of print?
[/quote]The fact that he killed her. Why didn't he kill himself and leave it at that ? I think there are 400 suicides a year. The vast majority don't murder their family.
[/quote]
So you're saying that the only possible reason he killed his wife is because he considered her his possession?

Quote from: Esmarelda on September 06, 2016, 05:19:10 PM

Why would he kill his wife ? Breen said he must have thought of her as a possession. That would qualify as misogyny
Like he was some sort of Viking that had to go to the next world with his chattels.
[/quote]
He must have? Based on what? We can all have a guess at why he did it. Is it worthy of print?
[/quote]The fact that he killed her. Why didn't he kill himself and leave it at that ? I think there are 400 suicides a year. The vast majority don't murder their family.
[/quote]
So you're saying that the only possible reason he killed his wife is because he considered her his possession?
[/quote]
Would explain why the kids were also killed. Any other theory? 

Next week,in the Belfast Telegraph,Ruth Dudley Edwards blames the IRA and Northern Catholics for this.

The Belfast Telegraph and other publications have done the story to death at this stage and in a few weeks will have movef on while a community and family will still have to deal with this.

For those that are interested...

I investigated a bit online and had a bit of a think about this mental health in relation to the law problem as well..

Anyway it seems that the difference between mental disorders in terms of culpability to laws is that if the disorder is only associated with criminal acts then it cannot be deemed criminally insane.

So in other words if a sociopath unremorsefully goes around assaulting people for his own benefit he is deemed responsible for his actions, whereas a schizophrenic who thinks that those same people are alien agents and he does the same thing to them he is deemed not responsible.

Seems rather weird reasoning to get to that place and widely variable based on interpretation, opinion and perhaps just personal belief.

To me its obvious where we want to get to is if the person made a conscious choice then its a crime. However how do you know who makes a conscious choice and who doesnt? I believe that everyone makes a conscious decision to some degree or another no matter what their condition, so this leads to another dilemma...

What if the person didnt understand the consequences? This is another grey area and impossible to truely know but lets assume we do have a fair idea from their condition.

I think this particular incident the gentleman was aware of what he was doing and the consequences of it in-spite of his condition.

Although I had mentioned schizophrenics earlier and someone with that condition could be aware of the consequences make a conscious decision to commit a crime and do it anyway such is their warped sense of reality... there is certainly no one size fits all when it comes to mental health and justice.

Quote from: muppet on September 06, 2016, 03:09:13 PM

Quote from: mouview on September 06, 2016, 02:41:05 PM

Quote from: laoislad on September 06, 2016, 02:14:32 PM

Quote from: Ethan Tremblay on September 06, 2016, 09:45:32 AM
Good piece in Belfast Telegraph worth a read.  There would be many people out there with fragile mental health issues, but to do this is something else. 
Agree with ONeil in that until this tragedy is fully analysed from all angles it would be unfair to speculate what caused this

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/stop-making-excuses-for-alan-hawe-he-killed-three-sons-and-wife-with-hatchet-and-knives-35024458.html

Great article.

Don't agree. Over-sensationalist, using language like 'she fought like a tigress to save her own and her children's lives', when she actually had defensive injuries and may not have known that he also intended killing their children. How did the youngest child know the fate of the others, as she suggests? I'm not misogynistic but the journo does seem like she is fitting the story to an agenda of her own.

Agree.

I see Hawe as a murderer of 4 innocent victims. As an aside he was also a victim of suicide and obviously had mental health issues, but the latter doesn't, in any minuscule way, forgive the murders imho.

As for the article, it is way too sensationalist and tabloid in style for me.

E.G.: "The eulogising reached such dizzy heights last weekend, that I wondered if Alan Hawe was being canonised along with Mother Teresa."

Really? Did the journalist really confuse Irish people's strong tendency to avoid speaking ill of the dead, with canonisation? Daft hyperbole like that read ridiculously in an article on such a serious and sensitive matter.

Would agree, good post Muppet. The line quoted about Mother Teresa smacks of awful tabloid scrap.

The article was written from a female point of view. And a lot of women were scared by the story. Because it will happen again. Battery is bad enough but the slaughter of the family by the father is a different level of violence altogether. And nothing is done to investigate these cases. So women aren't even safe in their homes.

Quote from: seafoid on September 06, 2016, 10:17:59 PM
The article was written from a female point of view. And a lot of women were scared by the story. Because it will happen again. Battery is bad enough but the slaughter of the family by the father is a different level of violence altogether. And nothing is done to investigate these cases. So women aren't even safe in their homes.

And what about Mary Keegan who stabbed her own two sons before committing suicide? She wasn't a man and not the only woman to carry out an atrocity. Also like Alan Hawe people spoke of her great character.

Quote from: mrdeeds on September 06, 2016, 10:45:46 PM

Quote from: seafoid on September 06, 2016, 10:17:59 PM
The article was written from a female point of view. And a lot of women were scared by the story. Because it will happen again. Battery is bad enough but the slaughter of the family by the father is a different level of violence altogether. And nothing is done to investigate these cases. So women aren't even safe in their homes.

And what about Mary Keegan who stabbed her own two sons before committing suicide? She wasn't a man and not the only woman to carry out an atrocity. Also like Alan Hawe people spoke of her great character.

There are too many people with agendas willing to twist a horrible story like this to suit themselves. Starting with the media.......

Quote from: mrdeeds on September 06, 2016, 10:45:46 PM

Quote from: seafoid on September 06, 2016, 10:17:59 PM
The article was written from a female point of view. And a lot of women were scared by the story. Because it will happen again. Battery is bad enough but the slaughter of the family by the father is a different level of violence altogether. And nothing is done to investigate these cases. So women aren't even safe in their homes.

And what about Mary Keegan who stabbed her own two sons before committing suicide? She wasn't a man and not the only woman to carry out an atrocity. Also like Alan Hawe people spoke of her great character.

How many of the 30 or so murder suicide cases had women killing the kids ?

Quote from: mrdeeds on September 06, 2016, 10:45:46 PM

Quote from: seafoid on September 06, 2016, 10:17:59 PM
The article was written from a female point of view. And a lot of women were scared by the story. Because it will happen again. Battery is bad enough but the slaughter of the family by the father is a different level of violence altogether. And nothing is done to investigate these cases. So women aren't even safe in their homes.

And what about Mary Keegan who stabbed her own two sons before committing suicide? She wasn't a man and not the only woman to carry out an atrocity. Also like Alan Hawe people spoke of her great character.

Good point.

It's seems like there's no end to lengths people will go to demonise Hawe in pursuit of their own ends. I've so far seen the Irish Government and the viewpoint on domestic abuse been blamed for this atrocity. It's only a matter of time until the Israeli's, the DUP and Donald Trump get the blame for it too.

As Mr Deeds said the last case of this was Mary Keegan who stabbed her two sons. Where were the feminist outcry when this occurred? f**k me a week ago supposedly this nation wasn't doing enough to help people with mental illness and we stigmatise and shun people who suffer from it. A week later all of a sudden the prevailing mood is that there's too much sympathy for people with mental issues and the nation is too ready to excuse murder for the sake of it.

Where's the balance in today's media? Where's the objective opinion? Where's the consideration of different views? Where's the intelligence to allow your beliefs to be challenged and corrected?

It's like the whole world is full of Kate Hopkins, each in competition with the last to make their outbursts more profane, more damning, more controversial than the last, in the increasingly correct assumption that "he who shouts loudest wins". That's my problem with the world in the last 5-6 years. The proliferation of social media has allowed a whole chorus of idiots to vent their worthless opinions, to be latched onto by the greater mass of idiots who present these inane beliefs as a measured argument.

This clamour of unchallenged, unproven, unsympathetic rhetoric has lead to both the successful Brexit campaign and the rise of Donald Trump as a contender to be the most powerful man in the world. It's present even here in the particularly small fish bowl of the GAA. Spillane tells us that the Northern counties play "puke football" and Brolly pontificates that Mayo are a team of serial cheaters. People gravitate towards the side that reflects them best and the chance of sensible debate is lost.

There's no room for reflection anymore. The only rule of the internet is mob rule, it's ugly, it's indiscriminate and it's damaging. I'm tired of this shit.

Great post Trileacman.

(http://i.giphy.com/3o7qDSOvfaCO9b3MlO.gif)

Trileacman wins shut the thread!

Quote from: trileacman on September 06, 2016, 11:23:04 PM

Quote from: mrdeeds on September 06, 2016, 10:45:46 PM

Quote from: seafoid on September 06, 2016, 10:17:59 PM
The article was written from a female point of view. And a lot of women were scared by the story. Because it will happen again. Battery is bad enough but the slaughter of the family by the father is a different level of violence altogether. And nothing is done to investigate these cases. So women aren't even safe in their homes.

And what about Mary Keegan who stabbed her own two sons before committing suicide? She wasn't a man and not the only woman to carry out an atrocity. Also like Alan Hawe people spoke of her great character.

Good point.

It's seems like there's no end to lengths people will go to demonise Hawe in pursuit of their own ends. I've so far seen the Irish Government and the viewpoint on domestic abuse been blamed for this atrocity. It's only a matter of time until the Israeli's, the DUP and Donald Trump get the blame for it too.

As Mr Deeds said the last case of this was Mary Keegan who stabbed her two sons. Where were the feminist outcry when this occurred? f**k me a week ago supposedly this nation wasn't doing enough to help people with mental illness and we stigmatise and shun people who suffer from it. A week later all of a sudden the prevailing mood is that there's too much sympathy for people with mental issues and the nation is too ready to excuse murder for the sake of it.

Where's the balance in today's media? Where's the objective opinion? Where's the consideration of different views? Where's the intelligence to allow your beliefs to be challenged and corrected?

It's like the whole world is full of Kate Hopkins, each in competition with the last to make their outbursts more profane, more damning, more controversial than the last, in the increasingly correct assumption that "he who shouts loudest wins". That's my problem with the world in the last 5-6 years. The proliferation of social media has allowed a whole chorus of idiots to vent their worthless opinions, to be latched onto by the greater mass of idiots who present these inane beliefs as a measured argument.

This clamour of unchallenged, unproven, unsympathetic rhetoric has lead to both the successful Brexit campaign and the rise of Donald Trump as a contender to be the most powerful man in the world. It's present even here in the particularly small fish bowl of the GAA. Spillane tells us that the Northern counties play "puke football" and Brolly pontificates that Mayo are a team of serial cheaters. People gravitate towards the side that reflects them best and the chance of sensible debate is lost.

There's no room for reflection anymore. The only rule of the internet is mob rule, it's ugly, it's indiscriminate and it's damaging. I'm tired of this shit.

How on earth can you trivialise this local horror to the Middle East, the USA, and to the DUP , in one sweeping statement .

This was a horrific murder of 3 children and a mother.

What he did with himself afterwards is a suicide.

What he did before was cold blooded murder of 4 innocent people who died in horrific circumstances.

Let's not loose sight of that fact.........

Good to see a lot of logical posts in the last few pages. I'm talking about those from Mr. Deeds, Rossfan and Omaghjoe.

Seafoid, you can have any amount of theories on why it happened but please could you state them as such and stop suggesting that a certain theory must be true because of the lack of alternatives.

Give her dixie, you've stated that what happened was the "cold-blooded" murder of four people. This suggests that it was carried out without emotion which you cannot say with any certainty.

Social media is changing the way old media work. More voices are joining the mix. It is pretty clear from this story.

Quote from: seafoid on September 07, 2016, 10:49:18 AM
Social media is changing the way old media work. More voices are joining the mix. It is pretty clear from this story.

Yes, and more uninformed voices, adding copious amounts of stupidity.

Quote from: AZOffaly on September 07, 2016, 10:58:31 AM

Quote from: seafoid on September 07, 2016, 10:49:18 AM
Social media is changing the way old media work. More voices are joining the mix. It is pretty clear from this story.

Yes, and more uninformed voices, adding copious amounts of stupidity.

The ones that make it into the newspapers are not stupid

Quote from: seafoid on September 07, 2016, 11:17:06 AM

Quote from: AZOffaly on September 07, 2016, 10:58:31 AM

Quote from: seafoid on September 07, 2016, 10:49:18 AM
Social media is changing the way old media work. More voices are joining the mix. It is pretty clear from this story.

Yes, and more uninformed voices, adding copious amounts of stupidity.

The ones that make it into the newspapers are not stupid

Some of them are. And some of them are just blowhards. And some are just controversial for the sake of it. There's very little good journalism any more.

Quote from: seafoid on September 07, 2016, 11:17:06 AM

Quote from: AZOffaly on September 07, 2016, 10:58:31 AM

Quote from: seafoid on September 07, 2016, 10:49:18 AM
Social media is changing the way old media work. More voices are joining the mix. It is pretty clear from this story.

Yes, and more uninformed voices, adding copious amounts of stupidity.

The ones that make it into the newspapers are not stupid

Tony's made it into print before.........

Quote from: seafoid on September 07, 2016, 11:17:06 AM

Quote from: AZOffaly on September 07, 2016, 10:58:31 AM

Quote from: seafoid on September 07, 2016, 10:49:18 AM
Social media is changing the way old media work. More voices are joining the mix. It is pretty clear from this story.

Yes, and more uninformed voices, adding copious amounts of stupidity.

The ones that make it into the newspapers are not stupid

Richard Littlejohn
Katie Hopkins
Piers Morgan

I'm starting to think Seafoid might be as much a WUM as TFearon.

Quote from: Esmarelda on September 07, 2016, 12:36:17 PM
I'm starting to think Seafoid might be as much a WUM as TFearon.

Only took 13000 posts to work that out!

Quote from: No wides on September 07, 2016, 12:37:54 PM

Quote from: Esmarelda on September 07, 2016, 12:36:17 PM
I'm starting to think Seafoid might be as much a WUM as TFearon.

Only took 13000 posts to work that out!

I was only around for the last couple of thousand.

Gardai have confirmed the murder weapon Alan Hawe used to butcher his wife, Clodagh.

An axe.

Quote from: LeoMc on September 07, 2016, 12:28:48 PM

Quote from: seafoid on September 07, 2016, 11:17:06 AM

Quote from: AZOffaly on September 07, 2016, 10:58:31 AM

Quote from: seafoid on September 07, 2016, 10:49:18 AM
Social media is changing the way old media work. More voices are joining the mix. It is pretty clear from this story.

Yes, and more uninformed voices, adding copious amounts of stupidity.

The ones that make it into the newspapers are not stupid

Richard Littlejohn
Katie Hopkins
Piers Morgan

Morgan and Littleton have the smarts. Hopkins is dogshit

This, in my opinion, is a much better summary of how the case has been reported http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/how-hernamewasclodagh-missed-the-media-s-real-failing-1.2785772?utm_source=lunchtime_digest&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=news_digest

looks like alan hawe was about to be outed over something before he murdered his family. this story just gets sadder and sadder  :(

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/clodagh-boys-never-stood-chance-9367017

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/warm-loving-bright-and-capable-mother-and-sister-of-tragic-clodagh-hawe-move-to-help-women-living-in-fear-35265105.html

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/alan-hawes-family-say-they-did-not-delay-exhumation-of-his-body-35701491.html

The family were all buried together side by side in the same plot in the small graveyard in St Mary's Church in the town of Castlerahan.
But earlier today Alan Hawe's body was was exhumed and later cremated in Dublin.
Now, in a statement released to Independent.ie, his family say that they have been the subject of threats from anonymous persons since the tragedy.

Glad to see this. Like a lot of people I was completely baffled and felt angry at him being given a funeral and burial with the family that he murdered in such a brutal way.

Was there ever any reason given why he did what he did?

There seems to be sparse information as to the motives of Alan Hawe. A previous article had talked about how he was about to have a 'fall from grace.' An inquest is set to start towards the end of the year.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/coroner-s-court/clodagh-hawe-and-her-three-sons-were-unlawfully-killed-jury-finds-1.3332363

I read that at lunch, well just about was able to read it, you wonder what happens in someones head to make them do something like that to their own family

Quote from: JimStynes on May 11, 2017, 11:28:37 PM
Was there ever any reason given why he did what he did?

There was today

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/read-in-full-family-of-clodagh-hawe-release-statement-after-inquest-verdict-returned-36421433.html

"The inquest does not address why Alan Hawe committed this savagery but his counsellor has said that he was concerned about his position as 'a pillar of the community' and we are aware that he was concerned at his imminent fall from that position and the breakdown of his marriage.

Beyond words..

The toughest read I have had in a long time. Horrendous! That poor woman and kids, sickening to think what the had to endure! :'(

Quote from: Minder on December 19, 2017, 01:56:29 PM
I read that at lunch, well just about was able to read it, you wonder what happens in someones head to make them do something like that to their own family

Well, from those articles he appears to have bad depression and some kind of delusional, psychotic issues. But, as often happens with mental health, it goes undiagnosed and untreated and, in the extreme cases, innocent people get hurt or die.

It reminds me of a quote from Margaret Atwood. Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them.

Quote from: J70 on December 19, 2017, 03:58:22 PM

Quote from: Minder on December 19, 2017, 01:56:29 PM
I read that at lunch, well just about was able to read it, you wonder what happens in someones head to make them do something like that to their own family

Well, from those articles he appears to have bad depression and some kind of delusional, psychotic issues. But, as often happens with mental health, it goes undiagnosed and untreated and, in the extreme cases, innocent people get hurt or die.

So he was visiting a therapist and doctor who hadn't diagnosed him with anything apart from stress. But retrospectively another doctor diagnosed him as suffering from depression and psychosis. Was this diagnosis based on the additional actions of murdering his family and suicide?

The point Im getting at is does that diagnosis diminish his responsibility?
.....And could he plead accordingly at a murder trial if he hadn't committed suicide?

Also a murder trial would doubtless have given another perspective of being a man being overwhelmed with pride and jealousy who snapped because his wife was leaving him, killed her in a rage and then callously killed his children so they would never know the monster he was.

Can't even bring myself to read this story. So so sad to see them wee kids smiling in pictures knowing what happened to them.

Quote from: omaghjoe on December 19, 2017, 07:22:00 PM

Quote from: J70 on December 19, 2017, 03:58:22 PM

Quote from: Minder on December 19, 2017, 01:56:29 PM
I read that at lunch, well just about was able to read it, you wonder what happens in someones head to make them do something like that to their own family

Well, from those articles he appears to have bad depression and some kind of delusional, psychotic issues. But, as often happens with mental health, it goes undiagnosed and untreated and, in the extreme cases, innocent people get hurt or die.

So he was visiting a therapist and doctor who hadn't diagnosed him with anything apart from stress. But retrospectively another doctor diagnosed him as suffering from depression and psychosis. Was this diagnosis based on the additional actions of murdering his family and suicide?

The point Im getting at is does that diagnosis diminish his responsibility?
.....And could he plead accordingly at a murder trial if he hadn't committed suicide?

Also a murder trial would doubtless have given another perspective of being a man being overwhelmed with pride and jealousy who snapped because his wife was leaving him, killed her in a rage and then callously killed his children so they would never know the monster he was.

You may be more familiar with the particulars of this case than me - as I wrote, I was making a statement based on the two articles posted earlier.

Speaking in general though (not necessarily to this case), the bolded bit is always the tough question. If he was suffering from some kind of psychotic breakdown, whether or not it was exacerbated by his pending marriage break-up, where does his responsibility begin and end?

No doubt some people try to falsely plead insanity and the bar is set high to prevent that, but is it just to hold someone accountable for something
directly caused by deteriorating mental health, something over which they might not have any control?

Society demands someone pay the price, but that doesn't mean justice is always done, even if the person who committed the deed is the one held responsible.

Is the verdict not creating even more stigma for depression or anxiety sufferers?

Quote from: J70 on December 19, 2017, 07:46:17 PM

Quote from: omaghjoe on December 19, 2017, 07:22:00 PM

Quote from: J70 on December 19, 2017, 03:58:22 PM

Quote from: Minder on December 19, 2017, 01:56:29 PM
I read that at lunch, well just about was able to read it, you wonder what happens in someones head to make them do something like that to their own family

Well, from those articles he appears to have bad depression and some kind of delusional, psychotic issues. But, as often happens with mental health, it goes undiagnosed and untreated and, in the extreme cases, innocent people get hurt or die.

So he was visiting a therapist and doctor who hadn't diagnosed him with anything apart from stress. But retrospectively another doctor diagnosed him as suffering from depression and psychosis. Was this diagnosis based on the additional actions of murdering his family and suicide?

The point Im getting at is does that diagnosis diminish his responsibility?
.....And could he plead accordingly at a murder trial if he hadn't committed suicide?

Also a murder trial would doubtless have given another perspective of being a man being overwhelmed with pride and jealousy who snapped because his wife was leaving him, killed her in a rage and then callously killed his children so they would never know the monster he was.

You may be more familiar with the particulars of this case than me - as I wrote, I was making a statement based on the two articles posted earlier.

Speaking in general though (not necessarily to this case), the bolded bit is always the tough question. If he was suffering from some kind of psychotic breakdown, whether or not it was exacerbated by his pending marriage break-up, where does his responsibility begin and end?

No doubt some people try to falsely plead insanity and the bar is set high to prevent that, but is it just to hold someone accountable for something
directly caused by deteriorating mental health, something over which they might not have any control?

Society demands someone pay the price, but that doesn't mean justice is always done, even if the person who committed the deed is the one held responsible.

I dunno enuff to express a full opinion on this case J70 but I'm defo starting to veer in one direction.

We've all experienced a blind rage with crazy irrational thoughts but we usually hold back from following thru.   

If the suicide had failed he would be looking at a long jail sentence.  Sanjay? someone was married to a woma  from Mayo. He killed his 2 sons and attempted suicide after he racked up.gambling losses. That triggered a psychotic episode. No excuse under the law.

Quote from: seafoid on December 20, 2017, 08:12:19 AM
If the suicide had failed he would be looking at a long jail sentence.  Sanjay? someone was married to a woma  from Mayo. He killed his 2 sons and attempted suicide after he racked up.gambling losses. That triggered a psychotic episode. No excuse under the law.

Would he though?? No expert by any means, but if he claimed insanity would he not have been given a vastly reduced sentence?  Served in a mental inst?

Quote from: Franko on December 20, 2017, 08:22:57 AM

Quote from: seafoid on December 20, 2017, 08:12:19 AM
If the suicide had failed he would be looking at a long jail sentence.  Sanjay? someone was married to a woma  from Mayo. He killed his 2 sons and attempted suicide after he racked up.gambling losses. That triggered a psychotic episode. No excuse under the law.

Would he though?? No expert by any means, but if he claimed insanity would he not have been given a vastly reduced sentence?  Served in a mental inst?

Sanjeev Chada got life. He killed his 2 sons

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/heartbroken-mum-kathleen-chada-whose-11124609

Interesting discussion with regards to the responsibility of the perpetrator, although I should state that it's completely secondary to the unimaginable tragedy that has hit the family and friends of the four deceased members of the Hawe family.

My thoughts on it were that no person could murder their children unless they were suffering from a mental illness. I know that's a very vague statement and it's not supposed to excuse any such act, but it's what I felt. There was a lady on Pat Kenny this morning, who appeared to be an expert of some sort, who suggested as much, at least in the vast majority of cases.

The psychologist in this case also feels that Alan Hawe suffered from a depressive condition which then developed into a psychotic act that day.

So when it comes to the question of what would have happened if he had failed to kill himself I wonder if he should be "punished". I'd have thought when people commit a crime worthy of jail time, the time is served for a combination of reasons; punishment, to take them out of society in case they repeat offend and rehabilitation. Would any of these applied to Alan Hawe if he had survived? Would he be better off in a mental institution? Is it unimaginable that his wife's family would ever have to see him free again?

Then after wondering all that, I searched for the inquest on the Chada boys' deaths and my initial thoughts seem to be dispelled. I see no professional opinion that Sanjeev Chada suffered from any mental illness. He had money issues but there seems to be little other information on why he may have done what he did. Of course, perhaps he did suffer a psychotic episode similar to Alan Hawe, but it definitely has changed my perspective on the whole case.

Quote from: omaghjoe on December 20, 2017, 04:17:57 AM

Quote from: J70 on December 19, 2017, 07:46:17 PM

Quote from: omaghjoe on December 19, 2017, 07:22:00 PM

Quote from: J70 on December 19, 2017, 03:58:22 PM

Quote from: Minder on December 19, 2017, 01:56:29 PM
I read that at lunch, well just about was able to read it, you wonder what happens in someones head to make them do something like that to their own family

Well, from those articles he appears to have bad depression and some kind of delusional, psychotic issues. But, as often happens with mental health, it goes undiagnosed and untreated and, in the extreme cases, innocent people get hurt or die.

So he was visiting a therapist and doctor who hadn't diagnosed him with anything apart from stress. But retrospectively another doctor diagnosed him as suffering from depression and psychosis. Was this diagnosis based on the additional actions of murdering his family and suicide?

The point Im getting at is does that diagnosis diminish his responsibility?
.....And could he plead accordingly at a murder trial if he hadn't committed suicide?

Also a murder trial would doubtless have given another perspective of being a man being overwhelmed with pride and jealousy who snapped because his wife was leaving him, killed her in a rage and then callously killed his children so they would never know the monster he was.

You may be more familiar with the particulars of this case than me - as I wrote, I was making a statement based on the two articles posted earlier.

Speaking in general though (not necessarily to this case), the bolded bit is always the tough question. If he was suffering from some kind of psychotic breakdown, whether or not it was exacerbated by his pending marriage break-up, where does his responsibility begin and end?

No doubt some people try to falsely plead insanity and the bar is set high to prevent that, but is it just to hold someone accountable for something
directly caused by deteriorating mental health, something over which they might not have any control?

Society demands someone pay the price, but that doesn't mean justice is always done, even if the person who committed the deed is the one held responsible.

I dunno enuff to express a full opinion on this case J70 but I'm defo starting to veer in one direction.

We've all experienced a blind rage with crazy irrational thoughts but we usually hold back from following thru.

Of course, but that's not what I'm talking about. In my craziest rage I've still personally been well aware of right and wrong and consequences, no matter how much I might have wanted to lash out at someone or something. I'm talking about people experiencing delusions and warped perceptions of reality and so on. Has the "I was very angry" defense ever actually worked for someone in terms of diminished responsibility?

I would qualify all of the above though in that I am about as far from an expert on mental illness as you can get (personal, minor OCD issues aside).

Quote from: omaghjoe on December 20, 2017, 04:17:57 AM

Quote from: J70 on December 19, 2017, 07:46:17 PM

Quote from: omaghjoe on December 19, 2017, 07:22:00 PM

Quote from: J70 on December 19, 2017, 03:58:22 PM

Quote from: Minder on December 19, 2017, 01:56:29 PM
I read that at lunch, well just about was able to read it, you wonder what happens in someones head to make them do something like that to their own family

Well, from those articles he appears to have bad depression and some kind of delusional, psychotic issues. But, as often happens with mental health, it goes undiagnosed and untreated and, in the extreme cases, innocent people get hurt or die.

So he was visiting a therapist and doctor who hadn't diagnosed him with anything apart from stress. But retrospectively another doctor diagnosed him as suffering from depression and psychosis. Was this diagnosis based on the additional actions of murdering his family and suicide?

The point Im getting at is does that diagnosis diminish his responsibility?
.....And could he plead accordingly at a murder trial if he hadn't committed suicide?

Also a murder trial would doubtless have given another perspective of being a man being overwhelmed with pride and jealousy who snapped because his wife was leaving him, killed her in a rage and then callously killed his children so they would never know the monster he was.

You may be more familiar with the particulars of this case than me - as I wrote, I was making a statement based on the two articles posted earlier.

Speaking in general though (not necessarily to this case), the bolded bit is always the tough question. If he was suffering from some kind of psychotic breakdown, whether or not it was exacerbated by his pending marriage break-up, where does his responsibility begin and end?

No doubt some people try to falsely plead insanity and the bar is set high to prevent that, but is it just to hold someone accountable for something
directly caused by deteriorating mental health, something over which they might not have any control?

Society demands someone pay the price, but that doesn't mean justice is always done, even if the person who committed the deed is the one held responsible.

I dunno enuff to express a full opinion on this case J70 but I'm defo starting to veer in one direction.

We've all experienced a blind rage with crazy irrational thoughts but we usually hold back from following thru.

Blind rage, anger etc is not the same as having some mental health issue though.  I have always knew right from wrong and been aware of the consequences of my actions no mater how angry I have been, but then again I haven't suffered with a serious mental illness.  You often hear people calling those who commit suicide as selfish, with counter arguments being that it was the illness that caused them to do it and not their fault.  Should this attitude be taken with someone like Hawe?

if your defense is insanity and that defense is accepted by a jury then you are found not guilty of the crime you are charged with.
in most cases where this happen you are then committed to a psychiatric institution until such a time as you are no longer insane.
this could be a week or it could be 50 years, or never.
most people who have committed a murder and been found insane have ended up spending a long long time in psychiatric care, often much longer then they would have spent  in jail for murder.

there are exceptions to this of course, your man Gallagher  being one.

the bar is set very high to be considered insane when committing your crime. it is quite rare and in the vast majority of cases you would not need to be a professional to see that the person had suffered a complete psychotic breakdown. its a jury that decides ultimately, not the treating doctors so its rare that the accused can ''fool'' everyone into thinking they were out of their mind at the time.

A lot of the murder suicide cases involve relationship breakdown  and mental illness involving catastrophisation. It isn't rational.

Why did Hawe not just kill himself ?

Nothing will be done about it nationally . So there will be more cases.

Quote from: seafoid on December 20, 2017, 11:57:23 AM
A lot of the murder suicide cases involve relationship breakdown  and mental illness involving catastrophisation. It isn't rational.

Why did Hawe not just kill himself ?

Nothing will be done about it nationally . So there will be more cases.

But what do you do?

Is there a linear or predictable path from depression or specific signs to senseless murder?

When does society and the government step in?

Its the same in the US with mentally ill people buying guns legally.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/coroner-s-court/alan-hawe-left-note-asking-that-he-not-be-forgiven-1.3333133

Hawe (40) acknowledged the brutal nature of his quadruple murder in a letter addressed to his parents, his two brothers and his wife's mother and sister.

The five-page letter, running over three A4 sheets, was written, it is suspected, after Hawe killed Clodagh (39) with a knife and axe in a downstairs living room and Liam (13), Niall (11) and Ryan (6) with a knife in their beds upstairs.

Hawe left further writing, at times disjointed, on a note and an envelope that contained the letter. He wrote on another envelope that he taped inside the back door of the house: "Please do not come in. Please call the gardaí."

He then took his own life in the hallway of the home.

In the notes left on the kitchen table, Hawe apologised repeatedly for his actions but said he had no other choice. He asked that he not be forgiven.

"I am sorry for how I murdered them all but I simply had no other way," he wrote.

The school vice-principal explained why he had carried out the murders, questioning how his sons could cope with his suicide and saying it was easier that he had killed them.

"I am sorry for my brutality but I had no other way," he wrote.

Psychotic symptoms

Prof Harry Kennedy, clinical director of the Central Mental Hospital, told the second day of the inquest into the deaths of the family that Hawe was mentally troubled and descended into psychotic symptoms at the time of the killings.

He said that somebody who, like Hawe, was undergoing a worsening mental crisis into psychotic episodes would imagine some impending catastrophe about to befall them and from which there was no return. However, while there may be some basis in fact in the person's worrying, their illness "blew it beyond all proportion"

All three boys were stabbed or slashed in the throat, rendering them incapable of crying out. Deputy State Pathologist Dr Michael Curtis speculated that Clodagh, who was killed with an axe and knife to the head and neck, and the eldest boy Liam, may have been attacked first because they posed a bigger threat of fighting back.

Cavan coroner Dr Mary Flanagan declined to disclose the contents of Hawe's notes, though she gave access to the six female and one male members of the jury.

In his notes, Hawe addressed his anxieties over his performance as a teacher at his school and how he believed his students perceived him and his work. At one point, he refers to how people had looked at him over the summer.

The inquest heard that Hawe had told his GP that he was stressed because of a conflict with a colleague at the school. He was due to return to his school after the summer break on the morning the bodies were found.

Hawe left instructions that his body be cremated and his ashes disposed of in the sea and that he not be buried as a Catholic.

He even referred to his own psychosis, questioning whether he enjoyed "all the good stuff we did".

Quote from: J70 on December 20, 2017, 12:29:26 PM

Quote from: seafoid on December 20, 2017, 11:57:23 AM
A lot of the murder suicide cases involve relationship breakdown  and mental illness involving catastrophisation. It isn't rational.

Why did Hawe not just kill himself ?

Nothing will be done about it nationally . So there will be more cases.

But what do you do?

Is there a linear or predictable path from depression or specific signs to senseless murder?

When does society and the government step in?

Its the same in the US with mentally ill people buying guns legally.

The US is worse.
Mental health support is too mysterious. Even if Hawe had problems at work and in his marriage 4 people didn't need to die. Maybe he could have been hospitalised for a month or two.
If people are experiencing psychotic symptoms they should be under medical supervision
Most of the 450 or so people who take their own lives every year do not know that help is available.

Quote from: seafoid on December 20, 2017, 10:51:59 AM

Quote from: Franko on December 20, 2017, 08:22:57 AM

Quote from: seafoid on December 20, 2017, 08:12:19 AM
If the suicide had failed he would be looking at a long jail sentence.  Sanjay? someone was married to a woma  from Mayo. He killed his 2 sons and attempted suicide after he racked up.gambling losses. That triggered a psychotic episode. No excuse under the law.

Would he though?? No expert by any means, but if he claimed insanity would he not have been given a vastly reduced sentence?  Served in a mental inst?

Sanjeev Chada got life. He killed his 2 sons

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/heartbroken-mum-kathleen-chada-whose-11124609

I suspect you know this but Chada wasn't found to be 'insane' so your reference (like so many of your references) is totally irrelevant.

Quote from: Franko on December 20, 2017, 01:23:34 PM

Quote from: seafoid on December 20, 2017, 10:51:59 AM

Quote from: Franko on December 20, 2017, 08:22:57 AM

Quote from: seafoid on December 20, 2017, 08:12:19 AM
If the suicide had failed he would be looking at a long jail sentence.  Sanjay? someone was married to a woma  from Mayo. He killed his 2 sons and attempted suicide after he racked up.gambling losses. That triggered a psychotic episode. No excuse under the law.

Would he though?? No expert by any means, but if he claimed insanity would he not have been given a vastly reduced sentence?  Served in a mental inst?

Sanjeev Chada got life. He killed his 2 sons

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/heartbroken-mum-kathleen-chada-whose-11124609

I suspect you know this but Chada wasn't found to be 'insane' so your reference (like so many of your references) is totally irrelevant.

WTF

You thought insanity.might be a defence..Apparently it isn't. 

Quote from: seafoid on December 20, 2017, 01:29:24 PM

Quote from: Franko on December 20, 2017, 01:23:34 PM

Quote from: seafoid on December 20, 2017, 10:51:59 AM

Quote from: Franko on December 20, 2017, 08:22:57 AM

Quote from: seafoid on December 20, 2017, 08:12:19 AM
If the suicide had failed he would be looking at a long jail sentence.  Sanjay? someone was married to a woma  from Mayo. He killed his 2 sons and attempted suicide after he racked up.gambling losses. That triggered a psychotic episode. No excuse under the law.

Would he though?? No expert by any means, but if he claimed insanity would he not have been given a vastly reduced sentence?  Served in a mental inst?

Sanjeev Chada got life. He killed his 2 sons

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/heartbroken-mum-kathleen-chada-whose-11124609

I suspect you know this but Chada wasn't found to be 'insane' so your reference (like so many of your references) is totally irrelevant.

WTF

You thought insanity.might be a defence..Apparently it isn't.

But it is.  In Irish law.

Mental experts found that the Chada guy wasn't legally 'insane'.  The testimony heard from the Hawe inquest would suggest that it's very likely he would have been.

Quote from: Franko on December 20, 2017, 01:34:56 PM

Quote from: seafoid on December 20, 2017, 01:29:24 PM

Quote from: Franko on December 20, 2017, 01:23:34 PM

Quote from: seafoid on December 20, 2017, 10:51:59 AM

Quote from: Franko on December 20, 2017, 08:22:57 AM

Quote from: seafoid on December 20, 2017, 08:12:19 AM
If the suicide had failed he would be looking at a long jail sentence.  Sanjay? someone was married to a woma  from Mayo. He killed his 2 sons and attempted suicide after he racked up.gambling losses. That triggered a psychotic episode. No excuse under the law.

Would he though?? No expert by any means, but if he claimed insanity would he not have been given a vastly reduced sentence?  Served in a mental inst?

Sanjeev Chada got life. He killed his 2 sons

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/heartbroken-mum-kathleen-chada-whose-11124609

I suspect you know this but Chada wasn't found to be 'insane' so your reference (like so many of your references) is totally irrelevant.

WTF

You thought insanity.might be a defence..Apparently it isn't.

But it is.  In Irish law.

Mental experts found that the Chada guy wasn't legally 'insane'.  The testimony heard from the Hawe inquest would suggest that it's very likely he would have been.

maybe paranoid schizophrenia is acceptablé but depressivé psychosis is not  . Something to do with planning?  I don't know. A fella in Sligo had PS  and killed his gf and is in the Central Mental Hospital.

Quote from: seafoid on December 20, 2017, 02:26:56 PM

Quote from: Franko on December 20, 2017, 01:34:56 PM

Quote from: seafoid on December 20, 2017, 01:29:24 PM

Quote from: Franko on December 20, 2017, 01:23:34 PM

Quote from: seafoid on December 20, 2017, 10:51:59 AM

Quote from: Franko on December 20, 2017, 08:22:57 AM

Quote from: seafoid on December 20, 2017, 08:12:19 AM
If the suicide had failed he would be looking at a long jail sentence.  Sanjay? someone was married to a woma  from Mayo. He killed his 2 sons and attempted suicide after he racked up.gambling losses. That triggered a psychotic episode. No excuse under the law.

Would he though?? No expert by any means, but if he claimed insanity would he not have been given a vastly reduced sentence?  Served in a mental inst?

Sanjeev Chada got life. He killed his 2 sons

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/heartbroken-mum-kathleen-chada-whose-11124609

I suspect you know this but Chada wasn't found to be 'insane' so your reference (like so many of your references) is totally irrelevant.

WTF

You thought insanity.might be a defence..Apparently it isn't.

But it is.  In Irish law.

Mental experts found that the Chada guy wasn't legally 'insane'.  The testimony heard from the Hawe inquest would suggest that it's very likely he would have been.

maybe paranoid schizophrenia is acceptablé but depressivé psychosis is not  . Something to do with planning?  I don't know. A fella in Sligo had PS  and killed his gf and is in the Central Mental Hospital.

Em, yeah, you just made that up.  ::)

People who are charged with a criminal offence and who are suffering from a mental disorder are dealt with under the Criminal Law (Insanity) Act 2006 as amended by the Criminal Law (Insanity) Act 2010.

The question of the mental state of someone charged with a crime may arise at 2 different stages - at the start of the trial and at the decision on guilt. If a person is suffering from a mental disorder, they may be considered unfit to be tried at the start of the trial. In that case, no trial goes ahead. If a trial is held and the person is considered to have actually committed the offence but was insane at the time, it is possible for a verdict of not guilty by reason of insanity to be reached. In murder cases, the concept of diminished responsibility may be used to substitute a verdict of manslaughter.

A mental disorder is defined in the 2006 Act as including mental illness, mental disability, dementia or any disease of the mind but does not include intoxication (drunkenness).

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/criminal_law/criminal_trial/criminal_insanity_and_mental_health.html

Firstly I should point out that he wasn't diagnosed retrospectively with having diminished responsibility or not understanding the difference between right or wrong or the consequences.
He was diagnosed retrospectively without ever being examined by that physician of having a depression induced psychosis.

My own feeling is that whatever his perceived mental state, and these latest letters appear to back it up, is that he knew exactly what he was doing, the consequences and the horror of his actions.

Quote from: omaghjoe on December 20, 2017, 08:27:52 PM
Firstly I should point out that he wasn't diagnosed retrospectively with having diminished responsibility or not understanding the difference between right or wrong or the consequences.
He was diagnosed retrospectively without ever being examined by that physician of having a depression induced psychosis.

My own feeling is that whatever his perceived mental state, and these latest letters appear to back it up, is that he knew exactly what he was doing, the consequences and the horror of his actions.

Are those who commit suicide selfish and cruel then? They often leave letters that show they know what they are at and the consequences of their actions.

Quote from: nrico2006 on December 20, 2017, 10:03:10 PM

Quote from: omaghjoe on December 20, 2017, 08:27:52 PM
Firstly I should point out that he wasn't diagnosed retrospectively with having diminished responsibility or not understanding the difference between right or wrong or the consequences.
He was diagnosed retrospectively without ever being examined by that physician of having a depression induced psychosis.

My own feeling is that whatever his perceived mental state, and these latest letters appear to back it up, is that he knew exactly what he was doing, the consequences and the horror of his actions.

Are those who commit suicide selfish and cruel then? They often leave letters that show they know what they are at and the consequences of their actions.

Selfishness and Cruelness are subjective graduated concepts so differ on how each individual observer see and feels about them.

This discussion was regarding his mental state and specifically wether he understood exactly what he was doing, the consequences of his actions and wether he understood them to be wrong. From his letters it would appear that he did.

Quote from: omaghjoe on December 21, 2017, 07:18:35 AM

Quote from: nrico2006 on December 20, 2017, 10:03:10 PM

Quote from: omaghjoe on December 20, 2017, 08:27:52 PM
Firstly I should point out that he wasn't diagnosed retrospectively with having diminished responsibility or not understanding the difference between right or wrong or the consequences.
He was diagnosed retrospectively without ever being examined by that physician of having a depression induced psychosis.

My own feeling is that whatever his perceived mental state, and these latest letters appear to back it up, is that he knew exactly what he was doing, the consequences and the horror of his actions.

Are those who commit suicide selfish and cruel then? They often leave letters that show they know what they are at and the consequences of their actions.

Selfishness and Cruelness are subjective graduated concepts so differ on how each individual observer see and feels about them.

This discussion was regarding his mental state and specifically wether he understood exactly what he was doing, the consequences of his actions and wether he understood them to be wrong. From his letters it would appear that he did.

My point was simply that when someone takes their own life there is a lot of sympathy for them as others see it as something an illness (depression etc.) caused them to do as opposed to something they would have done if 100% healthy mentally.  If Hawe was impaired mentally then surely it could be argues that it was the result of his illness and not entirely his fault.

Some unbelievable,half cocked, uninformed nonsense on this thread. I would ask the Mods to close it down.

Quote from: Dougal Maguire on December 21, 2017, 08:30:08 AM
Some unbelievable,half cocked, uninformed nonsense on this thread. I would ask the Mods to close it down.

I would agree with you, that some of the comments here are "half cocked uniformed nonsense", however I think mental health issues are best talked about out in the open.  The more these things are discussed the more peoples opinions wont be "half cocked uniformed nonsense".  Enough of sweeping things under the carpet, so people don't feel uncomfortable.  It has not served society well at all.

Quote from: HiMucker on December 21, 2017, 09:03:27 AM

Quote from: Dougal Maguire on December 21, 2017, 08:30:08 AM
Some unbelievable,half cocked, uninformed nonsense on this thread. I would ask the Mods to close it down.

I would agree with you, that some of the comments here are "half cocked uniformed nonsense", however I think mental health issues are best talked about out in the open.  The more these things are discussed the more peoples opinions wont be "half cocked uniformed nonsense".  Enough of sweeping things under the carpet, so people don't feel uncomfortable.  It has not served society well at all.

It was inevitable that comments such as Dougal's would come up.

You're completely right Mucker. People are discussing a topic, they're not pretending to be experts on it. I for one have seen a different view on it from reading this thread.

Quote from: nrico2006 on December 21, 2017, 08:18:23 AM

Quote from: omaghjoe on December 21, 2017, 07:18:35 AM

Quote from: nrico2006 on December 20, 2017, 10:03:10 PM

Quote from: omaghjoe on December 20, 2017, 08:27:52 PM
Firstly I should point out that he wasn't diagnosed retrospectively with having diminished responsibility or not understanding the difference between right or wrong or the consequences.
He was diagnosed retrospectively without ever being examined by that physician of having a depression induced psychosis.

My own feeling is that whatever his perceived mental state, and these latest letters appear to back it up, is that he knew exactly what he was doing, the consequences and the horror of his actions.

Are those who commit suicide selfish and cruel then? They often leave letters that show they know what they are at and the consequences of their actions.

Selfishness and Cruelness are subjective graduated concepts so differ on how each individual observer see and feels about them.

This discussion was regarding his mental state and specifically wether he understood exactly what he was doing, the consequences of his actions and wether he understood them to be wrong. From his letters it would appear that he did.

My point was simply that when someone takes their own life there is a lot of sympathy for them as others see it as something an illness (depression etc.) caused them to do as opposed to something they would have done if 100% healthy mentally.  If Hawe was impaired mentally then surely it could be argues that it was the result of his illness and not entirely his fault.

as  understand it your mental health would have to be so impaired that your were unable to tell right from wrong, that you had no idea that what you were doing was wrong or in any way illegal.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/suicide-note-shows-catalogue-of-issues-troubled-hawe-1.3334479

In his suicide notes, Hawe expressed concerns about his performance as a teacher and how students at his school perceived him and how he worked. He made an unexplained reference to how they might have thought he was not correcting the school work of students properly and that they were "probably" saying that he was on the phone.

He believed that he had fallen short in his work as a teacher at the school, that he was lazy and that people over the summer had been "looking at me oddly and not saluting me," he wrote in his suicide notes.

He was due to return to work at the school after the summer break on the morning the bodies were found.

Hawe, who wrote the letter after murdering his family, said that he felt he had no choice but to kill his family because he believed that they could not live with the burden of his suicide so it was "easier" to murder them.

Some interesting thoughts on this thread and, in my opinion, this is a perfectly reasonable discussion.

Having worked for many years with individuals with various forms of mental illness (paranoid schizophrenia, bipolar, borderline personality disorder etc) the thing that strikes me the most is how he managed to maintain his outer shell without raising some serious concerns. To have had a mental disorder that impaired your rational thinking to such an extent that you'd murder your whole family would suggest you are incredibly unwell. It is truly horrifying that his 'normal' façade was maintained to the point that he committed this heinous crime.

I have worked and supported some 'dangerous' patients who have committed serious crimes but they were unable to mask their disorder, their psychosis was up front and centre and not something they could hide.

We know we'll never truly understand his true culpability and to what extent he was in control. However, there is something that doesn't sit right with me and it's the fact the façade that Hawe put on to the outside world was truly staggering considering the act that he went on to commit and the level of psychosis required to commit such a repulsive crime. 

I don't know anyone from the area and they would not have been called to court for the investigation but it would be interesting to hear if any of them noticed a change in his personality. The conflict mentioned at school could be telling, was this caused by Hawe's developing psychosis? Also, it's very unusual for psychosis to develop so late in life, it usually rears it's head around late teens/early twenties. Although, there is a clear understanding that acute periods of stress can exacerbate an underlying genetic predisposition to mental ill health.

I agree that this thread should stay open because it is educational. There are also a few questions to which there is no straight answer. Discussing these openly here might actually help someone.

I'm no counsellor, but if Hawe had spoken to someone openly about his issues, then five lives could have been saved. Isn't that the important lesson here?

Quote from: Orior on December 21, 2017, 03:39:51 PM
I agree that this thread should stay open because it is educational. There are also a few questions to which there is no straight answer. Discussing these openly here might actually help someone.

I'm no counsellor, but if Hawe had spoken to someone openly about his issues, then five lives could have been saved. Isn't that the important lesson here?

Maybe he could also have returned to full health

Quote from: Orior on December 21, 2017, 03:39:51 PM
I agree that this thread should stay open because it is educational. There are also a few questions to which there is no straight answer. Discussing these openly here might actually help someone.

I'm no counsellor, but if Hawe had spoken to someone openly about his issues, then five lives could have been saved. Isn't that the important lesson here?

Not so sure. He did consult his GP and had counselling earlier in his life. Not an expert by any means, but sometimes these issues are very, very hard to resolve.

Quote from: mrdeeds on December 21, 2017, 07:52:19 PM
The Sun today had what his fall from grace was. If you can believe that rag.

Just checked that out and it adds another dimension to the tragedy. If that is true it adds more weight to him demonstrating greater culpability, imo.

Quote from: omagh_gael on December 21, 2017, 08:19:16 PM

Quote from: mrdeeds on December 21, 2017, 07:52:19 PM
The Sun today had what his fall from grace was. If you can believe that rag.

Just checked that out and it adds another dimension to the tragedy. If that is true it adds more weight to him demonstrating greater culpability, imo.

Strange the school principal didn't have input at the inquest.

Quote from: Orior on December 21, 2017, 03:39:51 PM
I agree that this thread should stay open because it is educational. There are also a few questions to which there is no straight answer. Discussing these openly here might actually help someone.

I'm no counsellor, but if Hawe had spoken to someone openly about his issues, then five lives could have been saved. Isn't that the important lesson here?

Valid post.
One issue that we haven't talked about in enough detail on the thread  (I haven't, and won't, read the Sun) is the fact that it was a man who murdered his partner and children. The case of Mary Keegan who murdered her children has been mentioned but there have been a number of cases in recent years where a man has murdered his partner and then murdered the children and then committed suicide Now I'm a man, a GAA man, and have links to Cavan.  I am also sympathetic and understanding of people who have mental ill-health. But my question is why do women who have mental health problems rarely murder their partner and children? Many men and women have mental health challenges but very few go on to murder their partners and children. This man felt he was facing loss of reputation but how the hell does that lead to murdering your partner and children ? We men, and GAA men, should actively challenge this idea that we have the right to control or have power over our partners. Some posters have focussed on mental health and some have even referred to the Irish News as gutter journalism because it suggested it was the man who did it. This guy used the ultimate control - murder- and it is horrible. So, no man ever has the right to have power and control over his partner. This was domestic violence, linked to mental health, and we should call it.

Well put.

Quote from: Dubh driocht on December 21, 2017, 11:18:53 PM

Quote from: Orior on December 21, 2017, 03:39:51 PM
I agree that this thread should stay open because it is educational. There are also a few questions to which there is no straight answer. Discussing these openly here might actually help someone.

I'm no counsellor, but if Hawe had spoken to someone openly about his issues, then five lives could have been saved. Isn't that the important lesson here?

Valid post.
One issue that we haven't talked about in enough detail on the thread  (I haven't, and won't, read the Sun) is the fact that it was a man who murdered his partner and children. The case of Mary Keegan who murdered her children has been mentioned but there have been a number of cases in recent years where a man has murdered his partner and then murdered the children and then committed suicide Now I'm a man, a GAA man, and have links to Cavan.  I am also sympathetic and understanding of people who have mental ill-health. But my question is why do women who have mental health problems rarely murder their partner and children? Many men and women have mental health challenges but very few go on to murder their partners and children. This man felt he was facing loss of reputation but how the hell does that lead to murdering your partner and children ? We men, and GAA men, should actively challenge this idea that we have the right to control or have power over our partners. Some posters have focussed on mental health and some have even referred to the Irish News as gutter journalism because it suggested it was the man who did it. This guy used the ultimate control - murder- and it is horrible. So, no man ever has the right to have power and control over his partner. This was domestic violence, linked to mental health, and we should call it.

I can think of 2 cases where women killed at least on child and then themselves with both lineed to postnatal depression.

We now have people diagnosed with psychosis when they are dead. How did that mental state examination happen.? As a previous poster stated  this thread should be closed. Halfwits posing as forensic psychiatrists. 

I'd prefer discussion threads such as this to be left open

I never want to be the teacher or school who has to deal with the aftermath of such a tragic event in school the next day.
Harrowing for everyone involved.

Quote from: charlieTully on December 22, 2017, 11:21:02 AM
We now have people diagnosed with psychosis when they are dead. How did that mental state examination happen.? As a previous poster stated  this thread should be closed. Halfwits posing as forensic psychiatrists.

Who diagnosed him with psychosis, if that's even possible?

The expert said that he progressed to psychotic symptoms. He was asked to give his opinion.

Quote from: manfromdelmonte on December 22, 2017, 01:32:10 PM
I'd prefer discussion threads such as this to be left open

I never want to be the teacher or school who has to deal with the aftermath of such a tragic event in school the next day.
Harrowing for everyone involved.

A girl I used to teach hung herself when she was 17/18. She left the school after GCSEs but her friends were still there. It was not very nice at all

I think the term "forensic psychiatrist" is misleading.  Nobody knows how our brains work. Psychiatry is mostly trial and error. Tablets may or may not work.

If someone takes their own life there is no way to reconstruct  what they were thinking. There is a black box but nobody knows how to read it.

Quote from: Esmarelda on December 22, 2017, 01:44:02 PM

Quote from: charlieTully on December 22, 2017, 11:21:02 AM
We now have people diagnosed with psychosis when they are dead. How did that mental state examination happen.? As a previous poster stated  this thread should be closed. Halfwits posing as forensic psychiatrists.

Who diagnosed him with psychosis, if that's even possible?

The expert said that he progressed to psychotic symptoms. He was asked to give his opinion.

A diagnosis after death can only be speculation.

Quote from: charlieTully on December 22, 2017, 01:55:13 PM

Quote from: Esmarelda on December 22, 2017, 01:44:02 PM

Quote from: charlieTully on December 22, 2017, 11:21:02 AM
We now have people diagnosed with psychosis when they are dead. How did that mental state examination happen.? As a previous poster stated  this thread should be closed. Halfwits posing as forensic psychiatrists.

Who diagnosed him with psychosis, if that's even possible?

The expert said that he progressed to psychotic symptoms. He was asked to give his opinion.

A diagnosis after death can only be speculation.

Nobody has mentioned diagnosis except you.

Quote from: Esmarelda on December 22, 2017, 02:18:11 PM

Quote from: charlieTully on December 22, 2017, 01:55:13 PM

Quote from: Esmarelda on December 22, 2017, 01:44:02 PM

Quote from: charlieTully on December 22, 2017, 11:21:02 AM
We now have people diagnosed with psychosis when they are dead. How did that mental state examination happen.? As a previous poster stated  this thread should be closed. Halfwits posing as forensic psychiatrists.

Who diagnosed him with psychosis, if that's even possible?

The expert said that he progressed to psychotic symptoms. He was asked to give his opinion.

A diagnosis after death can only be speculation.

Nobody has mentioned diagnosis except you.

So he was visiting a therapist and doctor who hadn't diagnosed him with anything apart from stress. But retrospectively another doctor diagnosed him as suffering from depression and psychosis. Was this diagnosis based on the additional actions of murdering his family and suicide?

The point Im getting at is does that diagnosis diminish his responsibility?
.....And could he plead accordingly at a murder trial if he hadn't committed suicide?

Also a murder trial would doubtless have given another perspective of being a man being overwhelmed with pride and jealousy who snapped because his wife was leaving him, killed her in a rage and then callously killed his children so they would never know the monster he was.

The psychologist in this case also feels that Alan Hawe suffered from a depressive condition which then developed into a psychotic act that day.


Mental health support is too mysterious. Even if Hawe had problems at work and in his marriage 4 people didn't need to die. Maybe he could have been hospitalised for a month or two.
If people are experiencing psychotic symptoms they should be under medical supervision
Most of the 450 or so people who take their own lives every year do not know that help is available.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/hawe-killings-fit-characteristics-of-other-murder-suicides-1.3336832

Hawe's lengthy suicide notes left at the scene of his crimes – evidence that Prof Kennedy relied on, along with Hawe's counselling and GP notes, for his diagnosis – reveal a man intent on taking his own life and explaining the murders of his family on the basis that he was saving them from the shame of living with his suicide.

"I know you all will suffer with this but I couldn't do it to the one who loved me so much and boys so young. I was ultimately going to ruin the rest of their lives," Hawe wrote to members of his own family and his wife's family.

'Shame'

In another section, he wrote: "I cannot let them face a life without me and the shame they would have to bear that their father had committed suicide. I have wanted to kill myself for a long time now and I just could not bear the thought of leaving my mess and the anger and rejection that Clodagh and the boys would have to live with forever."

He expressed shame repeatedly, over the effect of his mental state on his family, over his work and over himself.

"I am sorry for all the people who showed me so much love and I never repaid it. I was always a selfish person. Clodagh didn't deserve to have to put up with that. I am so, so sorry. Don't forgive me."

Clinical psychologist Dr Eoin Galavan said that it is common for suicidal people to see themselves as a burden on others and to believe that they would be better off without them. He cited "burdensomeness" as one of the core concepts from research by Florida State University academic Thomas Joiner in the area of murder-suicides.



"Believing you are a burden on those around you, that this burdensomeness is a stable and permanent and unlikely to change, is a potent driver of the desire for death," said Dr Galavan.

"A person may believe they are sparing the victim the pain of enduring the wake of their own suicide . . . Of course, this is a distorted belief, and from the outside looking in this is obvious. However, the suicidal person can believe this with deep conviction."

Warped

The normal desire to protect your children can become warped when someone suffers from psychosis.

"In the case of murder suicide, these everyday beliefs and attitudes are distorted and perverted to the point of killing those whom the person may believe they are caring about," said Dr Galavan.

Brendan Kelly, professor of psychiatry at Trinity College Dublin, says delusional people can often fear something terrible is about to happen to them or their family and to avoid this suffering they have to kill their family.

"It is a very deluded mental state but the alleviation of suffering through killing is obviously a big risk factor and it has been described in many cases of murder-suicide," he said.

Hawe's beliefs, revealed in his notes, that people were looking at him "oddly" over the summer before he committed the murders or that they had a dim view of his work as a teacher seem to have fed his unstable state.

"Murder-suicide can also be based on delusions which are fixed, false belief but delusions are a little more than regular beliefs," said Prof Kelly.

"They usually carry more of a conviction that a person needs to act."

That was a hard watch tonite about what went on in that house.. The man clearly was a control freak and got caught at the school doing something he shouldn't and realise he was going to lose this control so ended it all. Why is the school not disclosing to the family what had went on, its all very strange.

Quote from: Hereiam on February 26, 2019, 12:19:12 AM
That was a hard watch tonite about what went on in that house.. The man clearly was a control freak and got caught at the school doing something he shouldn't and realise he was going to lose this control so ended it all. Why is the school not disclosing to the family what had went on, its all very strange.

He was a cold calculated murderer and nothing more. Sub human. What those children suffered is incomprehensible. Some trying to throw the cloak of depression over this as cover are just as dangerous. Nothing can excuse his actions. Nothing. Society is rightly outraged.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/transcript-of-clodagh-hawe-family-interviews-1.3805969

Quote from: trailer on February 26, 2019, 09:33:54 AM

Quote from: Hereiam on February 26, 2019, 12:19:12 AM
That was a hard watch tonite about what went on in that house.. The man clearly was a control freak and got caught at the school doing something he shouldn't and realise he was going to lose this control so ended it all. Why is the school not disclosing to the family what had went on, its all very strange.

He was a cold calculated murderer and nothing more. Sub human. What those children suffered is incomprehensible. Some trying to throw the cloak of depression over this as cover are just as dangerous. Nothing can excuse his actions. Nothing. Society is rightly outraged.

Society or you ?
I always say people have a very Right on attitude to mental health until they are faced with it and the consequences then its all about sins and evil and any will to understand and perhaps prevent a reoccurrence . goes out the window,
out rage and revenge,even on a dead man,  helps no one

Quote from: seafoid on February 26, 2019, 09:39:36 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/transcript-of-clodagh-hawe-family-interviews-1.3805969

That's hard going. You need to be in deep to do that to your own wife and kids.

Quote from: Tony Baloney on February 26, 2019, 01:37:08 PM

Quote from: seafoid on February 26, 2019, 09:39:36 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/transcript-of-clodagh-hawe-family-interviews-1.3805969

That's hard going. You need to be in deep to do that to your own wife and kids.

It's even worse reading it now I think .
That family went through so much even before the night

And I said, "please God, don't let anybody else be dead." Her husband and daughter's husband had already died and then there were 5 more in the kitchen.

He never raised a hand to them until the night he killed them.

It is just awful
Deciding to murder your wife and kids because you want to kill yourself has to be the worst.  Taking that control into death is evil.

Quote from: seafoid on February 26, 2019, 09:39:36 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/transcript-of-clodagh-hawe-family-interviews-1.3805969

That poor family (both the wife and kids and those left behind).

The sheer brutality, literally butchering his wife and kids, and no one knows or is able to find out why?

Quote from: J70 on February 26, 2019, 03:01:33 PM

Quote from: seafoid on February 26, 2019, 09:39:36 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/transcript-of-clodagh-hawe-family-interviews-1.3805969

That poor family (both the wife and kids and those left behind).

The sheer brutality, literally butchering his wife and kids, and no one knows or is able to find out why?

It must have been linked to him losing his social position because of whatever we don't know about and the day before the return to school triggering it