The ulster rugby trial

Started by caprea, February 01, 2018, 11:45:56 PM

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trileacman

Quote from: north_antrim_hound on February 08, 2018, 03:16:10 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 08, 2018, 02:53:37 PM
I think it's quite interesting that Syferus is being rounded on here when there are a lot of posters here who have clearly made up their minds in the opposite direction based on nothing more than "rumour, wild speculation and innuendo", as the previous poster puts it.

Certainly the rumour and innuendo so far has been pretty much one way traffic against the complainant.



I haven't made up my mind and won't pass judgment on either party. However flawed the judicial system is,  its the best way to determine innocence or guilt.
How can Syferis pre-determine who is the innocent party based on media reports. To criticise other posters is to criticise himself.
If you study his post on any subject their is a constant theme of using it to project an image of superiority and condescension through belittling the average view. I find his writing quite delusional and completely devoid of any class or balance.
If he pulled the plug on this board you won't find too many expressing thoughts of sorrow and disappointment.
One the worst posters on the board.

+1. Easily the most condescending half wit on the board.
Fantasy Rugby World Cup Champion 2011,
Fantasy 6 Nations Champion 2014

Main Street

Quote from: Mayo4Sam on February 09, 2018, 10:17:46 AM
Quote from: Main Street on February 09, 2018, 01:40:24 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on February 08, 2018, 12:08:31 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on February 08, 2018, 12:02:54 PM
Ya. It's a well known fact that everyone reacts the same.  ::)

Broadly speaking they do. Thats why you have things like the five stages of grief, theres actually a name for it - Rape Trauma Syndrome.
I should avoid this thread but before I do,

Broadly speaking people do NOT react the same.
Yes there are 5 well land marked stages of grief that people generally pass through, however one person may linger in a shocked state far longer than someone else. One person may get stuck forever and not get to the stage of acceptance, another may linger long in anger or despair before moving on.
Like wise with Rape Trauma Syndrome, broadly speaking people do not react the same.
The evidence of the demeanor of the woman during that night and subsequent days does not contradict her claim that she was raped. Her demeanor during all that period can be perceived as being entirely consistent with a rape trauma experience.

Going by the defense's line of questioning so far and their focus on consent, I'd say the case will probably come down to,
did she give consent at the time AND can the defendants prove beyond reasonable doubt that she gave consent?
Did she give clear consent to all the sexual activity that was inflicted upon her that night?
Did she say no at any time?
If she didn't say no, why not? was she incapacitated? threatened? did she feel intimidated?
You say people broadly don't act the same and then go onto explain that people do broadly act the same but there are times that people deviate from this.
I don't.

QuoteGoing back to my original point, people in stressful situations tend to act in a similar manner. I would like to know if this ladies behavior is consistent with other rape victims. That is with the caveat that some peoples reactions are outside the norm, so non-consistency doesn't necessarily prove she wasn't raped but consistency could go a long way to helping her
Do the research. My reply is consistent with research.
People act differently in post trauma situations and this woman's behaviour is consistent with a possible post rape trauma.
Her behavior may not be consistent with what your perception is, but that's  another debate.

yellowcard

Some rubbish spouted in this thread. The decision to convict is still very much in the balance but I suspect that so far there is not enough hard evidence to convict either Jackson or Olding but that is not to say that they are not guilty. Either way, both the accused and in particular the alleged victim will have come through a harrowing experience and will have to bear the scars for a long time.

Asal Mor

#528
Quote from: yellowcard on February 10, 2018, 09:59:37 AM
Some rubbish spouted in this thread. The decision to convict is still very much in the balance but I suspect that so far there is not enough hard evidence to convict either Jackson or Olding but that is not to say that they are not guilty. Either way, both the accused and in particular the alleged victim will have come through a harrowing experience and will have to bear the scars for a long time.
From what I've read so far I believe the girl but I also think, as someone said earlier on the thread, that the men didn't realise they'd done anything illegal. Ignorance is no defence but if the girl who walked in proves to be a convincing witness and says it looked consensual, I don't see how a jury can convict beyond a reasonable doubt, especially when the girl herself has admitted to being hazy about some of the details.

brokencrossbar1

Quote from: Asal Mor on February 10, 2018, 11:11:47 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on February 10, 2018, 09:59:37 AM
Some rubbish spouted in this thread. The decision to convict is still very much in the balance but I suspect that so far there is not enough hard evidence to convict either Jackson or Olding but that is not to say that they are not guilty. Either way, both the accused and in particular the alleged victim will have come through a harrowing experience and will have to bear the scars for a long time.
From what I've read so far I believe the girl but I also think, as someone said earlier on the thread, that the men didn't realise they'd done anything illegal. Ignorance is no defence but if the girl who walked in proves to be a convincing witness and says it looked consensual, I don't see how a jury can convict beyond a reasonable doubt, especially when the girl herself has admitted to being hazy about some of the details.

I would tend to agree to that simply on what is being reported however, things like the physical damage on her may be the very crucial evidence. If there is clear physical damage to the girl, which I believe there is, and it is fairly contemporaneous then this is unbiased evidence of forceable sex. It won't take a big jump for that to be construed as non consensual

general_lee

I've said before about implied consent and I think this was the case with the Ched Evans trial where his friend wasn't guilty of rape but he was. Might have something similar here, PJ might argue that he believed he had consent as defence, not sure how Olding would go about it though. I'm inclined to believe the girl is telling the truth with what she says, the sequence of events to me suggest that she fully believed she had been raped right from the offset and there is next to no chance that  this is some sort of fabrication to hide promiscuous behaviour.

seafoid

Quote from: yellowcard on February 10, 2018, 09:59:37 AM
Some rubbish spouted in this thread. The decision to convict is still very much in the balance but I suspect that so far there is not enough hard evidence to convict either Jackson or Olding but that is not to say that they are not guilty. Either way, both the accused and in particular the alleged victim will have come through a harrowing experience and will have to bear the scars for a long time,
Jackson and Olding havent said anything yet but will they be credible? Will they be consistent?
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

Owen Brannigan

Quote from: seafoid on February 10, 2018, 02:27:50 PM
Jackson and Olding havent said anything yet but will they be credible? Will they be consistent?

This is a trial about the behaviour of some middle class young people from affluent Belfast.  Both plaintiff and defendants have had privileged education. 

The plaintiff has shown herself to be resilient, articulate and combative, will the defendants do the same?  I believe they will be very well prepped and try to show themselves to be 'modest' and ashamed of their behaviour but startled that they have been accused of anything illegal. 

The plaintiff withstood the battery of four barristers for a week while the defendants have the luxury of just one person scrutinising each of them in detail. 

Expect excruciating details of sexual activity to be drawn from the main defendants.

gallsman

Quote from: Owen Brannigan on February 10, 2018, 04:06:22 PM
Both plaintiff and defendants have had privileged education. 

Pffft. Olding went to BRA.

seafoid

Quote from: gallsman on February 10, 2018, 04:17:24 PM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on February 10, 2018, 04:06:22 PM
Both plaintiff and defendants have had privileged education. 

Pffft. Olding went to BRA.
Had it not been removed by the time he arrived on the scene?
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

longballin

Tricolour at Ireland game today with "I believe her" on it.  :o

Syferus

Quote from: longballin on February 10, 2018, 05:05:00 PM
Tricolour at Ireland game today with "I believe her" on it.  :o

Fair play. No need for faces.

longballin

Quote from: Syferus on February 10, 2018, 05:09:21 PM
Quote from: longballin on February 10, 2018, 05:05:00 PM
Tricolour at Ireland game today with "I believe her" on it.  :o

Fair play. No need for faces.

Let the trial take it's course...I'd say same if the banner said 'don't believe her.'  was made by another fireside lawyer.

Syferus

Quote from: longballin on February 10, 2018, 05:12:25 PM
Quote from: Syferus on February 10, 2018, 05:09:21 PM
Quote from: longballin on February 10, 2018, 05:05:00 PM
Tricolour at Ireland game today with "I believe her" on it.  :o

Fair play. No need for faces.

Let the trial take it's course...I'd say same if the banner said 'don't believe her.'  was made by another fireside lawyer.

There is much more history with rape victims being treated with disbelief and less-than-subtle sexism - the idea of solidarity like that is to encourage victims to come forward; most rapes remain unreported.

The accused face no such hurdles. Drawing a straight line between the two sides misses the point.

longballin

Quote from: Syferus on February 10, 2018, 05:19:13 PM
Quote from: longballin on February 10, 2018, 05:12:25 PM
Quote from: Syferus on February 10, 2018, 05:09:21 PM
Quote from: longballin on February 10, 2018, 05:05:00 PM
Tricolour at Ireland game today with "I believe her" on it.  :o

Fair play. No need for faces.

Let the trial take it's course...I'd say same if the banner said 'don't believe her.'  was made by another fireside lawyer.

There is much more history with rape victims being treated with disbelief and less-than-subtle sexism - the idea of solidarity like that is to encourage victims to come forward; most rapes remain unreported.

The accused face no such hurdles. Drawing a straight line between the two sides misses the point.

encourage victims to come forward after the trial. Person with the banner no more knows his guilt or innocence than you do. Trial has a bit to go yet - is why jurors are told to listen to all the evidence before coming to  a decision