Go Games - Good or bad - discuss...

[mackers]

O Neill maybe I am looking at it from a fortunate position but how did I get to that position? My team mates and I thought differently. We were no more special in terms of ability than Ayrfield, East Kerry and whatever area stephenite is from. The difference is from 10 years of age we believed we were the best.  1 man is responsible for that. Maybe he was lucky that we came along, or more likely we we're lucky to have him as a coach. That sense now permeates the club. I am happy that the rest of Ireland accepts Go Games as the way forward, from a selfish point of view. We'll do things our way if that is ok?

Not sure what you mean by this bc, Cross are partaking in Go Games at u8 and u10 and have done for the last two years. This year is the first year that u12 is played with Go Games rules in Armagh, I haven't heard of them opting out, I don't see that they have much choice.

[redcard]

looks like everyone is playing it as part of congress motion:


What are GAA Go Games?
GAA Go Games are small-sided games with modified rules in both Hurling (Go Hurling) and Gaelic Football (Go Gaelic). They form a central element of GAA policy on games for children up to and including the Under-12 age grade.

Congress 2010 saw the passing of a motion relating to this policy. Some of the key points relating to the implementation of this policy are outlined below.

A motion regarding the organisation of children's games was passed at Congress. Could you explain what this motion is and what it means for the organisation of games?

The motion is as follows:

'Under-12 and Younger Age Groups
Games in Under 12 and Younger Age Groups shall be organized on the "Go Games" model with teams being a maximum of 11-a-side and structured to ensure that all participants get to play in the full game.

At Under-12 level, Competitions may also be organized on a mini-league format on the basis that the teams are a maximum of 11-a-side and that provision is made for all members of the team panel to participate in the game.'

Essentially the motion means games for all age groups up to and including under-11 must be organised exclusively on the Go Games model.

The Go Games Model is defined by the following criteria:

    * There is full participation for all players
    * Games are organised in a non competitive way i.e. results are not recorded
    * Games are small-sided
    * Playing rules are modified to suit the developmental stages of the children
    * Playing area is modified
    * Playing equipment is modified

NB: Modifications and playing rules are at the discretion of each county.

At Under-12 level Mini-League Competitions are organised to provide and support a gradual exposure to the challenges of competitively organised games programmes.

These mini-league competitions can be introduced in parallel to Go Games. The mini-league system is a competitive games programme built on the philosophy of Go Games, that is, a) it is small-sided, and b) provision must be made for all players to get meaningful playing time.

When will this policy be implemented?

Many counties have already adopted this approach after it was endorsed by Central Council in 2009. The policy will become rule in 2011 whereby all Under 12 games must follow this format.

What is the philosophy of Go Games?

The underlying philosophy where Go Games are concerned is one of full participation and fair play where each player gets to play the entire game (no subs where practical) and plays in a number of different playing positions during the course of each game. The games are small sided and the emphasis is on participation rather than the result. Go Games are not only about Fair Play in the sense that all participants should get the opportunity to participate fully in the games. They also revolve around the core values enshrined in the GAA Respect Initiative.

What are the advantages of Go Games?

There are a numerous advantages to this approach but the most obvious are:

    * Games are small-sided and all participants get to play for the entire game
    * Games are played in a fun environment with emphasis on improving skills
    * Children are not subject to the win at all costs approach

Is there any research to support this approach?

Research conducted at DCU, under the guidance of Prof Niall Moyna and Dublin football coach Mickey Whelan was crucial in the development of the Go Games. By tracking the same 7 players in a 15 a-side and 7-a-side game (each of 30 minute duration) the data indicated the following benefits of the small sided game;

    * Players worked harder therefore increasing fitness levels
    * Players had more contact with the ball leading to increased opportunities to score, make decisions, develop skills
    * The children also reported a greater level of enjoyment and had higher levels of perceived competence (self esteem)

Go Games are also in line with the Primary School PE curriculum and have recently been endorsed by Cumann na mBunscol at their national AGM. The approach is further endorsed by outgoing INTO president, Máire ní Chuinneagáin; "I fully indorse the sport for all approach adopted by the GAA and Cumann na mBunscol. The maximum participation of all children in sporting activities is at the heart of the primary school curriculum. Participation must never be sacrificed for competition, the success of the few must not be promoted over the opportunity for all children to take part, enjoy and develop to the best of their ability."

How will existing competitions at Under 12 be affected by this rule ?

Many counties have already adopted a successful child centred approach but some counties may need to re-format competitions slightly. Mini leagues will be organised which act as an introduction to competition. These leagues would be small sided and would ensure that there is provision for participation for all players. Where possible clubs would field multiple teams to facilitate all players playing to avoid children sitting on sidelines. It is important for clubs to be aware that all competitions or tournaments must be sanctioned by county board for insurance purposes.

What is the aim of this policy?

The ultimate aim is to ensure a quality introduction to Gaelic games for all children and to build a mass of players to progress and continue to play with their club. The provision of formal competition for children is a relatively recent development. However, with the passage of time, these competitions have in some cases become more serious and naturally when this occurs a culture of 'keep the best and neglect the rest' develops. While those in charge may be well intentioned, there is no justification for placing adult-type demands on young children e.g. where winning is the over-riding concern, where they play in 15-a-side games, on over sized pitches, and have minimal involvement in the game.

This has led to a situation where many players who - for a variety of reasons – mature at a slower rate finish up dropping out of Gaelic games due to a lack of confidence in their own ability, a lack of playing time, a lack of fun and the absence of any real sense of achievement.

In recent years, there has been a greater appreciation and increased recognition of the need to ensure that a child-centred approach is adopted where the promotion and development of Gaelic games is concerned. In other words, it should be a case of children first, winning second. This in no way rules out competition, but contextualises it, firstly through Go Games as the intrinsic motivation inherent to sport and secondly through mini-league competitions within a framework which ensures that all children get a fair opportunity to participate and provides greater opportunity for skill development and enjoyment.

http://www.gaa.ie/youth-zone/gaa-go-games/

[johnneycool]

Its an interesting debate on so many levels and one I've only got to know in the last year or so when the young lad of 5 took off to play with the Under 6's. From a hurling POV, I've went to his training on numerous occasions and would know the coaches well and have given advice when asked and IMO at that age as long as they hold the hurl right and strike on the ground off both sides and enjoy it then let them at it.
My lad has played (I'll use that term loosely) in two go game blitzes, and as I wasn't able to make it my wife took him, he never struck leather either time as the ball was in a sheep like ruck, one lad was dancing, another two were playing soldiers with their hurls and all that. You know what, he loved it and can't wait to go to training when its on.

Sometimes we adults analyse things from an adults perspective and not from the childs and I think that's where we're going wrong.  Paudie Butler talks extensively about this on some of the GAA training material I've seen recently and I'm not going to argue with a man who through teaching in a parish in Tipp, brought a club from nowhere to two or three Tipp county finals and several intercounty hurlers for the first time ever.

Children are naturally competitive anyway and the younger ones are a bit like goldfish, they score a goal and they're the greatest thing in the world. It doesn't matter that the other team maybe scored 4 more, they'll remember the one they scored.
As they get to the 10 to 12 age group however they should be exposed to a bit of competiton as some others have said you need to learn about losing as much as winning and how to embrace that to turn things around, mentally as much as anything else. Kids are ok at this age if the parents aren't around putting undue pressure on them, even the 'pound a goal' shite I hear off.
You begin to suffer from the big children dominating at this age, which isn't good so rules like no solo running (hurling) should be maintained and TBH, I've seen it more times than enough that the big lads poor technique at underage where they can get away with it comes back to haunt them at adult level and strangely get passed by youngsters who were smaller at underage but were neat and tidier hurlers and when they do fill out a bit as they maybe grow later on, that good technique stands by them.

And this is where good coaching comes in. I did the foundation level back in the early days of all this stuff from Croke park and the hurling coaches were Paudie O'Neill (originally a Tipp native, but Dublin based now) and a big lad from Clare and when coaching the basics like striking the ball, lifting, blocking etc, touched on the details which separate good hurlers from average ones. This course in itself is geared towards novices i.e. the mums and dads with little playing backgrounds themselves coaching youngsters the basics. I've witnessed this course recently run within the club and the coach taking it did a lot of the very same drills, but left out the details I was expecting. The lifts were too high, i.e. the ball was being scouped up to about waist high, which was a no no with O'Neill who talked about 6 inches no more.

To someone who never really played the game, they wouldn't see the difference as in a drill situation the ball should still be in the hand etc, etc, but during a game those split seconds mean the ball would take longer to lift and get in the hand as well as being easier to knock away. Once youngsters learn bad habits its bloody hard to shake it out of them, especially the poor grip which is near on impossible to correct in pig headed teenagers as I'm finding out for myself now but sure I'll keep ranting and raving at them and hope some sticks in their shell likes.

[AZOffaly]

What's wrong with their grip johnney? Is the dominant hand coming down the hurl, or something else? There's a couple of things you can to break that habit, but it's up to the player to work on it.

[johnneycool]

What's wrong with their grip johnney? Is the dominant hand coming down the hurl, or something else? There's a couple of things you can to break that habit, but it's up to the player to work on it.

Yeah dominant hurl down the hurley and the weaker hand then ends up on the top when striking. One lad has no left side at all and it's really preventing him from going any further, but worst of all he fails to see it. You can pish harder when he attempts to pull a ball on the ground on his left.

[AZOffaly]

At the risk of sounding prehistoric, have you tried taping his dominant hand to the top of the hurl? If you do that for every training session for about 3 weeks, it'll help a lot.

[johnneycool]

At the risk of sounding prehistoric, have you tried taping his dominant hand to the top of the hurl? If you do that for every training session for about 3 weeks, it'll help a lot.

I'd love to do that but I'd need to tape his gob shut as well.

I've heard of gluing a marigold onto the hurley as well, might try that, but one lad in particular can't see the error of his ways even if you were giving him several examples of the issues its causing during games and stuff. A while with a number 17 on his back may bring a bit of sense to him. 

[AZOffaly]

Yeah, the glove on the top of the hurl is the same thing.

[Farrandeelin]

Sorry if this isn't actually about the Go Games itself, but my club have me hounded for some time to be a referee. Now they are asking me to do Go Games reffing. Are mammys and daddys bad at this level at Go Games towards refs?

[AZOffaly]

Not in my experience. That's one of the drivers behind the Go Games concept. Less pressure on kids, but also less pressure from Parents. Beware you'll have to learn the Go Games rules

[AZOffaly]

Not in my experience. That's one of the drivers behind the Go Games concept. Less pressure on kids, but also less pressure from Parents. Beware you'll have to learn the Go Games rules

Some parents can still be brutal though. As for Go Games rules, they vary from county to county. For example in Tyrone for football there are no goals (points only), no skills points, no zoning of players and the only personal playing restriction is a two-touch rule in a solo run.

If parents are brutal at Go Games, they need road. And that's what I meant about the Go Games rules, it might be a minefield for the aspiring ref, and they'll change depending on ages as well.

[the Deel Rover]

Not in my experience. That's one of the drivers behind the Go Games concept. Less pressure on kids, but also less pressure from Parents. Beware you'll have to learn the Go Games rules

Some parents can still be brutal though. As for Go Games rules, they vary from county to county. For example in Tyrone for football there are no goals (points only), no skills points, no zoning of players and the only personal playing restriction is a two-touch rule in a solo run.

If parents are brutal at Go Games, they need road. And that's what I meant about the Go Games rules, it might be a minefield for the aspiring ref, and they'll change depending on ages as well.

Off topic i know but thats the one huge difference i have noticed having got my Kids involved in Rugby as well as the gaa they just don't tolerate any bullshit from parents on the sideline if any one decides to start mouthing they are quickly told it won't be tolerated.

[Larry Duff]

I have noticed that since my son moved up to U10s there doesn't seem to be that many Go Games events. Instead they seem to be entering competitive tournaments far and wide. Is it the case that there are less clubs running Go Games events for this age group? Or is it, as I suspect, a case of coaches seeking out all opportunities to bring silverware to the club?  I ask because if the club are ignoring these Go Games events, where all players should get a game, in favour of competitive tornaments where the same players play constantly and many kids are left at home then I might need to address this somehow as already I am almost forcing him to keep going to these things as his interest has plummetted.

[cornerback]

I know its been 11 years since this thread was started but I'm wondering have peoples opinions changed since then.

I had no involvement in go-games at that stage but now that I've a couple of children involved...

I like the idea behind go-games - it encourages participation from all children regardless of ability and working with the children it is easy to see the improvement that they've all made over the course of the year.  That obliviously isn't just because of the go-games - coaches at trainings, parents at home and the children themselves have to practice the skills but the go-games give the children the opportunity to put the skills into practice in a semi-competitive scenario; the go-games give more children more opportunities to get on the ball in game situations.

Also, its strange to see Larry Duff above (11 years ago!) highlight competitive tournaments creeping in... I thought this was a more recent phenomenon with only a few tournaments at the end of the year but now every club seems to want to host their own tournament.  I can see some merit in a few tournaments but it's how they are managed.  Clubs with larger numbers have to pick a panel (meaning boys/girls are excluded).  I've also noticed when tournaments start that some children don't want to participate in go-games any more or just generally mess about as there are no winners!
I also find that tournaments can bring the worst out in everyone; coaches (will to win means some children won't get game time), parents (abuse of players/coaches/referees) and children themselves (aggressiveness boils over - lashing out and foulmouthed to officials)

Anyway - be interested to hear other peoples thoughts.

[thewobbler]

Just finished up an u11.5 season where we'd 2 x teams, one a mostly p7 team playing in d1, one a mostly p6 team playing in d4. I jumped between the teams week on week and got a good flavour of both.

I have to say it's a credit to the South Down board (Brendan Rice the coordinator) that both our teams got 16-18 games on Sunday mornings with official referees, and just about every match played in the right spirit.

There are some serious plus points to Go Games. The first one being that I can count on one hand the number of players blown up for overcarrying all year; the players just seem to get it. The direct result of this is a clear need and resultant emphasis on other skills: quick hand passing and support play, longer, earlier passing, and timed tackling. Half backs can read space in the knowledge that opponents will have to kick. Full backs learn that they can stand a man up and force him into a mistake, even if he's twice their size. Midfielders (still the strongest athletes have to use their heads as well as their legs). From a coach's perspective, the non-competitive angle does allow you to t**ker with positions and give you more room to give weaker players a lengthier run out.

But there's clear downsides too. The weakest players just don't figure in the way anyone would hope they could. They tend to be too far off the pace in terms of athleticism, or interest levels, or both. Truth is, football is no more or less likely to be their medium term pursuit, than it was for 10 year olds of a similar ilk from 30 years ago. This sounds cruel, but when the weakest players manage to pair off against each other, it's a something of a relief for both sets of coaches. The lower mid-level players get many more touches (i assume) than in the "olden days" but they're usually little more than ball walls for the stronger players to get a rebound from. I guess the stronger mid-level players benefit the most: the rules mean the stronger players want and need them to get better and encourage them along.

But the biggest concern from my limited experience is just how more tuned in stronger players get when they go to a tournament. It could be 4 teams or 40 teams in the field, it doesn't matter. If there's a cup and medals to play for, the interest levels and efforts of the stronger players go through the roof. Which personally I love to see happening. It just makes me wonder if the development leagues are actually suitable for the development of stronger players. Going through the motions in a series of "fun league" fixtures probably isn't helping them.

Long way of saying I don't know if it's good or bad, I suppose.