Poll

Are you in favour of repealing the 8th amendment?

Yes
47 (21.8%)
Yes but have no vote
73 (33.8%)
No
40 (18.5%)
No but have no vote
36 (16.7%)
Undecided
20 (9.3%)

Total Members Voted: 216

Voting closed: May 24, 2018, 03:36:55 PM

Author Topic: Eighth Amendment poll  (Read 27177 times)

Syferus

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #780 on: May 24, 2018, 05:54:02 PM »
Sid....out of curiosity how many 12 year old rape victims fell pregnant in Ireland last year?


While it could happen, and it probably has happened my guess is that it accounts for 0.0001% of all pregnancies. 

Think about it for a moment....thats # 1 in your list of things that you accuse No voters of condoning

Please stop.

sid waddell

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #781 on: May 24, 2018, 05:54:44 PM »
Sid....out of curiosity how many 12 year old rape victims fell pregnant in Ireland last year?


While it could happen, and it probably has happened my guess is that it accounts for 0.0001% of all pregnancies. 

Think about it for a moment....thats # 1 in your list of things that you accuse No voters of condoning
How many 12 year olds were made pregnant by rape is a total irrelevance (there was a high profile case of such in 2017).

The issue is that it can happen.

The constitution is currently set up to force such a victim to give birth against their will.

It wouldn't matter it if it was, hypothetically, 1 case in 35 years.

It wouldn't matter if it was 0 in 35 years.

The point is that the constitution is set up to abandon such victims.

That, on its own, is reason enough to abolish the 8th Amendment.




macdanger2

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #782 on: May 24, 2018, 06:15:20 PM »
Sid....out of curiosity how many 12 year old rape victims fell pregnant in Ireland last year?


While it could happen, and it probably has happened my guess is that it accounts for 0.0001% of all pregnancies. 

Think about it for a moment....thats # 1 in your list of things that you accuse No voters of condoning
How many 12 year olds were made pregnant by rape is a total irrelevance (there was a high profile case of such in 2017).

The issue is that it can happen.

The constitution is currently set up to force such a victim to give birth against their will.

It wouldn't matter it if it was, hypothetically, 1 case in 35 years.

It wouldn't matter if it was 0 in 35 years.

The point is that the constitution is set up to abandon such victims.

That, on its own, is reason enough to abolish the 8th Amendment.

Of all the "hard" cases, this is one that could be legislated for very easily though.

gallsman

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #783 on: May 24, 2018, 06:21:23 PM »
Sid....out of curiosity how many 12 year old rape victims fell pregnant in Ireland last year?


While it could happen, and it probably has happened my guess is that it accounts for 0.0001% of all pregnancies. 

Think about it for a moment....thats # 1 in your list of things that you accuse No voters of condoning
How many 12 year olds were made pregnant by rape is a total irrelevance (there was a high profile case of such in 2017).

The issue is that it can happen.

The constitution is currently set up to force such a victim to give birth against their will.

It wouldn't matter it if it was, hypothetically, 1 case in 35 years.

It wouldn't matter if it was 0 in 35 years.

The point is that the constitution is set up to abandon such victims.

That, on its own, is reason enough to abolish the 8th Amendment.

Of all the "hard" cases, this is one that could be legislated for very easily though.

How?
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Syferus

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #784 on: May 24, 2018, 06:23:22 PM »
Sid....out of curiosity how many 12 year old rape victims fell pregnant in Ireland last year?


While it could happen, and it probably has happened my guess is that it accounts for 0.0001% of all pregnancies. 

Think about it for a moment....thats # 1 in your list of things that you accuse No voters of condoning
How many 12 year olds were made pregnant by rape is a total irrelevance (there was a high profile case of such in 2017).

The issue is that it can happen.

The constitution is currently set up to force such a victim to give birth against their will.

It wouldn't matter it if it was, hypothetically, 1 case in 35 years.

It wouldn't matter if it was 0 in 35 years.

The point is that the constitution is set up to abandon such victims.

That, on its own, is reason enough to abolish the 8th Amendment.

Of all the "hard" cases, this is one that could be legislated for very easily though.

Given what we've seen this year, proving rape in a court of law is hardly straight-forward. So then you're likely taking the woman's word on it - this alone is open to obvious abuse, and likely forcing women without the means to travel into making false statements to get a simple medical procedure. That's likely part of the reason the commission's recommendations allows for abortion for without reason up to 12 weeks. It's a conservative and common sense proposal in the realms of abortion legalisation but you'll never hear the no side admit to that fact.

macdanger2

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #785 on: May 24, 2018, 06:47:51 PM »
Sid....out of curiosity how many 12 year old rape victims fell pregnant in Ireland last year?


While it could happen, and it probably has happened my guess is that it accounts for 0.0001% of all pregnancies. 

Think about it for a moment....thats # 1 in your list of things that you accuse No voters of condoning
How many 12 year olds were made pregnant by rape is a total irrelevance (there was a high profile case of such in 2017).

The issue is that it can happen.

The constitution is currently set up to force such a victim to give birth against their will.

It wouldn't matter it if it was, hypothetically, 1 case in 35 years.

It wouldn't matter if it was 0 in 35 years.

The point is that the constitution is set up to abandon such victims.

That, on its own, is reason enough to abolish the 8th Amendment.

Of all the "hard" cases, this is one that could be legislated for very easily though.

How?

Is any under 17 becoming pregnant not automatically statutory rape? I think that's the case but I'm open to correction on it

seafoid

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #786 on: May 24, 2018, 06:57:39 PM »
Article 8 failed completely . Thousands of women choose an abortion every year. Too many women have been forced into grotesque situations. The undoubted energy of the No side should be harnessed for the public good . The public service needs to reformed for example.
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Rossfan

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #787 on: May 24, 2018, 07:36:58 PM »
Alt 40/3/3 a Sheaf.
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2018- 2 Cupeens won, 2 to go.

whitey

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #788 on: May 24, 2018, 07:46:10 PM »
Sid....out of curiosity how many 12 year old rape victims fell pregnant in Ireland last year?


While it could happen, and it probably has happened my guess is that it accounts for 0.0001% of all pregnancies. 

Think about it for a moment....thats # 1 in your list of things that you accuse No voters of condoning
How many 12 year olds were made pregnant by rape is a total irrelevance (there was a high profile case of such in 2017).

The issue is that it can happen.

The constitution is currently set up to force such a victim to give birth against their will.

It wouldn't matter it if it was, hypothetically, 1 case in 35 years.

It wouldn't matter if it was 0 in 35 years.

The point is that the constitution is set up to abandon such victims.

That, on its own, is reason enough to abolish the 8th Amendment.

Of all the "hard" cases, this is one that could be legislated for very easily though.

How?

Is any under 17 becoming pregnant not automatically statutory rape? I think that's the case but I'm open to correction on it

Not sure. Here in the US it varies by state. The age difference between the parties can also be factored into the equation ....e.g. A 17 year old getting his girlfriend pregnant would be viewed much differently under the law than say a 22 year old getting a 17 year old pregnant.

macdanger2

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #789 on: May 24, 2018, 08:08:20 PM »
Sid....out of curiosity how many 12 year old rape victims fell pregnant in Ireland last year?


While it could happen, and it probably has happened my guess is that it accounts for 0.0001% of all pregnancies. 

Think about it for a moment....thats # 1 in your list of things that you accuse No voters of condoning
How many 12 year olds were made pregnant by rape is a total irrelevance (there was a high profile case of such in 2017).

The issue is that it can happen.

The constitution is currently set up to force such a victim to give birth against their will.

It wouldn't matter it if it was, hypothetically, 1 case in 35 years.

It wouldn't matter if it was 0 in 35 years.

The point is that the constitution is set up to abandon such victims.

That, on its own, is reason enough to abolish the 8th Amendment.

Of all the "hard" cases, this is one that could be legislated for very easily though.

How?

Is any under 17 becoming pregnant not automatically statutory rape? I think that's the case but I'm open to correction on it

Not sure. Here in the US it varies by state. The age difference between the parties can also be factored into the equation ....e.g. A 17 year old getting his girlfriend pregnant would be viewed much differently under the law than say a 22 year old getting a 17 year old pregnant.

I'm not sure what it is here tbh but it's something that could be legislated for I'd imagine.

Adult women having been raped is obviously a more difficult proposition, even with the proposed changes, she's going to have to present by ~ 11 weeks or she'll be forced to go to the UK regardless.

Syferus

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #790 on: May 24, 2018, 08:30:53 PM »
Sid....out of curiosity how many 12 year old rape victims fell pregnant in Ireland last year?


While it could happen, and it probably has happened my guess is that it accounts for 0.0001% of all pregnancies. 

Think about it for a moment....thats # 1 in your list of things that you accuse No voters of condoning
How many 12 year olds were made pregnant by rape is a total irrelevance (there was a high profile case of such in 2017).

The issue is that it can happen.

The constitution is currently set up to force such a victim to give birth against their will.

It wouldn't matter it if it was, hypothetically, 1 case in 35 years.

It wouldn't matter if it was 0 in 35 years.

The point is that the constitution is set up to abandon such victims.

That, on its own, is reason enough to abolish the 8th Amendment.

Of all the "hard" cases, this is one that could be legislated for very easily though.

How?

Is any under 17 becoming pregnant not automatically statutory rape? I think that's the case but I'm open to correction on it

Not sure. Here in the US it varies by state. The age difference between the parties can also be factored into the equation ....e.g. A 17 year old getting his girlfriend pregnant would be viewed much differently under the law than say a 22 year old getting a 17 year old pregnant.

I'm not sure what it is here tbh but it's something that could be legislated for I'd imagine.

Adult women having been raped is obviously a more difficult proposition, even with the proposed changes, she's going to have to present by ~ 11 weeks or she'll be forced to go to the UK regardless.

She would have up to 24 weeks if giving birth to a rapist's baby poses a threat to her well-being, which it quite clearly would for the vast majority of women. I highly doubt the woman would need to be verified as suicidal for this to happen, but there would be more gates for abortions between 12 and 24 weeks with two medical professionals having to sign off on it.

Before 12 weeks she wouldn't need to even report she was raped to get an abortion.

sid waddell

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #791 on: May 24, 2018, 08:38:46 PM »
Sid....out of curiosity how many 12 year old rape victims fell pregnant in Ireland last year?


While it could happen, and it probably has happened my guess is that it accounts for 0.0001% of all pregnancies. 

Think about it for a moment....thats # 1 in your list of things that you accuse No voters of condoning
How many 12 year olds were made pregnant by rape is a total irrelevance (there was a high profile case of such in 2017).

The issue is that it can happen.

The constitution is currently set up to force such a victim to give birth against their will.

It wouldn't matter it if it was, hypothetically, 1 case in 35 years.

It wouldn't matter if it was 0 in 35 years.

The point is that the constitution is set up to abandon such victims.

That, on its own, is reason enough to abolish the 8th Amendment.

Of all the "hard" cases, this is one that could be legislated for very easily though.
Em, I think you've forgotten about the 8th Amendment. Any such legislation would be impossible with a No vote.

Should the 8th be abolished, legislation for "exceptions" only should be rejected outright.

We don't want a situation where rape victims are effectively put on trial to obtain an abortion.

As well as that, women are entitled to a right to privacy.

The Supreme Court would pick any such legislation apart in no time.

The proposed legislation is the only workable and compassionate solution.


macdanger2

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #792 on: May 24, 2018, 08:49:28 PM »
Sid....out of curiosity how many 12 year old rape victims fell pregnant in Ireland last year?


While it could happen, and it probably has happened my guess is that it accounts for 0.0001% of all pregnancies. 

Think about it for a moment....thats # 1 in your list of things that you accuse No voters of condoning
How many 12 year olds were made pregnant by rape is a total irrelevance (there was a high profile case of such in 2017).

The issue is that it can happen.

The constitution is currently set up to force such a victim to give birth against their will.

It wouldn't matter it if it was, hypothetically, 1 case in 35 years.

It wouldn't matter if it was 0 in 35 years.

The point is that the constitution is set up to abandon such victims.

That, on its own, is reason enough to abolish the 8th Amendment.

Of all the "hard" cases, this is one that could be legislated for very easily though.

How?

Is any under 17 becoming pregnant not automatically statutory rape? I think that's the case but I'm open to correction on it

Not sure. Here in the US it varies by state. The age difference between the parties can also be factored into the equation ....e.g. A 17 year old getting his girlfriend pregnant would be viewed much differently under the law than say a 22 year old getting a 17 year old pregnant.

I'm not sure what it is here tbh but it's something that could be legislated for I'd imagine.

Adult women having been raped is obviously a more difficult proposition, even with the proposed changes, she's going to have to present by ~ 11 weeks or she'll be forced to go to the UK regardless.

She would have up to 24 weeks if giving birth to a rapist's baby poses a threat to her well-being, which it quite clearly would for the vast majority of women. I highly doubt the woman would need to be verified as suicidal for this to happen, but there would be more gates for abortions between 12 and 24 weeks with two medical professionals having to sign off on it.

Before 12 weeks she wouldn't need to even report she was raped to get an abortion.

I guess that's what would happen alright even though it's not spelled out as catering for rape cases. I for one wouldn't have a problem with rape cases being treated like that.

blast05

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #793 on: May 24, 2018, 09:01:26 PM »
Quote
i) Forcing 12 year old rape victims to give birth against their will
ii) Forcing victims of incest to give birth against their will
iii) Forcing a woman carrying a pregnancy affected by a fatal foetal abnormality to carry that pregnancy to term and act as nothing more than a vessel
iv) Denying pregnant cancer sufferers life-saving treatment
v) Denying basic healthcare such as X-rays to pregnant women or even non-pregnant women until they can prove sufficiently that they are not pregnant
vi) Abandoning women who self-administer abortion in Ireland to a possible nightmarish dilemma beween seeking medical help and risking prison time and not presenting and risking grave health implications
vii) Continuing to stigmatise women who have abortions, thus contributing to mental health problems

Sid, IF there was a mechanism and a wording that could amend the constitution to address points 1 to 3, would that be an acceptable alternative in your view to address those points rather than repealing the 8th (i haven't been following the thread so perhaps you have already commented on that ... if so, apologies for asking again!)?

Point 4 is a tricky one .... treatment is possible in trimester 2 while early deliver is an option in trimester 3. Therefore it is 'only' a 4-6 week window where there is a medical challenge in very rare cases, i.e.: from identification of pregnancy to end of first trimester. I believe such a scenario should also be possible to address in a constitutional amendment up until such time as medicine evolves to ensure cancer is treatable in the first trimester

I'm not clear on your point #5 ... are you suggesting x-rays should be given without a pregnancy question ?

How would you propose to address #6 given that this is such a big problem in the UK (which is a reasonable reference case to compare to). By and large, i would expect that percentage of those who self-administer today to reduce slightly in the event of a Yes + proposed legislation but for significant numbers to self-administer (privacy, cost, convenience, etc)

I don't understand your point #7. Where is there any stigmatisation today ? How can there be when we have no clinics, etc. And do you think a Yes vote will mean no stigmatisation in future ? The opposite would in fact be the case because undoubtedly you would have nut jobs on the 'yes' side standing outside the inevitable private clinics that would spring up or 'yes' insiders in the HSE leaking info of or whatever else.

All in all, removing the 8th is a step to far for me. I am voting 'No', also because of the culture it will create within 5-10 years. If a way to amend the constitution to address your points # 1 to #4 could be identified then i would campaign for a 'Yes'. And lest anyone comment that the citizens Assembly or Oireachtas committee couldn't find a wording - that was with respect to the wording of the Heads of Bill. They should have been empowered to look at a re-wording of the constitution.

whitey

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #794 on: May 24, 2018, 09:22:12 PM »
Sid....out of curiosity how many 12 year old rape victims fell pregnant in Ireland last year?


While it could happen, and it probably has happened my guess is that it accounts for 0.0001% of all pregnancies. 

Think about it for a moment....thats # 1 in your list of things that you accuse No voters of condoning
How many 12 year olds were made pregnant by rape is a total irrelevance (there was a high profile case of such in 2017).

The issue is that it can happen.

The constitution is currently set up to force such a victim to give birth against their will.

It wouldn't matter it if it was, hypothetically, 1 case in 35 years.

It wouldn't matter if it was 0 in 35 years.

The point is that the constitution is set up to abandon such victims.

That, on its own, is reason enough to abolish the 8th Amendment.

So what you're saying is that it is about as common as an 8 1/2 month pregnant women feigning suiciadal thoughts and aborting a perfectly viable baby......which is exactly the argument Ronan Mullen would have for KEEPING the Eight.   

It can happen, and it probably has happened, but it happens so infrequently that it should not be one of the situations that defines the debate
« Last Edit: May 24, 2018, 09:26:39 PM by whitey »