Poll

Are you in favour of repealing the 8th amendment?

Yes
47 (21.8%)
Yes but have no vote
73 (33.8%)
No
40 (18.5%)
No but have no vote
36 (16.7%)
Undecided
20 (9.3%)

Total Members Voted: 216

Voting closed: May 24, 2018, 03:36:55 PM

Author Topic: Eighth Amendment poll  (Read 28457 times)

seafoid

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #750 on: May 24, 2018, 10:56:58 AM »
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/23/the-guardian-view-on-the-abortion-referendum-irelands-choice-will-have-a-global-impactq2w

This is, as it must be, Ireland’s decision. But its impact will not end there. It will be felt first in Northern Ireland, with its own punitive laws, and then globally. The influx of cash from foreign anti-abortion groups shows that the vote must be understood in the context of efforts to roll back rights, from the US to Brazil to Poland. A yes vote would hearten those resisting the pressure, a no vote embolden those trying to ban safe, legal abortions. Moreover, the amendment exports rather than halts abortions. In recent decades more than 150,000 Irish women have travelled to have abortions, mostly to England. Others use smuggled pills, risking prosecution if they subsequently need medical attention.

For the truth is that voters are not deciding whether women should have abortions, but where they have them and under what circumstances. The eighth amendment merely creates unnecessary trauma for women and denies abortion to a small number who are in the most difficult circumstances – unable to travel due to their immigration status, poverty, a controlling partner, or their medical condition. That bar has even proved fatal: Savita Halappanavar died from septicaemia following a miscarriage, having been repeatedly refused an abortion. Though her death led to a new law allowing abortions where the mother’s life is at “substantial” risk, the shock it caused nonetheless galvanised the push for more fundamental reform.

These are the uncomfortable realities of the current system. Set against them are of course deeply rooted moral convictions, but also a no campaign fuelled by myths and downright lies. Proposed new legislation would ensure that controls remained on access to abortion. Liberalisation would not result in the widespread abortion of foetuses with Down’s syndrome, as doctors have made clear. And it is not only insulting but flagrantly untrue to suggest that women will seek abortion on a whim.

These attempts to twist facts and stoke sentiment reflect a reactionary, cynical populism familiar from the pro-Brexit and Trump campaigns. Save the Eighth campaigners have urged the public not to trust politicians and have painted themselves as brave anti-establishment voices, latching on to a half-truth: for Ireland has indeed undergone a profound shift in its social attitudes, and what was once controversial now looks like common sense to many. In 1983, 67% of voters supported introducing the amendment. This time, the outcome is too close to call. The taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, has campaigned for yes, though less vigorously than many had hoped. 
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Mayo4Sam

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #751 on: May 24, 2018, 11:06:34 AM »
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/23/the-guardian-view-on-the-abortion-referendum-irelands-choice-will-have-a-global-impactq2w

This is, as it must be, Ireland’s decision. But its impact will not end there. It will be felt first in Northern Ireland, with its own punitive laws, and then globally. The influx of cash from foreign anti-abortion groups shows that the vote must be understood in the context of efforts to roll back rights, from the US to Brazil to Poland. A yes vote would hearten those resisting the pressure, a no vote embolden those trying to ban safe, legal abortions. Moreover, the amendment exports rather than halts abortions. In recent decades more than 150,000 Irish women have travelled to have abortions, mostly to England. Others use smuggled pills, risking prosecution if they subsequently need medical attention.

For the truth is that voters are not deciding whether women should have abortions, but where they have them and under what circumstances. The eighth amendment merely creates unnecessary trauma for women and denies abortion to a small number who are in the most difficult circumstances – unable to travel due to their immigration status, poverty, a controlling partner, or their medical condition. That bar has even proved fatal: Savita Halappanavar died from septicaemia following a miscarriage, having been repeatedly refused an abortion. Though her death led to a new law allowing abortions where the mother’s life is at “substantial” risk, the shock it caused nonetheless galvanised the push for more fundamental reform.

These are the uncomfortable realities of the current system. Set against them are of course deeply rooted moral convictions, but also a no campaign fuelled by myths and downright lies. Proposed new legislation would ensure that controls remained on access to abortion. Liberalisation would not result in the widespread abortion of foetuses with Down’s syndrome, as doctors have made clear. And it is not only insulting but flagrantly untrue to suggest that women will seek abortion on a whim.

These attempts to twist facts and stoke sentiment reflect a reactionary, cynical populism familiar from the pro-Brexit and Trump campaigns. Save the Eighth campaigners have urged the public not to trust politicians and have painted themselves as brave anti-establishment voices, latching on to a half-truth: for Ireland has indeed undergone a profound shift in its social attitudes, and what was once controversial now looks like common sense to many. In 1983, 67% of voters supported introducing the amendment. This time, the outcome is too close to call. The taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, has campaigned for yes, though less vigorously than many had hoped.

Excellent point Seafoid, very good post IMO

The comparison to Trump is very apt I think. The attitude of people who were against Trump reminds me of the YES people and this thread has been a perfect example. Their aggressive behaviour is more likely to push middle of the road people away from their point than towards it
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sid waddell

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #752 on: May 24, 2018, 11:07:19 AM »
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/23/the-guardian-view-on-the-abortion-referendum-irelands-choice-will-have-a-global-impactq2w

Save the Eighth campaigners have urged the public not to trust politicians and have painted themselves as brave anti-establishment voices
Declan Ganley, Maria Steen, David Quinn and Ronan Mullen call themselves "anti-establishment".

While the "establishment", in their world, are:
Savita Halppanavar, Michelle Harte, women made pregnant by rape, women carrying a foetus with a fatal foetal abnormality and who don't want to be reduced to a vessel, the over 170,000 Irish women who travelled for an abortion since 1980, and the thousands of women who have to self-admister abortion at home without medical supervision.

That isn't a Fox News-level of Orwellian bullshit.

It's something way, way beyond that.

seafoid

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #753 on: May 24, 2018, 11:08:47 AM »
The Irish abortion regime and N Ireland are 2 of the biggest hangovers from British colonialism imo. The Irish church that emerged after catholic emancipation in the 1830s was more English Victorian than Irish. It promoted the use of English and had no cultural links to the Irish past. It focused almost entirely on sexuality rather than socio economic issues that were far more important to punters. It never addressed mass immigration. Fought tampons in the 50s. FFS
The mother and baby homes such as the one in Tuam  were based on English workhouses and staffed by religious.
England was the source of all evil and a handy location for offsite abortions.
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easytiger95

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #754 on: May 24, 2018, 11:12:11 AM »
As I said before on the thread, I'll be voting yes.

The debate has depressed me for numerous reasons - mostly that I could see the same strains of populism and disregard for the facts that we have seen in other important democratic moments over the past decade all over the world.

It has also brought home how easily an issue can become globalised, both in terms of funding and coverage, and the pernicious effect that social media has on debate.

It is not a great time for democracy, and I think it is incumbent on all who are casting their votes tomorrow to reflect on how precious it is to be able to do so, without (in the main) intimidation or coercion. It is up to all to make sure we keep it that way, no matter what the issue.

That said, I think there some grounds for optimism. The Citizens Assembly is truly a ground breaking forum and is being studied by political scientists from all over the world. Whether we repeal or not, it has been a really brave experiment in direct democracy.

I also think the Oireachtas Committee tasked with making the recommendations also did a great job, and I think should be an example of the thought and gravitas legislators gave the subject. In general, I think the political class has handled the debate well without undue rancour. It might be a comfort to those who despair of leaving decisions to our politicians, that not many were trying to make hay out of this. This issue transcends partisan politics and in the future, should the 8th be repealed, I hope that attitude influences any proposed legislation.

In the end (and just to qualify, this is all just my opinion), if the 8th is repealed, we may be embarking on a new phase of our life as a republic. It is a bit trite maybe to describe it as being more grown up, but certainly the act of looking at and trying to resolve this issue shows a maturing of our attitudes. No individual ever gets to be the adult person they actually hoped to be - and I know those who wish to save the 8th may abhor the changes that may come. But, we will have changed as a country, aged, and looking at ourselves in a different light. That may be a harsh light, but I honestly think it will be better for us all than the darkness that has surrounded abortion for the past 40 years.

Whoever can vote, get out there and do so, no matter what cause you support - as I said before, the only regret anyone can have in all this is not using their vote.


Rudi

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #755 on: May 24, 2018, 11:27:02 AM »
The Oireachtas Committee made a complete ham out of the repeal. On obvious grounds I would vote yes. But what they came up with no.

sid waddell

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #756 on: May 24, 2018, 11:27:18 AM »

The debate has depressed me for numerous reasons - mostly that I could see the same strains of populism and disregard for the facts that we have seen in other important democratic moments over the past decade all over the world.

The No campaign in the 2015 same sex marriage referendum, Brexit, Trump and the No campaign in this referendum might as well have all been the same campaign.

The same rhetoric, the same appeals to imagined victimhood, the same bogus claims of "bullying", the same Orwellian claims from pillars of the establishement that they are "anti-establishment", the same trolling, the same avoidance of the real issues.

These people don't take democracy seriously. They are con artists preying on the weak.



seafoid

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #757 on: May 24, 2018, 11:43:56 AM »
As I said before on the thread, I'll be voting yes.

The debate has depressed me for numerous reasons - mostly that I could see the same strains of populism and disregard for the facts that we have seen in other important democratic moments over the past decade all over the world.

It has also brought home how easily an issue can become globalised, both in terms of funding and coverage, and the pernicious effect that social media has on debate.

It is not a great time for democracy, and I think it is incumbent on all who are casting their votes tomorrow to reflect on how precious it is to be able to do so, without (in the main) intimidation or coercion. It is up to all to make sure we keep it that way, no matter what the issue.

That said, I think there some grounds for optimism. The Citizens Assembly is truly a ground breaking forum and is being studied by political scientists from all over the world. Whether we repeal or not, it has been a really brave experiment in direct democracy.

I also think the Oireachtas Committee tasked with making the recommendations also did a great job, and I think should be an example of the thought and gravitas legislators gave the subject. In general, I think the political class has handled the debate well without undue rancour. It might be a comfort to those who despair of leaving decisions to our politicians, that not many were trying to make hay out of this. This issue transcends partisan politics and in the future, should the 8th be repealed, I hope that attitude influences any proposed legislation.

In the end (and just to qualify, this is all just my opinion), if the 8th is repealed, we may be embarking on a new phase of our life as a republic. It is a bit trite maybe to describe it as being more grown up, but certainly the act of looking at and trying to resolve this issue shows a maturing of our attitudes. No individual ever gets to be the adult person they actually hoped to be - and I know those who wish to save the 8th may abhor the changes that may come. But, we will have changed as a country, aged, and looking at ourselves in a different light. That may be a harsh light, but I honestly think it will be better for us all than the darkness that has surrounded abortion for the past 40 years.

Whoever can vote, get out there and do so, no matter what cause you support - as I said before, the only regret anyone can have in all this is not using their vote.
I would agree about the Citizens assembly. It was quite innovative and it gave the politicians the confidence to deal with this issue head on.
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Itchy

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #758 on: May 24, 2018, 11:44:57 AM »

The debate has depressed me for numerous reasons - mostly that I could see the same strains of populism and disregard for the facts that we have seen in other important democratic moments over the past decade all over the world.

The No campaign in the 2015 same sex marriage referendum, Brexit, Trump and the No campaign in this referendum might as well have all been the same campaign.

The same rhetoric, the same appeals to imagined victimhood, the same bogus claims of "bullying", the same Orwellian claims from pillars of the establishement that they are "anti-establishment", the same trolling, the same avoidance of the real issues.

These people don't take democracy seriously. They are con artists preying on the weak.

Sid - Your contribution on here has been nothing but a turn off to anyone who was wavering in the centre. I expect you have driven more undecideds towards No and away from Yes. You clearly didnt intend to do that so I suggest you take a look at how you have been conducting yourself as I dont see much difference in you and the people you are calling trolls, imagined victims etc

Rossfan

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #759 on: May 24, 2018, 11:54:42 AM »
Gaaboarders
Yes 43.4%
No 37.7%
Undecided 18.9%
Undecideds excluded - 53.5 to 46.5 Yes.

Does that "Sid" ever post on GAA matters?
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magpie seanie

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #760 on: May 24, 2018, 11:55:35 AM »
The sooner this referendum is over the better. Jesus it’s bitter stuff!!

Absolutely, both sides as bad as each other in my opinion. Its depressing.


Honestly, despite some poor contributions from Yes voters on here, they are not the same. From being involved on the ground I can tell you some of the things that aren't publicised would make your eyes water. I think the Yes side, the vast majority, have been very restrained in the face of some shocking carry on.

seafoid

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #761 on: May 24, 2018, 12:09:05 PM »
Gaaboarders
Yes 43.4%
No 37.7%
Undecided 18.9%
Undecideds excluded - 53.5 to 46.5 Yes.

Does that "Sid" ever post on GAA matters?
He does. He had a great post about the Mayo quest for Shangri La last year
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seafoid

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #762 on: May 24, 2018, 12:12:52 PM »

The debate has depressed me for numerous reasons - mostly that I could see the same strains of populism and disregard for the facts that we have seen in other important democratic moments over the past decade all over the world.

The No campaign in the 2015 same sex marriage referendum, Brexit, Trump and the No campaign in this referendum might as well have all been the same campaign.

The same rhetoric, the same appeals to imagined victimhood, the same bogus claims of "bullying", the same Orwellian claims from pillars of the establishement that they are "anti-establishment", the same trolling, the same avoidance of the real issues.

These people don't take democracy seriously. They are con artists preying on the weak.
Trump and Brxit were 2 "populist" moments where the plutocrats plamased working class voters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vST61W4bGm8&t=11s
The Republican party are  tearing down worker protections via the Supreme Court. If brexit gos ahead EU worker protection will be dumped.

 
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sid waddell

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #763 on: May 24, 2018, 12:20:43 PM »

The debate has depressed me for numerous reasons - mostly that I could see the same strains of populism and disregard for the facts that we have seen in other important democratic moments over the past decade all over the world.

The No campaign in the 2015 same sex marriage referendum, Brexit, Trump and the No campaign in this referendum might as well have all been the same campaign.

The same rhetoric, the same appeals to imagined victimhood, the same bogus claims of "bullying", the same Orwellian claims from pillars of the establishement that they are "anti-establishment", the same trolling, the same avoidance of the real issues.

These people don't take democracy seriously. They are con artists preying on the weak.

Sid - Your contribution on here has been nothing but a turn off to anyone who was wavering in the centre. I expect you have driven more undecideds towards No and away from Yes. You clearly didnt intend to do that so I suggest you take a look at how you have been conducting yourself as I dont see much difference in you and the people you are calling trolls, imagined victims etc

I'm not interested in the hurt feelings of posters, of which there are a lot on this thread.

I'm interested in the reality of the issues - which few enough posters appear to be.

And the reality is by supporting No, people are supporting a hardline extremist position.

That's their prerogative - if people are intent on denying reality, you can never change their minds.

The Yes position and my position couldn't be more centrist here.



whitey

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Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« Reply #764 on: May 24, 2018, 12:25:09 PM »
The unfortunate thing is the the public debate is being dominated by people with extreme views

Cora Sherlock and Ronan Mullen would force a 12 year old rape victim to carry a foetus to term and then put it up for adoption

On the other hand Brid Smith and Ruth Coppinger would allow an abortion up to and including the date of birth

I haven't lived in Ireland for almost thirty years but I would imagine 90% of the population find both of those stances equally objectionable. There will always be difficult and extreme cases, but the debate should focus on what happens in 99% of cases