woman dies for want of a abortion

Started by guy crouchback, November 14, 2012, 04:14:37 PM

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J70

Iceman, I would be personally against abortion myself and agree pretty much with what you've written.

It's a difficult issue though. Where do you draw the line with respect to the health of the mother? Should a woman be forced to carry a rapist's child to term? I don't see how I or anyone else has the right to make that demand, regardless of the fact that the life of an unborn baby is on the line.

And it's an issue Ireland has not had to properly reckon with until now due to the relief valve provided by England. As horrific as I now find the idea of abortion, I was happy enough in my teen and early-20s relationships when one or two girlfriends told me I'd never know if they got pregnant, because she'd be off to England and back without my ever knowing about it. And to this day, I've no issue with the morning after pill, which I understand might not be the case for a devout catholic as yourself.

gallsman

Quote from: AQMP on January 19, 2018, 02:00:00 PM
Quote from: gallsman on January 19, 2018, 01:58:21 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on January 19, 2018, 01:10:04 PM
Most children diagnosed with these abnormalities live beyond birth. Some for months.  However short that life is they deserve it as much as me and you.
It's not up to us to decide who lives or dies. I challenge anyone who believes otherwise to watch a video of an abortion taking place and listen to testimonies from nurses and doctors who worked in abortion clinics and performed abortions themselves about what really happens....

Why should anyone give a flying f**k what the doctor or nurse thinks? It's not their body.

Would you intervene if you saw a woman self-harming or about to jump from a bridge?

If you have one, what's your point?

AQMP

Quote from: gallsman on January 19, 2018, 02:16:37 PM
Quote from: AQMP on January 19, 2018, 02:00:00 PM
Quote from: gallsman on January 19, 2018, 01:58:21 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on January 19, 2018, 01:10:04 PM
Most children diagnosed with these abnormalities live beyond birth. Some for months.  However short that life is they deserve it as much as me and you.
It's not up to us to decide who lives or dies. I challenge anyone who believes otherwise to watch a video of an abortion taking place and listen to testimonies from nurses and doctors who worked in abortion clinics and performed abortions themselves about what really happens....

Why should anyone give a flying f**k what the doctor or nurse thinks? It's not their body.

Would you intervene if you saw a woman self-harming or about to jump from a bridge?

If you have one, what's your point?

Tis a simple question.

The Iceman

Quote from: J70 on January 19, 2018, 02:05:22 PM
Iceman, I would be personally against abortion myself and agree pretty much with what you've written.

It's a difficult issue though. Where do you draw the line with respect to the health of the mother? Should a woman be forced to carry a rapist's child to term? I don't see how I or anyone else has the right to make that demand, regardless of the fact that the life of an unborn baby is on the line.

And it's an issue Ireland has not had to properly reckon with until now due to the relief valve provided by England. As horrific as I now find the idea of abortion, I was happy enough in my teen and early-20s relationships when one or two girlfriends told me I'd never know if they got pregnant, because she'd be off to England and back without my ever knowing about it. And to this day, I've no issue with the morning after pill, which I understand might not be the case for a devout catholic as yourself.
I think its about changing the narrative J70. Forcing a woman....I think with proper counseling and support a woman can carry a baby full term and we would gladly take the child and there's many more who would too.  I have a friend who went on a mission trip to Africa. She was raped by a local man and came home devastated. She decided to put the baby up for adoption.  Having a black child in Belfast 10 years ago for a single woman as a result of rape...but to her credit on seeing the baby she kept her. A lovely girl and relationship they have now too. All the instances don't finish so well but they all start the same. Some light and some goodness can come out of every situation.
I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight

Syferus

#229
Abortion is nesscary. Whether you disagree what the limits of it should be, it simply is.

There's too many edge cases to say it shouldn't happen at all. The suggestion above that a woman should be forced to bring a baby stemming from rape to term is genuinely disgusting. It's entirely a matter of personal choice - if the person wants to, there should be supports but no one should judge a woman who chooses a different path. Anecdotal cases as evidence is such a logical fallacy it's hard to see how it could be used to contribute to a wider legislation debate. That is position zero for discussion on abortion as far as I'm concerned.

I have huge respect for Michael Martin coming out and stating his personal position even if it is somewhat politically controversial.

AQMP

Quote from: Syferus on January 19, 2018, 02:50:31 PM
Abortion is nesscary. Whether you disagree what the limits of it should be, it simply is.

There's too many edge cases to say it shouldn't happen at all. The suggestion above that a woman should be forced to bring a baby stemming from rape to term is genuinely disgusting. It's entirely a matter of personal choice - if the person wants to, there should be supports but no one should judge a woman who chooses a different path. Anecdotal cases as evidence is such a logical fallacy it's hard to see how it could be used to contribute to a wider legislation debate. That is position zero for discussion on abortion as far as I'm concerned.

I have huge respect for Michael Martin coming out and stating his personal position even if it is somewhat politically controversial.

After Repeal of the 8th, a woman presents at clinic saying she's pregnant and would like an abortion because she was raped.  Is that enough for an abortion to be carried out?


Syferus

Quote from: AQMP on January 19, 2018, 03:07:09 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 19, 2018, 02:50:31 PM
Abortion is nesscary. Whether you disagree what the limits of it should be, it simply is.

There's too many edge cases to say it shouldn't happen at all. The suggestion above that a woman should be forced to bring a baby stemming from rape to term is genuinely disgusting. It's entirely a matter of personal choice - if the person wants to, there should be supports but no one should judge a woman who chooses a different path. Anecdotal cases as evidence is such a logical fallacy it's hard to see how it could be used to contribute to a wider legislation debate. That is position zero for discussion on abortion as far as I'm concerned.

I have huge respect for Michael Martin coming out and stating his personal position even if it is somewhat politically controversial.

After Repeal of the 8th, a woman presents at clinic saying she's pregnant and would like an abortion because she was raped.  Is that enough for an abortion to be carried out?

As it stands why would she say she was raped? The recommendations as they stand mean you can get an abortion for any reason up to 12 weeks.

You invented a strawman just to knock over there.

AQMP

Quote from: Syferus on January 19, 2018, 03:11:18 PM
Quote from: AQMP on January 19, 2018, 03:07:09 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 19, 2018, 02:50:31 PM
Abortion is nesscary. Whether you disagree what the limits of it should be, it simply is.

There's too many edge cases to say it shouldn't happen at all. The suggestion above that a woman should be forced to bring a baby stemming from rape to term is genuinely disgusting. It's entirely a matter of personal choice - if the person wants to, there should be supports but no one should judge a woman who chooses a different path. Anecdotal cases as evidence is such a logical fallacy it's hard to see how it could be used to contribute to a wider legislation debate. That is position zero for discussion on abortion as far as I'm concerned.

I have huge respect for Michael Martin coming out and stating his personal position even if it is somewhat politically controversial.

After Repeal of the 8th, a woman presents at clinic saying she's pregnant and would like an abortion because she was raped.  Is that enough for an abortion to be carried out?

As it stands why would she say she was raped? The recommendations as they stand mean you can get an abortion for any reason up to 12 weeks.

You invented a strawman just to knock over there.

Point taken, I'm obviously not an expert on proposed legislation.  Genuine question...will there be scope for termination after 12 weeks or is it anything up to 12 weeks and nothing thereafter?

Rossfan

#233
There is no proposed legislation just recommendations from a Dàil Committee.
Government has to decide firstly what they will put to the people - a proposal to simply delete Art 40/3/3 or some replacement Sub article.
If the former and it's passed then Government can legislate for whatever the Dàil passes.

Is Micky Martin expressing a deeply held personal view or has he read the tea leaves and wants FF on the popular side? Or just after the suburban middle class vote?
Poor Eugene Murphy not impressed anyway.
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

thebigfella

Quote from: The Iceman on January 19, 2018, 02:29:50 PM
Quote from: J70 on January 19, 2018, 02:05:22 PM
Iceman, I would be personally against abortion myself and agree pretty much with what you've written.

It's a difficult issue though. Where do you draw the line with respect to the health of the mother? Should a woman be forced to carry a rapist's child to term? I don't see how I or anyone else has the right to make that demand, regardless of the fact that the life of an unborn baby is on the line.

And it's an issue Ireland has not had to properly reckon with until now due to the relief valve provided by England. As horrific as I now find the idea of abortion, I was happy enough in my teen and early-20s relationships when one or two girlfriends told me I'd never know if they got pregnant, because she'd be off to England and back without my ever knowing about it. And to this day, I've no issue with the morning after pill, which I understand might not be the case for a devout catholic as yourself.
I think its about changing the narrative J70. Forcing a woman....I think with proper counseling and support a woman can carry a baby full term and we would gladly take the child and there's many more who would too.  I have a friend who went on a mission trip to Africa. She was raped by a local man and came home devastated. She decided to put the baby up for adoption.  Having a black child in Belfast 10 years ago for a single woman as a result of rape...but to her credit on seeing the baby she kept her. A lovely girl and relationship they have now too. All the instances don't finish so well but they all start the same. Some light and some goodness can come out of every situation.

I think  ::) 

seafoid

Quote from: Syferus on January 19, 2018, 02:50:31 PM
Abortion is nesscary. Whether you disagree what the limits of it should be, it simply is.

There's too many edge cases to say it shouldn't happen at all. The suggestion above that a woman should be forced to bring a baby stemming from rape to term is genuinely disgusting. It's entirely a matter of personal choice - if the person wants to, there should be supports but no one should judge a woman who chooses a different path. Anecdotal cases as evidence is such a logical fallacy it's hard to see how it could be used to contribute to a wider legislation debate. That is position zero for discussion on abortion as far as I'm concerned.

I have huge respect for Michael Martin coming out and stating his personal position even if it is somewhat politically controversial.
I agree

Article 8 didn't work. There were some unnecessary deaths.
The worst case was the dead woman whose organs were kept going .
Women want change.
Article 8 was voted on the year before Joanne Hayes was accused of murder. Not long before Ann Lovett died.
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

Rossfan

On a point if order it's Article 40/3/3.
It was the 8th amendment to Bunreacht na hÉireann.
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

Syferus

Quote from: Rossfan on January 19, 2018, 03:43:30 PM
There is no proposed legislation just recommendations from a Dàil Committee.
Government has to decide firstly what they will put to the people - a proposal to simply delete Art 40/3/3 or some replacement Sub article.
If the former and it's passed then Government can legislate for whatever the Dàil passes.

Is Micky Martin expressing a deeply held personal view or has he read the tea leaves and wants FF on the popular side? Or just after the suburban middle class vote?
Poor Eugene Murphy not impressed anyway.

Abortion is a personal decision rather than a political one. So far the approach by the two major parties has been pretty mature and level-headed, leaving TDs to decide what they support and being freely able to campaign for their desired outcome. Whatever side wins it will hurt people politically as much as it will help them.

gallsman

#238
Quote from: AQMP on January 19, 2018, 02:23:09 PM
Quote from: gallsman on January 19, 2018, 02:16:37 PM
Quote from: AQMP on January 19, 2018, 02:00:00 PM
Quote from: gallsman on January 19, 2018, 01:58:21 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on January 19, 2018, 01:10:04 PM
Most children diagnosed with these abnormalities live beyond birth. Some for months.  However short that life is they deserve it as much as me and you.
It's not up to us to decide who lives or dies. I challenge anyone who believes otherwise to watch a video of an abortion taking place and listen to testimonies from nurses and doctors who worked in abortion clinics and performed abortions themselves about what really happens....

Why should anyone give a flying f**k what the doctor or nurse thinks? It's not their body.

Would you intervene if you saw a woman self-harming or about to jump from a bridge?

If you have one, what's your point?

Tis a simple question.

It is, but one that bears zero relevance to the topic at hand, so I'll refrain from bothering to answer it, although the answer should be obvious.

gallsman

Quote from: The Iceman on January 19, 2018, 02:29:50 PM
I think its about changing the narrative J70. Forcing a woman....I think with proper counseling and support a woman can carry a baby full term and we would gladly take the child and there's many more who would too.  I have a friend who went on a mission trip to Africa. She was raped by a local man and came home devastated. She decided to put the baby up for adoption.  Having a black child in Belfast 10 years ago for a single woman as a result of rape...but to her credit on seeing the baby she kept her. A lovely girl and relationship they have now too. All the instances don't finish so well but they all start the same. Some light and some goodness can come out of every situation.

The narrative?! Are you f**king kidding?! Someone not wanting to carry a rapist's but having to by law is "a narrative"?

Congrats to your friend, that's great for her. If Mary from Dublin is raped and becomes pregnant as a result, it is none of your f**king business whatsoever to be saying she should carry to term because there's counseling to get her through it.