Hurling provincial system does not work

Started by johnny, April 02, 2007, 06:02:33 PM

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johnny

Anyone think the GAA will ever get sense and open up the hurling championship so that it's actually good.
Hurling is dying a death because of this archaic system which involves 1 team from Leinster, 5 teams from Munster and 1 from Connaught. Hardly provincial is it when the only province with any competition is Munster.
Why the GAA continue on with this is beyond me, I'm sure the Munster teams would oppose any change to the rules as it's a title for them to go for but come on lads, hurling is being turned from a great sport to a shambles because they're not moving with the times.
The way I see it, you have 32 counties ... easily makes for a knockout championship really.. 32 - 16 - 8 - 4 - 2 ... granted not all teams have hurling teams but that's luck of the draw ... so what if Kilkenny and Cork meet in the first round and one of them gets knocked out, wouldn't that open things up and allow potential for many teams to come through.
The All-Ireland is a farce, the league actually demonstrates the best team in the country yet no-one follows it cos for some reason the all-ireland is rated higher.

As an example just look at the FA cup in england, how many times has a little team frightened a bigger one and some have even gone to win it, smaller counties deserve their day out in Crokers too! Even if they tried it for one season, I'm sure Nicky Brennan would have to see some sort of benefit.

Spiritof98

Agree that something has to be done, but I cant say that your idea is worth a look at.
I'll go back if Marsdens back

Redgreenery

Ya somthing has to be done but with some counties they don't have the material for Championship hurling or just artent interested in playing Championship hurling. :-\
The 32-16-8-4-2 isnt the worst idea i've heard but I wouldnt say anything will be done at all in the near future.

BallyhaiseMan

Johnny
all 32 counties have hurling teams in the National League,as well as the New Yorks/London.
The system at the moment isnt working.
But an open draw system wouldnt work, any draw would need some sort of seedings to work,Because can you imagine

Kilkenny V Cavan
Cork V Fermanagh
Tipp V Leitrim etc,There would be cricket scores.

Redgreenery

Thats true or what if say Kilkenny v Cork ended up coming out in the first round, that would lose a huge amount of interest from whichever county loses but I suppose it would throw the other final place wide open and create more interest for the likes of Tipp, Clare, etc...

BallyhaiseMan

8 Groups
4 teams each with 2 groups with 5 IF New York/London involved

im just using these teams as an example(with stronger teams in A,B and C)

(A)
Kilkenny
Limerick
Galway
Clare

(B)
Wexford
Tipperary
Waterford
Cork

(C)

Offaly
Antrim
Dublin
Laois

(D)
Westmeath
Kerry
Down
Mayo
London

(E)
Derry
Wicklow
Armagh
Carlow
New York

(F)
Kildare
Sligo
Meath
Roscommon

(G)
Tyrone
Monaghan
Donegal
Louth

(H)
Longford
Leitrim
Fermanagh
Cavan

Each team plays each other

3 teams from A and B go through.
2 teams from C, D , E and F.
1 team from G and H qualify,

(teams that dont qualify can play for Ring and Rackard cups)

now you have your last 16,you could go open draw here,but you could still get some serious mismatches Cork/Longford etc or you could have seedings etc.


highking

If you wanted to do it that way you would have to introdue a step-ladder system. ie Worst 8 in the country play off. Winners join next best twelve for round 2. Winners join the next best 8 for round 3. Winners of round 3 play the elite 8 teams in round 4. Then round5, q-finals and semi finals. Byes may be needed in round 1.

This wouldnt work as not enough big games for top sides, and there would be a few hammerings along the way also.

Remember that the people who implement and vote for change are the full time employees and head officers of the provincial councils. Are they going to take the power of big games away from themselves? I dont think so. Turkeys dont vote for Christmas .

tayto

It'll never go to a straight knockout again, teams need more then one championship match per year.

The Munster champioship is working fine. I honeslty think Galway and Antrim with the top Leinster counties playing in a rest of Ireland championship is the way forward, the Ring and Rackard cups seem to me to be working well. I think next years First Division will be a big improvment in terms of the league. Something they could do is link league position to home advantage in the first round of the championship, or have league position denote who has to play prelim rounds, the higher finishing counties wouldnt have to play prelim rounds ... might encourage more  counties to take the league more seriously, you still seem to have some teams going through the motions in the league.

Redgreenery

Quote from: tayto on April 02, 2007, 08:50:10 PM
you still seem to have some teams going through the motions in the league.
Dublin is a good example of this, drawing v Kilkenny.

TBT

The provincial system works v fine in Munster, thank you v much. Anyone that says otherwise is either a KKman or knows nothing about the sport.

Apportionging hurling's ills to a championship structure is just plain lazy and the sort of thing you'd expect from the likes of Martin Brehony. What ever system you use won't matter a damn when two sides are out on the pitch in championship battle or change the fact that the standard of hurling in Leinster, outside of KK, is crap.

thefont

there is a solution to this which ticks all boxes i believe - I think look at american sports where traditional rivalries and cups are accomodated in bigger leagues, and where all roads lead to an ultimeate championship match or final.

the munster conference

clare, cork, limerick, tip, waterford - the munster final.

the leinster conference

Kilkenny, Wexford, Offaly, Galway, Dublin, Antrim. - the leinster final.


all ireland final, munster v leinster.

each team plays the teams in their own conference every year, alternatinig home and away as appropriate

munster = 4 games
leinster = 5 games

they then play 3 extra interconference games (leinster), 4 for munster giving a total of 8 games, the best 2 in each conference play each other for the provincial title, the provincial winners playoff for the all ireland..

NB the League would be scrapped

what this would achieve

more meaningful games for all tier one teams giving them a chance to develop

finally all the provincial grounds will be used and showcased

much better tv product

Championship may be a little longer but no league will leave more time for club fixtures to be played, help reduce player burn out

it is fair, each of the two finalist will have played nine games to get to the final, plus kilkenny will play at least three munster teams every year.

All teams will play each other at least once every two years - therefore interprovincial rivalries like galway clare and kilkenny waterford will happen on a more regular basis and draw crowds

the tradition of munster is preserved: if absolutely necessary the munster championship could be awarded on the basis of games only against munster opponents and the all ireland finalists from the munster conference could be decided on the overall aggregate of wins included interconference matches (to ensure both all ireland finalists have played an equal amount of games)

From the point of view of a weaker team like say Dublin, a one off win like the one they had against Galway (or the draw against Killkenny) would mean a lot more as it would genuinely hurt the title ambitions of one of the big counties -, when it happens in the league no one really gives a shit, and in the Leinster championship Dublin only get one chance to cause an upset every year and then its into the forgone conclusion of the qualifiers which attracts very little spectators. It gives weaker teams a chance to build and blood players year on year.

the only thing this systam cannot guarantee is that kilkenny will ever be bad or even average again alas!

tayto

Quote from: Redgreenery on April 02, 2007, 09:01:35 PM
Quote from: tayto on April 02, 2007, 08:50:10 PM
you still seem to have some teams going through the motions in the league.
Dublin is a good example of this, drawing v Kilkenny.

i know, if we were trying we'd have bet them out the gate.  :P

Kilkenny are famous for not trying in the league.  ???

slow corner back

I like the idea of linking the league and the championship, it adds a bit of spice to the league. As someone said earlier keep the Munster championship as is and have a rest of ireland chanpionship. This championship should include the top 12 teams in the country. From next year that would be the 9 Div1 teams and the top 3 in Div 2 whoever they may be. Seed the championship draw based on where you finish the league, ie league champions play at home up to provincial final, top two in Munster seeded to avoid each other same in rest of ireland. That will probably give 5 in Munster and 7 in the rest of ireland unless Kerry improve dramatically. After that play off to provincial final level as at present with those who do not make provincial final going to two groups of four to sort out quarter finalists. Overall not a lot will change but that is because the strongest eight teams in the country are those that put the most work in.  It does however mean that the championship is not a closed shop and any team that has a good year in Division 2 such as wicklow this year gets some reward for their effort.

Spiritof98

Some of the ideas are good so far so I might as well add a system I think might work.

1. Scrap all pre-season competitions, provincials and National league,

2. Creat 2 divisions both including 16 teams.

Division 1 - Kilkenny, Cork, Offaly,Tipp, Clare, Waterford, Wexford, Antrim, Galway, Dublin, Limerick, Laois, Down, Westmeath, Wicklow, Derry.

Division 2 -Meath, Carlow, Kildare, Kerry, Armagh, Mayo, Sligo, Donegal, Monaghan, Louth, Roscommon, Fermanagh Longford, Tyrone, Leitrim, Cavan.

3. Rules:

Each team plays each other once.

The top 8 of the 1st Division play off 1/4 finals for the McCarthy Cup 1-4 being drawn against 5-8 openly.

The bottom 8 then play of semi finals for the Christy Ring cup. 9-12 being drawn against 13-16 openly.

For the 2 division the pattern is repeated with the Nicky Rackhard Cup for the top eight and a new cup for the bottom 8 ie DJ Cup.



I feel this system has something to offer and i feel it has a structure to it with every county competing in the same style competition. I have left London out but they could be included but I feel at the present time it is pointless having a competing NY team. The amount of meaningles game will be reduced because the league series position has a standing on the draw and could throw up some exciting last day senarios.

Feel free to voice an opionion or maybe I've missed something. I know the munster C'ship is important to people but we have to move forward and I feel this style can bring Hurling forward, yes there might be teething problems but I feel the most important part for the future is structure and this option brings this.
I'll go back if Marsdens back