DUBLIN vs KILKENNY

Started by Canalman, February 18, 2007, 06:11:58 PM

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tayto

They both played well, but McCaffery hit a sweet sideline and a couple of long range points. 

bottlethrower7

A few home truths.

Firstly, sunday's result was an excellent one for Dublin. Their training camp will be a happy place this week and its probably a long time since it was last so. Dublin have a very unique set of players in their ranks. For a team that has achieved so little they seem to get an awful lot of media attention, most of which is patronising in the extreme (hurling needs  a good Dublin, etc). This is part and parcel of being Dublin and is similar, though on a smaller scale, to the imbalance of attention given to the footballers.

The older players within the Dublin ranks are an amazingly loyal bunch. Despite continuous setbacks, not only from poor results, but from obstacles put before them by their own county board and, in particular, their footballing counterparts, they continue to give their time and effort to the cause. These players have little hope of ever winning even a Leinster medal, let alone an all-Ireland, yet they are still there doing their bit. It is for this reason that hurling people in Dublin were forgiving to Kevin Flynn and Liam Ryan when they did what they did a couple of summers ago. Things must have been really bad under the then manager for them to have opted out of the panel the way they did.

The point I want to get at is that Dublin hurlers need to be left to get on with things. In today's Irish Times Pat Daly is pontificating about sunday's result as if he has something to do with it, and as if all hurling's problems have been solved. I particularly like the bit where he says he was happy with the opening day of the league - 2 competive games out of 6 and one of these unexpected - yeah, great opening week Pat.

Dublin deserve to enjoy what they achieved on sunday, but they don't need the media, and suits like Pat Daly playing things up more than they should. On sunday week they face Antrim and there is every chance they will be brought back to earth with bang. The media attention currently being given to Dublin hurlers puts undue pressure on them, and that can't be a good thing. I'd say if given the option, Tommy Naughton and co would be happier with maximum points from the Antrim game than they would with the point from the Kilkenny game.

One major difference between Dublin and other counties is that young players are thrust into the setup and are expected to assume huge responsibility from the off. In Kilkenny or Cork a youngster will be brought into the team, given time to gain experience, will have more experienced lads to look up to, and will be allowed mature into the player they will eventually become. With Dublin, John McCaffrey and Tom Brady, at the tender age of 20, are now one the mainstays of the Dublin side, and have been since their introduction straight from minor. This is why the media need to lay off. They need to allow the players space.

Dublin have a good, united panel of players. They have a competitive defence, a solid midfield, but are sorely lacking up front. Looking at Dublin teams over the past 10 years though, this has nearly always been the case. Dublin have always had excellent backs. In almost every championship game they played in the 90s they were competitive all over the field, but could never make the good work tell on the scoreboard. The Leinster semi against Wexford (can't think of the year - the one played in Thurles in the rain when Croker was closed) being most prominent in my mind.

Sunday's result was good because of who it was against. To be fair though, Kilkenny were very poor. They were a complacent side, and this complacency was compounded by their opening 7-8 minutes, where they were given the run of the field. From then on they were poor and it took Dublin until about 10 minutes into the second half to realise this, and realise they could actually get something from the game. Their excellent final 25 minutes was largely due to numbers 1-9, maybe with the exception of Derek O'Reilly who was given a fairly torrid time by Eddie Brennan, though who played well once Brennan was moved. The failure of the forwards to put any meaningful moves together, apart from on a couple of occasions, is worrying from a Dublin point of view. The introduction of Kevin O'Reilly was a welcome one, and he certainly looks like a player who has a bright future, if he can add a physical element to his general game. Padraig O'Driscoll showed well a couple of times, but Dublin need to try and adopt a gameplan that will feature him a little more. He was starved of possession, but did well with the little ball he did manage to get. It is surprising that Joey Maher's name didn't appear at all. One would have expected him to have been featuring at this stage.

It is too soon to say whether Dublin are improved hurlingwise, from last year. It is unlikely they are, given they played division 2 last year. Resolve counts for a lot though, and if they can match the resolve shown on sunday, a good league run is not beyond them. It is time for Dublin to stop fearing the likes of Wexford and Offaly. These are the low-hanging fruit they should be looking to pick off. Dublin are primed to become the second team in Leinster, and though they have a lot of work to do to achieve that, it is something that is within their grasp. The standard out there isn't great at the moment. A handful of teams will contest the major honours this year. Dublin should have aspirations, in the short term, to become the best of the rest. One step at a time and all that.

Now, I wonder if theres enough in this post to feed a Tom Humphries column.......looking forward to LockerRoom next week big Tom!!

turk


lynchbhoy

its obv that dublin Hurling is on the up
they were unlucky to be beaten by Kilkenny in the u21 last year and the minors have been decent this past few years.
Good result.
They will continue to improve as well.

Now we have to get the rest of the country doing the same in hurling, not just Dublin.
..........

Fuzzman

Sorry Lads to steal yer thread but do any of ye know anything about Broadband with NTL?
Just moved to Dub and we have NTL TV and was thinking of also getting NTL phone and B-Band.

Dont worry I'll delete this post after a while but if you can, can you post a reply on the non GAA dicussion thread.

Cheers

bottlethrower7

#20
Quote from: lynchbhoy on February 20, 2007, 12:47:34 PM
its obv that dublin Hurling is on the up

no, its not. The point of my last point was that people are too readily willing to jump in whenever theres some glimmer of hope and say that all the great work in Dublin is finally paying off. Dublin have made great strides at underage level for quite a while now (since 2001 really). There was no evidence of that coming through to the senior ranks, where it most matters. The best players off a lot of those teams went off playing football. We had a players strike during that time, and a chairman willing to do what he could to ensure no progress was made by the senior team as well as some managerial madness.

Standardwise, Dublin are no different than they've ever been. Arguably they may even be worse than, say 3 years back when Keaney and Dotsie were still playing. One thing they have now though (fingers crossed, but question marks would still hang over 1 or 2) is a panel of lads who are there for the long haul. Ability was never the real issue with Dublin. It was gaining any form of momentum with the team. Once they'd do something good, something would come along to undo that - such as those things mentioned already. Dublin have enjoyed wins over Kilkenny and Waterford (a couple of times) in the recent enough past. They weren't capitalised upon, partly (in my opinion) because people made a big hullaballoo about them, putting undue pressure on Dublin to go out and do the same again.

Dublin need to be given space to develop. The underage work has not come to fruition yet, though it is looking like it could do soon (with a large portion of the Leinster winning minor team on the senior panel at the moment). What they don't need is the prevalent patronising attitude that they're great, when clearly they are not.

Oh, and UCD need to be kept out of the senior hurling championship at all cost. One further advantage Dublin have this year is they have panelists who have county medals from the year before, a luxury not enjoyed in the couple of years previously.

A quote from Liam Griffin springs to mind. He said that the worst thing that ever happened Wexford hurling was that they won the all-Ireland in 1996 (or something to that effect), as it masked over the problems in Wexford hurling at the time. Similarly, over-reaction to Dublin getting a draw can mask a lot of the problems with Dublin hurling, mostly caused by their own county board.

INDIANA

Quote from: bottlethrower7 on February 20, 2007, 01:14:39 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on February 20, 2007, 12:47:34 PM
its obv that dublin Hurling is on the up

"Standardwise, Dublin are no different than they've ever been. Arguably they may even be worse than, say 3 years back when Keaney and Dotsie were still playing. One thing they have now though (fingers crossed, but question marks would still hang over 1 or 2) is a panel of lads who are there for the long haul. Ability was never the real issue with Dublin. It was gaining any form of momentum with the team. Once they'd do something good, something would come along to undo that - such as those things mentioned already. Dublin have enjoyed wins over Kilkenny and Waterford (a couple of times) in the recent enough past. They weren't capitalised upon, partly (in my opinion) because people made a big hullaballoo about them, putting undue pressure on Dublin to go out and do the same again. "

Can't agree - with respect to keaney and dotsie- they never won anything playing for the county side - the likes of brady-mc caffrey- o reilly have been beating kilkenny at underage level- they don't have the same hang-ups- they don't play with fear. We never gained any momentum because we never had players who believed bar maybe keaney who's still sorely missed. The reality is deep down dublin hurlers never thought they were as good as the rest - the guys coming through now do- that's the difference and they have the techincal level of skill to back it up.
With a fancied minor team and u21 team this year- things are going ok - with repsect bottlethrower- the best 3 hurlers on that minor team 2 years ago were mc caffrey-brady and o reilly and we've brought them all through. If you examine the losses to the football team -(in my view only dotsy- keaney and connolly) are what i would regard as major losses to hurling - i never bought into the notion about the rest. It will take more time and we need to find a few more forwards but if we can get 2 more forwards like o reilly -we can talk about beating wexford and offaly.



lynchbhoy

as a whole I think hurling in dublin is def improving.
Maybe not as fast as you would like
but the gradual raising of standards has obv caught you unaware.

a couple of years ago , ALL dublin teams would be getting stuffed by kilkenny sides.
These days even if beaten, its never the same thumping as before.

I cannot see how you feel that it isnt improving.

It is going to take a long time for the rewards to be obv seen, until then accept and be patient.
..........

bottlethrower7

lynchboy, I see it on the ground. The club scene over the past few years was atrocious, mostly because teams weren't bothered with UCD being present. Last year was slightly better, but the county side was mullocking away with the likes of Wicklow in division 2. The good work at grass roots level is nothing new. Hence I don't see an improvement.

Indiana - thats the glass half full version. I'm more of a pessimist. Dublin have had great minor teams since 2001. Before that they rarely set the world alight, but there was good players coming through.

The main reason I'd be hopeful for Dublin is because the standard isn't too hot out there at the minute (barring the 2 or 3 at the 'top table'). Dublin won't need to be that good to rise through the pecking order. Something has always happened to check their progress. Tom Brady playing football on saturday is a major worry and one hopes he'll snap out of that soon enough. It'd be hard to argue that Ger O'Meara's stint at the big ball game, when he saw fit to ditch his hurl, hasn't affected his form. He was an excellent player before that and still hasn't regained his form. For me the jury is still out on O'Reilly (Kevin). I always thought of him as a free-taker and not much else. I've seen little to convince me otherwise. He did flourish from play in the u21 semi against Offaly last year, but thats because he was unmarked for much of the game (he drifted to the opposite wing and wasn't followed). Dave Henry is also a huge loss from the hurlers - granted he wasn't setting the world alight when he was there, but I've seen him hurl for Raheny since and he would be an excellent addition. Dotsie and Keaney are a massive loss. Moreso than Connolly as they had been part of the team before they opted out. And I presume you never saw Shane Ryan hurl if you wouldn't hold him up in that company. For me he is the best hurler in the county over the past 10 years.

I agree that it will take more time. But the bigger point is that people in Dublin should keep their feet on the ground after a result like sunday's. Its happened before where people have pounced, saying how great such and such a performance was, only for them to go and fall flat the next time out.

It is a good start though. Dublin had very creditiable displays against Clare and Offaly last year in the qualifier series. Ironically it was the defense that didn't perform against Clare, while the forwards played very well.

On the other hand, let us not forget that it is less than a year since that pretty dire defeat by Westmeath in the swamps of PortLaoise.

Its good that theres a good minor and under-21 team but Dublin have shown themselves incapable of bringing players through . How many are still there from the 2001 minor team? Those guys should be in their prime now and should be driving the county side - where are they now though? Having a good minor and under-21 team is all well and good, but its nothing new for Dublin. What is needed, and is needed badly, is that 'in-between' - whatever it takes to get those players from those grades and enable them to flourish into good senior players. Lets face it, minor under-21 is boys stuff compared to the cauldron of senior hurling. Being good underage doesn't guarentee being a good senior.

lynchbhoy

cant fault what you are saying

just will add that in all areas of sport, business and life progress and improvement starts as a trickle then turns into a cascade

the few gems will turn into a gold rush if the same effort towards hurling is maintained - and success will breed success.
Winning minor &u21 teams will want to continue on until eventually a decent senior team evolves.Then the fun starts.

I have just seen the efforts of my own club and it is some difference to what was there 5 or even ten years ago in dublin clubs
..........

tayto

Quote from: bottlethrower7 on February 20, 2007, 09:37:46 AM
A few home truths.

Firstly, sunday's result was an excellent one for Dublin. Their training camp will be a happy place this week and its probably a long time since it was last so. Dublin have a very unique set of players in their ranks. For a team that has achieved so little they seem to get an awful lot of media attention, most of which is patronising in the extreme (hurling needs  a good Dublin, etc). This is part and parcel of being Dublin and is similar, though on a smaller scale, to the imbalance of attention given to the footballers.

The older players within the Dublin ranks are an amazingly loyal bunch. Despite continuous setbacks, not only from poor results, but from obstacles put before them by their own county board and, in particular, their footballing counterparts, they continue to give their time and effort to the cause. These players have little hope of ever winning even a Leinster medal, let alone an all-Ireland, yet they are still there doing their bit. It is for this reason that hurling people in Dublin were forgiving to Kevin Flynn and Liam Ryan when they did what they did a couple of summers ago. Things must have been really bad under the then manager for them to have opted out of the panel the way they did.

The point I want to get at is that Dublin hurlers need to be left to get on with things. In today's Irish Times Pat Daly is pontificating about sunday's result as if he has something to do with it, and as if all hurling's problems have been solved. I particularly like the bit where he says he was happy with the opening day of the league - 2 competive games out of 6 and one of these unexpected - yeah, great opening week Pat.

Dublin deserve to enjoy what they achieved on sunday, but they don't need the media, and suits like Pat Daly playing things up more than they should. On sunday week they face Antrim and there is every chance they will be brought back to earth with bang. The media attention currently being given to Dublin hurlers puts undue pressure on them, and that can't be a good thing. I'd say if given the option, Tommy Naughton and co would be happier with maximum points from the Antrim game than they would with the point from the Kilkenny game.

One major difference between Dublin and other counties is that young players are thrust into the setup and are expected to assume huge responsibility from the off. In Kilkenny or Cork a youngster will be brought into the team, given time to gain experience, will have more experienced lads to look up to, and will be allowed mature into the player they will eventually become. With Dublin, John McCaffrey and Tom Brady, at the tender age of 20, are now one the mainstays of the Dublin side, and have been since their introduction straight from minor. This is why the media need to lay off. They need to allow the players space.

Dublin have a good, united panel of players. They have a competitive defence, a solid midfield, but are sorely lacking up front. Looking at Dublin teams over the past 10 years though, this has nearly always been the case. Dublin have always had excellent backs. In almost every championship game they played in the 90s they were competitive all over the field, but could never make the good work tell on the scoreboard. The Leinster semi against Wexford (can't think of the year - the one played in Thurles in the rain when Croker was closed) being most prominent in my mind.

Sunday's result was good because of who it was against. To be fair though, Kilkenny were very poor. They were a complacent side, and this complacency was compounded by their opening 7-8 minutes, where they were given the run of the field. From then on they were poor and it took Dublin until about 10 minutes into the second half to realise this, and realise they could actually get something from the game. Their excellent final 25 minutes was largely due to numbers 1-9, maybe with the exception of Derek O'Reilly who was given a fairly torrid time by Eddie Brennan, though who played well once Brennan was moved. The failure of the forwards to put any meaningful moves together, apart from on a couple of occasions, is worrying from a Dublin point of view. The introduction of Kevin O'Reilly was a welcome one, and he certainly looks like a player who has a bright future, if he can add a physical element to his general game. Padraig O'Driscoll showed well a couple of times, but Dublin need to try and adopt a gameplan that will feature him a little more. He was starved of possession, but did well with the little ball he did manage to get. It is surprising that Joey Maher's name didn't appear at all. One would have expected him to have been featuring at this stage.

It is too soon to say whether Dublin are improved hurlingwise, from last year. It is unlikely they are, given they played division 2 last year. Resolve counts for a lot though, and if they can match the resolve shown on sunday, a good league run is not beyond them. It is time for Dublin to stop fearing the likes of Wexford and Offaly. These are the low-hanging fruit they should be looking to pick off. Dublin are primed to become the second team in Leinster, and though they have a lot of work to do to achieve that, it is something that is within their grasp. The standard out there isn't great at the moment. A handful of teams will contest the major honours this year. Dublin should have aspirations, in the short term, to become the best of the rest. One step at a time and all that.

Now, I wonder if theres enough in this post to feed a Tom Humphries column.......looking forward to LockerRoom next week big Tom!!


Excellent post bottlethrower. One of the best I've read on this site. I'm back to earth now after suday, the excitment is that we might finally be on the first of those steps towards being a better team, I don't think anyone is under the illusion that we're about to win Leinster or anything or the sort, just from the dark days of Flynner and Ryan walking out under Kelleher and even with the recent loss of Connolly, it's great to get a positive result like this to hopefully build on in Antrim in a couple of weeks. Of course we could all have the aspirations dashed by Antrim, who'll be out to save their division one stauts at home, it'll be one hell of a game.

Agree about the forwards, young O'Reilly looks a prospect, but again is very very young, i can see why tommy is trying to ease these guys in. A coupleof good forwards on last years Colleges all ireland winning team but it'll be a couple of years till they come through.

tayto

sorry had to leggit, so the end of that is a bit rushed....

INDIANA

"The main reason I'd be hopeful for Dublin is because the standard isn't too hot out there at the minute (barring the 2 or 3 at the 'top table'). Dublin won't need to be that good to rise through the pecking order. Something has always happened to check their progress. Tom Brady playing football on saturday is a major worry and one hopes he'll snap out of that soon enough. It'd be hard to argue that Ger O'Meara's stint at the big ball game, when he saw fit to ditch his hurl, hasn't affected his form. He was an excellent player before that and still hasn't regained his form. For me the jury is still out on O'Reilly (Kevin). I always thought of him as a free-taker and not much else. I've seen little to convince me otherwise. He did flourish from play in the u21 semi against Offaly last year, but thats because he was unmarked for much of the game (he drifted to the opposite wing and wasn't followed). Dave Henry is also a huge loss from the hurlers - granted he wasn't setting the world alight when he was there, but I've seen him hurl for Raheny since and he would be an excellent addition. Dotsie and Keaney are a massive loss. Moreso than Connolly as they had been part of the team before they opted out. And I presume you never saw Shane Ryan hurl if you wouldn't hold him up in that company. For me he is the best hurler in the county over the past 10 years.

I agree that it will take more time. But the bigger point is that people in Dublin should keep their feet on the ground after a result like sunday's. Its happened before where people have pounced, saying how great such and such a performance was, only for them to go and fall flat the next time out.

It is a good start though. Dublin had very creditiable displays against Clare and Offaly last year in the qualifier series. Ironically it was the defense that didn't perform against Clare, while the forwards played very well.

On the other hand, let us not forget that it is less than a year since that pretty dire defeat by Westmeath in the swamps of PortLaoise.

Its good that theres a good minor and under-21 team but Dublin have shown themselves incapable of bringing players through . How many are still there from the 2001 minor team? Those guys should be in their prime now and should be driving the county side - where are they now though? Having a good minor and under-21 team is all well and good, but its nothing new for Dublin. What is needed, and is needed badly, is that 'in-between' - whatever it takes to get those players from those grades and enable them to flourish into good senior players. Lets face it, minor under-21 is boys stuff compared to the cauldron of senior hurling. Being good underage doesn't guarentee being a good senior."

Well i don't agree with any of that- and i've been watching hurling in dublin for 25 years and i did see shane ryan playing- for me he was not in a dublin hurling jersey long enough to make an assessment- massive potential but that's all it became -potential. To suggest he was better than keaney is a laughable notion. Kenaey as far as i'm concerned was the best hurler in a dublin jersey since Des Foley bar none. If we we still had him we'd make the last 8 of the all-ireland series this year that's how good he was.
As regards o reilly maybe you didn't see the over the shoulder point on sunday from 45 yards with 2 kilkenny men up his arse.- or the penalty loaded with top spin (bearing in mind he's  only 20 but sure let's write him off anyway) in the dying minutes. Sure we''ll do what you say and play no14 o driscoll who by your reckoning made an impact. If he is playing ahead of the likes of O Reilly we can pack it up. I don't believe J Kelly is inter county but he was of more use than O Driscoll last weekend. I disagree about Henry -saw him playing the likes of vincents at intermediate level 3-4 times- made no impact - he's actually one of the few who is a much better footballer in my opinion.
The 2001 minor team didn't win anything- had some good players but ulltimately won nothing -there is a world of difference between the players who win at underage level and the ones who don't. I still maintain and i firmly believe it the guys coming through now have a different skill level to the likes of the 2001 team and a different belief bar keaney. Doesn't mean we're going to win leinster or the national league but if we can find 2 more forwards we may move ahead of wexford and offaly very soon. That at least would be a start. If we don't find a few forwards however we will probably remain behind them-even though i think wexford more than offaly are there for the taking.

Gnevin

I agree Thrower one swallow doesn't make a summer but if the lads managed to get 4/5 points out of this league campain it would be definite progress
Anyway, long story short... is a phrase whose origins are complicated and rambling.

Canalman

Have to disagree somewhat with your comments on Conal Keaney. A class underage hurler who imo hasnt played enough senior county hurling to be classified as great.
He had a great U21 Leinster final against Wexford in 2002, but he had a shocker the following year in Carlow against Kilkenny when we had Kilkenny against the ropes.He even fluffed the pick up on a 21 yard free in that game.

For what its worth I think that Ronan Fallon is our best hurler, while I have always admired Smiley for his stickwork and  striking.

I think that we need another 5 years of continuous good underage teams before we will make a serious go at the championship.

A Tony Forrestal win would be nice.