Westminster Election 12th December 2019

[trailer]

Wasn't sure were to put this. Eamonn is never far away...

https://eamonnmallie.com/2019/12/the-unacceptable-faces-of-the-dup-and-sinn-fein-by-eamonn-mallie/

[TheOptimist]

I think integrated housing needs added to that list and we can see how well that's going in certain areas of Belfast.

No point integrating education and the kids go back to their ghetto's at the end of the day!

I genuinely think they should go in some night and tear down the "peace walls" in Belfast. The only thing they are good for is division.

[johnnycool]

I think integrated housing needs added to that list and we can see how well that's going in certain areas of Belfast.

No point integrating education and the kids go back to their ghetto's at the end of the day!

I genuinely think they should go in some night and tear down the "peace walls" in Belfast. The only thing they are good for is division.

Do you live beside one?

[Fear Bun Na Sceilpe]

CCMS for me all day.

And I think people vote with their feet certainly here in Derry in that respect. Great schools, nothing to be learnt from integrated schools in Derry at the minute anyhow. Oakgrove poor school. Sorry for being blunt but there would be massive resistance to integrated schools here, and even though religion is in decline, parents still want that ethos certainly within the school system.

Im from Derry and I dont think that is entirely accurate. My kids go to an Irish school and majority of parents I speak to either don't want or dont care if religion is part of their education. Sure mass attendances would tell you the vast majority are disengaged when it comes to religion.

My point is really that there are very few primary or secondary schools which offer the same standard of education as CCMS. The Irish language sector in Derry is different and is a bit of a mess. My children also attend. The 2 non CCMS Irish schools are not integrated in the true sense of the word and I know of only 1 child from mixed background in the 3 schools. The only reason they were set up as integrated schools  was to give control to SF. They talk about an irish language act(most cant speak a word) yet we have 3 schools in huts(one since 1983), as SF facilitated a petty kingdom building exercise. Id love to see the uproar if we told the parents at Gaelscoil Éadoin Mhóir or Gaelscoil na Daróige that the schools would not facilitate first communion and confirmation preparation, in fact I think GEM tried this a few years back and lets say it was like a lead balloon being dropped

[tbrick18]

A border poll is far down the list of things that need to happen between now an Irish reunification. Higher on the list is the desegregation of society in the north along religious lines, but I don't see a whole lot of progress being made on that front. SF have had the education portfolio for years and were able to scrap the grammar school system over the objections of recalcitrant people who wanted to retain selection, but don't seem to have the same eagerness for scrapping the unacceptable practice of keeping school kids segregated by religion until they go to the tech or go to Uni.

In fact SF's business model seems to be "complain about how unfairly treated we are by the evil Brits and that should keep the votes coming in." They'll probably spend the next decade banging on about why we need a border poll now and how unreasonable the Brits are for not providing one.

Ahh the magic bullet of integrated education.
Will these schools teach Irish history, Gaelige, do gaelic games?

Yes

No.
Integrated education is a fantastic idea, however, it is not universally implemented in the same way.
In my experience of it, there was no irish history, Irish language or gaelic games. However, there were Ulster Scotts classes, Badminton, soccer and table tennis.
In a school primarily staffed by Catholic Staff, with Protestant management. A primarily catholic intake at that time - and kids not getting places as there were too many catholics. Quite a few Protestant families complaining about the lack of Gaelic/Irish as they wanted there kids to experience something they felt they couldn't get elsewhere and also quite a few protestant families complaining when a teacher wore a gaelic top to a sponsored walk fund raiser.
The quality of education was also not what either the state or catholic schools (primary schools) as hardly anyone sat or had the ability to sit the transfer test.
No-one was happy with the level of integration, or lack thereof, in the integrated school I have experience of.

From what I have seen of it, Integrated education will only work if the management, staff and families who send their kids to these schools live and breath and integrated ethos. Staff, IMO, integrated schools are only there as they couldn't get a job in a school from their respective tradition. In many cases, kids in the schools are the same, though, there is a sizeable number of mixed marriages with kids in integrated schools.

I know I've gone on a bit of a rant there on Integrated Education, but it galls me to hear so much spouted about the virtues of Integrated Education when the realities don't really live up to the expectations.

Can't believe you could get so irked about a  spot of badmington and table tennis!  Surely the main virtue of integrated is that young people are being educated together from an early age, building life long friendships and realising that the folk from the other "community" don't have two heads.

The point that I was trying to make with the sport, was that it seemed to be any sport but Gaelic games.
I had once asked the question about why they hadn't entered the Cumann na mBunscol, to be told by the principal they didn't know anything about it. So I contacted the offices of Comann na mBunscol for info, only to be told the school was registered by never attended. On further investigation, they had actually go funding for Gaelic Games coaching, but used it for "other" activities.

My two go to integrated and my experience to date has not been this. In fact their U6 coach at the club teaches at the school and runs the school GAA activities.

The biggest surprise I had is that football tops such as Republic or Northern Ireland are actually encouraged. The ethos is about accepting differences and not hiding or being ashamed of them. They are learning more about Diversity than they would at a Catholic school.

That's the way it should be, but it also demonstrates that staff are key to it being successful.
When we were first considering Primary schools I was actually against sending mine to the integrated, but went to an open night were the Principle at the time gave a speech. He said that you expect to be asked for permission to allow your child to learn about Irish, the Queen, the 12th, St. Patrick or Gaelic...or if you have issues with things like Gaelic tops or poppies, then you should not send your child to the school. He said everyone would learn about everything....and I was sold on it.
However, as tends to happen, staff and management change and so did the approach to integration. Perhaps its the exception and not the norm.

I think we need in integrated education thread.

[tbrick18]

CCMS for me all day.

And I think people vote with their feet certainly here in Derry in that respect. Great schools, nothing to be learnt from integrated schools in Derry at the minute anyhow. Oakgrove poor school. Sorry for being blunt but there would be massive resistance to integrated schools here, and even though religion is in decline, parents still want that ethos certainly within the school system.

I think you've hit the nail on the head here. The quality of education in a CCMS school is way beyond what I have experienced in an integrated school.
And indeed, in quite a few places in our area way beyond what is happening in the state schools (at least based on grammar school numbers in the area).
I think these days, parents are more likely to choose a school on the quality of education.

[Eamonnca1]

f**k it. Lets just keep on going the way we always have then ram unification down everyones throats in a take it or leave it 50+1 vote. It'll be grand.

In other words, lets ram it down people's throat by sticking to the very guidelines set out in the GFA that those same people voted overwhelmingly in favour of?

So what % do you suggest it should be for a vote in favour of reunification to be valid? Or to put that another way, exactly how much more valuable is a unionist's vote be over a nationalist's vote, in your eyes?

It's not a question of being "valid." It's a question of achieving unity when there's a good consensus for it and when it's not such a bitterly divisive issue. It's about reunification happening peacefully and with less likelihood of a violent loyalist backlash or even civil war. But you try explaining that to the "integrated education will never happen so we should just keep them separate" crowd.

So if there was a 55-45 majority you think the status quo should be kept? Let's say it stays at that level for 20 years, do we continue to ignore the democratic change? As someone else alluded to earlier. It's a small % that will cause the backlash, and that will happen whether it's 80% 20%. It will never be accepted by them. I complete agree that we should work towards bringing as high a % as possible along with the process but I don't believe that democracy should be held back by a violent minority.

My preferred solution would be to hold off on holding a referendum until we're sure we can get a decent percentage, say 60%, in favour. If we get to that point then the size of the loyalist backlash would be akin to the scale of the dissident republican threat at the minute, i.e. small enough that it can be contained. But holding a border poll right now when the result is on a knife-edge is just ridiculous.

[Eamonnca1]

Lads you are talking like some Monday we'll wake up to green post boxes. That won't happen. It'll be a phased transition which will start when we economically become one island in the next year or so. Surely then a phased federated all Ireland with two states is the sensible way to go to begin with. During this time our unionist neighbors will see the benefits.

I agree. When Hong Kong and Macau were handed back to China by Britain and Portugal they retained the status of Special Administrative Regions. It made for a smooth transition. There's a lesson there.

[Eamonnca1]

My response to the old "integrated education is not a panacea" trope is as follows:

Segregated education is not a panacea either.

If integrated schools are providing lower quality education then that's an argument for giving them more funding so they can attract better management and better teachers. The work they do is too important to be relegated to the bottom of the priority list. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't CCMS schools funded partly by the state? If that's the case then it represents a large transfer of public money to a private institution to further its private goals of brainwashing children into a particular belief system, as well as deepening divisions. Utter madness.

You can't take down the peace walls until kids go to school together.

Another old cop-out I used to hear all the time was that CCMS schools "teach children to respect people of different faiths." What a load of cobblers. The ones lobbing petrol bombs in Kilwilkee over the years all went to CCMS schools. Respect for people is not something you learn in lessons from a book. You learn it between lessons. In the corridors. In the playground. Waiting for the school bus. On the school bus. In the cafeteria. You build relationships and grow up together with people from diverse backgrounds, that's where you learn the most, not by listening to some nun droning on for half an hour about how we should be nice to them "up to no good" protestants.

[JoG2]

I think integrated housing needs added to that list and we can see how well that's going in certain areas of Belfast.

No point integrating education and the kids go back to their ghetto's at the end of the day!

Thats a fair point. But which do you think is easier to do? For example loads of new houses being built in the affluent Culmore rd area of Derry. How many protestant families would be encouraged to move there when their isn't a school for their kids to go to? Its a bit of chicken and egg.

Culmore PS?

[michaelg]

A border poll is far down the list of things that need to happen between now an Irish reunification. Higher on the list is the desegregation of society in the north along religious lines, but I don't see a whole lot of progress being made on that front. SF have had the education portfolio for years and were able to scrap the grammar school system over the objections of recalcitrant people who wanted to retain selection, but don't seem to have the same eagerness for scrapping the unacceptable practice of keeping school kids segregated by religion until they go to the tech or go to Uni.

In fact SF's business model seems to be "complain about how unfairly treated we are by the evil Brits and that should keep the votes coming in." They'll probably spend the next decade banging on about why we need a border poll now and how unreasonable the Brits are for not providing one.

Ahh the magic bullet of integrated education.
Will these schools teach Irish history, Gaelige, do gaelic games?

Yes

No.
Integrated education is a fantastic idea, however, it is not universally implemented in the same way.
In my experience of it, there was no irish history, Irish language or gaelic games. However, there were Ulster Scotts classes, Badminton, soccer and table tennis.
In a school primarily staffed by Catholic Staff, with Protestant management. A primarily catholic intake at that time - and kids not getting places as there were too many catholics. Quite a few Protestant families complaining about the lack of Gaelic/Irish as they wanted there kids to experience something they felt they couldn't get elsewhere and also quite a few protestant families complaining when a teacher wore a gaelic top to a sponsored walk fund raiser.
The quality of education was also not what either the state or catholic schools (primary schools) as hardly anyone sat or had the ability to sit the transfer test.
No-one was happy with the level of integration, or lack thereof, in the integrated school I have experience of.

From what I have seen of it, Integrated education will only work if the management, staff and families who send their kids to these schools live and breath and integrated ethos. Staff, IMO, integrated schools are only there as they couldn't get a job in a school from their respective tradition. In many cases, kids in the schools are the same, though, there is a sizeable number of mixed marriages with kids in integrated schools.

I know I've gone on a bit of a rant there on Integrated Education, but it galls me to hear so much spouted about the virtues of Integrated Education when the realities don't really live up to the expectations.

Can't believe you could get so irked about a  spot of badmington and table tennis!  Surely the main virtue of integrated is that young people are being educated together from an early age, building life long friendships and realising that the folk from the other "community" don't have two heads.

Good point.  Clearly he has an issue with Badminton and Table Tennis.

In fact, you know what would be a good idea.  We should ignore everything else he has said and focus on his irrational hatred for these sports.

The sports young people play at school is not the be all and end all.  I was merely pointing out that sharing a classroom from an early age with people from a different background is the main benefit of integrated education. 

[6th sam]

My response to the old "integrated education is not a panacea" trope is as follows:

Segregated education is not a panacea either.

If integrated schools are providing lower quality education then that's an argument for giving them more funding so they can attract better management and better teachers. The work they do is too important to be relegated to the bottom of the priority list. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't CCMS schools funded partly by the state? If that's the case then it represents a large transfer of public money to a private institution to further its private goals of brainwashing children into a particular belief system, as well as deepening divisions. Utter madness.

You can't take down the peace walls until kids go to school together.

Another old cop-out I used to hear all the time was that CCMS schools "teach children to respect people of different faiths." What a load of cobblers. The ones lobbing petrol bombs in Kilwilkee over the years all went to CCMS schools. Respect for people is not something you learn in lessons from a book. You learn it between lessons. In the corridors. In the playground. Waiting for the school bus. On the school bus. In the cafeteria. You build relationships and grow up together with people from diverse backgrounds, that's where you learn the most, not by listening to some nun droning on for half an hour about how we should be nice to them "up to no good" protestants.

I hesitate to defend Catholic Education  for fear of insulting those who have suffered in the CCMS system (particularly related to cover-up of child abuse) . I recognise the negatives surrounding Catholic education but I have to say most of my family have been educated in CCMS schools and We never witnessed antagonism towards Protestants. And to be fair the only 'indoctrination " I witnessed was promoting charity, Christian values and positive social awareness.
Catholic's in the North were second class citizens in this state , yet in CCMS schools they were assured equal access to quality education , and Irish culture eg history, Gaelic  games, music , Irish language , which was not provided in state schools. Most CCMS schools are top notch educationally , and catholic schools in England are often over subscribed , probably as they promote positive human values including respect for others and work ethic . There are now very very few religious ( priests, brothers nuns) working in CCMS schools.
Cynics would say that Catholic education was unchallenged by the establishment for years but ever since these schools are dominating the league tables and state schools are under pressure educationally and enrolment wise, unionist politicians and others are all of a sudden making integrated education a cause celebre.
It's interesting that despite the decreasing influence of the Catholic Church , CCMS schools remain in high demand- I suspect because parents recognise the benefit of catholic education .

Having said all that I totally agree that strategically we should be moving towards a fully integrated education and housing system over the next 25 years.
Everybody should have access to the very best education system possible. Rather than denigrate Catholic education we should be exploring why it is so successful educationally and give everyone the opportunity to benefit from
The positive values and ethos which exists in these CCMS schools.
A few points of constructive criticism re "integrated" education:
1. If state schools were doing their job and providing equality then there would be no need for an integrated sector
2. Cynics would say that some state schools are moving towards integrated sector for survival as numbers drop
3. Anecdotally There is sectarian bullying within integrated schools
4. Many integrated schools do not promote gaa on an equal level, and don't place Irish culture on an equal footing with British culture or neutral culture
5. The grammar system often means that integrated schools will find it hard to compete with grammar schools educationally .
6. CCMS and Historical faith schools should be given the opportunity to contribute to a new model for education .
A potential long term solution :
A vision for education in the North ( and South ) going forward that promotes equal educational and cultural opportunity , educational And vocational excellence , true integration, positive social values. Review the current educational estate and only fund future school infrastructure development that meets the above ideals.
As well as promoting full social inclusion , it would be more economically efficient . The current education system and estate is not sustainable , and those that espouse integrated education as the panacea should recognise the weaknesses of the current state and integrated sectors as opposed to blaming everything on Catholic education

[marty34]

CCMS for me all day.

And I think people vote with their feet certainly here in Derry in that respect. Great schools, nothing to be learnt from integrated schools in Derry at the minute anyhow. Oakgrove poor school. Sorry for being blunt but there would be massive resistance to integrated schools here, and even though religion is in decline, parents still want that ethos certainly within the school system.

Im from Derry and I dont think that is entirely accurate. My kids go to an Irish school and majority of parents I speak to either don't want or dont care if religion is part of their education. Sure mass attendances would tell you the vast majority are disengaged when it comes to religion.

CC has still too much control on schools in north - priest even sits in on job interviews!!!!

Church and schools should be seperate, like the way they are going in the south. 

[Milltown Row2]

CCMS at grammar level out perform most schools, even some of the secondary schools have out performed some state grammar schools at GCSE level, but surely it's the work ethic of the principle, teachers, parents and pupils that achieve that?

I went to secondary and school left with zero education at 16 years old, as did 90% of that year (and most years tbh) group, all the kids went to CCMS primary schools then secondary. Why didn't the CCMS system not make us better students?

Simple, the work ethic was missing from all of the things I've mentioned.

Put your kids in the local school and base it on their standard, while we still have segregated housing estates you'll always have schools for that type, my kids have grown up in a mixed area, so go to the local school, they do well because they are encouraged to do well by everyone through school and home life. They aren't taught Irish ( I wasn't either at a CCMS) and played GAA briefly at the club but not bothered, again neither am I, as it's not a necessity in life or will it improve their day to day.

Looking to ram Gaelic culture down people's throats won't win hearts and minds, having it as an option and promoting to those that want to play is the way to go.

[Fear Bun Na Sceilpe]

CCMS for me all day.

And I think people vote with their feet certainly here in Derry in that respect. Great schools, nothing to be learnt from integrated schools in Derry at the minute anyhow. Oakgrove poor school. Sorry for being blunt but there would be massive resistance to integrated schools here, and even though religion is in decline, parents still want that ethos certainly within the school system.

Im from Derry and I dont think that is entirely accurate. My kids go to an Irish school and majority of parents I speak to either don't want or dont care if religion is part of their education. Sure mass attendances would tell you the vast majority are disengaged when it comes to religion.

CC has still too much control on schools in north - priest even sits in on job interviews!!!!

Church and schools should be seperate, like the way they are going in the south.

Nothing wrong with that.. The evidence is there in the performance, and I don't even go to mass. The values and education levels received are just far too good to criticise them.