MPs unite to fight law that will make abortions available in Northern Ireland

[Armagh18]

You sum up everything f=cked up about lefties. Crying on the depression thread, yet you post this vile condescending diatribe.

Usual manchurian candidate stuff from the pro aborts. Misogyny,  women haters, body autonomy, cave dwellers, world is flat, all spin words from marketing companies.

As for Sein Fein, at least they're consistent never had any regard for human life.

You make a great point in regards to the ballot box. Where does a Republican or Nationalist voter turn in the North now? Any options outside Aontu? Didn't think the political situation could get any bleaker here.

Don't agree with abortion but it would take a lot more than that to push me away from SF.

[marty34]

You sum up everything f=cked up about lefties. Crying on the depression thread, yet you post this vile condescending diatribe.

Usual manchurian candidate stuff from the pro aborts. Misogyny,  women haters, body autonomy, cave dwellers, world is flat, all spin words from marketing companies.

As for Sein Fein, at least they're consistent never had any regard for human life.

You make a great point in regards to the ballot box. Where does a Republican or Nationalist voter turn in the North now? Any options outside Aontu? Didn't think the political situation could get any bleaker here.

I think this illustrates the huge divide or difference between north and south nowadays - the south has changed dramatically over this this past 25 years and they look at the north as a backward place.

I'd never have thought the Repeal would have passed with such a high majority.   Can probably safely now say there is complete seperation between state and church in the 26.

Also when posting, can you start a new one after 5 or 6 copies instead of a full page of previous posts with your submission at bottom?

Almost 750,000 still voted No. Around one third of those who voted.. If there was a referendum in the north, you would have got at least the same percentage.

But over 66% voted for it - for me that was a huge vote and it shocked me.  It illustrated, more than anything else, how the 26 cos. has chsnged inside a few years.  Consider how powerful the CC was in the south say 25 years ago, then it's a huge sea change.

Do people in the south look at the north as a backward church driven society?  Whatever way you look at it, there is a huge difference between the north and south over these issues.

I dont think there is. I imagine if there was a referendum here on SSM and abortion it would have returned similar results.

Abortion - I don't think it - DUP are totally against it while SF and SDLP members I'd say are against it.  The churches still have serious clout in the north. Both sections are right wing conseratives.

SSM - I don't think there's the same level of debate on it and it'd be 50/50 in terms of it passing.

[marty34]

You sum up everything f=cked up about lefties. Crying on the depression thread, yet you post this vile condescending diatribe.

Usual manchurian candidate stuff from the pro aborts. Misogyny,  women haters, body autonomy, cave dwellers, world is flat, all spin words from marketing companies.

As for Sein Fein, at least they're consistent never had any regard for human life.

You make a great point in regards to the ballot box. Where does a Republican or Nationalist voter turn in the North now? Any options outside Aontu? Didn't think the political situation could get any bleaker here.

Don't agree with abortion but it would take a lot more than that to push me away from SF.

The way things are going in the north, it's the final countdown - endgame.

We're now into a tribal headcount: one or the other and every election will be like this.

[Milltown Row2]

When does sentience begin? A blade of grass is no more alive than a freshly fertilized egg. A single-cell organism is not a sentient life. You can't have sentience without a functioning brain and central nervous system. You need more than one cell to form a brain.

But of course this is all academic. The principle of bodily autonomy still stands regardless of when you think life begins. The only person with any right to decide what to do with a pregnancy is the mother concerned. All other parties need to mind their own business. They need to adopt Omajoe's policy of "I'm hardly likely to be drawn in to comment on anyone's personal situation when i know sfa about it.." His own words.

Very good Eamon  not going commenting any more on that

But then if bodily autonomy trumps all doesnt that also apply to the human who is having their life snuffed out?

We've been thru the sentience argument b4 your opening a can of worms because:

you dont know where sentience begins or ends brain or no brain,
does this apply to a fully grown person who is not conscious?
a brain is formed at 5/6 weeks

Fine. Let the mother die then. Force women to give birth to stillborn babies. Deny women the right to decide what to do with their own bodies.

What's it going to be next? Reopening the Magdalene laundries?

Get into the 21st century with the rest of us.

As I have said before this debate for me is about on demand abortion, not sure of the particulars of the NI prior to being forced upon us by the Brits but I believe that there was provision for medical emergencies that you mentioned, so really your point is just an appeal to extremism.

As would most, why would you think this opens up the door to rampant abortion? Where is the evidence of this? They've been driven to go to England to have back street abortions, no one in their right mind will go through that just for the craic.

Being told you have a terminal ill child growing in your body or a child with a hole in the skull or other life limiting conditions that the child would barely get by without the help of life support services is that ok?

If your wife was raped, fell pregnant and you decided to keep the child, I get that, it's not the child's fault, but the decision for me would lie with the woman.

I dont think it will open the flood gates just that it will increase but it's a mute point anyway as far as most people are concerned it's just point scoring and irrelevant to people's opinion.

Your points are good ones tho MR2 and i would wrangle with them a lot but practically no piece of legislation is never cut and dry 100% of the time.
90%+ of the cases relate to abortion on demand of an unplanned but otherwise healthy pregnancy so that's what I think should be legislated for.
And that's without getting into the other side of the coin. Where pregnancies are aborted because of superficial things like club foot or cleft lip or even the wrong gender.
Also the abortion lobby puts a lot of misinformation out there... "not even a human just a clump of cells" isnt a new one yet it persists as we can see.

Look I'm the father of a a grown man who was not planned, though born into a loving relationship at the time,  I was only 19, thinking WTF!, abortion never came into our thoughts and while it was difficult and as our relationship fell down we still had our child, which was one of the best unplanned things that Ive ever done, unborn children do deserve to be given a chance and my sister has two children from adoption that she would never had that chance, should abortion been readily available for the girl, as she was unable to look after them.

But there seems to be words like murder and killing and other such words which don't help, there are many cases, some of which I've mentin which need to be Looked at by the pro life people. Anyone uses words like on demand need to get a grip, the thoughts that go through a persons head if faced with the prospect of bringing up a baby alone with no money and future (in their head) must be awful..

I've two daughters also one 18 and the other 16 (next week) and i'm in a position where if something like an unplanned pregnacy happened the child would brought up in a loving  supportive family. That's not always available

In 2018 in England and wales there were 200,608 abortions. It does look a bit like "on demand". There is no way that there were 200,608 rapes, fatal foetal, medical emergencies, incest. If there was well we need to be looking more deeply at how our society in operating.

Bringing up a child with no money is not a precursor to having no future, it should never be accepted as an excuse for an abortion. We live in a society where people's coping mechanisms having plummeted, it is no surprise that a lack of coping mechanisms is linked to the increase in suicide here.

For me the bill which has been introduced is far too loose.

I'm with you in regards there has to be a process you go through that will ensure its not just on a whim, as I know a couple of girls who did have an abortion many years ago in England who to this day, have regretted it but at the time they felt that it was the only way! Age or outside pressure or even in one case, family pressure they feel that they have lost a child, thats something they deal with daily..

If the support services are available at these centres where a decision isnt carried out without a proper consultation then its the best way forward in this bill

[Armagh18]

You sum up everything f=cked up about lefties. Crying on the depression thread, yet you post this vile condescending diatribe.

Usual manchurian candidate stuff from the pro aborts. Misogyny,  women haters, body autonomy, cave dwellers, world is flat, all spin words from marketing companies.

As for Sein Fein, at least they're consistent never had any regard for human life.

You make a great point in regards to the ballot box. Where does a Republican or Nationalist voter turn in the North now? Any options outside Aontu? Didn't think the political situation could get any bleaker here.

I think this illustrates the huge divide or difference between north and south nowadays - the south has changed dramatically over this this past 25 years and they look at the north as a backward place.

I'd never have thought the Repeal would have passed with such a high majority.   Can probably safely now say there is complete seperation between state and church in the 26.

Also when posting, can you start a new one after 5 or 6 copies instead of a full page of previous posts with your submission at bottom?

Almost 750,000 still voted No. Around one third of those who voted.. If there was a referendum in the north, you would have got at least the same percentage.

But over 66% voted for it - for me that was a huge vote and it shocked me.  It illustrated, more than anything else, how the 26 cos. has chsnged inside a few years.  Consider how powerful the CC was in the south say 25 years ago, then it's a huge sea change.

Do people in the south look at the north as a backward church driven society?  Whatever way you look at it, there is a huge difference between the north and south over these issues.

Less than two thirds turned out. So, you might say that 1/3 of people didn't care enough to vote. I knew for sure it would pass. Had I had a vote, I don't think I'd have bothered. The true figure for/against, we don't know.

I doubt the church had much influence on the vote. People have picked and chosen bits of the churche's teachings over the years, regarding contraception, unmarried living together, sex, etc, so I doubt it influenced people's vote. It wouldn't have influenced votes in the north either. It's not as if nobody goes to mass in the south and everybody goes in the north.

Yes I agree, its about morals not religion. I don't take my lead from the church, I happen to agree with SSM but not the current abortion laws. It is a view which i have personally developed.  Even though I agree with one and not the other I still believe that both should be voted on by us here.

I'd agree with you here. SSM should be completely legal and no one elses concern, but abortion is a very tricky one. You hear heartbreaking cases of women being forced to carry on their pregnancy, there was a lady on the news the other night who had been forced to deliver as she described the decaying remains of her baby. Horrible stuff. I think abortion in cases like that where the baby won't survive is acceptable. On rape cases, again my view would be that its not the childs fault, but if the mother wants to terminate then no one should be able to force her to carry her rapists child. I'd be completely against the abortions that are more or less "oh no I don't want to have a baby" and the cases of aborting for Downs Syndrome are absolutely vile. 

Either way, there is a big debate to be had on the abortion issue and sensible, reasonable people from both sides need to come together and work out the issue and it definitely needs to be voted on here.

[trueblue1234]

Abortion - I don't think it - DUP are totally against it while SF and SDLP members I'd say are against it.  The churches still have serious clout in the north. Both sections are right wing conseratives.

SSM - I don't think there's the same level of debate on it and it'd be 50/50 in terms of it passing.

I think SSM would have passed with a decent majority in the North. Mainly because there isn't really a down side so logically people will support.
Abortion is a much more nuanced topic. And it's one where both sides get very passionate about.

[BennyCake]

You sum up everything f=cked up about lefties. Crying on the depression thread, yet you post this vile condescending diatribe.

Usual manchurian candidate stuff from the pro aborts. Misogyny,  women haters, body autonomy, cave dwellers, world is flat, all spin words from marketing companies.

As for Sein Fein, at least they're consistent never had any regard for human life.

You make a great point in regards to the ballot box. Where does a Republican or Nationalist voter turn in the North now? Any options outside Aontu? Didn't think the political situation could get any bleaker here.

Don't agree with abortion but it would take a lot more than that to push me away from SF.

I've steered clear of SF long before any of this. They will never get my vote again.

[t_mac]

You sum up everything f=cked up about lefties. Crying on the depression thread, yet you post this vile condescending diatribe.

Usual manchurian candidate stuff from the pro aborts. Misogyny,  women haters, body autonomy, cave dwellers, world is flat, all spin words from marketing companies.

As for Sein Fein, at least they're consistent never had any regard for human life.

You make a great point in regards to the ballot box. Where does a Republican or Nationalist voter turn in the North now? Any options outside Aontu? Didn't think the political situation could get any bleaker here.

Don't agree with abortion but it would take a lot more than that to push me away from SF.

What about complete ineptitude to be politicians?

[Baile Brigín 2]

You sum up everything f=cked up about lefties. Crying on the depression thread, yet you post this vile condescending diatribe.

Usual manchurian candidate stuff from the pro aborts. Misogyny,  women haters, body autonomy, cave dwellers, world is flat, all spin words from marketing companies.

As for Sein Fein, at least they're consistent never had any regard for human life.

You make a great point in regards to the ballot box. Where does a Republican or Nationalist voter turn in the North now? Any options outside Aontu? Didn't think the political situation could get any bleaker here.

I think this illustrates the huge divide or difference between north and south nowadays - the south has changed dramatically over this this past 25 years and they look at the north as a backward place.

I'd never have thought the Repeal would have passed with such a high majority.   Can probably safely now say there is complete seperation between state and church in the 26.

Also when posting, can you start a new one after 5 or 6 copies instead of a full page of previous posts with your submission at bottom?

Almost 750,000 still voted No. Around one third of those who voted.. If there was a referendum in the north, you would have got at least the same percentage.

But over 66% voted for it - for me that was a huge vote and it shocked me.  It illustrated, more than anything else, how the 26 cos. has chsnged inside a few years.  Consider how powerful the CC was in the south say 25 years ago, then it's a huge sea change.

Do people in the south look at the north as a backward church driven society?  Whatever way you look at it, there is a huge difference between the north and south over these issues.

Less than two thirds turned out. So, you might say that 1/3 of people didn't care enough to vote. I knew for sure it would pass. Had I had a vote, I don't think I'd have bothered. The true figure for/against, we don't know.

I doubt the church had much influence on the vote. People have picked and chosen bits of the churche's teachings over the years, regarding contraception, unmarried living together, sex, etc, so I doubt it influenced people's vote. It wouldn't have influenced votes in the north either. It's not as if nobody goes to mass in the south and everybody goes in the north.

The only groups and prominent individuals campaigning against repeal were Catholic. While the impact was negligible, the intent was there.

[Angelo]

At the end of the day you can break it down whatever way you want. But surely we have a right to protect those who cannot speak? When you break it down into arguments of weeks and development etc - I feel the point is being wasted completely. Children will not come into this world because of developments in our law. One life lost is surely too many? When I think of this debate, Avril Monaghan always enters my head. I wonder do the Monaghan family mourn two victims or four?

When I think of this debate, I think of young rape victims. I immediately thought of a story I read the other day about the 15 year old with learning difficulties in Armagh who was raped by two Romanian nationals. To my knowledge she didn't fall pregnant but the thought of someone in her position being forced to go through with a pregnancy is disgusting.

Is the thought of a woman deciding to terminate the life of a perfectly healthy child because she doesn't want to deal with the consequences of her actions not disgusting?

It's about accountability.

[Baile Brigín 2]

At the end of the day you can break it down whatever way you want. But surely we have a right to protect those who cannot speak? When you break it down into arguments of weeks and development etc - I feel the point is being wasted completely. Children will not come into this world because of developments in our law. One life lost is surely too many? When I think of this debate, Avril Monaghan always enters my head. I wonder do the Monaghan family mourn two victims or four?

When I think of this debate, I think of young rape victims. I immediately thought of a story I read the other day about the 15 year old with learning difficulties in Armagh who was raped by two Romanian nationals. To my knowledge she didn't fall pregnant but the thought of someone in her position being forced to go through with a pregnancy is disgusting.

Is the thought of a woman deciding to terminate the life of a perfectly healthy child because she doesn't want to deal with the consequences of her actions not disgusting?

It's about accountability.

Accountability to who?

[Angelo]

You sum up everything f=cked up about lefties. Crying on the depression thread, yet you post this vile condescending diatribe.

Usual manchurian candidate stuff from the pro aborts. Misogyny,  women haters, body autonomy, cave dwellers, world is flat, all spin words from marketing companies.

As for Sein Fein, at least they're consistent never had any regard for human life.

You make a great point in regards to the ballot box. Where does a Republican or Nationalist voter turn in the North now? Any options outside Aontu? Didn't think the political situation could get any bleaker here.

Don't agree with abortion but it would take a lot more than that to push me away from SF.

What about complete ineptitude to be politicians?

Which party on this island has adept politicians?

[Jim_Murphy_74]

Less than two thirds turned out. So, you might say that 1/3 of people didn't care enough to vote. I knew for sure it would pass. Had I had a vote, I don't think I'd have bothered. The true figure for/against, we don't know.

I would find it incongruous that anyone who sees abortion as murder would not bother to go to their local polling station and mark their X.  I would concur it suggests most absentees didn't care strongly and were ambivalent about the topic.

/Jim.

[five points]

Less than two thirds turned out. So, you might say that 1/3 of people didn't care enough to vote. I knew for sure it would pass. Had I had a vote, I don't think I'd have bothered. The true figure for/against, we don't know.

I doubt the church had much influence on the vote. People have picked and chosen bits of the churche's teachings over the years, regarding contraception, unmarried living together, sex, etc, so I doubt it influenced people's vote. It wouldn't have influenced votes in the north either. It's not as if nobody goes to mass in the south and everybody goes in the north.

Its worth noting that the Republic's voting register is in an utter mess. An awful lot of people are on it 2, 3 or 4 times as are a lot of people who are living abroad.  Until that's cleaned up, we're unlikely ever to have a large turnout for any election or referendum, fraud notwithstanding.

[Armagh18]

At the end of the day you can break it down whatever way you want. But surely we have a right to protect those who cannot speak? When you break it down into arguments of weeks and development etc - I feel the point is being wasted completely. Children will not come into this world because of developments in our law. One life lost is surely too many? When I think of this debate, Avril Monaghan always enters my head. I wonder do the Monaghan family mourn two victims or four?

When I think of this debate, I think of young rape victims. I immediately thought of a story I read the other day about the 15 year old with learning difficulties in Armagh who was raped by two Romanian nationals. To my knowledge she didn't fall pregnant but the thought of someone in her position being forced to go through with a pregnancy is disgusting.

Is the thought of a woman deciding to terminate the life of a perfectly healthy child because she doesn't want to deal with the consequences of her actions not disgusting?

It's about accountability.

Both are disgusting imo. But don't tell me you'd force that young girl to carry on with that pregnancy?