MPs unite to fight law that will make abortions available in Northern Ireland

[gallsman]

Does that exclude in the case of someone very young, the trauma of pregnancy and birth, the mental well being of the mother during and after the birth, the resentment that mother may feel towards the child which might as we have seen repeatedly on the news manifest itself in ugly forms, would you rather a child live, have a horrible few years and die in awful circumstances.  I am not a woman, I don't have sisters, but I have a mother, a wife and daughters, in a situation with a stable home and stable minds I think best endeavours would ensure any unplanned child is cared for and loved, but that is not the case in many many instances, I think each case is unique and, due to huge cuts, there little or no governmental support out there  so for me the best person to adjudge what is right for them is the mother and her wider support group, if such exists.

Absolutely not, sure aren't they only stupid sluts who should have known better?

[TwoUpTwoDown]

You sum up everything f=cked up about lefties. Crying on the depression thread, yet you post this vile condescending diatribe.

Usual manchurian candidate stuff from the pro aborts. Misogyny,  women haters, body autonomy, cave dwellers, world is flat, all spin words from marketing companies.

As for Sein Fein, at least they're consistent never had any regard for human life.

You make a great point in regards to the ballot box. Where does a Republican or Nationalist voter turn in the North now? Any options outside Aontu? Didn't think the political situation could get any bleaker here.

[marty34]

You sum up everything f=cked up about lefties. Crying on the depression thread, yet you post this vile condescending diatribe.

Usual manchurian candidate stuff from the pro aborts. Misogyny,  women haters, body autonomy, cave dwellers, world is flat, all spin words from marketing companies.

As for Sein Fein, at least they're consistent never had any regard for human life.

You make a great point in regards to the ballot box. Where does a Republican or Nationalist voter turn in the North now? Any options outside Aontu? Didn't think the political situation could get any bleaker here.

I think this illustrates the huge divide or difference between north and south nowadays - the south has changed dramatically over this this past 25 years and they look at the north as a backward place.

I'd never have thought the Repeal would have passed with such a high majority.   Can probably safely now say there is complete seperation between state and church in the 26.

Also when posting, can you start a new one after 5 or 6 copies instead of a full page of previous posts with your submission at bottom?

[Baile Brigín 2]

When does sentience begin? A blade of grass is no more alive than a freshly fertilized egg. A single-cell organism is not a sentient life. You can't have sentience without a functioning brain and central nervous system. You need more than one cell to form a brain.

But of course this is all academic. The principle of bodily autonomy still stands regardless of when you think life begins. The only person with any right to decide what to do with a pregnancy is the mother concerned. All other parties need to mind their own business. They need to adopt Omajoe's policy of "I'm hardly likely to be drawn in to comment on anyone's personal situation when i know sfa about it.." His own words.

Very good Eamon  not going commenting any more on that

But then if bodily autonomy trumps all doesnt that also apply to the human who is having their life snuffed out?

We've been thru the sentience argument b4 your opening a can of worms because:

you dont know where sentience begins or ends brain or no brain,
does this apply to a fully grown person who is not conscious?
a brain is formed at 5/6 weeks

Fine. Let the mother die then. Force women to give birth to stillborn babies. Deny women the right to decide what to do with their own bodies.

What's it going to be next? Reopening the Magdalene laundries?

Get into the 21st century with the rest of us.

As I have said before this debate for me is about on demand abortion, not sure of the particulars of the NI prior to being forced upon us by the Brits but I believe that there was provision for medical emergencies that you mentioned, so really your point is just an appeal to extremism.

As would most, why would you think this opens up the door to rampant abortion? Where is the evidence of this? They've been driven to go to England to have back street abortions, no one in their right mind will go through that just for the craic.

Being told you have a terminal ill child growing in your body or a child with a hole in the skull or other life limiting conditions that the child would barely get by without the help of life support services is that ok?

If your wife was raped, fell pregnant and you decided to keep the child, I get that, it's not the child's fault, but the decision for me would lie with the woman.

I dont think it will open the flood gates just that it will increase but it's a mute point anyway as far as most people are concerned it's just point scoring and irrelevant to people's opinion.

Your points are good ones tho MR2 and i would wrangle with them a lot but practically no piece of legislation is never cut and dry 100% of the time.
90%+ of the cases relate to abortion on demand of an unplanned but otherwise healthy pregnancy so that's what I think should be legislated for.
And that's without getting into the other side of the coin. Where pregnancies are aborted because of superficial things like club foot or cleft lip or even the wrong gender.
Also the abortion lobby puts a lot of misinformation out there... "not even a human just a clump of cells" isnt a new one yet it persists as we can see.

Look I'm the father of a a grown man who was not planned, though born into a loving relationship at the time,  I was only 19, thinking WTF!, abortion never came into our thoughts and while it was difficult and as our relationship fell down we still had our child, which was one of the best unplanned things that Ive ever done, unborn children do deserve to be given a chance and my sister has two children from adoption that she would never had that chance, should abortion been readily available for the girl, as she was unable to look after them.

But there seems to be words like murder and killing and other such words which don't help, there are many cases, some of which I've mentin which need to be Looked at by the pro life people. Anyone uses words like on demand need to get a grip, the thoughts that go through a persons head if faced with the prospect of bringing up a baby alone with no money and future (in their head) must be awful..

I've two daughters also one 18 and the other 16 (next week) and i'm in a position where if something like an unplanned pregnacy happened the child would brought up in a loving  supportive family. That's not always available

In 2018 in England and wales there were 200,608 abortions. It does look a bit like "on demand". There is no way that there were 200,608 rapes, fatal foetal, medical emergencies, incest. If there was well we need to be looking more deeply at how our society in operating.

Bringing up a child with no money is not a precursor to having no future, it should never be accepted as an excuse for an abortion. We live in a society where people's coping mechanisms having plummeted, it is no surprise that a lack of coping mechanisms is linked to the increase in suicide here.

For me the bill which has been introduced is far too loose.

Does that exclude in the case of someone very young, the trauma of pregnancy and birth, the mental well being of the mother during and after the birth, the resentment that mother may feel towards the child which might as we have seen repeatedly on the news manifest itself in ugly forms, would you rather a child live, have a horrible few years and die in awful circumstances.  I am not a woman, I don't have sisters, but I have a mother, a wife and daughters, in a situation with a stable home and stable minds I think best endeavours would ensure any unplanned child is cared for and loved, but that is not the case in many many instances, I think each case is unique and, due to huge cuts, there little or no governmental support out there  so for me the best person to adjudge what is right for them is the mother and her wider support group, if such exists.

You have not listed one reason that I would view as acceptable for having an abortion. You have listed tough scenarios.

.

So don't have one

[BennyCake]

You sum up everything f=cked up about lefties. Crying on the depression thread, yet you post this vile condescending diatribe.

Usual manchurian candidate stuff from the pro aborts. Misogyny,  women haters, body autonomy, cave dwellers, world is flat, all spin words from marketing companies.

As for Sein Fein, at least they're consistent never had any regard for human life.

You make a great point in regards to the ballot box. Where does a Republican or Nationalist voter turn in the North now? Any options outside Aontu? Didn't think the political situation could get any bleaker here.

There's always the DUP. They were against SSM and abortion.

[Mike Tyson]

Some interesting reading from the England & Wales statistics.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/808556/Abortion_Statistics__England_and_Wales_2018__1_.pdf

- Abortion rates have been increasing over the last 10 years for women over 35
- 90% of abortions were carried out before 13 weeks gestation - 80% carried out before 10 weeks
- Since 2008 the abortion rate has been shifting toward the older ages and has dropped for every age cohort under 25
- The trend of abortion rates increasing as levels of deprivation increase remains consistent when the abortion data is studied at both regional and national level

I'd agree with some others on here in that who am I to tell a woman who is subject to rape that she has to carry a constant reminder of that for 9 months and go through the pain and trauma involved?

Do those who are against abortion also protest as vigorously against the morning after pill? If, as some on here have claimed, human life begins at conception why are there not protests at every pharmacy across the country about the morning after pill?

Here's an alternative solution, why don't all males get a vasectomy, then when they want to have children go to the doctor with their partner's permission, reverse it and then once the baby is conceived get the snip again? That'll do away with these abortion on demand claims, the "shouldn't have had unprotected sex" claims and put the power of reproduction into the females hands.

[BennyCake]

You sum up everything f=cked up about lefties. Crying on the depression thread, yet you post this vile condescending diatribe.

Usual manchurian candidate stuff from the pro aborts. Misogyny,  women haters, body autonomy, cave dwellers, world is flat, all spin words from marketing companies.

As for Sein Fein, at least they're consistent never had any regard for human life.

You make a great point in regards to the ballot box. Where does a Republican or Nationalist voter turn in the North now? Any options outside Aontu? Didn't think the political situation could get any bleaker here.

I think this illustrates the huge divide or difference between north and south nowadays - the south has changed dramatically over this this past 25 years and they look at the north as a backward place.

I'd never have thought the Repeal would have passed with such a high majority.   Can probably safely now say there is complete seperation between state and church in the 26.

Also when posting, can you start a new one after 5 or 6 copies instead of a full page of previous posts with your submission at bottom?

Almost 750,000 still voted No. Around one third of those who voted.. If there was a referendum in the north, you would have got at least the same percentage.

[tonto1888]

When does sentience begin? A blade of grass is no more alive than a freshly fertilized egg. A single-cell organism is not a sentient life. You can't have sentience without a functioning brain and central nervous system. You need more than one cell to form a brain.

But of course this is all academic. The principle of bodily autonomy still stands regardless of when you think life begins. The only person with any right to decide what to do with a pregnancy is the mother concerned. All other parties need to mind their own business. They need to adopt Omajoe's policy of "I'm hardly likely to be drawn in to comment on anyone's personal situation when i know sfa about it.." His own words.

Very good Eamon  not going commenting any more on that

But then if bodily autonomy trumps all doesnt that also apply to the human who is having their life snuffed out?

We've been thru the sentience argument b4 your opening a can of worms because:

you dont know where sentience begins or ends brain or no brain,
does this apply to a fully grown person who is not conscious?
a brain is formed at 5/6 weeks

Fine. Let the mother die then. Force women to give birth to stillborn babies. Deny women the right to decide what to do with their own bodies.

What's it going to be next? Reopening the Magdalene laundries?

Get into the 21st century with the rest of us.

As I have said before this debate for me is about on demand abortion, not sure of the particulars of the NI prior to being forced upon us by the Brits but I believe that there was provision for medical emergencies that you mentioned, so really your point is just an appeal to extremism.

As would most, why would you think this opens up the door to rampant abortion? Where is the evidence of this? They've been driven to go to England to have back street abortions, no one in their right mind will go through that just for the craic.

Being told you have a terminal ill child growing in your body or a child with a hole in the skull or other life limiting conditions that the child would barely get by without the help of life support services is that ok?

If your wife was raped, fell pregnant and you decided to keep the child, I get that, it's not the child's fault, but the decision for me would lie with the woman.

I dont think it will open the flood gates just that it will increase but it's a mute point anyway as far as most people are concerned it's just point scoring and irrelevant to people's opinion.

Your points are good ones tho MR2 and i would wrangle with them a lot but practically no piece of legislation is never cut and dry 100% of the time.
90%+ of the cases relate to abortion on demand of an unplanned but otherwise healthy pregnancy so that's what I think should be legislated for.
And that's without getting into the other side of the coin. Where pregnancies are aborted because of superficial things like club foot or cleft lip or even the wrong gender.
Also the abortion lobby puts a lot of misinformation out there... "not even a human just a clump of cells" isnt a new one yet it persists as we can see.

Look I'm the father of a a grown man who was not planned, though born into a loving relationship at the time,  I was only 19, thinking WTF!, abortion never came into our thoughts and while it was difficult and as our relationship fell down we still had our child, which was one of the best unplanned things that Ive ever done, unborn children do deserve to be given a chance and my sister has two children from adoption that she would never had that chance, should abortion been readily available for the girl, as she was unable to look after them.

But there seems to be words like murder and killing and other such words which don't help, there are many cases, some of which I've mentin which need to be Looked at by the pro life people. Anyone uses words like on demand need to get a grip, the thoughts that go through a persons head if faced with the prospect of bringing up a baby alone with no money and future (in their head) must be awful..

I've two daughters also one 18 and the other 16 (next week) and i'm in a position where if something like an unplanned pregnacy happened the child would brought up in a loving  supportive family. That's not always available

In 2018 in England and wales there were 200,608 abortions. It does look a bit like "on demand". There is no way that there were 200,608 rapes, fatal foetal, medical emergencies, incest. If there was well we need to be looking more deeply at how our society in operating.

Bringing up a child with no money is not a precursor to having no future, it should never be accepted as an excuse for an abortion. We live in a society where people's coping mechanisms having plummeted, it is no surprise that a lack of coping mechanisms is linked to the increase in suicide here.

For me the bill which has been introduced is far too loose.

How many pregnancies were there?

657,076

1 out of every 3 wains was dumped in the bin.

On demand id say

Assuming the figures you have given are correct, what were the reasons for the abortions?

[marty34]

You sum up everything f=cked up about lefties. Crying on the depression thread, yet you post this vile condescending diatribe.

Usual manchurian candidate stuff from the pro aborts. Misogyny,  women haters, body autonomy, cave dwellers, world is flat, all spin words from marketing companies.

As for Sein Fein, at least they're consistent never had any regard for human life.

You make a great point in regards to the ballot box. Where does a Republican or Nationalist voter turn in the North now? Any options outside Aontu? Didn't think the political situation could get any bleaker here.

I think this illustrates the huge divide or difference between north and south nowadays - the south has changed dramatically over this this past 25 years and they look at the north as a backward place.

I'd never have thought the Repeal would have passed with such a high majority.   Can probably safely now say there is complete seperation between state and church in the 26.

Also when posting, can you start a new one after 5 or 6 copies instead of a full page of previous posts with your submission at bottom?

Almost 750,000 still voted No. Around one third of those who voted.. If there was a referendum in the north, you would have got at least the same percentage.

But over 66% voted for it - for me that was a huge vote and it shocked me.  It illustrated, more than anything else, how the 26 cos. has chsnged inside a few years.  Consider how powerful the CC was in the south say 25 years ago, then it's a huge sea change.

Do people in the south look at the north as a backward church driven society?  Whatever way you look at it, there is a huge difference between the north and south over these issues.

[Fear Bun Na Sceilpe]

When does sentience begin? A blade of grass is no more alive than a freshly fertilized egg. A single-cell organism is not a sentient life. You can't have sentience without a functioning brain and central nervous system. You need more than one cell to form a brain.

But of course this is all academic. The principle of bodily autonomy still stands regardless of when you think life begins. The only person with any right to decide what to do with a pregnancy is the mother concerned. All other parties need to mind their own business. They need to adopt Omajoe's policy of "I'm hardly likely to be drawn in to comment on anyone's personal situation when i know sfa about it.." His own words.

Very good Eamon  not going commenting any more on that

But then if bodily autonomy trumps all doesnt that also apply to the human who is having their life snuffed out?

We've been thru the sentience argument b4 your opening a can of worms because:

you dont know where sentience begins or ends brain or no brain,
does this apply to a fully grown person who is not conscious?
a brain is formed at 5/6 weeks

Fine. Let the mother die then. Force women to give birth to stillborn babies. Deny women the right to decide what to do with their own bodies.

What's it going to be next? Reopening the Magdalene laundries?

Get into the 21st century with the rest of us.

As I have said before this debate for me is about on demand abortion, not sure of the particulars of the NI prior to being forced upon us by the Brits but I believe that there was provision for medical emergencies that you mentioned, so really your point is just an appeal to extremism.

As would most, why would you think this opens up the door to rampant abortion? Where is the evidence of this? They've been driven to go to England to have back street abortions, no one in their right mind will go through that just for the craic.

Being told you have a terminal ill child growing in your body or a child with a hole in the skull or other life limiting conditions that the child would barely get by without the help of life support services is that ok?

If your wife was raped, fell pregnant and you decided to keep the child, I get that, it's not the child's fault, but the decision for me would lie with the woman.

I dont think it will open the flood gates just that it will increase but it's a mute point anyway as far as most people are concerned it's just point scoring and irrelevant to people's opinion.

Your points are good ones tho MR2 and i would wrangle with them a lot but practically no piece of legislation is never cut and dry 100% of the time.
90%+ of the cases relate to abortion on demand of an unplanned but otherwise healthy pregnancy so that's what I think should be legislated for.
And that's without getting into the other side of the coin. Where pregnancies are aborted because of superficial things like club foot or cleft lip or even the wrong gender.
Also the abortion lobby puts a lot of misinformation out there... "not even a human just a clump of cells" isnt a new one yet it persists as we can see.

Look I'm the father of a a grown man who was not planned, though born into a loving relationship at the time,  I was only 19, thinking WTF!, abortion never came into our thoughts and while it was difficult and as our relationship fell down we still had our child, which was one of the best unplanned things that Ive ever done, unborn children do deserve to be given a chance and my sister has two children from adoption that she would never had that chance, should abortion been readily available for the girl, as she was unable to look after them.

But there seems to be words like murder and killing and other such words which don't help, there are many cases, some of which I've mentin which need to be Looked at by the pro life people. Anyone uses words like on demand need to get a grip, the thoughts that go through a persons head if faced with the prospect of bringing up a baby alone with no money and future (in their head) must be awful..

I've two daughters also one 18 and the other 16 (next week) and i'm in a position where if something like an unplanned pregnacy happened the child would brought up in a loving  supportive family. That's not always available

In 2018 in England and wales there were 200,608 abortions. It does look a bit like "on demand". There is no way that there were 200,608 rapes, fatal foetal, medical emergencies, incest. If there was well we need to be looking more deeply at how our society in operating.

Bringing up a child with no money is not a precursor to having no future, it should never be accepted as an excuse for an abortion. We live in a society where people's coping mechanisms having plummeted, it is no surprise that a lack of coping mechanisms is linked to the increase in suicide here.

For me the bill which has been introduced is far too loose.

How many pregnancies were there?

657,076

1 out of every 3 wains was dumped in the bin.

On demand id say

Assuming the figures you have given are correct, what were the reasons for the abortions?

[/b]

Sorry don't have that data.

But you would assume based on the large number that a high proportion of them are just unwanted inconvenient pregnancies.

[HiMucker]

You sum up everything f=cked up about lefties. Crying on the depression thread, yet you post this vile condescending diatribe.

Usual manchurian candidate stuff from the pro aborts. Misogyny,  women haters, body autonomy, cave dwellers, world is flat, all spin words from marketing companies.

As for Sein Fein, at least they're consistent never had any regard for human life.

You make a great point in regards to the ballot box. Where does a Republican or Nationalist voter turn in the North now? Any options outside Aontu? Didn't think the political situation could get any bleaker here.

I think this illustrates the huge divide or difference between north and south nowadays - the south has changed dramatically over this this past 25 years and they look at the north as a backward place.

I'd never have thought the Repeal would have passed with such a high majority.   Can probably safely now say there is complete seperation between state and church in the 26.

Also when posting, can you start a new one after 5 or 6 copies instead of a full page of previous posts with your submission at bottom?

Almost 750,000 still voted No. Around one third of those who voted.. If there was a referendum in the north, you would have got at least the same percentage.

But over 66% voted for it - for me that was a huge vote and it shocked me.  It illustrated, more than anything else, how the 26 cos. has chsnged inside a few years.  Consider how powerful the CC was in the south say 25 years ago, then it's a huge sea change.

Do people in the south look at the north as a backward church driven society?  Whatever way you look at it, there is a huge difference between the north and south over these issues.

I dont think there is. I imagine if there was a referendum here on SSM and abortion it would have returned similar results.

[Mike Tyson]

97.7% of abortions in England & Wales were performed under ground C - the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman.

[BennyCake]

You sum up everything f=cked up about lefties. Crying on the depression thread, yet you post this vile condescending diatribe.

Usual manchurian candidate stuff from the pro aborts. Misogyny,  women haters, body autonomy, cave dwellers, world is flat, all spin words from marketing companies.

As for Sein Fein, at least they're consistent never had any regard for human life.

You make a great point in regards to the ballot box. Where does a Republican or Nationalist voter turn in the North now? Any options outside Aontu? Didn't think the political situation could get any bleaker here.

I think this illustrates the huge divide or difference between north and south nowadays - the south has changed dramatically over this this past 25 years and they look at the north as a backward place.

I'd never have thought the Repeal would have passed with such a high majority.   Can probably safely now say there is complete seperation between state and church in the 26.

Also when posting, can you start a new one after 5 or 6 copies instead of a full page of previous posts with your submission at bottom?

Almost 750,000 still voted No. Around one third of those who voted.. If there was a referendum in the north, you would have got at least the same percentage.

But over 66% voted for it - for me that was a huge vote and it shocked me.  It illustrated, more than anything else, how the 26 cos. has chsnged inside a few years.  Consider how powerful the CC was in the south say 25 years ago, then it's a huge sea change.

Do people in the south look at the north as a backward church driven society?  Whatever way you look at it, there is a huge difference between the north and south over these issues.

Less than two thirds turned out. So, you might say that 1/3 of people didn't care enough to vote. I knew for sure it would pass. Had I had a vote, I don't think I'd have bothered. The true figure for/against, we don't know.

I doubt the church had much influence on the vote. People have picked and chosen bits of the churche's teachings over the years, regarding contraception, unmarried living together, sex, etc, so I doubt it influenced people's vote. It wouldn't have influenced votes in the north either. It's not as if nobody goes to mass in the south and everybody goes in the north.

[Itchy]

You sum up everything f=cked up about lefties. Crying on the depression thread, yet you post this vile condescending diatribe.

Usual manchurian candidate stuff from the pro aborts. Misogyny,  women haters, body autonomy, cave dwellers, world is flat, all spin words from marketing companies.

As for Sein Fein, at least they're consistent never had any regard for human life.

You make a great point in regards to the ballot box. Where does a Republican or Nationalist voter turn in the North now? Any options outside Aontu? Didn't think the political situation could get any bleaker here.

Sure go and vote for a fundamentalist Christian party so, there are plenty of them gobshites up North. Take your pick.

[Fear Bun Na Sceilpe]

You sum up everything f=cked up about lefties. Crying on the depression thread, yet you post this vile condescending diatribe.

Usual manchurian candidate stuff from the pro aborts. Misogyny,  women haters, body autonomy, cave dwellers, world is flat, all spin words from marketing companies.

As for Sein Fein, at least they're consistent never had any regard for human life.

You make a great point in regards to the ballot box. Where does a Republican or Nationalist voter turn in the North now? Any options outside Aontu? Didn't think the political situation could get any bleaker here.

I think this illustrates the huge divide or difference between north and south nowadays - the south has changed dramatically over this this past 25 years and they look at the north as a backward place.

I'd never have thought the Repeal would have passed with such a high majority.   Can probably safely now say there is complete seperation between state and church in the 26.

Also when posting, can you start a new one after 5 or 6 copies instead of a full page of previous posts with your submission at bottom?

Almost 750,000 still voted No. Around one third of those who voted.. If there was a referendum in the north, you would have got at least the same percentage.

But over 66% voted for it - for me that was a huge vote and it shocked me.  It illustrated, more than anything else, how the 26 cos. has chsnged inside a few years.  Consider how powerful the CC was in the south say 25 years ago, then it's a huge sea change.

Do people in the south look at the north as a backward church driven society?  Whatever way you look at it, there is a huge difference between the north and south over these issues.

Less than two thirds turned out. So, you might say that 1/3 of people didn't care enough to vote. I knew for sure it would pass. Had I had a vote, I don't think I'd have bothered. The true figure for/against, we don't know.

I doubt the church had much influence on the vote. People have picked and chosen bits of the churche's teachings over the years, regarding contraception, unmarried living together, sex, etc, so I doubt it influenced people's vote. It wouldn't have influenced votes in the north either. It's not as if nobody goes to mass in the south and everybody goes in the north.

Yes I agree, its about morals not religion. I don't take my lead from the church, I happen to agree with SSM but not the current abortion laws. It is a view which i have personally developed.  Even though I agree with one and not the other I still believe that both should be voted on by us here.