Intercounty apathy a worrying trend

[Rossfan]

It seems to me that amidst all the convoluted, headache-inducing suggestions we've listened to for a revised championship structure thus far, the much simpler and appropriate answer has always been staring us in the face.
If a few big-time charlies are more motivated by taking a hammering from a far superior team in front of a big crowd on a sunny day than they are by actually winning games, then you're better off without them.
We don't live in an age of 'shock' results anymore.
The cards are stacked against the little guy like never before in this new high-performance era.
It's time to stop deluding ourselves.

Tell that to Tipp

With all the good underage teams of recent years I suspect Tipp would have won the Junior and Inter and would now be Senior if such existed this decade.
Another thing to " 2037 Commission" needs to examine is the need for Provincials Councils in this high tech instant communication era plus
Demographics.

[Jinxy]

It seems to me that amidst all the convoluted, headache-inducing suggestions we've listened to for a revised championship structure thus far, the much simpler and appropriate answer has always been staring us in the face.
If a few big-time charlies are more motivated by taking a hammering from a far superior team in front of a big crowd on a sunny day than they are by actually winning games, then you're better off without them.
We don't live in an age of 'shock' results anymore.
The cards are stacked against the little guy like never before in this new high-performance era.
It's time to stop deluding ourselves.

Tell that to Tipp

Tipp are not a 'weaker' county though, in terms of resources or playing personnel.
Their championship form in recent years would have them as a very competitive 'high' intermediate team or 'low' senior team in the revised structure.
I don't know why they do so poorly in the league.
They were one spot away from dropping to Division 4, which doesn't make sense to me.
Anyway, I'd say they wouldn't be long moving up to Division 2 in the NFL if they knew it would affect their subsequent grading for the championship.

[AZOffaly]

It seems to me that amidst all the convoluted, headache-inducing suggestions we've listened to for a revised championship structure thus far, the much simpler and appropriate answer has always been staring us in the face.
If a few big-time charlies are more motivated by taking a hammering from a far superior team in front of a big crowd on a sunny day than they are by actually winning games, then you're better off without them.
We don't live in an age of 'shock' results anymore.
The cards are stacked against the little guy like never before in this new high-performance era.
It's time to stop deluding ourselves.

Tell that to Tipp

With all the good underage teams of recent years I suspect Tipp would have won the Junior and Inter and would now be Senior if such existed this decade.
Another thing to " 2037 Commission" needs to examine is the need for Provincials Councils in this high tech instant communication era plus
Demographics.

I don't think they'd have kept the players they did. In fact I think the relatively tenuous hold they have was laid bare last year with the lads leaving the panels for different things. The outlook was bleak enough at the start of the year, and I think that's why a few of the lads didn't stay around. What happened subsequently will hopefully bolster the whole setup, but it wouldn't take much for the Tipp project to derail. You need to be going for years and be well established before you can come off high alert in terms of attracting and keeping players.

[AZOffaly]

It seems to me that amidst all the convoluted, headache-inducing suggestions we've listened to for a revised championship structure thus far, the much simpler and appropriate answer has always been staring us in the face.
If a few big-time charlies are more motivated by taking a hammering from a far superior team in front of a big crowd on a sunny day than they are by actually winning games, then you're better off without them.
We don't live in an age of 'shock' results anymore.
The cards are stacked against the little guy like never before in this new high-performance era.
It's time to stop deluding ourselves.

Tell that to Tipp

Tipp are not a 'weaker' county though, in terms of resources or playing personnel.
Their championship form in recent years would have them as a very competitive 'high' intermediate team or 'low' senior team in the revised structure.
I don't know why they do so poorly in the league.
They were one spot away from dropping to Division 4, which doesn't make sense to me.
Anyway, I'd say they wouldn't be long moving up to Division 2 in the NFL if they knew it would affect their subsequent grading for the championship.

Tipp were a Division 4 team two or three years ago. If you told young players in Tipp that they would aspire to play Division 4, and some third tier cup, and maybe someday be allowed play in the Sam Maguire, you'd have a lot less than we even have now willing to go that route. Even several years ago, they could aspire to playing in the Munster Championship, and have big days v Cork and Kerry. That kept them going for a long time.

[Jinxy]

They'll still have the Munster championship though.

[AZOffaly]

With all these proposals I'm confused now. As Esmerelda states, I've often questioned exactly what problem we are trying to fix.

- Uncompetitive games
- Long running championship
- Lip service to the league
- Dying Provincial Championships
- More games between big teams
- TV ratings
- Attendances
- Player commitment/burnout
- Player apathy/leaving panels

Every time this thread comes up a variation appears, and I don't claim to know everything by any means, but one thing I do know is that unless there is consensus about what the problem(s) is/are, then ANY modification will just end up causing a different bullet point being added above.

And to just say introduce a tiered championship to address some of the points above, would be a half arsed solution which would exacerbate some of the other issues, and introduce brand new ones, unless there is a real will for it to be introduced by the people who matter most. The players, the people involved with county teams, and the counties themselves. Media and supporters decrying some aspects and dying for some sort of nirvana where Kerry play Dublin, Tyrone and Mayo every week does not represent a solid basis for change.

[Jinxy]

Why is player apathy a problem at the moment?

[AZOffaly]

Why is player apathy a problem at the moment?

Who knows? Myriad reasons.

Style of play? Commitment required? Chances of winning Sam? Women preferring Rugby players? Wine, women and song? If you are suggesting that player apathy would be one issue resolved at a sweep by introducing a tiered championship, I think you are wrong. I think what you would do is create a whole slew of other disaffected players who have no interest in playing devalued competitions and being told they are not allowed waste the big teams' time.

[Jinxy]

Nobody is holding a gun to anybody's head forcing them to play inter-county football and players are free to opt in/out if they want to.
It has ever been thus, with lads going travelling, heading to America for the summer etc.
Should that stop us from trying a new system, that they are already familiar with at club level?
If it's not unfair at club level, why would it be unfair at county level?

My feeling is that the lure of winning matches with a realistic chance of progression, coupled with the prospect of a sunny day out in front of a big crowd against the big dogs in a cup competition, would be enough to maintain interest levels.
For me, the most consistently entertaining and competitive inter-county competition we have is the league.
I love the idea of the last day where the games are all finishing up within minutes of each other and you're waiting to hear how other teams above/below you got on, and how that affects your place in the table.
Also, knowing when and where games will be played well in advance.
You get to watch your team at home and then go on the road to new and exciting places like Carrick-on-Shannon and Tullamore!

To be honest, players are primarily interested in themselves and looking after their own interests.
I was the same when I was playing.
I just think that the Association's interests, and by that I mean the interests of the wider membership, supercede that.

[Zulu]

Jinxy, you're bang about the league, it's by far the best competition in the GAA and every other team sport recognises that but us. If you could scrap the whole GAA system and start again what would people come up with? That's all that needs to be answered and if you could you wouldn't have what we have and you wouldn't have the provincials as a central focus of the main competition. The leagues need to replace the provincials as the core element of the championship, once you do that most of the problems will be solved.

[BallyhaiseMan]

The attitude of Div 3 and 4 players towards a tiered competition merely shows their lack of ambition for all to see. Instead of earning the right to compete with the best they want it guaranteed to them, no matter how bad they are. They also forget that even if they begin in tier 3, they are only 2 years away from the top level as they can work hard, measure progress and work their way up. At the moment they are light years away and only codding themselves.

Are you sure Gaelic Football is the sport for you???
If a player is deemed good enough to make a county panel and is willing to put in the 5-7 training sessions throughout the season,including recovery sessions required to represent their county, that earns them the right to match up against the best,no matter  how good or bad their team is.
Division 3 and 4 National League teams have every much a right to partake in the All Ireland championship as the likes of Dublin or Kerry.

So we continue with the system we have where club football is put on hold while there are 2 or 3 months of completely meaningless matches up to the start of august when th real competition starts. A competition where the likes of carlow, leitrim, waterford could be drawn against dublin, mayo, kerry is just a ridiculous situation. There's a complete apathy there among a lot of players of teams outside the top 6 or 8 teams and also an even bigger apathy among supporters in general. The influential managers of the top teams will continue to say that there is nothing wrong with the system but they are failing to see the problems at lower level teams.

You talk about general apathy among alot of teams outside the top 6 or 8 and an even bigger apathy among supporters. If you think that is bad,imagine the apathy if all the players had to look forward to was a Tommy Murphy cup game with a fellow Division 3/4 team in May, in front of 800/1,000 spectators. I know a few years ago before this resurgence,Cavan were atrocious and were literally only saved from going down to Division 4 for the first time ever by scoring difference and were beaten by Cork by 20 plus points in the championship. The players on the panel that i know,knew results wouldn't be great,but still put in the hard work knowing because they still looked forward to their day in the sun in Breffni in front of 15,000 for the Ulster Championship or maybe a qualifier with an Ulster county or one of the big boys in front of a large attendance.

I completely understand where yourself and Jinxy are coming from when you say this by the way so i'm not rubbishing your views, and i know in a perfect world, the grading like we have in club football which is what you  are suggesting would probably be the right way to go,but because we have the tradition of everyone bar Kilkenny competing in the same championship,no matter how bad they are,any shift away from that would probably cause serious  problems with those counties at the lower ends of the spectrum in terms of player participation. It would be a disaster in my opinion.

[lenny]

The attitude of Div 3 and 4 players towards a tiered competition merely shows their lack of ambition for all to see. Instead of earning the right to compete with the best they want it guaranteed to them, no matter how bad they are. They also forget that even if they begin in tier 3, they are only 2 years away from the top level as they can work hard, measure progress and work their way up. At the moment they are light years away and only codding themselves.

Are you sure Gaelic Football is the sport for you???
If a player is deemed good enough to make a county panel and is willing to put in the 5-7 training sessions throughout the season,including recovery sessions required to represent their county, that earns them the right to match up against the best,no matter  how good or bad their team is.
Division 3 and 4 National League teams have every much a right to partake in the All Ireland championship as the likes of Dublin or Kerry.

So we continue with the system we have where club football is put on hold while there are 2 or 3 months of completely meaningless matches up to the start of august when th real competition starts. A competition where the likes of carlow, leitrim, waterford could be drawn against dublin, mayo, kerry is just a ridiculous situation. There's a complete apathy there among a lot of players of teams outside the top 6 or 8 teams and also an even bigger apathy among supporters in general. The influential managers of the top teams will continue to say that there is nothing wrong with the system but they are failing to see the problems at lower level teams.

You talk about general apathy among alot of teams outside the top 6 or 8 and an even bigger apathy among supporters. If you think that is bad,imagine the apathy if all the players had to look forward to was a Tommy Murphy cup game with a fellow Division 3/4 team in May, in front of 800/1,000 spectators. I know a few years ago before this resurgence,Cavan were atrocious and were literally only saved from going down to Division 4 for the first time ever by scoring difference and were beaten by Cork by 20 plus points in the championship. The players on the panel that i know,knew results wouldn't be great,but still put in the hard work knowing because they still looked forward to their day in the sun in Breffni in front of 15,000 for the Ulster Championship or maybe a qualifier with an Ulster county or one of the big boys in front of a large attendance.

I completely understand where yourself and Jinxy are coming from when you say this by the way so i'm not rubbishing your views, and i know in a perfect world, the grading like we have in club football which is what you  are suggesting would probably be the right way to go,but because we have the tradition of everyone bar Kilkenny competing in the same championship,no matter how bad they are,any shift away from that would probably cause serious  problems with those counties at the lower ends of the spectrum in terms of player participation. It would be a disaster in my opinion.

I'm not talking about a Tommy Murphy cup for weak teams who get knocked out of the championship. And I'm not just thinking of division 4 teams. I'm thinking of a proper intermediate and junior championship for teams in division 2,3 and 4.

[BallyhaiseMan]

The attitude of Div 3 and 4 players towards a tiered competition merely shows their lack of ambition for all to see. Instead of earning the right to compete with the best they want it guaranteed to them, no matter how bad they are. They also forget that even if they begin in tier 3, they are only 2 years away from the top level as they can work hard, measure progress and work their way up. At the moment they are light years away and only codding themselves.

Are you sure Gaelic Football is the sport for you???
If a player is deemed good enough to make a county panel and is willing to put in the 5-7 training sessions throughout the season,including recovery sessions required to represent their county, that earns them the right to match up against the best,no matter  how good or bad their team is.
Division 3 and 4 National League teams have every much a right to partake in the All Ireland championship as the likes of Dublin or Kerry.

So we continue with the system we have where club football is put on hold while there are 2 or 3 months of completely meaningless matches up to the start of august when th real competition starts. A competition where the likes of carlow, leitrim, waterford could be drawn against dublin, mayo, kerry is just a ridiculous situation. There's a complete apathy there among a lot of players of teams outside the top 6 or 8 teams and also an even bigger apathy among supporters in general. The influential managers of the top teams will continue to say that there is nothing wrong with the system but they are failing to see the problems at lower level teams.

You talk about general apathy among alot of teams outside the top 6 or 8 and an even bigger apathy among supporters. If you think that is bad,imagine the apathy if all the players had to look forward to was a Tommy Murphy cup game with a fellow Division 3/4 team in May, in front of 800/1,000 spectators. I know a few years ago before this resurgence,Cavan were atrocious and were literally only saved from going down to Division 4 for the first time ever by scoring difference and were beaten by Cork by 20 plus points in the championship. The players on the panel that i know,knew results wouldn't be great,but still put in the hard work knowing because they still looked forward to their day in the sun in Breffni in front of 15,000 for the Ulster Championship or maybe a qualifier with an Ulster county or one of the big boys in front of a large attendance.

I completely understand where yourself and Jinxy are coming from when you say this by the way so i'm not rubbishing your views, and i know in a perfect world, the grading like we have in club football which is what you  are suggesting would probably be the right way to go,but because we have the tradition of everyone bar Kilkenny competing in the same championship,no matter how bad they are,any shift away from that would probably cause serious  problems with those counties at the lower ends of the spectrum in terms of player participation. It would be a disaster in my opinion.

I'm not talking about a Tommy Murphy cup for weak teams who get knocked out of the championship. And I'm not just thinking of division 4 teams. I'm thinking of a proper intermediate and junior championship for teams in division 2,3 and 4.

I know you're not talking about a Tommy Murphy Cup.

Senior-Sam Maguire
Intermediate-Tier 2
Junior- Tier 3

Unfortunately,teams and players outside the top tier wont be interested,I'm open to correct but haven't the GPA already stated that their membership aren't interested in graded competitions for Senior Inter county football. I honestly don't think supporters of counties in Tier 2 and Tier 3 competitions would have much interest either. Whatever sense it makes and i do agree it does make alot of sense,i think it's a complete no-goer.

[Jinxy]

Also, re player and spectator apathy within a tiered system, I genuinely believe that if you gave everyone competitive, regular games during the spring/summer months you'd generate plenty of interest.
Again, the devil would be in the detail and I'm sure there would be issues regarding how this structure would dovetail with the club season AND the inter-county hurling season.

[lenny]

The attitude of Div 3 and 4 players towards a tiered competition merely shows their lack of ambition for all to see. Instead of earning the right to compete with the best they want it guaranteed to them, no matter how bad they are. They also forget that even if they begin in tier 3, they are only 2 years away from the top level as they can work hard, measure progress and work their way up. At the moment they are light years away and only codding themselves.

Are you sure Gaelic Football is the sport for you???
If a player is deemed good enough to make a county panel and is willing to put in the 5-7 training sessions throughout the season,including recovery sessions required to represent their county, that earns them the right to match up against the best,no matter  how good or bad their team is.
Division 3 and 4 National League teams have every much a right to partake in the All Ireland championship as the likes of Dublin or Kerry.

So we continue with the system we have where club football is put on hold while there are 2 or 3 months of completely meaningless matches up to the start of august when th real competition starts. A competition where the likes of carlow, leitrim, waterford could be drawn against dublin, mayo, kerry is just a ridiculous situation. There's a complete apathy there among a lot of players of teams outside the top 6 or 8 teams and also an even bigger apathy among supporters in general. The influential managers of the top teams will continue to say that there is nothing wrong with the system but they are failing to see the problems at lower level teams.

You talk about general apathy among alot of teams outside the top 6 or 8 and an even bigger apathy among supporters. If you think that is bad,imagine the apathy if all the players had to look forward to was a Tommy Murphy cup game with a fellow Division 3/4 team in May, in front of 800/1,000 spectators. I know a few years ago before this resurgence,Cavan were atrocious and were literally only saved from going down to Division 4 for the first time ever by scoring difference and were beaten by Cork by 20 plus points in the championship. The players on the panel that i know,knew results wouldn't be great,but still put in the hard work knowing because they still looked forward to their day in the sun in Breffni in front of 15,000 for the Ulster Championship or maybe a qualifier with an Ulster county or one of the big boys in front of a large attendance.

I completely understand where yourself and Jinxy are coming from when you say this by the way so i'm not rubbishing your views, and i know in a perfect world, the grading like we have in club football which is what you  are suggesting would probably be the right way to go,but because we have the tradition of everyone bar Kilkenny competing in the same championship,no matter how bad they are,any shift away from that would probably cause serious  problems with those counties at the lower ends of the spectrum in terms of player participation. It would be a disaster in my opinion.

I'm not talking about a Tommy Murphy cup for weak teams who get knocked out of the championship. And I'm not just thinking of division 4 teams. I'm thinking of a proper intermediate and junior championship for teams in division 2,3 and 4.

I know you're not talking about a Tommy Murphy Cup.

Senior-Sam Maguire
Intermediate-Tier 2
Junior- Tier 3

Unfortunately,teams and players outside the top tier wont be interested,I'm open to correct but haven't the GPA already stated that their membership aren't interested in graded competitions for Senior Inter county football. I honestly don't think supporters of counties in Tier 2 and Tier 3 competitions would have much interest either. Whatever sense it makes and i do agree it does make alot of sense,i think it's a complete no-goer.

People keep saying that the attraction of the current system to players is the prospect of the sunny day in may/june playing in front of 15.000 people. Crowds are dwindling though and if derry were drawn v Fermanagh or antrim in the first round of the championship there would be a good few less than 10,000 at it. On the other hand if derry had an all ireland intermediate quarter or semi final v meath/galway/down/Armagh I could imagine a crowd of at least 15k-20k easily. Simply because it would be a meaningful competition which we had a chance of winning and the prospect of moving up a level to senior for the following year. Waterford v limerick in a football championship wouldn't draw a big crowd at the moment so it's not fair for people to keep saying there's no pint changing the system because teams like that wouldn't draw a crowd. It's the middle band of teams in particular who have the most to gain from a change to the system but the really weak teams have the prospect of progressing also.