Super 8s

Started by theticklemister, February 19, 2017, 10:55:16 PM

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From the Bunker

This is the bother with a dead rubber last round game, especially if it is only a dead rubber game for one of the contestants. It will in turn make the other fixture in the group redundant as well.

The thing I hate most about Super 8 is that you can beat Beat Dublin, Tyrone, Donegal, Kerry, Mayo in the home run of the championship after any of them could have been beaten in their provincial Championship and they could still have to be beaten in a final. It's just wrong giving teams so many chances.

Esmarelda

Quote from: Lone Shark on April 02, 2017, 01:57:18 AM
I see some Meath heads are a bit peeved at the team that Kildare have picked for this weekend's game in Galway. A match that would be very competitive if both sides were at full strength, now sees Paddy Power lay odds of 1/14 Galway and 9/1 Kildare, with an 8 point handicap.

If Meath are annoyed now, imagine if this happened in the championship, at the quarter final stages? I cannot get my head around why no-one is considering the absolute sh1tstorm that will be unleashed when this finally happens.

Moreover, has anybody outlined what will happen in the event of a walkover in a game like that?

Think logically for a moment, and imagine I'm the Dublin manager, in a super eight group featuring the Dubs, Kerry, provincial winners, and we'll say Cavan and Kildare for the sake of argument. The first four results are:

Dublin beat Cavan in Breffni
Kildare and Kerry draw in Newbridge

Kildare beat Cavan in Croke Park
Dublin beat Kerry in Croke Park

Final round is coming up, and Kerry will almost certainly beat Cavan in Killarney- but if Dublin don't beat Kildare, Kerry wwill be knocked out regardless- and with all due respect to Kildare, there's only one of those teams that represents a potential threat to Dublin in an All Ireland final.

Moreover, why in the name of God would I risk injuries in that game? Surely the logical thing to do for both reasons is to either concede a walkover, or else give a full game to the players in my squad that are effectively numbers 21-35. Are we ready for the riots that would ensue when that happens?
Although your general point about the dead rubbers is valid, to quote from the proposal itself: "Again, critics seem to expect an ideal in the GAA that does not exist anywhere else - there is a risk of a 'dead rubber' game in every kind of round-robin format
in every sport. Moreover, many of our counties are happy to play their club championships on this basis. In addition – and very importantly – the fact that the two provincial champions in each of the groups play each other in the first game reduces the likelihood of meaningless games in Round 3."

In your example, Dublin would play Kerry and Cavan would play Kidare in the first game.

Also, Kildare drawing against Kerry? Sure I thought the small teams had no chance in this format :)

Finally, if players decide to pass up a game against a Top 8 team in July/August then it might say a lot about them. I know that's easy for me to say and it might seem harsh, but surely players want to play the big teams in order to grow, even if there isn't an immediate benefit to it?

OgraAnDun

Quote from: joemamas on April 02, 2017, 03:36:52 AM
Fair and good point.
You just hope that managers have some integrity, on the other hand if you don't control your own destiny a la Meath tomorrow then can you really blame somebody else

It's not really about integrity, if you've already qualified (like Kildare have been promoted), then the manager has every right to rest a few players, see how good the bench is and avoid any possible injuries to the main men.

From the Bunker

Quote from: Esmarelda on April 02, 2017, 10:49:13 AM
Quote from: Lone Shark on April 02, 2017, 01:57:18 AM
I see some Meath heads are a bit peeved at the team that Kildare have picked for this weekend's game in Galway. A match that would be very competitive if both sides were at full strength, now sees Paddy Power lay odds of 1/14 Galway and 9/1 Kildare, with an 8 point handicap.

If Meath are annoyed now, imagine if this happened in the championship, at the quarter final stages? I cannot get my head around why no-one is considering the absolute sh1tstorm that will be unleashed when this finally happens.

Moreover, has anybody outlined what will happen in the event of a walkover in a game like that?

Think logically for a moment, and imagine I'm the Dublin manager, in a super eight group featuring the Dubs, Kerry, provincial winners, and we'll say Cavan and Kildare for the sake of argument. The first four results are:

Dublin beat Cavan in Breffni
Kildare and Kerry draw in Newbridge

Kildare beat Cavan in Croke Park
Dublin beat Kerry in Croke Park

Final round is coming up, and Kerry will almost certainly beat Cavan in Killarney- but if Dublin don't beat Kildare, Kerry wwill be knocked out regardless- and with all due respect to Kildare, there's only one of those teams that represents a potential threat to Dublin in an All Ireland final.

Moreover, why in the name of God would I risk injuries in that game? Surely the logical thing to do for both reasons is to either concede a walkover, or else give a full game to the players in my squad that are effectively numbers 21-35. Are we ready for the riots that would ensue when that happens?
Although your general point about the dead rubbers is valid, to quote from the proposal itself: "Again, critics seem to expect an ideal in the GAA that does not exist anywhere else - there is a risk of a 'dead rubber' game in every kind of round-robin format
in every sport. Moreover, many of our counties are happy to play their club championships on this basis. In addition – and very importantly – the fact that the two provincial champions in each of the groups play each other in the first game reduces the likelihood of meaningless games in Round 3."

In your example, Dublin would play Kerry and Cavan would play Kidare in the first game.

Also, Kildare drawing against Kerry? Sure I thought the small teams had no chance in this format :)

Finally, if players decide to pass up a game against a Top 8 team in July/August then it might say a lot about them. I know that's easy for me to say and it might seem harsh, but surely players want to play the big teams in order to grow, even if there isn't an immediate benefit to it?

RUBBISH! Players don't decide to play. Managers decide if they play! There will be dead rubber games. This is a fact! Players will be rested by the teams with bigger squads in games of less importance. Super 8 will give the Dublin (especially), Tyrone, Donegal, Kerry, Mayo more breathing space.

Esmarelda

Quote from: From the Bunker on April 02, 2017, 01:18:12 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on April 02, 2017, 10:49:13 AM
Quote from: Lone Shark on April 02, 2017, 01:57:18 AM
I see some Meath heads are a bit peeved at the team that Kildare have picked for this weekend's game in Galway. A match that would be very competitive if both sides were at full strength, now sees Paddy Power lay odds of 1/14 Galway and 9/1 Kildare, with an 8 point handicap.

If Meath are annoyed now, imagine if this happened in the championship, at the quarter final stages? I cannot get my head around why no-one is considering the absolute sh1tstorm that will be unleashed when this finally happens.

Moreover, has anybody outlined what will happen in the event of a walkover in a game like that?

Think logically for a moment, and imagine I'm the Dublin manager, in a super eight group featuring the Dubs, Kerry, provincial winners, and we'll say Cavan and Kildare for the sake of argument. The first four results are:

Dublin beat Cavan in Breffni
Kildare and Kerry draw in Newbridge

Kildare beat Cavan in Croke Park
Dublin beat Kerry in Croke Park

Final round is coming up, and Kerry will almost certainly beat Cavan in Killarney- but if Dublin don't beat Kildare, Kerry wwill be knocked out regardless- and with all due respect to Kildare, there's only one of those teams that represents a potential threat to Dublin in an All Ireland final.

Moreover, why in the name of God would I risk injuries in that game? Surely the logical thing to do for both reasons is to either concede a walkover, or else give a full game to the players in my squad that are effectively numbers 21-35. Are we ready for the riots that would ensue when that happens?
Although your general point about the dead rubbers is valid, to quote from the proposal itself: "Again, critics seem to expect an ideal in the GAA that does not exist anywhere else - there is a risk of a 'dead rubber' game in every kind of round-robin format
in every sport. Moreover, many of our counties are happy to play their club championships on this basis. In addition – and very importantly – the fact that the two provincial champions in each of the groups play each other in the first game reduces the likelihood of meaningless games in Round 3."

In your example, Dublin would play Kerry and Cavan would play Kidare in the first game.

Also, Kildare drawing against Kerry? Sure I thought the small teams had no chance in this format :)

Finally, if players decide to pass up a game against a Top 8 team in July/August then it might say a lot about them. I know that's easy for me to say and it might seem harsh, but surely players want to play the big teams in order to grow, even if there isn't an immediate benefit to it?

RUBBISH! Players don't decide to play. Managers decide if they play! There will be dead rubber games. This is a fact! Players will be rested by the teams with bigger squads in games of less importance. Super 8 will give the Dublin (especially), Tyrone, Donegal, Kerry, Mayo more breathing space.
I meant if players from the teams that are already out decide to leave the panel with a game left. Managers would have no say in that case.

Zulu

Quote from: From the Bunker on April 02, 2017, 09:55:19 AM
This is the bother with a dead rubber last round game, especially if it is only a dead rubber game for one of the contestants. It will in turn make the other fixture in the group redundant as well.

The thing I hate most about Super 8 is that you can beat Beat Dublin, Tyrone, Donegal, Kerry, Mayo in the home run of the championship after any of them could have been beaten in their provincial Championship and they could still have to be beaten in a final. It's just wrong giving teams so many chances.

You hate giving teams more games?? So what if they could be beaten twice and still win the All Ireland? There's hardly a major team sport competition in the world that is straight knockout. In an era of mass sports coverage only a mad man would argue for less
GAA games. We need more bloody games not less.

From the Bunker

Quote from: Zulu on April 02, 2017, 02:02:56 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on April 02, 2017, 09:55:19 AM
This is the bother with a dead rubber last round game, especially if it is only a dead rubber game for one of the contestants. It will in turn make the other fixture in the group redundant as well.

The thing I hate most about Super 8 is that you can beat Beat Dublin, Tyrone, Donegal, Kerry, Mayo in the home run of the championship after any of them could have been beaten in their provincial Championship and they could still have to be beaten in a final. It's just wrong giving teams so many chances.

You hate giving teams more games?? So what if they could be beaten twice and still win the All Ireland? There's hardly a major team sport competition in the world that is straight knockout. In an era of mass sports coverage only a mad man would argue for less
GAA games. We need more bloody games not less.

How many intercounty games do you go to in a Summer?

Zulu

Zero for most of the past six or seven years, why?

From the Bunker

Quote from: Zulu on April 02, 2017, 06:52:07 PM
Zero for most of the past six or seven years, why?

You see, you want more games! But you won't be traipsing around the country to go see them. It costs a lot of money and time! We already have enough games in the Summer. It's ok for the Dubs all the games are on their door-step. Time and money to go to games are a lot less for them. You'll give me the yarn of the Super 8 giving home games. But that, like all the other promises is baloney! Dublin will play all their games in Croker unless their last game is a Dead Rubber!

I'm guessing you are not living in Ireland and this is the reason you can't make it to games.

Zulu

Yep, abroad. Games are primarily for the players. Of course I understand it's costly for supporters but that's hardly a reason not to have them. Supporters can choose not go to some games if they can't afford it but we should still have them. Today was a perfect example of what our season should look like, lots of games between teams of similar ability dotted all over the country with big crowds. Now championship takes over and the God-awful provincial championships will bore us to death for two months before we get a few games worth taking about. I much prefer the league to the championship which is usually terrible bar one or two games.

moysider


I really enjoyed that stuff in Castlebar today. I would be of the opinion that the league is not broad enough. Not enough games imo. I'd scrap the early provincial stuff and have 3 divisions of 10 and a proper league without a final. It's all very well going on about the clubs but the only show in town really is the inter-county game. It's what drives the popularity of the sport.

Croí na hÉireann

Quote from: Lone Shark on April 02, 2017, 01:57:18 AM
I see some Meath heads are a bit peeved at the team that Kildare have picked for this weekend's game in Galway. A match that would be very competitive if both sides were at full strength, now sees Paddy Power lay odds of 1/14 Galway and 9/1 Kildare, with an 8 point handicap.

If Meath are annoyed now, imagine if this happened in the championship, at the quarter final stages? I cannot get my head around why no-one is considering the absolute sh1tstorm that will be unleashed when this finally happens.

Moreover, has anybody outlined what will happen in the event of a walkover in a game like that?

Think logically for a moment, and imagine I'm the Dublin manager, in a super eight group featuring the Dubs, Kerry, provincial winners, and we'll say Cavan and Kildare for the sake of argument. The first four results are:

Dublin beat Cavan in Breffni
Kildare and Kerry draw in Newbridge

Kildare beat Cavan in Croke Park
Dublin beat Kerry in Croke Park

Final round is coming up, and Kerry will almost certainly beat Cavan in Killarney- but if Dublin don't beat Kildare, Kerry wwill be knocked out regardless- and with all due respect to Kildare, there's only one of those teams that represents a potential threat to Dublin in an All Ireland final.

Moreover, why in the name of God would I risk injuries in that game? Surely the logical thing to do for both reasons is to either concede a walkover, or else give a full game to the players in my squad that are effectively numbers 21-35. Are we ready for the riots that would ensue when that happens?

Yet another reason why round robins don't and won't work in our championship. Remember there used to be one in the hurling championship after you got knocked out of your provincial championship and they had to get rid of it due to lack of interest and teams qualifying out of it after loosing two games? Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. CPA have a proposal they are ready to bring forward apparently, very interested to see what they have come up with.
Westmeath - Home of the Christy Ring Cup...

Zulu

Bottom line is that what we have isn't working so whatever about the weaknesses of a round robin it's worth experimenting with until we are willing to grasp the nettle and make real changes.

Croí na hÉireann

Problem with that is we have to hold on to the nettle for three years now. And it'll be the clubs and the weaker counties, the 99.9%, that will feel the sting for three more years than they have to. Short sighted and dollar orientated.
Westmeath - Home of the Christy Ring Cup...

Syferus

Quote from: Zulu on April 05, 2017, 11:47:45 AM
Bottom line is that what we have isn't working so whatever about the weaknesses of a round robin it's worth experimenting with until we are willing to grasp the nettle and make real changes.

The current system works better only if your only concern is the bank balance of the GAA. Tell clubs and counties that aren't Dublin or Mayo or Kerry it offers them any advantage or improvement.

I do wonder sometimes about you, Zulu.