Author Topic: Catalan Independence Movement  (Read 6459 times)

bennydorano

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #165 on: October 28, 2017, 08:51:12 AM »
The default position of many leftists and Nationalists / Republicans is to support those looking Independence for no other reason than we can identify with their cause. I can't see past the fact that the situation has been manufactured by dodgy actions on the Independenistas side and the ham fistedness of Madrid, it doesn't feel like a natural progression  to Independence. If Independence does eventually come from this  it will be poisonous for all concerned.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2017, 03:39:14 PM by bennydorano »

vallankumous

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #166 on: October 28, 2017, 08:58:34 AM »
The default position of many leftists and Nationalists / Republicans is to support those looking Independence for no other reason than we can identify with their cause. I can't see past the fact that the situation has been manufactured by dodgy actions on the Independenistas side and the ham fistedness of Madrid, it doesn't feel like a natural progression  to Independence. If Independence does eventually come from this  it will be posinious for all concerned.


Most Irish Nationalists and Republicans want unity which is the opposite of independence. I don't hear anyone arguing fr Independence in Ireland.

It's a common misconception as is putting a slash between Nationalist and Republican as if they might be the same thing.

Rossfan

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #167 on: October 28, 2017, 09:25:39 AM »
How many Nationalists want a Monarchy?
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vallankumous

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #168 on: October 28, 2017, 09:56:26 AM »
How many Nationalists want a Monarchy?

Millions of British Nationalists including those in Ireland.

I don't want a Monarchy yet I'm not a Nationalist.

manfromdelmonte

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #169 on: October 28, 2017, 10:15:51 AM »
How many Nationalists want a Monarchy?

Millions of British Nationalists including those in Ireland.

I don't want a Monarchy yet I'm not a Nationalist.
are they not royalists?

vallankumous

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #170 on: October 28, 2017, 10:19:23 AM »


are they not royalists?

They are both but that does not make both things the same.

sid waddell

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #171 on: October 28, 2017, 12:29:34 PM »
The default position of many leftists and Nationalists / Republicans is to support those looking Independence for no other reason than we can identify with their cause. I can't see past the fact that the situation has been manufactured by dodgy actions on the Independenistas side and the ham fistedness of Madrid, it doesn't feel like a natural progression  to Independence. If Independence does eventually come from this  it will be posinious for all concerned.
One could quite easily argue that the situation which led to the creation of the Irish Free State was manufactured by much "dodgier" actions on the "Independistas" side than have occurred in Catalonia, as well as "ham-fistedness" on the British side.

"It didn't feel like a natural progression to independence."

"Independence was poisonous for all concerned."

J70

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #172 on: October 28, 2017, 12:36:20 PM »
The default position of many leftists and Nationalists / Republicans is to support those looking Independence for no other reason than we can identify with their cause. I can't see past the fact that the situation has been manufactured by dodgy actions on the Independenistas side and the ham fistedness of Madrid, it doesn't feel like a natural progression  to Independence. If Independence does eventually come from this  it will be posinious for all concerned.


Most Irish Nationalists and Republicans want unity which is the opposite of independence. I don't hear anyone arguing fr Independence in Ireland.

It's a common misconception as is putting a slash between Nationalist and Republican as if they might be the same thing.

I think he is equating sympathy for Catalan independence with pre- and post-partition longing for independence from Britain. “Escape” from Spain being equivalent to escape from the UK. Irish unity, by necessity, requires independence of the remaining six counties given that rejoining the UK is not an option.

gallsman

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #173 on: October 28, 2017, 01:18:02 PM »
Not really sure what to say. Puigdemont's move took me by surprise until this morning. Genuinely didn't think he'd do it. It's all still just posturing for now - what the invocation of 155 will actually mean in reality remains to be seen.

I presume Rajoy will push ahead and look to arrest Puigdemont and the likes of Junqueras and Forcadell. How that happens will be very interesting as I imagine they won't be going or be let go lightly. How the Mossos behave will be telling.

One thing for everyone to bear in mind is that the separatist collation in power in Catalunya is made up of several parties from various political slants with no reason to trust or align with one another apart from their Catalan nationalism. Given the various stresses and pressures they'll be under, depending on how direct role goes, that coalition could begin to fracture.

This is no different than any independence movement.
It's only a problem after you win.

Not really. Catalan nationalists haven't won anything yet. If Rajoy's planned elections go ahead, you could see the coalition fracturing somewhat as they all return to party politics.
"Never mind your why. Why ain't in your repetoire no more n***a"

bennydorano

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #174 on: October 28, 2017, 03:47:32 PM »
The default position of many leftists and Nationalists / Republicans is to support those looking Independence for no other reason than we can identify with their cause. I can't see past the fact that the situation has been manufactured by dodgy actions on the Independenistas side and the ham fistedness of Madrid, it doesn't feel like a natural progression  to Independence. If Independence does eventually come from this  it will be posinious for all concerned.
One could quite easily argue that the situation which led to the creation of the Irish Free State was manufactured by much "dodgier" actions on the "Independistas" side than have occurred in Catalonia, as well as "ham-fistedness" on the British side.

"It didn't feel like a natural progression to independence."

"Independence was poisonous for all concerned."
1916 was totally unwarranted and gained restrospective acceptance. Ireland had at least the denial of Home Rule as a contributing factor. Catalonia isn't in the same situation at all. I'm sure they're all wondering how they've arrived at the situation they find themselves in. Mayhem.

sid waddell

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #175 on: October 28, 2017, 05:13:06 PM »
The default position of many leftists and Nationalists / Republicans is to support those looking Independence for no other reason than we can identify with their cause. I can't see past the fact that the situation has been manufactured by dodgy actions on the Independenistas side and the ham fistedness of Madrid, it doesn't feel like a natural progression  to Independence. If Independence does eventually come from this  it will be posinious for all concerned.
One could quite easily argue that the situation which led to the creation of the Irish Free State was manufactured by much "dodgier" actions on the "Independistas" side than have occurred in Catalonia, as well as "ham-fistedness" on the British side.

"It didn't feel like a natural progression to independence."

"Independence was poisonous for all concerned."
1916 was totally unwarranted and gained restrospective acceptance. Ireland had at least the denial of Home Rule as a contributing factor. Catalonia isn't in the same situation at all. I'm sure they're all wondering how they've arrived at the situation they find themselves in. Mayhem.
Spain has denied Catalonia self-determination. The situations are actually very similar. The Quebec and Scotland referendums provide a model for how to deal with such a situation. Spain has point blank refused to consider such a referendum.

What happened in Ireland from 1912 to 1922 rather better fits the definition of the term "mayhem" than what is happening in Catalonia at the moment.

But the creation of the vast majority of nation states arose from upheaval and/or resulted in some form of upheaval. That's the nature of such things.


bennydorano

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #176 on: October 29, 2017, 05:48:50 PM »
It'll be interesting to see what happens if pro-Independence parties are returned in increased numbers in the December polls. The Independenistas should rally their supporters rather than snub the election, with an increased pro-independence vote the likelihood of an authorised Constitutional Referendum has to increase.