Westminster Election 12th December 2019

[Applesisapples]

It's easy to forget that there was a point in time when only for the catholic education sector catholics in NI would not have been educated and they weren't fully funded to the 70's.

An interesting point of history but of zero relevance to how best to educate and look after our society today

Not saying that but in the midst of all the criticism on here re that sector we need to remember that was it not for it many like myself would never have been able to go to University.

[michaelg]

A border poll is far down the list of things that need to happen between now an Irish reunification. Higher on the list is the desegregation of society in the north along religious lines, but I don't see a whole lot of progress being made on that front. SF have had the education portfolio for years and were able to scrap the grammar school system over the objections of recalcitrant people who wanted to retain selection, but don't seem to have the same eagerness for scrapping the unacceptable practice of keeping school kids segregated by religion until they go to the tech or go to Uni.

In fact SF's business model seems to be "complain about how unfairly treated we are by the evil Brits and that should keep the votes coming in." They'll probably spend the next decade banging on about why we need a border poll now and how unreasonable the Brits are for not providing one.

Ahh the magic bullet of integrated education.
Will these schools teach Irish history, Gaelige, do gaelic games?

Yes

No.
Integrated education is a fantastic idea, however, it is not universally implemented in the same way.
In my experience of it, there was no irish history, Irish language or gaelic games. However, there were Ulster Scotts classes, Badminton, soccer and table tennis.
In a school primarily staffed by Catholic Staff, with Protestant management. A primarily catholic intake at that time - and kids not getting places as there were too many catholics. Quite a few Protestant families complaining about the lack of Gaelic/Irish as they wanted there kids to experience something they felt they couldn't get elsewhere and also quite a few protestant families complaining when a teacher wore a gaelic top to a sponsored walk fund raiser.
The quality of education was also not what either the state or catholic schools (primary schools) as hardly anyone sat or had the ability to sit the transfer test.
No-one was happy with the level of integration, or lack thereof, in the integrated school I have experience of.

From what I have seen of it, Integrated education will only work if the management, staff and families who send their kids to these schools live and breath and integrated ethos. Staff, IMO, integrated schools are only there as they couldn't get a job in a school from their respective tradition. In many cases, kids in the schools are the same, though, there is a sizeable number of mixed marriages with kids in integrated schools.

I know I've gone on a bit of a rant there on Integrated Education, but it galls me to hear so much spouted about the virtues of Integrated Education when the realities don't really live up to the expectations.

Can't believe you could get so irked about a  spot of badmington and table tennis!  Surely the main virtue of integrated is that young people are being educated together from an early age, building life long friendships and realising that the folk from the other "community" don't have two heads.

Good point.  Clearly he has an issue with Badminton and Table Tennis.

In fact, you know what would be a good idea.  We should ignore everything else he has said and focus on his irrational hatred for these sports.

The sports young people play at school is not the be all and end all.  I was merely pointing out that sharing a classroom from an early age with people from a different background is the main benefit of integrated education.

Please drop the pretence that you were being genuine.  Below is the list of issues he had with the school.  You said it was 'badmington' and tennis.

No Irish history

No Irish language

No Gaelic Games

Protestant families complaining about the lack of Gaelic/Irish as they wanted there kids to experience something they felt they couldn't get elsewhere

Kids not getting places as there were too many catholics

Protestant families complaining when a teacher wore a gaelic top to a sponsored walk fund raiser

The quality of education was not what either the state or catholic schools (primary schools) provided

Hardly anyone sat or had the ability to sit the transfer test

No-one was happy with the level of integration

Do you think that the list above is representative of all integrated schools?  The point that I made (twice) is that there is huge benefit in young people in this country being educated together.  Not sure why you would accuse of me of not being genuine in making the fairly obvious point above.   

[Rossfan]

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/ff-td-united-ireland-could-celebrate-the-twelfth-and-rejoin-commonwealth-38795028.html

Shameful reaction from the Blueshirt Bolx.

[RadioGAAGAA]

Splitting classes based on ability can work. Matching the pace of work to the ability of the child in the subject can work. Name 1 outright grammar school that does either?

They don't necessarily have to as the 11+ has already done much of the splitting for them.

Remove the 11+ and suddenly you are faced with a much wider gap between top and bottom within the one class. With the result that many at the upper end will be slowed to a speed nearer the slowest in the "herd".

In the global economy what skills does NI need to compete? Do grammar schools provide these skills?

Are you f**king serious?

I suppose all those engineering jobs in Bombardier or those IT jobs are given to folks that can't add.

You aren't fit for an engineer degree if you cannot tackle sums.

Outline the benefits as you see them of doing a single exam at 10 years old, hinging everything on the result

Everything doesn't hinge on the result. They still have the opportunity to do their GCSEs and A-levels.

If you believe everything hinges on the result then you are acknowledging that the presence of stupider kids in the same class slows the development of said smarter kid.

and putting the child in school A where they are taught at a "grammar pace" but don't have the ability at say 15 of the kid that didn't do the test or didn't perform to their ability in it or was sick on the day but then exhibited or developed the ability after the age of 10?

You railing against the performance of kids within secondary schools is acknowledging the impact that a slower pace of lesson has on said kid.

Are you saying that you have thought about it and cannot think of a better system that grammar schools?

If I had my way - it would be quite a substantial departure from now - which is not realistic as no-one in charge wants to grasp the nettle.


I would suggest breaking up second level education into lower and upper schools - and have them exclusively deal within each age band (separated sites).


Lower runs from 12-14 years old (inclusive) - key stage 3 essentially. The number of kids within each year of the school (given that it is only 3 years) is large enough to allow effective streamlining and preserving a high pace for the smarter children.  i.e. you might have 8-10 classes per year.


Upper "school" runs from 15-18 - and is not purely academic.
Those that are more practical than academic would go to technical colleges (where they would do a few GCSEs, including maths & english alongside more practical subjects - i.e. plumbing/sparking/etc)
Those that are more academic than practical would go to a more conventional school, where they would sit a high number of GCSEs & then on to A-levels.



So there would be no 11+, there is sufficient pacing given to lessons across the ability range of children - and kids aren't wasting their time at 15-16 years old doing stuff they have no interest in or need to know.

[BennyCake]

Don't knock an extra days leave on the twelfth. Sure you can join the rest of us in bundoran! 

[RadioGAAGAA]

Over many decades I have seen enough government and govt agency studies to be very suspicious of what they conclude and advise.

Have you been able to conclude that the presence of a motorway has reduced the journey time from Dublin to Belfast to less than 2 hours rather than 5?

Or are you suspicious of your watch?

[RadioGAAGAA]

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/ff-td-united-ireland-could-celebrate-the-twelfth-and-rejoin-commonwealth-38795028.html

Shameful reaction from the Bkushirt Bolx.

I can only see the first few lines of it - but that is the kind of conversation that needs to be had.

Having the 12th as a public holiday is not a problem for me if it means a peaceful and prosperous UI... indeed I'd be amazed if anyone had objections to it. Like it or not - the Battle of the Boyne is one of enormous significance to the history of this island.

[Denn Forever]

Choc ices 3 for a pound

[Rossfan]

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/ff-td-united-ireland-could-celebrate-the-twelfth-and-rejoin-commonwealth-38795028.html

Shameful reaction from the Bkushirt Bolx.

I can only see the first few lines of it - but that is the kind of conversation that needs to be had.

Having the 12th as a public holiday is not a problem for me if it means a peaceful and prosperous UI... indeed I'd be amazed if anyone had objections to it. Like it or not - the Battle of the Boyne is one of enormous significance to the history of this island.

He resurrected an old comment by Albert Reynolds about reserving 30% of cabinet posts for Unionists.
Also that the Irish Government should be preparing plans for what a UI might look like.
FG Senator Richmond said the comments were reckless given the uncertainty caused by Brexit.

[Eamonnca1]

My response to the old "integrated education is not a panacea" trope is as follows:

Segregated education is not a panacea either.

If integrated schools are providing lower quality education then that's an argument for giving them more funding so they can attract better management and better teachers. The work they do is too important to be relegated to the bottom of the priority list. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't CCMS schools funded partly by the state? If that's the case then it represents a large transfer of public money to a private institution to further its private goals of brainwashing children into a particular belief system, as well as deepening divisions. Utter madness.

You can't take down the peace walls until kids go to school together.

Another old cop-out I used to hear all the time was that CCMS schools "teach children to respect people of different faiths." What a load of cobblers. The ones lobbing petrol bombs in Kilwilkee over the years all went to CCMS schools. Respect for people is not something you learn in lessons from a book. You learn it between lessons. In the corridors. In the playground. Waiting for the school bus. On the school bus. In the cafeteria. You build relationships and grow up together with people from diverse backgrounds, that's where you learn the most, not by listening to some nun droning on for half an hour about how we should be nice to them "up to no good" protestants.

That's a very narrow view, in my opinion. Respect for people has to be taught at home, school shouldn't bear the full responsibility. You reference Kilwilkee in a way that almost suggests the CCMS schools were responsible, I'd argue that it was more likely the responsibility lay with the parents and families who were probably out doing the same thing.
Were I grew up was a rural area and I attended a CCMS school. In that area it was predominantly Catholic, but there was a sizeable Protestant minority. In my memory, I never once remember any issues between the two communities. Farming was the priority, not politics. Farmers of one persuasion regularly helped farmers of the other persuasion, and still do. In fact, a cross community group was set up and did a lot for the area.
Integrated education is an ideal. It cannot work without the same ethos being applied in the homes of staff and students.

CCMS do get funding from the education authority, but so does the Integrated sector through NICIE, and the Irish Medium schools through an organisation that I can't remember the name of.
In terms of setup, there may not be much difference between the two (though I'm no expert here).

In terms of attracting higher quality staff by giving them more funding....that's not possible. As all teachers and Principles here are civil servants and get paid on a scale. The same scale across all schools. The only way it can be increased is by government, and if its increased for one sector its increased to all.
One of the big issues I've seen in staffing in integrated schools is that once in the integrated system, it is very difficult for a teacher to gain employment in CCMS or state schools at a later point. Not impossible, but certainly there seems to be very few teachers moving out of the integrated sector.

This reminds me of conservative arguments against sex education in schools. "It should be taught in the home!" they say. Great. What if it's not taught in the home?  In that case if it's not taught in the schools then it's not taught at all. Same goes for respect for people from different backgrounds.

The segregation of society in the north is hardly the poster child for community relations. Segregated education has been a failure. It's long past time to move on past it.

[five points]

Over many decades I have seen enough government and govt agency studies to be very suspicious of what they conclude and advise.

Have you been able to conclude that the presence of a motorway has reduced the journey time from Dublin to Belfast to less than 2 hours rather than 5?

Or are you suspicious of your watch?

If those are the best analogies you can come up with, you don't know the meaning of the word.

If you want to believe every bit of self-serving balderdash you read in an official report, that ain't my problem.

[Eamonnca1]

Over many decades I have seen enough government and govt agency studies to be very suspicious of what they conclude and advise.

Have you been able to conclude that the presence of a motorway has reduced the journey time from Dublin to Belfast to less than 2 hours rather than 5?

Or are you suspicious of your watch?

If those are the best analogies you can come up with, you don't know the meaning of the word.

If you want to believe every bit of self-serving balderdash you read in an official report, that ain't my problem.

Great bit of point-missing. Thanks to the EU there's now a motorway from Newry to Dublin. That's kind of a big deal. Unless you're too young to remember what a laborious journey it used to be, driving to Dublin from the north.

[Franko]

A border poll is far down the list of things that need to happen between now an Irish reunification. Higher on the list is the desegregation of society in the north along religious lines, but I don't see a whole lot of progress being made on that front. SF have had the education portfolio for years and were able to scrap the grammar school system over the objections of recalcitrant people who wanted to retain selection, but don't seem to have the same eagerness for scrapping the unacceptable practice of keeping school kids segregated by religion until they go to the tech or go to Uni.

In fact SF's business model seems to be "complain about how unfairly treated we are by the evil Brits and that should keep the votes coming in." They'll probably spend the next decade banging on about why we need a border poll now and how unreasonable the Brits are for not providing one.

Ahh the magic bullet of integrated education.
Will these schools teach Irish history, Gaelige, do gaelic games?

Yes

No.
Integrated education is a fantastic idea, however, it is not universally implemented in the same way.
In my experience of it, there was no irish history, Irish language or gaelic games. However, there were Ulster Scotts classes, Badminton, soccer and table tennis.
In a school primarily staffed by Catholic Staff, with Protestant management. A primarily catholic intake at that time - and kids not getting places as there were too many catholics. Quite a few Protestant families complaining about the lack of Gaelic/Irish as they wanted there kids to experience something they felt they couldn't get elsewhere and also quite a few protestant families complaining when a teacher wore a gaelic top to a sponsored walk fund raiser.
The quality of education was also not what either the state or catholic schools (primary schools) as hardly anyone sat or had the ability to sit the transfer test.
No-one was happy with the level of integration, or lack thereof, in the integrated school I have experience of.

From what I have seen of it, Integrated education will only work if the management, staff and families who send their kids to these schools live and breath and integrated ethos. Staff, IMO, integrated schools are only there as they couldn't get a job in a school from their respective tradition. In many cases, kids in the schools are the same, though, there is a sizeable number of mixed marriages with kids in integrated schools.

I know I've gone on a bit of a rant there on Integrated Education, but it galls me to hear so much spouted about the virtues of Integrated Education when the realities don't really live up to the expectations.

Can't believe you could get so irked about a  spot of badmington and table tennis!  Surely the main virtue of integrated is that young people are being educated together from an early age, building life long friendships and realising that the folk from the other "community" don't have two heads.

Good point.  Clearly he has an issue with Badminton and Table Tennis.

In fact, you know what would be a good idea.  We should ignore everything else he has said and focus on his irrational hatred for these sports.

The sports young people play at school is not the be all and end all.  I was merely pointing out that sharing a classroom from an early age with people from a different background is the main benefit of integrated education.

Please drop the pretence that you were being genuine.  Below is the list of issues he had with the school.  You said it was 'badmington' and tennis.

No Irish history

No Irish language

No Gaelic Games

Protestant families complaining about the lack of Gaelic/Irish as they wanted there kids to experience something they felt they couldn't get elsewhere

Kids not getting places as there were too many catholics

Protestant families complaining when a teacher wore a gaelic top to a sponsored walk fund raiser

The quality of education was not what either the state or catholic schools (primary schools) provided

Hardly anyone sat or had the ability to sit the transfer test

No-one was happy with the level of integration

Do you think that the list above is representative of all integrated schools?  The point that I made (twice) is that there is huge benefit in young people in this country being educated together.  Not sure why you would accuse of me of not being genuine in making the fairly obvious point above.   

Three reasons;

You started your post with a snide remark.

You didn't acknowledge any of the genuine points he had brought up and attempted to belittle the concerns

He literally started his post by saying that integrated education was a fantastic idea (which I also happen to agree with), so not sure why a genuine person would have felt the need to agree (twice) but in a curiously confrontational manner.

Cheers

[michaelg]

A border poll is far down the list of things that need to happen between now an Irish reunification. Higher on the list is the desegregation of society in the north along religious lines, but I don't see a whole lot of progress being made on that front. SF have had the education portfolio for years and were able to scrap the grammar school system over the objections of recalcitrant people who wanted to retain selection, but don't seem to have the same eagerness for scrapping the unacceptable practice of keeping school kids segregated by religion until they go to the tech or go to Uni.

In fact SF's business model seems to be "complain about how unfairly treated we are by the evil Brits and that should keep the votes coming in." They'll probably spend the next decade banging on about why we need a border poll now and how unreasonable the Brits are for not providing one.

Ahh the magic bullet of integrated education.
Will these schools teach Irish history, Gaelige, do gaelic games?

Yes

No.
Integrated education is a fantastic idea, however, it is not universally implemented in the same way.
In my experience of it, there was no irish history, Irish language or gaelic games. However, there were Ulster Scotts classes, Badminton, soccer and table tennis.
In a school primarily staffed by Catholic Staff, with Protestant management. A primarily catholic intake at that time - and kids not getting places as there were too many catholics. Quite a few Protestant families complaining about the lack of Gaelic/Irish as they wanted there kids to experience something they felt they couldn't get elsewhere and also quite a few protestant families complaining when a teacher wore a gaelic top to a sponsored walk fund raiser.
The quality of education was also not what either the state or catholic schools (primary schools) as hardly anyone sat or had the ability to sit the transfer test.
No-one was happy with the level of integration, or lack thereof, in the integrated school I have experience of.

From what I have seen of it, Integrated education will only work if the management, staff and families who send their kids to these schools live and breath and integrated ethos. Staff, IMO, integrated schools are only there as they couldn't get a job in a school from their respective tradition. In many cases, kids in the schools are the same, though, there is a sizeable number of mixed marriages with kids in integrated schools.

I know I've gone on a bit of a rant there on Integrated Education, but it galls me to hear so much spouted about the virtues of Integrated Education when the realities don't really live up to the expectations.

Can't believe you could get so irked about a  spot of badmington and table tennis!  Surely the main virtue of integrated is that young people are being educated together from an early age, building life long friendships and realising that the folk from the other "community" don't have two heads.

Good point.  Clearly he has an issue with Badminton and Table Tennis.

In fact, you know what would be a good idea.  We should ignore everything else he has said and focus on his irrational hatred for these sports.

The sports young people play at school is not the be all and end all.  I was merely pointing out that sharing a classroom from an early age with people from a different background is the main benefit of integrated education.

Please drop the pretence that you were being genuine.  Below is the list of issues he had with the school.  You said it was 'badmington' and tennis.

No Irish history

No Irish language

No Gaelic Games

Protestant families complaining about the lack of Gaelic/Irish as they wanted there kids to experience something they felt they couldn't get elsewhere

Kids not getting places as there were too many catholics

Protestant families complaining when a teacher wore a gaelic top to a sponsored walk fund raiser

The quality of education was not what either the state or catholic schools (primary schools) provided

Hardly anyone sat or had the ability to sit the transfer test

No-one was happy with the level of integration

Do you think that the list above is representative of all integrated schools?  The point that I made (twice) is that there is huge benefit in young people in this country being educated together.  Not sure why you would accuse of me of not being genuine in making the fairly obvious point above.   

Three reasons;

You started your post with a snide remark.

You didn't acknowledge any of the genuine points he had brought up and attempted to belittle the concerns

He literally started his post by saying that integrated education was a fantastic idea (which I also happen to agree with), so not sure why a genuine person would have felt the need to agree (twice) but in a curiously confrontational manner.

Cheers

Great stuff. At least we are all in agreement.

[Franko]

Apology accepted.