‘The Provinces’: A shining jewel in the GAA crown

[ziggysego]

By Mark Conway
04/11/09

Does the provincial system help or hinder GAA wellbeing? The answer depends on how you measure that 'wellbeing' in the first place.

The very limited measure of senior All-Irelands suggests the provincial system historically favoured Kerry footballers and Cork, Kilkenny, and Tipperary hurlers.

In 1975, for instance, Kerry got a bye to the Munster final to beat a hurling-focused Cork. Next came Sligo, giddy from a first Connacht title in 47 years. Dublin fell in the final, so three matches produced Kerry's 23rd All-Ireland (Galway also won a three-game All-Ireland 10 years earlier in 1965).

Meanwhile, in Ulster, Derry had to beat Armagh, Monaghan, and Down just to win their third Ulster title.

Imbalanced? Undoubtedly.

But other, bigger, imbalances existed.

For much of the northern state's history, Ulster gaels had concerns beyond winning football titles. However, as things improved socially and economically, the football graph rose too. The 1950s saw Armagh win their second Ulster SFC and Tyrone, Derry, and Down win their first. Donegal's breakthrough came in 1972.

In the 1960s/early '70s, All-Ireland, senior, minor, U21, junior, colleges, vocational, university, Railway Cup, and NFL titles all headed north. The system worked.

Cue more conflict and we departed the inter-county honours scene, re-emerging in style once things settled in the 1990s. In the week of Derry's 1975 All-Ireland semi-final, nine people died here, including two Derry supporters murdered returning from Dublin. Those tragedies hindered us much more than Kerry's 'easy' campaign helped them.

The 'back-door' now makes the All-Ireland series more equitable, though it still favours Kerry. One win puts them in the last 12. But if Kerry now win All-Irelands, it's because they're the best team. Ditto Kilkenny. That's fact.

Anyway, those All-Irelands are only one narrow measure of GAA success. Success should be measured against what you set out to achieve in the first place.

What does the GAA set out to achieve? Do we play gaelic games just to present two inter-county cups every September? Or are we about much more?

My GAA organises gaelic games to energise communities; to give people a focus; to cherish culture and heritage; to foster positive pride in place and in Irishness; to make us feel good about ourselves. All-Irelands may be the icing, but they're not the cake.

Place, however, is central to the GAA cake. The starter when first meeting a GAA person is invariably: 'Where are you from?; Our weakness in the cities unquestionably stems from the lack of a GAA 'attachment-to-place' there. Our provinces represent place, heritage, and belonging. Remove them and you mortally wound the GAA.

Of course, our provincial system is inequitable. But sure so is life.

If we dismantle the provinces to create greater equity, then where stand our counties?

What's equitable about Dublin (1,200,000 people) against Longford (34,000)? Or Cork (480,000) against Tyrone (110,000)? Evidence suggests the optimum GAA county population is 100,000/120,000. So why not go for 40/50 new 'counties' that could compete "equitably"?

But that straightaway eliminates Carlow, Cavan, Fermanagh, Kilkenny, Laois, Longford, Monaghan, Offaly, Roscommon, Sligo and Westmeath because they're below the "equitable optimum". Impossible? Well, with talk of scrapping provinces and introducing "Champions League-style" GAA formats, we should be fearful. First they came for the provinces, then they came for� ?

What if we had an open draw and Tyrone drew Kerry? What kind of event would we actually have in Healy Park? How many Kerry people would travel the 250/300 miles? What would it improve? Where would our inter-county, minor, U21, colleges, and club championships sit? Maybe they don't count. Babies and bathwater come to mind.

The GAA needs a greater, not a lesser provincial focus. We waste time, effort and money flirting with Australians who don't give a XXXX about us. Meanwhile, we betray a gaelic heritage cornerstone – the provinces – whilst professional rugby gleefully grabs those provincial clothes. Our treatment of the inter-provincials is shameful. Semi-finals hidden away on winter Saturdays and finals played in GAA hot-beds like Abu Dhabi, Rome and Paris.

Like other Ulster counties, Tyrone have built from scratch, through decades of unrelenting hard work by dedicated, committed people. Tyrone now win All-Irelands, but work equally hard at the full GAA portfolio.

Northern turmoil held Tyrone back.

But Ulster GAA structures helped propel Tyrone forward. County chairman Pat Darcy talks how, in the last century, Kerry won 31 All-Irelands to Tyrone's none; this century's 'score' is 5-3. Counting underage, it's 6-8.

Add in Tyrone's 13 rightly-prized Ulster titles and there's a message emerging. It's not what the system does to the county� it's what the county does within the system.

Thankfully, Ulster still fosters 'provincialism' to powerful effect. It's responsible for nearly all the best, progressive GAA work, including an unequalled coaching regime; Club Maith accreditation; floodlit, fit-for-purpose county grounds; Unionist outreach; health and wellbeing; strategic club support; ethnic engagement; a vibrant Scór; disability projects; the best GAA 125 programme; burnout research; schools coaches; internet streaming; partnership with the women's games; strategic plans for Ulster; its nine counties and two main cities; inner-city work; government partnerships; and robust marketing and promotion.

Unquestionably, our province facilitates real GAA success. It runs championships which people value, all nine counties reaching the SFC final since 2000 and seven winning it since the late 1980s. Council members even steward those games. Few governing bodies get their hands dirty like that. Ulster mightn't do firework displays, but it stands up for the GAA.

What's the alternative? Is 'bigger' better? No. Does RTE serve the GAA better than TG4? No. The Irish Independent better than the Irish News? No. Do we need centralised, remote GAA governance, interested only in the All-Ireland quarter-finals and beyond? No. Clubs and 'weaker' counties even more sidelined? No. Capitulation to TV and sponsors? No. Private companies within our governance? No. A 'price-of-everything-and-value-of-nothing' ethos? No.

No thanks. We've enough of those already. Let's promote instead that oul' imbalanced set-up that's done us proud for 125 years. In a boringly cloned world, differentiation's the thing. There should be no one-size-fits-all in the GAA.

Cúige Uladh abu!

Sourced Irish News

Great article. We're very lucky to have someone with as much foresight as Mark Conway within Tyrone and the GAA. I hope he gets a regular column in the Irish News.

[ONeill]

...says the Ulster GAA strategic advisor. I think Mark believes the abandonment of the provincial set up for senior football spells the end of the provinces themselves. They'll always be heartily embraced and needed for underage and club football as well as the likes of the McKenna, hurling, handball etc. Nothing should change in that regard if we did go down a CL type approach.

I cannot take Mark seriously - a man who walked out on Club Tyrone because he had lost interest in it as "for me the dynamic that drove Club Tyrone is no longer there. It's not there for me....the fundamental principle has changed.' Then walks back in again!

You either have principles or you don't. Just because his initial attempt to create a groundswell of support against the grants in 2007 failed doesn't mean you should back down on what you stand for. It wouldn't surprise me if he pens another article next year calling for provinces to be scrapped!

[ha ha derry]

In all fairness Mark has hit the spot with that article.

[The Forfeit Point]

brilliant article

[Ball Hopper]

Except Kerry did not get a bye in 1975...they played Tipperary in Clonmel in the Munster semi-final.

1980 was the year Kerry played only 3 games to win the title.

[Rois]

You either have principles or you don't. Just because his initial attempt to create a groundswell of support against the grants in 2007 failed doesn't mean you should back down on what you stand for. It wouldn't surprise me if he pens another article next year calling for provinces to be scrapped!

I have much more respect for someone who puts the good of the county and the sport ahead of his pride and comes back (by invitation) when he's needed more than ever for his (voluntary) skills.  Much better than sitting at home and moaning in perpetuity about the state of it. 

[ha ha derry]

Yeah Mark would be a doer not a talker.

[ONeill]

I have much more respect for someone who puts the good of the county and the sport ahead of his pride and comes back (by invitation) when he's needed more than ever for his (voluntary) skills.  Much better than sitting at home and moaning in perpetuity about the state of it.

That's a fair point but it sits uneasy with me. I felt that at the time his soundbites were unhelpful and had the potential to hurt Club Tyrone, the heartbeat of the Tyrone we take pride in today. To publically announce his departure because the ethos of CB had changed, coming from a man with such a vital role in its inception, was a bit like what he writes in the article ' Babies and bathwater come to mind.' For a short time initially I also questioned the value of membership until I realised that the principle of CT is simply not funding the Tyrone Senior football team.

[ha ha derry]

I have much more respect for someone who puts the good of the county and the sport ahead of his pride and comes back (by invitation) when he's needed more than ever for his (voluntary) skills.  Much better than sitting at home and moaning in perpetuity about the state of it.

That's a fair point but it sits uneasy with me. I felt that at the time his soundbites were unhelpful and had the potential to hurt Club Tyrone, the heartbeat of the Tyrone we take pride in today. To publically announce his departure because the ethos of CB had changed, coming from a man with such a vital role in its inception, was a bit like what he writes in the article ' Babies and bathwater come to mind.' For a short time initially I also questioned the value of membership until I realised that the principle of CT is simply not funding the Tyrone Senior football team.

Club Tyrone are a good example of all that is good in the GAA

[Tubberman]

That article seems to be scaremongering to me. It seems to suggest that if you change from a provincial system, you remove the whole ethos of the GAA, which is completely untrue IMO.

My GAA organises gaelic games to energise communities; to give people a focus; to cherish culture and heritage; to foster positive pride in place and in Irishness; to make us feel good about ourselves. All-Irelands may be the icing, but they're not the cake.

I don't see how this would be affected.

Place, however, is central to the GAA cake. The starter when first meeting a GAA person is invariably: 'Where are you from?; Our weakness in the cities unquestionably stems from the lack of a GAA 'attachment-to-place' there. Our provinces represent place, heritage, and belonging. Remove them and you mortally wound the GAA.

I don't know about the rest of ye, but when I'm asked where I'm from, I reply "Ballintubber" or "Mayo". I don't think I've ever replied "Connacht". The 32 counties would still be taking part if the provincial system was scrapped, so I don't see much of a change there.

If we dismantle the provinces to create greater equity, then where stand our counties?

What's equitable about Dublin (1,200,000 people) against Longford (34,000)? Or Cork (480,000) against Tyrone (110,000)? Evidence suggests the optimum GAA county population is 100,000/120,000. So why not go for 40/50 new 'counties' that could compete "equitably"?

But that straightaway eliminates Carlow, Cavan, Fermanagh, Kilkenny, Laois, Longford, Monaghan, Offaly, Roscommon, Sligo and Westmeath because they're below the "equitable optimum". Impossible? Well, with talk of scrapping provinces and introducing "Champions League-style" GAA formats, we should be fearful. First they came for the provinces, then they came for� ?

What? Complete scaremongering. To suggest changing from provincial setup to equitable groups is somehow akin to scrapping the traditional county structure is absolute rubbish.

What if we had an open draw and Tyrone drew Kerry? What kind of event would we actually have in Healy Park? How many Kerry people would travel the 250/300 miles? What would it improve? Where would our inter-county, minor, U21, colleges, and club championships sit? Maybe they don't count. Babies and bathwater come to mind.

There probably wouldn't be full houses at a lot of games, but then, I thought one of his points was that the GAA shouldn't be always looking at the balance sheet  It would bring a freshness to the championship, and provde a more level playing field for teams.
Who said club and underage inter-county matches should be disregarded? Obviously the whole schedule would have to be examined to see if it's feasible, but that's hardly a reason to dismiss the idea out-of-hand.

The GAA needs a greater, not a lesser provincial focus. We waste time, effort and money flirting with Australians who don't give a XXXX about us. Meanwhile, we betray a gaelic heritage cornerstone – the provinces – whilst professional rugby gleefully grabs those provincial clothes. Our treatment of the inter-provincials is shameful. Semi-finals hidden away on winter Saturdays and finals played in GAA hot-beds like Abu Dhabi, Rome and Paris.

Maybe without the provincial championships, the players and supporters might actually be more interested in seeing the old provincial teams again. If there was no Connacht championship for instance, you wouldn't see the same players every year, and perhaps the idea of a provincial Connacht team would seem more novel and interesting.

Like other Ulster counties, Tyrone have built from scratch, through decades of unrelenting hard work by dedicated, committed people. Tyrone now win All-Irelands, but work equally hard at the full GAA portfolio.

Northern turmoil held Tyrone back.

But Ulster GAA structures helped propel Tyrone forward. County chairman Pat Darcy talks how, in the last century, Kerry won 31 All-Irelands to Tyrone's none; this century's 'score' is 5-3. Counting underage, it's 6-8.

Add in Tyrone's 13 rightly-prized Ulster titles and there's a message emerging. It's not what the system does to the county� it's what the county does within the system.

Could Tyrone not continue to be successful without an Ulster Championship? Cavan/Monaghan/Fermanagh/Antrim for instance are also in Ulster - they haven't exactly been overwhelmed with silverware in recent years. Indeed, Monaghan
and Fermanagh's greatest achievements have come through the qualifier system where they faced non-Ulster teams. 

Thankfully, Ulster still fosters 'provincialism' to powerful effect. It's responsible for nearly all the best, progressive GAA work, including an unequalled coaching regime; Club Maith accreditation; floodlit, fit-for-purpose county grounds; Unionist outreach; health and wellbeing; strategic club support; ethnic engagement; a vibrant Scór; disability projects; the best GAA 125 programme; burnout research; schools coaches; internet streaming; partnership with the women's games; strategic plans for Ulster; its nine counties and two main cities; inner-city work; government partnerships; and robust marketing and promotion.

Well done. Does a move away from the provincial championships necessarily mean the disbandment of the provincial councils? I haven't seen that confirmed anywhere. Does a perceived threat of such a scenario mean that the concept of group stages should not be discussed or trialled?

What's the alternative? Is 'bigger' better? No. Does RTE serve the GAA better than TG4? No. The Irish Independent better than the Irish News? No. Do we need centralised, remote GAA governance, interested only in the All-Ireland quarter-finals and beyond? No. Clubs and 'weaker' counties even more sidelined? No. Capitulation to TV and sponsors? No. Private companies within our governance? No. A 'price-of-everything-and-value-of-nothing' ethos? No.

Capitulation to TV and sponsors!  Private companies lurking in the shadows pulling the strings!? Where is this guff coming from!?

[Zulu]

I'll give the man one thing, he does a 'won't somebody think of the children' argument like no other. He should be representing Ireland in the olympic long jump competition with the length of the leaps and bounds he has made it that article.

But that straightaway eliminates Carlow, Cavan, Fermanagh, Kilkenny, Laois, Longford, Monaghan, Offaly, Roscommon, Sligo and Westmeath because they're below the "equitable optimum". Impossible? Well, with talk of scrapping provinces and introducing "Champions League-style" GAA formats, we should be fearful. First they came for the provinces, then they came for� ?

Does he know any other ways of debating other than the 'if we give in on this where will it end?' type of scaremongering. While it is always good to hear differing opinions and a debate on this issue is required, it should be one couched in facts and reasonably logical assumptions. That article has little of either.

[INDIANA]

he makes some good points. The reality is a provincial title is a major thing for a lot of smaller counties and their only realistic chance of silverware. When attained it can help springboard these counties to bigger things.

But its the realms of fantasy if anyone thinks these counties would be capable of winning an all-ireland in a champions league system.  The stronger counties may want to abolish the provincial system but where does that leave these counties. Do we exclude these counties from the competition because they aren't of the required standard for a a champions league format.

For anyone who thinks a champions league will change the status quo should look at the soccer equivalent and see how many clubs from nowhere have won the competition. A champions league format will only suit the strong counties even more in my view.

[Hardy]

Yes, because the last thing we want is a system that properly reflects the relative merits of teams and makes it more likely that the best team actually wins it!

[Zulu]

he makes some good points. The reality is a provincial title is a major thing for a lot of smaller counties and their only realistic chance of silverware. When attained it can help springboard these counties to bigger things.

But its the realms of fantasy if anyone thinks these counties would be capable of winning an all-ireland in a champions league system.  The stronger counties may want to abolish the provincial system but where does that leave these counties. Do we exclude these counties from the competition because they aren't of the required standard for a a champions league format.

For anyone who thinks a champions league will change the status quo should look at the soccer equivalent and see how many clubs from nowhere have won the competition. A champions league format will only suit the strong counties even more in my view.

You know my view on the provincial championships but I'm not criticizing Conway's article on that basis. The reason I think his article is largely nonsense is because of the justifications he uses for his argument and the illogical assumptions he makes. He does his position no favours by putting forward such an ill-thought out argument.

[ziggysego]

Yes, because the last thing we want is a system that properly reflects the relative merits of teams and makes it more likely that the best team actually wins it!

How are weaker teams going to improve otherwises? Isn't this why Antrim Hurling are now in Leinster.