Joe Brolly

Started by randomtask, July 31, 2011, 05:28:31 PM

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Lar Naparka

Quote from: bigarsedkeeper on March 30, 2021, 01:10:59 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on March 30, 2021, 12:34:57 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 30, 2021, 11:13:23 AM
Sam you seem to have an obsession with "suck it up" ???
Is that your perception of " get on with life" while not letting bigots have their way.
Silver Hill's post is such a positive statement of how things are now and how things are heading for the Catholic/Nationalist Community in the 6 Cos.
Leave the negativity to DUPUDA and other backward looking extremists.
Definitely no offence meant here Sam but I think all shades of Nationalism in the north appear to have very short term and selective memories.
Who was responsible for initiating  discussions that lead to the GFA?
It all began when the then Taoiseach, Albert Reynolds,  succeeded in persuading Gerry Adams to sit down and talk- in secret I may add. The negotiations were slow and tortuous and it wasn't until Bertie Ahern became Taoiseach that Unionist spokesmen were persuaded/coerced to enter discussions.
Bertie played on his friendship with Tony Blair to  get him onside and he brought Unionists of all shades into the negotiations.
What about Bill Clinton? Who persuaded him to lend his support to the ongoing peace process and,no, it wasn't Sinn Fein!
Two Catholic priests and a Protestant clergymen were appointed as go-betweens - they didn't just pop out of the blue.  Other countries weighed in to assure the Prods that they'd act as guarantors that terms agreed at the talks would be honoured and a Canadian, John de Chastelain, was appointed to the chair. Canada didn't develop a benevolent interest in NI affairs overnight.

Finally, things got to the stage after thousand of hours of to-ing and fro-ing that Bertie Ahern won the confidence of Ian Paisley and knelt in prayer with him.
Paisley shook his hand and said he was a man of his word and so he proved to be.
You'd have no parity of esteem or a road map to unification without the orchestration of the Republic and that is simply undeniable.
I have yet to hear a Nationalist spokesperson acknowledge that fact.
On the other had, I see no great effort for moderate Nationalism to distance itself from the Free State jibers. Yet you resent the fact that southerners take an antagonistic  view of the Nationalist community.
How could it be otherwise when all we hear is coming from the likes of Angelo?

Surely you're not writing John Hume out of all of that and letting Bertie take all the credit?

Not all all.
I was concentrating on the role of the republic in orchestrating the peace process from start to finish.
Naturally Bertie didn't do it all on his own. It was Albert Reynolds who set the ball rolling and getting Adams interest but Hume took it from  there and did convince the Provos to commit to negotiations. But we  are talking about the part played by the south. in gaining  parity of esteem and in creating a road map  to unification. there has been no acknowledgement of this from those who wonder why we seem antagonistic.
Why Ross said about the boy with the radio is even more relevant now post- GFA.
Reasonable southerns despair of you ever shutting up and getting down to discussing anything at all with the Prods of a constructive nature.
Also, and this is crucial, moderate nationalists are making no effort to put distance between themselves and the minority than keepon moaning about everything done by the south.
Nil Carborundum Illegitemi

Lar Naparka

Quote from: 6th sam on March 30, 2021, 02:01:44 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 30, 2021, 11:13:23 AM
Sam you seem to have an obsession with "suck it up" ???
Is that your perception of " get on with life" while not letting bigots have their way.
Silver Hill's post is such a positive statement of how things are now and how things are heading for the Catholic/Nationalist Community in the 6 Cos.
Leave the negativity to DUPUDA and other backward looking extremists.

I think you'll agree from my posts over the years, that  I'm not a negative person , and I recognise the role of many in the South. I disagree with Angelo's aggressive approach, and Tbf I have got on with life ( though I haven't suffered as much as others) , but how do you propose we don't let bigots have their way? We criticise and confront  the DUP and we're accused of being cantankerous agitators....."you're all the same up there".
My solution as stated on many occasions is to focus on selling an all-island solution , to both sides of the border. This will have to include a British component or we run the risk of ~15% of the population of the island (British) being marginalised. Now as it stands ~15 % of the population of the island ( Irish in the north)  are currently marginalised, but apparently that's fair enough.
There are differences on both sides of the border and both could learn from each other, but this involves mutual respect and a willingness to listen, learn and show empathy.
The reason why I introduced the phrase "suck it up" is because that's what we have done for years, but   Leaving the EU and further economic deterioration here, is actually galling for me. I'm not asking for troops at the border , I'm not asking for economic sacrifices , I'm only asking for a recognition that the Irish in the North continue to live under the control of what many consider the most backward parties in the "developed world". It's bad enough having to put up with it, but when your fellow countrymen criticise you for challenging these dinosaurs with the "one's as bad as the other" accusation , it's offensive. That said, ironically  , I can understand why many of my friends and workmates would vote DUP, as they are the largest unionist party and are therefore viewed as best placed to maintain the union. What so-called "nationalists" ( don't like that word) , north and south have failed to do is present , cost , and sell an all-island alternative that respects all sides, and finally marginalises DUP bully boy tactics. The way to deal with bullies is to face up to them with a unified approach to marginalise them and hopefully change their ways. Unfortunately Some here appear happier , on the other hand to marginalise those who confront DUP behaviour .
I can appreciate all you say but from this side of the border, your voice can't be heard. Of course the Unionist mindset is the biggest obstacle to bringing about reconciliation but that's purely because of their weight in numbers.
Ireland, England and the rest of the civilised world were prepared to spend years trying to bring both sides together so do you honestly think they won't go the extra few yards to keep reconciliation talks on track?
If such talks get going, Arlene stans to lose more than Michelle as demographics are not in her favour. No doubt, you find 'themmuns' totally intractable but, from a distance, it seems, the shinners anyway to head butt and eye ball the enemy at every possible opportunity.
Leave it to the Brits to knock the Unionists into line.They did it before and would be quite happy to do so again.
BTW, Nationalists seem to take offence at being referred to as Nordies.Dunno what that means or what reason it offends nationalist. But can you understand why we take exception to the endless jibes about Free Staters?
Nil Carborundum Illegitemi

6th sam

#5807
Quote from: Lar Naparka on March 30, 2021, 02:43:10 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on March 30, 2021, 02:01:44 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 30, 2021, 11:13:23 AM
Sam you seem to have an obsession with "suck it up" ???
Is that your perception of " get on with life" while not letting bigots have their way.
Silver Hill's post is such a positive statement of how things are now and how things are heading for the Catholic/Nationalist Community in the 6 Cos.
Leave the negativity to DUPUDA and other backward looking extremists.

I think you'll agree from my posts over the years, that  I'm not a negative person , and I recognise the role of many in the South. I disagree with Angelo's aggressive approach, and Tbf I have got on with life ( though I haven't suffered as much as others) , but how do you propose we don't let bigots have their way? We criticise and confront  the DUP and we're accused of being cantankerous agitators....."you're all the same up there".
My solution as stated on many occasions is to focus on selling an all-island solution , to both sides of the border. This will have to include a British component or we run the risk of ~15% of the population of the island (British) being marginalised. Now as it stands ~15 % of the population of the island ( Irish in the north)  are currently marginalised, but apparently that's fair enough.
There are differences on both sides of the border and both could learn from each other, but this involves mutual respect and a willingness to listen, learn and show empathy.
The reason why I introduced the phrase "suck it up" is because that's what we have done for years, but   Leaving the EU and further economic deterioration here, is actually galling for me. I'm not asking for troops at the border , I'm not asking for economic sacrifices , I'm only asking for a recognition that the Irish in the North continue to live under the control of what many consider the most backward parties in the "developed world". It's bad enough having to put up with it, but when your fellow countrymen criticise you for challenging these dinosaurs with the "one's as bad as the other" accusation , it's offensive. That said, ironically  , I can understand why many of my friends and workmates would vote DUP, as they are the largest unionist party and are therefore viewed as best placed to maintain the union. What so-called "nationalists" ( don't like that word) , north and south have failed to do is present , cost , and sell an all-island alternative that respects all sides, and finally marginalises DUP bully boy tactics. The way to deal with bullies is to face up to them with a unified approach to marginalise them and hopefully change their ways. Unfortunately Some here appear happier , on the other hand to marginalise those who confront DUP behaviour .
I can appreciate all you say but from this side of the border, your voice can't be heard. Of course the Unionist mindset is the biggest obstacle to bringing about reconciliation but that's purely because of their weight in numbers.
Ireland, England and the rest of the civilised world were prepared to spend years trying to bring both sides together so do you honestly think they won't go the extra few yards to keep reconciliation talks on track?
If such talks get going, Arlene stans to lose more than Michelle as demographics are not in her favour. No doubt, you find 'themmuns' totally intractable but, from a distance, it seems, the shinners anyway to head butt and eye ball the enemy at every possible opportunity.
Leave it to the Brits to knock the Unionists into line.They did it before and would be quite happy to do so again.
BTW, Nationalists seem to take offence at being referred to as Nordies.Dunno what that means or what reason it offends nationalist. But can you understand why we take exception to the endless jibes about Free Staters?

Totally agree re "free staters" , I find it an offensive term. I like the term Nordies Tbf , I view it as a badge of honour .
I agree that the methods must be about persuasion as opposed to confrontation for confrontation's sake but many in the South seem to have little understanding or interest in northern affairs but are happy to "throw their oar in", as if they do. I appreciate , This works both ways. The South had had its challenges but did anyone discriminate  against you in your own land, because you're Irish?  Whether that be going for a job, a house, sectarian abuse by the forces of law and order, collusion by the state, coat trailing marches. Walk a mile in the shoes of someone from Derry , Belfast or east Tyrone . I know several people from the South who have done that , and learnt to appreciate where we're coming from, and on reflection were embarrassed by the lack of understanding, interest or empathy from many southerners. Please take this as it's intended, I appreciate your viewpoint, and as I say I've a genuine affinity for the  South , but a bit more research and reflection before criticising the "cantankerous rabble " would be appreciated .

Applesisapples

Quote from: Lar Naparka on March 30, 2021, 12:34:57 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 30, 2021, 11:13:23 AM
Sam you seem to have an obsession with "suck it up" ???
Is that your perception of " get on with life" while not letting bigots have their way.
Silver Hill's post is such a positive statement of how things are now and how things are heading for the Catholic/Nationalist Community in the 6 Cos.
Leave the negativity to DUPUDA and other backward looking extremists.
Definitely no offence meant here Sam but I think all shades of Nationalism in the north appear to have very short term and selective memories.
Who was responsible for initiating  discussions that lead to the GFA?
It all began when the then Taoiseach, Albert Reynolds,  succeeded in persuading Gerry Adams to sit down and talk- in secret I may add. The negotiations were slow and tortuous and it wasn't until Bertie Ahern became Taoiseach that Unionist spokesmen were persuaded/coerced to enter discussions.
Bertie played on his friendship with Tony Blair to  get him onside and he brought Unionists of all shades into the negotiations.
What about Bill Clinton? Who persuaded him to lend his support to the ongoing peace process and,no, it wasn't Sinn Fein!
Two Catholic priests and a Protestant clergymen were appointed as go-betweens - they didn't just pop out of the blue.  Other countries weighed in to assure the Prods that they'd act as guarantors that terms agreed at the talks would be honoured and a Canadian, John de Chastelain, was appointed to the chair. Canada didn't develop a benevolent interest in NI affairs overnight.

Finally, things got to the stage after thousand of hours of to-ing and fro-ing that Bertie Ahern won the confidence of Ian Paisley and knelt in prayer with him.
Paisley shook his hand and said he was a man of his word and so he proved to be.
You'd have no parity of esteem or a road map to unification without the orchestration of the Republic and that is simply undeniable.
I have yet to hear a Nationalist spokesperson acknowledge that fact.
On the other had, I see no great effort for moderate Nationalism to distance itself from the Free State jibers. Yet you resent the fact that southerners take an antagonistic  view of the Nationalist community.
How could it be otherwise when all we hear is coming from the likes of Angelo?
Very sweeping insulting take on northern nationalism...

Lar Naparka

Quote from: Applesisapples on March 30, 2021, 03:50:58 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on March 30, 2021, 12:34:57 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 30, 2021, 11:13:23 AM
Sam you seem to have an obsession with "suck it up" ???
Is that your perception of " get on with life" while not letting bigots have their way.
Silver Hill's post is such a positive statement of how things are now and how things are heading for the Catholic/Nationalist Community in the 6 Cos.
Leave the negativity to DUPUDA and other backward looking extremists.
Definitely no offence meant here Sam but I think all shades of Nationalism in the north appear to have very short term and selective memories.
Who was responsible for initiating  discussions that lead to the GFA?
It all began when the then Taoiseach, Albert Reynolds,  succeeded in persuading Gerry Adams to sit down and talk- in secret I may add. The negotiations were slow and tortuous and it wasn't until Bertie Ahern became Taoiseach that Unionist spokesmen were persuaded/coerced to enter discussions.
Bertie played on his friendship with Tony Blair to  get him onside and he brought Unionists of all shades into the negotiations.
What about Bill Clinton? Who persuaded him to lend his support to the ongoing peace process and,no, it wasn't Sinn Fein!
Two Catholic priests and a Protestant clergymen were appointed as go-betweens - they didn't just pop out of the blue.  Other countries weighed in to assure the Prods that they'd act as guarantors that terms agreed at the talks would be honoured and a Canadian, John de Chastelain, was appointed to the chair. Canada didn't develop a benevolent interest in NI affairs overnight.

Finally, things got to the stage after thousand of hours of to-ing and fro-ing that Bertie Ahern won the confidence of Ian Paisley and knelt in prayer with him.
Paisley shook his hand and said he was a man of his word and so he proved to be.
You'd have no parity of esteem or a road map to unification without the orchestration of the Republic and that is simply undeniable.
I have yet to hear a Nationalist spokesperson acknowledge that fact.
On the other had, I see no great effort for moderate Nationalism to distance itself from the Free State jibers. Yet you resent the fact that southerners take an antagonistic  view of the Nationalist community.
How could it be otherwise when all we hear is coming from the likes of Angelo?
Very sweeping insulting take on northern nationalism...
Can you point out anywhere you disagree with me? I Didn't attempt  to do anything other than present the reason  why  many in the republic are confused and irritated by the continuous jibes being directed at us from people we feel have very short and selective memories.
Nil Carborundum Illegitemi

Rossfan

Sam, the new all Ireland State has to make arrangements for the 6 Cos and for those who choose British nationality there.
Sensible folks like you, civic unionism and the middle ground are well capable of devising such arrangements.

I'm not very well informed on Belgium's governance* but they (and the Swiss to a point) seem to be able to make arrangements for differing groups within the 1 sovereign State.
Might be a starting point.

* must look it up some time.
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

imtommygunn

Quote from: Lar Naparka on March 30, 2021, 04:08:58 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on March 30, 2021, 03:50:58 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on March 30, 2021, 12:34:57 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 30, 2021, 11:13:23 AM
Sam you seem to have an obsession with "suck it up" ???
Is that your perception of " get on with life" while not letting bigots have their way.
Silver Hill's post is such a positive statement of how things are now and how things are heading for the Catholic/Nationalist Community in the 6 Cos.
Leave the negativity to DUPUDA and other backward looking extremists.
Definitely no offence meant here Sam but I think all shades of Nationalism in the north appear to have very short term and selective memories.
Who was responsible for initiating  discussions that lead to the GFA?
It all began when the then Taoiseach, Albert Reynolds,  succeeded in persuading Gerry Adams to sit down and talk- in secret I may add. The negotiations were slow and tortuous and it wasn't until Bertie Ahern became Taoiseach that Unionist spokesmen were persuaded/coerced to enter discussions.
Bertie played on his friendship with Tony Blair to  get him onside and he brought Unionists of all shades into the negotiations.
What about Bill Clinton? Who persuaded him to lend his support to the ongoing peace process and,no, it wasn't Sinn Fein!
Two Catholic priests and a Protestant clergymen were appointed as go-betweens - they didn't just pop out of the blue.  Other countries weighed in to assure the Prods that they'd act as guarantors that terms agreed at the talks would be honoured and a Canadian, John de Chastelain, was appointed to the chair. Canada didn't develop a benevolent interest in NI affairs overnight.

Finally, things got to the stage after thousand of hours of to-ing and fro-ing that Bertie Ahern won the confidence of Ian Paisley and knelt in prayer with him.
Paisley shook his hand and said he was a man of his word and so he proved to be.
You'd have no parity of esteem or a road map to unification without the orchestration of the Republic and that is simply undeniable.
I have yet to hear a Nationalist spokesperson acknowledge that fact.
On the other had, I see no great effort for moderate Nationalism to distance itself from the Free State jibers. Yet you resent the fact that southerners take an antagonistic  view of the Nationalist community.
How could it be otherwise when all we hear is coming from the likes of Angelo?
Very sweeping insulting take on northern nationalism...
Can you point out anywhere you disagree with me? I Didn't attempt  to do anything other than present the reason  why  many in the republic are confused and irritated by the continuous jibes being directed at us from people we feel have very short and selective memories.

You make some good points. Your last point is in danger of invalidating the rest though...

Tbh nationalist leadership isn't good. I wouldn't be a fan of SF and IMO Colum Eastwood is a very poor leader so I don't know who you expect to come out and credit the southern politicians.

"free staters" is not a common term from anyone I know and I doubt it is across the board. I wouldn't take one person on a messageboard as an illustration that it is.

screenexile

Hate the term "Free State" "Nordies" and "Gah"

In fairness I tend to reply with "Free State" whenever I'm referred to as a Nordie.

Or "horrible Tyrone bastard" when someone calls it Londonderry.

6th sam

Quote from: Rossfan on March 30, 2021, 04:31:58 PM
Sam, the new all Ireland State has to make arrangements for the 6 Cos and for those who choose British nationality there.
Sensible folks like you, civic unionism and the middle ground are well capable of devising such arrangements.

I'm not very well informed on Belgium's governance* but they (and the Swiss to a point) seem to be able to make arrangements for differing groups within the 1 sovereign State.
Might be a starting point.

* must look it up some time.

Exactly, not insurmountable, and all people on this island need to envisage new arrangements. What I would appreciate however is a recognition that the status quo in the North is as unacceptable as a New Ireland which doesn't respect the British. I knew a southerner living in the North who was embarrassed by the attitude of some in the South to the North and vice versa, he used to say "partition has worked"
In dividing the Irish against each other. Ironically Lar naparka and others are rightly advocating patience and respect now in dealing with unionism ,  when in reality patience snd respect at the time of the treaty , holding out for a better deal , financed by the British could have seen a United ireland years ago. Any new deal would have to be bankrolled by the British given that they created the problem , and will be glad to offload the North even if they have to finance it for a few more years.

Rossfan

The current status quo in the North is what the vast majority of us voted for in 1998 :-\.
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

6th sam

Quote from: Rossfan on March 30, 2021, 06:32:18 PM
The current status quo in the North is what the vast majority of us voted for in 1998 :-\.
Yes, and we all were prepared to sacrifice things to give it a chance, hoping for progression, but after 20 years DUP remained ungenerous , unneighbourly , anti Irish and unscientific . The status quo is unworkable .

Lar Naparka

Quote from: imtommygunn on March 30, 2021, 05:09:28 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on March 30, 2021, 04:08:58 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on March 30, 2021, 03:50:58 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on March 30, 2021, 12:34:57 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 30, 2021, 11:13:23 AM
Sam you seem to have an obsession with "suck it up" ???
Is that your perception of " get on with life" while not letting bigots have their way.
Silver Hill's post is such a positive statement of how things are now and how things are heading for the Catholic/Nationalist Community in the 6 Cos.
Leave the negativity to DUPUDA and other backward looking extremists.
Definitely no offence meant here Sam but I think all shades of Nationalism in the north appear to have very short term and selective memories.
Who was responsible for initiating  discussions that lead to the GFA?
It all began when the then Taoiseach, Albert Reynolds,  succeeded in persuading Gerry Adams to sit down and talk- in secret I may add. The negotiations were slow and tortuous and it wasn't until Bertie Ahern became Taoiseach that Unionist spokesmen were persuaded/coerced to enter discussions.
Bertie played on his friendship with Tony Blair to  get him onside and he brought Unionists of all shades into the negotiations.
What about Bill Clinton? Who persuaded him to lend his support to the ongoing peace process and,no, it wasn't Sinn Fein!
Two Catholic priests and a Protestant clergymen were appointed as go-betweens - they didn't just pop out of the blue.  Other countries weighed in to assure the Prods that they'd act as guarantors that terms agreed at the talks would be honoured and a Canadian, John de Chastelain, was appointed to the chair. Canada didn't develop a benevolent interest in NI affairs overnight.

Finally, things got to the stage after thousand of hours of to-ing and fro-ing that Bertie Ahern won the confidence of Ian Paisley and knelt in prayer with him.
Paisley shook his hand and said he was a man of his word and so he proved to be.
You'd have no parity of esteem or a road map to unification without the orchestration of the Republic and that is simply undeniable.
I have yet to hear a Nationalist spokesperson acknowledge that fact.
On the other had, I see no great effort for moderate Nationalism to distance itself from the Free State jibers. Yet you resent the fact that southerners take an antagonistic  view of the Nationalist community.
How could it be otherwise when all we hear is coming from the likes of Angelo?
Very sweeping insulting take on northern nationalism...
Can you point out anywhere you disagree with me? I Didn't attempt  to do anything other than present the reason  why  many in the republic are confused and irritated by the continuous jibes being directed at us from people we feel have very short and selective memories.

You make some good points. Your last point is in danger of invalidating the rest though...

Tbh nationalist leadership isn't good. I wouldn't be a fan of SF and IMO Colum Eastwood is a very poor leader so I don't know who you expect to come out and credit the southern politicians.

"free staters" is not a common term from anyone I know and I doubt it is across the board. I wouldn't take one person on a messageboard as an illustration that it is.
I thought I had emphasised the point that only a very small minority of Nationalists are offensive to most southerners.I have said It would be less than 5%. ( As a matter of fact, I believe I put the figure at about 2%.) Now, bear in mind that Ross, Itchy and other southerners involved here re not typical southerners. I'm referring to a general interest in northern affairs.
Those lads care enough about the state of affairs in the north to be able to separate the begrudgers from the ordinary, decent Nationalists who have to cope with an extremely difficult environment.
The vast majority of the general public in the south would be inclined to react likes Rossfan's neighbour who turned the radio off as he was fed up of hearing non-stop about endless problems in the north.
THat's unfair to the 95% polus who deserve all the sympathy they can get.
BUt IU was trying to explain to sam whey there may be a bit oof antagonism in the south when troubles in the north make the news once more.
Bear in mind that this is a quirk of human nature. Everybody on all sides get tared with the same brush.
So, by way of example, if Gregory Campbell appears on tv and comes out with his usual bundle of lies, damn lies  and half truths, and all delivered with his usual smugness, he will annoy most southerners.
Now, if, say, Michelle O'Neill comes on to counter Gregory's claims, she'll get the same reaction from a southern audience. Damn the pair of them would be the likeliest response.
That is why I think the majority of Nationalists should not leave all the running to the mouthy minority. The perception is that all Nationalists think the same.
I accept that the huge majority of the Nationalist community do not stoop to terms like Free Staters." But we don't hear as much from the silent majority as we do from the aggro merchants.Only a few southerners will take the time to spot the difference.
At most, I'd say there are only three troublemakers currently active on the board but there have been quite a few others over recent years. But I have heard plenty of it outside of the board. I can think of times I went into the north for league games where Mayo had been playing and whenever I was sporting the green and red I was sure I'd get plenty of snide remarks about Mayo and the f**king Free State!
Incidentally, Free Stater is only one of a number of stock insults There are others far more eoffensive.

BTW: Itchy, Bertie Ahern told me the bombings were carrieds out by  loyalist paramilitaries with the help of M15.
Nil Carborundum Illegitemi

imtommygunn

The world and politics in general doesn't have as many, in fact barely any, moderates these days though. It's not exclusive to nationalism. I would agree it's a middle ground is needed though.

I was discussing this stuff once with someone and their view was that a United ireland now can happen however he doesn't see SF can deliver it but they are too arrogant to see it. Tbh I would tend to agree. You only have to read the threads on here to see the reaction they provoke. If only there was a John Hume or the like in the sdlp :(

I have also been at matches in the south where stuff has been said so it works both ways. There are quite a few "we" can get up here too. West Brit probably the worst. It works both ways.

P.s. I am sure Bertie appreciates you sharing that info...

Silver hill

Why would he not share that info if that's what Bertie told him? Did the Secrets police tell him not to?
There have been several documentaries on this and the conclusions were always that it was loyalist with British collusion.
Dogs in the street know that.
The shame is that consecutive ff and Fg governments didn't want to know when it came to finding out who was behind it. Head down, nothing to see here, hopefully it will just go away as time passes. More important to maintain the cozy cartel between Fitzgerald/ thatcher, Bruton/major etc etc.

Applesisapples

Quote from: Lar Naparka on March 30, 2021, 04:08:58 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on March 30, 2021, 03:50:58 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on March 30, 2021, 12:34:57 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 30, 2021, 11:13:23 AM
Sam you seem to have an obsession with "suck it up" ???
Is that your perception of " get on with life" while not letting bigots have their way.
Silver Hill's post is such a positive statement of how things are now and how things are heading for the Catholic/Nationalist Community in the 6 Cos.
Leave the negativity to DUPUDA and other backward looking extremists.
Definitely no offence meant here Sam but I think all shades of Nationalism in the north appear to have very short term and selective memories.
Who was responsible for initiating  discussions that lead to the GFA?
It all began when the then Taoiseach, Albert Reynolds,  succeeded in persuading Gerry Adams to sit down and talk- in secret I may add. The negotiations were slow and tortuous and it wasn't until Bertie Ahern became Taoiseach that Unionist spokesmen were persuaded/coerced to enter discussions.
Bertie played on his friendship with Tony Blair to  get him onside and he brought Unionists of all shades into the negotiations.
What about Bill Clinton? Who persuaded him to lend his support to the ongoing peace process and,no, it wasn't Sinn Fein!
Two Catholic priests and a Protestant clergymen were appointed as go-betweens - they didn't just pop out of the blue.  Other countries weighed in to assure the Prods that they'd act as guarantors that terms agreed at the talks would be honoured and a Canadian, John de Chastelain, was appointed to the chair. Canada didn't develop a benevolent interest in NI affairs overnight.

Finally, things got to the stage after thousand of hours of to-ing and fro-ing that Bertie Ahern won the confidence of Ian Paisley and knelt in prayer with him.
Paisley shook his hand and said he was a man of his word and so he proved to be.
You'd have no parity of esteem or a road map to unification without the orchestration of the Republic and that is simply undeniable.
I have yet to hear a Nationalist spokesperson acknowledge that fact.
On the other had, I see no great effort for moderate Nationalism to distance itself from the Free State jibers. Yet you resent the fact that southerners take an antagonistic  view of the Nationalist community.
How could it be otherwise when all we hear is coming from the likes of Angelo?
Very sweeping insulting take on northern nationalism...
Can you point out anywhere you disagree with me? I Didn't attempt  to do anything other than present the reason  why  many in the republic are confused and irritated by the continuous jibes being directed at us from people we feel have very short and selective memories.
Some but not all yet you include me with the likes of Angelo!