Best Club Championship

[Drumanee 1]

even when cross were going through transition and building a new team still nobody in armagh could knock them off there perch,and as i said nobody came close with drumintee flattering to deceive.so no matter what way you dress it up armagh at this minute in time and this past 13 years is a one club county,even carlow have 2 contenders.

[Drumanee 1]

Cross do get 90% of the best footballers in Armagh at a young age. I was told that by 2 very prominent Armagh individuals-with their repuatation of winning at this stage- thats to be expected. Hence their dominance. Vincents dominated the dublin championship in the 50's and 60's and dublin won little or nothing at all-ireland inter county level in that period. Having one very strong team is no good for any county. Thats not Cross's fault but it leaves the standard among the rest at a low enough level.

what are you saying here?that players from the likes of armagh city,lurgan/portadown come to cross just because they are successful,tell me i have took you up wrong.

[eireogatron]

if you take Cross out the championship in Armagh is extremely competitive, with the other finalists changing constantly. Last year Cross were taken to the pin of their collar by a couple of teams and only a contentious decision disallowing a goal for the Harps prevented them toppling.

You are gauging the rest of Armagh by the fact that they cant beat Cross, BUT CROSS ARE PROBABLY THE GREATEST CLUB SIDE IN HISTORY!!

If the Armagh championship is so shit, how come in the last few years Cross have had their hardest games domestically and then cruise against the other county champions in Ulster?

[full back]

Cross do get 90% of the best footballers in Armagh at a young age. I was told that by 2 very prominent Armagh individuals

Either you took it up wrong or the individuals havent got a clue there Indiana
It is complete & utter bullsh1t

[The GAA]

Probably fair to say they get a lot of talented players from other s armagh clubs - particularly the bridge and cullaville

[Drumanee 1]

if you take Cross out the championship in Armagh is extremely competitive, with the other finalists changing constantly. Last year Cross were taken to the pin of their collar by a couple of teams and only a contentious decision disallowing a goal for the Harps prevented them toppling.

You are gauging the rest of Armagh by the fact that they cant beat Cross, BUT CROSS ARE PROBABLY THE GREATEST CLUB SIDE IN HISTORY!!

If the Armagh championship is so shit, how come in the last few years Cross have had their hardest games domestically and then cruise against the other county champions in Ulster?

sure if you take st galls and cargin out of antrim there championship would be more competitive but that will seriously lessen the quality and the same if you took cross out of armagh.

you say cross are the greatest club side in history,how many of this years team played in 97?so over the years there team has changed several times and still nobody put it up to them.so i think you mean to say they are the greatest club in history.

since 2000 there have been bellaghy,ballinderry,loup and st galls who have all won the ulster championship so cross have not cruised through ulster with ballinderry taking them to a replay last year.

[Maximus Marillius]

if you take Cross out the championship in Armagh is extremely competitive, with the other finalists changing constantly. Last year Cross were taken to the pin of their collar by a couple of teams and only a contentious decision disallowing a goal for the Harps prevented them toppling.

You are gauging the rest of Armagh by the fact that they cant beat Cross, BUT CROSS ARE PROBABLY THE GREATEST CLUB SIDE IN HISTORY!!

If the Armagh championship is so shit, how come in the last few years Cross have had their hardest games domestically and then cruise against the other county champions in Ulster?

thtas one of the easiest questions I will have to answer today...its because all their training and fitness is geared towards the Ulster club due to the FACT that they know they will walk it in Armagh on a half ful tank.

[Spirit of 94]

Probably fair to say they get a lot of talented players from other s armagh clubs - particularly the bridge and cullaville

Add Cullyhanna and Cooley in Louth.

[Drumanee 1]

i also forgot that slaughtneil also took them to a replay

[AFS]

My problem is with people considering competitiveness and quality to be analogous. No one is arguing that the Armagh club championship is anything but uncompetitive (one winner for 13 years is an indicator of this), but I feel that many outside the county have used this uncompetitiveness to suggest that there is also a lack of quality.

To use an example from a different sport: the Swedish soccer league is ultra competitive with 8 different winners in the last 10 years; while the French league is extremely uncompetitive with the same team having won it for the last 7 or 8 years. Despite the Swedish league being much more competitive than the French one, only a fool or someone with very little knowledge of soccer would argue that this means the Swedish league is of superior quality.

This all harks back to the point Hardstation alluded to on the first page, the bottom line is that competitiveness is in no way an indicator of quality.

[Drumanee 1]

My problem is with people considering competitiveness and quality to be analogous. No one is arguing that the Armagh club championship is anything but uncompetitive (one winner for 13 years is an indicator of this), but I feel that many outside the county have used this uncompetitiveness to suggest that there is also a lack of quality.

To use an example from a different sport: the Swedish soccer league is ultra competitive with 8 different winners in the last 10 years; while the French league is extremely uncompetitive with the same team having won it for the last 7 or 8 years. Despite the Swedish league being much more competitive than the French one, only a fool or someone with very little knowledge of soccer would argue that this means the Swedish league is of superior quality.

This all harks back to the point Hardstation alluded to on the first page, the bottom line is that competitiveness is in no way an indicator of quality.

i take your point but as i have already said i have been to a few championship matches in armagh over the years and imo bar cross the quality is pretty poor.whereas in derry you have various permatations which would be top class matches and you could not be sure of the winner.this past few years ballinderry have been the team to beat and have been on several occasions and thats the difference.

[Bogball XV]

In the Ulster club, ove the past 20 years there have been 5 different winners from Derry (a total of 7 titles), 2 different clubs from Armagh (8 titles) and Monaghan (2 titles) and one winner each from Tyrone (2 titles) and Antrim.
Thus Derry would appear to have the most competitive championship in Ulster.

How does these stats equate to Derry's Club Championship being the most competitive?

I actually thought that was self-explanatory, but here goes, Derry have shown over the last 20 years that they have more clubs capable of winning Ulster than any other county in Ulster has exhibited.  The fact that we have had so many different winners both of our own championship and the Ulster would indicate that our championship is both competitive and of a high standard.  
Dungiven and Loup in their only 2 forays outside of Derry in that period have won Ulster titles, add in that Slaughtneil took Cross to a replay in their only outing and Glenullin fell to St Galls in the semi in their only outing and we see that Derry clubs are generally competitive in Ulster.
Whilst a Derry club hasn't won Ulster in the last six years, we've had the losing finalists in 05, 06 and 08.

[AFS]

My problem is with people considering competitiveness and quality to be analogous. No one is arguing that the Armagh club championship is anything but uncompetitive (one winner for 13 years is an indicator of this), but I feel that many outside the county have used this uncompetitiveness to suggest that there is also a lack of quality.

To use an example from a different sport: the Swedish soccer league is ultra competitive with 8 different winners in the last 10 years; while the French league is extremely uncompetitive with the same team having won it for the last 7 or 8 years. Despite the Swedish league being much more competitive than the French one, only a fool or someone with very little knowledge of soccer would argue that this means the Swedish league is of superior quality.

This all harks back to the point Hardstation alluded to on the first page, the bottom line is that competitiveness is in no way an indicator of quality.

i take your point but as i have already said i have been to a few championship matches in armagh over the years and imo bar cross the quality is pretty poor.whereas in derry you have various permatations which would be top class matches and you could not be sure of the winner.this past few years ballinderry have been the team to beat and have been on several occasions and thats the difference.

Suppose I wasn't really referring to you, if you've made a judgment based on your own experiences I can't argue with that. But I've listened to plenty of people, who'd have never been at a football match of any description in Armagh, run down the quality of the championship solely on the fact that there's only been one winner for the last umpteen years.

[billy the kid]

if you take Cross out the championship in Armagh is extremely competitive, with the other finalists changing constantly. Last year Cross were taken to the pin of their collar by a couple of teams and only a contentious decision disallowing a goal for the Harps prevented them toppling.

You are gauging the rest of Armagh by the fact that they cant beat Cross, BUT CROSS ARE PROBABLY THE GREATEST CLUB SIDE IN HISTORY!!

If the Armagh championship is so shit, how come in the last few years Cross have had their hardest games domestically and then cruise against the other county champions in Ulster?

Getting beat by Loup in 2003, Drawing with Slaughtneil in 2004, getting beat by Bellaghy in 2005 and drawing with Ballinderry in 2008 is hardly cruising it.



As for the strengths of Armagh Club football outside Cross?


2008 Ulster Intermediate Championship

Cullyhanna (3rd In Armagh Div 1) 0.9  Greenlough (Div 3 in Derry) 0.11

2007 Ulster Intermediate Championship

Whitecross (Div 1 Armagh)  0.12  Newbridge (Div 3 in Derry) 1.15


Also I have seen plenty of Armagh club games in last few years, including senior championship, intermediate championship and div 1 and 2 league games.  Outside of cross the standard is not great and the teams in div 2 are very poor IMHO. 

[eireogatron]

if you take Cross out the championship in Armagh is extremely competitive, with the other finalists changing constantly. Last year Cross were taken to the pin of their collar by a couple of teams and only a contentious decision disallowing a goal for the Harps prevented them toppling.

You are gauging the rest of Armagh by the fact that they cant beat Cross, BUT CROSS ARE PROBABLY THE GREATEST CLUB SIDE IN HISTORY!!

If the Armagh championship is so shit, how come in the last few years Cross have had their hardest games domestically and then cruise against the other county champions in Ulster?

sure if you take st galls and cargin out of antrim there championship would be more competitive but that will seriously lessen the quality and the same if you took cross out of armagh.

you say cross are the greatest club side in history,how many of this years team played in 97?so over the years there team has changed several times and still nobody put it up to them.so i think you mean to say they are the greatest club in history.

since 2000 there have been bellaghy,ballinderry,loup and st galls who have all won the ulster championship so cross have not cruised through ulster with ballinderry taking them to a replay last year.

they've cruised Ulster in the last 3 years. also there are still members of the team, hearty, mcconville, donaldson, mcentees, short etc who have been involved throughout.

teams like the Harps, Pearse Ogs, Dromintee would also compete in Ulster and would probably be in the shake up for any of the county titles. You use Antrim as your case study, the weakest county in Ulster. Division 4 sides from Armagh would compete in the Antrim div2 for God sake (no offence Antrim, its just the way it is)