Dual Citizenship

[armaghniac]

No I'm saying it's totally irrelevant whether it is an advantage or a disadvantage.

My question is, if you are in "Irish Unionist" as Evil Genius said above. Other Irish people don't agree that the Union is good for Ireland, and you aren't able to persuade them of the merits of your point of view. What makes the Union worth parting company with other Irish people? I can't see anyone proposing partitioning Scotland, even if there is a majority for independence and some regions do not have such a majority.

[SammyG]

No I'm saying it's totally irrelevant whether it is an advantage or a disadvantage.

Exactly.

WTF are you on about, how can you say exactly when you disagree with what I said?

[magickingdom]

The only good things to come from the British Empire are John Harrison and James Hind.

what about the toilet? the good ole british empire gave us the flushing toilet. it certainly beats the horrible french one 

[armaghniac]

WTF are you on about, how can you say exactly when you disagree with what I said?

OK, I've deleted the "Exactly", answer the rest of the question.

[SammyG]

WTF are you on about, how can you say exactly when you disagree with what I said?

OK, I've deleted the "Exactly", answer the rest of the question.

I've already answered the question. The issue of nationality has nothing to do with advantages or dis-advantages it is to do with where you are born and bred.

[armaghniac]

The issue of nationality has nothing to do with advantages or dis-advantages it is to do with where you are born and bred.

This is a reason for not emigrating. It has no bearing on whether the place your are born and bred, one of the 6 counties, should be linked to Monaghan or Manchester!

[Evil Genius]

Have to admit I still don't quite 'get' the Irishness of the likes of EG.

I'm an Irishman, because I was born and brought up in Ireland, to Irish parents. More specifically, I'm one of those Irish people who believes in the Union of the Irish Nation with the other Nations of the British Isles (England, Scotland, Wales).

Regrettably, in the early 20th Century, a section of the people of Ireland (Nationalists, that is), decided that they no longer wanted to be part of that Union and broke away*, forcing/negotiating a part of the island for themselves.

Had I been around then and found myself on the "wrong" side of the border, I would have had the choice facing some from my grandparents' generation i.e. stay and accept that my Unionist tradition was effectively likely to end, or move to where that tradition could be kept alive. Some chose the former, some the latter. (Luckily, I never had to choose, having been born and brought up in NI)

Anyhow, that history means that a number of influences go up to make who I am. I could variously and accurately describe myself as "Irish", "British", "Ulster", "European" etc, and all of those things would say something about me to e.g. a visitor from the other side of the world.

But the description which most accurately defines me and means most to me, is "Northern Irish".



* - It is an often overlooked part of Ireland's troubled history that it was in fact Irish Nationalists who were responsible for Partition, following the only period when the island could properly have been said to have been united (ironically under the British). Yet we Unionists get the blame...

[GweylTah]

Whether or not some Unionists have a dilemma concerning whether they embrace or reject an Irish idenity, nationalists face this one: if Irish nationalists felt they had a right to self-determination within the UK, and chose to remove themselves from it, then is it not inconsistent for them not to recognise the right of Unionists their right to self-determination (to remain outside of the RoI state and within the UK)?

[Evil Genius]

No I'm saying it's totally irrelevant whether it is an advantage or a disadvantage.

My question is, if you are in "Irish Unionist" as Evil Genius said above. Other Irish people don't agree that the Union is good for Ireland, and you aren't able to persuade them of the merits of your point of view. What makes the Union worth parting company with other Irish people? I can't see anyone proposing partitioning Scotland, even if there is a majority for independence and some regions do not have such a majority.

As I said in my elaboration of my position to MW (above), we Unionists did not "part company with other Irish people". It was the Nationalist people of Ireland who broke away from the existing set-up (a united Ireland within the UK), thereby separating themselves from the rest of the people of Ireland.

Now don't get me wrong, had I been in their position, I might have done the same; I think it truly sad that they came to that decision, and even sadder that it took a bloody and protracted guerilla war to effect it.

But when they did so, they did not take the "Deeds to Irishness" with them, leaving the rest of us (Unionists) as some sort of "squatter" in someone else's home (no matter how much some like to shout it on St.Paddy's Day, when they've a belly full of Guinness in them!).

The fact is, we Unionists are as Irish as anyone else on the island, we shouldn't deny it, nor we should we have to apologise for it. If anything, we should proclaim it (imo). Indeed, I would contend that when Big Ian recently met Bertie on the banks of the Boyne, and alluded to his  own sense of Irishness, he wasn't just "playing to the gallery", but expressing something which is self-evident (whether he knew it, or not).

However, and this is key, not only have we the right to be Irish, but we also have the right to be British. Now when I say "British", that does not make me any less Irish; neither does it make me different in some way. It certainly doesn't make me English (God Forbid!). Rather, I support the Union with my English, Scots and Welsh cousins, since I hope it enhances who I am.
The sad thing for me is that the only part of Ireland where I can freely exercise my participation in the Union is Northern Ireland. But I am sad that the Free State broke away, not that we remained, which is why I am proud to proclaim my Northern Irishness above all, since that allows me to be who I am.

In the end, the key to rationalising my (superficially contradictory) "Irish" and "British" joint identity is to be found in the simple word itself: "Union". For me, this does not mean annexation, merger, subjugation or absorption etc. Rather, I am a (Northern) Irishman, who prefers to join with our three other neighbopuring nations when it comes to organising and living my life.

And if any Irish Nationalists in the Republic should find that a difficult concept to comprehend, they need only look to their own country's membership of the European Union. That arrangement doesn't make them any less "Irish", but they mostly* seem to feel it enhances their lives.


* - Am I right in saying that Sinn Fein is one of the most anti-EU parties in the Republic? If so, it would appear that they don't truly want to join with anyone who doesn't share their own, narrow view of "nationhood". We Ourselves, indeed...

[stephenite]

I'll happily reply "Ireland", if for no other reason than that I prefer to enjoy my Sam Adams in peace!

Who needs Spanish sputum in his Sam McGill?

Sorry to butt in, but have to ask what this means, obviously it's your pint/tipple but why Sam and what's the difference between Adams and McGill ?

Here EG, this is bugging me - don't know why but it is

[armaghniac]

then is it not inconsistent for them not to recognise the right of Unionists their right to self-determination (to remain outside of the RoI state and within the UK)?

The present position is that the GFA means that such a right has in practice been recognised. In general there are some issues about colonial populations to engage in self determination, the Nazis cleared out parts of Poland and Slovenia, but you would accept that the populations they placed there did not have the right to self determination. Unionists distinguish themselves from this kind of thing because they've been here for so long, which confuses the practical issues if not the moral ones. However even neglecting this point it is one thing for a country to have self determination, it is another for a collection of people in part of a country to have such self determination. If a majority of Polish people come to live to my estate I don't agree that they have the right to make it part of Poland. Unionists don't recognise the right either, they don't recognise the right of the people of Derry to name their city, never mind engage in self determination. My example of Scotland is pertinent, do unionists argue that Scotland should be partitioned if a majority for independence arises and some regions do not have such a majority?

Ireland is one country, you can argue that it cannot be one state for some serious reason, but this is a disadvantage and not a something to be tolerated if the reasons it is partitioned can be addressed.

Saying that nationalists caused partition is a bit like regretting the Nederlands reimposing a border with Germany in 1945.

And if any Irish Nationalists in the Republic should find that a difficult concept to comprehend, they need only look to their own country's membership of the European Union. That arrangement doesn't make them any less "Irish", but they mostly* seem to feel it enhances their lives.

I greatly value the EU, however if the Republic chooses to leave, I will not be advocating that the part of it I live in should seperate from the rest of the country and remain in the EU. What is so good about the UK that 1. isn't available in the broader EU and 2. that justifies partition.

[Evil Genius]

I'll happily reply "Ireland", if for no other reason than that I prefer to enjoy my Sam Adams in peace!

Who needs Spanish sputum in his Sam McGill?

Sorry to butt in, but have to ask what this means, obviously it's your pint/tipple but why Sam and what's the difference between Adams and McGill ?

Here EG, this is bugging me - don't know why but it is

Oh, it's SOOOOOO tempting to keep you in suspenders, but I suppose I'd better explain:



( http://www.mahou-sanmiguel.com/ )

[GweylTah]

Silly and possibly (deliberately?) offensive parallels or even comparisons with the Third Reich might appeal to Mary McAleese and others who follow in De Valera's foot-steps (to the German representative's house in Dublin?- there's the irony) but are ludicrous.

Ireland is an island, you can argue over whether it is one or two countries, it is two states (or includes two states).

People have been moving between Ireland and Great Britian, and back, and forth, for centuries if not millenia.

It's hard to envisage either Wales or Scotland (or England) being partitioned, especially in this era, but not impossible.  Wales is a linguistic dicotomy, and the Scots Higlanders and Islanders have little in sommon with the Central Belt and the Borders - those in the Northern Isles have more historic affinity to Norway than they have to Edinburgh or London.  Several European countries/states are only held together by the thinnest of national bonds and the maximum devolution regionally/locally.

We have what we have here in Ireland and can make the best of it.

[Evil Genius]

In general there are some issues about colonial populations to engage in self determination, the Nazis cleared out parts of Poland and Slovenia, but you would accept that the populations they placed there did not have the right to self determination. Unionists distinguish themselves from this kind of thing because they've been here for so long, which confuses the practical issues if not the moral ones.

Well, it's slipping out, now, isn't it? Gweyltah has already dealt with the old Nazi "Blut und Boden" bit, so I'll just ask a question, if I may.

At what point were we Unionists* here long enough so as to cause "practical difficulties" in just kicking us out again? 1641? 1690? 1798, perhaps? Any advance? Do I hear 1848? Is there a 1916 in the house? Thank You, Sir. I'll accept a 1968, if there's one out there. No? Going once, going tw.... Wait, I have 1968. 1968 has the floor. I'll take a 2007, if there's one out there. 2007 it is. Is there any more? One last chance.... Yes! I have 2016! 2016 from the corner. 2016 going once, going twice, going for the last time: Sold! To the gentleman in the Black Beret, Dark Glasses and White Belt. Leave your details with the Cashier, Mr. Adams. 


* - I just know you'd like to use the term "Planter", but this pesky Political Correctness gets everywhere, these days...

[Fiodoir Ard Mhacha]

This is a very interesting debate but if I had to go through all the points, I'd be here til the next bank holiday. (The 12th!)

Suffice to say, EG, it seems that you 'blame' the Irish nationalists for partition - surely it was their right to self-determination? - you make it sound like they were being the spoiled child, ruining the party (Union?) by wanting to run away from mummy Britain.

The other point raised by MW that I thought I should respond to was that, yes the Unionist tradition must be respected, of course, but the sizeable nationalist minority in the dissected Ulster also needs to have its aspirations aired and/or fulfilled, something that did not happen between 1921 and, I'll say, to be ultra-fair, 1968. EG says the Union may be the safest it's ever been, but that doesn't mean that the rights of northern nationalists can ever be ridden over roughshod again.

Incidentally, I do want an "Ireland of equals" - I think it may have been Gerry Adams who said that blandest of statements - but, whether you trust him and his cohorts or not, the phrase is exactly the ultimate solution.

What can be so wrong with a united Ireland, which happens to be independent (not, note "free") from Britain, who treats all its citizens with equity, fairness, freedom of expression and civil and (religious?) liberty - and plays an fully participative role in Europe, unlike its nearest neighbour !!

PS Finally, forgive me, but I still can't get my head round wanting to declare oneself "Northern Irish" above all else. Surely, you should just be British, or a UK citizen? Northern Ireland as a separate entity doesn't exist.

Respectfully yours.