The ulster rugby trial

Started by caprea, February 01, 2018, 11:45:56 PM

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Tony Baloney

Quote from: gallsman on April 05, 2018, 01:12:13 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on April 05, 2018, 11:37:11 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 05, 2018, 11:36:22 AM
Jesus, some people are easy offended

I'm not offended, I just think they're donkeys.

Precisely, whether offended or not, you'd have to be a bit of a Muppet not to recognise the stupidity of it.
Stupid and not even remotely funny considering it was pre-meditated as someone went to the bother of printing names.

Milltown Row2

Quote from: Tony Baloney on April 05, 2018, 01:44:02 PM
Quote from: gallsman on April 05, 2018, 01:12:13 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on April 05, 2018, 11:37:11 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 05, 2018, 11:36:22 AM
Jesus, some people are easy offended

I'm not offended, I just think they're donkeys.

Precisely, whether offended or not, you'd have to be a bit of a Muppet not to recognise the stupidity of it.
Stupid and not even remotely funny considering it was pre-meditated as someone went to the bother of printing names.

wasnt funny and was stupid, but we are dealing with rugby players, not the local choir
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

haranguerer

Quote from: Tony Baloney on April 05, 2018, 01:44:02 PM
Quote from: gallsman on April 05, 2018, 01:12:13 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on April 05, 2018, 11:37:11 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 05, 2018, 11:36:22 AM
Jesus, some people are easy offended

I'm not offended, I just think they're donkeys.

Precisely, whether offended or not, you'd have to be a bit of a Muppet not to recognise the stupidity of it.
Stupid and not even remotely funny considering it was pre-meditated as someone went to the bother of printing names.

I wondered at that too, but don't see how it could have been - it'd be ridiculously elaborate if so. I'm assuming the name tags were in the changing room or somewhere (it was at Ravenhill), and they took the opportunity to make tits of themselves

David McKeown

Quote from: Frank_The_Tank on April 05, 2018, 09:15:59 AM
Quote from: seafoid on April 05, 2018, 06:29:21 AM

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/full-reporting-of-ulster-rape-trial-could-undermine-the-verdict-36776307.html

A lawyer for one of the rugby players acquitted in the Belfast rape trial has said he has concerns the lifting of reporting restrictions could "undermine the verdict of not guilty".

Frank O'Donoghue QC, who represented Stuart Olding (25) during the nine-week trial, said there was a "general concern" the not guilty verdicts could be undermined.

The lawyer said: "On occasion it (reporting) has been anything but respectful of the verdict."

An application by various media outlets to lift reporting restrictions imposed by Judge Patricia Smyth is expected to come before her next Monday.

Will it all be on public record anyway in a transcript of the trial that goes online?

All criminal trials are recorded for use in appeals etc but I've never heard of a transcript being made available. It would have to be heavily redacted to prevent the identity of the complainant and her details/history etc.
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Tony Baloney

Quote from: haranguerer on April 05, 2018, 02:08:09 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on April 05, 2018, 01:44:02 PM
Quote from: gallsman on April 05, 2018, 01:12:13 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on April 05, 2018, 11:37:11 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 05, 2018, 11:36:22 AM
Jesus, some people are easy offended

I'm not offended, I just think they're donkeys.

Precisely, whether offended or not, you'd have to be a bit of a Muppet not to recognise the stupidity of it.
Stupid and not even remotely funny considering it was pre-meditated as someone went to the bother of printing names.

I wondered at that too, but don't see how it could have been - it'd be ridiculously elaborate if so. I'm assuming the name tags were in the changing room or somewhere (it was at Ravenhill), and they took the opportunity to make tits of themselves
Ah right didn't realise it was in Ravenhill as I just looked at the photo. Your explanation makes more sense! They are still idiots though!

sid waddell

Quote from: sid waddell on April 04, 2018, 02:07:45 PM

I see the following as aspects of rape culture.

Ignorance of or deliberate misunderstanding as to what constitutes rape, ie. the tropes about "if a woman doesn't scream, it can't be rape", which the defence QCs in the Belfast trial implied. We've actually had posters here who believed this, and not just the dregs who you'd expect to be ignorant but otherwise good posters who I would have thought this wouldn't have needed to be explained to. Implying or stating that spousal rape cannot exist, as George Hook did.

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 04, 2018, 08:33:59 PM

Ignorance or not correctly understanding aspects of laws by the general public is a common trope the world over given the way many laws that get enacted often do so without much public announcement, and this is most certainly is not limited to those regarding crimes of a sexual nature so framing it within such a narrow context is dishonest. Most people who falsely assume what exists within law and judicial process are happy enough to be corrected when informed by someone whom has knowledge in such an area. In any case I doubt anyone, including judges, lawyers, legislators etc. who make, argue and enforce the law know every single law that applies in a juristiction off hand.

As an example, how many people know that in Northern Ireland a man cannot technically be raped by a woman (despite rape and other sexual assault laws in most other Western countries being gender-neutral) but that there is another part of the Sexual Offences NI Order 2008 that covers a man being "made to penetrate" a willing female which is determined in trial on the same basis as a man forcing penetration on a female and if the accused is found guilty of the offence is potentially subject to the same severity of sentence (life imprisionment)?

That a rape victim does not scream or fight is not a law - it is what experts on the subject tell us, including the defence's expert medical witness Janet Hall.  However I would have thought it should also be common sense.

A person is not breaking any laws by stating or implying that if a woman doesn't scream or fight and shows no signs of visible consent, that it was not rape, or is evidence that it was consensual. They are just perpetuating misinformation.

The QCs who perpetuated such misinformation know full well that a non-scream/fight reaction is the norm for rape victims. Yet he still used it as a key point in his defence.

Spousal rape has been on the books in Ireland since 1990. You'd expect people to know that by now, especially high profile "opinion formers".

I don't deny there are some inconsistencies in rape laws both here and in the North.

Perhaps one of our legal experts can clarify Article 8 of the Northern Ireland Sexual Offences Act 2008?  Article 8.(1) appears to state that forcing another person to engage in sexual activity with a third person is only an offence for a man, while Article 8.(4), for which the maximum punishment is life imprisonment, appears to be non-gender specific.

But the bottom line is very few sexual assaults are committed by women on men, comparatively speaking, than the other way around.

Biology has seen to that.

To quote Margaret Atwood, "men are afraid that women will laugh at them, women are afraid men will kill them".

Quote from: sid waddell on April 04, 2018, 02:07:45 PM
A belief that it's just fine to perform a sex act on a person who is asleep, and who by definition cannot give consent. On another widely read Irish forum there have been several posters claiming that this is just fine. It's sexual assault at best and outright rape at worst. There was a high profile court case in Ireland not very long ago where a man commited ten such rapes and was sentenced to no jail time whatsoever - it was subsequently appealed and he got 15 months.

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 04, 2018, 08:33:59 PM
Maybe it's me but I've never known anyone within my circle of people for many years whom have assumed that performing a sexual act on someone whom is asleep or is in any condition to not give informed consent isn't illegal. "Several posters" on a "widely read Irish forum" saying that this, wrongly, isn't the case that this line of assumption is predominant and goes back again to the above about the general assumption of the state of law. Or the could be disingenuous but without context it's impossible to know.

"Several posters on a widely read Irish forum" (it was boards.ie, by the way) is indeed anecdotal evidence rather than a scientific study of attitudes in this country.

Performing a sex act on a sleeping person can hardly be put down to a "general assumption about the state of the law". If this is so, how ignorant would one have to be?

21% of Irish people believe that having sex without consent is justified in certain situations, according to a 2016 Eurobarometer report.

Would that statistic worry you in any way?

http://www.thejournal.ie/sex-consent-survey-3102174-Nov2016/#comments
http://cdn.thejournal.ie/media/2016/11/ebs_449_en-1.pdf


Quote from: sid waddell on April 04, 2018, 02:07:45 PM
A belief that a woman cannot withdraw consent at any point during sex. She can.

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 04, 2018, 08:33:59 PM
I've known that either party, woman or man, can withdraw consent at any point prior to or during intercourse since before I was a teenager. Have you valid proof though something like a formal survey that your statement is widespread in Irish society either prior to or after the trial in question?

I don't have the particular statistics for how many people don't understand the concept that consent can be withdrawn.

But again referring to the report linked to in my previous paragraph:

11% of Irish people surveyed think being drunk or on drugs justifies sex without consent.
9% think sex without consent is okay if a person voluntarily goes home with someone or is wearing "revealing, provocative or sexy clothing".
7% agreed sexual intercourse without consent is justified if the person is out walking alone at night.

That the above three are serious crimes seems more obvious to me than the concept that consent can be withdrawn (I'm trying to imagine an ignoramus's mindset here).

So I don't think it is a stretch at all to suggest that there are a lot of people who struggle with the concept that consent can be withdrawn at any time.

Quote from: sid waddell on April 04, 2018, 02:07:45 PM
Deliberately and mendaciously twisting the verdict of a trial to make out that a jury has found a complainant's allegations of rape to be lies.

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 04, 2018, 08:33:59 PM
It's not too much of a stretch to imagine that some people are acting in a mendacious manner. It is a stretch however to assume that everyone who thinks that the verdict assumes that it meant the IP's allegations were false. They might be, they probably weren't. It was not the job of the Jury to pass formal judgement on wherever the IP was lying or not, only to take into account wherever her claims were credible or not to helping decide judgement on the accused.

And to flip the coin over it is also "deliberately and mendaciously twisting the verdict of a trial to make out" that because a jury found all defendants not guilty on all charges, including rape, as they did not believe that rape was committed beyond probable doubt, that they actually did commit rape.

The jury did not find that the allegations were false. So anybody who claims that they did are either being mendacious or are just thick.

The jury did not find the defendants guilty of rape. I haven't claimed that they did. I respect that they came to a particular verdict based on the evidence before them.

I have my own views on what happened, but that's based on forming my own opinions on what I've read of the trial. They are only my personal views. I'm not being mendacious or claiming that the jury actually thought they committed rape. I don't know what the jury thought. Nobody does outside the jury members themselves.

Quote from: sid waddell on April 04, 2018, 02:07:45 PM
Humiliation - the "Love Belfast Sluts" meme Blane McIlroy sent around, the demands to publicly out the complainant. The sickening feasting on the Slane Girl video and the attempt to publicly out her.

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 04, 2018, 08:33:59 PM
I'm not aware of the meme in question so I won't comment on that. The demands to lift anonymity of the IP is again from a few arseholes and no sign of a general public malaise. As for "Slane Girl" both men and women were trying to spread her name across various channels, not to mention that unlike the trial in question where no one other than those involved in the bedroom in question can know for sure what went on, both the girl and boy in the Slane Girl case were committing clear breaches of the law in the ROI not to mention that those who were sharing photos of the incident in question could have been done for distributing child pornography.

I think it's fair to say that the obsession with the Slane Girl picture was pretty widespread. Is that evidence of a widespread malaise, at least among the demographic who were most preoccupied by it, young people? I think it could fairly be called that. It's certainly voyeurism and so called "slut shaming".

Now again, the evidence that there were pretty widespread calls for the anonymity of the complainant is only based on my impressions – determining whether there was such is by nature based on impressions, because there are unlikely to ever be formal surveys or polls of this question, but my distinct impression was that there was a pretty nasty and pretty significant minority of men on social media who held this opinion. That could be down to social media having a higher than average proportion of vocal men with neanderthal views, or it could be indicative that a lot of men in general actually do hold such neanderthal views. I highly doubt that such opinion is restricted to people who post online either. We can't know for sure what proportion of men hold or sympathise with such views but I know I read enough of them to make me unsettled.

Quote from: sid waddell on April 04, 2018, 02:07:45 PM
A belief that a woman desperately asking a man to "at least use a condom" constitutes consent. It doesn't. Again, this was a line pushed by the defence QCs.

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 04, 2018, 08:33:59 PM
Lawyers pushing dodgy lines in court to try and convince a jury isn't exactly ethical, but not uncommon either. I certainly agree that it doesn't constitute consent as the IP in question gave the impression in her evidence of being in a forced scenario, but sadly I do understand why that line was attempted to be pushed. The line about "middle class girls" didn't impress me either.
Fair enough, but again it was a QC who knows full well what consent is, perpetrating misinformation.

Quote from: sid waddell on April 04, 2018, 02:07:45 PM
A belief that a woman entering a man's bedroom equals consent. There should always be a presumption of no consent until it's made clear consent exists.

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 04, 2018, 08:33:59 PM
I don't think anyone I know assumes otherwise. Again, valid evidence that this is a widespread belief is needed here. The flipside is also true - a man entering a womans bedroom doesn't equal consent on any party either. I remember from my student days that a few women visited my bedroom from time to time and that I also visited their bedrooms, but nothing of a sexual nature ever occoured. Sure there was a bit of winking and nodding by others about that - and I would have been guilty myself of other lads in the same house as me - but there's a difference between a bit of that and making a direct assumption that sexual intercourse definitely occoured every time. And for that matter, the women were as bad as the men.

Again, I can't say for sure how widespread such a belief is. The real question is, how many men who, when sober, do not hold the belief that a woman entering a man's bedroom (or a man entering a woman's bedroom) constitutes consent, still hold that belief if they are drunk and the blood starts flowing to their penis instead of their brain?

Referring back to an earlier statistic, 9% think sex without consent is okay if a person voluntarily goes home with someone or is wearing "revealing, provocative or sexy clothing".

That's a pretty good indication, I'd say, as it's a very similar theme.

Milltown Row2

So there is no rape culture then.. Phew I thought we were going to hit the 300 pages on this.. which would be bizzare as the trial verdict was given last week, by a jury that had all the evidence and were present the whole time, then they decided that the rugby lads were not guilty, very quickly as it turned out..

But lets see how many more pages we can fit in..

I'm sure there have been many more cases to post about (not famous though), considering there is such a widespread culture of rape.. Hopefully I'll make it back to the car before being sexually assulted, I did park it at the back too, ffs!
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

sid waddell

Quote from: sid waddell on April 04, 2018, 02:07:45 PM
A belief that "no" doesn't mean no. This has been relentlessly pushed through popular culture, movies etc.

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 04, 2018, 08:33:59 PM
I fully agree. If a woman at a party is trying to get a little intimate with me when I don't want to and I make that clear to her, she should be respectful of my choice not to engage with her rather than simply ignore it and instead trying to stick her cold hand down the front of my jeans, the same way that a man should also understand that no means no if she says or implies it. It needs to be implied that when a woman (hetreo, lesbian & transgender) say "no", they are actually saying no and that the idea of "50 no's and a yes = yes" needs to be taken apart, the same way that the idea that all men are always up and ready to fulfil sexual conquests needs to be heavily challenged.
Fair enough. I don't think anybody is saying that a man doesn't have a right to say no.


Quote from: sid waddell on April 04, 2018, 02:07:45 PM
Joking about rape.

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 04, 2018, 08:33:59 PM
Again I agree. I didn't find particularly funny a scene in an episode of Family Guy where Joe Swanson tricks Glenn Quagmire into having sex with him. I also didn't find it funny when in both 40 Days And 40 Nights and Wedding Crashers featured a scene each where the lead character (or co-lead in WC) is forced to have sex with a woman where they're in no position to refuse consent, and it was being implied that this was for comedic effect. Had the reverse been implied for comedic effect the (rightful) protests about it would be enormous. The only other kind of "rape" that gets joked about tends to be prison rape, with the implication that the inmate getting raped somehow deserves it not withstanding that it's not only fellow inmates committing the rape but also prison staff as well. On the other hand I've seen or heard next to nothing either socially or in the media about gay, lesbian or male to female rape being the butt of jokes. That's because almost everyone finds the idea of rape to be repulsive.

Lots of men joke about rape, and I'm not talking about movies or TV. Some of my own friends have joked about rape, into their 30s too. At school rape jokes and throwaway jokey comments like "rape the bitch" were pretty common. "You call it rape, I call it surprise sex" is a common euphemism. Men engage in this sort of stuff all the time. "Locker room talk", I think they call it now, though I don't recognise the term "locker room".

Here's some "locker room" joking about the complainant:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-43654109

Quote from: sid waddell on April 04, 2018, 02:07:45 PM
Using the utterly bogus argument of "personal responsibility" to mitigate the heinous crime of rape. There is no such a thing as the responsibility of a person to not be the victim of a crime, only the responsibility of a person to not commit a crime.

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 04, 2018, 08:33:59 PM
Now this is one I call bullsh*t on. If I left my home for several hours with the front door deliberatly left wide open and then I return to find the TV and furniture stolen and the living room and kitchen vandalised do you think that the police and my neighbours are going to be sympathetic to me, not to mention my home contents insurance provider? Talking about personal responsibility in such a scenario like rape isn't about victim blaming. It is about being empowered with the knowledge to not fall yourself into scenarios that leave you in a vulnerable position where you can become a victim of crime. I'd say most of us have been involved in situations where in hindsight we were fortunate nothing bad occoured to us or people we know, and the lesson is supposed to be learned from it. The younger we are the more naive we are, so it makes good sense to tell those in their teens & early 20's on how to protect themselves. If we are to imply that for example young women don't need to be told not to put themselves into certain situations because of a greater risk a man might commit a sexual crime on them otherwise, then there's a problem here on several fronts. First, it's an infantile attitude to such women which is not deserving of them in general. Secondly it implies that women somehow have less agency then men - there will be a lot of women who'd kick yer arse if you suggested that they aren't able to take care of themselves the same way that men are supposed to. Thirdly, it reinforces sexist, mysogynistic and patriarchal attitudes that women cannot take responsibility at the same level as men, and that men should be making decisions for women. Fourthly, it is demeaning to male rape victims with the implication that they as a man should have known better. Finally, it also ignores than a woman can also be the perpatrator of a sexual crime on men - reported statistics indicate that although this is notably less common than the other way around, it does happen - and such reported incidents appear to be growing, wherever it's because there is an actual increase in such incidents taking place or wherever they are being more commonly reported (or both) is up for debate.

No one is a deserving victim of a crime, but it is the height of foolishness to either yourself or a loved one to be left as one when you either did not take or did not inform simple steps to help protect oneself. Ideally crime shouldn't exist, but it does, there's no getting away from it. Knowledge is power and keeping people stupid, or making assumptions that they are, definitely aren't the right way to go.

You misunderstand the difference between somebody taking common sense steps to protect themselves, or friends or family telling them to take such - which are perfectly normal and sensible things to do - and victim blaming if they do not.

George Hook asked the rhetorical question, "is there no blame now to the person who puts themselves in danger?".

The first thing is that perceptions of putting yourself in danger will differ. I've read people say that the complainant in the Belfast trial put herself in danger by going back to Jackson's house. Which to me seems an entirely reasonable thing to have done on her part. Why should she expect to be raped or sexually assaulted in such a situation? The same goes for the woman in the Otto Putland rape case, the case Hook was commenting about, who went to the man's hotel room to have consensual sex. Are women who have one night stands putting themselves in danger? Should they automatically assume they are?

Patrick Freyne summed up this double bind beautifully:
QuoteHave I this straight, misogynists? Assuming men might rape insults all men, but if women DON'T assume they might be raped, they're to blame that sounds like the type of no-win situation that would suggest we have a rape culture.
https://twitter.com/PatrickFreyne1/status/907540309944434688

A woman who worked with my father was raped and murdered one night before Christmas over 20 years ago as she walked home alone after getting off a 4am Nitelink bus in Dublin. Was that "putting herself in danger"? Did she bear any "personal responsibility" for her own rape and murder?

I mean, she could have got a taxi, but didn't. But even then, a taxi driver could have attacked her. So are we to say that all women should never be alone late at night?

Did Manuela Riedo bear any personal responsibility for her own rape and murder on a dark lane beside the railway in Galway?

The "personal responsibility" mob overwhelmingly focus on the so called "personal responsibility" of the victim, which again, is not a thing. They rarely focus on the personal responsibility of the criminal.

The night of the Tipp-Kilkenny All-Ireland hurling final replay in 2014, I got a takeaway in Camden Street after leaving Flannery's. I was pissed and sat down to eat it on the kerb. A woman sat down beside me who was extremely drunk, on her own, her friends had gone home, she didn't know where she was and she could barely sit up straight, never mind walk straight. When I finished my takeaway I thought to myself that she was in an extremely vulnerable position so rather than leave her there, I decided to bring her back to my house, in which there were no other people that night, in a taxi so she could crash out. I showed her to one of the spare beds and she slept the night there, left at nine the next morning and I never saw her again.

Now, had I, for whatever reason, taken leave of my senses and decided to rape her, which would not have been difficult had I been so inclined, as I was at least a foot taller than her and far stronger, would she have been in any way to blame? Like hell she would. It would have been 100% my fault and my fault alone for committing a sickening crime and she would have been 0% to blame.

People should quite reasonably expect that they have the right to go to places, even to places most would not advise them to go to, and not expect to be attacked, and if they are, to not be apportioned any blame.

Of course all this conveniently leaves out the fact the vast majority of rapes are not of the stereotypical, nightmarish "rapist jumps out a laneway" variety, they occur in situations which are ostensibly far more benign.



Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 04, 2018, 08:33:59 PMIf we are to imply that for example young women don't need to be told not to put themselves into certain situations because of a greater risk a man might commit a sexual crime on them otherwise, then there's a problem here on several fronts. First, it's an infantile attitude to such women which is not deserving of them in general. Secondly it implies that women somehow have less agency then men - there will be a lot of women who'd kick yer arse if you suggested that they aren't able to take care of themselves the same way that men are supposed to. Thirdly, it reinforces sexist, mysogynistic and patriarchal attitudes that women cannot take responsibility at the same level as men, and that men should be making decisions for women.

To come back to this particular passage, I'm sorry, but it makes no sense to me and appears contradictory.

First of all you state that young women should be told to take steps not to put themselves in harm's way. I've no problem with that. Same goes for young men.

But then you state that if they're not told such, it betrays an infantile attitude towards young women,  implies they have less agency than men, are not able to take care of themselves to the same level as men, and reinforces patriarchal attitudes that men should be making decisions for women. This makes no sense. Not telling them what to do does the opposite of those things – it is leaving the young woman to make her own decisions as to what to do and giving her agency.

But again - I've no problem at all with family or friends giving advice to young women in this regard.

It's yourself that is advocating for something that arguably reinforces all those attitudes (I wouldn't argue that -  but one can see how an argument can be made for it).



Quote from: sid waddell on April 04, 2018, 02:07:45 PM
A belief that women who wear certain clothes or get drunk are in any way at all responsible if they are raped. They aren't. There is no such a thing as a woman "asking for it".

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 04, 2018, 08:33:59 PM
The idea of a woman wearing something that indicates that "she's desperate for it" is one that I find is a lot less common than it used to be. I remember reading back in 2000 of a survey of Belfast third-level students where over 50% of both men and women agreed that if a female rape victim was wearing revealing or sexually suggestive clothing then she was partially responsible for it happening. Thankfully a lot of work has been in progress since then mostly through education.

Also, "there is no such a thing as a woman "asking for it"". Really? I think you'll find that a lot of women out there are sexually active, some go to pubs and clubs to engage in casual sex and one night stands etc. or feel in the mood when their partner isn't and so on. It's a falsehood along the lines of saying "there's no such thing as a man asking for it". None of that however is a justification for rape against either sex.
Asking for what? Consensual sex? I dare say many men and women go out hoping for the possibility that the night might end with consensual sex. But that's not what we're talking about.

We're talking about rape. And precisely no women go out "asking for" rape to be inflicted on them.


Quote from: sid waddell on April 04, 2018, 02:07:45 PM
Being influenced by porn that explicitly degrades women.

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 04, 2018, 08:33:59 PM
This needs to be put into context about what "degregation" is being done to women in certain types of porn. If you're talking about porn that features the likes of Max Hardcore then I'd definitely say that yes, that type of porn is degrading to women, but such content isn't very easy to get a hold of. You're very unlikely find it on the likes of P*rnHub, YouP*rn, RedTube etc. but such material has been available for decades where prior to internet availability they were often smuggled in as VHS tapes and used for shock value. On the other hand it is perfectly possible to find pornagraphic material that degrades men. Cuckold porn is one line I can think of from the top of my head.

If we're on about more "mainstream" p*rn that is much more accessible, there is a concern about how it may give teenagers unrealistic perceptions about sex that weren't around when I was a teenager because it wasn't as readily accessible - I'm talking about the likes of boys who has expectations to get a bl*w job on the first date, or girls whom are led to believe that having anal intercourse seems to be normal. It is worth asking however if in other countries have similar problems with their young women and men being exposed to such material that like in Ireland and Britain wasn't as readily available to the prior generation

In my view much of the content on mainstream porn sites is highly degrading to women. A quick search on PornHub for the word "slut" brings up 44,388 results. "Whore" brings up 13,901 results. It certainly doesn't end there. Most porn portrays a certain type of omnipotent, comic book alpha male. So men who watch it can often begin to have certain ideas of normative male sexual behaviour.

The problem with porn, especially since it is now available on tap, is that it is addictive. Before the internet, one might have seen porn once in the blue moon. I didn't see my first porn movie until I was 18. There was no chance to get addicted, you basically had to figure out sex for yourself.

The nature of all addictions is that you start off light, but then graduate to harder and harder stuff because what satisfied you before no longer does it. You go for extreme hits. In porn parlance that often means content that is violent or degrading. If a young man is watching violent or degrading porn, he might then feel an expectation to experience this for real. Blow jobs, ejaculating on the woman's face and swallowing seem to be the minimum expectatation that young men have from sex these days. The vast majority of porn focusses on male gratification, not female gratification.  The female is the one objectified, but her sexual gratification is generally pretty irrelevant. She's putting on a show for the entertainment of men.

And obviously, all porn feeds into an instant gratification culture.  People who feel the need for instant gratification are more likely to demand things to satisfy them. Especially when drink is involved, it's not hard to see how sex becomes that demand.

Quote from: sid waddell on April 04, 2018, 02:07:45 PM
Referring to women as animals in language, ie. as a pig in a "spit roast", or a "dog" or a "cow" or a "bitch". Other terms such as "bird", "chick" or "filly" may be less ostensibly hostile but they still portray women as animals.

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 04, 2018, 08:33:59 PM
So men are never referred to as pigs or cocks? Cow and bitch in my experience are more often used by women against other women than by men against women. As for bird, chick & filly, either I've stepped back into 1986 or a meetup of skangers/spides. Outside of them the only time I hear those words being used to describe women is with self-deprecating irony.

In comparison to women, men are rarely referred to as animals in language. The Gardai might be referred to as pigs, but that is more an insulting reference to the institution, and there are plenty of female Gardai.

The term "spit roast" is certainly degrading as it portrays not only an animal, but a dead one. Can you think of a term that portrays a man as a dead animal? Perhaps there are such terms but I can't think of any off hand.


Quote from: sid waddell on April 04, 2018, 02:07:45 PM
Referring to sex as something a man does to a woman, and in violent terms - "ruined her", "destroyed her", "pumped her", "smashed her," "ploughed her". So much of the language men use surrounding sex is based around violence.

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 04, 2018, 08:33:59 PM
Sex is something that a man does to a woman the same way as sex is something a woman does to a man. And being generally described in a hetreosexual PIV fashion involves thrusting from one or both partners physically. There isn't much in the words you mentioned that automatically suggest violence to me, not to mention women I know who've talked about having "wrecked" their man from the night before. What you're suggesting is starting to scrape the bottom of the mysogyny barrell.

You're both wrong and extremely naive about the thinking that young men have about this. Do you think JACOME and friends had the idea that sex is something a woman does to a man equally? They did in their hat. And I'd strongly suggest that they are by no means unrepresentative of young men.

"Ruined", "destroyed", "smashed", "banged" "nailed", "wrecking" are all violent words, all are extremely common euphemisms for sex, and far more commonly used by men.


Quote from: sid waddell on April 04, 2018, 02:07:45 PM
Using deliberately degrading terms for women - "sluts", "whores", "brasses", "slags" etc., while referring to men as "legends", "top shaggers", "swordsmen" etc.

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 04, 2018, 08:33:59 PM
You do realise that those terms describing women in a degrading fashion are used by both men and women? As for the male terms, "legends" I've heard of, "swordsmen" must be something in Dublin because I've never heard of it used in such a context. As for "top shaggers" lots of male posters in this thread were calling that out for being the sign of a shitehawk.

Can you name me any similarly insulting equivalent terms used for men, especially straight men?

Remember also that one of the biggest insults in the English language is a slang word for a vagina. And that's a word I've used many, many times myself.

sid waddell

Quote from: sid waddell on April 04, 2018, 02:07:45 PM
The assumption of male power and male primacy, the notion that what women want is "a real man" (never mind that most men who have this idea are pathetic, weak ignoramuses who have a clue what a real man is).

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 04, 2018, 08:33:59 PM
Ireland has for thousands of years been a male-dominated society. Change to a more gender-equal society doesn't happen overnight and requires a lot of social norms to be challenged on an ongoing basis. However that works both ways in that in the likes of traditionally female dominated occupations there is still a fair bit of resistance from both men and women for men to enter such professions. For example how many male midwife's are there?

As for what women "want", different hetreo men have different perceptions as to what makes themselves attractive to the opposite sex and what doesn't. Shock horror! Either they'll find a woman whom has an easy submissive nature to him, or they're in for a rude shock! That also applies in reverse as to hetreo women's perceptions in attracting a man, and also to same-sex relationships. And I'd also challenge any definition of what a "real man" is the same way as how to define a "real woman". To me there is no such thing as a "real" man or woman except in the biological sense. What a lot of people see as "real" is down to generations of social construct that have been progressively challenged now for the last few decades, and for men and women these days there is far more tolerance even in more conservative areas for lifestyles, interests etc. that aren't seen as the norm

Most of that resistance comes from men themselves, who tend to feel a stigma or shame from going into traditionally female-dominated occupations. And that's precisely because outdated social constructs still exist in many male minds.

Rape culture is a regressive movement towards reinforcing outdated social constructs. It is intrinsically linked to the idea of male power and primacy.

Traditional male identity tended towards the idea of physical labour and working with your hands. Many if not most of those jobs are gone now and sedentary jobs predominate, the prospects of owning an affordable home have declined.

As I've previously stated, much of rape culture is loosely linked to the alt-right, which has flourished as a backlash due to the decline of traditional manual labour and a diminishing of certainties that are perceived to have been afforded to previous generations. The alt-right is intrinsically linked to male power and primacy and the idea of females as subservient. They go hand in hand. It's a simplistic backlash against "political correctness" and is a farcical longing for a simplistic return to a time when white males ruled the roost unchallenged. The alt-right is ignorance, revelling in ignorance, boorishness and nihilism. It imagines itself giving a two fingers to "the establishment".

One certainly doesnt have to subscribe to alt-right culture to subscribe to elements of rape culture, but it helps.

Alt-righters have a comic book verion of masculinity. As masculinity is perceived to be "under threat", they look to boorish oafs like Trump and McGregor to provide a model for themselves because they perceive these sort of men to be the epitome of alpha maleness. Trump and McGregor have a particular idea of what a "real woman" is. One who looks pretty and does what they want. Others who don't subscribe to alt-right culture but may find themselves subconsciously influenced by it find themselves looking to McGregor too. He says what he wants, he's ignorant, he's violent, he fucks hookers and snorts cocaine off them. He's the perfect model for young men who feel their masculinity is under threat to try and emulate.

I suspect many young men who have this sort of idea of what a "real man" is are indeed in for a rude awakening when they are looking to find partners.

Quote from: sid waddell on April 04, 2018, 02:07:45 PM
The assumption that female protest is crazy, irrelevant and illegitimate.

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 04, 2018, 08:33:59 PM
The right to a peaceful protest is a democratic cornerstone in most of the First World. It is also an equal right to criticise in public the relevant points being brought up by such protests without prejudice. If you want to bring up something in a public forum you don't have the right not to be challenged on it.

I don't see very much genuine challenge from men. I read a lot of ridicule, dismissal, stereotyping of protestors as being man-haters or "feminazis" or all having pink or purple hair, and facetious calls for them to go away and shut up.

Quote from: sid waddell on April 04, 2018, 02:07:45 PM
The denial that there is a problem with any of the above.

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 04, 2018, 08:33:59 PM
And here we fall into the trap of the circular reasoning fallacy.

"There is definitely an existence of God and anyone who says otherwise is in denial..."
"I don't see any firm evidence that God does exist..."
"...SEE!!!!!11 YOU'RE PROVING MY POINT!!!1"

The argument of "I'm right, you're wrong and anyone who disagrees just isn't able to see it" without showing any testable evidence is something most rational people grow out of beyond their teenage years.
You've offered little enough genuine challenge to my points. You've offered a lot of tangential points, deflections and denials based on the exact reasoning you're claiming to be against here.

Quote from: sid waddell on April 04, 2018, 02:07:45 PM
Subscribing to or engaging with any one of those notions is subscribing to and engaging with rape culture. Obviously the more elements one subscribes to, the more entwined with such a culture one is.

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 04, 2018, 08:33:59 PM
Congratulations. You have managed to make the term "rape culture" become a snarl phrase in an attempt to deligitimise any contary opinions to your own in the same fashion as those whom thrown around "cuck" and "social justice warrior".

I'm not trying to deligitimise opinions contrary to my own at all. I welcome genuine attempts to challenge my points. The list I wrote earlier is a list of undoubtedly malign and misogynist tropes and behaviours. You've provided what are in my view some very unconvincing challenges to certain ones. But your main problem, as becomes apparent in your paragraph above, appears to be with language, because you feel it's too "confrontational". Confrontation of things that need to be confronted is necessary. Advances in civil rights and changing the way society thinks about certain issues were all won by confrontation.

Almost always, those who don't like confronting a culture are never its victims.

Rape culture exists, and rather than pussyfooting around and making excuses for it, it needs to be confronted and obliterated.

Aughafad


sid waddell

Quote from: sid waddell on April 04, 2018, 02:07:45 PM
Such a culture is perpetuated, amazingly enough, by males - primarily, but by no means exclusively, younger males, who don't know a lot about about the real world.

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 04, 2018, 08:33:59 PM
First off, what makes you an authority of what "the real world" is? Secondly, as I've mentioned many times already, if such a thing can be called a culture then there are plenty of women that perpatrate it as well as men.

I think you'll find that in the real world, the concept of consent is a big deal. Read the stats again. There are plenty of Irish people, primarily men, because let's face it, hordes of women are not going around raping men, who have a problem with this.

Quote from: sid waddell on April 04, 2018, 02:07:45 PM
Such a culture is by no means exclusive to alt-right-minded people, but it is a culture which is synonymous with alt-right thinking - the idea of the pick up artist movement that women are effectively robots there to be manipulated and "won" like trophies, the notion that a woman's place is in the home, that women should not do certain jobs or play certain sports.

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 04, 2018, 08:33:59 PM
And once again you seek to deligitimse opposition to your point by trying to associate it with a bunch of absolute arseholes and to take it to extreme absurdities. For example...

"The Nazis banned smoking on public transport. Therefore anyone who supports banning smoking on public transport is a Nazi".

This type of intellectual dishonesty is something that Glenn Beck has been notorious in using. Do you really want to be compared with him?

But people who subscribe to rape culture are arseholes. Pick up artistry is inherently associated with the alt-right and does treat women as effectively robots to be manipulated and won. The notions that a woman's place is in the home or that women shouldn't play certain sports are reactionary right, misogynist viewpoints. Misogynism is an essential element of rape culture.

What's worse than Godwin's Law is trying to project Godwin's Law onto the person you're debating with.

Intellectual dishonesty, eh?

Quote from: sid waddell on April 04, 2018, 02:07:45 PM
The weird thing is that I find there is a big crossover between self proclaimed "law and order" types and those who subscribe to at least some elements of rape culture. Victims of rape or tend not to be uppermost in such people's minds, nor does the admission that there might be a problem in how young men think about consent, nor is light sentencing for rapists. Yet rape is the second most serious crime there is, after murder.

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 04, 2018, 08:33:59 PM
You will find that most victims of crime (proven or assumed) tend not to be in most people's minds beyond a short period of time unless they either have some sort of vested interest like a family member or local person, or they are used as part of a media crusade e.g. the McCanns. Another reason that rape survivors are probably not in the general conscience of society is, ironically, because of their legal anonymity. It is difficult to put a face, a voice or a name to either a person or a group of people that are anonymous. There is a valid debate about how sections of our society approach the issue of consent for sexual activity, but using an emotive phrase as bait does nothing to really address that.

Rape is rarely considered a "law and order" or a "crime" issue. What high profile, self proclaimed "law and order" politicians in the "west" do you hear making rape and sexual abuse in general a big issue? Those that do talk about rape and sexual abuse only use it to whip up discrimination against Muslims (and I'm not saying Muslim cultures don't have a problem with misogyny or rape culture - they do). When it comes to native white populations, they're silent.

Most people relegate it to that oh so cute category that can be so easily be ignored - "women's issues".

I bet anything if you ask most people on the street to name three "crime" issues in this country right now, they won't mention rape or sexual abuse. They'll likely mention the Dublin drug gangs, Travellers stealing, assaults on the streets after the pubs and clubs close, burglaries etc.

One in five women in Ireland experience sexual violence. Now, if one in five people in Ireland had, say been the victim of gun violence, do you think we'd consider that a problem? Would we call it a gun violence culture? Or would that consitute "snarl words" for you?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/over-one-in-three-sexual-assault-victims-are-students-cork-centre-says-1.3134780?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fireland%2Firish-news%2Fover-one-in-three-sexual-assault-victims-are-students-cork-centre-says-1.3134780

One in four females students at Trinity who responded to a survey say they have been the victims of sexual assault.
http://trinitynews.ie/one-in-four-female-tcd-students-sexually-assaulted-survey/

One in seven UCC students say they have been the victims of rape or serious sexual assault by only one in four of these victims report it.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/1-in-7-ucc-students-were-victims-of-rape-or-sex-assault-319537.html

Only with rape and sexual assault could such a problem be played down to such an extent and  people object to saying there is a culture of such crimes, when there clearly is.

Which self proclaimed "law and order" politicians or "advocates" complained about these?

QuoteA man who regularly raped and sexually assaulted his girlfriend in her sleep has received a suspended sentence of seven years imprisonment.


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/circuit-court/no-jail-term-for-man-25-who-raped-girlfriend-while-she-slept-1.2283327?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fcrime-and-law%2Fcourts%2Fcircuit-court%2Fno-jail-term-for-man-25-who-raped-girlfriend-while-she-slept-1.2283327

Quote
A businessman has been jailed for six months for attacking and sexually assaulting a woman on Griffith Avenue in Dublin in October 2010.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0730/331210-lyons-jailed-for-six-months-for-sexual-assault/



Quote from: sid waddell on April 04, 2018, 02:07:45 PM
Also, I think you'll find a great deal of crossover between men who subscribe to any or all elements of rape culture and those who oppose the repeal of the 8th Amendment - another tool of control for men over women.

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 04, 2018, 08:33:59 PM
Nice strawman. What's your reasoning for women whom oppose repealing the 8th?

Decades of indoctrination by the Catholic Church would go a large part of the way to explaining it, as it did with opposition to decriminalisation of homosexuality, civil partnerships and same sex marriage, opposition to contraception and divorce and opposition to the X Case legislation.

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 04, 2018, 08:33:59 PM
To conclude, "rape culture" exists in this element simply as a snarl word. It has little to no subjective, testable evidence that has and/or can be measured across Irish society.

I've given you plenty of evidence.

Here's some more.

QuoteA new survey of students has found that 8% of females and 3% of males were certain someone had sexual contact with them when they were unable to provide consent because they were drunk, passed out or otherwise incapacitated in the past year.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/8-of-female-students-report-sexual-contact-without-consent-464757.html

In Britain, one in 10 women has been raped, and more than a third subjected to sexual assault.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/unreported-rapes-the-silent-shame-7561636.html

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 04, 2018, 08:33:59 PM
It's a media soundbite/slogan that ultimately cheapens the word "rape" and the crime that is associated with it, diminishing its hard value by putting it next to scenarios that wouldn't even be considered minor levels of sexual assault or outright mysogyny. A few arguments that were made might be tangible enough to point to a culture of mysogyny in certain sections of the Irish population but targetting that in isolation can lead to unintended consequences.

You can call it a media soundbyte all you want. Rape culture exists on a spectrum, but it all feeds upwards towards the sharp end, and the sharp end is widespread sexual assault and rape.

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 04, 2018, 08:33:59 PM
Just to make clear, my point of view is that to address the issues regarding sexual conduct and consent, is that it needs to involve Irish society as a whole and not just a portion of it. That means this includes men, women, third-genders, white, black, Asian, hetreosexuals, homosexuals, bisexuals, teenagers, senior citizens, "natives", foreigners, travellers etc. while by focusing on female survivors of rape perpatrated by males only attempts to address a part of the issue and one in isolation can be easily abused and manipulated to serve certain interests whereas it's more difficult to steer a narritave when it concerns all residents and visitors from around 12 year old and up. I said a few days ago that IMO the like of the #ibelieveher movement is inadvertantly helping to support sexism etc. and hopefully the above explains my reasons - being played for by a fringe group within the feminist movement that unlike the mainstream which seeks to equalise gender roles in society (unless there are compelling reasons otherwise) where a person's ability should not be determined by their gender, women - and men - within this sub group's primary motivation is to punish men as a whole for the sins of other men and those of their fathers, uncles, grandfathers etc. against women whilst ignoring sins made by women against men (yes, they exist). I don't see that as progressive. Under the law of both sides of the border we as individual adults are deemed, with the exception of those whom are deemed to not be able to give agency, to be equal in the eyes of the law. On that front whilst I recognise that male on female sexual assault and rape is significantly the most common type it is most certainly not exclusive. A male rape survivor is no less or more entitled to support for their experience than a female rape survivor. There should be no competition whatsoever in looking to rank different rape survivors either by gender or sexual orientation. If there was a movement to "equalise" sexual crime laws I would fully support it - but I can't back what has been happening because to me it is promoting an "us vs. them" approach to justice.
Who says a male or non gender-binary rape survior is not equally entitled to support than a female rape survivor?

What is your evidence for saying anybody wants to "punish men as a whole"? Nice imagined victimhood.

To address the problems facing not just Irish but all societies regarding rape and sexual assault, education and confrontation is necessary. That should mean mandatory consent classes at school but also calling out and challenging the prevailing culture for what it is.

The only people whose backs are got up by such confrontation are those who subscribe to such a culture and feel they have something to lose.

quit yo jibbajabba


Milltown Row2

Quote from: quit yo jibbajabba on April 05, 2018, 04:28:29 PM
jesus fuckin wept

Dog with a bone!! He'd be some craic out on the town!
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

Tony Baloney


Orchard park

Quote from: sid waddell on April 05, 2018, 04:26:05 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on April 04, 2018, 02:07:45 PM
Such a culture is perpetuated, amazingly enough, by males - primarily, but by no means exclusively, younger males, who don't know a lot about about the real world.

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 04, 2018, 08:33:59 PM
First off, what makes you an authority of what "the real world" is? Secondly, as I've mentioned many times already, if such a thing can be called a culture then there are plenty of women that perpatrate it as well as men.

I think you'll find that in the real world, the concept of consent is a big deal. Read the stats again. There are plenty of Irish people, primarily men, because let's face it, hordes of women are not going around raping men, who have a problem with this.

Quote from: sid waddell on April 04, 2018, 02:07:45 PM
Such a culture is by no means exclusive to alt-right-minded people, but it is a culture which is synonymous with alt-right thinking - the idea of the pick up artist movement that women are effectively robots there to be manipulated and "won" like trophies, the notion that a woman's place is in the home, that women should not do certain jobs or play certain sports.

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 04, 2018, 08:33:59 PM
And once again you seek to deligitimse opposition to your point by trying to associate it with a bunch of absolute arseholes and to take it to extreme absurdities. For example...

"The Nazis banned smoking on public transport. Therefore anyone who supports banning smoking on public transport is a Nazi".

This type of intellectual dishonesty is something that Glenn Beck has been notorious in using. Do you really want to be compared with him?

But people who subscribe to rape culture are arseholes. Pick up artistry is inherently associated with the alt-right and does treat women as effectively robots to be manipulated and won. The notions that a woman's place is in the home or that women shouldn't play certain sports are reactionary right, misogynist viewpoints. Misogynism is an essential element of rape culture.

What's worse than Godwin's Law is trying to project Godwin's Law onto the person you're debating with.

Intellectual dishonesty, eh?

Quote from: sid waddell on April 04, 2018, 02:07:45 PM
The weird thing is that I find there is a big crossover between self proclaimed "law and order" types and those who subscribe to at least some elements of rape culture. Victims of rape or tend not to be uppermost in such people's minds, nor does the admission that there might be a problem in how young men think about consent, nor is light sentencing for rapists. Yet rape is the second most serious crime there is, after murder.

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 04, 2018, 08:33:59 PM
You will find that most victims of crime (proven or assumed) tend not to be in most people's minds beyond a short period of time unless they either have some sort of vested interest like a family member or local person, or they are used as part of a media crusade e.g. the McCanns. Another reason that rape survivors are probably not in the general conscience of society is, ironically, because of their legal anonymity. It is difficult to put a face, a voice or a name to either a person or a group of people that are anonymous. There is a valid debate about how sections of our society approach the issue of consent for sexual activity, but using an emotive phrase as bait does nothing to really address that.

Rape is rarely considered a "law and order" or a "crime" issue. What high profile, self proclaimed "law and order" politicians in the "west" do you hear making rape and sexual abuse in general a big issue? Those that do talk about rape and sexual abuse only use it to whip up discrimination against Muslims (and I'm not saying Muslim cultures don't have a problem with misogyny or rape culture - they do). When it comes to native white populations, they're silent.

Most people relegate it to that oh so cute category that can be so easily be ignored - "women's issues".

I bet anything if you ask most people on the street to name three "crime" issues in this country right now, they won't mention rape or sexual abuse. They'll likely mention the Dublin drug gangs, Travellers stealing, assaults on the streets after the pubs and clubs close, burglaries etc.

One in five women in Ireland experience sexual violence. Now, if one in five people in Ireland had, say been the victim of gun violence, do you think we'd consider that a problem? Would we call it a gun violence culture? Or would that consitute "snarl words" for you?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/over-one-in-three-sexual-assault-victims-are-students-cork-centre-says-1.3134780?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fireland%2Firish-news%2Fover-one-in-three-sexual-assault-victims-are-students-cork-centre-says-1.3134780

One in four females students at Trinity who responded to a survey say they have been the victims of sexual assault.
http://trinitynews.ie/one-in-four-female-tcd-students-sexually-assaulted-survey/

One in seven UCC students say they have been the victims of rape or serious sexual assault by only one in four of these victims report it.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/1-in-7-ucc-students-were-victims-of-rape-or-sex-assault-319537.html

Only with rape and sexual assault could such a problem be played down to such an extent and  people object to saying there is a culture of such crimes, when there clearly is.

Which self proclaimed "law and order" politicians or "advocates" complained about these?

QuoteA man who regularly raped and sexually assaulted his girlfriend in her sleep has received a suspended sentence of seven years imprisonment.


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/circuit-court/no-jail-term-for-man-25-who-raped-girlfriend-while-she-slept-1.2283327?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fcrime-and-law%2Fcourts%2Fcircuit-court%2Fno-jail-term-for-man-25-who-raped-girlfriend-while-she-slept-1.2283327

Quote
A businessman has been jailed for six months for attacking and sexually assaulting a woman on Griffith Avenue in Dublin in October 2010.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0730/331210-lyons-jailed-for-six-months-for-sexual-assault/



Quote from: sid waddell on April 04, 2018, 02:07:45 PM
Also, I think you'll find a great deal of crossover between men who subscribe to any or all elements of rape culture and those who oppose the repeal of the 8th Amendment - another tool of control for men over women.

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 04, 2018, 08:33:59 PM
Nice strawman. What's your reasoning for women whom oppose repealing the 8th?

Decades of indoctrination by the Catholic Church would go a large part of the way to explaining it, as it did with opposition to decriminalisation of homosexuality, civil partnerships and same sex marriage, opposition to contraception and divorce and opposition to the X Case legislation.

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 04, 2018, 08:33:59 PM
To conclude, "rape culture" exists in this element simply as a snarl word. It has little to no subjective, testable evidence that has and/or can be measured across Irish society.

I've given you plenty of evidence.

Here's some more.

QuoteA new survey of students has found that 8% of females and 3% of males were certain someone had sexual contact with them when they were unable to provide consent because they were drunk, passed out or otherwise incapacitated in the past year.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/8-of-female-students-report-sexual-contact-without-consent-464757.html

In Britain, one in 10 women has been raped, and more than a third subjected to sexual assault.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/unreported-rapes-the-silent-shame-7561636.html

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 04, 2018, 08:33:59 PM
It's a media soundbite/slogan that ultimately cheapens the word "rape" and the crime that is associated with it, diminishing its hard value by putting it next to scenarios that wouldn't even be considered minor levels of sexual assault or outright mysogyny. A few arguments that were made might be tangible enough to point to a culture of mysogyny in certain sections of the Irish population but targetting that in isolation can lead to unintended consequences.

You can call it a media soundbyte all you want. Rape culture exists on a spectrum, but it all feeds upwards towards the sharp end, and the sharp end is widespread sexual assault and rape.

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 04, 2018, 08:33:59 PM
Just to make clear, my point of view is that to address the issues regarding sexual conduct and consent, is that it needs to involve Irish society as a whole and not just a portion of it. That means this includes men, women, third-genders, white, black, Asian, hetreosexuals, homosexuals, bisexuals, teenagers, senior citizens, "natives", foreigners, travellers etc. while by focusing on female survivors of rape perpatrated by males only attempts to address a part of the issue and one in isolation can be easily abused and manipulated to serve certain interests whereas it's more difficult to steer a narritave when it concerns all residents and visitors from around 12 year old and up. I said a few days ago that IMO the like of the #ibelieveher movement is inadvertantly helping to support sexism etc. and hopefully the above explains my reasons - being played for by a fringe group within the feminist movement that unlike the mainstream which seeks to equalise gender roles in society (unless there are compelling reasons otherwise) where a person's ability should not be determined by their gender, women - and men - within this sub group's primary motivation is to punish men as a whole for the sins of other men and those of their fathers, uncles, grandfathers etc. against women whilst ignoring sins made by women against men (yes, they exist). I don't see that as progressive. Under the law of both sides of the border we as individual adults are deemed, with the exception of those whom are deemed to not be able to give agency, to be equal in the eyes of the law. On that front whilst I recognise that male on female sexual assault and rape is significantly the most common type it is most certainly not exclusive. A male rape survivor is no less or more entitled to support for their experience than a female rape survivor. There should be no competition whatsoever in looking to rank different rape survivors either by gender or sexual orientation. If there was a movement to "equalise" sexual crime laws I would fully support it - but I can't back what has been happening because to me it is promoting an "us vs. them" approach to justice.
Who says a male or non gender-binary rape survior is not equally entitled to support than a female rape survivor?

What is your evidence for saying anybody wants to "punish men as a whole"? Nice imagined victimhood.

To address the problems facing not just Irish but all societies regarding rape and sexual assault, education and confrontation is necessary. That should mean mandatory consent classes at school but also calling out and challenging the prevailing culture for what it is.

The only people whose backs are got up by such confrontation are those who subscribe to such a culture and feel they have something to lose.

are you the same Sid Waddell who thought it humour to write about shagging Margaret Keady within a week of her late husband dying ???????????

standards ????