Armagh Club football & hurling

[nashville]

Tell me about it BC1, and I am by no means claiming we are the only team this happens to as I am sure the Ogs and to a lesser extent rural teams are effected by young lads leaving, but Harps were Feile champions 2000 and 2001, they were young lads who were County Champions, and for 30 to have quit football by their first year senior i.e. 2006, there isnt a hope in hell of the Harps ever doing anything. I remember that they defeated Cross in the final, and I would assume that team would have consisted of David McKenna, Hanratty, Paul Kernan, McKeown, Carragher and a few more of the lads who are now All-Ireland champions!

I feel like I have to cover my back for fear of getting rounded on by other club followers so I will say that whilst I am well aware that these boys may not have progressed as much as Kernan or McKenna etc, there is no chance at all that they can when they quit. 30 players from ONE age group. That is only the tip of the Iceberg, i think a few years later we had 7 (possibly county minors, of them only Vernon and Sean Morrisson play. Losing 5 players of that standard who would have been senior the next year highlights the problem.

I know every team has these problems e.g. Portadown or Lurgan lose boys to soccer or drink, but these teams didn't have underage squads winning County Feiles and 2 County Minors in a row, 2 Ulster Minor final appearances in a row, winning the 2nd one. Sad sad state of affairs. The fact that Cross can hang onto their players as BC1 highlighted is perhaps an insight into why they are so far ahead of everyone else. If McKenna, Paul Kernan, Johnny Hanratty, Kyle Carragher, Paul McKeown quit before senior the effect would be felt, certainly not to the extent the Harps have, but still somewhat felt.

[brokencrossbar1]

It was easier to keep the likes of McKenna and the Kernans interested as they were coming onto a successful team so we were lucky there.  I think the bigger factor is that the Feile team I played on 20 years ago still has 6 players on the squad(actually 7) with 5 of them guaranteed starters and one a regular starter and the other a regular sub.  We brought through 12-13 players from the one squad who stuck through it when there was no success, like the Harps face now.  It is easier for Cross now than any other time in the last 15 years in my view to keep success going.

[The Iceman]

Chucky, Nippy, Mini and my favourite JUNGLE!!!

you forgot HARPO

[illdecide]

Tell me about it BC1, and I am by no means claiming we are the only team this happens to as I am sure the Ogs and to a lesser extent rural teams are effected by young lads leaving, but Harps were Feile champions 2000 and 2001, they were young lads who were County Champions, and for 30 to have quit football by their first year senior i.e. 2006, there isnt a hope in hell of the Harps ever doing anything. I remember that they defeated Cross in the final, and I would assume that team would have consisted of David McKenna, Hanratty, Paul Kernan, McKeown, Carragher and a few more of the lads who are now All-Ireland champions!

I feel like I have to cover my back for fear of getting rounded on by other club followers so I will say that whilst I am well aware that these boys may not have progressed as much as Kernan or McKenna etc, there is no chance at all that they can when they quit. 30 players from ONE age group. That is only the tip of the Iceberg, i think a few years later we had 7 (possibly county minors, of them only Vernon and Sean Morrisson play. Losing 5 players of that standard who would have been senior the next year highlights the problem.

I know every team has these problems e.g. Portadown or Lurgan lose boys to soccer or drink, but these teams didn't have underage squads winning County Feiles and 2 County Minors in a row, 2 Ulster Minor final appearances in a row, winning the 2nd one. Sad sad state of affairs. The fact that Cross can hang onto their players as BC1 highlighted is perhaps an insight into why they are so far ahead of everyone else. If McKenna, Paul Kernan, Johnny Hanratty, Kyle Carragher, Paul McKeown quit before senior the effect would be felt, certainly not to the extent the Harps have, but still somewhat felt.

Feck me thats unbelieveable. To loose that amount of players is shocking (we are in the same boat, whether the quality was as good as some of them players mentioned is another matter), most of the south Armagh clubs don't realise what the townies have to put up with regarding holding onto players (i know we have discussed this before on the board) but it's a shame and it's only getting worse. there is nothing the clubs can do about it as they can get the best coaching at under-age level and even win a few under-age trophey's but when they hit the age for riding and drinking they say "Adios Senior"

[Rufus T Firefly]

Missing 7/8 first team starters, not to mention the many many many more who have left the Harps since underage success e.g. I was talking to Martin McCoy and Kevin Kelly in the club after a game around 4 weeks ago, they told me that of the 30-something members of the County Armagh winning Feile Side in 2001 who travelled down south, they are the only 2 still playing. Says something about the state of affairs that 30 odd lads from just one age group can drop away. In dreamland, the Harps would certainly be the 2nd best team competing to be the best. Reality sucks.

That is dreadful Nahsville.

Of 3 Cross teams that went to the Feile Finals over the last 20 years or so the breakdown that played/play is probably something like this

1988 - 12 of us were on the senior squad for minimum 10 years, 6 are still playing.

1996 - 12 made the senior squad and 8-9 are still playing

2001 I think - about 7 of them have graduated to the senior squad.

So basically you have the core of the Cross squad is made up of those 3 teams with the likes of John D, added in.  If Harps cannot do something about this then there is only one road they will go.

To be fair BC, you and I have had this conversation before and I have been consistently trying to explain that this is a modern urban phenomenon. I am not going to get into exact stats here, but the Ogs and the Harps have underage success to match that of Cross, no doubt about it. Around the late eighties / early nineties we won a number of County Feile titles.

I recall, after running Cross to four points in the 2003 County semi-final, with a very young team, feeling elated with the manner of the perfromance and confidently predicting a Senior Title in five years. Half of that team is gone and with it dreams turned to dust. This time last year I named a Harps fifteen who had played County football (minor / Senior), were still of footballing age and who were not playing football at all - the reality of our situation. Meanwhile, a matter of weeks ago I go up to Cross and watch a young team hammer our Seniors - a young team made up of promising young players who are beating down the door (and probably each other in training) to get onto the Senior Team, i.e. success breeding success.

That is the reason why I believe Cross could win twenty titles in a row.

[Diet Coke]

To be fair BC, you and I have had this conversation before and I have been consistently trying to explain that this is a modern urban phenomenon. I am not going to get into exact stats here, but the Ogs and the Harps have underage success to match that of Cross, no doubt about it. Around the late eighties / early nineties we won a number of County Feile titles.

I recall, after running Cross to four points in the 2003 County semi-final, with a very young team, feeling elated with the manner of the perfromance and confidently predicting a Senior Title in five years. Half of that team is gone and with it dreams turned to dust. This time last year I named a Harps fifteen who had played County football (minor / Senior), were still of footballing age and who were not playing football at all - the reality of our situation. Meanwhile, a matter of weeks ago I go up to Cross and watch a young team hammer our Seniors - a young team made up of promising young players who are beating down the door (and probably each other in training) to get onto the Senior Team, i.e. success breeding success.

That is the reason why I believe Cross could win twenty titles in a row.

COMMITMENT

Need I say more Rufus. Cross don't create "prima donnas", you are part of a great club, wear your colours with pride and respect.
Over the past number of years Harps seniors have had good managers, but I firmly believe it wouldn't matter if Micko himself took them. There are a handfull of players who are committed and I feel for them, but unfortunately not enough. If the Harps go down and I think they would need a miracle at this stage, they will find it very difficult to get back. Hope I'm wrong.

[winsamsoon]

Lads i sympathise with you in so many ways. Losing players to anything is terrible and it is one of the things that really frustrates me within the GAA. I know it ain't the fault of the GAA but i think they should do more to raise the profile of the sport in these particular difficult areas. There is nothing worse than watching a lad come through the under age ranks progressing year by year and then suddenly wen he gets 18 if you are lucky, that is the last you see of him. This same guy has all the ability in the world and although he doesn't realise it he carries the entire future, at least in terms of any success of your club on his shoulders. Some of the lads on this board would know exactly what i am geting at. But you know what is the worst feeling in the world. Years later when they have choose the path of drink ahead of Gaelic we meet these guys in the bar and all they can talk about is the years when they played football and at the end of it they wished they had never stopped. But for some reason they go awol in between and it costs so many clubs of a major chance of success. Bc Is 100% corect when he says Cross have easily kept younger players coming through because of the success. Others clubs are not having that success and it is strangling them, hence the situation outlined by one of the harps lads.

[brokencrossbar1]

Missing 7/8 first team starters, not to mention the many many many more who have left the Harps since underage success e.g. I was talking to Martin McCoy and Kevin Kelly in the club after a game around 4 weeks ago, they told me that of the 30-something members of the County Armagh winning Feile Side in 2001 who travelled down south, they are the only 2 still playing. Says something about the state of affairs that 30 odd lads from just one age group can drop away. In dreamland, the Harps would certainly be the 2nd best team competing to be the best. Reality sucks.

That is dreadful Nahsville.

Of 3 Cross teams that went to the Feile Finals over the last 20 years or so the breakdown that played/play is probably something like this

1988 - 12 of us were on the senior squad for minimum 10 years, 6 are still playing.

1996 - 12 made the senior squad and 8-9 are still playing

2001 I think - about 7 of them have graduated to the senior squad.

So basically you have the core of the Cross squad is made up of those 3 teams with the likes of John D, added in.  If Harps cannot do something about this then there is only one road they will go.

To be fair BC, you and I have had this conversation before and I have been consistently trying to explain that this is a modern urban phenomenon. I am not going to get into exact stats here, but the Ogs and the Harps have underage success to match that of Cross, no doubt about it. Around the late eighties / early nineties we won a number of County Feile titles.

I recall, after running Cross to four points in the 2003 County semi-final, with a very young team, feeling elated with the manner of the perfromance and confidently predicting a Senior Title in five years. Half of that team is gone and with it dreams turned to dust. This time last year I named a Harps fifteen who had played County football (minor / Senior), were still of footballing age and who were not playing football at all - the reality of our situation. Meanwhile, a matter of weeks ago I go up to Cross and watch a young team hammer our Seniors - a young team made up of promising young players who are beating down the door (and probably each other in training) to get onto the Senior Team, i.e. success breeding success.

That is the reason why I believe Cross could win twenty titles in a row.

I agree Rufus that urban clubs can face difficulties that county clubs don't.  However, the minset of the individuals involved is everything.  Down here in Cork the bedrock of the GAA is urban.  You have Nemo who produce the majority of Cork titles from a few housing estates in the south city area.  Douglas are historically their great rivals(they are next door to each other and were originally one club I believe until a split in the 50-60's, and they wear the same coloured jersies) who are one of the up and coming clubs, Na Piarsaigh who have the O Hailpins and Gardiner and have the best underage structure I have ever heard of in a club, Blackrock, Sarsfields and St Finnbarrs are all strong clubs. The Glen (who the great Christy Ring palyed for and who have 3-4 Cork hurling panellists) and Erins Own(Brian Corcoran's team) are both urban teams. Outside of the west cork football teams, (Castlehaven, Clonakilty) and Newtownshandrum and Cloyne in the hurling the main teams are all urban teams.  Midleton for instance won the AI hurling in the early 90's I think and the town is about the size of Lurgan.

Where I am going with this is that there are actually more pulls on players in Cork than the north.  There is not the same "cultural" divide with rugby down here and many players play both, soccer is huge with 2 LOI teams in Cork City and Cobh Ramblers, bastketball has a large presence with UCC Demons having a very successful set up and athletics feed off the success of Dervel O'Rourke and Sonia O'Sullivan.  Coupled with the place being a major tourist area and somewhere where people really know how to enjoy themselves, there are many things to distract.  Yet, they continually churn out successful sporting teams across the board.  Obviously there is a larger population but for instance Newtownshandrum has a similar population to Cross.  Nemo would remind me very much of the Harps in that they take the majority of their players at under age levels from 4-5 housing estatess the size of Drumbreda.

There is a culture in Armagh city, and I have had a nember of years of experience of this having tricked around Drumbreda myself for a few years, where the party is all there is.  That is not a unique thing to Armagh but is more prevalent in my experience.  When we made the breakthrough it was like that and unfortunately I think it will be a bigger factor than anything else in stopping the Harps make the step up.  I don't know about 20 in a row, as that would be arrogant, but it is not impossible.  The one thing that always motivates the Cross players is history, and the making of new history

[Onion Bag]

Anyone got any updated League tables

[corn02]

Dromintee play Cullyhanna tonight in another vital league match. If we win I think we will be safe. I believe if Sunday was not a draw the county boys were available. Would have been a massive boost, as would McKeever for Cullyhanna obviously. Hard rto know what way it will go.

[bennydorano]

If Armagh are beaten on Sunday they play the following week in the Qualifiers, if they win they play again in a fortnight, club championship looks fecked for a while I would think?

[corn02]

Defientely won't happen for a while yet.

[winsamsoon]

It shouldn't pose any problems for the senior championship as it ain't till september. I can't see that Armagh team being still in it in september unless there are drastic improvements.

[Yes I Would]

Was there not senior champ games in for mid August???

[qub la la la]

Was there not senior champ games in for mid August???

yes 15th/16th/17th august were the provisional dates. its the minor championship thats in september.