Leinster Senior Football Championship 2017

[OTF]

I disagree that we are where our available talent decrees we should be.

Again as I said weeks ago nobody is expecting us to be up there with Mayo, Dublin or Kerry. In fact, we are not even expecting really to be at Kildare's level.
But this doesn't mean we are among the bottom 8 teams in the country. Our league results and championship performance suggest we are.

On available talent; we haven't been setting the world alight at minor and u21 level. But we also haven't been losing to the likes of Offaly, Carlow, Westmeath and Wicklow on a regular basis.
Bar a brief period of about 10 years we never had consistently excellent minor teams AFAIK.

We are not very good. But we are better than Division 4 and we are better than they way last Sunday went. That would be my opinion.
Based on what? Based on the fact that it's only the top 3 or 4 teams in Leinster that beat us regularly at underage. Based on the fact that we were comfortable in Division 2 in 2013 & 2014, less so in 2015. Even in 2016 it came down to the last game before relegation.
Based on the fact that our county champions generally beat those from most counties (except Dublin).

I don't think that everything else is grand and it's all at Creedon's door.
But, this man has been backed, is being well paid and everything from discipline, fitness levels and game plans have been atrocious.

I've posted this before, since the 60's we have won 2 u21 Leinster titles each decade except the seventies and we got great returns from those teams. We were one ot the top underage counties look at the ROH there's no reason why we can't be still up there at underage at least.

[Target Man]

Clare, Down,Tipperary,Louth
Derry,Fermanagh, Armagh, Sligo, Offaly, longford,Westmeath, Wexford
Antrim, Laois, Carlow, Leitrim, Limerick,Waterford, Wicklow, London

Thats the bottom 20 teams according to league positions. Apart from Tipperary, who has had great underage success ? Who has a significantly better group of players than us? I would think we have as good players as at least 15 of those teams if not more. So I would think being a division 2 side is where this team could be if well managed, at the very least we should be comfortable in Division 3

Creedon has been very poor so far. No, I don't expect us to win All Irelands or Leinsters. I do expect us to do well against poor teams like Sligo, Antrim and Offaly. I also expect us to put in a battle against good (but not top) teams like Kildare, we might lose but we should at least be able to compete with them for most of the game. We dont have any divine right to beat teams I mentioned, but if the team is well prepared I dont see why we shouldn't.

Are there problems with our underage structure and player development? Absolutely, and we need to do work to improve them immediately. Are the players as good as we would like? Probably not. But Creedon hasn't got anywhere near the max out of them and himself and his management team are a substantial reason we have had disasterous results this year.

For those who think the manager doesn't matter, I could'nt disagree more. I'd be shocked if Jim Gavin couldn't have at least kept us in division 3, but I guess we'll never know. There are loads of examples of managers making a difference, its not the only factor but its an important factor. Colm Collins in Clare is a good example

Some of our players need also to take a serious look at their workrate and decision making in games. There are many of our more talented andexperienced players who are poor in these areas (I'm not questioning their commitment to Laois football, but it is a damning inditement of coaching they have received and their own ability to learn)

[Nameless]

Lads, this is basically the same squad we've had for the last 6/7 years. Yes some players are older now but they're not 35/36! How did we go from division 1/high division 2 to division 4? How did we go from challenging Dublin and Donegal in the latter stages of the championship to going out to teams like Clare and Antrim?
To me it's clear. O'Flatharta, Lillis and now Creeden. Amateur set ups have destroyed these players. While other counties have developed and improved their players, we've gone backwards. Physically, tactically, mentally, we're just nowhere near what these players are capable of. I'm not saying they are world beaters but they are far better than what they've shown for the past few years. It may be too late for them now.

It's 5 years since we challenged Dublin in 2012 all those lads were in their prime including Ross.
Gone are Healy POL Billy Clancy Boyle it's not the same panel or anything like it.

Let's not overestimate the ability of Billy, Clancy (at that stage of his career) and Boyle. They were no better than what we have now. Healy and O'Leary are big losses but we had no Kingston in 2012, Meaney was forced to play full back. You say they were in their prime so did they suddenly go out of it when losing to Tipperary the year after it? Antrim the year after that?
Look at the team that ran Donegal close:
Eoin Culliton (Timahoe); Paul Begley (Stradbally), Mark Timmons (Graiguecullen), Peter O'Leary (O'Dempsey's); Darren Strong (Emo), Kieran Lillis (Portlaoise), Padraig McMahon (Ballyroan Abbey); Padraig Clancy (Timahoe), John O'Loughlin (St Brigid's); Ross Munnelly (Arles-Kilcruise), Billy Sheehan (Emo), Colm Begley (Parnells); Conor Meredith (O'Dempsey's), Donal Kingston (Arles-Killeen), Evan O'Carroll (Crettyard).
This is the team that lost to Antrim:
G Brody; D O'Connor, M Timmons, S Attride; D Strong (0-02), G Hanrahan, C Begley; B Quigley, J O'Loughlin (0-01); N Donoher (0-01), C Boyle, E O'Carroll (0-01); R Munnelly (0-04, 2f), D Kingston (0-07, 1f), P Kingston (1-00).

It's the difference between a manager and set up getting the best out of players and other set ups doing the opposite.

[OTF]

Lads, this is basically the same squad we've had for the last 6/7 years. Yes some players are older now but they're not 35/36! How did we go from division 1/high division 2 to division 4? How did we go from challenging Dublin and Donegal in the latter stages of the championship to going out to teams like Clare and Antrim?
To me it's clear. O'Flatharta, Lillis and now Creeden. Amateur set ups have destroyed these players. While other counties have developed and improved their players, we've gone backwards. Physically, tactically, mentally, we're just nowhere near what these players are capable of. I'm not saying they are world beaters but they are far better than what they've shown for the past few years. It may be too late for them now.

It's 5 years since we challenged Dublin in 2012 all those lads were in their prime including Ross.
Gone are Healy POL Billy Clancy Boyle it's not the same panel or anything like it.

Let's not overestimate the ability of Billy, Clancy (at that stage of his career) and Boyle. They were no better than what we have now. Healy and O'Leary are big losses but we had no Kingston in 2012, Meaney was forced to play full back. You say they were in their prime so did they suddenly go out of it when losing to Tipperary the year after it? Antrim the year after that?
Look at the team that ran Donegal close:
Eoin Culliton (Timahoe); Paul Begley (Stradbally), Mark Timmons (Graiguecullen), Peter O'Leary (O'Dempsey's); Darren Strong (Emo), Kieran Lillis (Portlaoise), Padraig McMahon (Ballyroan Abbey); Padraig Clancy (Timahoe), John O'Loughlin (St Brigid's); Ross Munnelly (Arles-Kilcruise), Billy Sheehan (Emo), Colm Begley (Parnells); Conor Meredith (O'Dempsey's), Donal Kingston (Arles-Killeen), Evan O'Carroll (Crettyard).
This is the team that lost to Antrim:
G Brody; D O'Connor, M Timmons, S Attride; D Strong (0-02), G Hanrahan, C Begley; B Quigley, J O'Loughlin (0-01); N Donoher (0-01), C Boyle, E O'Carroll (0-01); R Munnelly (0-04, 2f), D Kingston (0-07, 1f), P Kingston (1-00).

It's the difference between a manager and set up getting the best out of players and other set ups doing the opposite.
[/quote

I'm disagreeing with very little of above especially McNulty and what replaced him.
Billy we'll disagree on ...a leader sadly lacking at the moment.
My point is a lot of the name are the same but they are not the same players.

[Don Draper]

Billy may have been a cuntball of a player to come up against, but he was one of the smartest we togged out in 20 years and his experience is sadly missed. We'd do well to consider getting him involved somehow.

[Keyser Söze]

Billy may have been a cuntball of a player to come up against, but he was one of the smartest we togged out in 20 years and his experience is sadly missed. We'd do well to consider getting him involved somehow.

I'd second that. There is a lot to be said for a fella who,, aware of technical limitations, presents in top physical condition and ready to go to war EVERYDAY! These guys usually have pretty good game intelligence.

[Nameless]

Yeah Billy always gave 100%. He still goes to all the games, after Creedon I agree that we could do a lot worse than having Billy involved in some capacity.

[OTF]

Billy may have been a cuntball of a player to come up against, but he was one of the smartest we togged out in 20 years and his experience is sadly missed. We'd do well to consider getting him involved somehow.

I agree 100%

However  I'd say that proposal wouldn't meet with universal approval.

[OTF]

From today's Irish times
Jim McGuinness: All counties equal, but some more equal than others
Amateur? Like Mr Seligman's dogs, most counties feel there's nothing they can do

We were in the television studio in Portlaoise early on Saturday so I got a perfect view of Dublin as they pulled into the ground. Everything about their arrival was impressive.
On the drive down, I noticed that the All-Ireland champions were 200/1 on to win and that Carlow, meanwhile, were 33/1. The scale of the odds disturbed me.
Everyone reads Animal Farm at some stage in school and there is a reason why that line about all animals being equal, but some are more equal than others, has become so widely quoted. You see it in all walks of life. More than ever, it has become the governing truth of Gaelic football.
Everything about Dublin's arrival looked sleek and polished and purposeful. It was an operation. The coach looked good. You could see they had a big support staff in their ranks. The players went about their business; the coaching staff prepared the pitch for their pre-match drills. Everyone had a clearly defined role and they followed it.

And on one level, it was wonderful to see the best team in an amateur sport achieving such a level of sophistication. Dublin have done everything possible to improve themselves as an entity over the last decade and this arrival was a visible manifestation of that.
It reminded me of the way Celtic operate on away days. But then you remember that the GAA is supposed to be an 'amateur organisation'. Maybe the definition of that term needs to be revisited now. Because there are at least two levels within Gaelic football now and the higher tier bears a scant resemblance to the meaning of amateurism as we used to understand it.
So I watched the teams warming up and wondered how we got to this point and where Gaelic football is going. I think the majority of counties are on the verge of relinquishing hope. And I believe that GAA headquarters needs to hold an intervention to save Gaelic football from itself.

There is no real opportunity for most young players in the majority of counties to excel
It is becoming obvious that the vast majority of county boards either don't have the willingness or the knowledge of how to live with the small group of elite counties that have set the standard for the past decade. So what can be done?
During the week, I caught some of a debate on the British election in which Jeremy Corbyn was hammering home the need to scrap tuition fees so that kids from all walks of life could get a fairer chance of a good education.
The statistics showed that kids from less privileged backgrounds just weren't getting the same opportunity in education, and therefore in life, as those from more advantaged backgrounds.
The same argument pertains in the GAA now. There is no real opportunity for most young players in the majority of counties to excel. We could see that in Portlaoise on Saturday. Carlow came with a clear, well-worked game plan and performed with boldness of intent and real courage. They were still soundly beaten by a Dublin team that was in third gear.
Deep down, the players on both sides and those of us watching knew there was a gulf between the sides. It's not about natural ability: it is about all the support systems behind Dublin and the other strong counties. It creates an environment of inequality.
If you are a Division Three or Four player trying to get ready to take on the elite players, how are you supposed to look your opponent in the eye and think: "I am ready for you." You cannot. Because you know that it's a lie.
Studying Dublin's record during the week I was astonished to see that they have lost just twice in Leinster since 2004. That has been turning around in my head ever since. It's a dizzying thought.
The world was a very different place 13 years ago. At that time, there was no inkling of this separation or gulf defining Gaelic football. But that is what has happened.
Tyrone prised their foot in the door around then and established themselves as a top-tier county. Their first All-Ireland success, coupled with an incredible fund-raising culture, enabled them to build a state of the art facility and put a huge emphasis on coaching. They laid success for subsequent generations to walk in the door to a system and culture that is in place.
Tyrone's centre of excellence in Garvaghy.
Tyrone's centre of excellence in Garvaghy.
Kerry's biggest feature is that kids in that county aspire to wear the jersey. Mayo has a very strong football tradition and are driven by the hope of emancipating the county from the pain of coming so close so often. Galway has an assured sense of its own place. Donegal have managed to thrive after making a breakthrough in 2012, but I would be less certain of their ability to stay in that top tier unless football is resourced properly at board level.
The point is that all of these counties thrive on a kind of cause. It's what creates the internal energy. Most counties don't have that resource right now.
In 1997, I went I went down to Tralee to college. We won the Sigerson the following year.
The competition was actually held in Tralee. Because of that, we stayed in Killarney to prepare and we were put up in a very nice hotel. I remember that when we arrived, there was a flip chart in the corner of the meeting room and every single waking hour and detail was accounted for. I had never seen that at club or county level before. It was a level of organisation and a professionalisation of attitude instilled by Val Andrews and, later, Vinny O'Shea.

People made sacrifices. Moynihan was driving over from Glenflesk for 7am sessions
So we won the thing three years in a row. UCC were our big local rivals. When we would play, they often chanted "Come on, College." The message was that they were playing for a proper university while we were "IT" students.
The 1999 Sigerson was played in Belfast. In the Queen's students union on the night we were celebrating, the UCC lads started singing "Ye bought the Sigerson." And the Tralee gang was singing back "We've got the cup and we can't get rid of it."
It's well known that the Tralee team was stacked with All-Ireland winners and players like Michael Donnellan, Seamus Moynihan and Pádraic Joyce. And we all got scholarships and we walked into this terrific training system.
Now, people made sacrifices. Moynihan was driving over from Glenflesk for 7am sessions. It wasn't a professional set up. But in a way, we did buy those Sigersons through the quality of the set-up. The other teams weren't in a position to match what Tralee had just then. That's what is going on an inter-county level now.
Next summer, the Super Eight will be the big innovation. I'd really love to know what the GAA thinks that term "Super Eight" says to the other 25 counties. I feel it will further convince them to believe that there is nothing they can do about the situation.

In the late 1960s, an American psychologist named Martin Seligman carried out a series of experiments using dogs grouped in harnesses who were subjected to electric shocks. One group could end the shocks by pressing a lever with their paws. But the third group could not and learned to believe that the shocks were inescapable.
In the next part of the experiment, the same group of dogs were placed in an area divided into boxes with low partitions. They could escape the shocks on one side by simply jumping the partition to the other side. But most of the dogs in the third group still believed they could do nothing to escape their fate and simply lay down and accepted the shock time and time again.
Seligman termed this behaviour "learned helplessness". I think it describes the attitudes within many county boards right now. They simply exist. They believe that there is nothing they can really do to live with the big counties.
There will always be strong counties. But the GAA can make the game fairer.
Finance is one obvious area that is ripe for reform. The big counties like Kerry and Dublin have terrific brands. But if the GAA is a genuine amateur organisation and if it is proposing its marquee competition, the All-Ireland championship, as a fair contest, then how can four or five counties use their financial worth to shoot past the opposition? In a professional, commercial context, that is absolutely fine. But it is, by definition, unfair in an amateur arena.
What if that money was then pooled centrally and used to set up a nationwide coaching apparatus
What would happen, for instance, if rather than every county chasing its own sponsor, there was one central sponsor of every county in the championship?
Let's say that it is Coca-Cola. So every team, from Dublin to Carlow wears that logo on its shirt. AIG is willing to give Dublin €4 million. Bayern Munich has agreed a deal with Adidas for €900 million over 10 years. So could a uniform sponsorship deliver, say, €10 million to the GAA per annum? Surely that's not too much of a stretch.

What if that money was then pooled centrally and used to set up a nationwide coaching apparatus with a national high performance director and a high performance manager in each county? This would give young players the same access to coaching and benefits at primary, secondary and club level.
What if every county rolled out a nationalised programme incorporating everything from coaching to S&C to nutrition so that they have a chance to be the very best they can be?
I think that would change the mindset immediately. Dublin will always be a strong football county because they have 1.4 million people and they have a system in place now. So too will Kerry. But at least if a county like Carlow has a fairer share of funding, then the standards in those counties will rise.
In 2004, Armagh were probably the envy of most counties. They had a brilliant team and a terrific manager and a clear vision of how they wanted to play. They were driven, conscientious and ambitious. I think they were among the last of the old GAA pattern of an exceptional team "coming along" every so often.
The county gets a lift and interest becomes intense and then that team fades and things quieten down again.
Those rules don't apply any more to the elite counties. This particular Dublin team will fade. But Dublin as an entity won't. I believe the same is true of Kerry and also Tyrone.

After that, it becomes more difficult to predict. I think there is a distinct danger of Gaelic football reflecting the hurling championship, with a handful of counties playing on an entirely different plane.
Like Mr Seligman's poor dogs, have come to feel that there is nothing they can do about it
But there is also a bleaker possibility that the entire championship will be reduced to a two-horse race. The best counties will keep pushing boundaries and trying to improve. Why wouldn't they? They would be crazy not to.
The opposite will become true for those counties who, like Mr Seligman's poor dogs, have come to feel that there is nothing they can do about it. They will lie there and accept their fate. We have seen this happen in too many championship games already this summer and there is worse to come.
The GAA must either act fast to change the collective thinking or else give up the pretence that the championship is a competition open to all counties.

[Stradism]

Some great posts on here since the game but here's a small thought I had during the week and a somewhat different perspective to what has been posted since Sunday.

This current panel consists of some good players who have been on the road along time including; Donie, Quigley, McMahon, Strong, Begley etc.  Sprinkled with some, (but not enough) decent youth who were apart of exclusively unsuccessful minor and U21 teams.

As for the players in their 8th,9th,10th season or whatever; These guys have taken heavy, heavy defeats. Our provincial performances since our last Leinster final appearance (in 2007) have been atrocious. The defeats include;

2008-   Wexford           6pts
2009-   Kildare      15pts
2010-    Meath       10pts
2011-   Dublin        8pts
2012-   Longford     1pt
2013-    Louth        10pts
2014-   Dublin        12pts
2015-   Kildare       13pts
2016-   Dublin        11pts
2017-   Kildare      14pts

Was last weekend a surprise?

We can talk about fitness, that Peter Creedon is incapable as a manager or whatever. Kildare physically, are at a different level to Laois. I agree.

But my point is;

• Younger panel members aren't used to winning championship games in general. No minor or U21 success in I don't know how long!
• And the older players have taken beating after beating year in year out. IMO they are mentally weak and incapable of performing against a big team. Simply because when it starts to go wrong on the big day, (ie 20 mins into the game on Sunday) There's a "here we go again" attitude.

Players don't take responsibility, the towel is thrown in and powerful & pacey teams like Kildare, Meath, Dublin will kick for home and embarrass you.

[High Fielder]

I totally agree with that McGuinness article. The GAA is into the realms of Eddie The Eagle when it allows the likes of Carlow and ourselves to be in the same competition as Dublin. 33/1 in a two horse race? We'd be about the same. We have too many disadvantages to be competitive. We're a small county as it is and a dual county to further diminish our chances. Population, sponsorship, coaching, grants and so much more is plentiful elsewhere are scarce here. The GAA is a busted flush in my opinion. Outside of the Munster Hurling Championship, the Provincial system is boring and mostly uncompetitive. The Leagues (home and away games) should take precedence with an FA Cup style All Ireland. Scrap all these completely ridiculous challenge games and have teams playing a game every weekend. 

[Joeythelips]

McGuinness' article is good alright and I agree that the championship at present is a bit of a farce. It needs to be a seeded system with seeding been influnced by league and provincial championships and previous years performance.

But I don't fully buy into his arguement. Dublin are far advanced in terms of structures, financial backing and preparation. But if this was the simple formula then how come they don't win hurling All Irelands. How can a county like Kilkenny with its population basically dominate them at this sport (not saying it will always be this way). Essentially there is a blueprint out there for how smaller counties can not only compete but can in fact be successful, and it highlights what has gone wrong with our own county. I know Kilkenny only focus on hurling but the point is still valid.

1. The whole focus in Kilkenny is to produce a large pool of quality well coached hurlers from an early age, the game is well promoted and encouraged in all primary schools and teachers play a big part also.

2.This will feed into a well balanced competitive club scene at underage which helps develop players further.

3. The best players are then picked for development squads, where they are coached to almost inter county levels with the intention not of winning minors or u-21s (although this would naturally be a byproduct some years) but with developing senior standard players.

4. Some years this may only produce 3 or 4 players capable of joining the senior squad but its creates a conveyor belt of talent and again the ones who don't make it at this stage feed back into what is are ultra competitive senior and intermediate club competitions. The club scene is treated with respect as its a vital part of the cog here, with inter county stars expected to play club fixtures during the inter county championship.

5. This conveyor belt effect means the Senior squad is extremely competitive rather than a 10/11 top players and rest just average players who just make up the numbers. This keeps all players on their toes, even the star players as no one is guaranteed their place. Cody is the main instigator of this culture which began with Carlie Carter been famously been demoted.

Here is a Strategic plan http://www.kilkennygaa.ie/Downloads/StrategicPlan.pdf Kilkenny County board had in 2010, nothing out of the ordinary on here but look at it and then remind yourself that Laois GAA don't even have a decent website. We have a losers mindset which needs to change soon.

[Giovanni]

McGuinness' article is good alright and I agree that the championship at present is a bit of a farce. It needs to be a seeded system with seeding been influnced by league and provincial championships and previous years performance.

But I don't fully buy into his arguement. Dublin are far advanced in terms of structures, financial backing and preparation. But if this was the simple formula then how come they don't win hurling All Irelands. How can a county like Kilkenny with its population basically dominate them at this sport (not saying it will always be this way). Essentially there is a blueprint out there for how smaller counties can not only compete but can in fact be successful, and it highlights what has gone wrong with our own county. I know Kilkenny only focus on hurling but the point is still valid.

1. The whole focus in Kilkenny is to produce a large pool of quality well coached hurlers from an early age, the game is well promoted and encouraged in all primary schools and teachers play a big part also.

2.This will feed into a well balanced competitive club scene at underage which helps develop players further.

3. The best players are then picked for development squads, where they are coached to almost inter county levels with the intention not of winning minors or u-21s (although this would naturally be a byproduct some years) but with developing senior standard players.

4. Some years this may only produce 3 or 4 players capable of joining the senior squad but its creates a conveyor belt of talent and again the ones who don't make it at this stage feed back into what is are ultra competitive senior and intermediate club competitions. The club scene is treated with respect as its a vital part of the cog here, with inter county stars expected to play club fixtures during the inter county championship.

5. This conveyor belt effect means the Senior squad is extremely competitive rather than a 10/11 top players and rest just average players who just make up the numbers. This keeps all players on their toes, even the star players as no one is guaranteed their place. Cody is the main instigator of this culture which began with Carlie Carter been famously been demoted.

Here is a Strategic plan http://www.kilkennygaa.ie/Downloads/StrategicPlan.pdf Kilkenny County board had in 2010, nothing out of the ordinary on here but look at it and then remind yourself that Laois GAA don't even have a decent website. We have a losers mindset which needs to change soon.

Brilliant post Joeythelips.

[High Fielder]

I like your post Joey but you were right when you said Kilkenny only focus on hurling. Also, you have to factor in history and tradition, because it plays a part in shaping the future too. The Dublin hurlers don't have a massive tradition in hurling terms, but still, their time might yet come. They certainly have a better chance than most, ourselves included. We have nothing to cling to. No real former glory apart from the odd highlight - not enough for a young Laois lad to wake up every morning dreaming about wearing the jersey. I get the feeling just now, and someone said it above, that we have a losing mentality. We've accepted our place in the GAA world. We're waiting for good fortune to intervene once again and give us a panel of players that will compete. That's the bit I like about your post Joey. Continuous development on a superior level has to be the way forward. That's where we need to spend our money now. We have to do something about this rather than wait for another good crop.

[The Monument Road]

Some achievement by Dublin.7 in a row. Kildare gave it their all but were miles away from winning even though they had the best midfielder on view in Kevin Feeley, a joy to watch. The rest of us in  leinster have some way to go to even get close to those two.