The Disappeared - RTE1 now 21.35 & BBC1 22.35

[glens abu]

What I found interesting was the bitterness of McKee and Hughes both leaders of the IRA at that time.McKee left the movement in 1976 when he was replaced by younger more forward thinking Republicans coming out of the jails.Hughes came outof jail was shocked to see how things had changed since he went in unfortunately became an Alcoholic and ended up being used by others with axes to grind to inform on former comrades.Again what happened to these families was horrendous and can never be excused or repeated but trying to pin it on Gerry Adams for me discredits some who took part and the makers of this program.Was shown on RTE and BBC last night is on again tonight,is been shown again next week and had been discussed on every news and current affairs programme this week.Very little about Lethal Allies wonder why?

[Maguire01]

What I found interesting was the bitterness of McKee and Hughes both leaders of the IRA at that time.McKee left the movement in 1976 when he was replaced by younger more forward thinking Republicans coming out of the jails.Hughes came outof jail was shocked to see how things had changed since he went in unfortunately became an Alcoholic and ended up being used by others with axes to grind to inform on former comrades.Again what happened to these families was horrendous and can never be excused or repeated but trying to pin it on Gerry Adams for me discredits some who took part and the makers of this program.Was shown on RTE and BBC last night is on again tonight,is been shown again next week and had been discussed on every news and current affairs programme this week.

Of course, but then you're a loyal SF supporter. I assume you believe Adams when he says he wasn't in the IRA and when he denies the allegations made against him in the programme?

But could they really have made the programme and ignored these allegations?

Very little about Lethal Allies wonder why?

Maybe there will be in time - there certainly should be. I doubt this programme was made overnight.

[Maguire01]

I have always been disgusted at the IRA disappearing bodies

And I can only but reiterate that. Disappearing bodies is obscene and inhumane.

So as far as your comment above is concerned, I can only conclude that your only interest in this thread is not so much sympathy for the families, but hoping to score some sort of cheap political point.

So "disappearing bodies is obscene and inhumane"? What elements of the PIRA campaign were 'decent' and 'humane'?

And while you might consider it bad taste that attempts are made to 'score political points', it might be also be considered in bad taste to use that defense to avoid pertinent issues. I don't for a second doubt that anyone on here has anything but massive sympathies with the families. That doesn't mean we have to ignore some 'inconvenient' aspects.

Maguire, get over yourself. I've never shied away from condemning what you'd love to believe I find "inconvenient". Believing the IRA has a right to use force doesn't mean I believe that every action they did was justifiable. I'll condemn the disappearing of bodies all day long if need be. No inconvenience to me at all, you'll be disappointed to hear.

As the context is 'political point scoring', my reference to 'inconvenient' aspects were the allegations of who was involved. Of course you don't find it inconvenient to condemn the disappearing of bodies - that's now official party policy.

I've always found such acts totally disgusting. Implying I ever thought otherwise, without evidence nor reason, is fairly pathetic. Again, just because you wish something were true to claim about me, doesn't make it so, and again, apologies at how that must disappoint you.

I don't get disappointed that easily. Sorry to disappoint you, if you're disappointed that i'm not disappointed.

I take your word for it when you say you've never thought otherwise. I just find it difficult to understand the logic - from someone who "defends" the PIRA campaign - that these acts were obscene and inhumane, in the context of countless other acts which, by definition, would surely be described in the same terms.

[Mike Sheehy]

SS, do you mean why did the IRA kill them??  I don't think you'll find anyone who'll justify it...not in 2013 anyway.

Sorry - justify does not seem the correct word. 'Why' I think because i spose they were or were suspected of being touts although the case of Jean McConville to me was always shrouded in confusion in that she was either (i) executed cos she helped an injured soldier on the street or (ii) had control of a radio and was sending information to the security forces and had been warned a number of times to cease.

Was the IRA (or sorry Louth TD, the mystery men from mystery land) saying that all the so-called disappeared were all informers?

Were lads 'disappeared' for simply dissing a local commander or not showing 'due respect'?

There was no law. They could have been looking at someone sideways or may have spilled someone's pint. Maybe some of them were suspected paedos. Or is that too modern?

what suspected paedos ? and why is that suspicion "too modern" ?

[lawnseed]

not good at all. the fact that the programme was shown on both state broadcasters on the same night is interesting..

hundreds of show like this could be made from 'would be republicans' offing their neighbours in the twenties to get their land to politicians not long dead murdering republican prisoners and blowing about it in pubs. that's the problem with guerrilla warfare individuals carry out atrocities under the guise of a cause when it can be over something like a row in a pub or over a women. either way Gerry is a liability to the sinn fein party more so than ever he needs to step aside as soon as possible. tomorrow would not be soon enough.. i'd say the gimp Kenny and mehole martian were cracking open the champers last night.

You are the gimp trying to deflect on Kenny and Martin, the blood is on the hands of your heroes.

excuse me. we are all still waiting on your hero to engage Gerry in a one to one debate or martin on any issue. he must be dreading the next election when his fine gael cronies make him disappear incase some savvy opponent or reporter exposes him for the bollix he is..

[Nally Stand]

I have always been disgusted at the IRA disappearing bodies

And I can only but reiterate that. Disappearing bodies is obscene and inhumane.

So as far as your comment above is concerned, I can only conclude that your only interest in this thread is not so much sympathy for the families, but hoping to score some sort of cheap political point.

So "disappearing bodies is obscene and inhumane"? What elements of the PIRA campaign were 'decent' and 'humane'?

And while you might consider it bad taste that attempts are made to 'score political points', it might be also be considered in bad taste to use that defense to avoid pertinent issues. I don't for a second doubt that anyone on here has anything but massive sympathies with the families. That doesn't mean we have to ignore some 'inconvenient' aspects.

Maguire, get over yourself. I've never shied away from condemning what you'd love to believe I find "inconvenient". Believing the IRA has a right to use force doesn't mean I believe that every action they did was justifiable. I'll condemn the disappearing of bodies all day long if need be. No inconvenience to me at all, you'll be disappointed to hear.

As the context is 'political point scoring', my reference to 'inconvenient' aspects were the allegations of who was involved. Of course you don't find it inconvenient to condemn the disappearing of bodies - that's now official party policy.

I've always found such acts totally disgusting. Implying I ever thought otherwise, without evidence nor reason, is fairly pathetic. Again, just because you wish something were true to claim about me, doesn't make it so, and again, apologies at how that must disappoint you.

I don't get disappointed that easily. Sorry to disappoint you, if you're disappointed that i'm not disappointed.

I take your word for it when you say you've never thought otherwise. I just find it difficult to understand the logic - from someone who "defends" the PIRA campaign - that these acts were obscene and inhumane, in the context of countless other acts which, by definition, would surely be described in the same terms.

Simple concept Maguire. My disgust for certain actions of the IRA does not diminish my belief that the IRA campaign in general was justifiable. You may disagree on whether or not it was justifiable but that's neither here nor there; the simple fact is that any armed campaign anywhere by any army (guerrilla or otherwise), no matter how legitimate it may have been to the world, is always going to have included certain despicable acts. It's possible and acceptable to condemn such acts without condemning the entire campaign and it's legitimacy.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

not good at all. the fact that the programme was shown on both state broadcasters on the same night is interesting..

hundreds of show like this could be made from 'would be republicans' offing their neighbours in the twenties to get their land to politicians not long dead murdering republican prisoners and blowing about it in pubs. that's the problem with guerrilla warfare individuals carry out atrocities under the guise of a cause when it can be over something like a row in a pub or over a women. either way Gerry is a liability to the sinn fein party more so than ever he needs to step aside as soon as possible. tomorrow would not be soon enough.. i'd say the gimp Kenny and mehole martian were cracking open the champers last night.

You are the gimp trying to deflect on Kenny and Martin, the blood is on the hands of your heroes.

excuse me. we are all still waiting on your hero to engage Gerry in a one to one debate or martin on any issue. he must be dreading the next election when his fine gael cronies make him disappear incase some savvy opponent or reporter exposes him for the bollix he is..

This thread is about your heroes darkside.

[Franko]

I have always been disgusted at the IRA disappearing bodies

And I can only but reiterate that. Disappearing bodies is obscene and inhumane.

So as far as your comment above is concerned, I can only conclude that your only interest in this thread is not so much sympathy for the families, but hoping to score some sort of cheap political point.

So "disappearing bodies is obscene and inhumane"? What elements of the PIRA campaign were 'decent' and 'humane'?

And while you might consider it bad taste that attempts are made to 'score political points', it might be also be considered in bad taste to use that defense to avoid pertinent issues. I don't for a second doubt that anyone on here has anything but massive sympathies with the families. That doesn't mean we have to ignore some 'inconvenient' aspects.

Maguire, get over yourself. I've never shied away from condemning what you'd love to believe I find "inconvenient". Believing the IRA has a right to use force doesn't mean I believe that every action they did was justifiable. I'll condemn the disappearing of bodies all day long if need be. No inconvenience to me at all, you'll be disappointed to hear.

As the context is 'political point scoring', my reference to 'inconvenient' aspects were the allegations of who was involved. Of course you don't find it inconvenient to condemn the disappearing of bodies - that's now official party policy.

I've always found such acts totally disgusting. Implying I ever thought otherwise, without evidence nor reason, is fairly pathetic. Again, just because you wish something were true to claim about me, doesn't make it so, and again, apologies at how that must disappoint you.

I don't get disappointed that easily. Sorry to disappoint you, if you're disappointed that i'm not disappointed.

I take your word for it when you say you've never thought otherwise. I just find it difficult to understand the logic - from someone who "defends" the PIRA campaign - that these acts were obscene and inhumane, in the context of countless other acts which, by definition, would surely be described in the same terms.

Simple concept Maguire. My disgust for certain actions of the IRA does not diminish my belief that the IRA campaign in general was justifiable. You may disagree on whether or not it was justifiable but that's neither here nor there; the simple fact is that any armed campaign anywhere by any army (guerrilla or otherwise), no matter how legitimate it may have been to the world, is always going to have included certain despicable acts. It's possible and acceptable to condemn such acts without condemning the entire campaign and it's legitimacy.

+1

You are bound to be getting close to fed up repeating this.

[trileacman]

Simple concept Maguire. My disgust for certain actions of the IRA does not diminish my belief that the IRA campaign in general was justifiable. You may disagree on whether or not it was justifiable but that's neither here nor there; the simple fact is that any armed campaign anywhere by any army (guerrilla or otherwise), no matter how legitimate it may have been to the world, is always going to have included certain despicable acts. It's possible and acceptable to condemn such acts without condemning the entire campaign and it's legitimacy.

I find it hard to disassociate the two as easily as this and so when it comes to IRA commemorations or other events I just can't swallow the glorification of the armed struggle that is presented to us (largely by Sinn Fein). The rebel songs, the slogans, the emblems, the epitaphs, the wall murals, they all conveniently leave out the times when a young mother was dragged out of her house, murdered and dumped in an unmarked grave.

It's the same as when I meet a member of the British armed forces, no matter how short or insignificant the meeting, should I just meet them in an airport or on the streets of an English city, I feel a reflex of distrust and dislike. I make no apology for that as they are part of an organisation that I know is capable of evil and brutal acts, which they demonstrated during the Troubles.

And that too is the way I view the IRA, as countless times they perpetrated the murder of Irish people in the name of freeing those self-same people.

[Nally Stand]

Simple concept Maguire. My disgust for certain actions of the IRA does not diminish my belief that the IRA campaign in general was justifiable. You may disagree on whether or not it was justifiable but that's neither here nor there; the simple fact is that any armed campaign anywhere by any army (guerrilla or otherwise), no matter how legitimate it may have been to the world, is always going to have included certain despicable acts. It's possible and acceptable to condemn such acts without condemning the entire campaign and it's legitimacy.

I find it hard to disassociate the two as easily as this and so when it comes to IRA commemorations or other events I just can't swallow the glorification of the armed struggle that is presented to us (largely by Sinn Fein). The rebel songs, the slogans, the emblems, the epitaphs, the wall murals, they all conveniently leave out the times when a young mother was dragged out of her house, murdered and dumped in an unmarked grave.

It's the same as when I meet a member of the British armed forces, no matter how short or insignificant the meeting, should I just meet them in an airport or on the streets of an English city, I feel a reflex of distrust and dislike. I make no apology for that as they are part of an organisation that I know is capable of evil and brutal acts, which they demonstrated during the Troubles.

And that too is the way I view the IRA, as countless times they perpetrated the murder of Irish people in the name of freeing those self-same people.

Again, that's your perspective and that's fair enough. I don't happen to share it and I don't expect you to change your mind. Each to their own. From my own perspective, as I said in my last post, if we use the logic you apply above then no army or armed group anywhere, ever, can be looked at with pride and none should have commemorations for fallen members. While the IRA (as with every army) carried out vile acts I could never condone and actively condemn, I still view their campaign in general as justifiable and unavoidable, and as far as I'm concerned, it was as a result of their campaign that Britain was forced to take seriously nationalist demands for equality and peace. I seen no evidence to suggest that without their campaign, Britain/Unionism would have magically/willingly given us a fraction of the equality we have today without doing so under duress. Anyway, this that is widening the topic a bit far into an area which is debated often enough across countless other threads.

[Ulick]

Billy Mc Kee had no issue with the killings, as long a the corpses were left by the roadside. Did he not say himself he had no problem with killing Jean Mc Conville, but with the "disappearing" of her corpse, or words to that effect.

Why would he have a problem with it? She was an informer and if not already responsible for the death of volunteers was endangering the lives of others. After being warned she knew the risk she was taking by continuing with her actions. Arguably any officer in a conflict who does not take similar action to neutralising such a threat to those under his command should not be in the position. Disappearing the remains was a cruel and unnecessary act, the death itself, although harsh was probably the only course of action available at the time.

[LeoMc]

Billy Mc Kee had no issue with the killings, as long a the corpses were left by the roadside. Did he not say himself he had no problem with killing Jean Mc Conville, but with the "disappearing" of her corpse, or words to that effect.

Why would he have a problem with it? She was an informer and if not already responsible for the death of volunteers was endangering the lives of others. After being warned she knew the risk she was taking by continuing with her actions. Arguably any officer in a conflict who does not take similar action to neutralising such a threat to those under his command should not be in the position. Disappearing the remains was a cruel and unnecessary act, the death itself, although harsh was probably the only course of action available at the time.

Was she?

[Milltown Row2]

Billy Mc Kee had no issue with the killings, as long a the corpses were left by the roadside. Did he not say himself he had no problem with killing Jean Mc Conville, but with the "disappearing" of her corpse, or words to that effect.

Why would he have a problem with it? She was an informer and if not already responsible for the death of volunteers was endangering the lives of others. After being warned she knew the risk she was taking by continuing with her actions. Arguably any officer in a conflict who does not take similar action to neutralising such a threat to those under his command should not be in the position. Disappearing the remains was a cruel and unnecessary act, the death itself, although harsh was probably the only course of action available at the time.

I didn't think there was official confirmation that the IRA said she was an informer, besides they didn't give her much time to stop her actions as they 'arrested' her the next day and killed her.

I still don't get the logic behind not doing what they normal (fcuk like its normal) did when dealing with informers, i.e shooting them and leaving them in a ditch, you seemed informed enough on the matter maybe you could shed some light as to why they were disappeared?

[Ulick]

Billy Mc Kee had no issue with the killings, as long a the corpses were left by the roadside. Did he not say himself he had no problem with killing Jean Mc Conville, but with the "disappearing" of her corpse, or words to that effect.

Why would he have a problem with it? She was an informer and if not already responsible for the death of volunteers was endangering the lives of others. After being warned she knew the risk she was taking by continuing with her actions. Arguably any officer in a conflict who does not take similar action to neutralising such a threat to those under his command should not be in the position. Disappearing the remains was a cruel and unnecessary act, the death itself, although harsh was probably the only course of action available at the time.

I didn't think there was official confirmation that the IRA said she was an informer, besides they didn't give her much time to stop her actions as they 'arrested' her the next day and killed her.

I still don't get the logic behind not doing what they normal (fcuk like its normal) did when dealing with informers, i.e shooting them and leaving them in a ditch, you seemed informed enough on the matter maybe you could shed some light as to why they were disappeared?

Hughes (the person who said Adams gave the order) said she was caught with a radio and warned what would happen if she did it again. A number of weeks later she was caught again. She was shot. I have no idea why they were disappeared - my only guess was to save on some short term bad press.

[Rossfan]

Billy Mc Kee had no issue with the killings, as long a the corpses were left by the roadside. Did he not say himself he had no problem with killing Jean Mc Conville, but with the "disappearing" of her corpse, or words to that effect.

Why would he have a problem with it? She was an informer and if not already responsible for the death of volunteers was endangering the lives of others. After being warned she knew the risk she was taking by continuing with her actions. Arguably any officer in a conflict who does not take similar action to neutralising such a threat to those under his command should not be in the position. Disappearing the remains was a cruel and unnecessary act, the death itself, although harsh was probably the only course of action available at the time.

I didn't think there was official confirmation that the IRA said she was an informer, besides they didn't give her much time to stop her actions as they 'arrested' her the next day and killed her.

I still don't get the logic behind not doing what they normal (fcuk like its normal) did when dealing with informers, i.e shooting them and leaving them in a ditch, you seemed informed enough on the matter maybe you could shed some light as to why they were disappeared?

Hughes (the person who said Adams gave the order) said she was caught with a radio and warned what would happen if she did it again. A number of weeks later she was caught again. She was shot. I have no idea why they were disappeared - my only guess was to save on some short term bad press.

Even if the radio allegations are true ( and I'm quite sceptical that anyone would keep using a radio having been told to stop) could they not have ordered her out of the area seeing as she was a mother of a large family?