I see some of the so-called experts are calling for the scrapping of the Provincial championships. Interesting? I've been suggesting that for ages. The way I see the game moving forward to everyone's benefit would be as follows:
The eight quarter-finalists to be seeded (winners 1, runners-up 2, losing semi-finalists 3 and 4 etc). These provide the first county in each of eight gropus A - H). An open draw would then follow to fill each of the other three places in the groups. This will enable ALL counties to have a minimum of three Championship games and the winners of each group progress into the All-Ireland quarter-finals. The Provincial's could be played another time if the counties really wanted to keep them in place.
Thoughts?
If you abolish the provincials, then there is only one cup in the year, many teams will not win Sam for decades, but can aspire to a provincial championship.
Indeed, it would have to be split 16 for Sam Maguire and 16 for Tommy Murphy Cup.
4 groups of 4 with top 2 in each division making quarter-finals. Bottom team in each division in Sam Maguire play relegation playoffs.
Two teams relegated each year, replaced by winner and runner-up from Tommy Murphy Cup.
Then most teams would have aspirations of winning the competition they're in, and winning the TM Cup would have the equivalent value of winning the "Championship" (i.e. old Division 2) in soccer across channel.
But I dont see that ever getting buy-in from the counties.
you can have both running concurrently, more games and a knock-out provincial championship a bit like the premiership and FA Cup. It may mean the league may have to be re-thought though.
Quote from: armaghniac on June 22, 2007, 10:58:47 AM
...many teams will not win Sam for decades, but can aspire to a provincial championship.
Don't be
so pessimistic, maybe just the
one decade for Armagh ;)
I have thought for some time that a Champions league Format would be the best way forward for the All Ireland. Like Carnross has said 8 groups of four with then quarter finals for knock out. It guarantees 6 games per team and will provide much more entertainment than the current League format. I would scrap the League in its entirety and run the provincials off as a pre-cursor to the Championship. This would then be used as a means to assess the seedings for the Championship. If the fixtures are done out in advance then the club games can be worked around it much easier than the current format as there will be less games overall but more competitive ones.
Obviously Leinster is the biggest province so it would have the most games. For talk sake Dublin are in the earliest round of Leinster they would be likely to need to win 4 games to win the provincial. They then have the League Format where they will play 6 games for the group placings. 1/4, semis and Finals and that is a total of 13 games for the season. This, barring draws is the most that any county team will play and therefore club fixtures can be fitted around it easier. With the advances in floodlighting too evening games will become greater options but given that most will be played over the summer months then this is less likely.
Definitely needs to be revamped, big time. The twin cup approach of Hound's could be a runner, but it will take not a little determination, vision and resolve from the powers that be to introduce something so radical, and I wouldn't think that Nicky Brennan's that man.
I don't think there's too much wrong with it as it is.
Scrap the league as it is and instead play for the provincial trophies at that time of year. Then have a straight 32 county knockout with a backdoor system.
The provincials are all but gone anyway. They do not really matter for the top five to six counties therefore each year they are becoming more and more devalued. Plus Cork and Kerry, if they avoid each other until the Munster final, are guranteed to get to the last 12 of the all ireland without having to break sweat. This is chronically unfair.
QuoteThe provincials are all but gone anyway. They do not really matter for the top five to six counties therefore each year they are becoming more and more devalued.
With respect the top 5 or 6 are not a majority. Tell any Sligo person in the next few weeks that a Connacht title doesn't matter or is devalued. If we win it tell us the same. People will tell you you are from Mars.
In principle I would welcome it but Counties will not vote to abolish the provincial championships. And they wont be ran as a stand alone competition either, they will just die like the railway cup if that happens.
The only time they tried running an all out open draw competition was in 1985 with the Ford Cup following on from the Centenary cup in 84. It was a bit of a novelty at first but never took off and if i remember the crowds were very poor by the time the second year came around and it was binned soon afterwards.
There is still something special about a provincial final no matter if you have won it 70 times or never won it and counties will not give up that part of their tradition. And as we all know tradition and heritage plays a huge role in the matters of the GAA.
But all provinces go through times of strengths and weaknesses.
Ulster we are told is very equal at the moment and you have 3 or 4 counties all at the same level with a few lagging behind but thay have made good progress in the Ulster council to develop football but it hasnt always been so, Cavan had a virtual monopony on the Ulster title for a span of about 30 years back 50 years or more ago.
Leinster since the early Seventies has seen only Dublin, Offaly and Meath as the main challangers until recently with the breakthrough of Kildare, Westmeath and Laois, but now the Dubs have risen well ahead of the rest again.
Munster has been one sided for years as Kerry play against 5 traditional hurling counties. Cork have always pushed Kerry close and Limerick and Tipp have come close on more than one occasion to making the breakthrough in the last 10 years. We get these stories every year about how easy a route it is perceived Kerry have to a Quarter final. We can only play what is put in front of us and has been see in Munster over the last few years , Cork are well able to beat us so its not all plain sailing.
Connacht has always been split between Galway and Mayo with the odd appearance by Roscommon and the very rare appearance by Leitrim or Sligo
It is up to the counties themselves and the GAA to support the development of weaker football counties to become more proficient at football and vice versa for hurling and to hopefully see a more balanced championship in the 4 provinces and I think the lack of development of hurling in the provinces is a bigger problem than football.
How can anyone realistically say its as fair for Munster teams as say Leinster or Ulster to win an AI?
How many All-Ireland have Kerry or Cork won where they only had to play maybe one tough game.
Even their recent victories usually consisted of one tough game either against Armagh or Cork and then easy wins v Mayo.
The level of intensity in Ulster is much higher, even if it does lead to uglier football but it means even matches against the 'weaker teams' can be tough enough. (Fermanagh)
In 2005, as Brian Dooher said in his speech
"We beat the Ulster champions(eventually), Leinster champions, Munster champions and the reigning AI champions."
We had to play 10 games with a couple of replays on the way.
Whereas usually teams from Ulster used to be so delighted with winning Ulster that they had already peaked and could never make it when they got to Croker.
With some provinces only have maybe 2 descent teams it seems only fair to open it up for 4 groups of 8.
Just a thought but if they where to run the Proviencals & League as Competitions that decided your seeding for an Open Draw Championship, obviously the few extra games may meen the likes of the FBD be abandoned.
I did not say that the Provincials do not matter to some counties. Of course it is great for counties, who rarely win Provincials to win them but my point is that they are not as competitive as they once were because the top teams know that they have a second chance.
Yes for counties such as Sligo, Fermanagh, Wexford, the provincial title is always their main goal and it would be fantastic for those counties to win it but in my opinion that win is devalued because other teams do not put the same emphasis into winning it as they do. Just because they (Sligo, Fermanagh and Wexford) don't see it as devalued doesnt mean that it isn't.
Before the backdoor everyone treated the Provincial Championships the same, i dont believe every team does now. Is winning a competition that all your competitiors do not treat as seriously as you as good as winning a competition that everyone is going full titl for? I dont think it is.
In my opinion anyway.
My problem with the current format is that it is blatently unfair. Some teams can look at peaking in August while others know they have to peak much earlier. It is an unfair system.
I honestly think it would be better for both clubs and county to radically change the whole system, shorten the season and scrap the provincial championships. Again just my opinion.
Quote from: believebelive on June 22, 2007, 11:32:01 AM
Scrap the league as it is and instead play for the provincial trophies at that time of year. Then have a straight 32 county knockout with a backdoor system.
The provincials are all but gone anyway. They do not really matter for the top five to six counties therefore each year they are becoming more and more devalued. Plus Cork and Kerry, if they avoid each other until the Munster final, are guranteed to get to the last 12 of the all ireland without having to break sweat. This is chronically unfair.
I think this year changes to the back door have made provincial title look very appealing when you look who you have to beat in the back-door
Quote from: Fuzzman on June 22, 2007, 12:06:07 PM
How can anyone realistically say its as fair for Munster teams as say Leinster or Ulster to win an AI?
How many All-Ireland have Kerry or Cork won where they only had to play maybe one tough game.
Even their recent victories usually consisted of one tough game either against Armagh or Cork and then easy wins v Mayo.
The level of intensity in Ulster is much higher, even if it does lead to uglier football but it means even matches against the 'weaker teams' can be tough enough. (Fermanagh)
In 2005, as Brian Dooher said in his speech
"We beat the Ulster champions(eventually), Leinster champions, Munster champions and the reigning AI champions."
We had to play 10 games with a couple of replays on the way.
Whereas usually teams from Ulster used to be so delighted with winning Ulster that they had already peaked and could never make it when they got to Croker.
With some provinces only have maybe 2 descent teams it seems only fair to open it up for 4 groups of 8.
Yet people say Galway in the hurling are held back by having the easy draw , it cant be both
QuoteEven their recent victories usually consisted of one tough game either against Armagh or Cork and then easy wins v Mayo.
Last year we beat the Ulster champions in a quarter final, the Munster champions in the Semi final and the Connacht champions in the All Ireland. Yet it's still seen in some quarters as another "easy" All Ireland for Kerry. This after two tough games against Cork in the Munster final. I can guarantee you Kerry did not set out last year to play poorly and to lose a Munster championship and come through the easy back door. We never wanted the back door, and if it was not there we would not have won Sam last year, but you play the system thats there, we regrouped made the most of our second chance as Tyrone and others have done in the past.
QuoteThe level of intensity in Ulster is much higher, even if it does lead to uglier football but it means even matches against the 'weaker teams' can be tough enough. (Fermanagh)
Yes true to a certain extent but this is only a recent effect and there have been many one sided games too in Ulster in the distant past and more recently in 2004 Armagh beat Monaghan by 15 points, and Donegal by 11. In 2005 Tyrone beat Cavan in an Ulster semi final by 21 points. 2006 was more evenly matched , but how a team of Armagh's potential could draw with teams of the caliber of Monaghan and Fermanagh, maybe shows that they, Armagh, were not focussed on winning their bread and butter provincial games. Or maybe the underdog just rises to the occasion more in Ulster to knock down one of the big boys. We have underdogs too in Munster and we have been in a few scraps over the years with most of them.
Teams seem to be at a more even level in Ulster, but that's not to say thay are at a higher level of skill or fitnass, you can get a cracking game between two evenly matched junior teams and it can be very intense but either one of them will get beaten if they come up against even a decent senior team. The level of intensity last weekend between Donegal and Tyrone was all one sided.
Quote from: armaghniac on June 22, 2007, 10:58:47 AM
If you abolish the provincials, then there is only one cup in the year, many teams will not win Sam for decades, but can aspire to a provincial championship.
How many teams aspire to a provincial championship,yet don't aspire to an All-Ireland?
I think we have to change our mindset,and as gaels we have a responsibility to ensure optimal development of our games in a new era,where soccer and Rugby are a bigger challenge than ever before.
We have a plethora of quality venues throughout the country ,which are rarely filled.
We bum and blow about big crowds @ GAA matches ,but that's because there's so few meaningful GAA matches each year-that when they occur,they're obviously going to be attractive,and thereby fill stadia.
Kerry's dominance in GF is not an accident ,and not due to any secret formula-In reality Kerry has a large GAA playing base ,and no significant competition from other sports.Their seasonal preparation involves only having to peak for 4 games a year.This is ridiculously unfair to other counties.I think Kerry Mike's jealous guarding of the current system speaks for itself.
In our own county for example,if GAA is going to optimally compete for the hearts and minds of our youth--we need to be filling Newry as many times a year as possible.Capacity venues are priceless,yet the current system doesn't allow for enough of these fixtures.The capacity Croke park games involving Dublin have been the single biggest marketing tool for the GAA in recent years.
Personally I think there needs to be a guarantee of meaningful games for EVERY county compressed throughout the summer months,with the rest of the year dedicated to club/schools/colleges football,and a proper closed season.During the county season club football will continue but without county players,and the All-Ireland series should be finished by the end of August,to allow all players back to their clubs earlier.
I think this needs to driven by Player welfare,club representatives and marketing experts.
We have superb games,intense rivalries,outstanding venues,but burnt-out players.The current provincial system/league structure is a millstone around our necks,preventing optimal development of the GAA-and needs to be ditched!
Personally,I would favour a league immediately pre-championship for seeding-leading into a knockout championship with qualifiers and a serious Tommy Murphy with genuine rewarding of winners/runners up.
Tommy Murphy should be akin to an intermediate club championship-a genuine achievement in itself,rewarded by an upgrade the following year.The Tommy Murphy cup,currently is an example how negative publicity and poor marketing can trivialise a genuinely good concept.
QuoteKerry's dominance in GF is not an accident ,and not due to any secret formula-In reality Kerry has a large GAA playing base ,and no significant competition from other sports.Their seasonal preparation involves only having to peak for 4 games a year.This is ridiculously unfair to other counties.
I think this is an absolute red herring as evidenced by the argument that Galway hurlers haven't won bucket loads of All-Irelands. The reason Kerry are so good in my view is that their club structures are the best in the land BY A MILE. Tradition etc plays a huge part in it too I accept but the fact is that if you are a good young fella playing football in Kerry, no matter what level or club, you will get every chance and encouragement to improve, make a name for yourself and if good enough break through to wear the green and gold. It's not the case in my county and I dare say alot of other counties.
QuoteThe reason Kerry are so good in my view is that their club structures are the best in the land BY A MILE.
I agree 100% Seanie.
Quote from: magpie seanie on June 22, 2007, 01:15:30 PM
QuoteKerry's dominance in GF is not an accident ,and not due to any secret formula-In reality Kerry has a large GAA playing base ,and no significant competition from other sports.Their seasonal preparation involves only having to peak for 4 games a year.This is ridiculously unfair to other counties.
I think this is an absolute red herring as evidenced by the argument that Galway hurlers haven't won bucket loads of All-Irelands. The reason Kerry are so good in my view is that their club structures are the best in the land BY A MILE. Tradition etc plays a huge part in it too I accept but the fact is that if you are a good young fella playing football in Kerry, no matter what level or club, you will get every chance and encouragement to improve, make a name for yourself and if good enough break through to wear the green and gold. It's not the case in my county and I dare say alot of other counties.
Galway's hurlers are not comparable to Kerry footballers.They come into the All-Ireland series completely cold,and in Galway there is real competition form other sports such as rugby and soccer.Also their resources are thin because they are strong at all GAA sports.
Part of the reason why young Kerry footballers develop so well,is because they have been brought up in an atmoshere of success,probably coached by an All-Ireland winner,and they know that if they get onto a Kerry squad ,they're almost guaranteed an All-Ireland medal.
Why should the rest of us be robbed of that opportunity.Having seen Kerry club football at first hand,I'm not convinced they have concocted a master plan for club football.However,the AI system favours their clubs as well,because they know that their county team every year will only be involved in meaningful games from late June to September ,and club football can continue without county players in the summer months,with county players being available for their clubs for the rest of the year.Again,this ideal club structure is not available to other counties,given our less predictable seasons.
Look at Sligo-most recent success via qualifiers,whereas the provincial system hasn't been kind to them.Look what a run of summer games achieved for them .A new system would revitalise counties like Sligo,by guaranteeing a number of meaningful summer games,and allowing more regular club fixtures.
This isn't sour grapes about Kerry,good luck to them for what they've achieved,but the current system is heavily weighted in their favour-Any other sport would laugh at the unfairness of our All-Ireland series-Indeed I'm surprised Fergal Logan hasn't challenged it under European equality legislation--now there's an idea -anybody know Fergal's mobile no,or will I have to ask Paddy Bradley again :D
Quote from: 6th sam on June 22, 2007, 01:44:19 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on June 22, 2007, 01:15:30 PM
QuoteKerry's dominance in GF is not an accident ,and not due to any secret formula-In reality Kerry has a large GAA playing base ,and no significant competition from other sports.Their seasonal preparation involves only having to peak for 4 games a year.This is ridiculously unfair to other counties.
I think this is an absolute red herring as evidenced by the argument that Galway hurlers haven't won bucket loads of All-Irelands. The reason Kerry are so good in my view is that their club structures are the best in the land BY A MILE. Tradition etc plays a huge part in it too I accept but the fact is that if you are a good young fella playing football in Kerry, no matter what level or club, you will get every chance and encouragement to improve, make a name for yourself and if good enough break through to wear the green and gold. It's not the case in my county and I dare say alot of other counties.
Galway's hurlers are not comparable to Kerry footballers.They come into the All-Ireland series completely cold,and in Galway there is real competition form other sports such as rugby and soccer.Also their resources are thin because they are strong at all GAA sports.
Part of the reason why young Kerry footballers develop so well,is because they have been brought up in an atmoshere of success,probably coached by an All-Ireland winner,and they know that if they get onto a Kerry squad ,they're almost guaranteed an All-Ireland medal.
Why should the rest of us be robbed of that opportunity.Having seen Kerry club football at first hand,I'm not convinced they have a magic formula at club level.
Look at Sligo-most recent success via qualifiers,whereas the provincial system hasn't been kind to them.Look what a run of summer games achieved for them .A new system would revitalise counties like Sligo,by guaranteeing a number of meaningful summer games.
This isn't sour grapes about Kerry,good luck to them for what they've achieved,but the current system is heavily weighted in their favour-Any other sport would laugh at the unfairness of our All-Ireland series-Indeed I'm surprised Fergal Logan hasn't challenged it under European equality legislation!!
Kerry you claim had an easy ride to the AI but last year so did Dublin and they where caught out . So that doesn't balance out . Galway and Mayo have had periods of easy rides to the AI to yet they have won like kerry
Regardless of (perceived) easy or tough provincial passages, the only guaranteed fair way, is for all teams to play the same number of games.
The current set-up is neither fish nor fowl, can neither swim nor fly, time it was overhauled.
QuoteLook at Sligo-most recent success via qualifiers,whereas the provincial system hasn't been kind to them.Look what a run of summer games achieved for them
All it achieved was make us fell good for a while and let people who don't know much about GAA know we had a few decent footballers along with Eamonn O'Hara. You ask any of the players and they'd swap those qualifier wins for a medal.
QuoteA new system would revitalise counties like Sligo,by guaranteeing a number of meaningful summer games.
To be honest if you think the structure of senior inter county competition would have a marked effect on the standard of our county team the I'd have to oppose this notion strongly. As for revitalising "counties like Sligo" I'd be more concerned about the ones we beat in the qualifiers. ;)
Quotein Galway there is real competition form other sports such as rugby and soccer
In Kerry both those sports are pretty strong too. I'm sure the Kerry bucks will bear me out on that.
To me the biggest problem with the current system is that the county cmpetitive season lasts for nine months. Throw in pre season and you have some counties trainng for 11 months of the year. Now in my opinion the competitions from Jan to May, namely the league and the provincial warm ups such as FBD league and McKenna Cup are meaningless competitions. The provinicial championships in the eyes of some have also, at the very least, become a lot less important than they once were. As a result the business end of the All Ireland for some counties (Cork, Kerry, Galway and Mayo) most years does not begin until August by which time they are either in the last 12 or the quarter final.
This is unfair - plain and simple.
The current system means that from October to May (and for some counties August) they are playing meaningless matches that with respect to their overall goal are not important.
I simply believe that the competitons suc as the FBD and the McKenna Cup aswell as the NFL be scrapped, the Provincial Championships be played off on a league format between Jan and March and then a knockout competition, with a back door system built in, played between April and early August.
I believe that the only way to make the All Ireland fair is to have teams playing the same number of games and also having peak for the same time.
But this is not my primary reason for changing the current system. I really want to change it because I think it is crippiling the club structure. While a county is involved a club plays second fiddle, always has and always will. But by filling up most of the footballing year with county action we have prolonged this period of second fiddle playing to most of the year!
The clubs is where we will capture the hearts and minds of the youth of Ireland. Yes glamour ties involving the county team is all well and good but if we are to breed a strong association where people are committed Gaels and not merely sunshine supporters we must offer a strong association at club level. How can we do this when there is no respect shown for the club. How many times do county players train with their clubs? Are clubs afforded the same respect in terms of preparation for their championship as the county is?
I fear that we have got carreid away with the razzamatazz ofrecent All Ireland's and we have taken our eye off the ball. We have what looks like a vibrant bustling organisation but at grass roots level I fear we are crumbling.
magpie seanie,
Obviously success in the qualifiers,gave you a bit of boost ,if you're still blowing about last year's victory over us ;)
I didn't mean to patronise you,but I think it's good for the GAA to see relatively new kids on the block making an impact:sligo,fermanagh,laois,wexford.
Though my own county,have had no senior success in recent years,we did sample success in the 90s,and have had underage success more recently.I'd love to be supporting the mourne county in major games again,but that is not the main thrust of my argument.
All I want is for GAA to reach it's potential.As a child and an adult ,I attended as many games as I could,but often this would amount to 1-2 games per year.Soccer fans on the other hand can watch numerous meaningul matches for 10 months of the year.Even Irish league soccer fans can watch their team weekly.
How great would it be to be able to take my own kids to packed stadia to support their team 9-10 games every summer.
The provincial series "magic" can easily be replaced by novel pairings such as Kerry-Dublin,Cork-Tyrone,Sligo-Fermanagh,Down-Meath, week in/week out.
I agree with "believe,believe",regarding club football-it is the bedrock of our association,and caters for >90% of our playing members.A more compact county season from late May to August,allows county players more time with their clubs,and will allow for club competitions to continue without county players in the summer.Dare I say,like the way Heneken cup and Magniers league operate in rugby.
If those that jealously guard the old system are convinced of its merits-allow a 1 year trial of the new system,and see if there is a desire to return.
Time to change!
QuoteThe provincial series "magic" can easily be replaced by novel pairings such as Kerry-Dublin,Cork-Tyrone,Sligo-Fermanagh,Down-Meath, week in/week out.
In fairness we get many games such as those in the qualifiers already. I also wonder how many people would attend for example a Sligo v Fermanagh if they had both lost their first few games in a round robin system and had nothing to play for? My guess is not very many.
Plus you could take the example of Sligo who haven't won a Connacht title in 32 years. To win one would be a huge deal for them and lead to great celebrations. The thought of winning a provincial title is what keeps many smaller counties going.
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on June 22, 2007, 02:37:34 PM
QuoteThe provincial series "magic" can easily be replaced by novel pairings such as Kerry-Dublin,Cork-Tyrone,Sligo-Fermanagh,Down-Meath, week in/week out.
In fairness we get many games such as those in the qualifiers already. I also wonder how many people would attend for example a Sligo v Fermanagh if they had both lost their first few games in a round robin system and had nothing to play for? My guess is not very many.
Plus you could take the example of Sligo who haven't won a Connacht title in 32 years. To win one would be a huge deal for them and lead to great celebrations. The thought of winning a provincial title is what keeps many smaller counties going.
GalwayBayBoy I think the Provincals are devalued for the likes of Mayo, Galway, Kerry, Armagh, Tyrone & Dublin who win them on a regular basis but for the likes of Limerick, Sligo, Leitrim, Fermanagh, Donegal, Cavan, Kildare, Offaly etc. it would be a very big deal. However the very fact that it seems to be so easy for the 6 I mentioned as winning it regularly to win, when another county wins it it makes it even sweeter, my phone is full of texts since Mayo lost of friends from Sligo, Offaly & Wexford who are still in the Championship & like pointing it out [they seem to have forgot we still in the Championship too, but I know what they mean]
In reply to Galway Boy,Interesting that you want to continue a system that deprives your neighbours of a title for 32 years!Interesting that the only posters on here defending the current system are from connacht (5 counties) or munster (6 counties,only 2 serious contenders)
Regarding the qualifiers,even for the least glamourous ties,they attract larger attendances in summer than a comparable league match in winter!
In the new system every game has meaning,with those knocked out 1st entering a genuinely meaningful Tommy Murphy,and those that remain only 1 game away from an all-ireland 1/4 final.
With every county guaranteed summer football,and club football revitalised.
Mid Louth , as I have said before I do not doubt for one second the joy and emtion winning a Provincial title would bring to the likes of Louth, Sligo, Fermanagh, Wexford etc For them the winning a Provincial title would not be devalued but and its a big but winning a provincial title is not as important as it used to be to the likes of Armagh, Dublin, Cork, Kerry, Mayo, Galyway and Tyrone. With respect to this I believe that as a whole the Provincial Championships have become devalued compared to what they were before the introduction of the backdoor.
I truly believe that the only way we are going to get to a stage where the club is on an equal footing with the county is to have two seperate seasons. They only way to do this is to streamline the county season. Scraping the Provincial Championships and playing a 32 county straight knock out with a back door system is the fairest system of all and I think would be for the greatre good of the Association in the long run.
Shit - i can't get the hang of that quote button thing - my thoughts are the last few lines of the quote box.
Quote from: believebelive on June 22, 2007, 04:25:13 PM
Shit - i can't get the hang of that quote button thing - my thoughts are the last few lines of the quote box.
Just edit it believebelive, and move the lowermost quote to up above your own piece.
Fair enough and that is great that the matches are getting played but I think that it is still unfair to ask clubs to play their premier competition (the Championship) while their county players are not available for training and often miss league matches, friendlies and so on.
I know in my own club the perception from the club players is that the season does not really start until the few county players come back.
Why shoud a county team be afforded the opportunity to train with full attendence and prepare as best they can for their championship when a club team is not given the same chance? maybe Louth is different and county players are released to train for their clubs but that is not the cse in most counties.
How about playing the all ireland as a champions league like tournament, 8 groups of 4 teams, then 2 out of each group go to the last 16, the 3rd place team goes to Tommy Murpy cup quater finals. This results in a minimum of 3games for each team, and a competitive Tommy Murphy cup.
Play the provincial competitions as a league format in place of the current league structure, with the four provincial winners going to the semi final of the national league.
Four groups of eight.
Kilkenny won't play so London and NewYork can play off to see who enters.
Play off the group stage between May and July with a geme every 2 weeks.
Top 2 in each group play Sam Maguire knockout q/finals.......
3rd and 4th play Matt Connor Cup Q/finals........
5th and 6th play Tommy Cooper cup Q/finals.......
and so on....
Final position in the group determines cedeing in next years group draw.
Play Q/f S/f and Finals in 4 competitions between Aug/Sep
No League, replaced by group stages.
Play knockout provincial championships in Mar/Apr instead of things like O'Byrne Cup.
Every team is playing ball from Mar to Sep
Every team progesses through the competitions on an equal basis.
Clubs play their competitions without county players.
As a club palyer I would rather have had meaningful games than sit on me arse waiting for one or two county players to become available and end up playing shite tournaments or 7 asides through the summer.
Plain and simple...the Provincial championships should be detached from the All Ireland. Either a chmpions league style format which is not based on geographical location or a straight forward open draw for the All Ireland.
The Provincials can be run instead of competitions such as the McKenna Cup, O'Byrne Cup etc.
QuoteGalway's hurlers are not comparable to Kerry footballers.They come into the All-Ireland series completely cold,and in Galway there is real competition form other sports such as rugby and soccer.Also their resources are thin because they are strong at all GAA sports
You claim to have watched Kerry club football but I doubt you have ever been to the county if you come out with tripe like that.
Also, you might reflect a while on Ulster hurling and the fact that neither yourselves or Antrim have even come close to winning an AI despite having no "real competition" year in, year out in Ulster. How do you explain that ? ...no doubt you will come up with a myriad of excuses....that fact that you are just not good enough would never enter your head of course.
One thing is for sure, if the Kerry hurlers had the same oppotunities that you lads have had there'd be a few Liam McCarthy cups winging their way to Tralee.. but I dont see yourselves or Antrim launching campaigns to rescue Kerry hurling from the "unfair" Munster Championship.
The system the system . Keep blaming the system . Hoiw many counties fall on their ass once they hit the qualifiers ?. Larger counties with larger player base will always have an advantage Kerry Mike is right no one casres about Kerry Hurling . How many people watch Down home league games ?.If we have an ope draw how will it affect attendances and take from the gates that provincaL councils get from Local derbys . The gaa needs money to compete with other sports what will replace this revenue . Been realistic only 2 teams south of Portaoise can win the football and only 1 team north of Portlaoise can win the Hurling
QuoteIf those that jealously guard the old system are convinced of its merits-allow a 1 year trial of the new system,and see if there is a desire to return. Time to change!
There is no jealously guarding the current system, in fact if Munster is supposed to be so weak and we get an easy spin to an All Ireland final every year, maybe under a new system if we got a few tough games under our belt we would be some team come September.
I dont buy into this crap that teams are burnt out by the time they get to an All Ireland 1/4 Final. Kerry aim to peak for every game and that includes the league which we take very seriously, to say we aim to peak for August or September is something that may have happened in the 70's but not anymore, every team will have trouble raising their game against lower opposition on any given day be it club or county competitions and the happens all the time in all provinces. And even in other sports.
For any county to win an All Ireland it should take no more than 6 games spread over 5 months, Tyrone took 10 games to win in 05 but that was extreme as they drew 3 games and lost one, one of those draws against Cavan whom they subsequently hammered by 21 pts. And with all due respect to Cavan there had to be a severe mental issue with Tyrone in that first game. Imagine the outcry if Cavan had beaten them.
If any team can't get fit and focused for those 6 games it does not say much about their preperations. Winning is largely a mental thing along with fitness and obviously good footballing skills.
But there is no point talking about change, we are all great to talk the talk and sit at a computer and on a bar stool and talk shite about another "easy" All Ireland for Kerry but how many have the balls to get up off their holes and get down to their next clubs meeting and table a motion to change the structure of the provincial championship. Get it moved through to your County Convention and your Provincial Council and onto Central Council and passed by all sections of our great democratic Association.
If that happens and there is some new system in place so be it, we in Kerry will take it on and I'd take a good stab that we would probably be successfull in that too. I think the last 100% knock out Trophy that was brought in, the Ford Bucket in 1985, is still being used back in West Kerry by a Mr P.O'Se to feed the calves. That was another great idea that ended in the Bin.
Anyway it time to head to the bar and talk some shite...
Why waste time debating something that just aint going to happen, Money and Tradition still count. First round game in ulster Championship Down v Armagh= packed Stadium. First round game Down v Kerry in Killarney, you get the picture
QuoteThere is no jealously guarding the current system, in fact if Munster is supposed to be so weak and we get an easy spin to an All Ireland final every year, maybe under a new system if we got a few tough games under our belt we would be some team come September.
Exactly, and was it not Joe Kernan that was whinging that there was no advantage to winning Ulster due to the long layoff and the relative advantage that teams coming in the back door have due to extra games.
So, apparently, lack of competitive games is an advantage to Kerry but its a disadvantage to Ulster teams !!
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 22, 2007, 07:54:07 PM
QuoteGalway's hurlers are not comparable to Kerry footballers.They come into the All-Ireland series completely cold,and in Galway there is real competition form other sports such as rugby and soccer.Also their resources are thin because they are strong at all GAA sports
You claim to have watched Kerry club football but I doubt you have ever been to the county if you come out with tripe like that.
Also, you might reflect a while on Ulster hurling and the fact that neither yourselves or Antrim have even come close to winning an AI despite having no "real competition" year in, year out in Ulster. How do you explain that ? ...no doubt you will come up with a myriad of excuses....that fact that you are just not good enough would never enter your head of course.
One thing is for sure, if the Kerry hurlers had the same oppotunities that you lads have had there'd be a few Liam McCarthy cups winging their way to Tralee.. but I dont see yourselves or Antrim launching campaigns to rescue Kerry hurling from the "unfair" Munster Championship.
Obviously with 3 irate replies from kerry mike ,we seem to have hit a raw nerve!
By the way ,how would playing in a weak ulster be such an advantage to kerry hurlers ,yet you don't consider playing in a weak munster an advantage to kerry footballers--I can't grasp your logic.
I would agree that Ulster Hurling should not be given any advantage.
The fact is that in the past 20 odd years,8 different ulster counties have played in AI semi-finals,whereas apart from Clare's 1 munster title,Kerry or Cork have got a free ride.While not taking away from the fact that Kerry are an outstanding team,they've definitely benefitted from a skewed system,and the rewards it has brought them..
If Kerry Mike is convinced of the dominance of Kerry football--let Kerry test that dominance in a fairer system.