Borrowing Gay's Meaning of Life phrase - what do you think happens after we die?
Undertaker gets notified,as does Irish News,wake,funeral and tae and sandwiches in GAA club
Lights out. Simple as.
We go into an eternal darkness!
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662) offers a pragmatic reason for believing in God: even under the assumption that God's existence is unlikely, the potential benefits of believing are so vast as to make betting on theism rational.
Quote from: ONeill on March 31, 2016, 09:51:31 PM
Borrowing Gay's Meaning of Life phrase - what do you think happens after we die?
For me I'd love it be a follow on from the life we lived when we were at our most happiest..... But that's just horseshit, it's lights out and that's that!! So enjoy what you have and have no regrets
Quote from: From the Bunker on March 31, 2016, 10:02:49 PM
We go into an eternal darkness!
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662) offers a pragmatic reason for believing in God: even under the assumption that God's existence is unlikely, the potential benefits of believing are so vast as to make betting on theism rational.
It's a handy bet for those who believe.
If only belief were a choice...
Two 90 year old men, TOM and PAT have been friends all their lives.It became clear Pat was dying,and Tom visited him every day.One day Tom says,"Pat we both loved hurling all our lives and we played together all our lives for many years right up from under 12.Please do me one favour,When you get to heaven,somehow you must let me know if Hurling is played up there".Pat looks up at Tom from his deathbed,"Tom you`ve been my best friend for many tears .If it is at all possible,I`ll do this favour for you."
Shortly after that,Pat passes on. At midnight a couple of nights later,Tom is awakened from a sound sleep by a blinding flash of light and a voice calling out to him,"Tom!Tom!"."Who is it ?" asks Tom sitting up suddenly. "Who Is it?""Tom it is me Pat.""You are not Pat, Pat has just died.""I`m telling you it is me Pat," insists voice."Pat!Where are you ?""In Heaven"replies Pat. "I have some really good news and a little bit of bad news.""Tell me the good news first," says Tom.
"The good news ," says Pat, "is that there is Hurling in Heaven. Better still all our old buddies who died before us are here, too. Better than that,we`re all young again. Better still,it`s always springtime and it never rains or snows,so there is no need for a defunct refixtures commitee to mess things up.and best of all,we can play all the hurling we want and we never get tired or injured......"
"That's fantastic," says Tom."it is beyond my wildest dreams!So what could possibly be the bad news?"
"You're playing corner forward Tuesday night!"
What about the true story of a man crucified on the cross who rose again on the third day?
...go on...
Our spirit (soul) goes to the Light.
Quote from: T Fearon on March 31, 2016, 10:25:46 PM
What about the true story of a man crucified on the cross who rose again on the third day?
And this time of year too.
Quote from: Rossfan on March 31, 2016, 10:27:26 PM
Our spirit (soul) goes to the Light.
Does yer dog's spirit too?
No other story has claimed so many followers over 2000 years on,all the same
Quote from: T Fearon on March 31, 2016, 10:32:20 PM
No other story has claimed so many followers over 2000 years on,all the same
2000 years was a decent innings. 200'000 years of humans on the planet. 2000 is good.
From twitter ;D
Jesus H Christ @ThatBloke_Jesus Mar 27
Just walked in the pub and all the guys were like "No way"
And I was like "Yahweh"
Would be nice to think we go on to something better. Don't think so though. You get stuck in the ground, and that'll be that.
Quote from: ONeill on March 31, 2016, 10:29:24 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 31, 2016, 10:27:26 PM
Our spirit (soul) goes to the Light.
Does yer dog's spirit too?
Of course. Life changed not ended. All energy diverted.
Science will catch up some day ;)
We shall all return as butterflies.
What I would like when i die is to receive the answers to the mysteries of space & it's creation - assuming they're not figured out before i die.
Quote from: bennydorano on April 01, 2016, 12:13:22 AM
What I would like when i die is to receive the answers to the mysteries of space & it's creation - assuming they're not figured out before i die.
+1
' Once you're gone,
you don't come back;
when you're out of the blue,
you're into the black'.
Quote from: BennyCake on March 31, 2016, 11:56:40 PM
Would be nice to think we go on to something better. Don't think so though. You get stuck in the ground, and that'll be that.
Choose cremation and you won't be stuck in the ground at all.
I'm an agnostic I suppose - my rational mind tells me that there is no afterlife. But I've had two experiences that made me question where I stand on the issue.
The first was where I was involved in an accident and i was knocked out for about six hours. I woke up, thankfully, and recovered quickly. But I could not remember anything of that six hours. I began thinking of it as this cold blackness, and naturally I equated that to what death could be like. It was a scary thought, and I brooded on it for a while (this was all a few years after the accident). Then two things occurred to me. Firstly, I (obviously) had not died, and there was no reason to think that death necessarily had to be like what I had experienced, since what it was was a loss of conciousness, and most of the world's religions centre around a belief in the retention of some form of conciousness after death. Secondly, the cold dark chasm that so scared me was only my concious mind rationalising the experience, filling in the blanks as it were, and if death does equate to a complete extinguishing of my concious mind, I won't be around to scare myself with thoughts of blackness and chasm. That's actually quite a relief.
The second though, came when my son was very, very ill. It was touch and go for a very long time, so much so that he received a blessing one night by the hospital chaplain as it was very likely he would not make it. I'll never forget it, or how I felt, and the over riding feeling was that there was something bigger than all of us in play, forces beyond our understanding, moving and rumbling around above our heads. This was not a comforting thought. How I perceived it was quite cold and dispassionate - we were completely helpless, and of course, praying and appealing to God (a God who I'd never really thought of in a serious way for years). But it wasn't a God figure or presence I felt - it was almost like being in a large building that is stripped down to the bone, the paint scraped off, the plaster removed, and just vast beams left on display, the real core that, no matter how hard you crash your fists against it, never yields and never changes.
Happily, very happily, he pulled through. But the entire experience left me feeling that there is, not a higher power out there, but a deeper structure, one that is very hard to perceive and make sense of. In fact, it very likely has no conciousness or purpose to rationalise with, it might just be the immutable law of birth, growth, decline and death. Or it could be that I was a helpless parent trying to make sense of what was the worst situation I ever found myself in. But no matter how much I tell myself that religion is a myth (which in general I think is true) or that science can explain everything, I find myself thinking of those stripped walls, those bare beams, and the rumble of a gigantic game of dice that we don't understand and may never do.
I love to read and there are two books that really made an impression on my thinking about this kind of thing. The first is Cloud Atlas by David Mitchell (and if you've only seen the awful film version, please get the book, it's fantastic). The second is The Road by Cormac McCarthy, which I know loads of you have read. The final lines of each book are what I think about when think about mortality (no spoilers contained)
From Cloud Atlas
"Naive, dreaming Adam. He who would do battle with the many-headed hydra of human nature must pay a world of pain & his family must pay it along with him! & only as you gasp your dying breath shall you understand, your life amounted to no more than one drop in a limitless ocean!"
Yet what is any ocean but a multitude of drops?
From The Road
Once there were brook trouts in the streams in the mountains. You could see them standing in the amber current where the white edges of their fins wimpled softly in the flow. They smelled of moss in your hand. Polished and muscular and torsional. On their backs were vermiculate patterns that were maps of the world in its becoming. Maps and mazes. Of a thing which could not be put back. Not be made right again. In the deep glens where they lived all things were older than man and they hummed of mystery.
And tomorrow I go back to pointless arguments about politics and GAA. Ah well, everyone needs a hobby.
Night all.
Quote from: bennydorano on April 01, 2016, 12:13:22 AM
What I would like when i die is to receive the answers to the mysteries of space & it's creation - assuming they're not figured out before i die.
Considering we can't make any sense of the 5% of the universe that is made up of empirical matter. I would say you'll be waiting till the here after
Great open post there Easy Tiger. Glad your son pulled thru BTW
Consciousness really does remain a mystery to all outlooks and perspectives
I subscribe to the end is the end theory as well. It doesn't bother me so much though and you read a lot about people putting stock into living their lives a certain way and they'll get into heaven.
I think that's a sad way to live your life worrying about something you have no control over and that may not exist. Try to be happy and don't be too much of a **** too often and you'll be grand I say!
Tia Maria
Quote from: screenexile on April 01, 2016, 01:32:10 AM
I subscribe to the end is the end theory as well. It doesn't bother me so much though and you read a lot about people putting stock into living their lives a certain way and they'll get into heaven.
I think that's a sad way to live your life worrying about something you have no control over and that may not exist. Try to be happy and don't be too much of a **** too often and you'll be grand I say!
Well thats the deal you see, most faiths believe you do have a measure of control over it or at the very least how you perceive it.
The question I would ask is if ultimately if you are just floating atoms why not be ****
Something like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwFaSpca_3Q
Ceol na n aingil
Come back in another energy form maybe
Humans are Johnny- Come - Latelys on this Earth in the big scheme of things. Over a couple millions of years we developed skills that allowed us to go from surviving ( probably just about - other humanoids did not make it ) and breeding to being successful enough to build things and domesticate other animals and plants. That was the big game changer in our development. You could argue everything came from that. I m not saying there was no religion before farming but that facilitated a massive development overall.Our success and evolution led to developments like comlex language and as a result communication of thought and ides beyond what other species can do. It is not a big leap that a fear of death would become a big deal in the consciousness of later evolving humans, as some had more time to think rather than just scrabble around for something to eat.
Religion is mostly about death anyway. And fear of being killed/death is what keeps most species alive in the first place. It is understandable that with our consciousness that we don t want death to be the end, and equally as important, we don t want to give up on those we love that die.
Belief in an afterlife was a comfort and still is. Flowers were placed on Neantherthal burials. The Pyramids, Newgrange ,Stonehenge and more recently the Mayans etc. are just older manifestations of human hope in an afterlife/or belief in some God(s). Modern religions are no different.
Im not really disagreeing with you as to that's how things happened in the physical sense. But everything your talking about, right from physical matter to time itself is only really a creation and/or perception of the mind.
In the physical/empirical sense of course we die and rot in the ground and that's hardly news, but I hardly think that's what we are talking about what happens when we die. However since the world cannot fully explain the actions in standard physics a very complex theory on explaining it has been devised called quantum mechanics. The problem is we cant really study that realm using conventional means, its a realm that we understand and know mainly by using our minds rather than our senses. So it is a realm that is completely unrecognisable to the world that we experience/percieve. In fact in that realm we dont really die at all which just hang around and become something else.
My point is we dont really know what it is out there in front of our face or even what we are made of, the only thing we really know for sure is that we exist, we can think, and we can reason and that our senses give us clues as to what is outside of that however its the aforementioned qualities that allow us to make any sense of it and they also let us know its not really an accurate picture that we are getting.
Also I think that the current historical evidence from Gobekli Tepe in Turkey indicates that the earliest known civilisation was formed for purposes of religion while the people where still largely fed on a hunter gather diet. So religion was likely the key driver in the development of civilisation and was at the core for forming the rules and values that bind society together but probably most importantly of all is a key component and reflection of the faith that burns within us.
Quote from: bennydorano on April 01, 2016, 12:13:22 AM
What I would like when i die is to receive the answers to the mysteries of space & it's creation - assuming they're not figured out before i die.
That and how they put the figs in the fig rolls.
I think an afterlife was created by religions because the human mind couldn't comprehend that this was it. Not only that, but it was also a control issue. Be good and you'll get to heaven.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2545668/Is-proof-near-death-experiences-ARE-real-Extraordinary-new-book-intensive-care-nurse-reveals-dramatic-evidence-says-banish-fear-dying.html
Quote from: laoislad on April 01, 2016, 07:49:56 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on April 01, 2016, 12:13:22 AM
What I would like when i die is to receive the answers to the mysteries of space & it's creation - assuming they're not figured out before i die.
That and how they put the figs in the fig rolls.
Chances are slim either road.
Not saying there are days I don't question by faith, but I've seen enough in my relevantly short period on Earth to say there's nothing out there.
I do find peace when I visit the Chapel for quiet prayer and reflection and I always feel close to God when I visit Lourdes.
So is there last few after death, undoubtedly so in my eyes.
Go home Ziggy, you're drunk.
The best description of the afterlife is the final chapter of Julian Barnes' "History of the World in 10 1/2 Chapters. The rest of the book is touch and go, but the finale is astounding.
In summary, should we end up in an afterlife where everything we ever coveted is only a wish away, then before too long we will get bored, and actually elect for mortality over eternal "happiness". This is the crux of the afterlife problem for me; our emotional fibre is a byproduct of the world in which we exist, and it's impossible to believe that we could be the same "person" unless our new environment enjoyed underlying similarities. If not then it's not actually "us" who are inhabiting it.
My rational mind tells me it's lights out when we go, however, I also think there is every possibility that there is a much greater scheme at play here than we could ever comprehend. Why should the possibility of an afterlife be anymore ridiculous than the fact that we're here in the first place ... floating around in the great cosmic mix on this spec of a stoney planet we call Earth.
My father and I had this conversation over a late night pint a couple of years ago. He was of the opinion that it would be great to think there was a better place, where all your family and friends who had gone before were awaiting you in a pub that never closed and where Luke Kelly was the resident singer every night! But he came to the conclusion that death was most likely like the switching off of a light switch, when you're gone, that's it, there's nothing.
My Dad passed pretty suddenly last year, I was with him in the last couple of hours when he had unexpectedly taken critically ill. Although he was fully conscious, he started to point to the end of the bed, and gesturing. It was taking all of his efforts to keep breathing so I never asked at the time. I always wondered what he was seeing. I left him outside the operating theatre doors, when he pulled an oxygen mask off to tell me he'd see me on the other side. I took the meaning from this that he meant the other side of the operation he was about to have to try to get him stabilised. No more than 5 minutes later he was gone. Despite 45 mins more of attempts to resuscitate him, he never responded.
I'd love to think that he's in that pub now watching Luke Kelly sound checking for the night ahead!
Quote from: balladmaker on April 01, 2016, 07:37:39 PM
My rational mind tells me it's lights out when we go, however, I also think there is every possibility that there is a much greater scheme at play here than we could ever comprehend. Why should the possibility of an afterlife be anymore ridiculous than the fact that we're here in the first place ... floating around in the great cosmic mix on this spec of a stoney planet we call Earth.
My father and I had this conversation over a late night pint a couple of years ago. He was of the opinion that it would be great to think there was a better place, where all your family and friends who had gone before were awaiting you in a pub that never closed and where Luke Kelly was the resident singer every night! But he came to the conclusion that death was most likely like the switching off of a light switch, when you're gone, that's it, there's nothing.
My Dad passed pretty suddenly last year, I was with him in the last couple of hours when he had unexpectedly taken critically ill. Although he was fully conscious, he started to point to the end of the bed, and gesturing. It was taking all of his efforts to keep breathing so I never asked at the time. I always wondered what he was seeing. I left him outside the operating theatre doors, when he pulled an oxygen mask off to tell me he'd see me on the other side. I took the meaning from this that he meant the other side of the operation he was about to have to try to get him stabilised. No more than 5 minutes later he was gone. Despite 45 mins more of attempts to resuscitate him, he never responded.
I'd love to think that he's in that pub now watching Luke Kelly sound checking for the night ahead!
I hope so too - with David Bowie and Elvis as the opening acts :)
Quote from: balladmaker on April 01, 2016, 07:37:39 PM
My rational mind tells me it's lights out when we go, however, I also think there is every possibility that there is a much greater scheme at play here than we could ever comprehend. Why should the possibility of an afterlife be anymore ridiculous than the fact that we're here in the first place ... floating around in the great cosmic mix on this spec of a stoney planet we call Earth.
My father and I had this conversation over a late night pint a couple of years ago. He was of the opinion that it would be great to think there was a better place, where all your family and friends who had gone before were awaiting you in a pub that never closed and where Luke Kelly was the resident singer every night! But he came to the conclusion that death was most likely like the switching off of a light switch, when you're gone, that's it, there's nothing.
My Dad passed pretty suddenly last year, I was with him in the last couple of hours when he had unexpectedly taken critically ill. Although he was fully conscious, he started to point to the end of the bed, and gesturing. It was taking all of his efforts to keep breathing so I never asked at the time. I always wondered what he was seeing. I left him outside the operating theatre doors, when he pulled an oxygen mask off to tell me he'd see me on the other side. I took the meaning from this that he meant the other side of the operation he was about to have to try to get him stabilised. No more than 5 minutes later he was gone. Despite 45 mins more of attempts to resuscitate him, he never responded.
I'd love to think that he's in that pub now watching Luke Kelly sound checking for the night ahead!
There is lots of speculation about what the afterlife will be like. Many people think that we'll all be 33 which was the age Jesus was when he was crucified. This doesn't have to degrade into a Does God exist debate. Thanks for sharing your story balladmaker. I'd like to think that someone from your family very closely resembling you, came for your Dad. Maybe look through old photographs and see who in there 30s looked like you....
I believe in the afterlife. Heaven, hell, purgatory.
I think that the lack of faith in an afterlife in Western society can be attributed to the acceptance of deductive reasoning in science and its subsequent increased use into everyday life. This is despite accepted conclusions about our lives and society being arrived at using inductive reasoning, intuition and blind faith.
Nice post balladmaker.
Nice post, balladmaker.
The sense that someone is there with a person who is dying I've heard before. A family member when dying mentioned people who had died, as if they were in the room. Could the person see them or was the body/brain in a confused state as the body was shutting down? It's hard to know.
Quote from: The Iceman on April 01, 2016, 08:38:51 PM
There is lots of speculation about what the afterlife will be like. Many people think that we'll all be 33 which was the age Jesus was when he was crucified. This doesn't have to degrade into a Does God exist debate. Thanks for sharing your story balladmaker. I'd like to think that someone from your family very closely resembling you, came for your Dad. Maybe look through old photographs and see who in there 30s looked like you....
I believe in the afterlife. Heaven, hell, purgatory.
Some horseshite on this thread but this tops the lot, does that include stillborns(oh no they probably go to purgatory for the only sin of not making it to the altar alive to be christened) and what about people who die before their 33, what complete and utter tosh!
This thread, which is about a delicate enough matter has run for three pages without a nasty word posted, then you put that up. Have you nothing better to be at
Quote from: ONeill on March 31, 2016, 09:51:31 PM
Borrowing Gay's Meaning of Life phrase - what do you think happens after we die?
This was the opening quote, am I not entitled to my opinion, Iceman reckons there are some poor folk in purgatory presumably because they were unfortunate enough to die before they got christened or happen to have an illness which meant the poor sods took their own life.
Of course you are entitled to your opinion so is he, you don't have to agree with him but you don't need to insult him using adjectives like horseshit and utter tosh
I would rather call a spade a spade.
The religious emphasis on after death so people follow orders goes with our contempt for the environment and the conditions that make life possible. I go to mass every so often and marvel at the shite people are told. Undeterred by our unworthiness. Do not consider what we truly deserve. Lord. Forgive us for our sins. What sins?
And as for paradise maybe the sight of a child smiling or Kilkenny losing an all Ireland is heaven. Deferring the appreciation of quality is stupid.
Not living long enough to be christened and forgiven of original sin - for shame!
If you dig up a body that was buried then it'll still be there so I think that answers the question.
Seriously though, what happens to all the people that died before JC decided to come down and tell us he's the one? Through no fault of their own they worshipped false gods.
Quote from: Esmarelda on April 02, 2016, 02:22:20 PM
If you dig up a body that was buried then it'll still be there so I think that answers the question.
Seriously though, what happens to all the people that died before JC decided to come down and tell us he's the one? Through no fault of their own they worshipped false gods.
Did JC ever claim to be the Messiah? Others claimed it AFAIK.
Tony Fearon could ride into Jerusalem on a donkey to fulfil scripture and with the right marketing become a messiah.
Quote from: seafoid on April 02, 2016, 02:39:56 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on April 02, 2016, 02:22:20 PM
If you dig up a body that was buried then it'll still be there so I think that answers the question.
Seriously though, what happens to all the people that died before JC decided to come down and tell us he's the one? Through no fault of their own they worshipped false gods.
Did JC ever claim to be the Messiah? Others claimed it AFAIK.
Tony Fearon could ride into Jerusalem on a donkey to fulfil scripture and with the right marketing become a messiah.
I think he did.
Id imagine it is what it was like before I was born
Where would an after life be, in the context of the known Universe, and how would we get there (speed, distance, time etc)?
Quote from: muppet on April 02, 2016, 05:23:07 PM
Where would an after life be, in the context of the known Universe, and how would we get there (speed, distance, time etc)?
How will the Dubs find it. Most of them have never been past the Red Cow.
Quote from: muppet on April 02, 2016, 05:23:07 PM
Where would an after life be, in the context of the known Universe, and how would we get there (speed, distance, time etc)?
Could be in parallel time or somewhere on the apple network
Quote from: easytiger95 on April 01, 2016, 12:50:28 AM
I'm an agnostic I suppose - my rational mind tells me that there is no afterlife. But I've had two experiences that made me question where I stand on the issue.
The first was where I was involved in an accident and i was knocked out for about six hours. I woke up, thankfully, and recovered quickly. But I could not remember anything of that six hours. I began thinking of it as this cold blackness, and naturally I equated that to what death could be like. It was a scary thought, and I brooded on it for a while (this was all a few years after the accident). Then two things occurred to me. Firstly, I (obviously) had not died, and there was no reason to think that death necessarily had to be like what I had experienced, since what it was was a loss of conciousness, and most of the world's religions centre around a belief in the retention of some form of conciousness after death. Secondly, the cold dark chasm that so scared me was only my concious mind rationalising the experience, filling in the blanks as it were, and if death does equate to a complete extinguishing of my concious mind, I won't be around to scare myself with thoughts of blackness and chasm. That's actually quite a relief.
The second though, came when my son was very, very ill. It was touch and go for a very long time, so much so that he received a blessing one night by the hospital chaplain as it was very likely he would not make it. I'll never forget it, or how I felt, and the over riding feeling was that there was something bigger than all of us in play, forces beyond our understanding, moving and rumbling around above our heads. This was not a comforting thought. How I perceived it was quite cold and dispassionate - we were completely helpless, and of course, praying and appealing to God (a God who I'd never really thought of in a serious way for years). But it wasn't a God figure or presence I felt - it was almost like being in a large building that is stripped down to the bone, the paint scraped off, the plaster removed, and just vast beams left on display, the real core that, no matter how hard you crash your fists against it, never yields and never changes.
Happily, very happily, he pulled through. But the entire experience left me feeling that there is, not a higher power out there, but a deeper structure, one that is very hard to perceive and make sense of. In fact, it very likely has no conciousness or purpose to rationalise with, it might just be the immutable law of birth, growth, decline and death. Or it could be that I was a helpless parent trying to make sense of what was the worst situation I ever found myself in. But no matter how much I tell myself that religion is a myth (which in general I think is true) or that science can explain everything, I find myself thinking of those stripped walls, those bare beams, and the rumble of a gigantic game of dice that we don't understand and may never do.
I love to read and there are two books that really made an impression on my thinking about this kind of thing. The first is Cloud Atlas by David Mitchell (and if you've only seen the awful film version, please get the book, it's fantastic). The second is The Road by Cormac McCarthy, which I know loads of you have read. The final lines of each book are what I think about when think about mortality (no spoilers contained)
From Cloud Atlas
"Naive, dreaming Adam. He who would do battle with the many-headed hydra of human nature must pay a world of pain & his family must pay it along with him! & only as you gasp your dying breath shall you understand, your life amounted to no more than one drop in a limitless ocean!"
Yet what is any ocean but a multitude of drops?
From The Road
Once there were brook trouts in the streams in the mountains. You could see them standing in the amber current where the white edges of their fins wimpled softly in the flow. They smelled of moss in your hand. Polished and muscular and torsional. On their backs were vermiculate patterns that were maps of the world in its becoming. Maps and mazes. Of a thing which could not be put back. Not be made right again. In the deep glens where they lived all things were older than man and they hummed of mystery.
And tomorrow I go back to pointless arguments about politics and GAA. Ah well, everyone needs a hobby.
Night all.
Politics and Religion, two things I said I'd never discuss on this forum given the emotive and at times hurtful feelings/comments they give rise to. Anyhow I gave politics a twirl so here goes Religion!
Reading your post yesterday got me thinking about my own experiences. First of all, I'm delighted that your son made a full recovery. You had a really tough time and my heart goes out to you. Sickness in a child is a terrible thing so thank goodness all is well. I had a similar sort of experience, although I started with a very strong faith.
It was rocked first by the death of my mother (after a hard old battle with cancer) and after this my 5 year old niece developed a very advanced form of Neuroblastoma(Thank God, presently it has been 4 years now and it is still in remission). I think seeing my niece and all the other very sick children in the Hospital over the period of her illness and treatment really got me questioning my faith at a fundamental level. Why was this happening to us and those other families? We weren't bad people. I'm not going to say I stopped believing or that I stopped praying for her recovery but I had major doubts. Thinking back and I suppose it seems selfish given all the misery in the world but at that present time I was only praying so she would get better(sort of blackmailing God!)
A few things brought me back. Firstly seeing how my Brother's faith and that of his family never wavered and helped them through this period. I've spoken to him a few times about it and he told me that his belief in a life after death, a place for his child to go, gave him the strength to carry on. And I suppose the second was probably due to my own upbringing and the importance my Parent's placed in religion. Although my faith was tested I still had an inner belief that I just had to tap into.
I'm sure my faith will be tested again, that's the nature of life I suppose?
Quote from: muppet on April 02, 2016, 05:23:07 PM
Where would an after life be, in the context of the known Universe, and how would we get there (speed, distance, time etc)?
Since its primarily of a spiritual nature (ie non-physical) why would you presume it lies within the known (ie physical) universe.
Always interested in the statement that 'faith gave me the strength to carry on'.
Two things - maybe you would have anyway but, secondly, it's a good reason to have it then - a form of psychology.
Also interested in our atheists' views of an afterlife. I was talking to a 70-year-old atheist soon after his wife died, a smart man, and he was the first I met who believed in some form of existence after we expire. Not in a spiritual sense - a matter of matter.
Quote from: ONeill on April 02, 2016, 10:42:49 PM
Always interested in the statement that 'faith gave me the strength to carry on'.
Two things - maybe you would have anyway but, secondly, it's a good reason to have it then - a form of psychology.
Also interested in our atheists' views of an afterlife. I was talking to a 70-year-old atheist soon after his wife died, a smart man, and he was the first I met who believed in some form of existence after we expire. Not in a spiritual sense - a matter of matter.
Just sounds like he believed in plain old science, the molecules we are made from will probably mostly hang around for a few centuries or millenia before breaking down, but then in turn the atoms that they are made from will hang around forever, well at least until they come into contact to some force that is strong enough to break them down too, which will likely be our sun burning up, so in that sense we have a while to go yet. But until that time the matter that we are made from will continue to form new things and new people, a form of reincarnation I suppose.
Nothing really new, unless he believed that consciousness was somehow attached to that, he wasnt really going outside the realm of physics.
We go back to the elements we came from. In fact the physical material you're made of now is completely different from the stuff you were made of seven years ago. This reminds me of an old FB post I wrote a while back, lemme resurrect it...
Here it is, sorry for the long post:
QuoteJust recently watched the end of David Tennant's tenure as the Doctor in Doctor Who. Seems to be that when a Timelord regenerates, he actually dies but is replaced by a new body and new mind that retains the memories of the old one, so he has a sensation of impending death if he knows he's about to regenerate.
I've often wondered about this in Star Trek. Every time someone steps onto the transporter, he is scanned, disassembled, each particle is converted to data, that data is beamed electromagnetically to another location, and a machine at the other end receives the data and reassembles the body. So does he die every time he steps onto the transporter pad only to be replaced by a copy at the other end? If so, would we ever know? The "thing" that is reassembled at the other end has all the memories of the old body, so it's not like anyone would be left to tell the tale of what it was like to die on the transporter pad. The only person with any sense of dying would no longer be around to tell the tale because that person is destroyed at the old location. "You" are destroyed on the transporter pad as you beam out, and "you" have no sense of a continued existence. The person being assembled at the other end is not "you," it's a carbon copy of you, but it happens to have your memories of everything that happened up to the point where you were transported, so who's going to know to raise the alarm that someone just died?
Or is it "you" that was destroyed?
Depends what we mean by "you". Are you the physical body or the memories?
How about the old "you are what you eat" axiom? The physical matter that makes up our bodies comes from the food that we eat and the water we drink. The physical material in your body is gradually replaced throughout the course of life, like the calcium in your bones that's being replaced at the same rate as it's destroyed, keeping it in balance and creating the illusion of a piece of solid material that stays unchanged throughout your life. The actual matter in your body today is completely different from the matter that your body consisted of seven years ago. But you're not a completely different person from the one you were seven years ago, are you? So what's the difference between having all the matter in your body replaced over a seven year period, and having all the matter in your body replaced in a split second at a different location?
After a bit of googling on this it seems like there's something called Theseus's paradox that deals with the same idea:
"The ship wherein Theseus and the youth of Athens returned from Crete had thirty oars, and was preserved by the Athenians down even to the time of Demetrius Phalereus, for they took away the old planks as they decayed, putting in new and stronger timber in their place, in so much that this ship became a standing example among the philosophers, for the logical question of things that grow; one side holding that the ship remained the same, and the other contending that it was not the same."
—Plutarch
Every component on the ship was replaced. Was it still the same ship?
It seems like even the ancient Greeks were pondering this stuff and they hadn't even seen Star Trek or Doctor Who or any other sci-fi show.
I've often wondered the same about some of the bikes I've had over the years. I've replaced wheels, handlebars, saddles, you name it. Then I swapped all the components onto a new frame (the Vitus frame that some of you have seen). Was this a new bike or just another slight modification of the old one?
The BBC's classic comedy show Only Fools and Horses once had a go at this paradox too. Trigger, not the sharpest tool in the box, talks about how he still has the same broom as appears in a 20 year-old photo even though it has had "17 new heads and 14 new handles" in all that time. Is it the same broom? He says it is but everybody else laughs at him. But does he have a point?
Frankly I think our material is all recycled. What I think is very cool is the fact that all the material we are made of was once inside a star. In the beginning the universe was all hydrogen. It took nuclear fusion inside stars to create the heavier elements, including the organic matter like carbon that we're based upon.
As for the non physical, we have a chance of living on in the form of memories of other people. Life is ultimately about relating to others and the effect we have on others. If our experiences and our ideas can continue to affect others after we're gone, surely that's as close to immortality as we're likely to get.
But the idea of a living conscious hereafter is a bit far fetched in my opinion, and I think it's a product of people's inability to comprehend what it's like to be dead, or unwillingness to face the fact of death. I also have my doubts about how seriously anyone really believes in the afterlife in the religious sense. If they did believe it then grief as we know it would not exist. If you truly believed that your loved one was just gone to another place and waiting for you to catch up, then bereavement wouldn't be the emotional trauma that it is. When people ask me where I think I go after death, I tell them I go back to the same place I was before I was born, i.e. nowhere. If there was a time in the past when I didn't exist, what's so unbelievable about a time in the future when I don't exist?
Thats interesting Eamon that we basically purge all material tho does it really include all bones and everything? Begs the question then how we get old?
But it inadvertently bumps into another question as regards consciousness. If all our cells-molecules-atoms are replaced why do we still feel like we are a continuation of the same person? Where is all the data in our brain held because if everything is replaced we should lose it?
The only feasible answer to these questions from a physics point of view is that consciousness is an illusion
Quote from: omaghjoe on April 02, 2016, 09:02:34 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 02, 2016, 05:23:07 PM
Where would an after life be, in the context of the known Universe, and how would we get there (speed, distance, time etc)?
Since its primarily of a spiritual nature (ie non-physical) why would you presume it lies within the known (ie physical) universe.
I would have thought that it is much more of a leap to presume it is something that no one has ever had any evidence of?
Quote from: ONeill on April 02, 2016, 10:42:49 PM
Always interested in the statement that 'faith gave me the strength to carry on'.
Two things - maybe you would have anyway but, secondly, it's a good reason to have it then - a form of psychology.
Also interested in our atheists' views of an afterlife. I was talking to a 70-year-old atheist soon after his wife died, a smart man, and he was the first I met who believed in some form of existence after we expire. Not in a spiritual sense - a matter of matter.
Faith is a placebo. Our brains are wired to follow leaders and their thought paradigms, most of which are shite. If you listen to a catholic mass an awful lot of it is BS. Do not consider what we truly deserve FFS. Religion is another sector completely unprepared for climate change.
Quote from: ONeill on April 02, 2016, 10:42:49 PM
Always interested in the statement that 'faith gave me the strength to carry on'.
Two things - maybe you would have anyway but, secondly, it's a good reason to have it then - a form of psychology.
Also interested in our atheists' views of an afterlife. I was talking to a 70-year-old atheist soon after his wife died, a smart man, and he was the first I met who believed in some form of existence after we expire. Not in a spiritual sense - a matter of matter.
I was asked by friends after the funeral of one of my parents (who died suddenly, and not at an advanced age) whether the whole experience had made me question my atheism.
It was actually something I'd wondered myself before that happened, but it turned out not to be a factor at all.
I am simply comfortable with the reality that this life is all we have. Make the most of it for that reason, do what you can for your family and friends, and you'll live on in their memory. No further "reward" necessary.
Afterlife, religion and so on is simply wishful thinking.
Quote from: muppet on April 03, 2016, 06:50:41 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on April 02, 2016, 09:02:34 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 02, 2016, 05:23:07 PM
Where would an after life be, in the context of the known Universe, and how would we get there (speed, distance, time etc)?
Since its primarily of a spiritual nature (ie non-physical) why would you presume it lies within the known (ie physical) universe.
I would have thought that it is much more of a leap to presume it is something that no one has ever had any evidence of?
There is no scientific evidence of the human spirit that's true but there is intuitive, instinctual and rational evidence of it.
Besides doesn't scientific evidence rely on our senses to interpret what's out there? Its a fair old leap to presume that what we are made up off can give us an accurate picture of whats out there.
In fact to hide the anomalies of that picture that it gives us we have to use reason and logic to come up with quantum physics to make sense of it, (and we still cant fully) which as it turns out is actually nothing like the picture we see thru our senses. But then if the picture we are getting in the first place is wrong in the first place its a false assumption to assume our understanding of that picture is right.
As I mentioned before science uses logical deduction to rationalise the world but its starting point uses induction, thereby throwing a question mark over whether or not it really is an accurate picture of the world
Quote from: omaghjoe on April 03, 2016, 09:52:06 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 03, 2016, 06:50:41 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on April 02, 2016, 09:02:34 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 02, 2016, 05:23:07 PM
Where would an after life be, in the context of the known Universe, and how would we get there (speed, distance, time etc)?
Since its primarily of a spiritual nature (ie non-physical) why would you presume it lies within the known (ie physical) universe.
I would have thought that it is much more of a leap to presume it is something that no one has ever had any evidence of?
There is no scientific evidence of the human spirit that's true but there is intuitive, instinctual and rational evidence of it.
Besides doesn't scientific evidence rely on our senses to interpret what's out there? Its a fair old leap to presume that what we are made up off can give us an accurate picture of whats out there.
In fact to hide the anomalies of that picture that it gives us we have to use reason and logic to come up with quantum physics to make sense of it, (and we still cant fully) which as it turns out is actually nothing like the picture we see thru our senses. But then if the picture we are getting in the first place is wrong in the first place its a false assumption to assume our understanding of that picture is right.
As I mentioned before science uses logical deduction to rationalise the world but its starting point uses induction, thereby throwing a question mark over whether or not it really is an accurate picture of the world
Can you give me an example of the rational evidence that put forward the case for an afterlife?
Quote from: muppet on April 03, 2016, 09:59:32 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on April 03, 2016, 09:52:06 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 03, 2016, 06:50:41 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on April 02, 2016, 09:02:34 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 02, 2016, 05:23:07 PM
Where would an after life be, in the context of the known Universe, and how would we get there (speed, distance, time etc)?
Since its primarily of a spiritual nature (ie non-physical) why would you presume it lies within the known (ie physical) universe.
I would have thought that it is much more of a leap to presume it is something that no one has ever had any evidence of?
There is no scientific evidence of the human spirit that's true but there is intuitive, instinctual and rational evidence of it.
Besides doesn't scientific evidence rely on our senses to interpret what's out there? Its a fair old leap to presume that what we are made up off can give us an accurate picture of whats out there.
In fact to hide the anomalies of that picture that it gives us we have to use reason and logic to come up with quantum physics to make sense of it, (and we still cant fully) which as it turns out is actually nothing like the picture we see thru our senses. But then if the picture we are getting in the first place is wrong in the first place its a false assumption to assume our understanding of that picture is right.
As I mentioned before science uses logical deduction to rationalise the world but its starting point uses induction, thereby throwing a question mark over whether or not it really is an accurate picture of the world
Can you give me an example of the rational evidence that put forward the case for an afterlife?
Well if you have an instinctual feeling that death is not the end, the next step in reasoning that feeling is an afterlife.
Quote from: seafoid on April 03, 2016, 07:27:30 PM
Quote from: ONeill on April 02, 2016, 10:42:49 PM
Always interested in the statement that 'faith gave me the strength to carry on'.
Two things - maybe you would have anyway but, secondly, it's a good reason to have it then - a form of psychology.
Also interested in our atheists' views of an afterlife. I was talking to a 70-year-old atheist soon after his wife died, a smart man, and he was the first I met who believed in some form of existence after we expire. Not in a spiritual sense - a matter of matter.
QuoteFaith is a placebo.
No faith is an intuitive feeling that we have a spiritual aspect
QuoteOur brains are wired to follow leaders and their thought paradigms, most of which are shite.
Huh? Wired to follow leaders? Is there specific neural pathways that we are born with or what?
Quote
If you listen to a catholic mass an awful lot of it is BS. Do not consider what we truly deserve FFS.
I listen most weeks and dont think that, I find it insightful and thought provoking
Quote
Religion is another sector completely unprepared for climate change.
:D I am all ears on this one, Im sure they are probably to blame for it too. ::) How many years does humanity have left now?
Quote from: omaghjoe on April 03, 2016, 05:04:18 PM
Thats interesting Eamon that we basically purge all material tho does it really include all bones and everything? Begs the question then how we get old?
Cells are good at replacing themselves, but they don't get so good at it as time wears on. Another little mis-firing is cancer. They say that more people are getting cancer because of longer lifespans, the longer the live the more likely you are to get tumors.
Quote
But it inadvertently bumps into another question as regards consciousness. If all our cells-molecules-atoms are replaced why do we still feel like we are a continuation of the same person? Where is all the data in our brain held because if everything is replaced we should lose it?
Neurons in your brain, where all the memories are kept, are just cells and they get replaced like any other.
Quote
The only feasible answer to these questions from a physics point of view is that consciousness is an illusion
Yes. A very cool illusion though.
Quote
QuoteOur brains are wired to follow leaders and their thought paradigms, most of which are shite.
Huh? Wired to follow leaders? Is there specific neural pathways that we are born with or what?
Yes. Certain basic instincts are "hard wired." They exist in the core of the brain, the bit near the stem, the "lizard brain" as Carl Sagan called it, I can't remember its proper name. It's the part we inherited from when we were a more primitive animal, it's where all the survival instincts come from. Your instinct to care more for people in your immediate family group (a survival strategy for genes), your instinct for cooperation with others, fear of darkness in unfamiliar locations, the fight-or-flight instinct for when you get into a bit of trouble, etc.. Social hierarchy is all handled by that part.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on April 04, 2016, 04:26:23 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on April 03, 2016, 05:04:18 PM
Thats interesting Eamon that we basically purge all material tho does it really include all bones and everything? Begs the question then how we get old?
Cells are good at replacing themselves, but they don't get so good at it as time wears on. Another little mis-firing is cancer. They say that more people are getting cancer because of longer lifespans, the longer the live the more likely you are to get tumors.
Quote
But it inadvertently bumps into another question as regards consciousness. If all our cells-molecules-atoms are replaced why do we still feel like we are a continuation of the same person? Where is all the data in our brain held because if everything is replaced we should lose it?
Neurons in your brain, where all the memories are kept, are just cells and they get replaced like any other.
Quote
The only feasible answer to these questions from a physics point of view is that consciousness is an illusion
Yes. A very cool illusion though.
So the memories are keep in neurons, sort of like in a hard drive in a computer?
Firstly there is no evidence that the actual memory experience is in the neuron only that the firing of neuron makes us experience the memory.
Secondly when we make a decision to access them what causes the neurons to fire exactly?
Thirdly when we access these neurons where are they projected onto so that we experience them?
But prehaps you already answered that last question if you believe that consciousness is only an illusion. I've a few other queries... do you believe that you really think, in the true sense of the word?
Or that you are just a sort of complex organism without proper consciousness again in the true sense of the word, who makes decisions based on both natural prewiring and from sensory experiences from the world around you?
Quote from: omaghjoe on April 03, 2016, 10:12:18 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 03, 2016, 09:59:32 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on April 03, 2016, 09:52:06 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 03, 2016, 06:50:41 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on April 02, 2016, 09:02:34 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 02, 2016, 05:23:07 PM
Where would an after life be, in the context of the known Universe, and how would we get there (speed, distance, time etc)?
Since its primarily of a spiritual nature (ie non-physical) why would you presume it lies within the known (ie physical) universe.
I would have thought that it is much more of a leap to presume it is something that no one has ever had any evidence of?
There is no scientific evidence of the human spirit that's true but there is intuitive, instinctual and rational evidence of it.
Besides doesn't scientific evidence rely on our senses to interpret what's out there? Its a fair old leap to presume that what we are made up off can give us an accurate picture of whats out there.
In fact to hide the anomalies of that picture that it gives us we have to use reason and logic to come up with quantum physics to make sense of it, (and we still cant fully) which as it turns out is actually nothing like the picture we see thru our senses. But then if the picture we are getting in the first place is wrong in the first place its a false assumption to assume our understanding of that picture is right.
As I mentioned before science uses logical deduction to rationalise the world but its starting point uses induction, thereby throwing a question mark over whether or not it really is an accurate picture of the world
Can you give me an example of the rational evidence that put forward the case for an afterlife?
Well if you have an instinctual feeling that death is not the end, the next step in reasoning that feeling is an afterlife.
That is the evidence?
Quote from: muppet on April 05, 2016, 09:25:48 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on April 03, 2016, 10:12:18 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 03, 2016, 09:59:32 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on April 03, 2016, 09:52:06 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 03, 2016, 06:50:41 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on April 02, 2016, 09:02:34 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 02, 2016, 05:23:07 PM
Where would an after life be, in the context of the known Universe, and how would we get there (speed, distance, time etc)?
Since its primarily of a spiritual nature (ie non-physical) why would you presume it lies within the known (ie physical) universe.
I would have thought that it is much more of a leap to presume it is something that no one has ever had any evidence of?
There is no scientific evidence of the human spirit that's true but there is intuitive, instinctual and rational evidence of it.
Besides doesn't scientific evidence rely on our senses to interpret what's out there? Its a fair old leap to presume that what we are made up off can give us an accurate picture of whats out there.
In fact to hide the anomalies of that picture that it gives us we have to use reason and logic to come up with quantum physics to make sense of it, (and we still cant fully) which as it turns out is actually nothing like the picture we see thru our senses. But then if the picture we are getting in the first place is wrong in the first place its a false assumption to assume our understanding of that picture is right.
As I mentioned before science uses logical deduction to rationalise the world but its starting point uses induction, thereby throwing a question mark over whether or not it really is an accurate picture of the world
Can you give me an example of the rational evidence that put forward the case for an afterlife?
Well if you have an instinctual feeling that death is not the end, the next step in reasoning that feeling is an afterlife.
That is the evidence?
Yes, where you expecting empirical evidence? The evidence requires faith as a starting point.
Quote from: omaghjoe on April 05, 2016, 10:05:29 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 05, 2016, 09:25:48 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on April 03, 2016, 10:12:18 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 03, 2016, 09:59:32 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on April 03, 2016, 09:52:06 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 03, 2016, 06:50:41 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on April 02, 2016, 09:02:34 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 02, 2016, 05:23:07 PM
Where would an after life be, in the context of the known Universe, and how would we get there (speed, distance, time etc)?
Since its primarily of a spiritual nature (ie non-physical) why would you presume it lies within the known (ie physical) universe.
I would have thought that it is much more of a leap to presume it is something that no one has ever had any evidence of?
There is no scientific evidence of the human spirit that's true but there is intuitive, instinctual and rational evidence of it.
Besides doesn't scientific evidence rely on our senses to interpret what's out there? Its a fair old leap to presume that what we are made up off can give us an accurate picture of whats out there.
In fact to hide the anomalies of that picture that it gives us we have to use reason and logic to come up with quantum physics to make sense of it, (and we still cant fully) which as it turns out is actually nothing like the picture we see thru our senses. But then if the picture we are getting in the first place is wrong in the first place its a false assumption to assume our understanding of that picture is right.
As I mentioned before science uses logical deduction to rationalise the world but its starting point uses induction, thereby throwing a question mark over whether or not it really is an accurate picture of the world
Can you give me an example of the rational evidence that put forward the case for an afterlife?
Well if you have an instinctual feeling that death is not the end, the next step in reasoning that feeling is an afterlife.
That is the evidence?
Yes, where you expecting empirical evidence? The evidence requires faith as a starting point.
I have faith that Olivia Wilde would love me if she only knew me. This is not evidence. It is fantasy.
Quote from: muppet on April 05, 2016, 10:11:07 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on April 05, 2016, 10:05:29 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 05, 2016, 09:25:48 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on April 03, 2016, 10:12:18 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 03, 2016, 09:59:32 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on April 03, 2016, 09:52:06 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 03, 2016, 06:50:41 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on April 02, 2016, 09:02:34 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 02, 2016, 05:23:07 PM
Where would an after life be, in the context of the known Universe, and how would we get there (speed, distance, time etc)?
Since its primarily of a spiritual nature (ie non-physical) why would you presume it lies within the known (ie physical) universe.
I would have thought that it is much more of a leap to presume it is something that no one has ever had any evidence of?
There is no scientific evidence of the human spirit that's true but there is intuitive, instinctual and rational evidence of it.
Besides doesn't scientific evidence rely on our senses to interpret what's out there? Its a fair old leap to presume that what we are made up off can give us an accurate picture of whats out there.
In fact to hide the anomalies of that picture that it gives us we have to use reason and logic to come up with quantum physics to make sense of it, (and we still cant fully) which as it turns out is actually nothing like the picture we see thru our senses. But then if the picture we are getting in the first place is wrong in the first place its a false assumption to assume our understanding of that picture is right.
As I mentioned before science uses logical deduction to rationalise the world but its starting point uses induction, thereby throwing a question mark over whether or not it really is an accurate picture of the world
Can you give me an example of the rational evidence that put forward the case for an afterlife?
Well if you have an instinctual feeling that death is not the end, the next step in reasoning that feeling is an afterlife.
That is the evidence?
Yes, where you expecting empirical evidence? The evidence requires faith as a starting point.
I have faith that Olivia Wilde would love me if she only knew me. This is not evidence. It is fantasy.
Im sure you could try and keep the discussion relevant. But if you wish to continue with the analogy then.... there is a possibility that she would love you (whoever she is) if she did meet you, and in fact that possibility is made all the more likely to be possible by the strength of your faith that she would.
At the end of the day all evidence (including scientific) is ultimately mental and nothing is assured without some sort or faith or presumptions as a starting point.
Heaven is not knowing that you are dead.
Quote from: DownFanatic on April 05, 2016, 11:46:20 PM
Heaven is not knowing that you are dead.
For a huge percentage of the population being raped and abused daily, having no food, being sold into slavery, watching their families get killed, having no home, no future, no prospects except daily pain and suffering, heaven would be being dead. One has to ask if this God chap can create a utopia on a spiritual level, why does he or she or it allow so many millions to suffer on a physical level who's only crime was to be born?
Quote from: No wides on April 06, 2016, 09:31:28 AM
Quote from: DownFanatic on April 05, 2016, 11:46:20 PM
Heaven is not knowing that you are dead.
For a huge percentage of the population being raped and abused daily, having no food, being sold into slavery, watching their families get killed, having no home, no future, no prospects except daily pain and suffering, heaven would be being dead. One has to ask if this God chap can create a utopia on a spiritual level, why does he or she or it allow so many millions to suffer on a physical level who's only crime was to be born?
remind me not to go for a pint with you. ;D
More a carlsberg man. ;)
Quote from: ONeill on March 31, 2016, 10:35:19 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on March 31, 2016, 10:32:20 PM
No other story has claimed so many followers over 2000 years on,all the same
2000 years was a decent innings. 200'000 years of humans on the planet. 2000 is good.
sure the earth is only 6000 years old.
Quote from: moysider on April 01, 2016, 12:18:20 AM
' Once you're gone,
you don't come back;
when you're out of the blue,
you're into the black'.
Neil Younggggggggg!!!!!!!!
"Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Heres Tom with the Weather."
― Bill Hicks