Eighth Amendment poll

[gallsman]

The thing is, it's their church too. Priests and other clergy don't own the "club", they are simply the caretakers/managers of it. Ones who are imposed on the members rather than chosen

[johnnycool]

The de-catholicisation of Ireland by itself has been such an incredible positive for society over the last twenty years. This country has modernised itself at an incredible rate.

Don't answer this if you don't want to syferus as I understand it's quite a personal question did you/ would you get married in a Catholic Church, will you have your funeral in a Catholic Church?

I couldn't give a shít either way. It's not entirely my decision either so asking me the question is a bit facetious.

The only time I go near a church is if someone has died or it's Christmas for family reasons. I know very few people my age who have any engagement with the church.

Having a catholic funeral is 100% your decision. I'll give you the marriage one as it is a decision for both.

You kind of made my point for me by saying yoj go at Christmas for family reasons. We have a massive culture in this country of running the CC down and mocking the church and those belonging to it m yet when it comes to funerals, weddings (and Christmas) was use the church for our own gain.

I only go for my parents' sake. I'm utterly bored to tears and wouldn't go otherwise. I'm not using the church in any manner whatsoever besides sitting on a wooden bench in a chilly hall for 40 minutes. I don't think the Catholic Church has any monopoly on dignified funerals either. Once a certain generation die off were likely to see many more secular funerals.

Didn't say they'd a monopoly on dignified funerals, but there are plenty of places you can have a funeral which are non religious. Same as with weddings.

I understand fully your reason for going at Christmas. Personally, I prob am one of those hypocrites people talk about. I 100% class myself as a Catholic, I don't attend mass as often as I should, I have had a child out of wedlock. But you know, I still believe in the catholic teachings, I still pray to god I still feel that as a religion it is what I identify most with, I do t believe in every teaching and I fax I've had many discussions/ arguments with priests with regard to how the church has to interpret and include the modern era. I do know quite a lot of priests who are forward thinking and have their own views which they tend to keep to themselves, like any massive worldwide organisation there are going to be people with different views.
I completely understand people's choice to leave the Catholic Church as is their right I just did that when they need something for example a wedding or a funeral they expect the church to facilitate it no matter how out of sync they are

Nothing wrong with being à la carte in your religious outlook. Most of those filling the pews are just the same, ditto the pro life lad in Newry who the priest is playing hard ball with.

[Franko]

Euthanasia a whole separate issue, should be separate thread.
Meanwhile Fr Patrick McCafferty says he'll protest outside abortion clinics and giving out at Yes voters who get married in a church while Newry priest Damien Quigley warned a couple that advocating Yes vote could mean their wedding not taking place in a Catholic Church. These celibates in dresses still think they hold some moral authority after the church scandals still emerging. 

The amusing thing is that these dinosaurs still don't get it. You had the bishop during the week telling Catholics who voted 'Yes' to go to confession - completely oblivious to the message that the fear and threat approach is as dead as John Cleese's parrot and failing to notice that that is the reason so many of his 'flock' voted as they did.

Now you have this idiot priest trying the same approach and not noticing the expired parrot status of the clericalism that kept the feet of likes of him on the throats of the people for centuries.

I think they're waiting to be told to get out of our lives, failing to understand that they're no longer in our lives, nor even in the lives of the believers they purport to lead. As far as I can see, believing Catholics are listening to their consciences these days and not to these reactionary apologists for centuries of intimidation, abuse, contempt, loathing and simple disrespect of their fellow human beings.

It is still their club and if you want in you play by their rules.
If you don't believe in the Church don't go to it for a church wedding. There are plenty of places will do civil ceremonies.

My whole point is that it's no longer their club or their rules. It's the people's club and the people are making the rules. The church building is only the clubhouse. These lads are just the caretakers and keyholders. They're no longer in a position to tell the club members when they can and can't come and go. If they lock the club and keep the keys what have they achieved?

It is still their club and they still make the rules.  The problem for them is that the club is getting short on paying members.

Right on both counts Franko.
If you don't like the rules join another club.
By the way the C of I were advocating a NO vote.
I didn't see any comment from them but I expect Presbyterian and Methodist Churches would be likely Nos too.

It's not their club when the majority of the members don't obey their rules and have devised a new, more relevant, useful and human set of rules by which they abide. Leaving aside the matter of who owns/runs the club, the point is that the clericalist behaviour is a like a scene of once all-powerful tyrants ranting at the telly, not understanding that they can't be heard.

Agree with your last sentence but you can't just argue that we forget about who owns and runs the club, in a discussion about who owns and runs a club.

The fact that most of the members choose not to obey the rules is secondary.  They are still the rules and the 'all-powerful tyrants' decide if/when to enforce them.

Unfortunately for the church hierarchy, the more rigidly they tend to do this, the more club members they tend to lose and this is the dilemma for them.  And again unfortunately for them, due to the absolutist and apparently infallible nature of the rules, they lose all credibility if they now try to relax them.

[The Iceman]

cultural catholicism is dying and I don't think it's a bad thing. the church isn't going to change for the "people" the people will just leave and what's left will hopefully be stronger....around the world young people are coming back to the church seeking what you call rigidity.  Latin prayers are popular again in catholic communities there is a move back towards the old ways and young people are embracing it.....

in your quest to "move on" in Ireland and remove the Church from all aspects of public life you lose in the end....

what i dont understand is the aggressiveness...why the S club of posters who are just angry all the time about anything to do with catholicism....its all very sad

abandoning the most vulnerable, abandoning the old (how merciful of you).....all in the name of "progress".  Wait and see what becomes of the island. Wait and see what your children will do for you when you're older because they learned that nothing matters and life is pointless....well done

[Syferus]

cultural catholicism is dying and I don't think it's a bad thing. the church isn't going to change for the "people" the people will just leave and what's left will hopefully be stronger....around the world young people are coming back to the church seeking what you call rigidity. Latin prayers are popular again in catholic communities there is a move back towards the old ways and young people are embracing it.....

in your quest to "move on" in Ireland and remove the Church from all aspects of public life you lose in the end....

what i dont understand is the aggressiveness...why the S club of posters who are just angry all the time about anything to do with catholicism....its all very sad

abandoning the most vulnerable, abandoning the old (how merciful of you).....all in the name of "progress".  Wait and see what becomes of the island. Wait and see what your children will do for you when you're older because they learned that nothing matters and life is pointless....well done

No they are not.

Unless you mean third world countries, and in which case it's of absolutely no relevance to this discussion.

[The Iceman]

really? go to world youth day, attend a Eucharistic conference, come to my parish and you'll see for yourself.... travel around the world, attend Mass and then argue with me

[Itchy]

Euthanasia a whole separate issue, should be separate thread.
Meanwhile Fr Patrick McCafferty says he'll protest outside abortion clinics and giving out at Yes voters who get married in a church while Newry priest Damien Quigley warned a couple that advocating Yes vote could mean their wedding not taking place in a Catholic Church. These celibates in dresses still think they hold some moral authority after the church scandals still emerging. 

The amusing thing is that these dinosaurs still don't get it. You had the bishop during the week telling Catholics who voted 'Yes' to go to confession - completely oblivious to the message that the fear and threat approach is as dead as John Cleese's parrot and failing to notice that that is the reason so many of his 'flock' voted as they did.

Now you have this idiot priest trying the same approach and not noticing the expired parrot status of the clericalism that kept the feet of likes of him on the throats of the people for centuries.

I think they're waiting to be told to get out of our lives, failing to understand that they're no longer in our lives, nor even in the lives of the believers they purport to lead. As far as I can see, believing Catholics are listening to their consciences these days and not to these reactionary apologists for centuries of intimidation, abuse, contempt, loathing and simple disrespect of their fellow human beings.

It is still their club and if you want in you play by their rules.
If you don't believe in the Church don't go to it for a church wedding. There are plenty of places will do civil ceremonies.

Exactly. What this has done is drawn the teachings of this little club out into the open for all to see its stupidity clearly. If you still want to belong to this club then maybe you should take a look at yourself in the mirror.

[gallsman]

what i dont understand is the aggressiveness...why the S club of posters who are just angry all the time about anything to do with catholicism....its all very sad

While I can't speak for everyone, for me it's definitely the never-ceasing emergence of stories of abuse and rape, especially of kids, by authority figures within the Church and subsequent cover ups that irks me the most. Then you the have the defenders of the church who try the "few bad apples" line all the time. Not really happy abouy that either.

really? go to world youth day, attend a Eucharistic conference, come to my parish and you'll see for yourself.... travel around the world, attend Mass and then argue with me

In what way does that prove your point? I go to Bruce Springsteen concerts a lot and they're always well attended. Doesn't mean his fanbase is growing.

[Syferus]

really? go to world youth day, attend a Eucharistic conference, come to my parish and you'll see for yourself.... travel around the world, attend Mass and then argue with me

Yeah, no thanks. I'd rather look at every know statistic that shows precipitous drops in church attendance and identification overall, particularly in young people, over the anecdotal evidence of a conference.

Your church is dying, mate, and I'm absolutely delighted about it.

[grounded]

The de-catholicisation of Ireland by itself has been such an incredible positive for society over the last twenty years. This country has modernised itself at an incredible rate.

Don't answer this if you don't want to syferus as I understand it's quite a personal question did you/ would you get married in a Catholic Church, will you have your funeral in a Catholic Church?

I couldn't give a shít either way. It's not entirely my decision either so asking me the question is a bit facetious.

The only time I go near a church is if someone has died or it's Christmas for family reasons. I know very few people my age who have any engagement with the church.

Having a catholic funeral is 100% your decision. I'll give you the marriage one as it is a decision for both.

You kind of made my point for me by saying yoj go at Christmas for family reasons. We have a massive culture in this country of running the CC down and mocking the church and those belonging to it m yet when it comes to funerals, weddings (and Christmas) was use the church for our own gain.

I only go for my parents' sake. I'm utterly bored to tears and wouldn't go otherwise. I'm not using the church in any manner whatsoever besides sitting on a wooden bench in a chilly hall for 40 minutes. I don't think the Catholic Church has any monopoly on dignified funerals either. Once a certain generation die off were likely to see many more secular funerals.

Didn't say they'd a monopoly on dignified funerals, but there are plenty of places you can have a funeral which are non religious. Same as with weddings.

I understand fully your reason for going at Christmas. Personally, I prob am one of those hypocrites people talk about. I 100% class myself as a Catholic, I don't attend mass as often as I should, I have had a child out of wedlock. But you know, I still believe in the catholic teachings, I still pray to god I still feel that as a religion it is what I identify most with, I do t believe in every teaching and I fax I've had many discussions/ arguments with priests with regard to how the church has to interpret and include the modern era. I do know quite a lot of priests who are forward thinking and have their own views which they tend to keep to themselves, like any massive worldwide organisation there are going to be people with different views.
I completely understand people's choice to leave the Catholic Church as is their right I just did that when they need something for example a wedding or a funeral they expect the church to facilitate it no matter how out of sync they are

You'll not get too many on here admitting it, but we are all hypocrites to a greater or lesser extent. I've similar views about the church as you have. I suppose the question for the church is do they close the door on those members of the congregation(who they fundamentally disagree with) or do they try and remain as open as possible and keep these people in the fold.
      Mary mcAleese being a good example.

[The Iceman]

really? go to world youth day, attend a Eucharistic conference, come to my parish and you'll see for yourself.... travel around the world, attend Mass and then argue with me

Yeah, no thanks. I'd rather look at every know statistic that shows precipitous drops in church attendance and identification overall, particularly in young people, over the anecdotal evidence of a conference.

Your church is dying, mate, and I'm absolutely delighted about it.

you'll get to read that again at the end, buddy

[Syferus]

really? go to world youth day, attend a Eucharistic conference, come to my parish and you'll see for yourself.... travel around the world, attend Mass and then argue with me

Yeah, no thanks. I'd rather look at every know statistic that shows precipitous drops in church attendance and identification overall, particularly in young people, over the anecdotal evidence of a conference.

Your church is dying, mate, and I'm absolutely delighted about it.

you'll get to read that again at the end, buddy

The fûck?

[johnnycool]

The de-catholicisation of Ireland by itself has been such an incredible positive for society over the last twenty years. This country has modernised itself at an incredible rate.

Don't answer this if you don't want to syferus as I understand it's quite a personal question did you/ would you get married in a Catholic Church, will you have your funeral in a Catholic Church?

I couldn't give a shít either way. It's not entirely my decision either so asking me the question is a bit facetious.

The only time I go near a church is if someone has died or it's Christmas for family reasons. I know very few people my age who have any engagement with the church.

Having a catholic funeral is 100% your decision. I'll give you the marriage one as it is a decision for both.

You kind of made my point for me by saying yoj go at Christmas for family reasons. We have a massive culture in this country of running the CC down and mocking the church and those belonging to it m yet when it comes to funerals, weddings (and Christmas) was use the church for our own gain.

I only go for my parents' sake. I'm utterly bored to tears and wouldn't go otherwise. I'm not using the church in any manner whatsoever besides sitting on a wooden bench in a chilly hall for 40 minutes. I don't think the Catholic Church has any monopoly on dignified funerals either. Once a certain generation die off were likely to see many more secular funerals.

Didn't say they'd a monopoly on dignified funerals, but there are plenty of places you can have a funeral which are non religious. Same as with weddings.

I understand fully your reason for going at Christmas. Personally, I prob am one of those hypocrites people talk about. I 100% class myself as a Catholic, I don't attend mass as often as I should, I have had a child out of wedlock. But you know, I still believe in the catholic teachings, I still pray to god I still feel that as a religion it is what I identify most with, I do t believe in every teaching and I fax I've had many discussions/ arguments with priests with regard to how the church has to interpret and include the modern era. I do know quite a lot of priests who are forward thinking and have their own views which they tend to keep to themselves, like any massive worldwide organisation there are going to be people with different views.
I completely understand people's choice to leave the Catholic Church as is their right I just did that when they need something for example a wedding or a funeral they expect the church to facilitate it no matter how out of sync they are

You'll not get too many on here admitting it, but we are all hypocrites to a greater or lesser extent. I've similar views about the church as you have. I suppose the question for the church is do they close the door on those members of the congregation(who they fundamentally disagree with) or do they try and remain as open as possible and keep these people in the fold.
      Mary mcAleese being a good example.

Luke 15:11-32

[Syferus]

The de-catholicisation of Ireland by itself has been such an incredible positive for society over the last twenty years. This country has modernised itself at an incredible rate.

Don't answer this if you don't want to syferus as I understand it's quite a personal question did you/ would you get married in a Catholic Church, will you have your funeral in a Catholic Church?

I couldn't give a shít either way. It's not entirely my decision either so asking me the question is a bit facetious.

The only time I go near a church is if someone has died or it's Christmas for family reasons. I know very few people my age who have any engagement with the church.

Having a catholic funeral is 100% your decision. I'll give you the marriage one as it is a decision for both.

You kind of made my point for me by saying yoj go at Christmas for family reasons. We have a massive culture in this country of running the CC down and mocking the church and those belonging to it m yet when it comes to funerals, weddings (and Christmas) was use the church for our own gain.

I only go for my parents' sake. I'm utterly bored to tears and wouldn't go otherwise. I'm not using the church in any manner whatsoever besides sitting on a wooden bench in a chilly hall for 40 minutes. I don't think the Catholic Church has any monopoly on dignified funerals either. Once a certain generation die off were likely to see many more secular funerals.

Didn't say they'd a monopoly on dignified funerals, but there are plenty of places you can have a funeral which are non religious. Same as with weddings.

I understand fully your reason for going at Christmas. Personally, I prob am one of those hypocrites people talk about. I 100% class myself as a Catholic, I don't attend mass as often as I should, I have had a child out of wedlock. But you know, I still believe in the catholic teachings, I still pray to god I still feel that as a religion it is what I identify most with, I do t believe in every teaching and I fax I've had many discussions/ arguments with priests with regard to how the church has to interpret and include the modern era. I do know quite a lot of priests who are forward thinking and have their own views which they tend to keep to themselves, like any massive worldwide organisation there are going to be people with different views.
I completely understand people's choice to leave the Catholic Church as is their right I just did that when they need something for example a wedding or a funeral they expect the church to facilitate it no matter how out of sync they are

You'll not get too many on here admitting it, but we are all hypocrites to a greater or lesser extent. I've similar views about the church as you have. I suppose the question for the church is do they close the door on those members of the congregation(who they fundamentally disagree with) or do they try and remain as open as possible and keep these people in the fold.
      Mary mcAleese being a good example.

The question is maybe look at modernising your fecking doctrine if everyone has decided it's rotten.

Why can't women be clergy? Is it the tits or the vagina that's the issue?

[Itchy]

The de-catholicisation of Ireland by itself has been such an incredible positive for society over the last twenty years. This country has modernised itself at an incredible rate.

Don't answer this if you don't want to syferus as I understand it's quite a personal question did you/ would you get married in a Catholic Church, will you have your funeral in a Catholic Church?

I couldn't give a shít either way. It's not entirely my decision either so asking me the question is a bit facetious.

The only time I go near a church is if someone has died or it's Christmas for family reasons. I know very few people my age who have any engagement with the church.

Having a catholic funeral is 100% your decision. I'll give you the marriage one as it is a decision for both.

You kind of made my point for me by saying yoj go at Christmas for family reasons. We have a massive culture in this country of running the CC down and mocking the church and those belonging to it m yet when it comes to funerals, weddings (and Christmas) was use the church for our own gain.

I only go for my parents' sake. I'm utterly bored to tears and wouldn't go otherwise. I'm not using the church in any manner whatsoever besides sitting on a wooden bench in a chilly hall for 40 minutes. I don't think the Catholic Church has any monopoly on dignified funerals either. Once a certain generation die off were likely to see many more secular funerals.

What? A man of great principle like you. What will happen to your parents if you don't go - will they explode or something? I know Roscommon is a bit backward but surely a grown man can decide if he is going to church or not?