Did the South fail Northern catholics ?

Started by seafoid, January 17, 2022, 07:20:43 PM

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Snapchap

Quote from: seafoid on January 17, 2022, 07:20:43 PM
https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2022/0111/1273078-did-ireland-really-fail-northern-catholics-during-the-troubles/

Even the title of that article is ironic. Apparently northern Catholics are separate from "Ireland"  ::)

Anyway, the line often thrown back at northern nationalists who complain about the south turning a blind eye is "what did you expect us to do, invade?" This letter from Danny Morrison to the Irish Times, is a blistering response to that question:


general_lee

Nail on the head from Danny Morrison. Department of Foreign Affairs!

seafoid

The Shinner narrative is very alluring but I think it it ignores 2 key facts :

1. In 1922 the UK was the dominant global economic power and sterling was the global currency. The South had SFA leverage
2. NI has some form of group trauma and any UI will need to planned over a number of decades if it is to fly.  There is no way it will happen in the short term.
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

Snapchap

Quote from: seafoid on January 18, 2022, 10:49:12 AM
The Shinner narrative is very alluring but I think it it ignores 2 key facts :

1. In 1922 the UK was the dominant global economic power and sterling was the global currency. The South had SFA leverage
2. NI has some form of group trauma and any UI will need to planned over a number of decades if it is to fly.  There is no way it will happen in the short term.

So the north was lumped into the category of "foreign affairs" by successive southern governments because of the strength of the pound?

johnnycool

Quote from: seafoid on January 18, 2022, 10:49:12 AM
The Shinner narrative is very alluring but I think it it ignores 2 key facts :

1. In 1922 the UK was the dominant global economic power and sterling was the global currency. The South had SFA leverage
2. NI has some form of group trauma and any UI will need to planned over a number of decades if it is to fly.  There is no way it will happen in the short term.

Point 1. In 1922 the Dail was indeed still looking over it's shoulder to make sure it didn't offend those in London but in 1968 on they never seemed to leverage the awakened Irish American support in the US they could have had if they'd been more confrontational with the Brits over what was happening here, Jack Lynch, great hurler, poor statesman.

Point 2. Not sure what to make of that group trauma statement TBH, utter písh is my first instinctive response then with a little more thinking it's probably a little unsurprising that especially within the nationalist community there is possibly such a thing. Considering that we considered those in the 26 to be our friends, allies, the one and the same as us only to be let down time and time again and heck even demonised as being the instigators of our own problems by parts of the Irish Gov and ruling elites then it's probably understandable.
As for the decades statement, that's kicking the very much live and now can down the road, when the will for a UI hits the 50+1 mark, it'll be a tsunami rather than a slow progress like you think it might be. Think of German unification.

Better to have a plan in place now rather than off the hoof.

Franko

Quote from: seafoid on January 18, 2022, 10:49:12 AM
The Shinner narrative is very alluring but I think it it ignores 2 key facts :

1. In 1922 the UK was the dominant global economic power and sterling was the global currency. The South had SFA leverage
2. NI has some form of group trauma and any UI will need to planned over a number of decades if it is to fly.  There is no way it will happen in the short term.

Telling response.  Morrison's letter mentions events in the 1960's, 1970 and 1984.

As the first point of your rebuttal to defend the actions of the government, you conveniently choose the political situation in 1922.

rrhf

A border poll will illustrate support for a united nation in Ireland. I suspect that there will be no second thoughts amongst many supposedly on the fence. There is nothing owed to anyone by those who will choose or vote for it.  It just the natural democratic fix to a very undemocratic and enforced problem, which turned rotten, as any sectarian statelet will.  A united Island with a liberal outlook on the world will have a fine future for all....

Mikhail Prokhorov


'the south' is not a term used by Irish people  ;)

seafoid

Quote from: Franko on January 18, 2022, 02:21:17 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 18, 2022, 10:49:12 AM
The Shinner narrative is very alluring but I think it it ignores 2 key facts :

1. In 1922 the UK was the dominant global economic power and sterling was the global currency. The South had SFA leverage
2. NI has some form of group trauma and any UI will need to planned over a number of decades if it is to fly.  There is no way it will happen in the short term.

Telling response.  Morrison's letter mentions events in the 1960's, 1970 and 1984.

As the first point of your rebuttal to defend the actions of the government, you conveniently choose the political situation in 1922.
Morrison is an ideologues. NI in 1984 was the most violent region in Western Europe. I remember the first ceasefire. People in Dublin couldn't believe it. We were so used to the nihilism on the news.

I think the Shinners need to do outreach work to all the people in the Republic who think NI is a different country.
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

weareros

The South definitely left Nationalists behind in the lack of spine when fellow Irish men and women were under siege. Even up to modern times, the lack of intervention when the British gave a state funeral to a soldier who shot a young man with special needs John Pat Cunningham in the back, while Unionists were getting selfies with the murderer. Multiply stuff like that by any number you want and that was and continues to be shameful.

Southern establishment did do a good job with Brexit by using their influence in EU to stick it to Tory's.  But that was late in the game after everything that went before. And even with that, I'm not sure people in South were invested in the implications of Brexit for nationalist community. Most may not even understand how it would have cut nationalists off further.

The one good thing was Irish passports and perhaps all-island state funding for sports like Olympics. Some think this happened with GFA but everyone  born in North was always entitled to an Irish passport. Small consolidation I know when faced with state murdering machine, state collusion with Loyalists, job discrimination, etc.

Perhaps the last good thing is I do feel the economy has been integrated in a deep way with all-island electricity grid, tourism, agri-food, now essentially keeping North in same customs Union with Protocol so that unity will bring less infrastructural challenges. That work often goes unnoticed. But it's leading to a less painful economic  unity which i expect in the next decade.

imtommygunn

I was glad to hear recently that the south requested Kate Hoey wouldn't become the secretary of state when labour were in power because we all know listening to her recently that would have been  disaster.

HiMucker


Snapchap

Quote from: seafoid on January 18, 2022, 03:13:00 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 18, 2022, 02:21:17 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 18, 2022, 10:49:12 AM
The Shinner narrative is very alluring but I think it it ignores 2 key facts :

1. In 1922 the UK was the dominant global economic power and sterling was the global currency. The South had SFA leverage
2. NI has some form of group trauma and any UI will need to planned over a number of decades if it is to fly.  There is no way it will happen in the short term.

Telling response.  Morrison's letter mentions events in the 1960's, 1970 and 1984.

As the first point of your rebuttal to defend the actions of the government, you conveniently choose the political situation in 1922.
Morrison is an ideologues. NI in 1984 was the most violent region in Western Europe. I remember the first ceasefire. People in Dublin couldn't believe it. We were so used to the nihilism on the news.

I think the Shinners need to do outreach work to all the people in the Republic who think NI is a different country.

What a weasle response. How about instead of just ignoring Danny Morrison's points, you might offer a counter argument to them, rather than just ignoring his points and posting a four word personal attack on him?

It is very ironic that someone (Danny Morrison) putting forward a detailed and eloquent summary of why nationalists in the north feel historically ignored by the south, has a poster from the south trying to claim he is wrong by...simply ignoring every single point Morrison made.

Snapchap

Quote from: Snapchap on January 18, 2022, 11:23:52 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 18, 2022, 10:49:12 AM
The Shinner narrative is very alluring but I think it it ignores 2 key facts :

1. In 1922 the UK was the dominant global economic power and sterling was the global currency. The South had SFA leverage
2. NI has some form of group trauma and any UI will need to planned over a number of decades if it is to fly.  There is no way it will happen in the short term.

So the north was lumped into the category of "foreign affairs" by successive southern governments because of the strength of the pound?

Well?

armaghniac

Quote from: Snapchap on January 18, 2022, 11:23:52 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 18, 2022, 10:49:12 AM
The Shinner narrative is very alluring but I think it it ignores 2 key facts :

1. In 1922 the UK was the dominant global economic power and sterling was the global currency. The South had SFA leverage
2. NI has some form of group trauma and any UI will need to planned over a number of decades if it is to fly.  There is no way it will happen in the short term.

So the north was lumped into the category of "foreign affairs" by successive southern governments because of the strength of the pound?

You can argue this both ways. The North might be regarded as a "home" affair, but the use of the term Foreign Affairs for dealing with the British government is some of a response to their attempt to claim Ireland and have their Imperial office deal with it.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B