Dublin V Donegal

[Rossfan]

Seafóidín  can you give us your thoughts on how the football championship can be "undudded"?

[seafoid]

Seafóidín  can you give us your thoughts on how the football championship can be "undudded"?

I'll give it a lash

Best practice :
Success = talent development + team organisation + group progress + psychology

Result = balanced competition ( say 5 non Dub non Kerry sams per decade)

Current practice :

Success = talent development + team organisation + group progress + psychology + money + S&C

Result: Say 2 non Dub non Kerry Sams per decade

So :

Take the money out of the equation. Everyone gets the same
Do something about S&C. Not sure what
Develop talent across the counties systematically
Change the championship. Maybe into 2  I am not sure.

I was just thinking about rural depopulation. Could there be a solution for that ? Eg Cavan, ros, Monaghan etc to get surplus players from elsewhere......

We just need a system with more competition.

[Hound]

The Super 8 advantages the counties with the deepest squads.

In 2014 McGuinness pulled off a masterstroke
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPiqcEqVu7g
but under the new format that wouldn't be enough.

Billy Fitzpatrick (KK hurler) :
"You'd wonder what might have happened afterwards had there been a back door at the time. Being beaten by so much was a surprise. Being beaten wasn't. That was always capable of happening with Wexford. Every few years they were going to beat you."

The Super 8 gives the Dubs and Kerry time to revise.
It makes winning Sam harder for everyone else.

The GAA is still left with a dud model that people are turning away from.

What complete and utter hogwash.

It's gives everyone else time to revise too. It's less likely that Dublin and Kerry will be the ones getting a second chance! Roscommon have lost once already, they could technically lose another 2 times and still make an All Ireland semi final.

If Galway lost to Kerry in S8 and meet again in AI final, they'd have a great chance to put what they learnt in defeat into practice in the final.

Maybe we should have a rule that if Dublin or Kerry lose once, then they're gone.

[seafoid]

The Super 8 advantages the counties with the deepest squads.

In 2014 McGuinness pulled off a masterstroke
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPiqcEqVu7g
but under the new format that wouldn't be enough.

Billy Fitzpatrick (KK hurler) :
"You'd wonder what might have happened afterwards had there been a back door at the time. Being beaten by so much was a surprise. Being beaten wasn't. That was always capable of happening with Wexford. Every few years they were going to beat you."

The Super 8 gives the Dubs and Kerry time to revise.
It makes winning Sam harder for everyone else.

The GAA is still left with a dud model that people are turning away from.

What complete and utter hogwash.

It's gives everyone else time to revise too. It's less likely that Dublin and Kerry will be the ones getting a second chance! Roscommon have lost once already, they could technically lose another 2 times and still make an All Ireland semi final.

If Galway lost to Kerry in S8 and meet again in AI final, they'd have a great chance to put what they learnt in defeat into practice in the final.

Maybe we should have a rule that if Dublin or Kerry lose once, then they're gone.

Don't agree. We  just finished the longest period of hurling hegemony and now we have one in football.There was a 20 year interval where Sams were spread around a bit.

Second chances benefit the most powerful counties. It is very hard to beat a top County twice in the one year.

What was the point of the back dor?  What has resulted ?

[Hound]

The Super 8 advantages the counties with the deepest squads.

In 2014 McGuinness pulled off a masterstroke
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPiqcEqVu7g
but under the new format that wouldn't be enough.

Billy Fitzpatrick (KK hurler) :
"You'd wonder what might have happened afterwards had there been a back door at the time. Being beaten by so much was a surprise. Being beaten wasn't. That was always capable of happening with Wexford. Every few years they were going to beat you."

The Super 8 gives the Dubs and Kerry time to revise.
It makes winning Sam harder for everyone else.

The GAA is still left with a dud model that people are turning away from.

What complete and utter hogwash.

It's gives everyone else time to revise too. It's less likely that Dublin and Kerry will be the ones getting a second chance! Roscommon have lost once already, they could technically lose another 2 times and still make an All Ireland semi final.

If Galway lost to Kerry in S8 and meet again in AI final, they'd have a great chance to put what they learnt in defeat into practice in the final.

Maybe we should have a rule that if Dublin or Kerry lose once, then they're gone.

Don't agree. We  just finished the longest period of hurling hegemony and now we have one in football.There was a 20 year interval where Sams were spread around a bit.

Second chances benefit the most powerful counties. It is very hard to beat a top County twice in the one year.

What was the point of the back dor?  What has resulted ?

Second chances never benefited Dublin. In fact, we may very well have won an All Ireland under Pillar Caffrey if there was no back door, as we were often beaten by teams coming through the backdoor.

Dublin would have had far more straightforward All Irelands in 2016 and 2017 had Mayo not coming storming back through the back door, and pushed us to the pin of our collars.

Back door did result in Galway winning an All Ireland.
Tyrone I'd say have won the most All Irelands through the back door.  How many had they won before the introduction of the back door?

[omagh_gael]

Two out of three (2005 and 2008) both were through the back door. Beating Dublin in both those years was the moment our seasons really kicked into gear.

[Hound]

Two out of three (2005 and 2008) both were through the back door. Beating Dublin in both those years was the moment our seasons really kicked into gear.

Croke Park wasn't dull on those two days!

[Rossfan]

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0705/976609-dublin-donegal-croke/

[twohands!!!]

Looking at the Dublin v Donegal group, it definitely looks like a serious possibility it will come down to score difference, especially if Dublin win all three of their games. 
If Dublin win all three of their games it leaves 3 other games in the group.

Tyrone/Cork v Armagh/Roscommon
Armagh/Roscommon v Donegal
Donegal v Tyrone/Cork

If the group ends up with 1 win each for the 3 non-Dublin teams, the team that progresses is the side with the best score difference.

A big component of this is likely to be not letting Dublin run up a big score - they won their 3 Leinster games by an average of 20 points.

I was also thinking of whether a team e.g. Dublin who has 2 wins going in the final round and a big score difference might be tempted to throw their final game.
I can see squad rotation (players with knocks/minor injuries being rested) but letting weaker opposition through is only going to benefit the winner of the other group by giving them an easier semi-final.

[twohands!!!]

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0705/976609-dublin-donegal-croke/

Dead cert that the motion to take Dublin out of Croker in the Super 8 passes at Congress.

[omagh_gael]

Two out of three (2005 and 2008) both were through the back door. Beating Dublin in both those years was the moment our seasons really kicked into gear.

Croke Park wasn't dull on those two days!

Without doubt the best games I've ever been at. The noise when Dublin went on that run of points in the 2nd half in the 05 replay will never be eclipsed from my point of view.

Watched it there on youtube, crap quality but gives a flavour of the craic!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zw80TtJAHe4

Football has changed something serious in the intervening years. The amount of long kick passing into the forwards in the highlights alone is unreal.

[Hound]

I was also thinking of whether a team e.g. Dublin who has 2 wins going in the final round and a big score difference might be tempted to throw their final game.
I can see squad rotation (players with knocks/minor injuries being rested) but letting weaker opposition through is only going to benefit the winner of the other group by giving them an easier semi-final.

One thing for sure is that the Round Robin will bring in controversy. And because it's the GAA that controversy will be extrapoliated and amplfied and JoeDuffified, etc. Maybe not this year, but some year.

Imagine a situation, like Leinster minor this year. Meath, having already qualified, know that if they lose to Wicklow the Dubs are out, but if they win they'll save the Dubs. Meath rested a lot of lads because the semi final was only 3 days away, so they would have been very silly not to.

But imagine that in the senior, there'll be all sorts of nonsense. And with the semi-finals only one week after the final Super 8 game, you can be pretty much guarantee that any team already qualified after 2 games will rest lads and experiment with lads in their 3rd game. They'd be mad not to. But that could very well advantage and disadvantage teams in their group, leading to much crying and moaning!

[macdanger2]

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0705/976609-dublin-donegal-croke/

Fair play to Donegal & Kildare

[Kuwabatake Sanjuro]

Common sense a year late is better than no common sense at all. Very harsh on Donegal though.

[sid waddell]

The Super 8 advantages the counties with the deepest squads.

In 2014 McGuinness pulled off a masterstroke
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPiqcEqVu7g
but under the new format that wouldn't be enough.

Billy Fitzpatrick (KK hurler) :
"You'd wonder what might have happened afterwards had there been a back door at the time. Being beaten by so much was a surprise. Being beaten wasn't. That was always capable of happening with Wexford. Every few years they were going to beat you."

The Super 8 gives the Dubs and Kerry time to revise.
It makes winning Sam harder for everyone else.

The GAA is still left with a dud model that people are turning away from.

What complete and utter hogwash.

It's gives everyone else time to revise too. It's less likely that Dublin and Kerry will be the ones getting a second chance! Roscommon have lost once already, they could technically lose another 2 times and still make an All Ireland semi final.

If Galway lost to Kerry in S8 and meet again in AI final, they'd have a great chance to put what they learnt in defeat into practice in the final.

Maybe we should have a rule that if Dublin or Kerry lose once, then they're gone.

Don't agree. We  just finished the longest period of hurling hegemony and now we have one in football.There was a 20 year interval where Sams were spread around a bit.

Second chances benefit the most powerful counties. It is very hard to beat a top County twice in the one year.

What was the point of the back dor?  What has resulted ?

Second chances never benefited Dublin. In fact, we may very well have won an All Ireland under Pillar Caffrey if there was no back door, as we were often beaten by teams coming through the backdoor.

Dublin would have had far more straightforward All Irelands in 2016 and 2017 had Mayo not coming storming back through the back door, and pushed us to the pin of our collars.

Back door did result in Galway winning an All Ireland.
Tyrone I'd say have won the most All Irelands through the back door.  How many had they won before the introduction of the back door?

2010. Pat Gilroy probably wouldn't have been around in 2011 had Dublin shipping five goals to Meath resulted in elimination from the 2010 championship, rather than a successful run in the back door. That back door run in 2010 was a key part of that team's formation, even though they fell just short against Cork.

From 2001-2010, Dublin weren't really considered one of the genuinely elite teams. There was an element of flash in the pan about 2002, while under Pillar Caffrey, they were still always a notch or two below Kerry, Tyrone, and up to 2005/06, Armagh.

In terms of winning or reaching All-Ireland finals, the back door has undoubtedly benefitted the stronger teams of the time.

During the back door era, the genuinely elite teams of the time have been:
2001: Kerry/Meath/Galway
2002: Kerry/Armagh
2003-2006: Kerry/Tyrone/Armagh
2007-2010: Kerry/Tyrone/Cork
2011-2012: Kerry/Dublin/Donegal/Cork/Mayo
2013-2014: Dublin/Mayo/Kerry/Donegal
2015 - present: Dublin/Mayo/Kerry

Teams to reach back door finals in that time are:
2001: Galway (won)
2002: Kerry (lost)
2003: Armagh (lost)
2005: Tyrone (won)
2006: Kerry (won)
2007: Cork (lost)
2008: Kerry and Tyrone
2009: Kerry (won)
2010: Cork and Down
2016: Mayo (lost)
2017: Mayo (lost)

Of those 13 back door finalists, only Down in 2010 were a "dark horse". It's arguable as to whether Cork were genuinely elite class by 2007, but they were certainly one of the top three or four teams in the country. 11 of those 13 back door finalists were solidly in the elite category of the time.

Since 2001, the only instances where one of the elite teams of the time, having won their provincial championship, have surprisingly lost out to a non-elite team have been:
2004: Armagh losing to Fermanagh
2007: Tyrone losing to Meath
2010: Kerry losing to Down

At a push you could throw in Galway losing to Donegal in 2003 and Armagh losing to Wexford in 2008, as there were still notions at the time that Galway 2003 and Armagh 2008 were still just about on the coat-tails of the elite, but in reality both of those teams were by then on an irrevocable downward trajectory.

Tyrone's loss to Dublin in 2010 was unexpected, but time would prove that that game was where Dublin permanently traded places with Tyrone as regards which team was a contender and which was an also-ran.