Quinn Insurance in Administration

[Pub Bore]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-19165286.amp

Do you have the numbers? 2% on all insurance premiums over 10 years seems a lot. From what I can make out with a quick search the govt have allowed the Insurance industry to lobby to continue this, and I can't see any verification of the figures they've provided (even in article you provide the scale of the escalating losses looks sketchy). Looks to me like the intent is a permanent measure with quinn blamed as the bogeyman for as long as posible.


https://www.independent.ie/business/anger-at-sneaky-new-insurance-levy-that-could-place-a-further-toll-on-policy-holders-40875485.html

1.65b it says in that article. Didn't the government put 2b aside this year for a rainy day? There is an element of Quinn taking on the establishment and they want him to get his comeuppance. Alan Duke oozes a "serves him right" attitude.
David Drumm, Sean Fitzpatrick, Lenehan (completely out of his depth by the way) Cowan and Patrick Neary all needed someone to blame. Quinn didn't burst the country. But he's getting the blame.

Drumm did a runner to the US but eventually did couple of years in clink here, I think.  FitzPatrick was another schmoozer but Neary was downright incompetent.

Significant point in the doc last night was when Drumm and Fitzpatrick told Quinn not to buy any more CFDs (and he agreed) and then went right out and bought some more.  I get the impression Quinn thought "Those schmart alecs up in Dublin don't tell Sean Quinn what to do"

[trailer]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-19165286.amp

Do you have the numbers? 2% on all insurance premiums over 10 years seems a lot. From what I can make out with a quick search the govt have allowed the Insurance industry to lobby to continue this, and I can't see any verification of the figures they've provided (even in article you provide the scale of the escalating losses looks sketchy). Looks to me like the intent is a permanent measure with quinn blamed as the bogeyman for as long as posible.


https://www.independent.ie/business/anger-at-sneaky-new-insurance-levy-that-could-place-a-further-toll-on-policy-holders-40875485.html

1.65b it says in that article. Didn't the government put 2b aside this year for a rainy day? There is an element of Quinn taking on the establishment and they want him to get his comeuppance. Alan Duke oozes a "serves him right" attitude.
David Drumm, Sean Fitzpatrick, Lenehan (completely out of his depth by the way) Cowan and Patrick Neary all needed someone to blame. Quinn didn't burst the country. But he's getting the blame.

Drumm did a runner to the US but eventually did couple of years in clink here, I think.  FitzPatrick was another schmoozer but Neary was downright incompetent.

Significant point in the doc last night was when Drumm and Fitzpatrick told Quinn not to buy any more CFDs (and he agreed) and then went right out and bought some more.  I get the impression Quinn thought "Those schmart alecs up in Dublin don't tell Sean Quinn what to do"

Definitely. No one tells Sean Quinn what to do and that was ultimately his downfall. That tends to be the case with a lot of those types of ultra successful people.

[Louther]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-19165286.amp

Do you have the numbers? 2% on all insurance premiums over 10 years seems a lot. From what I can make out with a quick search the govt have allowed the Insurance industry to lobby to continue this, and I can't see any verification of the figures they've provided (even in article you provide the scale of the escalating losses looks sketchy). Looks to me like the intent is a permanent measure with quinn blamed as the bogeyman for as long as posible.


https://www.independent.ie/business/anger-at-sneaky-new-insurance-levy-that-could-place-a-further-toll-on-policy-holders-40875485.html

1.65b it says in that article. Didn't the government put 2b aside this year for a rainy day? There is an element of Quinn taking on the establishment and they want him to get his comeuppance. Alan Duke oozes a "serves him right" attitude.
David Drumm, Sean Fitzpatrick, Lenehan (completely out of his depth by the way) Cowan and Patrick Neary all needed someone to blame. Quinn didn't burst the country. But he's getting the blame.

Drumm did a runner to the US but eventually did couple of years in clink here, I think.  FitzPatrick was another schmoozer but Neary was downright incompetent.

Significant point in the doc last night was when Drumm and Fitzpatrick told Quinn not to buy any more CFDs (and he agreed) and then went right out and bought some more.  I get the impression Quinn thought "Those schmart alecs up in Dublin don't tell Sean Quinn what to do"

This is the point that a lot of Quinn defenders don't take onboard. They will say that Drumm and Fitzpatrick painted him a rosy picture of the bank and he fell for it.

But there is very little evidence that Quinn was that type of person. He was very much his own man, own decision maker and drove his own agenda. He wanted Anglo as his own bank and was going to show up whoever said he couldn't. He would have totally made his own mind up to chase those CFDs, he still quoting figures about how the bank was performing which was publicly available as a listed company.

His mistake wasn't trying to invest in those CFDs, it was investing in them to own the bank.

[Pub Bore]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-19165286.amp

Do you have the numbers? 2% on all insurance premiums over 10 years seems a lot. From what I can make out with a quick search the govt have allowed the Insurance industry to lobby to continue this, and I can't see any verification of the figures they've provided (even in article you provide the scale of the escalating losses looks sketchy). Looks to me like the intent is a permanent measure with quinn blamed as the bogeyman for as long as posible.


https://www.independent.ie/business/anger-at-sneaky-new-insurance-levy-that-could-place-a-further-toll-on-policy-holders-40875485.html

1.65b it says in that article. Didn't the government put 2b aside this year for a rainy day? There is an element of Quinn taking on the establishment and they want him to get his comeuppance. Alan Duke oozes a "serves him right" attitude.
David Drumm, Sean Fitzpatrick, Lenehan (completely out of his depth by the way) Cowan and Patrick Neary all needed someone to blame. Quinn didn't burst the country. But he's getting the blame.

Drumm did a runner to the US but eventually did couple of years in clink here, I think.  FitzPatrick was another schmoozer but Neary was downright incompetent.

Significant point in the doc last night was when Drumm and Fitzpatrick told Quinn not to buy any more CFDs (and he agreed) and then went right out and bought some more.  I get the impression Quinn thought "Those schmart alecs up in Dublin don't tell Sean Quinn what to do"

This is the point that a lot of Quinn defenders don't take onboard. They will say that Drumm and Fitzpatrick painted him a rosy picture of the bank and he fell for it.

But there is very little evidence that Quinn was that type of person. He was very much his own man, own decision maker and drove his own agenda. He wanted Anglo as his own bank and was going to show up whoever said he couldn't. He would have totally made his own mind up to chase those CFDs, he still quoting figures about how the bank was performing which was publicly available as a listed company.

His mistake wasn't trying to invest in those CFDs, it was investing in them to own the bank.

Spot on.  SQ wanted to own a bank.  Probably because in the black and white way he sees life, if you owned a bank you wouldn't have to ask any pink tie wearing twat for a loan, you'd just take the money.

We might get to it in the final episode but there are a couple of follow up questions they should have asked Quinn.  He now admits that he shouldn't have taken the money from the Insurance Co, so why did he do it?  The same with CFDs, he now admits it was wrong to buy more after he had agreed not to, so why did he do it?  And why did he hide the fact that he owned so many CFDs until the last moment?

[whitey]

Smarter men than Sean Quinn met their Waterloo when dealing with derivative contracts

As someone told me one time, think of "the Granny Rule"

If you can't explain it to your Granny, you shouldn't be buying it!

[Smokin Joe]

I thought his incredulity displayed last night when he say that McCaffrey and Lunney had agreed to pledge the Insurance company's assets without his knowledge was fairly far fetched.
Seemingly they were having to facilitate SQ borrowing large amounts of money regularly, and presumably at short notice.  The loans were required to shore up his (or his family's) personal investments.  Surely SQ wasn't surprised as to the collateral which may have been required in order to borrow the €2.3bn from Anglo that he borrowed.

[smelmoth]

If he had never heard of CFDs and stuck with that investment policy of a third on property, a third on shares and a third into the Companies it would have been a very different story.

Even if he hadn't dipped into the Insurance reserves to cover the margins, he would have held onto the group and worked his way out of the debt.

If Sean Quinn the businessman hadn't made the business mistakes that Sean Quinn the businessman made he would have been a better businessman.

Difficult to argue with that.

[smelmoth]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-19165286.amp

Do you have the numbers? 2% on all insurance premiums over 10 years seems a lot. From what I can make out with a quick search the govt have allowed the Insurance industry to lobby to continue this, and I can't see any verification of the figures they've provided (even in article you provide the scale of the escalating losses looks sketchy). Looks to me like the intent is a permanent measure with quinn blamed as the bogeyman for as long as posible.


https://www.independent.ie/business/anger-at-sneaky-new-insurance-levy-that-could-place-a-further-toll-on-policy-holders-40875485.html

It's a levy on Insurance companies (which obviously they pass on to the insured). Why would they want this continued?

Your bogeyman theory belongs in the WTF thread. Unless you have something to back it up?

[smelmoth]

The 1.65bn is what they are saying it 'could' rise to - which Noonan himself thought that was dodgy going by that article - I meant though what 2% on each insurance premium comes to over 10 years. I would have thought even those estimates would be rightly covered by now

Yeah I agree with you. The 2% levy is bound to have covered the loss at this point.

Any numbers?

[trailer]

The 1.65bn is what they are saying it 'could' rise to - which Noonan himself thought that was dodgy going by that article - I meant though what 2% on each insurance premium comes to over 10 years. I would have thought even those estimates would be rightly covered by now

Yeah I agree with you. The 2% levy is bound to have covered the loss at this point.

Any numbers?

June 21

However, since 2010 the amount collected under these specific stamp duties is c.€1.6 billion
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2021-06-02/98/#pq-answers-98

[smelmoth]

The 1.65bn is what they are saying it 'could' rise to - which Noonan himself thought that was dodgy going by that article - I meant though what 2% on each insurance premium comes to over 10 years. I would have thought even those estimates would be rightly covered by now

Yeah I agree with you. The 2% levy is bound to have covered the loss at this point.

Any numbers?

June 21

However, since 2010 the amount collected under these specific stamp duties is c.€1.6 billion
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2021-06-02/98/#pq-answers-98

If I was you I would read that article again.It differentiates between the levy and the stamp duty. You appear to be extracting an answer about the stamp duty to provide information about the levy.

Quinn's lasting gift to Irish society is the levy. The stamp duty is a separate debate

[Rossfan]

As for the levy....
My guesstimate -
Around 2million motor vehicles insured at average say €750= €1.5Bn. 2% = €30m.
Same for House Insurance .
An awful lot of €60ms in €1.6Bn.

[haranguerer]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-19165286.amp

Do you have the numbers? 2% on all insurance premiums over 10 years seems a lot. From what I can make out with a quick search the govt have allowed the Insurance industry to lobby to continue this, and I can't see any verification of the figures they've provided (even in article you provide the scale of the escalating losses looks sketchy). Looks to me like the intent is a permanent measure with quinn blamed as the bogeyman for as long as posible.


https://www.independent.ie/business/anger-at-sneaky-new-insurance-levy-that-could-place-a-further-toll-on-policy-holders-40875485.html

It's a levy on Insurance companies (which obviously they pass on to the insured). Why would they want this continued?

Your bogeyman theory belongs in the WTF thread. Unless you have something to back it up?

Possibly so, and it sounds as though you know more than me about it. But I'm going by reports I've read. Govt agree to reintroduce levy to cover historic shortfall. In quick order estimated shortfall balloons, as Liberty say they didn't realise how bad things were  . Surely that means Liberty will have benefitted by paying less and passing the difference to the govt i.e. taxpayer?

It has since been sold to Liberty, the fifth largest insurance company in the world, under an agreement that historical shortfalls would be covered by the new levy. The president of the High Court, Nicholas Kearns, asked the expert witnesses on Tuesday why the costs of covering the losses could rise to 1.65bn euro from a previous estimate of 738m euro. He was told it was down to under-provisioning for potential losses in the company before it was sold.

He [Noonan] said he was at a loss as to how such a large underestimation in the potential call on the government's Insurance Compensation Fund could not have been foreseen to a greater extent.

[haranguerer]

As for the levy....
My guesstimate -
Around 2million motor vehicles insured at average say €750= €1.5Bn. 2% = €30m.
Same for House Insurance .
An awful lot of €60ms in €1.6Bn.

All non-life insurance policies I believe? That'd be a lot more than house/car.

[armaghniac]

If Sean Quinn the businessman hadn't made the business mistakes that Sean Quinn the businessman made he would have been a better businessman.

Difficult to argue with that.

If Sean Quinn the businessman had continued in business rather than in speculation, then he would be a wealthy man still.