Quinn Insurance in Administration

[muppet]

What also became clear in the case is that Anglo was aware of SQ's involvement before the infamous meeting in Buswells. If Anglo hadn't offered SQ the first loans in dec 2007 for 500m then SQ would have been forced to take the hit then before the share price completely tanked in 2008. Also they were still spinning the line that the bank was in "rude health" when they were well aware the bank was in a mess.

Yes, there were rumours. A Sunday paper had speculated on the matter. The market is usually rife with rumours. But it was a CFD. No one knew how much he had for sure.

As for Anglo talking about 'rude health'. Did you expect a press release stated they were goosed?

Not at all. I just would have expected them to not get involved in share support. Had they not at that stage then Quinn would have been forced to unwind his stake at that stage before the St Paddys day massacre.

He would probably have brought forward the St. Patrick's Day massacre then.

[muppet]

Why is it farcical to compare SQ and Joe blogs if we are talking about principles of law? Surely they should apply equally?

Anglo told SQ to unwind the position. So what? That's not their call to make. Do you think if some multi billion fund manager was told to do something by a portfolio company but they thought they could increase their profit or reduce a loss by acting differently they would agree to it? For everyone with a pensions sake I hope they wouldn't.

It's one of the functions of being a public company, you want to access the public markets for cash you have to accept the volatility of the same markets.

But we weren't talking about principles of law, were we? If you keep moving your goal posts, what it the point of trying to discuss the issue.

How is Quinn responsible in any way for forcing the bailout? Anglo was doomed no matter what SQ did (legally) on the cfds. Whatever your views on how the family reacted to the unraveling of the whole sorry mess, as I said earlier if he gambled and lost €3.2bn that's his prerogative. He had earned the right to do that by building up his empire to that value.

The fact that debt has landed on the taxpayer is not his fault. Do you blame every small business owner who defaulted on an Anglo loan for the bailout?

Like I said, "every small business owner who defaulted on an Anglo loan" wasn't a 30% shareholder in Anglo and wasn't Ireland richest man. Every small business holder hadn't 'breached regulations' - broke the law to you and me - in their insurance business either.

I don't know enough about the insurance levy but I can't see how it caused the bailout. If the levy is due to losses In quinn insurance that strikes me as a failure in regulation.

I'm not dismissing the cfds. The problem that SQ brought to Anglo was that he had pursued a legal investment strategy that had went bad with the result that his fortune was on the line. Anglo could have turned round and said bad luck Sean and let market forces do their work. Again, not sure what he did wrong in your eyes?

for example, Joe blogs owns a house worth €100k and mortgages it to buy €100k of Anglo shares. Credit crunch happens and he's lost the lot. What has Joe done wrong?

Joe will be pursued for his losses or will have to do a deal. This has nothing to do with Quinn who, for the 4th time, owned 30% of the bank. How does that compare with Joe Blogs?

[muppet]

What also became clear in the case is that Anglo was aware of SQ's involvement before the infamous meeting in Buswells. If Anglo hadn't offered SQ the first loans in dec 2007 for 500m then SQ would have been forced to take the hit then before the share price completely tanked in 2008. Also they were still spinning the line that the bank was in "rude health" when they were well aware the bank was in a mess.

Insisting that Anglo executives were aware as far back as late 2007 that the bank was in trouble, Mr Quinn said he wouldn't have bought one share if he had similar information.

Asked how he'd feel if former Anglo chief executive David Drumm hadn't been willing to lend him money at the end of 2007, Mr Quinn replied: "I'd be a happy man today."

Are you confusing meetings in Buswells?

The meeting where he revealed the 24% holding was in september 2007.

[TabClear]

I tried to quote various points you made Muppet but I'm still struggling with the quote function. but

But we weren't talking about principles of law, were we? If you keep moving your goal posts, what it the point of trying to discuss the issue.

I was talking about the law as it happens. I think what I said was what had SQ done wrong compared to Jo Blogs example. Given we are discussing an ongoing trial, your references to future trials, jail time etc I don't think this could be construed as "moving goalposts".

Joe will be pursued for his losses or will have to do a deal. This has nothing to do with Quinn who, for the 4th time, owned 30% of the bank. How does that compare with Joe Blogs?

So SQ did a deal, the deal did not address the problem so then he was pursued for his losses and bankrupted. Seems very similar to the process you advocate for Joe but for some reason you seem to think SQ deserves additional punishment (notwithstanding there may have been further actions after the loss regarding asset movements etc but as you have said, that is/was the focus of a separate action). I'm assuming this is because SQ had more money so he breached some of your thresholds? (I'm speculating of course, I do not know what is behind your reasoning as is increasingly obvious).

[haranguerer]

haranguerer, I have dealt with that many times before, for example:

I'm referring to your saracastic comment re SQ saying he had 'dipped his toes' in CFDs. The full quote is below, its clear he said that regarding any CFDs he was involved in before Anglo, not that he regarded Anglo as 'dipping his toes' as you implied.

'He said that he had "dipped his toes" in contracts for difference, the method used to purchase the Anglo shares, but that the bank represented a whole new ball game. He said:

With Anglo, we put our head, neck and feet in.'

[supersarsfields]

What also became clear in the case is that Anglo was aware of SQ's involvement before the infamous meeting in Buswells. If Anglo hadn't offered SQ the first loans in dec 2007 for 500m then SQ would have been forced to take the hit then before the share price completely tanked in 2008. Also they were still spinning the line that the bank was in "rude health" when they were well aware the bank was in a mess.

Yes, there were rumours. A Sunday paper had speculated on the matter. The market is usually rife with rumours. But it was a CFD. No one knew how much he had for sure.

As for Anglo talking about 'rude health'. Did you expect a press release stated they were goosed?

Not at all. I just would have expected them to not get involved in share support. Had they not at that stage then Quinn would have been forced to unwind his stake at that stage before the St Paddys day massacre.

He would probably have brought forward the St. Patrick's Day massacre then.

Possibly to a certain extent, but Quinns were CFD's, he didn't have to look for a buyer. My understanding is that he would have been liable for his original 15% plus any drop in the share price to date from the original investment share price to close out his position. The share price may have tumbled afterwards but that wouldn't have been a concern for SQ anymore. Which is why Anglo didn't want this to happen.

Are you confusing meetings in Buswells?
The meeting where he revealed the 24% holding was in September 2007.

Again very possibly. I had originally thought prior to the case that Anglo only found out early 2008 on the CFD investment and not 2007.

[muppet]

haranguerer, I have dealt with that many times before, for example:

I'm referring to your saracastic comment re SQ saying he had 'dipped his toes' in CFDs. The full quote is below, its clear he said that regarding any CFDs he was involved in before Anglo, not that he regarded Anglo as 'dipping his toes' as you implied.

'He said that he had "dipped his toes" in contracts for difference, the method used to purchase the Anglo shares, but that the bank represented a whole new ball game. He said:

With Anglo, we put our head, neck and feet in.'

Your comment wasn't clear, I thought you referred to what happened before it went sour on him.

But I agree, he first said he 'dipped his toes', then later in the article it did quote him as you said.

[muppet]

What also became clear in the case is that Anglo was aware of SQ's involvement before the infamous meeting in Buswells. If Anglo hadn't offered SQ the first loans in dec 2007 for 500m then SQ would have been forced to take the hit then before the share price completely tanked in 2008. Also they were still spinning the line that the bank was in "rude health" when they were well aware the bank was in a mess.

Yes, there were rumours. A Sunday paper had speculated on the matter. The market is usually rife with rumours. But it was a CFD. No one knew how much he had for sure.

As for Anglo talking about 'rude health'. Did you expect a press release stated they were goosed?

Not at all. I just would have expected them to not get involved in share support. Had they not at that stage then Quinn would have been forced to unwind his stake at that stage before the St Paddys day massacre.

He would probably have brought forward the St. Patrick's Day massacre then.

Possibly to a certain extent, but Quinns were CFD's, he didn't have to look for a buyer. My understanding is that he would have been liable for his original 15% plus any drop in the share price to date from the original investment share price to close out his position. The share price may have tumbled afterwards but that wouldn't have been a concern for SQ anymore. Which is why Anglo didn't want this to happen.

This may have been possible. In theory he should have been able to close the CFD at the agreed price and what happened after wasn't his problem. However the testimony is fascinating because it is obvious that even as late as Easter 2008 Sean Quinn did not want to sell out. He still believed it would recover, even after the St. Patrick's Day massacre.

I agree he would probably have been better off if he tried to sell, but the evidence shows he bought more sometime after they told him to unwind, and that he didn't want to sell even when the Maple deal 10 was being constructed.

Are you confusing meetings in Buswells?
The meeting where he revealed the 24% holding was in September 2007.

Again very possibly. I had originally thought prior to the case that Anglo only found out early 2008 on the CFD investment and not 2007.

SQ appeared to agree it was in September 2007, although he said it was in the Ardboyne Hotel in Navan: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/best-of-times-and-worst-of-times-for-ex-tycoon-1.1686854?page=1

The interesting thing for me over the last few days is to view the whole thing from the point of view of the Regulator. We tend to look at what Quinn was doing or what Anglo did. But the common denominator was the Regulator.

Quinn had a problem with a loan from one business to another. The Regulator got involved and Quinn was fined. Then something else (I forget!) happened in the Quinn Group and the Regulator got very heavy handed. But this was in 2008, which means at the same time the Regulator would have becoming aware of the CFD crisis with Anglo. The Regulator, rightly or wrongly, must have seen the two issues as inextricably linked.

My attitude to Quinn or Fitzpatrick hasn't changed, in fact I think less of Quinn the more I read his testimony, but this trial needs the Regulator in the dock. Then it would be very interesting.

[supersarsfields]

Possibility of a Buy out of the Quinn Group.

group of businessmen from the north-west have clubbed together in a bid to buy the former Quinn Group's manufacturing operations from the receivers for around €500m.



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The three businessmen have created a firm called Quinn Business Retention Company to buy the businesses of Aventas Manufacturing Group. The men, from both sides of the Border, say they have got backing from overseas finance houses for their bid as well as the "moral" support of Sean Quinn.

Aventas is the owner of the former Quinn Group's glass, plastic, packaging and radiator manufacturers.

"We are in direct discussions with the management team at Aventas and their advisers with a view to purchasing the business outright," the businessmen said in a statement yesterday.

"A community-led, locally sponsored, rescue of the business has long been seen as the only workable way forward for the business that has been a mainstay of economic well-being in the communities of the Border region for almost 40 years."

The businessmen say they have the support of many of the previous executive team, including former chief executive Liam McCaffrey and the local workforce.

The business leaders said their prime objective was to keep the former Quinn Group whole, avoiding at all costs a breakup or piecemeal sale of individual businesses.

"I decided to do what many have been saying should be done for a long time," said John McCartin, who is one of the three businessmen, a local Fine Gael councillor and the chief executive of Newtowngore Engineering in Leitrim.

LOCALLY

"We believe that the only way forward here is to keep the businesses together and locally managed."

Cllr McCartin said they had held talks with the existing management about a possible bid and could probably offer more cash for the businesses than most other bidders, because they have the backing of the former management.

The trio have not yet seen the detailed figures on how Aventas is performing, so it is impossible to put a price on any bid, Cllr McCartin said.

The two other businessmen leading the charge are Ernie Fisher, who is a former managing director of Fisher Engineering, and John (Bosco) O'Hagan, who is the owner and managing director of the Specialist Joinery Group, which sponsors the Derry GAA team.

The three men are being advised by accountant Michael McAllister.

Irish Independent

[Rossfan]

If these ignorant fcukheads don't want employment in ther area - we have plenty of space for this operation in Roscommon --

There's been a fire at the former Quinn Glass plant in Derrylin, Co Fermanagh.
Just after 10pm last night, a generator was set alight near the building along the Ballyconnell Road.
No one was injured in the arson attack on the now rebranded Aventas group.
This is the fourth attack since December on the property empire once owned by Cavan businessman Sean Quinn.
PSNI detectives are investigating reports of arson at Quinn Glass last night.
Shortly after 10pm, a generator in the area was set alight. No one is believed to have been injured during the incident.
Police believe entry was gained at the rear of the premises.
In previous incidents an oil tanker was smashed into the doors of Aventas HQ, a bus set alight, while hundreds of homes were left without phone or broadband services last month in a petrol bomb attack.
Sean Quinn has previously condemned the attacks saying those responsible were not acting in his name.

[supersarsfields]

It takes one person to throw a petrol bomb, hardly indicative of the entire population of the area.

[orangeman]

Only takes one to start a war.

[Rossfan]

It takes one person to throw a petrol bomb, hardly indicative of the entire population of the area.

So it's ok then??

[johnneycool]

It takes one person to throw a petrol bomb, hardly indicative of the entire population of the area.

It takes an entire community to turn a blind eye though.

[supersarsfields]

It takes one person to throw a petrol bomb, hardly indicative of the entire population of the area.

It takes an entire community to turn a blind eye though.

Nonsense. Most of the community are against the attacks, and are quiet open about that. What exactly do you expect them to do? The PSNI and Gardai, can't get anywhere so how is the entire community turning a blind eye?