Quinn Insurance in Administration

[TabClear]

If anything Quinn's cfds kept Anglos life support turned on as it created an artificial market for the shares. My point is that Quinn investing in Anglo was stupid, illformed , greedy whatever you want to call it but it wasn't illegal. He had earned the right to gamble on that scale if he so chose.

some of the actions after the ship started to sink might have been questionable in terms of moving assets et all but to my knowledge he has not been charged under criminal law.

[muppet]

If anything Quinn's cfds kept Anglos life support turned on as it created an artificial market for the shares. My point is that Quinn investing in Anglo was stupid, illformed , greedy whatever you want to call it but it wasn't illegal. He had earned the right to gamble on that scale if he so chose.

some of the actions after the ship started to sink might have been questionable in terms of moving assets et all but to my knowledge he has not been charged under criminal law.

Oh dear.

But seriously, I am glad you wrote that. You appear to be arguing for his immediate arrest which is something I would like to see.

It is pathetic and sickening to see him portray himself as some sort of victim of all of this. I see the judge was 'irked' by some of his testimony.

Quinn suggested he had "dipped his toes" in CFDs - http://www.thejournal.ie/sean-quinn-1309099-Feb2014/.

This is like describing the Irish pack's performance against Wales as: softly wooing them.

[haranguerer]

Really Muppet? What do you know about his CFD activity before Anglo? Either you can't read or are wilfully misinterpreting a perfectly clear sentence.

[supersarsfields]

Sean Quinn on trial is he? As he admitted on numerous occasions today he might have been greedy,stupid etc but there are no criminal charges against him. He gambled and lost. Big.

The case this week is about whether the house was stacking the deck in its favour.

Not really. You 'hole' analogy was better. Quinn had punched a massive hole in Anglo (although I think it would have gone down anyway in the long run) and the trial is whether Anglo's attempt to mitigate it was illegal.

But Quinn's initial disastrous gamble can't be blamed on Anglo or their useless management.

True, Anglo management couldn't be blamed for SQ making the gamble. That gobsmacking decision will always lie with him. But it was the performance of Anglo that punched the whole in Quinn Group finances. As SQ mentioned yesterday in 2007 Anglo were declaring 46% increase in profits and yet the share price was dropping by 40%. The numbers they were dealing with didn't stack up. Had Anglo been preforming or even holding it's own then QG wouldn't have had to raid it's reserves.
They were saying the bank was in "rude health" when it was obvious they were screwed.

[screenexile]

Came across this site today  . . . reminds me of the ramblings of Woundring Wullie!!

https://www.facebook.com/WeAreCIC

[supersarsfields]

The maple 10 have started to give evidence now.

It's not looking good for the Anglo board or indeed the Department of Finance/ Regulator at the time. All witnesses so far seem to imply that the department of finance was well informed regarding the deals.

[TabClear]

If anything Quinn's cfds kept Anglos life support turned on as it created an artificial market for the shares. My point is that Quinn investing in Anglo was stupid, illformed , greedy whatever you want to call it but it wasn't illegal. He had earned the right to gamble on that scale if he so chose.

some of the actions after the ship started to sink might have been questionable in terms of moving assets et all but to my knowledge he has not been charged under criminal law.

Oh dear.
But seriously, I am glad you wrote that. You appear to be arguing for his immediate arrest which is something I would like to see.

It is pathetic and sickening to see him portray himself as some sort of victim of all of this. I see the judge was 'irked' by some of his testimony.

Quinn suggested he had "dipped his toes" in CFDs - http://www.thejournal.ie/sean-quinn-1309099-Feb2014/.

This is like describing the Irish pack's performance against Wales as: softly wooing them.

Muppet, If you could manage to elaborate on what is confusing you about the bit you highlighted?? And perhaps if you could also elaborate on how you have come to the conclusion "You appear to be arguing for his immediate arrest" ? Pretty clear where you stand on this but not everyone shares your views.

[orangeman]

The maple 10 have started to give evidence now.

It's not looking good for the Anglo board or indeed the Department of Finance/ Regulator at the time. All witnesses so far seem to imply that the department of finance was well informed regarding the deals.

oops !!!   

[muppet]

If anything Quinn's cfds kept Anglos life support turned on as it created an artificial market for the shares. My point is that Quinn investing in Anglo was stupid, illformed , greedy whatever you want to call it but it wasn't illegal. He had earned the right to gamble on that scale if he so chose.

some of the actions after the ship started to sink might have been questionable in terms of moving assets et all but to my knowledge he has not been charged under criminal law.

Oh dear.
But seriously, I am glad you wrote that. You appear to be arguing for his immediate arrest which is something I would like to see.

It is pathetic and sickening to see him portray himself as some sort of victim of all of this. I see the judge was 'irked' by some of his testimony.

Quinn suggested he had "dipped his toes" in CFDs - http://www.thejournal.ie/sean-quinn-1309099-Feb2014/.

This is like describing the Irish pack's performance against Wales as: softly wooing them.

Muppet, If you could manage to elaborate on what is confusing you about the bit you highlighted?? And perhaps if you could also elaborate on how you have come to the conclusion "You appear to be arguing for his immediate arrest" ? Pretty clear where you stand on this but not everyone shares your views.

If I owned something that 'created an artificial market for the shares', as you said Sean Quinn did, I would be very worried. In fact Sean Quinn was pretty worried too, that is why he eventually went to Anglo to tell them about the CFDs. He was in big trouble, but knew that because of his CFDs - so was Anglo.

The trial is about alleged illegal share dealing and in reality it is about manipulating the market. Seanie and co seem to think that because the Regulator was told about it, that makes it all ok. I really hope that doesn't stand up. Sean Quinn's family's testimony appears to be along the lines of: 'a big boy made me do it' defence. I would be very disappointed if that stood up.

The young Quinn's testimony, from what I read, appears to make no mention of their father. I would also be disappointed if this stood up.

My guess is that this trial will either collapse, or lead to a lot more trials and maybe a lot of convictions. I am hoping it is the latter.

haranguerer, I have dealt with that many times before, for example:

The details regarding the letter by Liam McCaffrey will be involved in the case so I'll not go into too that. But there's a lot more than what was in Anglo Republic, including the attempt by IBRC (Not even Anglo!!) To get retrospective documents signed by the Quinn Children.

I'm not misinformed regarding the "buyer not seller" comment. That was actually part of the Anglo tapes.

One of the most hotly contested issues between the two sides is whether or not Anglo chiefs encouraged the former billionaire's massive, and doomed, gamble on their bank's shares in the run up to the banking crisis of 2008.

The latest Anglo Tapes do reveal how Mr Quinn was told by Mr Drumm that he needed to get a message out of confidence in the bank by saying he was "a buyer not a seller" of the bank's shares.

Anglo bosses were desperate to prevent the collapse in the price of their bank's shares that would have happened if Mr Quinn had started publicly ditching his massive holdings of the stock, the tapes show.

That's from the independent. They knew, that SQ was still buying shares in the bank in 2008 at a time when the directors knew it was going to the wall.

And in seperate news I see the Quinn group attempting fraud of their biggest glass customer. A customer who is responsible for 20% of it's business, diagio. When a batch of glass worth close to a million was returned due to quality issues, the head hunchos in Quinns decided it would be a better idea to re label the same shipment and send it back out to them rather than recyling and redoing. But diagio got wind, so now they're whole contract is in danger. These are the sort of people running the show now. People who are selling of assets like plant and machinery to try and balance books!! Paul O'Brien should have been roaded out of there ages ago.

Hang on a second. You are twisting things and ignoring context to suit your argument.

The bit in bold conflicts with Carswell's (to date un-sued) account and is inconsistent with the secretive nature of CFDs. Quinn told Anglo he had 24% at his first meeting with Fitzpatrick and Drumm. That was the first or the board they knew of it. How could they have encouraged him to do that when they were absolutely horrified when they became aware of it?

The Anglo tapes saying Quinn or Anglo should put out a message that Quinn was a 'buyer not a seller' is irrelevant. It is not the same as saying: 'Sean, you must buy more shares'.

'Putting out a message' is what people do when they are spinning or trying give given an impression that often is completely opposite to the reality. But it means nothing. The facts are that they wanted him to reduce his holding, they founds buyers (Maple 10) to help him do that and SQ bought the extra shares in 2008 despite Fitzpatrick and Drumm telling him to 'unwind' his holding.

Anglo believed that Quinn saw the share price rising but didn't connect that to his own buying and decided to buy more!

Regardless, as the Quinn family has not included Sean Quinn nor Liam McCaffrey along with the Anglo directors in their case I personally can't take it seriously.

Back to the Indo allegation  , can you provide another reasonably reliable source that alleges the Anglo directors encouraged Quinn directly to enter the CFDs?

[Rossfan]

The maple 10 have started to give evidence now.

It's not looking good for the Anglo board or indeed the Department of Finance/ Regulator at the time. All witnesses so far seem to imply that the department of finance was well informed regarding the deals.

They would, wouldn't they ?

[muppet]

The maple 10 have started to give evidence now.

It's not looking good for the Anglo board or indeed the Department of Finance/ Regulator at the time. All witnesses so far seem to imply that the department of finance was well informed regarding the deals.

They would, wouldn't they ?

I am inclined to believe there is some truth in that.

How the Regulator and the Dept. handle this trial will be very interesting. But I sincerely hope no one gets away with hiding wrongdoing behind 'we got the nod and a wink from official Ireland' defence.

[TabClear]

If I owned something that 'created an artificial market for the shares', as you said Sean Quinn did, I would be very worried. In fact Sean Quinn was pretty worried too, that is why he eventually went to Anglo to tell them about the CFDs. He was in big trouble, but knew that because of his CFDs - so was Anglo.

Muppet, regarding the extract above are you inferring in some way that there was something illegal in SQs CFD trades? Just to be clear, there was nt. There is a difference between creating an "artifical market" through putting out false information etc=insider trading=illegal.  What I was referring to was that SQ had potentially kept the share price artifically high through irrational demand=stupid/expensive/greedy=legal. If someone decides they are willing to pay twice what any share is worth on a whim irresepective of the underlying investment case, the price will increase. Supply and demand

The reason Sean Quinn was worried is because he had bet the farm on it, it was unravelling and he was losing a fortune.

Sean Quinn is making no "defence" as you put it. He is giving evidence, he is not on trial. The trial is not about illegal dealing in shares per se, its about a company providing unlawful financial assistance for the purchase of its own shares. None of teh Maple 10 are on trial. So your second point about manipulating the market is right, but it is Anglo who are accused of the manipulation.

[muppet]

If I owned something that 'created an artificial market for the shares', as you said Sean Quinn did, I would be very worried. In fact Sean Quinn was pretty worried too, that is why he eventually went to Anglo to tell them about the CFDs. He was in big trouble, but knew that because of his CFDs - so was Anglo.

Muppet, regarding the extract above are you inferring in some way that there was something illegal in SQs CFD trades? Just to be clear, there was nt. There is a difference between creating an "artifical market" through putting out false information etc=insider trading=illegal.  What I was referring to was that SQ had potentially kept the share price artifically high through irrational demand=stupid/expensive/greedy=legal. If someone decides they are willing to pay twice what any share is worth on a whim irresepective of the underlying investment case, the price will increase. Supply and demand

The reason Sean Quinn was worried is because he had bet the farm on it, it was unravelling and he was losing a fortune.

Sean Quinn is making no "defence" as you put it. He is giving evidence, he is not on trial. The trial is not about illegal dealing in shares per se, its about a company providing unlawful financial assistance for the purchase of its own shares. None of teh Maple 10 are on trial. So your second point about manipulating the market is right, but it is Anglo who are accused of the manipulation.

I understand this. But there are other cases going on and I pray lots more to come out of it.

Quinn, one way or another, ended up part of a transaction whereby some of the protagonists are currently on trial. And I referred to Quinn's 'testimony' not defence. (I edited that before you posted, but possibly after you had read it).

The Maple 10, the Regulator, Department Officials, Sean Quinn, some of his former executives and the young Quinns are all witnesses in this trial. That is because this is the trial of the Anglo executives. You are taking a view of this in isolation, which is fair enough, but I am viewing it in an overall context.

The Quinns have been in and out of court for years now, and indeed have already seen jail time. I seriously doubt that the Quinns are finished with the courts and vice versa. Anything that comes out in this trial could effect or even trigger future cases. I suspect the DPP will be keeping a very close eye on it.

Back to Quinn. You say he blew his money but did nothing wrong. His children appear to be alleging fraud against Anglo and others. Are you aware of the letter from McCaffrey to Anglo?

[TabClear]

I assume your referring to the collateral letter? I'm only aware of what I've seen in the court reports and I'm sure that will be a key piece of evidence in future cases.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying SQ is a victim in all this (meaning the wider context of the various cases), but this case is a criminal case against the Anglo executives. Maybe it's being discussed in the wrong thread (Eurozone bailout might be more appropriate) but for whatever reason your focus seems to be on SQ rather than the actual case currently being tried?

[muppet]

I assume your referring to the collateral letter? I'm only aware of what I've seen in the court reports and I'm sure that will be a key piece of evidence in future cases.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying SQ is a victim in all this (meaning the wider context of the various cases), but this case is a criminal case against the Anglo executives. Maybe it's being discussed in the wrong thread (Eurozone bailout might be more appropriate) but for whatever reason your focus seems to be on SQ rather than the actual case currently being tried?

This is the Quinn thread and this trial, imho, will have a big say on what happens to Quinn.

I am using quotes to save me typing this again. But here is what I wrote about that letter before.

The CFD's were held by SQ not the Quinn family. SQ could have went bust, and taken certain assets with him, but not the group. The Group was only tied in when Anglo got backdated Guarnatees signed by the children without legal representation.

And Anglo didn't try to save Quinn, they were putting pressure on him to take the loans and it wasn't for his benefit- in fact they were pushing him to continue to look like a "Buyer not a Seller" of Anglo shares right up to 2008.
And this was without taking into account the fact that anglo, the government at the time & the regulator knew that Anglo's books were cooked.

They're not asking you to pay for anything. They are asking for assets back that the state have taken that they don't believe they have a right to. If I had assets taken from me by someone that I don't believe owns them, I'd be asking for them back as well regardless of whether it was a tax payer or not.

Here are a few paragraphs from Anglo Republic by Simon Carswell (page 151/152).

As Anglo's share price fell, the bank continued to supply Sean Quinn with 'working-capital' facilities to enable him to meet his margin calls. The board approved the loans, and the Financial Regulator was notified.
An internal report compiled almost two years earlier shows the rapid growth of Quinn's borrowings from the bank as the value of his investment in it fell further and further. Over a six-day period around the St. Patrick's Day massacre Quinn drew down €367.5 million - an average of €60 million a day - to meet the mounting losses on his investment, according to the Anglo report........

.......On 18 March Quinn Group Chief Executive Liam McCaffrey fired off a letter to Michael O'Sullivan, the Anglo lender who managed Quinn's account at the bank, in relation to that day's €220 million draw-down. The letter was astonishing. Writing on behalf of Quinn, McCaffrey effectively signed over potential control of the Quinn Group, a business he had built up through hard graft over a thirty-year period. In return for the latest loan, Quinn agreed to hand over the share certificates in the main company at the apex of the Quinn corporate pyramid. If covered the ownership and ultimate control of his many and varied businesses........

.....'I can confirm that as additional comfort in relation to the security on this facility the Quinn family are prepared to support their personal guarantees by giving Anglo Irish Bank Corporation plc physical custody of their shares in Quinn Group ROI Ltd,' said McCaffrey in the letter to the bank.[/b]

According to Carswell, McCaffrey appears to have offered 'additional comfort' and appears to say of the Quinns that they were 'prepared to support their personal guarantees by giving Anglo Irish.....physical custody of their shares in Quinn Group ROI Ltd'.

Here is my problem, albeit from a position of ignorance of many facts. Either the Quinn children happily and knowingly signed the personal guarantees understanding what they were doing, or they didn't. If it was the former then they will have to accept that they lost everything and be happy if that is the end of their woes. If it was the latter then, in my opinion, they should be including their father and McCaffrey in the list of defendants in their actions to get their shares back. Further to that, if they are alleging that they were somehow defrauded (are they?), then I find it hard to see how that letter doesn't take centre stage in that case.

As far as I am concerned Fitzpatrick & Quinn are two of those most responsible for forcing their nation into a bailout. And in both their cases spectacular greed, stupidity and the most incredible hubris was to blame. My very small children are likely to pay taxes on their debts.

I want to see Seanie Fitz and Sean Quinn and the others get what they deserve from the courts. Yes Fitz is the one on trial at the moment, but I am hoping this is not the last trial.